Harry, you need to examine the situation as a chemical problem. The
protons are normally in the metal lattice as H+ ions. These would go
into the gap ONLY if Gibbs energy were created. In other words, the
protons MUST be in a lower energy state in the gap compared to the
lattice for them to move into the gap. Once in the gap, the protons
are held there by this bonding energy. The bonding energy is created
by electrons forming a 2p electron state with the protons to form a
covalent structure. This bonding state is only stable because of the
large negative charge in the gap. The electrons are part of this
structure and are also trapped. Nevertheless, the electrons can move
freely within each Hydroton, thereby acting as if the Hydroton were
superconducting.
Ed Storms
On May 28, 2013, at 10:23 PM, Harry Veeder wrote:
Ed,
do you agree that what primarily keeps the protons in the gap is
their repulsion with the lattice nuclei and what primarily keeps
electrons in the gap is their repulsion with the electron shells
around the lattice nuclei?
harry
On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Edmund Storms
<stor...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Dave, you are adding ideas that have no relationship to what I'm
describing. Conductivity has no relationship to the the gap, its
role, or its lifetime. The gap width is the ONLY variable that
determines whether it will be a NAE. Once the gap has grown too big,
it no longer allows formation of the Hydroton and, instead, normal
H2 forms. It can grow too big if the stress that made the gap in the
first place continues to increase. I suggest this is why most
successful production of excess energy eventually stops.
The Hydroton acts like a superconductor because the electron is free
to move within the structure because it is not bound to a single
nucleus. The gap itself is not superconducting.
The effect of nano-structures on concentrating energy (aka Axil) is
an entirely different phenomenon that has no relationship to LENR
according to my model. Axil obviously has a different model.
Ed Storms
On May 28, 2013, at 6:22 PM, David Roberson wrote:
I believe that I see what you are describing Ed. This effect must
go away at some size when the metal begins to have conductivity on
the inside surfaces of the cavities. Could this be the mechanism
that limits how large the NAE can become?
Does anyone know how large a metallic structure has to be before it
looks like a resistor? Perhaps I am stretching it to assume that a
structure which only has a small number of associated atoms behaves
like a superconductor. If not, what mechanism determines the
resistive parameter?
If a small collection of atoms behaves like a superconductor then
that would explain why the field generated by tiny Axil antennas
can become of great magnitude.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>
To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>
Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 6:16 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness...
Mark, you are describing a large container. The gap is not a large
container. It consists of two surfaces with a gap that is on the
atomic scale.
Start by imagining what a lattice consist of. It is created by a
regular arrangement of electron shells, each surrounding a nucleus.
These atoms are at a distance determined by a symmetrical electron
interaction between each neighbor . Now move the atoms apart along
a line. Immediately, the electron cloud surrounding each atom in
the wall is unbalanced. The electron cloud of each atom pushed into
the gap. This same effect happens on a clean surface and accounts
for the surface energy that attracts absorbed atoms.
Is this clearer?
Ed Storms
On May 28, 2013, at 3:53 PM, David Roberson wrote:
Ed, I recall the Van de Graaff generators which had a vacuum or
just air inside and a conductive outside. One of the
demonstrations that I saw was that there is no electric field
within the shielding outer surface. Why does this not happen
within the NAE? It looks a lot like one of those devices since a
metallic conductor surrounds the cavity. Am I missing something
about the shape?
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>
To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>
Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 5:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness...
Mark, when the gap initially forms, nothing is present. It is a
void, a space without substance, a vacuum if you wish. However, it
contains strong negative fields and it contains electrons. Does a
vacuum contain electrons? The gap is too small for a gas molecule
to enter. It can accommodate only hydron ions, which when they
enter, react with each other. At this point in the discussion,
I'm describing pure chemical conditions that can be calculated
using conventional theory. Does this answer your question?
Ed Storms
On May 28, 2013, at 3:07 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:
Ed:
Thanks for the additional explanation, but it wasn’t necessary…
Obviously, there’s a disconnect as to what my point was in this
thread, and how you interpreted it.
I do not take issue with your hypothesis; I follow the reasoning
and steps of how you think LENR occurs. It sounds very
straightforward, and I trust your vast knowledge of the field to
have taken all the empirical data to heart when formulating the
hypothesis. I sincerely hope that you are able to convince some
LENR researchers to test your hypothesis and get some empirical
support…
The point of my posting the thread is to understand the precise
environment of these dislocations in the lattice… if they are the
site where LENR processes occur, and I think that is the likely
scenario, then it is *essential* to have an *accurate*
understanding of what constitutes a dislocation. Your
contributions to this thread have certainly described how you
view them, however, you did NOT answer my question as to what is
in the voids when nothing has ‘diffused’ into them!!
The purpose for my first set of questions was to simply ascertain
whether or not we have a (perfect?) vacuum on the inside of the
dislocation immediately after it forms and before anything
happens to diffuse into them… I think I prefaced my questions to
focus on that situation. Can we agree that we are dealing with a
vacuum, at least initially?
-Mark Iverson
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 7:54 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness...
On May 28, 2013, at 1:58 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:
Ed replied:
“Yes, the void is very different from the lattice. That is the
whole point to the idea behind the NAE. A nuclear reaction cannot
take place in a normal lattice. A change must take place. This
change produces a different condition I call the NAE. In my
model, this NAE is a gap created by stress relief. Other models
imagine a different condition. Regardless of the condition, it
MUST contain hydrons because that is what experiences fusion,
which is the essential result of cold fusion.”
