Re: F32 bind9 split dns debug

2020-11-13 Thread Tim via users
On Fri, 2020-11-13 at 13:38 -0800, Jack Craig wrote: > current named.conf > > options > { > // Put files that named is allowed to write in the data/ directory: > directory "/var/named"; // "Working" directory > dump-file

Re: Not enough swap space for hibernation

2020-11-13 Thread Samuel Sieb
On 11/13/20 9:39 PM, Tim via users wrote: On Fri, 2020-11-13 at 21:24 +0530, Sreyan Chakravarty wrote: I have no idea why this is happening when I have 8GB of free swap space : $ free -h totalusedfree shared buff/cache available Mem: 7.7Gi

Re: Swap still not activated on later kernels

2020-11-13 Thread Samuel Sieb
On 11/13/20 9:35 PM, Tim via users wrote: On Fri, 2020-11-13 at 13:16 -0500, Jonathan Billings wrote: In principle the location of a swap file’s header may be determined with the help of appropriate filesystem driver. Unfortunately, however, it requires the filesystem holding

Re: Not enough swap space for hibernation

2020-11-13 Thread Tim via users
On Fri, 2020-11-13 at 21:24 +0530, Sreyan Chakravarty wrote: > I have no idea why this is happening when I have 8GB of free swap space : > > $ free -h > totalusedfree shared buff/cache > available > Mem: 7.7Gi 1.6Gi 4.1Gi 269Mi

Re: Swap still not activated on later kernels

2020-11-13 Thread Tim via users
On Fri, 2020-11-13 at 13:16 -0500, Jonathan Billings wrote: > In principle the location of a swap file’s header may be > determined with the help of appropriate filesystem > driver. Unfortunately, however, it requires the filesystem holding > the swap file to be mounted, and if

Grub2 Boot Menu Hidden in Fedora 33

2020-11-13 Thread Stephen Morris
In Fedora 32 issuing the command sudo grub2-editenv - unset auto_hide_menu would enable the display of the grub boot menu. This does not work in Fedora 33. I did find some details on the net on how to get the menu to display on the next boot, but that was not a permanent solution. In Fedora

Re: unable to access localhost

2020-11-13 Thread Geoffrey Leach
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 14:56:53 -0800 Samuel Sieb wrote: > On 11/13/20 2:51 PM, Geoffrey Leach wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 14:21:21 -0800 > > Samuel Sieb wrote: > >> Do you have a smtp server running? > >> What does "lsof -i tcp:25" show? > > > > root@webster[7]->lsof -i tcp:25 > >

Re: Gedit and no geometry?

2020-11-13 Thread ToddAndMargo via users
On 2020-11-13 16:25, ToddAndMargo via users wrote: On 2020-11-13 16:00, ToddAndMargo via users wrote: On 2020-11-13 15:04, Samuel Sieb wrote: On 11/13/20 2:48 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote: Looking at uboboo's man page for gedit, it has a --geometry command line switch;

Re: Swap still not activated on later kernels

2020-11-13 Thread Chris Murphy
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 5:41 AM Sreyan Chakravarty wrote: > 1) Why doesn't fallocate work anymore ? Fallocate is the preferred way to do this, e.g. fallocate -l 8G swapfile > 2) I trieddd if=/dev/zero of=/fedora.swap bs=1 count=0 seek=8G > > This did not work. swapon complained about

Re: Gedit and no geometry?

2020-11-13 Thread ToddAndMargo via users
On 2020-11-13 16:00, ToddAndMargo via users wrote: On 2020-11-13 15:04, Samuel Sieb wrote: On 11/13/20 2:48 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote: Looking at uboboo's man page for gedit, it has a --geometry command line switch; http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/xenial/en/man1/gedit.1.html But

Re: Gedit and no geometry?

2020-11-13 Thread ToddAndMargo via users
On 2020-11-13 15:04, Samuel Sieb wrote: On 11/13/20 2:48 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote: Looking at uboboo's man page for gedit, it has a --geometry command line switch; http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/xenial/en/man1/gedit.1.html But our's does not. Are we way out of date? No, that

Re: systemd-resolved breakage

2020-11-13 Thread Sam Varshavchik
Petr Menšík writes: Am I missing something? Yes, system is being shoved down your gullet, whether you like it or not. would NetworkManager.conf: dns=default Write resolv.conf again? Can I make it rewrite after disabling systemd-resolved? Why doesn't it restore /etc/resolv.conf on

Re: Gedit and no geometry?

