[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Dave, you write:DAVEH: I realize that I will probably never understand it as you do, Judy. I believe (due to my LDS perspective) I am thinking a few steps beyond what your theology has allowed your mind to perceive. In my opinion, God does not do things without reason. In Biblical times, the reasons God did incomprehensible things were known as mysteries. IMHO, mysteries are what the gospel is supposed to explain.DAVEH: The point I'm trying to make (and find out why Protestants believe as they do), is that God could have created us and the world that way (devoid of the problems) from Day 1. Yet for some reason, he allowed sin to enter into the equation. Let me ask you, Judy.....do you believe God could have prevented Satan from tempting Eve (and us) and then we all could have lived in 'paradise'? I assume you do. Then let me ask another related question.......why did God prevent Adam/Eve from partaking of the fruit on the tree of life?
jt: You don't seem to get it Dave because you are trying to rationalize and make God into some image you have and I don't know that you will ever coming to an understanding this way,
The reasons for what he has done with regard to our existence and our testing far exceed the ability of mainstream religions to explain it. It's the old baby/milk/meat thing. There is little point in dumping more information into ones paradigm than what it can withstand. (I'm not sure I worded that quite right.....hope you understand what I'm trying to say.) I believe that is why Christianity evolved as it did throughout the Bible times. The Hebrews had trouble staying focused on their "one God", so trying to dump the whole gospel plan in their lap would have only led to a lot of confusion. Their religion had to develop a little at a time, at a pace they could handle. And.....at times, they couldn't even handle that. I believe the closer we get to the 'end', the more the Lord will reveal to us, and the less mysteries will confuse those who have the gospel truth.
Jesus said that we would have to believe first and then we would know regarding the doctrine, that is whether or not it is so....DAVEH: But not to the point where he eliminates any temptation to do otherwise. That alone should make one wonder what reason there be for opposition.I wrote: I don't know if you have ever studied Covenant Dave. God is a God of Covenant and Satan's treachery is used to test them. God tests everything He creates.
DAVEH: I'm not sure that makes sense....Why would that be necessary for a God who knows the outcome prior to the test?
jt: It may not make sense to the 'carnal mind' but that's the way it is. He allowed false prophets to test Israel and He allows all kinds of things today. It is up to us to make the right choices, to choose the narrow road that leads to life. Yes, He's aware from the start, it's us who need to see that we miss the mark.
DAVEH: Wouldn't it just be simpler if he tossed his faulty creations into the flaming pit without putting them through the testing phase? Or better yet, why not just NOT make 'defective' people?
jt: It may be simpler but it wouldn't be love which is God's nature. He is not willing that any should perish and desires that all come to the knowledge of Truth.
Paul writes to the church at Thessalonica that God Himself will send strong delusion to those who do not love the Truth so that they may believe the lie.DAVEH: That seems to contradict what you said above, "God Himself will send strong delusion to those who do not love the Truth" Judy, unless I don't understand what you are trying to convey.DAVEH: That almost sounds pervese. Would a parent be considered 'good' if they were to continually put temptations in front of their children?
jt: God can not be tempted with evil, neither does He tempt any man.
We are tempted when we are drawn aside after our own lust.DAVEH: Do you think that is why Eve disobeyed......for lust?
Anyone who wants to can seek after and know the truth. Problem is many do not want to and we will be responsible for our choices in life.DAVEH: Ahhhhhhhh........again, for what purpose? Do you think there may be a relation between why parents let their kids fail and why God does similar? What I have trouble understanding is why a lot of Protestants think God is going to punitively torture his children who fail to make the grade, so to speak. Would you purposefully torture your children if one of them failed to obey you? I can't imagine any 'normal' parent doing to their children what they perceive God will do to us if we fail to accept/believe his Son. And.....that applies even to those who never have the chance to hear his Son's name, let alone hear the gospel message. To me, that is very peculiar and 'unChristian'.DAVEH: Normally, parents try to shield their children from the bad things in the world. Yet you are making it sound like God is going to extremes to 'encourage' his children to fail.
jt: At some point parents must allow their children to sink or swim.
DAVEH: This makes me think that Protestants believe God enjoys punitively punishing his creations by torturing them in the lake of fire. (We've had a few discussions about this prior to your joining TT, Judy.)DAVEH: Yes.....I have heard a lot that struck me as pretty 'dumb'. Maybe that is unfair, because I suspect you too have some of those beliefs that I find incredulous. (They seem to be the tap root of Christianity, both Protestant and RCC.) It boils down to CRY (Jesus) or FRY, if I can be blunt about it. I brought up this topic a couple years ago when somebody left a "THE BURNING HELL" tract on the window of my car one night at a restaurant. I keep it right above my computer, and just took another peek at it. It continues......THOUSANDS OF DEGREES HOT ..... AND NOT A DROP OF WATER. TORTURED SOULS LOST BURNING FOREVER. And, that is just on the cover with a ghoulish picture of some folks' faces melting in the heat.jt: I have no idea what you've heard and shudder to think in light of what has recently transpired with regard to street preaching in SLC.
