Ed, do you agree that what primarily keeps the protons in the gap is their repulsion with the lattice nuclei and what primarily keeps electrons in the gap is their repulsion with the electron shells around the lattice nuclei?
harry On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>wrote: > Dave, you are adding ideas that have no relationship to what I'm > describing. Conductivity has no relationship to the the gap, its role, or > its lifetime. The gap width is the ONLY variable that determines whether it > will be a NAE. Once the gap has grown too big, it no longer allows > formation of the Hydroton and, instead, normal H2 forms. It can grow too > big if the stress that made the gap in the first place continues to > increase. I suggest this is why most successful production of excess energy > eventually stops. > > The Hydroton acts like a superconductor because the electron is free to > move within the structure because it is not bound to a single nucleus. The > gap itself is not superconducting. > > The effect of nano-structures on concentrating energy (aka Axil) is an > entirely different phenomenon that has no relationship to LENR according to > my model. Axil obviously has a different model. > > Ed Storms > > > On May 28, 2013, at 6:22 PM, David Roberson wrote: > > I believe that I see what you are describing Ed. This effect must go away > at some size when the metal begins to have conductivity on the inside > surfaces of the cavities. Could this be the mechanism that limits how > large the NAE can become? > > Does anyone know how large a metallic structure has to be before it looks > like a resistor? Perhaps I am stretching it to assume that a structure > which only has a small number of associated atoms behaves like a > superconductor. If not, what mechanism determines the resistive parameter? > > If a small collection of atoms behaves like a superconductor then that > would explain why the field generated by tiny Axil antennas can become of > great magnitude. > > Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com> > To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> > Cc: Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com> > Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 6:16 pm > Subject: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness... > > Mark, you are describing a large container. The gap is not a large > container. It consists of two surfaces with a gap that is on the atomic > scale. > > Start by imagining what a lattice consist of. It is created by a regular > arrangement of electron shells, each surrounding a nucleus. These atoms are > at a distance determined by a symmetrical electron interaction between each > neighbor . Now move the atoms apart along a line. Immediately, the electron > cloud surrounding each atom in the wall is unbalanced. The electron cloud > of each atom pushed into the gap. This same effect happens on a clean > surface and accounts for the surface energy that attracts absorbed atoms. > > Is this clearer? > > Ed Storms > On May 28, 2013, at 3:53 PM, David Roberson wrote: > > Ed, I recall the Van de Graaff generators which had a vacuum or just air > inside and a conductive outside. One of the demonstrations that I saw was > that there is no electric field within the shielding outer surface. Why > does this not happen within the NAE? It looks a lot like one of those > devices since a metallic conductor surrounds the cavity. Am I missing > something about the shape? > > Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com> > To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> > Cc: Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com> > Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 5:38 pm > Subject: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness... > > Mark, when the gap initially forms, nothing is present. It is a void, a > space without substance, a vacuum if you wish. However, it contains strong > negative fields and it contains electrons. Does a vacuum contain electrons? > The gap is too small for a gas molecule to enter. It can accommodate only > hydron ions, which when they enter, react with each other. At this point > in the discussion, I'm describing pure chemical conditions that can be > calculated using conventional theory. Does this answer your question? > > Ed Storms > > > On May 28, 2013, at 3:07 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote: > > Ed: > Thanks for the additional explanation, but it wasn’t necessary… > Obviously, there’s a disconnect as to what my point was in this thread, > and how you interpreted it. > > I do not take issue with your hypothesis; I follow the reasoning and steps > of how you think LENR occurs. It sounds very straightforward, and I trust > your vast knowledge of the field to have taken all the empirical data to > heart when formulating the hypothesis. I sincerely hope that you are able > to convince some LENR researchers to test your hypothesis and get some > empirical support… > > The point of my posting the thread is to understand the precise > environment of these dislocations in the lattice… if they are the site > where LENR processes occur, and I think that is the likely scenario, then > it is **essential** to have an **accurate** understanding of what > constitutes a dislocation. Your contributions to this thread have > certainly described how you view them, however, you did NOT answer my > question as to what is in the voids when nothing has ‘diffused’ into them!! > > The purpose for my first set of questions was to simply ascertain whether > or not we have a (perfect?) vacuum on the inside of the dislocation > immediately after it forms and before anything happens to diffuse into > them… I think I prefaced my questions to focus on that situation. Can we > agree that we are dealing with a vacuum, at least initially? > > -Mark Iverson > > *From:* Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com<stor...@ix.netcom.com> > ] > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 28, 2013 7:54 AM > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > *Cc:* Edmund Storms > *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness... > > > On May 28, 2013, at 1:58 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote: > > > Ed replied: > “Yes, the void is very different from the lattice. That is the whole > point to the idea behind the NAE. A nuclear reaction cannot take place in a > normal lattice. A change must take place. This change produces a different > condition I call the NAE. In my model, this NAE is a gap created by stress > relief. Other models imagine a different condition. Regardless of the > condition, it MUST contain hydrons because that is what experiences fusion, > which is the essential result of cold fusion.” > > OK, so you are positing that as soon as the dislocation or gap forms, > hydrons IMMEDIATELY diffuse into it? Even if the electrode hasn’t even > been immersed in the electrolyte yet (if we’re talking electrolytic type > experiments); or before hydrogen gas is introduced if we’re dealing with a > NiH system? I don’t think so… > > Mark, of course a source of H+ or D+ must be present. Let