ent contemporary technique - tutored with the
help of these books/ms and professional musicians.
rgds
M.
--- On Sat, 20/11/10, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc:
e more to do with
minimising the use of ledger lines. But there is still a lot about it
which puzzles me.
Monica
wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Fri
Martyn
I will reply to your messages late - off the list if you have no objection.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 9:21 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrin
2010 19:35
To: Martyn Hodgson
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
I can't summarize it in a single sentence but I hope I can explain
briefly.
I think the reason for including alfabeto in these song books is
because
they were
not intended to be
accompanied in the same
/10, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 17:28
Dear Monica,
>
> You write: 'I think you
the 5-course guitar which is where it always
ends up.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Vihuelalist" ; "Lex Eisenhardt"
; "Monica Hall"
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:51 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's e
You haven't anwered my questions. I will repeat them.
Which Leading Musicologists nowadays treat which songs as dance-repertoire?
Even songs by Rontani connected with the
Florentine school? How could you dance
to Caldi sospiri? Which songs are you referring to? I have even found a
version of C
You asked me what I thought of Alexander Dean's views, to which I answered
quite seriously.
I think you could have explained it using simpler, more direct language
rather than using wordy acaemicspeak..
My goodness. Apparently you have not understood a word of it. As you seem to
have missed
Dear Stewart
> To this I would ask, why is that guitarists in the 17th century chose
to
> string their guitars without bourdons? By doing that, they
drastically
> reduce the overall range of the instrument, and different courses end
up
> duplicating each other by sounding
' and deveoped some proficiency. In any event these songs are not
Rossini coloratura arias
.
Martyn
--- On Fri, 19/11/10, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To: "Lex Eisenhardt"
Cc: "Vihuelalist&q
Sanseverino's six (dance-) songs are accompaniments to well-known
melodies.
Actually, I checked them this morning. Leading Musicologists nowadays
treat such repertoire as dance-songs.
Which Leading Musicologists? Even songs by Rontani connected with the
Florentine school? How could you d
Of Monica Hall
Sent: 19 November 2010 12:18
To: Stewart McCoy
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Triads were not new in the 17th century. They had certainly been
around
a lot earlier than that, and were pretty well established by the 15th
century. Composers like Du
My understanding was that inversions were against the rules until the Middle
Baroque.
RT
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Vihuela List" ; "Stewart McCoy"
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 9:21 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini
Indeed, the Platonic chord..
--- On Fri, 19/11/10, Chris Despopoulos
wrote:
From: Chris Despopoulos
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To: "Stewart McCoy" , "Vihuela List"
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 14:01
h.edu
[mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Monica Hall
Sent: 19 November 2010 12:18
To: Stewart McCoy
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
> Triads were not new in the 17th century. They had certainly been
around
> a lot ea
Sent: 19 November 2010 12:18
To: Stewart McCoy
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
> Triads were not new in the 17th century. They had certainly been
around
> a lot earlier than that, and were pretty well established by the 15th
> century. C
money to devote time to the
'arts' and deveoped some proficiency. In any event these songs are not
Rossini coloratura arias
.
Martyn
--- On Fri, 19/11/10, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To: &quo
To answer Martyn's question I can only summarize my position:
I think that it is possible that players ('amateurs' or not) have left out
the fifth course in certain occasions.
No more no less
To which I should add however:
that I suppose there have individually different approaches and differe
I'll let Lex do that first.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: [1]Martyn Hodgson
To: [2]Vihuelalist ; [3]Lex Eisenhardt ; [4]Monica Hall
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Lex,
Wel
Them's my sentiments too!!!
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Vihuela List" ; "Stewart McCoy"
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 8:42 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Stewart,
As you'
Sanseverino's six (dance-) songs are accompaniments to well-known
melodies.
Obviously you haven't seen them. (They are not the same songs included in
the 1620 edition). They are songs which were currently in the repertoire at
the time - Rontani's Caldi sospiri to name but one. This had apppe
Thanks much...
In practice, I'm moving slowly back in time. I will have to come to
grips with the Renaissance sooner or later, in terms of understanding
and practice. Well, that's the goal, at any rate. You open great
areas to explore. In fact, I'm confronted with choosing which
st
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Our ready ear is very much influenced/spoiled by functional harmony,
I'm afraid. I suppose it went wrong so often (then) because the
trick
of finding the appropriate harmonies was to add 'middle voices' to a
bass and sopra
The shift had taken place by then. I don't know if you have seen the 1622
edition of Sanseverino's guitar book
but it includes six songs with what are in effect written out guitar
accompaniments. It gives you a clear idea of how he expected the songs
to
be accompanied.
