Sure. Kids however do not use OSM and maps and routing. So what should OSM do for it’s users ?
> On Apr 3, 2020, at 11:43, James <james2...@gmail.com> wrote: > > For example: Toronto has a bylaw if you are over 14 years old, you are not > allowed to ride bike ever on sidewalk, if you are 14 and under and feel > unsafe on road, you are allowed > > At a certain point you need to use your judgement and know local laws > > On Fri., Apr. 3, 2020, 11:37 a.m. Justin Tracey, <j3tra...@gmail.com > <mailto:j3tra...@gmail.com>> wrote: > I was assuming cyclists can figure out a turn indication onto a sidewalk > should instead be interpreted as onto the adjacent street; maybe that's more > difficult than I'd assumed. > > The Region of Waterloo allows bicycles on sidewalks in some situations, but I > believe at least most of the constituent cities in it do not. In any case, > it's certainly not provincial law for Ontario. > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 3:16 PM Martin Chalifoux <martin.chalif...@icloud.com > <mailto:martin.chalif...@icloud.com>> wrote: > When you follow a route with a riding app, you get turn prompts that are then > incorrect because a sidewalk is selected rather than the street. The route is > not just a line on a map, it becomes a set of turn-by-turn directions > eventually. > > What cities allow cycling on sidewalks anyway, seriously ? This sounds so > inadequate. That it is tolerated is one thing, but outright legal or > encouraged ? Makes no sense to me. > >> On Apr 3, 2020, at 11:11, Justin Tracey <j3tra...@gmail.com >> <mailto:j3tra...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> iD leaves all access tags undefined for sidewalks by default, what you're >> seeing are the implied values (specifically, highway=footway implies >> motor_vehicle=no, but does not make any implication about bicycle=*; scroll >> down to the raw tags and you'll see both are left undefined). The reason >> sidewalks cannot imply bicycle=no is that's not true in all legal >> jurisdictions. The question is then whether routing engines should take >> legal jurisdiction into account when deciding the default value for >> bicycle=*, the way they do for maxspeed=*. The problem is that maxspeed=* >> has defaults on a uniform provincial granularity, but bicycle=* has an >> arbitrary granularity (any particular sidewalk could be subject to federal, >> provincial, regional, or city laws). >> >> Personally, my approach has been noting when routing engines are taking >> advantage of sidewalks they shouldn't be able to, and tagging those. Most >> sidewalks run parallel to roads, and I assume cyclists/data consumers know >> the respective rules they should be following, even if the routing engine >> doesn't. >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 2:51 PM Martin Chalifoux via Talk-ca >> <talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org>> wrote: >> Maybe the issue is that in ID and I assume that is the Canadian default >> value, the bicycle access tag is left undefined. Why isn’t that tag >> defaulted to no as it is for cars ? Then an explicit yes tag can be added >> only to the odd place where cycling on a sidewalk is allowed. We are talking >> routing engines here, not the kid that plays on the street. >> >>> On Apr 3, 2020, at 10:46, Nate Wessel <bike...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:bike...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Which routing engines are causing problems exactly? Routing a bicycle on a >>> sidewalk may be appropriate/reasonable in some cases and over short >>> distances where one could be instructed to dismount and walk. I'd be >>> interested to see some of the problematic routes that are being suggested >>> to see if there isn't a more elegant way of resolving this. >>> >>> I personally only use explicit access tags where there is clear signage >>> indicating some type of special access restriction. Otherwise the default >>> should be assumed. Routing engines should be able to accommodate region >>> differences in default values without needing to manually tag millions of >>> ways. Whether they can or do allow that is a problem for the people >>> developing the routing engines. >>> >>> Nate Wessel, PhD >>> Planner, Cartographer, Transport Nerd >>> NateWessel.com <https://www.natewessel.com/> >>> On 2020-04-03 10:39 a.m., John Whelan wrote: >>>> I'd recommend bicycle=no and I live in Ottawa. In Ottawa footpaths that >>>> connect in general are bicycle=yes as they come under municipal regulation >>>> but a sidewalk on a highway comes under provincial legislation which bans >>>> bicycles on sidewalks. Sparks street is fun I think you are not permitted >>>> to ride your bicycle but I'm unsure if this is provincial, municipal or it >>>> might even be NCC which is federal of course. >>>> >>>> In the UK they are banned by law but in certain cities the Chief Constable >>>> has stated the law will not be enforced within the police force boundaries >>>> as a letter of interpretation. It might be nice for Ottawa to do the same >>>> sometime but there again we have City of Ottawa police, OPP, RCMP and of >>>> course the PPS. >>>> >>>> Cheerio John >>>> >>>> James wrote on 2020-04-03 10:25 AM: >>>>> I don't think it's more tagging for the renderer as much as it's being >>>>> more specific(more data) to specify a abstract view: without knowledge of >>>>> Canadian/Provincial/Municipal laws about biking on sidewalks. >>>>> >>>>> I think Montreal and Gatineau are more enforced as Ottawa it is illegal >>>>> to bike on the sidewalk, but people are still doing it, but that's beside >>>>> the point. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri., Apr. 3, 2020, 10:18 a.m. Pierre-Léo Bourbonnais via Talk-ca, >>>>> <talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org>> wrote: >>>>> Hi! >>>>> >>>>> I would like to start a discussion on how we should deal with sidewalks >>>>> tagged separately, like it is is done in downtown Ottawa and like we are >>>>> starting to do in the Montreal region. >>>>> >>>>> The issue is that by default highway=footway with or without >>>>> footway=sidewalk should have an implicit bicycle=no by default according >>>>> to this page: >>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access_restrictions >>>>> >>>>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access_restrictions> >>>>> >>>>> However, some osm users told me I should tag them with bicycle=no >>>>> everywhere because routing engines use sidewalks for bicycle routing >>>>> which is illegal in most part of Canada. >>>>> >>>>> What are your thoughts on this ? Should we adapt to routing engines or >>>>> should routing engines fix the issue themselves? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Talk-ca mailing list >>>>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org> >>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca >>>>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Talk-ca mailing list >>>>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org> >>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca >>>>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sent from Postbox <https://www.postbox-inc.com/> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Talk-ca mailing list >>>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org> >>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca >>>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Talk-ca mailing list >>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org> >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca >>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Talk-ca mailing list >> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca >> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca> > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-ca mailing list > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca>
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