Mark, you are describing a large container. The gap is not a large
container. It consists of two surfaces with a gap that is on the
atomic scale.
Start by imagining what a lattice consist of. It is created by a
regular arrangement of electron shells, each surrounding a nucleus.
These atoms are at a distance determined by a symmetrical electron
interaction between each neighbor . Now move the atoms apart along a
line. Immediately, the electron cloud surrounding each atom in the
wall is unbalanced. The electron cloud of each atom pushed into the
gap. This same effect happens on a clean surface and accounts for the
surface energy that attracts absorbed atoms.
Is this clearer?
Ed Storms
On May 28, 2013, at 3:53 PM, David Roberson wrote:
Ed, I recall the Van de Graaff generators which had a vacuum or just
air inside and a conductive outside. One of the demonstrations that
I saw was that there is no electric field within the shielding outer
surface. Why does this not happen within the NAE? It looks a lot
like one of those devices since a metallic conductor surrounds the
cavity. Am I missing something about the shape?
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>
To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>
Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 5:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness...
Mark, when the gap initially forms, nothing is present. It is a
void, a space without substance, a vacuum if you wish. However, it
contains strong negative fields and it contains electrons. Does a
vacuum contain electrons? The gap is too small for a gas molecule
to enter. It can accommodate only hydron ions, which when they
enter, react with each other. At this point in the discussion, I'm
describing pure chemical conditions that can be calculated using
conventional theory. Does this answer your question?
Ed Storms
On May 28, 2013, at 3:07 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:
Ed:
Thanks for the additional explanation, but it wasn’t necessary…
Obviously, there’s a disconnect as to what my point was in this
thread, and how you interpreted it.
I do not take issue with your hypothesis; I follow the reasoning
and steps of how you think LENR occurs. It sounds very
straightforward, and I trust your vast knowledge of the field to
have taken all the empirical data to heart when formulating the
hypothesis. I sincerely hope that you are able to convince some
LENR researchers to test your hypothesis and get some empirical
support…
The point of my posting the thread is to understand the precise
environment of these dislocations in the lattice… if they are the
site where LENR processes occur, and I think that is the likely
scenario, then it is *essential* to have an *accurate*
understanding of what constitutes a dislocation. Your
contributions to this thread have certainly described how you view
them, however, you did NOT answer my question as to what is in the
voids when nothing has ‘diffused’ into them!!
The purpose for my first set of questions was to simply ascertain
whether or not we have a (perfect?) vacuum on the inside of the
dislocation immediately after it forms and before anything happens
to diffuse into them… I think I prefaced my questions to focus on
that situation. Can we agree that we are dealing with a vacuum, at
least initially?
-Mark Iverson
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 7:54 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness...
On May 28, 2013, at 1:58 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:
Ed replied:
“Yes, the void is very different from the lattice. That is the
whole point to the idea behind the NAE. A nuclear reaction cannot
take place in a normal lattice. A change must take place. This
change produces a different condition I call the NAE. In my model,
this NAE is a gap created by stress relief. Other models imagine a
different condition. Regardless of the condition, it MUST contain
hydrons because that is what experiences fusion, which is the
essential result of cold fusion.”
OK, so you are positing that as soon as the dislocation or gap
forms, hydrons IMMEDIATELY diffuse into it? Even if the electrode
hasn’t even been immersed in the electrolyte yet (if we’re talking
electrolytic type experiments); or before hydrogen gas is
introduced if we’re dealing with a NiH system? I don’t think so…
Mark, of course a source of H+ or D+ must be present. Let me make
the process as clear as possible. First a gap forms as a result of
stress relief. Then any hydrons present in the surrounding material
diffuse into the gap and react to form the Hydroton. If no hydrons
are present in the material, nothing happens. Once the Hydroton
forms, this structure starts to oscillate and mass energy is
emitted as photons.
Two essential conditions are required for LENR to occur - (1) a gap
of critical size must form and (2) hydrogen isotopes must dissolve
in the material forming the gap. The gaps can be created first, as
is the case with the Rossi method, or they can be created while
hydrogen loading takes place, which happens during electrolysis.
