DAVEH:
While baptism in itself will not save anybody, I firmly believe without
baptism, one cannot be saved. (Mk 16:16 and Jn 3:5)C'mon Dave:Read
Luke. Start at 19:2 and read down to 19:9. You will find a
little fellow that was saved with no mention of baptism. Same with
the thief on the cross. Baptism is an act of obedience that any true
Christian will want to perform as soon as he or she is saved, but to make
it a requirement for salvation prior to salvation would be saying you are
saved by your own works rather than showing that you are the recipient
of God's mercy.Keep searching, my friend. The truth is in the Book.
DAVEH: Terry......with all
due respect, I quoted you the truth about the thief on the cross some 6
months ago. At that time you did not indicate that I was wrong with
my logical explanation, but you are not repeating the same argument.
So, I will quote what I said to you before. If you feel my explanation
is wrong, please tell me where I've misunderstood what the Bible said about
it.......
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Terry Clifton wrote:
> Dave H:
>
> The verses you quote do indeed speak of water
baptism. Baptism is an act of
> obedience that is awfully hard to perform without
water. As to whether you
> can be saved without it, I suggest you read
about zaccheus
DAVEH: Do you suppose the 'salvation' Jesus
referred to coming to Zacchaeus' house (Lk 19:9) might refer to the
author of salvation (Jesus) abiding at his house (Lk 19:5)? Furthermore,
that Zacchaeus had sufficient faith to be a 'son of Abraham' might suggest
that he had enough faith to be baptized, even though it is not mentioned
by Luke. I would be most surprised if Jesus (who commanded baptism)
would not think to mention it to Zacchaeus. That it is not specifically
mentioned by Luke does not mean that it did not transpire.
> and the thief on
> the cross, both of which would seem to punch
holes in your argument,
DAVEH: I've discussed this in TT several
times before, Terry. But it was prior to your joining, so I'll happily
discuss it with you too.
> receiving salvation
DAVEH: You are reading into Scripture what
is not there, Terry. What makes you think the thief was saved?
While no claim of salvation is made by Scripture, many folks make that
mistaken assumption based on the comment that Jesus made that he (Jesus)
would see him (the thief) in paradise.
Contrary to popular opinion
Terry, paradise is not a part of heaven, but rather a part of the spirit
world. One does not enter heaven until after the judgment, which
for most will happen sometime in the future.
The reason we know the thief
did not go directly to heaven is
because Jesus told him........
"........Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt
thou be with me in
paradise." (Lk 23:43)
..........Now, where did Jesus go that day (which
was Friday)? We know
it was not heaven, because 2 days later he said
to
Mary........
"......Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended
to my Father:......" (Jn
20:17)
.......So Terry, since Jesus had not yet returned
to his Father until
Sunday (after he met Mary), then it follows that
he spent the
previous day or so NOT in heaven. That
brings up the question of where
was he? I have quoted this verse before,
but will do so
again.......
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins,
the just for the unjust,
that he might bring us to God, being put to death
in the flesh,
but quickened by the Spirit: By which also
he went and preached unto
the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient,
when
once the long-suffering of God waited in the
days of Noah, while the ark
was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight
souls were saved
by water." (1Pet 3:18-20)
.......And, what was he doing there?........
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also
to them that are dead,
that they might be judged according to men in
the flesh, but
live according to God in the spirit." (1Pet
4:6)
........So, it seems reasonable to conclude that
paradise is not in
heaven, but a part (with spirit prison) of the
spirit world where
Jesus taught the gospel to those who had not
yet heard it. This gives
evidence of several things.....
1. Spirits exist after death and prior to
being resurrected.
2. The gospel can be taught to those who
have previously died.
3. Those spirits have free agency to accept
the gospel.
4. The reason the gospel is taught in the
spirit world, is that the
spirits who have not had the opportunity to hear
the gospel while
alive would hear it in the spirit world so that
they could be judged as
though they were still in the flesh, but return
to heaven.
5. The spirit world is comprised of a paradise
and a spirit prison.
6. And finally, the thief was not necessarily
"saved" merely because Jesus said he would meet him in paradise.
> with no mention of even a drop of water.
DAVEH: Perhaps he was one of those who were
baptized for the dead as mentioned by Paul in 1Cor 15:29! :-)
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