I'm not as convinced as you are that such a system would be so
complicated to implement. For example, I've known of trial software on
the PC that stopped working when the date/time was altered. You may be
right though. I'm not familiar with the App Store code, nor have I read
up on this or heard an Apple developer speak to it. These are smart
guys, who know their code pretty well, I wouldn't assume it was such a
daunting task without running it by them first and bringing the request
to them and Apple. Who knows what sharp guys could come up with after
some serious brain storming.
I'm not sure why you're bringing up shareware, which isn't what we're
talking about here. Shareware is where you distribute completely
functional code and then encourage people who find it useful to pay for
it. I agree this is usually done by small shops, and I agree it hasn't
seemed to have been a very successful business model.
We're talking about trial software or demos which may have a short shelf
life or limited functionality. Programs which need a key to continue
working past a certain date or unlock the rest of the functionality.
It's true that a lot of small companies use this, but so do a lot of
large companies as well. New PC's are full of trial software from
companies like Symantec and Microsoft. It's true they have to deal with
piracy, but I don't think this is because they offer trials of their
software. Allowing trials of software may pose a risk of piracy, but I
would think that the closed nature of the iPhone would still make it
easier for Apple to mitigate piracy than what you see on other platforms.
I would never say that blind people are mostly honest and would never
pirate software or take advantage of such a system. Blind people are
people too, and that means they're just as good and just as bad.
I'm not sure I or anyone else said that the desires of the blindness
community are the only factors that need to be considered. Obviously,
Apple needs to look at cost, profitability, ease of use by sighted users
and so on. It does no one any good if undo demands are made on Apple
that drive them out of business.
Remember that this is just one possible solution to an issue that's been
raised. Other ideas have also been suggested. Instead of arguing over
the implementations ourselves and trying to figure out what is and isn't
possible, let's bring our requests, ideas and suggestions to Apple and
let the experts on the internals of the platform figure out what can and
cannot be implemented. I've worked with computers long enough, both as a
user and an engineer, to know that what may seem impossible today can
show up in the market tomorrow.
On 08/04/2013 11:23 PM, David Chittenden wrote:
Hello,
You completely missed my point about implementation of such a system, not to
mention the extreme complexities involved in coding it. Also, You completely
glossed over the fact that Shareware is the only model where this is typically
done. Shareware usually comes from small start-ups which are still trying to
get their names out, and by hobbyists. Successful companies usually do not use
shareware for reasons of piracy.
Shareware programs can, and are, cracked so people can use them without paying
for them. Companies and developers which make and sell shareware do not earn
very much money from the shareware because it is so easily and readily cracked.
So, let's consider Apple App Store with such a distribution method. If you
never jailbreak your iOS device, the system will probably work decently well,
except that a good hacker may be able to open the app's shell and tinker with
its timing factor. If the app cannot receive the accurate time from the phone,
it can always believe it is still in the 24 hour free trial time. I knew a
person back in the US who did this with all his trial programs on his Mac. He
was a low paid movie producer, but liked Adobe's editing, so he cracked adobe
video editor to use it without paying the several hundred dollar licensing fee
/ purchase price.
If you jailbreak your iPhone, the jailbreak community would quickly develop an
app that would enfold any App Store app and constantly show the time/date stamp
which makes the app believe it is still in its trial phase. To do this, no app
would need to be hacked, just intercept the day/time query from the app and
send back the original day of download. This is a basic program I could
probably write with just a little bit of study.
And, before you say blind people are mostly honest and would never do such a
thing, even if true, and I would question such an assertion, we are less than
0.5% of the population, and probably less than that of the percent of people
who use iPhones and iPhone apps. These, and other similar questions must be
answered to developers' satisfaction before developers would feel secure in
agreeing to such a scheme with significant possibility of piracy and abuse.
In other words, our desires are not the only factors that need to be considered.
David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone
On 05/08/2013, at 11:33, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't think this is very analogous. When you purchase a meal, it's to enjoy
it that one dining experience. If you don't like the food then you can
complain. You may or may not get some consideration on the bill, and this has
nothing to do with blindness.
When you purchase an app, it's generally to use it for a while, and not just
one time. Plenty of companies and apps have very successful business models
where you can download an application, try it for a week or a month and then
purchase it or it stops working. This is not a new concept, and as David has
said, could be implemented in the App Store with in app purchases.
Finally, enjoying the taste of a meal and the dining experience has nothing to
do with sight or blindness, and is pretty trivial when compared to the needed
accessibility to use an app.
On 08/04/2013 06:20 PM, Joanne Chua wrote:
Hi,
This arguement reminds me of something along the line of...
lets go to the restarant, lets order some food, eat it, then decide if
you like the food or not to determine if you pay for the food or not.
Reason? well, because i'm blind, i have the rights to taste the food. If
it is not suiting my taste, i'll decide not too pay...
