Re: [OSM-talk] This needs to be voted upon.

I also don't want to imply that a vote is imminent, just that this is such a big issue, it can not be decided by mere consensus on a mailinglist. Not everyone follows these discussions (not that everyone reads the wiki though, but again, this is a major thing). Regards, Maarten On 2020-08-10

Re: [OSM-talk] This needs to be voted upon. (was: Re: Separating all metadata from coordinates in OSM into a wikibase instance)

Even better stated, if pangoSE is interested in a longer-term goal (and, it truly must be this if anything at all) of moving OSM towards becoming a "full member of the semantic web," fairly large things must happen. 1) Linked data and "the semantic web" (which has been emerging since circa 200

Re: [OSM-talk] Separating all metadata from coordinates in OSM into a wikibase instance (Was: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM)

On 8/9/20 07:29, pangoSE wrote: > Of course this is also a big change which has to be considered carefully. > > I believe linked data is the only sane way to go forward when it comes > to metadata. [...] I think this adds a huge amount of complexity for a highly dubious benefit. I'd also vote no

Re: [OSM-talk] This needs to be voted upon. (was: Re: Separating all metadata from coordinates in OSM into a wikibase instance)

I didn't mean to convey or imply that a vote was impending, moreso that I seriously disagree with the proposal as unneeded, unnecessary, poorly explained as to its benefits, and (as was well described before, though I paraphrase), "a ready-made answer for a non-problem." My apologies if anybody

Re: [OSM-talk] This needs to be voted upon. (was: Re: Separating all metadata from coordinates in OSM into a wikibase instance)

Aug 10, 2020, 07:49 by md...@xs4all.nl: > On 2020-08-10 03:32, stevea wrote: > >> On Aug 9, 2020, at 5:29 AM, pangoSE wrote: >> >>> The discussion below spawned the following idea of migrating the whole tags >>> system instead. >>> >> (an over engineered proposal largely, as Frederick says an

[OSM-talk] This needs to be voted upon. (was: Re: Separating all metadata from coordinates in OSM into a wikibase instance)

On 2020-08-10 03:32, stevea wrote: On Aug 9, 2020, at 5:29 AM, pangoSE wrote: The discussion below spawned the following idea of migrating the whole tags system instead. (an over engineered proposal largely, as Frederick says and I agree with, goosed by the "hype of linked data.") I politely

[OSM-talk] Twitch MapRoulette session Tuesday

Hi all, I've been doing some informal Twitch streaming sessions just doing some JOSM mapping, and it was quite fun. I will do another one this Tuesday specifically about creating a MapRoulette Challenge. I will be starting at 19:00 US Mountain Time[1]. If you have an idea for a MapRoulette Cha

Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

As I read your proposal, it sounds like you have a solution but haven't defined the problem. If you could focus on the problem and describe exactly what is wrong with the current arrangement, and what will happen if we do nothing, that might help. Otherwise I can not see the merits of your proposal

Re: [OSM-talk] Separating all metadata from coordinates in OSM into a wikibase instance (Was: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM)

On Aug 9, 2020, at 5:29 AM, pangoSE wrote: > The discussion below spawned the following idea of migrating the whole tags > system instead. (an over engineered proposal largely, as Frederick says and I agree with, goosed by the "hype of linked data.") I politely vote "No." I don't see the merit

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 19:05, Imre Samu wrote: > Wikidata is a graph database .. and there is a "known" scalability problem > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikidata/2019-June/013124.html That post discusses the SPARQL front end (the "Wikidata Query Service") specifically, and not Wikidata

Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclofix project

Hi, Congratulations on a nice project and a useful one ! For a long time I have wished for a user-friendly bicycle repair specific map, including bicycle cafés. You were soliciting constructive feedback, so here is mine:  What I miss in the Cyclofix project is an easy-to find definition of how y

Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

sent from a phone > On 9. Aug 2020, at 21:16, john whelan wrote: > > And different features really are called difference things in different > countries. +1, moreover, the „same“ features are different in different countries and cultures, and it is part of our work to define when we consid

Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

sent from a phone > On 9. Aug 2020, at 21:04, pangoSE wrote: > > E.g. permanent unique ids, talk pages if we want that for every osmid, SPARQL > support, standardization benefits "riding the current ride in open data" somehow you can have this already through the integration of wikidata: ju

Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

"riding the current ride in open data" - I am confused what is the meaning of that "scripting support for botmakers" - as a bot operator and a bot author I am confused what is supposed to be missing "support for references and linking interactively to other data sources" - we have that, see wi

Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

I honestly can't see any benefit. Splitting the data into two places adds the danger of it getting out of sync. Standard naming conventions would be nice but defining the standard name is practically impossible. Compare taginfo to the map features wiki page. One problem with map features is what

Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Could you reply with your arguments in favor of the current one2one tag model system in the other thread where I listed the benefits as I see them? E.g. permanent unique ids, talk pages if we want that for every osmid, SPARQL support, standardization benefits "riding the current ride in open dat

Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

It still fails to provide even a single benefit over the current situation. Aug 9, 2020, 20:11 by pang...@riseup.net: > > > > Originalmeddelande > Från: pangoSE > Skickat: 9 augusti 2020 15:40:41 CEST > Till: talk@openstreetmap.org > Ämne: Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation

[OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Originalmeddelande Från: pangoSE Skickat: 9 augusti 2020 15:40:41 CEST Till: talk@openstreetmap.org Ämne: Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM This is another good reason to abandon this suggestion in favor of our own wikibase instance. Philip Barnes

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

some info for the planning : > Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, most of the labels /names generated/transliterated by bots .. or imported from other databases ( GeoNames !! ) > better modeled, better referenced Wikidata: The Cathedral style ...

Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclofix project

> Congratulations on a nice project and a useful one ! > For a long time I have wished for a user-friendly bicycle repair specific > map, including bicycle cafés. Thanks, us as well ;) > What I miss in the Cyclofix project is an easy-to find definition of how you > classify the nodes that are to

[OSM-talk] wat | Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

On 09.08.20 10:25, pangoSE wrote: I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag. Get rid of the “name” tag(s) in OSM? Absolutely not. It makes everything massively more complicated, there is very little benefit, and Wikidata

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

sent from a phone > On 9. Aug 2020, at 15:08, pangoSE wrote: > > To support and emphasize ground truth I think we should setup a service like > Wikimedia commons also to host verification images that proves how it looks > on the ground. I agree photos from the current on the ground situati

Re: [OSM-talk] Separating all metadata from coordinates in OSM into a wikibase instance (Was: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM)

Hi, On 8/9/20 14:29, pangoSE wrote: > I therefore suggest we create a wikibase instance called OSMData and > migrate all our tags into that system. I don't see the merit, and your idea of putting that database under CC0 is not feasible as it would amount to a license change. I think that "linked

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

On Sun, 2020-08-09 at 09:04 -0400, James wrote: > Not to mention if someone wants to add a name for a new item/object, > does the user need to create a wikidata item on top of it? Will the > editor do it automatically? How does it pick the right one? Does it > offer a list to the user? This is goin

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Hi Martin Koppenhoefer skrev: (9 augusti 2020 15:00:21 CEST) > > >sent from a phone > >> On 9. Aug 2020, at 10:44, Mateusz Konieczny via talk > wrote: >> >> tagging name tag is a fundamental part of OSM tag, >> offloading it to a third party service is a mistake that will not >happen > > >+1,

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Yes. The data could be downloaded in bulk like osmand does today and can be easily parsed. We would of course have to split it into region or country sized files just like the planet files are today but thats trivial compared to integrating seamless support in the editors. Wikidata dumps to js

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Not to mention if someone wants to add a name for a new item/object, does the user need to create a wikidata item on top of it? Will the editor do it automatically? How does it pick the right one? Does it offer a list to the user? This is going to make osm a massive turn off to new contributors on

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

sent from a phone > On 9. Aug 2020, at 10:44, Mateusz Konieczny via talk > wrote: > > tagging name tag is a fundamental part of OSM tag, > offloading it to a third party service is a mistake that will not happen +1, names are a fundamental part of OpenStreetMap, we must keep the decision

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Yeah this is probably not the best route forward, given that wikidata is so big and contains a lot of osm unrelated data. James skrev: (9 augusti 2020 14:31:57 CEST) >and if the solution is to download the data then download wikidata, >it's >even more clunky than the name tag itself > >On Sun.,

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Ok. I agree with that, there is nothing hindering OSM from hosting the wikibase instance on the same machine/cluster/whatever as the main osm database which btw. seems to lack a name. James skrev: (9 augusti 2020 14:49:36 CEST) >Network calls incur a performance hit. I didn't say it was complic

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Thanks 😀 I actually tried searching for it before posting but did not find it. I accept the statement from Lydia closing it: "I've been thinking a lot about this. The prefixes Q, P, L, F, S, E and M are there to represent the concepts of Items, Properties, Lexemes, Forms, Senses, Entity Schemas

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Network calls incur a performance hit. I didn't say it was complicated. On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 8:46 a.m. pangoSE, wrote: > > I disagree. With (permanent) unique ids is trivial and the overhead is IMO > neglible. > > Its not rocket science to query an API endpoint from any programming > language.