2020-11-13 Thread Andy Paterson via users
I recall —geometry is handled by an X-windows library function & is common to most X based apps So when this (or any other app) used Xlib there are various command line arguments (argv[]) that are handled by the X regardless of the app > On 13 Nov 2020, at 22:49, ToddAndMargo via users >

Re: Gedit and no geometry?

2020-11-13 Thread Samuel Sieb
On 11/13/20 2:48 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote: Looking at uboboo's man page for gedit, it has a --geometry command line switch; http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/xenial/en/man1/gedit.1.html But our's does not. Are we way out of date? No, that page is. You were looking at the page

Re: unable to access localhost

2020-11-13 Thread Samuel Sieb
On 11/13/20 2:51 PM, Geoffrey Leach wrote: On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 14:21:21 -0800 Samuel Sieb wrote: Do you have a smtp server running? What does "lsof -i tcp:25" show? root@webster[7]->lsof -i tcp:25 root@webster[8]-> Source of the problem? A service needs restarting? Which service? That

Re: unable to access localhost

2020-11-13 Thread Geoffrey Leach
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 14:21:21 -0800 Samuel Sieb wrote: > On 11/13/20 1:57 PM, Geoffrey Leach wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 16:13:35 -0500 > > Jonathan Billings wrote: > > > >> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 01:05:46PM -0800, Geoffrey Leach wrote: > >>> > >>> System is running up-to-date Fedora

Gedit and no geometry?

2020-11-13 Thread ToddAndMargo via users
Hi All, Looking at uboboo's man page for gedit, it has a --geometry command line switch; http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/xenial/en/man1/gedit.1.html But our's does not. Are we way out of date? Do we have test editor with a geometry switch? -T

Re: unable to access localhost

2020-11-13 Thread Samuel Sieb
On 11/13/20 1:57 PM, Geoffrey Leach wrote: On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 16:13:35 -0500 Jonathan Billings wrote: On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 01:05:46PM -0800, Geoffrey Leach wrote: System is running up-to-date Fedora 32. root@webster[3]->mailx -v -v -s test ge...@hughes.net I don't believe Fedora

Re: How can I use GNOME even after I uninstalled it ?

2020-11-13 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
On Fri, 2020-11-13 at 22:32 +0530, Sreyan Chakravarty wrote: > How would I download all the KDE packages and set it up ? Would it > happen > automatically ? sudo dnf group install KDE poc ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To

Re: unable to access localhost

2020-11-13 Thread Geoffrey Leach
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 16:13:35 -0500 Jonathan Billings wrote: > On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 01:05:46PM -0800, Geoffrey Leach wrote: > > > > System is running up-to-date Fedora 32. > > > > root@webster[3]->mailx -v -v -s test ge...@hughes.net > Null message body; hope that's ok > >

Re: ps2eps

2020-11-13 Thread None via users
Sent from ProtonMail, encrypted email based in Switzerland. ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Friday, November 13, 2020 11:13 AM, Patrick Dupre wrote: > Hello, > > Has the package ps2eps been removed from the distribution? > What is the alternative? > > Thanks > >

Re: F32 bind9 split dns debug

2020-11-13 Thread Jack Craig
first, a hearty Thanks for your responses to date. I have tried to apply the suggested changes, but it's not changed the initial behaviour. so i am still missing something... additional suggestions. i am going to look at host, who,w hois, nslookup for more info, thx, jackc...

Re: unable to access localhost

2020-11-13 Thread Jonathan Billings
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 01:05:46PM -0800, Geoffrey Leach wrote: > > System is running up-to-date Fedora 32. > > root@webster[3]->mailx -v -v -s test ge...@hughes.net Null message body; hope that's ok > ge...@hughes.net... Connecting to [127.0.0.1] via relay... > ge...@hughes.net... Deferred:

unable to access localhost

2020-11-13 Thread Geoffrey Leach
System is running up-to-date Fedora 32. root@webster[3]->mailx -v -v -s test ge...@hughes.net ping 127.0.0.1 PING 127.0.0.1 (127.0.0.1) 56(84) bytes of data. 64 bytes from 127.0.0.1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.080 ms 64 bytes from 127.0.0.1: icmp_seq=2 ttl=64 time=0.086 ms 64 bytes from

Re: bugzilla.gnome.org is closing

2020-11-13 Thread ToddAndMargo via users
On 2020-11-13 12:41, Jonathan Billings wrote: On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 01:17:23PM -0700, Joe Zeff wrote: On 11/13/20 12:32 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote: I just got a notification that bugzilla.gnome.org is being replaced by gitlab.gnome.org and that they are starting over. Well, that's

Re: bugzilla.gnome.org is closing

2020-11-13 Thread Jonathan Billings
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 01:17:23PM -0700, Joe Zeff wrote: > > On 11/13/20 12:32 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote: > > > > I just got a notification that bugzilla.gnome.org > > is being replaced by gitlab.gnome.org and that > > they are starting over. > > Well, that's one way of getting rid of

Re: bugzilla.gnome.org is closing

2020-11-13 Thread ToddAndMargo via users
On 2020-11-13 12:17, Joe Zeff wrote: On 11/13/20 12:32 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote: I just got a notification that bugzilla.gnome.org is being replaced by gitlab.gnome.org and that they are starting over. Well, that's one way of getting rid of all the bugs they don't want to work on.