Joanne Shuang Chua
Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
Send from my iPad
On 05/08/2013, at 8:42, Maria and Joe Chapman <bubbygirl1...@gmail.com
<mailto:bubbygirl1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi. I was thinking more along the lines of the app could be
downloaded and is fully functional for a day unless you purchase a key
on the mac or do an in app purchase on the iphone. Some apps can be
rather expensive, I would not be willing to buy a 10 or 20 dollar app
I could not use and probably wouldn't unless I had heard it was at
least usable in some way with voice over. How many apps I wonder are
not discovered to be accessible because people are afraid to buy them
in case they are not usable?
regards
Maria and crew from australia
email:
bubbygirl1...@gmail.com <mailto:bubbygirl1...@gmail.com>
check out
www.95-the-mix.com <http://www.95-the-mix.com>
where we play lots of great music
On 05/08/2013, at 9:01 AM, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com
<mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I would rather not give Apple complete access to my phone just so
they can occasionally check to ensure I am not pirating apps.
David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone
On 05/08/2013, at 10:41, Maria and Joe Chapman
<bubbygirl1...@gmail.com <mailto:bubbygirl1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
HI. wouldn't it work better if all apps could be downloaded for
free and trialled say for a day? There are lots of apps I'd love to
try but am hesitant to download due to the fact that there is really
no way to tell if they are accessible or not unless someone on list
or someone on applevis has tried them. I mean if it's a 99 c app
it's not that bad but if it's 5 or 10 bucks? That's going to get
expensive.
Warm regards and blessings
Maria, Joe and FurBabies
Email: iMessage:bubbygirl1...@gmail.com <http://gmail.com/>
On 03/08/2013, at 6:02 PM, Arnold Schmidt <arno...@mindspring.com
<mailto:arno...@mindspring.com>> wrote:
As I state in another message, I would be much more willing to
support a general refund policy, such as Google has, or at least
use to have, rather than an it won't work with VoiceOver policy.
That is just too open to abuse. Besides, a general refund policy
would be an even better way to let developers know if people didn't
like their app, a bunch of them all requested refunds. It might
even improve accessibility.
Arnold Schmidt
----- Original Message -----
*From:*Cara Quinn <mailto:modelc...@gmail.com>
*To:*viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>
*Sent:*Saturday, August 03, 2013 2:58 AM
*Subject:*Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support
regarding app refund
Sieghard and All,
Let me encourage you and actually everyone on this list to
write Apple Accessibility to request that there be reasonable
accommodation in place for VoiceOver users to receive app
refunds in cases like Sieghard's. I'd also suggest that
Sieghard's note be attached to your own.
I believe this issue needs to be brought into the forefront in
a positive and decisive way. We are almost 2000 people on this
list and this is a very good opportunity to make this point heard.
This discussion has come up before of being alerted of VO
accessibility ahead of time in the App Store and though we've
not come to a set conclusion on the best way to do this, having
some indication that an app has been found to be accessible to
some degree with VoiceOver before we purchase it is a
completely reasonable request. If this is not possible, then it
is more than reasonable to ask for refunds if we cannot use an
app which is not accessible to us with the available Apple
universal access paradigm.
the email address for Apple Accessibility is:
accessibil...@apple.com <mailto:accessibil...@apple.com>
These are very caring people so please keep this in mind when
you write. I've known some of them personally. They want to
help though there may not be a clear way of making this happen
just yet. Just let them know this is important though. Make
your voice heard in a friendly way. they will listen to you
even if they do not know the best answer yet. :)
Thanks All, for your time.
Sincerely,
Cara :)
On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:09 PM, Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca
<mailto:siegh...@live.ca>> wrote:
Hello List,
Requesting a refund for an app which turns out not to work with
Voiceover has come up a few times and the iTunes Store support
email has been posted in connection with that. So I thought I
post my recent experience with contacting iTunes Store support
via their email.
I had bought a couple of package tracking apps in order to find
out which one I liked best. I have been using Track This which
is awesome, but I am in Canada and for some reason they don’t
support Purolator and CanPar which are both major carriers
here. I contacted Track This support twice and never received a
reply.
Anyhow, back to iTunes Store support. I provided all the
information including order numbers, purchase date, my Apple Id
etc. I explained how I really enjoyed my iPhone and the
fantastic accessibility, but that unfortunately these two apps
I purchased were not voiceover friendly and there was no Light
version offered which I could have tried first. I also
mentioned that I contacted both developers and after almost a
week had not received a reply. In short, I was friendly,
explained everything and even waited to see if the developers
would reply to see if they were willing to make Voiceover
improvements.
I received a prompt reply in which the agent explained that all
app sales are final, but that given the situation they would
refund me the $6.72 or whatever it was for the 2 apps. However,
she also continued to give me links as to their terms and
conditions and said that this was a one-time curtocy and that
in the future they could not provide any more refunds and that
it was up to me to make sure I didn’t turn on one-click
ordering and accidently purchase apps or read the app
description to be sure it was what I wanted. It was strange
because all of this gave me the impression this person did not
at all get the point about Voiceover and all that, but on the
other hand she said they would give me a refund given the
situation. According to what she said I should see the refund
back on my account within 48 hours and since both apps were
purchased using store credit it would come back as store
credit. This is now 2 weeks ago and I replied twice to the
initial message to explain that I still had not received the
credit and I am getting no more replies.
I guess what I want to say here is that those who have done
this and received refunds are lucky, but it appears one should
definitely not count on getting a refund even if an app turns
out not to work with Voiceover. I certainly will not buy an app
again thinking I might as well try it because if it doesn’t
work I can always ask for a refund.
Regards,
Sieghard
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