me make the > process as clear as possible. First a gap forms as a result of stress > relief. Then any hydrons present in the surrounding material diffuse into > the gap and react to form the Hydroton. If no hydrons are present in the > material, nothing happens. Once the Hydroton forms, this structure starts > to oscillate and mass energy is emitted as photons. > > Two essential conditions are required for LENR to occur - (1) a gap of > critical size must form and (2) hydrogen isotopes must dissolve in the > material forming the gap. The gaps can be created first, as is the case > with the Rossi method, or they can be created while hydrogen loading takes > place, which happens during electrolysis. In the Rossi method, the nickel > is reacted with something to form the gaps. It is then placed in the E-Cat > where it is reacted with hydrogen. Once the hydrogen has entered the Ni > metal as a dissolved ion, it finds a gap and proceeds to make deuterium and > heat. The rate of reaction is determined by how rapidly the H+ can find a > gap. This rate is determined by temperature and concentration of H+ in the > Ni. The concentration is determined by temperature and the activity of H in > the surrounding gas. Because this process has a positive temperature > effect, Rossi must work to limit the effect of temperature, which he does > by controlling temperature using an external source of energy. Using these > variables, the behavior of the reactor can be modeled very accurately once > the the variables are known. They are not public knowledge at the present > time. Nevertheless, the reported behavior of the e-Cat and the Hot-cat are > totally consistent with this description. > > That is my story and I sticking to it.:-) > > I hope this is clear. > > > > -Mark > > *From:* Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com<stor...@ix.netcom.com> > ] > *Sent:* Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:24 AM > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > *Cc:* Edmund Storms > *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness... > > > On May 19, 2013, at 11:55 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote: > > > To which Ed answered, mainly expressing what his view is inside this > void: > * * > *“The answer depends on which theory you accept. In my case, the void > consists initially of a strong negative charge created by the electrons in > the wall that are associated with the metal atoms making up the wall. The > charge is strong because it is now unbalance as a result of the walls being > too far apart for the electron orbits (waves) to be properly balanced. > This condition attracts hydrons (hydrogen ions), which enter the gap by > releasing Gibbs energy. In so doing, they create a tightly bonded covalent > structure in the form of a string. The hydrons in this string are closer > together than is normally possible because the electron concentration > between them is higher than normal. When this structure resonates, the > hydrons get even closer together periodically, depending on the frequency > of vibration. Each time they get to within a critical distance, energy is > emitted from each hydron as a photon. Once enough energy has been emitted > as a series of weak photons, the fusion process is completed by the > intervening electron being sucked into the final nuclear product. The > details of how this process works will be described later.”* > > *The temperature is very high, but not high enough to melt the > surrounding material. As a result, some energy is lost from the gap as > phonons. The photon/phonon ratio is still unknown. Nevertheless, the rate > of photon emission is large enough to be detected outside of the apparatus > when H is used.* > > To which I respond: > But if the void is tens of ‘atom-diameters’ across, you are way beyond > the influence of any electrons, unless they are ‘free’ electrons flying > around in that void. Restrict your viewpoint to only the interior of the > void… > > > The gap size is unknown but sufficient to cause the proposed process. > You only need to agree such a process might be possible in principle > without having to know the exact conditions. > > Ed Storms > > > Mark, you are making assumptions that do not need to be made. > Regardless of what you imagine might be the case, hydrons MUST assemble > because otherwise they can not fuse. The entire process hinges on hydrons > assembling in an unconventional way. That requirement is basic. The > challenge is to discover how this is possible without violating the laws of > thermodynamics. Of course, if you keep making assumptions, the process can > either be rejected or justified, your choice. I make the assumptions I > think can be justified and try to find where they lead. In my case, they > lead to a model that can explain ALL behavior without making additional > assumptions. While this might be a wild goose chase, it does provide a > useful path, which other theories have not done. > > > > **For the sake of argument**, assume that there are NO free atoms, > sub-atomic particles or photons flying around in the void… in that case, do > you not have a **perfect vacuum**? And as to my second question, what’s > the temperature of a perfect vacuum? Would it not be 0.00000000000K in > temperature? > > I have no idea how the concept of vacuum applies. The NAE is a chemical > state within a material. As H enters the state, they generate Gibbs energy, > which is dissipated as heat (phonons). As a result, the region gets hot. > The hydrons would not assemble if this energy were not generated, thereby > producing heat. That is the basic nature of a chemical process. > > > > Ed is positing that the NAE are essential to LENR, and I am positing > that the VOIDs are a major element in the NAE, AND that the conditions in > the VOIDs are NOT those of the bulk, surrounding matter; in fact, they are > very different. To understand the NAE requires an understanding of EXACTLY > what the conditions are INSIDE the voids. > > Yes, the void is very different from the lattice. That is the whole > point to the idea behind the NAE. A nuclear reaction cannot take place in a > normal lattice. A change must take place. This change produces a different > condition I call the NAE. In my model, this NAE is a gap created by stress > relief. Other models imagine a different condition. Regardless of the > condition, it MUST contain hydrons because that is what experiences fusion, > which is the essential result of cold fusion. > > > > Ed, perhaps you could summarize what the various viewpoints are as to > the physical environment inside these voids. > > The different theories use various features. Hagelstein uses metal atom > vacancies, Miley uses dislocations, Takahashi uses special sites on the > surface, and Kim assumes a BEC can form within the lattice. Each of these > conditions are used to justify formation of a group of hydrons that fuse by > some mysterious process. Other theories (Chubb for example) assume the > process can occur whenever the lattice gets fully saturated with hydrons > without a cluster being required. > > Ed Storms > > > > -Mark Iverson > > > > > > > >
