I think the point they have all been making is that not everything fits
into your areas of experience. Yes, I have seen paint booths in excess
of 2000 sq ft. So, the design area per EH2 (.4/2000 with reduction
based on use of high temp sprinklers) would not encompass the entire
area of the paint booth. Therefore, your idea of using sprinklers
outside of their listing and the prescriptives of NFPA 13 could be quite
bad judgment. It could also ruin a person financially if it went real
bad, not counting other possible scenarios that could play out.
This forum is a great educational tool as well as a great way to bounce
ideas between colleagues. We have to remember that there are some
people new in the industry that may see posts by a frequent poster and
think he knows more and has more experience than he actually does. They
may then take this as the correct approach, when it is quite obviously
not the correct approach.
By sticking to the guidelines of NFPA 13 where they are very clearly
black and white, we are best able to defend our actions. NFPA 13 is not
a perfect document. But, it does provide us with definite guidelines
and legislated criteria we can follow.
If you want to get into performance based design and become the
responsible engineer of record on the projects you are involved in, then
more power to you. However, as most of this board is comprised of those
at the technician level - including yourself - we do not have that
luxury. As such, we do our best to follow the published standards and
best practices of the industry.
Back to the original question, I have frequently seen these installed as
pendent sprinklers in the horizontal position. I also frequently see
them on flex hose assemblies to aid in the inspection process.
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:[email protected]
http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
On 8/8/2016 6:25 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:
I don't know Ron. The closest I have come to that is the foam pop-up
nozzles for protecting the B2 Stealths at Whitman AFB a couple hours
drive from where I grew up.
It was pretty harry but the normal stuff surrounding it all was fairly
standard.
On Aug 8, 2016 8:14 PM, "rongreenman ." <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
How about the spray booth for a 747 Brad? Or a B-52?
On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Brad Casterline
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Show me a spray booth with forty sprinklers Steve
On Aug 8, 2016 7:36 PM, "Steve Leyton"
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Sure. And fires that can be spread by running fuel such as
plastics and FCL’s (not to mention BLEVE’s) can set off 40
standard response sprinklers in a minute. I can only
imagine the sheer volume of responding sprinklers and
skipping that could occur based on how smooth or bumpy the
roof/ceiling assembly is if you started wantonly plugging
QR control-mode sprinklers into EH fires. (On paper) MDD =
.80 ADD = .275
My opinion only,
Steve L.
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>]
*On Behalf Of *Brad Casterline
*Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2016 5:17 PM
*To:* [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: Paint spray application
Shakey ground is all i have ever known Ken.
I am no more a professional than you are.
THINK MAN!
small spaces with fast fires need the fastest acting
sprinklers we can muster.
I've been in court myself a couple times- neither one over
sprinklers though--
please stop being so stodgy!
On Aug 8, 2016 7:05 PM, "Parsley Consulting"
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I don't know, Brad. You're standing on pretty shaky
ground there.
The decision to use QR sprinklers in an extra hazard
occpuancy is a direct contradiction to 8.4.1.1.2 of NFPA
13, including the 2016 edition, or a similar section
number, at least as far back as the 1999 edition. If you
install QR sprinklers in a space that is legitimately
classed as an extra hazard occupancy, aren't you directly
contradicting this particular section of NFPA 13? The
handbook provides the following explanatory text on the topic:
Extra hazard occupancies are characterized by the
probability of fast-developing fires with high heat
release rates that have the potential to open a large
number of quick-response sprinklers before the sprinklers
have time to control the fire. The operation of a large
number of sprinklers in a relatively short time period has
the potential to overtax the system. For this reason,
quick-response sprinklers using the area
design method of Chapter 11 are not permitted for the
protection of extra hazard occupancies. Additional
perspective on this can be found in the discussion of
safety margin found in B.2.1.
Further, I'm not aware of any QR sprinkler which has been
tested and listed by an NRTL for use in protecting extra
hazard occupancies. Barring that, to follow the guidance
you're suggesting the contractor/designer/installer has to
violate both NFPA 13 AND the listing of the sprinkler.
I'm not suggesting the gloom and doom drama of "people
could die", however it does concern me greatly when I read
suggestions to ignore both texts.
My thought about that is to make sure your insurance is
paid up, and have a good lawyer on retainer. I don't know
of a good defense while sitting in the witness chair to a
question similar to, "Are you telling me you ignored the
applicable law and the manufacturer's recommendations for
the installation of that sprinkler?"
When I have nightmares I think about having to answer
questions similar to that.
*Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206
Escondido, California 92025
Phone 760-745-6181 <tel:760-745-6181>
Visit our website <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> *
On 08/08/2016 4:17 PM, Brad Casterline wrote:
We're not suppose to use QR in EH either but I say
balderdash.
That is for big open spaces beacase you could have a
bunch of heads going off way over there when the
emergency is way over here. Small spaces with fast
fires are better off if you use low temp qr and calc
every head possible going off
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--
Ron Greenman
4110 Olson Dr., NW
Gig Harbor, WA 98335
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
253.576.9700 <tel:253.576.9700>
The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man.
-Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and
opera director (1942-)
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