Re: Progressive Revelation
Dear Susan, You wrote: It is just that the term itself is derived from Christianity. Well, I'm not convinced it didn't originate with Baha'u'llah... OK, call me a die-hard! ; ) The Guardian translated Gleanings, published in 1952. So, conceding that the actual phrase originated with him ... I'd now be interested in knowing when and why (to whom) the original passage was written. I don't find it in any other books. With regard to the Christian connection, both The Approaching End of The Age, by H. Grattan Guinness in 1879 AD (referenced by Khazeh) and The Bible: A Progressive Revelation by S.L. Morgan, Sr. in the 1950's (referenced by Mark) were both written after the Declaration of Baha'u'llah. Whoso reciteth, in the privacy of his chamber, the verses revealed by God, the scattering angels of the Almighty shall scatter abroad the fragrance of the words uttered by his mouth, and shall cause the heart of every righteous man to throb. Though he may, at first, remain unaware of its effect, yet the virtue of the grace vouchsafed unto him must needs sooner or later exercise its influence upon his soul. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 294) There is also the world order phrase bantered about in recent years and will no doubt also be attributed to originating in the 20th Century; however, we also have this from Baha'u'llah and translated by the Guardian: LXX. The world's equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind's ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System -- the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 136) lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
In a sense, if we look deeply, and carefully, with a sense of the Sacred in our heart we find Progressive Revelation adumbrated/anticipated/ alluded to in all the Holy Books. 1] Hinduism Krishna has promised in the Bhagavad Gita that whenever righteousness is on the decline, and unrighteousness is in the ascendant, then God, though birthless and deathless, and the Lord of all beings, manifests Himself through His own Yogamaya (divine potency) keeping His Nature (Prakrti) under control. 2 He says, For the protection of the virtuous, for the extirpation of evil-doers, and for establishing Dharma (righteousness) on a firm footing, I am born from age to age. 2] Judaism Psa 96:2 Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his SALVATION FROM DAY TO DAY. Psa 19:2 DAY UNTO DAY uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. Psa 19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 3] New Testament Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; FIRST the blade, THEN the ear, AFTER that the full corn in the ear. The commentator writes FIRST THE BLADE - The green, tender shoot, that first starts out of the earth before the stalk is formed. THEN THE EAR - The original means the stalk or spire of wheat or barley, as well as the ear. THE FULL CORN - The ripe wheat. The grain swollen to its proper size. By this is denoted, undoubtedly, that grace or religion in the heart is of gradual growth. It is at first tender, feeble, perhaps almost imperceptible, like the first shootings of the grain in the earth. Perhaps also, like grain, it often lies long in the earth before there are signs of life. Like the tender grain, also, it needs care, kindness, and culture. A frost, a cold storm, or a burning sun alike injure it. So tender piety in the heart needs care, kindness, culture. It needs shelter from the frosts and storms of a cold, unfeeling world And in the Holy Qur'an 023.044 YUSUFALI: THEN SENT WE OUR MESSENGERS IN SUCCESSION: every time there came to a people their messenger, they accused him of falsehood: so We made them follow each other (in punishment): We made them as a tale (that is told): So away with a people that will not believe! PICKTHAL: THEN WE SENT OUR MESSENGERS ONE AFTER ANOTHER. Whenever its messenger came unto a nation they denied him; so We caused them to follow one another (to disaster) and We made them bywords. A far removal for folk who believe not! SHAKIR: Then We sent Our messengers one after another; whenever there came to a people their messenger, they called him a liar, so We made some of them follow others and We made them stories; so away with a people who do not believe! PALMER ¶ Then we sent our Apostles one after another. Whenever its Apostle came to any nation they called him a liar; and we made some to follow others; and we made them legends; away then with a people who do not believe! SALE Afterwards we sent our Apostles, one after another. So often as their Apostle came unto any nation, they charged him with imposture: And we caused them successively to follow one another [to destruction]; and we made them [only subjects of] traditional stories. Away therefore with the unbelieving nations! RODWELL Then sent we our apostles one after another. Oft as their apostle presented himself to a nation, they treated him as a liar; and we caused one nation to follow another; and we made them the burden of a tale. Away then with the people who believe not! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification (I hope)
