Thanks for the feedback Hans, Hans Bergsten wrote: > Absolutely. If you have experience with a real programming language, > learning Java in itself is a lot of work. Learning servlets, JDBC, > and at least a basic idea about multithreading issues on top of that > is just too much. And some people are not even interested in becoming > programmers; they just want to provide a simple web interface to an > existing database, with no bells and whistles.
I see and would agree if you are not a Java developer then these tags would be handy, however, I was asking assuming everyone using the JSTL had at least some Java experience. JSP encourages this especially with the scripting elements. How often would you say someone using JSP does not understand Java but would use JSP because they can use the JSTL. Also would you say these people are not responsible for said existing database, they are just required to use it? > Most of my customers call themselves non-programmers but have managed > to develop really nice, fairly complex web applications using the > product, with just a little bit of hand-holding on my part. Great, this is exactly the type of information I am looking for. Now where would you say these users fit in with the larger picture of JSP web development. Obviously they are not die-hard J2EE programmers, but would you say that they are the majority of JSP users? Or would you say most developers interested in using JSP/Servlets would better be directed to learn the Java aspect of the technologies, in a few cases as an experienced J2EE developer you can analyze a case and suggest the JSP/JSTL for use with it? > If you're not a programmers, it's definitely easier to learn how to > use JSTL than to write the equivalent logic in Java. If you already > know Java, I agree that it's mostly a "different" approach. But even > though I know Java, I tend to use just JSP and JSTL for simple sites; > for me, it's simply faster and easier. Great, more of what I'm after. Could you clarify a little on what you would consider 'simple sites', or does the quick comment you gave two e-mails ago sum it up completely? > Like I said earlier, some people don't want to become programmers and > build complex web applications where the advantages of using pure > Java code in servlets, beans, and other component types shines. If > you try to force them by making "the right way" the only way, they > will just use other technology where they have a choice. Besides, > as should be clear by now, I don't subscribe to the idea that MVC > with a servlet controller is "the right way" for all applications and > situations. Agreed. In general, would you agree that people attempting to seriously use Servlets and JSP as Java programmers should be directed to learning MVC? Even if it is not always the best solution but the majority of the time it will reap good benefits. >> I have a hard time believing this would ever occur. Certainly if you >> have to train developers the what and how of MVC then it would take >> more time, but if the skillset exists certainly not. > > Not sure what you refer to by "this", but using MVC even for a pure > JSP app is a good idea and not too hard to learn. They just have to > read my book :-) "this" meant a developer understanding MVC and using a pure JSP/Servlets app. The answer you gave was the type of information I was trying to get your opinion on, thanks. > Again, you assume that there's someone around that knows Java; that's > not always the case. The import action is basically a more powerful > version of the standard include action, sporting features that makes > it play better with JSTL (supports EL attributes, well-defined error > handling so the catch action can be used the deal with errors). If > you don't use the XML actions, it's still useful for including pieces > of common content. Assuming someone is around that does know Java, would you say the the action is helpful? E.G. someone who read your book aspiring to be a superb J2EE developer. Would you suggest they use the import action? I do agree if no Java experience is around then the import does get the job done well. >> What is a good use for the redirect tag? > > I often use it in a Controller page to redirect to a result View page > so that a reload of the result page doesn't invoke the Controller page > again, as it would if I used forward. I have also used it on a site > that tracks the number of times people clicks on the links for > external sites; the link goes to a Controller page that increments > a counter and then redirects to the requested site. So this is assuming you are using something similar to MVC, but the controller component is a JSP. Certainly works. Would you suggest this approach for use in general? Personally I would not because I think it takes away a lot of the benefits you get from using Java. A web app is tied to Java and something like an MVC control component usually requires much more complex functionality then something the JSP/JSTL actions readily provide. Do you use a JSP control component as a starting point for a web app then migrate to a Servlet or Filter should more functionality be required? Cheers, Jayson Falkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