OK, so you are positing that as soon as the dislocation or gap
forms, hydrons IMMEDIATELY diffuse into it? Even if the
electrode hasn’t even been immersed in the electrolyte yet (if
we’re talking electrolytic type experiments); or before hydrogen
gas is introduced if we’re dealing with a NiH system? I don’t
think so…
Mark, of course a source of H+ or D+ must be present. Let me
make the process as clear as possible. First a gap forms as a
result of stress relief. Then any hydrons present in the
surrounding material diffuse into the gap and react to form the
Hydroton. If no hydrons are present in the material, nothing
happens. Once the Hydroton forms, this structure starts to
oscillate and mass energy is emitted as photons.
Two essential conditions are required for LENR to occur - (1) a
gap of critical size must form and (2) hydrogen isotopes must
dissolve in the material forming the gap. The gaps can be
created first, as is the case with the Rossi method, or they can
be created while hydrogen loading takes place, which happens
during electrolysis. In the Rossi method, the nickel is reacted
with something to form the gaps. It is then placed in the E-Cat
where it is reacted with hydrogen. Once the hydrogen has entered
the Ni metal as a dissolved ion, it finds a gap and proceeds to
make deuterium and heat. The rate of reaction is determined by
how rapidly the H+ can find a gap. This rate is determined by
temperature and concentration of H+ in the Ni. The concentration
is determined by temperature and the activity of H in the
surrounding gas. Because this process has a positive temperature
effect, Rossi must work to limit the effect of temperature, which
he does by controlling temperature using an external source of
energy. Using these variables, the behavior of the reactor can be
modeled very accurately once the the variables are known. They
are not public knowledge at the present time. Nevertheless, the
reported behavior of the e-Cat and the Hot-cat are totally
consistent with this description.
That is my story and I sticking to it.:-)
I hope this is clear.
-Mark
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:24 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness...
On May 19, 2013, at 11:55 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:
To which Ed answered, mainly expressing what his view is inside
this void:
“The answer depends on which theory you accept. In my case, the
void consists initially of a strong negative charge created by
the electrons in the wall that are associated with the metal
atoms making up the wall. The charge is strong because it is now
unbalance as a result of the walls being too far apart for the
electron orbits (waves) to be properly balanced. This condition
attracts hydrons (hydrogen ions), which enter the gap by
releasing Gibbs energy. In so doing, they create a tightly bonded
covalent structure in the form of a string. The hydrons in this
string are closer together than is normally possible because the
electron concentration between them is higher than normal. When
this structure resonates, the hydrons get even closer together
periodically, depending on the frequency of vibration. Each time
they get to within a critical distance, energy is emitted from
each hydron as a photon. Once enough energy has been emitted as a
series of weak photons, the fusion process is completed by the
intervening electron being sucked into the final nuclear product.
The details of how this process works will be described later.”
The temperature is very high, but not high enough to melt the
surrounding material. As a result, some energy is lost from the
gap as phonons. The photon/phonon ratio is still unknown.
Nevertheless, the rate of photon emission is large enough to be
detected outside of the apparatus when H is used.
To which I respond:
But if the void is tens of ‘atom-diameters’ across, you are way
beyond the influence of any electrons, unless they are ‘free’
electrons flying around in that void. Restrict your viewpoint to
only the interior of the void…
The gap size is unknown but sufficient to cause the proposed
process. You only need to agree such a process might be possible
in principle without having to know the exact conditions.
Ed Storms
Mark, you are making assumptions that do not need to be made.
Regardless of what you imagine might be the case, hydrons MUST
assemble because otherwise they can not fuse. The entire process
hinges on hydrons assembling in an unconventional way. That
requirement is basic. The challenge is to discover how this is
possible without violating the laws of thermodynamics. Of course,
if you keep making assumptions, the process can either be
rejected or justified, your choice. I make the assumptions I
think can be justified and try to find where they lead. In my
case, they lead to a model that can explain ALL behavior without
making additional assumptions. While this might be a wild goose
chase, it does provide a useful path, which other theories have
not done.
*For the sake of argument*, assume that there are NO free atoms,
sub-atomic particles or photons flying around in the void… in
that case, do you not have a *perfect vacuum*? And as to my
second question, what’s the temperature of a perfect vacuum?
Would it not be 0.00000000000K in temperature?
I have no idea how the concept of vacuum applies. The NAE is a
chemical state within a material. As H enters the state, they
generate Gibbs energy, which is dissipated as heat (phonons). As
a result, the region gets hot. The hydrons would not assemble if
this energy were not generated, thereby producing heat. That is
the basic nature of a chemical process.
Ed is positing that the NAE are essential to LENR, and I am
positing that the VOIDs are a major element in the NAE, AND that
the conditions in the VOIDs are NOT those of the bulk,
surrounding matter; in fact, they are very different. To
understand the NAE requires an understanding of EXACTLY what the
conditions are INSIDE the voids.
Yes, the void is very different from the lattice. That is the
whole point to the idea behind the NAE. A nuclear reaction cannot
take place in a normal lattice. A change must take place. This
change produces a different condition I call the NAE. In my
model, this NAE is a gap created by stress relief. Other models
imagine a different condition. Regardless of the condition, it
MUST contain hydrons because that is what experiences fusion,
which is the essential result of cold fusion.
Ed, perhaps you could summarize what the various viewpoints are
as to the physical environment inside these voids.
The different theories use various features. Hagelstein uses
metal atom vacancies, Miley uses dislocations, Takahashi uses
special sites on the surface, and Kim assumes a BEC can form
within the lattice. Each of these conditions are used to justify
formation of a group of hydrons that fuse by some mysterious
process. Other theories (Chubb for example) assume the process
can occur whenever the lattice gets fully saturated with hydrons
without a cluster being required.
Ed Storms
-Mark Iverson