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 07:47:12 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The French translation is very similar to a Passage from the Writings which is recorded in the Promised Day is Come and I will append that so that you will see dear Gilberto most clearly the difference [ie the difference between a divine who guideth his people from other wise So in your opinion are there any divines who guide their people as described? Also, I just looked at some other sections of the Promised Day has Come and I think it is better to be candid about what is in your books. Especially now with the internet being what it is, it doesn't make any sense to hide what is in them. In the section entitled Words to Muslim Ecclesiastics it says: In that same Book the Báb thus addresses the Shí'ihs, as well as the entire body of the followers of the Prophet: O concourse of Shí'ihs! Fear ye God, and Our Cause, which concerneth Him Who is the Most Great Remembrance of God. For great is its fire, as decreed in the Mother-Book. O people of the Qur'án! Ye are as nothing unless ye submit unto the Remembrance of God and unto this Book. If ye follow the Cause of God, We will forgive you your sins, and if ye turn aside from Our command, We will, in truth, condemn your souls in Our Book, unto the Most Great Fire. We, verily, do not deal unjustly with men, even to the extent of a speck on a date stone. Khazeh: Keep investigating this NEWS the way you are. I swear this is the only way forward and I too will look at your replies with a repeated gaze with respect. Khazeh 049.006 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! If a wicked person comes to you with Any News, ascertain the truth, lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done. Gilberto: Khazeh, I am not sure that this means what you think it does. I don't think it means to stop and listen to everyone who brings you news, even if they are evil. I think makes more sense to read it as saying, if someone is evil, you don't want to easily trust what they say. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:48:46 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:30:51 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the Bahai faith isn't completely dissimilar to those groups. I think about A thief in the night and the related interpretations of the Millerite groups who as fundamentalists literally expected the coming of Jesus to bring justice and righteous to the earth. Yes, and it even goes further than that. The first millennial movement was started during the Crusades by Joachim de Fiora who probably laid the groundwork for dispensationalism. He held that Age of the Holy Spirit would begin in the year 1260 A.D. Of course 1260 in the Muslim calendar is 1844 in the Christian one. Do you know how he came up with his prediction? (I don't). I mean that would make a big difference in terms of whether switching calendars on him is a reasonable thing to do. Did he come up with the number 1260, and then pick the wrong start date. Or did he get 1260 AD some other way? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
Never mind. Joachim gets 1260 from the 42 weeks of Daniel. Which I think is the same as the Millerites and Sears. So all of this isn't really independent confirmation. It all just depends on how you read the Biblical prophecy. And over the centuries different groups have read the exact same prophecies and used them to predict the end of the world many different times. The Beast has been identified with everyone from Nero to the Pope to Luther to Hitler to Ronald Regan. Peace Gilberto On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 11:13:54 -0500, Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:48:46 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:30:51 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the Bahai faith isn't completely dissimilar to those groups. I think about A thief in the night and the related interpretations of the Millerite groups who as fundamentalists literally expected the coming of Jesus to bring justice and righteous to the earth. Yes, and it even goes further than that. The first millennial movement was started during the Crusades by Joachim de Fiora who probably laid the groundwork for dispensationalism. He held that Age of the Holy Spirit would begin in the year 1260 A.D. Of course 1260 in the Muslim calendar is 1844 in the Christian one. Do you know how he came up with his prediction? (I don't). I mean that would make a big difference in terms of whether switching calendars on him is a reasonable thing to do. Did he come up with the number 1260, and then pick the wrong start date. Or did he get 1260 AD some other way? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
Gilberto, At 10:28 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote: So all of this isn't really independent confirmation. It all just depends on how you read the Biblical prophecy. `Abdu'l-Baha was reported to have said: The texts of the Holy Books are all symbolical, needing authoritative interpretation. -- Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.220 What do they symbolize? IMO, they symbolize the meanings in the minds of God, the writer, or the interpreter. In other words, prophecies, like all scriptural texts, whether their contents are clearly stated or ambiguous, have no independent meaning. And over the centuries different groups have read the exact same prophecies and used them to predict the end of the world many different times. The Beast has been identified with everyone from Nero to the Pope to Luther to Hitler to Ronald Regan. And they continue to do so. Full preterists believe that prophecies *prove* that Christ returned once and for all in 70 AD. Partial preterists believe they demonstrate that Christ returned in 70 AD and will return again in the future. Premillennialists, or futurists, argue that most biblical prophecies are fulfilled in the times immediately preceding the millennium. Historicists contend that prophecies have had a gradual fulfillment. The meanings are in the minds of the interpreters, not in the texts. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:48:56 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 10:28 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote: So all of this isn't really independent confirmation. It all just depends on how you read the Biblical prophecy. `Abdu'l-Baha was reported to have said: The texts of the Holy Books are all symbolical, needing authoritative interpretation. -- Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.220 That seems like a really counter-intuitive juxtaposition of ideas. If the scriptures are just inkblots which can mean anything, then it doesn't makes sense that an authority can come in and tell you what they mean. On the other hand, if the authority is really an authority (like they have good connections with the author) then their interpretation would at least partially convey what the text *really* means (what the author had in mind). At least that's in the case of scripture. (although this inkblot perspective is growing on me. I still haven't thought through my opinion on it. By any chance, have you seen the movie Ghost Dog? It really reminds me of the inkblot perspective. There are several examples in the movie of how individuals are isolated from one another don't really communicate with one another. Instead what happens is that one character gives out signals and the other one makes reasonable inferences about what they want.) Gilberto: And over the centuries different groups have read the exact same prophecies and used them to predict the end of the world many different times. The Beast has been identified with everyone from Nero to the Pope to Luther to Hitler to Ronald Regan. Mark: And they continue to do so. Full preterists believe that prophecies *prove* that Christ returned once and for all in 70 AD. Partial preterists believe they demonstrate that Christ returned in 70 AD and will return again in the future. Premillennialists, or futurists, argue that most biblical prophecies are fulfilled in the times immediately preceding the millennium. Historicists contend that prophecies have had a gradual fulfillment. ] Gilberto: Okay, but aren't you willing to say that the Preterists are actually wrong? Or are you saying that in some sense Christ really did return in 70 AD? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
Do you know how he came up with his prediction? (I don't). Dear Gilberto, Yeah, if you read the Book of Revelations there are constant references to one thousand two hundred and sixty days. There are other references to 3 1/2 days which also figure out to 1260 if you take each day to represent a year. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
In order to get 1260 years from 3 1/2 days, you have to do a double days-to-years conversion. First you change 3 1/2 days to 3 1/2 years. Then you make 3 1/2 years (1260 days) into 1260 years. Dear Mark, Yes, of course. But if you read the Book of Revelations it becomes pretty clear that the two numbers are used interchangeably and Abdu'l-Baha was hardly the first person to notice this. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
Gilberto, At 11:07 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote: That seems like a really counter-intuitive juxtaposition of ideas. If the scriptures are just inkblots which can mean anything, then it doesn't makes sense that an authority can come in and tell you what they mean. I think it indicates that, although some of the writers of the books incorporated into the Bible apparently predicted the return of Christ, much of the rest is subjective and guess work. Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour. - words attributed to Jesus, cited: Matthew 25:13 On the other hand, if the authority is really an authority (like they have good connections with the author) then their interpretation would at least partially convey what the text *really* means (what the author had in mind). At least that's in the case of scripture. I don't think that texts mean anything. Authors mean something. Those who inspire authors, including God, mean something. Interpreters mean something. although this inkblot perspective is growing on me. lol. To use your analogy, all structurizations, or constructions, are, IMO, inkblots. Interpretations of those structurizations are standpoint epistemologies (Nancy Hartsock et al.). It then comes down to whether one accepts the authority of the person or persons holding to a particular standpoint. I still haven't thought through my opinion on it. By any chance, have you seen the movie Ghost Dog? No, but I just ordered the DVD from Amazon. Okay, but aren't you willing to say that the Preterists are actually wrong? Or are you saying that in some sense Christ really did return in 70 AD? It is a matter of authority. I think that the historicists come closest to the perspective taken by `Abdu'l-Baha. The full preterists are probably furthest from His perspective. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