In the Rossi method, the nickel is reacted with something to form
the gaps. It is then placed in the E-Cat where it is reacted with
hydrogen. Once the hydrogen has entered the Ni metal as a
dissolved ion, it finds a gap and proceeds to make deuterium and
heat. The rate of reaction is determined by how rapidly the H+ can
find a gap. This rate is determined by temperature and
concentration of H+ in the Ni. The concentration is determined by
temperature and the activity of H in the surrounding gas. Because
this process has a positive temperature effect, Rossi must work to
limit the effect of temperature, which he does by controlling
temperature using an external source of energy. Using these
variables, the behavior of the reactor can be modeled very
accurately once the the variables are known. They are not public
knowledge at the present time. Nevertheless, the reported behavior
of the e-Cat and the Hot-cat are totally consistent with this
description.
That is my story and I sticking to it.:-)
I hope this is clear.
-Mark
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:24 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness...
On May 19, 2013, at 11:55 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:
To which Ed answered, mainly expressing what his view is inside
this void:
“The answer depends on which theory you accept. In my case, the
void consists initially of a strong negative charge created by the
electrons in the wall that are associated with the metal atoms
making up the wall. The charge is strong because it is now
unbalance as a result of the walls being too far apart for the
electron orbits (waves) to be properly balanced. This condition
attracts hydrons (hydrogen ions), which enter the gap by releasing
Gibbs energy. In so doing, they create a tightly bonded covalent
structure in the form of a string. The hydrons in this string are
closer together than is normally possible because the electron
concentration between them is higher than normal. When this
structure resonates, the hydrons get even closer together
periodically, depending on the frequency of vibration. Each time
they get to within a critical distance, energy is emitted from each
hydron as a photon. Once enough energy has been emitted as a series
of weak photons, the fusion process is completed by the intervening
electron being sucked into the final nuclear product. The details
of how this process works will be described later.”
The temperature is very high, but not high enough to melt the
surrounding material. As a result, some energy is lost from the gap
as phonons. The photon/phonon ratio is still unknown.
Nevertheless, the rate of photon emission is large enough to be
detected outside of the apparatus when H is used.
To which I respond:
But if the void is tens of ‘atom-diameters’ across, you are way
beyond the influence of any electrons, unless they are ‘free’
electrons flying around in that void. Restrict your viewpoint to
only the interior of the void…
The gap size is unknown but sufficient to cause the proposed
process. You only need to agree such a process might be possible
in principle without having to know the exact conditions.
Ed Storms
Mark, you are making assumptions that do not need to be made.
Regardless of what you imagine might be the case, hydrons MUST
assemble because otherwise they can not fuse. The entire process
hinges on hydrons assembling in an unconventional way. That
requirement is basic. The challenge is to discover how this is
possible without violating the laws of thermodynamics. Of course,
if you keep making assumptions, the process can either be rejected
or justified, your choice. I make the assumptions I think can be
justified and try to find where they lead. In my case, they lead to
a model that can explain ALL behavior without making additional
assumptions. While this might be a wild goose chase, it does
provide a useful path, which other theories have not done.
*For the sake of argument*, assume that there are NO free atoms,
sub-atomic particles or photons flying around in the void… in that
case, do you not have a *perfect vacuum*? And as to my second
question, what’s the temperature of a perfect vacuum? Would it not
be 0.00000000000K in temperature?
I have no idea how the concept of vacuum applies. The NAE is a
chemical state within a material. As H enters the state, they
generate Gibbs energy, which is dissipated as heat (phonons). As a
result, the region gets hot. The hydrons would not assemble if this
energy were not generated, thereby producing heat. That is the
basic nature of a chemical process.
Ed is positing that the NAE are essential to LENR, and I am
positing that the VOIDs are a major element in the NAE, AND that
the conditions in the VOIDs are NOT those of the bulk, surrounding
matter; in fact, they are very different. To understand the NAE
requires an understanding of EXACTLY what the conditions are INSIDE
the voids.
Yes, the void is very different from the lattice. That is the whole
point to the idea behind the NAE. A nuclear reaction cannot take
place in a normal lattice. A change must take place. This change
produces a different condition I call the NAE. In my model, this
NAE is a gap created by stress relief. Other models imagine a
different condition. Regardless of the condition, it MUST contain
hydrons because that is what experiences fusion, which is the
essential result of cold fusion.
Ed, perhaps you could summarize what the various viewpoints are as
to the physical environment inside these voids.
The different theories use various features. Hagelstein uses metal
atom vacancies, Miley uses dislocations, Takahashi uses special
sites on the surface, and Kim assumes a BEC can form within the
lattice. Each of these conditions are used to justify formation of
a group of hydrons that fuse by some mysterious process. Other
theories (Chubb for example) assume the process can occur whenever
the lattice gets fully saturated with hydrons without a cluster
being required.
Ed Storms
-Mark Iverson