Re: bugzilla.gnome.org is closing

2020-11-13 Thread Joe Zeff
On 11/13/20 12:32 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote: I just got a notification that bugzilla.gnome.org is being replaced by gitlab.gnome.org and that they are starting over. Well, that's one way of getting rid of all the bugs they don't want to work on.

Re: Swap still not activated on later kernels

2020-11-13 Thread Samuel Sieb
On 11/13/20 2:18 AM, Sreyan Chakravarty wrote: $ blkid /fedora.swap (No Output) This means that you didn't use "mkswap" to format the file as swap. ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to

bugzilla.gnome.org is closing

2020-11-13 Thread ToddAndMargo via users
Hi All, I just got a notification that bugzilla.gnome.org is being replaced by gitlab.gnome.org and that they are starting over. -T ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to

Re: Need help with rsync

2020-11-13 Thread ToddAndMargo via users
On 2020-11-13 00:37, Cameron Simpson wrote: On 12Nov2020 20:38, ToddAndMargo wrote: But the question still arises, why did the command stop pruning after it found the bad link? It still updated. Rsync does that. I think it's just caution. The delete phase is sort of separate (runs last by

Re: Swap still not activated on later kernels

2020-11-13 Thread Bob Marcan
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 13:16:05 -0500 Jonathan Billings wrote: > > 2) Use an application that will bmap the swap file with the help > of the FIBMAP ioctl and determine the location of the file’s swap > header, as the offset, in units, from the beginning of > the partition which

Re: Swap still not activated on later kernels

2020-11-13 Thread Jonathan Billings
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 05:44:57PM +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > It's been years since I did this so things may have changed (I don't > use hibernation as it doesn't work with GPU passthrough for VMs), but > in my notes it says to add the UUID of the swap device to the command > line in

Re: How can I use GNOME even after I uninstalled it ?

2020-11-13 Thread Jonathan Billings
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:32:16PM +0530, Sreyan Chakravarty wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:17 PM Jonathan Billings > wrote: > > > If you have Fedora Workstation installed, you have the > > 'fedora-release-workstation' package installed, which has > > 'fedora-release-identity-workstation'

Re: Swap still not activated on later kernels

2020-11-13 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan
On Fri, 2020-11-13 at 20:22 +0530, Sreyan Chakravarty wrote: > $  systemctl hibernate > Failed to hibernate system via logind: Not enough swap space for > hibernation > > I don't understand why after having 8GB of free swap space, I am > still > unable to hibernate ? > > Is this an SELinux issue

Re: systemd-resolved breakage

2020-11-13 Thread Tom H
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 3:17 PM Petr Menšík wrote: > > Sad thing is, I want Network Manager to write my resolv.conf as it > did before. I just want systemd-resolved disabled and keep simple > text file in /etc/resolv.conf. > > I haven't found automatic way to recover my system, after I do: >

Re: ps2eps

2020-11-13 Thread Jerry James
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:14 AM Patrick Dupre wrote: > Has the package ps2eps been removed from the distribution? On a Fedora 33 machine: $ dnf repoquery -f /usr/bin/ps2eps texlive-ps2eps-7:20200327-16.fc33.x86_64 -- Jerry James http://www.jamezone.org/

ps2eps

2020-11-13 Thread Patrick Dupre
Hello, Has the package ps2eps been removed from the distribution? What is the alternative? Thanks === Patrick DUPRÉ | | email: pdu...@gmx.com Laboratoire interdisciplinaire Carnot de

Re: How can I use GNOME even after I uninstalled it ?

2020-11-13 Thread Sreyan Chakravarty
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:17 PM Jonathan Billings wrote: > If you have Fedora Workstation installed, you have the > 'fedora-release-workstation' package installed, which has > 'fedora-release-identity-workstation' as a requirement. You'd need to > swap it out for fedora-release-kde, which you

Re: How can I use GNOME even after I uninstalled it ?