Hi, Susan, At 12:01 PM 12/21/2004, you wrote: Yes, of course. But if you read the Book of Revelations it becomes pretty clear that the two numbers are used interchangeably and Abdu'l-Baha was hardly the first person to notice this. A lot of numbers, such as 12 and 40, are repeated in the texts of the Bible. However, they are used in different contexts. I mentioned this point as an example of how `Abdu'l-Baha's interpretations, and His overall heuristics, must be accepted on faith. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
- Original Message - From: Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 4:46 AM Subject: RE: Progressive Revelation In a sense, if we look deeply, and carefully, with a sense of the Sacred in our heart we find Progressive Revelation adumbrated/anticipated/ alluded to in all the Holy Books. Dear Khazeh, Do you have the time to post the Buddhist and Zarathustrian references of the same character? I will be most appreciative if you will post them. Thank you, Richard. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
A lot of numbers, such as 12 and 40, are repeated in the texts of the Bible. However, they are used in different contexts. Yes, I agree. What I am suggesting is that 1260 and 3 1/2 were really interchangeable. And in this case, they are used in the same context. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:46:21 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a sense, if we look deeply, and carefully, with a sense of the Sacred in our heart we find Progressive Revelation adumbrated/anticipated/ alluded to in all the Holy Books. Do you have a specific definition of Progressive Revelation that one can refer to? Because looking at the passage you quote in the Quran: 023.044 YUSUFALI: THEN SENT WE OUR MESSENGERS IN SUCCESSION: every time there came to a people their messenger, they accused him of falsehood: so We made them follow each other (in punishment): We made them as a tale (that is told): So away with a people that will not believe! It says you the messengers were sent one after another but it doesn't necessarily let you say exactly how the messengers or their messages are related. Is one message higher than another? Deeper than another? Easier than another? Harder than another? Better? Is it the exact same message? For example, in Martin Ling's book What is Sufism? he talks about the various revelations but he compares them to waves coming in from the Ocean. Every once in a while, the wave comes, and leaves behind water. But the water is all the same. It comes from the same Ocean. So is that what you mean? Or are you trying to say that the water in the new wave is different from the water in the previous wave? Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
|Do you have a specific definition of Progressive Revelation |that one can refer to? Because looking at the passage you |quote in the Quran: Sure, here it is: http://studycircle.angeltowns.com/progressive.htm __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
So in your opinion, khazeh, are there any divines who guide their people as described? Dear Gilberto I feel that God is bringing you closer to my heart with every letter which you post on these important themes. I just wish to say that I appreciate your time and effort in sorting out these questions, and in many ways, Im learning from you. In going back to your substantive question above, of course such divines exist otherwise the Pen of Bahaullah would not have described them. In fact, in a spiritual deep sense, I believe that there is a creative aspect to the utterances of God in each age, and that such divines will be created by the will of God. Insha'Allah. And in this regard, I beg again that you look as I have done several times with interest at this Message of the Universal House of Justice to all the religious leaders of all Faiths. http://bahai-library.com/published.uhj/religious.leaders.html Nor should it be thought for a moment that the followers of Baha'u'llah either seek to degrade or even belittle the rank of the world's religious leaders, whether Christian, Muslim, or of any other denomination, should their conduct conform to their professions, and be worthy of the position they occupy. Those divines, Baha'u'llah has affirmed, ...who are truly adorned with the ornament of knowledge and of a goodly character are, verily, as a head to the body of the world, and as eyes to the nations. The guidance of men hath, at all times, been and is dependent upon these blessed souls. (Shoghi Effendi: The Promised Day is Come, Pages: 110-111) 2) Dear Gilberto, you wrote [Also, I just looked at some other sections of the Promised Day has Come and I think it is better to be candid about what is in your books. Especially now with the internet being what it is, it doesn't make any sense to hide what is in them. In the section entitled Words to Muslim Ecclesiastics it says: In that same Book the Báb thus addresses the Shí'ihs, as well as the entire body of the followers of the Prophet: O concourse of Shí'ihs! Fear ye God, and Our Cause, which concerneth Him Who is the Most Great Remembrance of God. For great is its fire, as decreed in the Mother-Book. O people of the Qur'án! Ye are as nothing unless ye submit unto the Remembrance of God and unto this Book. If ye follow the Cause of God, We will forgive you your sins, and if ye turn aside from Our command, We will, in truth, condemn your souls in Our Book, unto the Most Great Fire. We, verily, do not deal unjustly with men, even to the extent of a