Ummhumm. You tend to be stodgy too Travis. I said SMALL AREAS WITH FAST FIRES. Any time you or anyone else wants to hand me the hemlock for corrupting the youth is fine. I'll only need a minute or two. On Aug 8, 2016 8:38 PM, "Travis Mack, SET" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think the point they have all been making is that not everything fits > into your areas of experience. Yes, I have seen paint booths in excess of > 2000 sq ft. So, the design area per EH2 (.4/2000 with reduction based on > use of high temp sprinklers) would not encompass the entire area of the > paint booth. Therefore, your idea of using sprinklers outside of their > listing and the prescriptives of NFPA 13 could be quite bad judgment. It > could also ruin a person financially if it went real bad, not counting > other possible scenarios that could play out. > > This forum is a great educational tool as well as a great way to bounce > ideas between colleagues. We have to remember that there are some people > new in the industry that may see posts by a frequent poster and think he > knows more and has more experience than he actually does. They may then > take this as the correct approach, when it is quite obviously not the > correct approach. > > By sticking to the guidelines of NFPA 13 where they are very clearly black > and white, we are best able to defend our actions. NFPA 13 is not a > perfect document. But, it does provide us with definite guidelines and > legislated criteria we can follow. > > If you want to get into performance based design and become the > responsible engineer of record on the projects you are involved in, then > more power to you. However, as most of this board is comprised of those at > the technician level - including yourself - we do not have that luxury. As > such, we do our best to follow the published standards and best practices > of the industry. > > Back to the original question, I have frequently seen these installed as > pendent sprinklers in the horizontal position. I also frequently see them > on flex hose assemblies to aid in the inspection process. > > Travis Mack, SET > MFP Design, LLC > 2508 E Lodgepole Drive > Gilbert, AZ 85298480-505-9271 > fax: 866-430-6107email:[email protected] > http://www.mfpdesign.comhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack > > On 8/8/2016 6:25 PM, Brad Casterline wrote: > > I don't know Ron. The closest I have come to that is the foam pop-up > nozzles for protecting the B2 Stealths at Whitman AFB a couple hours drive > from where I grew up. > It was pretty harry but the normal stuff surrounding it all was fairly > standard. > On Aug 8, 2016 8:14 PM, "rongreenman ." <[email protected]> wrote: > >> How about the spray booth for a 747 Brad? Or a B-52? >> >> On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Show me a spray booth with forty sprinklers Steve >>> On Aug 8, 2016 7:36 PM, "Steve Leyton" <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Sure. And fires that can be spread by running fuel such as plastics >>>> and FCL’s (not to mention BLEVE’s) can set off 40 standard response >>>> sprinklers in a minute. I can only imagine the sheer volume of responding >>>> sprinklers and skipping that could occur based on how smooth or bumpy the >>>> roof/ceiling assembly is if you started wantonly plugging QR control-mode >>>> sprinklers into EH fires. (On paper) MDD = .80 ADD = .275 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My opinion only, >>>> >>>> Steve L. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces >>>> @lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Brad Casterline >>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2016 5:17 PM >>>> *To:* [email protected] >>>> *Subject:* Re: Paint spray application >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Shakey ground is all i have ever known Ken. >>>> I am no more a professional than you are. >>>> THINK MAN! >>>> small spaces with fast fires need the fastest acting sprinklers we can >>>> muster. >>>> I've been in court myself a couple times- neither one over sprinklers >>>> though-- >>>> please stop being so stodgy! >>>> >>>> On Aug 8, 2016 7:05 PM, "Parsley Consulting" <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I don't know, Brad. You're standing on pretty shaky ground there. >>>> >>>> The decision to use QR sprinklers in an extra hazard occpuancy is a >>>> direct contradiction to 8.4.1.1.2 of NFPA 13, including the 2016 edition, >>>> or a similar section number, at least as far back as the 1999 edition. If >>>> you install QR sprinklers in a space that is legitimately classed as an >>>> extra hazard occupancy, aren't you directly contradicting this particular >>>> section of NFPA 13? The handbook provides the following explanatory text >>>> on the topic: >>>> >>>> Extra hazard occupancies are characterized by the probability of >>>> fast-developing fires with high heat release rates that have the potential >>>> to open a large number of quick-response sprinklers before the sprinklers >>>> have time to control the fire. The operation of a large number of >>>> sprinklers in a relatively short time period has the potential to overtax >>>> the system. For this reason, quick-response sprinklers using the area >>>> design method of Chapter 11 are not permitted for the protection of >>>> extra hazard occupancies. Additional perspective on this can be found in >>>> the discussion of safety margin found in B.2.1. >>>> >>>> Further, I'm not aware of any QR sprinkler which has been tested and >>>> listed by an NRTL for use in protecting extra hazard occupancies. Barring >>>> that, to follow the guidance you're suggesting the >>>> contractor/designer/installer has to violate both NFPA 13 AND the listing >>>> of the sprinkler. I'm not suggesting the gloom and doom drama of "people >>>> could die", however it does concern me greatly when I read suggestions to >>>> ignore both texts. >>>> >>>> My thought about that is to make sure your insurance is paid up, and >>>> have a good lawyer on retainer. I don't know of a good defense while >>>> sitting in the witness chair to a question similar to, "Are you telling me >>>> you ignored the applicable law and the manufacturer's recommendations for >>>> the installation of that sprinkler?" >>>> >>>> When I have nightmares I think about having to answer questions similar >>>> to that. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Ken Wagoner, SET Parsley Consulting 350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206 >>>> Escondido, California 92025 Phone 760-745-6181 <760-745-6181> Visit our >>>> website <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> * >>>> >>>> >>>> On 08/08/2016 4:17 PM, Brad Casterline wrote: >>>> >>>> We're not suppose to use QR in EH either but I say balderdash. >>>> That is for big open spaces beacase you could have a bunch of heads >>>> going off way over there when the emergency is way over here. Small spaces >>>> with fast fires are better off if you use low temp qr and calc every head >>>> possible going off >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-f >>>> iresprinkler.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-f >>>> iresprinkler.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-f >>> iresprinkler.org >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Ron Greenman >> >> 4110 Olson Dr., NW >> Gig Harbor, WA 98335 >> >> [email protected] >> >> 253.576.9700 >> >> The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner >> Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera >> director (1942-) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum- >> firesprinkler.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing > [email protected]http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > >
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