2020-11-13 Thread Jonathan Billings
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:05:44PM +0530, Sreyan Chakravarty wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:02 PM Jonathan Billings > wrote: > > > If you are using Fedora Workstation, you can't. gnome-shell is a > > protected package, and the definition of that is defined by the > >

Re: systemd-resolved breakage

2020-11-13 Thread Tom H
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 2:22 PM Tom Horsley wrote: > systemctl stop systemd-resolvd > systemctl disable systemd-resolvd resolved > Edit /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf And in the [main] > section stick this: > > [main] > dns=none Since "/etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf" is

Re: How can I use GNOME even after I uninstalled it ?

2020-11-13 Thread Sreyan Chakravarty
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:02 PM Jonathan Billings wrote: > If you are using Fedora Workstation, you can't. gnome-shell is a > protected package, and the definition of that is defined by the > fedora-release-identity-workstation package. > > Sorry for my ignorance but what are protected

Re: How can I use GNOME even after I uninstalled it ?

2020-11-13 Thread Jonathan Billings
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 09:52:47PM +0530, Sreyan Chakravarty wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:47 PM Jonathan Billings > wrote: > > > > > You are seeing gnome-shell launched as part of the gnome-session > > package, which are probably both installed. > > > > 'dnf remove @gnome-desktop'

Re: How can I use GNOME even after I uninstalled it ?

2020-11-13 Thread Sreyan Chakravarty
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:47 PM Jonathan Billings wrote: > > You are seeing gnome-shell launched as part of the gnome-session > package, which are probably both installed. > > 'dnf remove @gnome-desktop' doesn't remove gnome-session or > gnome-shell packages. Group remove only removes packages

Re: How can I use GNOME even after I uninstalled it ?

2020-11-13 Thread Jonathan Billings
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 09:35:38PM +0530, Sreyan Chakravarty wrote: > > Hi, > > I have shifted to KDE from GNOME in Fedora using : > > dnf install @kde-desktop > > and uninstalled GNOME using: > > dnf remove @gnome-desktop > > Now common sense says that I should not be able to use GNOME any

How can I use GNOME even after I uninstalled it ?

2020-11-13 Thread Sreyan Chakravarty
Hi, I have shifted to KDE from GNOME in Fedora using : dnf install @kde-desktop and uninstalled GNOME using: dnf remove @gnome-desktop Now common sense says that I should not be able to use GNOME any more. *But,* *I can seemingly log into GNOME from SDDM. * The option still works, how ??

Re: Not enough swap space for hibernation

2020-11-13 Thread Sreyan Chakravarty
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 9:29 PM Jonathan Billings wrote: > I believe that using a swap *file* for hibernation requires special > steps, as described here: > > https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/power/swsusp-and-swap-files.html > > I believe you need to add the kernel parameters to make it

Re: Not enough swap space for hibernation

2020-11-13 Thread Jonathan Billings
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 09:24:52PM +0530, Sreyan Chakravarty wrote: > > Hi, > > I have just upgraded to the new 5.8 kernel on Fedora 32. > > I have also configured my swap as a swap file of 8GB. > > But when I try to hibernate using the following command: > > $ systemctl hibernate > Failed to

Not enough swap space for hibernation

2020-11-13 Thread Sreyan Chakravarty
Hi, I have just upgraded to the new 5.8 kernel on Fedora 32. I have also configured my swap as a swap file of 8GB. But when I try to hibernate using the following command: $ systemctl hibernate Failed to hibernate system via logind: Not enough swap space for hibernation I have no idea why

Re: Swap still not activated on later kernels

2020-11-13 Thread Sreyan Chakravarty
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 6:28 PM Sreyan Chakravarty wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 3:58 PM Ed Greshko wrote: > >> Looking at https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=256614 and the >> URL's contained within >> it seems doing a >> >> dd if=/dev/zero of=/fedora.swap bs=1M count=2048

Re: systemd-resolved breakage

2020-11-13 Thread Petr Menšík
Sad thing is, I want Network Manager to write my resolv.conf as it did before. I just want systemd-resolved disabled and keep simple text file in /etc/resolv.conf. I haven't found automatic way to recover my system, after I do: systemctl disable --now systemd-resolved It keep broken

Re: F32 bind9 split dns debug

2020-11-13 Thread Petr Menšík
Hi Jack, On 11/13/20 8:02 AM, Jack Craig wrote: > hi all, > any dns pros in the house?? > > i am trying to debug a split view dns. > i am using F32 & bind9 where i have internal & external views. > > internal network 10.0.0.0/24, external 108.220.213.120/29 > > what i think i am seeing is a