speck on a date stone.] Once again, I appreciate your effort in trying to clarify different aspects of the utterances in Bahai books. I must say in all sincerity and humility that there is no question of hiding any references. The Bahai revelation, as you kindly note, is available to everyone. Presumably you quoted this section is to show that there is a perceived contrast between the utterance of the Exalted Bab here and other passages. I would submit the following suggestion: When you look at all the divine scriptures, you will find different emphases in different parts of the same book. In relation to the passage above for example, the Bab says that you are nothing unless you submit In the original Arabic, this clearly echoes this passage of the Holy Quran in Surih 2: 113, in which if you study, God says that the followers of the previous Dispensations are as nothing even they were busy reciting the Book. While in a more dramatic reference in the Quran 062.005 YUSUFALI: The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes (but understands them not). Evil is the similitude of people who falsify the Signs of God: and God guides not people who do wrong. PICKTHAL: The likeness of those who are entrusted with the Law of Moses, yet apply it not, is as the likeness of the ass carrying books. Wretched is the likeness of folk who deny the revelations of God. And God guideth not wrongdoing folk. SHAKIR: The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of God; and God does not guide the unjust people. Now, at first glance, these verses seem very strong, but the point is that this verse is in a late Medina súrih, late in the Revelation of His Holiness Muhammad, and the judgement is in a sense complete in that Dispensation. Thus, the stronger utterances such as the one you have quoted from The Promised Day is Come is indicative of such a phase in Divine Revelation. Im sure, on reflection, you will see where Im coming from. Similarly, in the New Testament, in St. Matthews Gospel, towards the end of His ministry, His Holiness Jesus Christ uttered all those Woe unto you utterances Mt 23:13
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:02:03 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So in your opinion, khazeh, are there any divines who guide their people as described? Dear Gilberto I feel that God is bringing you closer to my heart with every letter which you post on these important themes. I just wish to say that I appreciate your time and effort in sorting out these questions, and in many ways, I'm learning from you. Gilberto: Thank you. That is very kind of you to say. Khazeh: In going back to your substantive question above, of course such divines exist otherwise the Pen of Baha'u'llah would not have described them. Gilberto: But do they exist among non-Bahais in the present day? Do they exist among Bahais in the present day? Khazeh: Those divines, Baha'u'llah has affirmed, ...who are truly adorned with the ornament of knowledge and of a goodly character are, verily, as a head to the body of the world, and as eyes to the nations. The guidance of men hath, at all times, been and is dependent upon these blessed souls. (Shoghi Effendi: The Promised Day is Come, Pages: 110-111) Gilberto: When I read that passage I wasn't sure if current religious leaders were included or was it just limited to those prophets of the past. 2) Dear Gilberto, you wrote [Also, I just looked at some other sections of the Promised Day has Come and I think it is better to be candid about what is in your books. Especially now with the internet being what it is, it doesn't make any sense to hide what is in them. In the section entitled Words to Muslim Ecclesiastics it says: In that same Book the Bb thus addresses the Sh'ihs, as well as the entire body of the followers of the Prophet: O concourse of Sh'ihs! Fear ye God, and Our Cause, which concerneth Him Who is the Most Great Remembrance of God. For great is its fire, as decreed in the Mother-Book. O people of the Qur'n! Ye are as nothing unless ye submit unto the Remembrance of God and unto this Book. If ye follow the Cause of God, We will forgive you your sins, and if ye turn aside from Our command, We will, in truth, condemn your souls in Our Book, unto the Most Great Fire. We, verily, do not deal unjustly with men, even to the extent of a speck on a date stone. Khazeh: Once again, I appreciate your effort in trying to clarify different aspects of the utterances in Baha'i books. I must say in all sincerity and humility that there is no question of hiding any references. Gilberto: But sometimes certain Bahais make statements which construct a very specific image of the Bahai faith. And it certainly gives the impression that certain kinds of phrases or statements are not in the Bahai scriptures at all. And so multiple occasions I've read things in the writings which give a very very different impression from previous statements, and which, to be honest, makes me feel like someone is trying to trick people. And in alot of ways the statements are tied up with the doctrine of progressive revelation and are particularly directed at Islam. For example, Bahais say that an important principle of the faith is gender equality. But when I discover all the different ways that the Bahai faith makes distinctions between men and women it makes me feel lied to. The Bahai faith says that the law of holy war has been blotted from the book. But then in the Bahai writings