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

I disagree. With (permanent) unique ids is trivial and the overhead is IMO neglible. Its not rocket science to query an API endpoint from any programming language. All our data consumers are already doing this. I made a simple map in a few hours that query both overpass and wikidata based o

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

On 2020-08-09 14:33, pangoSE wrote: >> IIRC, Yuri already tried that when implementing Wikibase on our own >> wiki, and it turned out to be massively complicated, not to say not >> feasible at all. Didn't you follow that discussion back then? > > I was not aware. Link? > Its not a dealbreaker f

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

and if the solution is to download the data then download wikidata, it's even more clunky than the name tag itself On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 8:29 a.m. Jeremy Harris, wrote: > On 09/08/2020 09:25, pangoSE wrote: > > I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating > names in OSM

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Hi mmd skrev: (9 augusti 2020 13:47:43 CEST) >On 2020-08-09 13:05, pangoSE wrote: >> These are valid concerns. See my response to James. >> If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our >own >> wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/ > >Our own Wiki.openstreetmap

[OSM-talk] Separating all metadata from coordinates in OSM into a wikibase instance (Was: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM)

Hi The discussion below spawned the following idea of migrating the whole tags system instead. Remember we OSM contributors are in the "business" of generating high quality geo- AND metadata with references ideally for every single change or statement and ideally linked to other data sources a

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

On 09/08/2020 09:25, pangoSE wrote: > I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names > in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag. > Substantial changes will have to be made: > * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It > could probably be

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Not to mention the additional overhead of conflating two databases to get something essential like a name On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 7:57 a.m. Alan Mackie, wrote: > This seems like a bad idea. > > Name tags are generally very easy to verify on the ground. It is not > always as easy to tell if a shop

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

This seems like a bad idea. Name tags are generally very easy to verify on the ground. It is not always as easy to tell if a shop with a certain name belongs to a specific wikidata entry, especially in jurisdictions that are less litigious when it comes to trademarks. We also should not be doing

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

On 2020-08-09 13:05, pangoSE wrote: > These are valid concerns. See my response to James. > If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own > wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/ Our own Wiki.openstreetmap.org already has a wikibase installed. You're not prop

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

More than deprecating name=* to replace with Wikidata, it would be needed deprecating it in favour of name:=* and leaving to the client the decision of what language to render. It would partially solve the multilanguage issue... Stefano On Sun, 9 Aug 2020, 13:11 pangoSE, wrote: > These are vali

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

These are valid concerns. See my response to James. If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/ It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time. In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into wikida

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Also a valid concern worth pondering. I guess having a local snapshot of wikidata on an osm controlled server should fix that. Wikibase is free software so we can set up our own in the very unlikely case that no-one else does it. Note that both Facebook, Microsoft and Google are dependent on

[OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

This was meant for the list. Originalmeddelande Från: pangoSE Skickat: 9 augusti 2020 11:09:08 CEST Till: Mateusz Konieczny Ämne: Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM Hi Thanks for the response. Mateusz Konieczny via talk skrev: (9 augusti 2020 10:

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM mappers? or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly? Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by james2...@gmail.com: > is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist? > > On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pan

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist? On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, wrote: > I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating > names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag. > > The rationale is explained here: > https://josm.openstr

[OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #524 2020-07-28-2020-08-03

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 524, is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of a lot of things happening in the openstreetmap world: https://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/13472/ Enjoy! Did you know that you can also submit messages for the weeklyOSM? Just log i

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Aug 9, 2020, 11:09 by pang...@riseup.net: > >"there is no such thing as an international name. Names are part of a > >language whih is part of a culture. They are not GIS objects and the > >osm datamodel does not handle this complexity well at all." > >> >> > >Are you aware that we have other tag

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

On 09/08/2020 09:42, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote: Aug 9, 2020, 10:25 by pang...@riseup.net : I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag. Absolutely no. tagging name tag is a fundamen

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

This is a valid concern. What I'm suggesting to solve that is to create a new property "OpenStreetMap name" that can hold names in multiple languages and every single one can be independently referenced. Cheers Simon Poole skrev: (9 augusti 2020 10:36:34 CEST) >The "names" in wikidata are most

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

Aug 9, 2020, 10:25 by pang...@riseup.net: > I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names > in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag. > Absolutely no. tagging name tag is a fundamental  part of OSM tag, offloading it to a third party service is a mistake that will not

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

The "names" in wikidata are mostly the names of WP pages for the object in question and have little to do with actually existing names (as per the OSM definition) of places. It would be a massive drop in quality if we would do the proposed switch. Simon Am 09.08.2020 um 10:25 schrieb pangoSE: >

[OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag. The rationale is explained here: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655 This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM user will have to become