Re: F32 bind9 split dns debug

2020-11-13 Thread Tim via users
Jack Craig: >>> listen-on port 53 { localhost; }; >>> listen-on-v6 port 53 { any; }; Tim: >> Unless I missed something, elsewhere, your IPv4 connections can only >> come from localhost. Jack Craig: > i am sure i am the one missing something. you are suggesting listen > on external ip? >

Re: systemd-resolved breakage

2020-11-13 Thread Tom Horsley
(Relatively) simple fix: systemctl stop systemd-resolvd systemctl disable systemd-resolvd Edit /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf And in the [main] section stick this: [main] dns=none Now rm -f /etc/resolv.conf Now create your own /etc/resolv.conf file from scratch with the nameserver

Re: Swap still not activated on later kernels

2020-11-13 Thread Sreyan Chakravarty
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 3:58 PM Ed Greshko wrote: > Looking at https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=256614 and the > URL's contained within > it seems doing a > > dd if=/dev/zero of=/fedora.swap bs=1M count=2048 status=progress > > may cure the w(hole) issue. :-) > > Also weirdly my 8GB

Re: Swap still not activated on later kernels

2020-11-13 Thread Sreyan Chakravarty
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 4:00 PM Ed Greshko wrote: > > Looking at https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=256614 and the > URL's contained within > > it seems doing a > > > > dd if=/dev/zero of=/fedora.swap bs=1M count=2048 status=progress > > > > may cure the w(hole) issue. :-) > > > >

systemd-resolved breakage

2020-11-13 Thread Sam Varshavchik
I was surprised that a dig www.unicode.org a was coming back with a SERVFAIL. I have bind running on the same server, so I thought it just had a hiccup. Just to be sure I haven't fat-fingered anything and accidentally set dns lookups to go to another dns server on the network, I did an

Re: Recommendations for video-conferencing setup

2020-11-13 Thread George N. White III
On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 at 23:55, Tim via users wrote: > On Thu, 2020-11-12 at 13:42 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > > There's an Android app call Droidcam (non-free) which has a Linux > > download. Might be worth checking out. > > I never got anywhere trying that out. Dunno if it simply

Re: Swap still not activated on later kernels

2020-11-13 Thread Ed Greshko
On 13/11/2020 18:27, Ed Greshko wrote: On 13/11/2020 18:18, Sreyan Chakravarty wrote: On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 12:31 PM Samuel Sieb mailto:sam...@sieb.net>> wrote:     What do "ls -lh /fedora.swap", "du -h /fedora.swap", and "blkid     /fedora.swap" show? This is the requested data: $ ls

Re: F32 bind9 split dns debug

2020-11-13 Thread Jack Craig
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 1:55 AM Tim via users wrote: > On Thu, 2020-11-12 at 23:02 -0800, Jack Craig wrote: > > listen-on port 53 { localhost; }; > > listen-on-v6 port 53 { any; }; > > Unless I missed something, elsewhere, your IPv4 connections can only > come from localhost. > i am sure i

Re: Swap still not activated on later kernels

2020-11-13 Thread Ed Greshko
On 13/11/2020 18:18, Sreyan Chakravarty wrote: On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 12:31 PM Samuel Sieb mailto:sam...@sieb.net>> wrote: What do "ls -lh /fedora.swap", "du -h /fedora.swap", and "blkid /fedora.swap" show? This is the requested data: $ ls -lh /fedora.swap -rw---. 1 root root

Re: Swap still not activated on later kernels

2020-11-13 Thread Sreyan Chakravarty
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 12:31 PM Samuel Sieb wrote: > What do "ls -lh /fedora.swap", "du -h /fedora.swap", and "blkid > /fedora.swap" show? > This is the requested data: $ ls -lh /fedora.swap -rw---. 1 root root 8.0G Nov 13 15:36 /fedora.swap $ du -h /fedora.swap 8.1G/fedora.swap $

Re: F32 bind9 split dns debug

2020-11-13 Thread Tim via users
On Thu, 2020-11-12 at 23:02 -0800, Jack Craig wrote: > listen-on port 53 { localhost; }; > listen-on-v6 port 53 { any; }; Unless I missed something, elsewhere, your IPv4 connections can only come from localhost. -- uname -rsvp Linux 3.10.0-1127.19.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue Aug 25 17:23:54

Re: Recommendations for video-conferencing setup

2020-11-13 Thread Tim via users
Tim (re droidcam): >> I never got anywhere trying that out. Dunno if it simply doesn't >> work, or secure boot made it impossible to load the module. Samuel Sieb: > You would either have to disable secure boot I tried that. > or add the signing key to the system store. I couldn't figure out