Anyway......I found that pamphlet to be rather curious. To me, it doesn't sound like the way the Lord would try to persuade his sheep to follow him. It seemed more like a pretty gruesome scare tactic by somebody who lacks the love of Christ. Naturally, not many TTers agreed with me!
I would have to agree with your perspective toward such antics.DAVEH: Thank you. I appreciate you saying that. I just hope you don't receive too much ill will for making such a statement in agreement with an old Mormon boy. Simply posting respectful comments on TT in reply to Mormons can bring unfavorable comments from some. Speaking your heart as you just did may bring harsh criticism. I hope not though.
I keep hearing about Jesus in the temple and Elijah on Mount Carmel but these people are not walking in the Spirit and power of Jesus or Elijah. I wrote: Do you really find Mormonism logical?DAVEH: Very much so. That is why I am so curious about Protestant theology, as I don't see a logical pattern in it. Yet so many folks seem to think it is logical, so I'm trying to find out why they believe as they do so I can understand how they perceive its logical progression.
jt: I'm not surprised to hear that because the deceiver has been busy for the past 2,000 and there are more than 400 different doctrines all claiming to be 'Truth'
- and this is why it is imperitive for those desiring to know and serve the Lord to understand the scriptures for themselves. I've been doing our families genealogy and used to visit the local FHC so I have met a lot of very nice Mormon ppl but I don't find the belief system logical by any stretchDAVEH: Have you studied it from our perspective? If you've only heard it from the Protestant perspective, you are probably right......it wouldn't sound logical.
because the writings of Joseph Smith et al conflict with the clear Word of Truth which is scripture.DAVEH: Many times have I heard that on TT. I will repeat myself......I do not believe it contradicts Scripture. It only contradicts what you think (or have been taught) Scripture says. (Hmmmmm......I think I've just answered a comment from a previous post!)
Have you thought about this?DAVEH: Nobody has made that claim.DAVEH: I don't see that conflict at all. What it does conflict with is the common perception many Protestants think about what the Lord says in the Bible. Let me give you an example. JS taught that baptism is necessary for salvation. All the Protestants I've discussed this with say that it is not. However, there were Christians in Biblcal times that believed it was a necessity, as evidenced by 1Cor 15:29. Yet Protestants seem to ignore this passage. When I mention it on TT, some go to extremes to suggest that those Primitive Christians who were baptizing for the dead were heretical and wrong to do so. I find that rather curious, considering Paul saw fit not to criticize their actions.
jt: Paul did not baptize for the dead and neither did any other apostle that I am aware of
and only the rcc place such an emphasis on baptism. They claim that one can be saved by baptism into their system. The scriptures actually teach baptism is a sign confirming the spiritual work of grace that has been done already in the person's heart.DAVEH: That's part of it......But not the whole story. The Bible teaches much more, but it has been suppressed to make a 'simpler' theology work for many more people. While baptism in itself will not save anybody, I firmly believe without baptism, one cannot be saved. (Mk 16:16 and Jn 3:5)
DAVEH: At 8 I didn't know much about theology at all, despite having attended a Protestant church in my youth.So Judy, to answer your last question........YES, I've thought about it a lot. Much of what JS taught does seem logical, while much of what I hear from Protestants seems illogical. But of course, I am highly biased.jt: At 8yrs old you were not ready to evaluate and so you apparently accepted what you were taught as truth.
DAVEH: ??? I'm not quite sure what instance you are referring to, but none the less......I don't know why angels appearing to people is a problem for you or anybody else. It happened Biblically, did it not? If so, why cannot it happen in our time?However, the incident JS had with the angel Moroni does not stand the test
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. The BoM is that sealed book prophesied by Isaiah. (Is 29:11-18)and the book of Mormon along with the other two books are 'another gospel'
DAVEH: I'm not sure why you think such, though you are right......I've heard it many times on TT. FTR......My Jesus died for me that I will live again. That is one very important part of salvation.....to overcome physical death. He also atoned for my sins IF I availeth myself to him and endure to the end.......THEN I will "achieve" full salvation. Now understand this, Judy. That I have to take some steps by myself to reach that point where I can return to heaven, it is something I canNOT do myself alone. It is only by virtue of our Lord's grace that I have the opportunity to reach the full potential for which God has foreordained me to obtain. I hope that helps you understand my belief a bit better. (And, I hope I haven't confused you with my explanation!)and the LDS Jesus is 'another Jesus'
DAVEH: <VBG>......just a few times......but then I'm probably repeating what you have heard already.
--Judy
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Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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