Sanseverino's six (da
/11/10, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 9:49
Dear Martyn,
you wrote:
> However, I don't think this is quite the same as sayin
Dear Martyn,
you wrote:
> However, I don't think this is quite the same as saying, as I
think Lex
does, that players (even the amateurs at which the tablatures are
often
aimed) would have routinely (perhaps even always) sought to avoid
inversions by selecti
printed under his alfabeto.
Best wishes,
Stewart.
-Original Message-
From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Monica Hall
Sent: 17 November 2010 17:14
To: Lex Eisenhardt
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdam
I think you are mistaken here because throughout the 16th century general
practice was to add contrapuntal parts to a tenor voice. The shift to
working from the bass took place at the beginning of the 17th century.
So how about songs from the 1620s and 30s?
The shift had taken place by then.
I think you are mistaken here because throughout the 16th century general
practice was to add contrapuntal parts to a tenor voice. The shift to
working from the bass took place at the beginning of the 17th century.
So how about songs from the 1620s and 30s?
Underlying this discussion is th
That is not true. Renaissance bass patterns certainly predate 17th century.
RT
- Original Message -
From: "Monica Hall"
To: "Lex Eisenhardt"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 12:13 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evide
30s. I would prefer to take in account that an experienced
theorbist-guitarist would perhaps have tried to expand the system of
alfabeto from within.
There was no need for them to expand the system of alfabeto from within.
The experienced theorbist-guitarist could use lute tablature for this
Our ready ear is very much influenced/spoiled by functional harmony,
I'm afraid. I suppose it went wrong so often (then) because the trick
of finding the appropriate harmonies was to add 'middle voices' to a
bass and soprano.
I think you are mistaken here because throughout the 16th cent
010 9:42:03 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Martyn,
> You write '.how can you find the chords to a song if you have
no
idea of counterpoint and voice-leading at all...' . Surely this is
why
a such a basically simple chordal instrum
Dear Martyn,
> You write '.how can you find the chords to a song if you have no
idea of counterpoint and voice-leading at all...' . Surely this is why
a such a basically simple chordal instrument is so popular even today -
once you've mastered a few chords and have a reasonable
down maybe. And Morelli, supposedly
a 'professional' of sorts often gets the harmonisations 'wrong'
rgds
M.
--- On Wed, 17/11/10, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To: "Vihuela
While Sanseverino tells us better not to use the guitar for plucking (in
1620, when alfabeto was the standard notation) we can suppose that he heard
players doing that.
Alfabeto is a form of shorthand. You can't
have a system of shorthand which everyone interprets as they wish.
Chord not
First things first. I have had time to look at the first 6 Landi songs
a bit more more closely and they are far more complex than they seem at
first sight.
Different clefs are used for the bass part as well as the vocal part and in
different combinations and the clefs sometimes change within a s
However, Sanseverino tells not to play in lute style because the guitar
would be deprived of its harmony. So it should not be plucked, but
played with full strokes. What exactly are 'botte piene'? I would say
that also the strummed chords of alfabeto falso, or those in tablature
on
to unaccompanied violin works than pieces for
lute: generally we have single note melodies/decorated passages
punctuated by chords rather than part writing.
M.
M
--- On Mon, 15/11/10, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's eviden
at you get. Nor is the cake.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010
, November 15, 2010 5:12 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Indeed - he is also having his cake and eating it
M
--- On Mon, 15/11/10, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
I agree with all that. 3-point counterpoint is just a way of describing
it. 3-part harmony perhaps. I mean a passage which is meant to be in 3
parts. You are not supposed to include the open courses except the ones he
has indicated.
4- course guitar music is full of 6/4 chords - the eq
Indeed - he is also having his cake and eating it
M
--- On Mon, 15/11/10, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 14:03
A P.S.
Well, I agree that unless there's compelling reasons against we should
generally play the full 5 courses of the alfabeto chord given even when
it gives a theoretical inversion. As we've discussed before, a
strummed 5 course guitar gives a sort of platonic model of a chord with
no
A P.S.
Valdambrini's second book also includes some instructions on accompanying a
bass line. There are a small number of places in these (on p.30) where he
has written out chords in tablature and these would reproduce the bass line
as written if there were bourdons - but not if the re-entran
Yes. But this is not partial strumming in the sense which I am referring
to. It is a passage in 3-part counterpoint which is intended to be
strummed. The are passages like this in Foscarini and Corbetta.
What is being suggested is that we should partially strum 5-part chords
although the
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