I read about the Bahai concept of righteous warfare. Bahais claim that they don't prosyletize. And when I've looked into an explanation I've been told that it means that they don't threaten non-Bahais with hellfire for not believing. But then that's exactly what is found in the writings of the Bab. It would be one thing if I were talking to a Unitarian-Universalist who was criticizing Islam. If they wanted to criticize jihad, or the concept of the Fire, or Islamic attitudes towards gender, I would still probably disagree with them. And they would probably disagree with me. But I'm more certain that I could trust them to believe what they say they believe. But in the case of the Bahai faith there are things in the writings which at the very least give a very STRONG contrast to the general image which the Bahai faith puts out. In the case of Islam, growing up in the West, I started off with many different stereotypes. But the more I read the Quran, or other books about Islam, the more I realized that the stereotypes were misrepresentations, and that in reality true Islam is very different from the images which are put out there in the media. In the Bahai faith I almost have the opposite experience. My initial impressions are of the Bahai faith being this nice liberal progressive religion with good ideals. And I think on an individual level, many of the Bahais I've met (in person and virtually) exemplify that. But then I read the writings in more detail or read more about certain actions and policies of the institutions, and it seems to give a very
Re: Not Exhausted
Gilberto: I'm not sure I've read enough of Bahaullah's writings to say that he gives a particularly deep understanding. Some Bahai interpretations of Quranic passages I don't find terribly satisfying or super-deep. I think there are Muslim scholars, especially Sufis and others who interpret the Quran in ways which I find more impressive. But the larger point I would want to make is that if you are saying that over time, people can have a deeper understanding of certain texts, then I actually wouldn't have much a problem with that notion of progress. If, as quoted from the Bahai writings, the word of God is endless in meaning, then that suggests that Muslims could stick to the Quran and continue to study it, and find more and more spiritual depth the more time they spent in its ocean. Gilberto, I have no problem with this either. I don't feel the need to convince you to believe what I believe, just to accept the fact the I believe it. I think you may never agree with my stance and that's alright. I do not doubt for a minute your sincerity, or the sincerity of other Muslims out there. What I'm looking for is mutual respect and dialogue. I think this is achievable, but it will be more dificult if we take each diference of oppinion as a dig at the other person. I don't mean you personally, I have enjoyed our dialogue and wish it to continue. My concern was that some of what you've said made me think that you might have thought I was trying to convert you. I'm not, I just want us to understand each other and live together. That has not always been the case between our religions. As I said, I believe that when a new Prophet comes, the energy released in the world effects all people. That is why in the wake of Jesus (PBUH) Hillel arrose and in the wake of Muhammad (PBUH) the likes of Francis of Assisi, Moses Maimonides, and Thomas Aquinas arrose. I would go further and say in the wake of Baha'u'llah Muhammad Abduh and Fazlur Rahman arrose. Other religions will continue to produce brilliant scholars and holy people. Each religion will produce new insights into its scriptures and these will all be valid from some perspective. I must also add here that while Shoghi Effendi instructed Western Baha'is to study and vindicate Islam, we have not done that good a job and most Baha'is have no clue about fiqh, sharia, or what either entails. Rich: Once again this has to do with our understanding. I know the Muslim belief about the original Gospel and Torah. I think its specious. There is nothing in the Qur'an to back it up. In a passage discussing the People of the Book, is the admonition: [2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. This may be open to interpretation. I respect that you believe it means that the Gospel and Torah here today are forgeries. I disagree with this interpretation. On top of that there are several hadith (at least one specifically interprets the above verse) which are more explicit. More harm has been done to Islam by Hadith than by all the armies of Christendom. I know the ulm al isnad, but still its anybody guess as to what is and isn't valid in Hadith. You'll note that I said that I did not believe the Qur'an supports you're interpretation, my leaving out Hadith was intentional. I mean no disrespect, but it's hard to prove Hadith. And on top of that, even if the Quran and sunnah didn't verify the idea, I think the case for Biblical corruption is too strong to neglect. For example, if you read the Penteteuch (the "Torah") Moses' death is described at the end, in particular from the perspective of someone long after. So someone besides Moses obviously wrote that section. But then other passages of the Penteteuch are written in the same style. In fact, Biblical scholars almost universally accept the Documentary Hypothesis, which states that the Biblical Penteteuch had multiple authors (typically 4 are distinguished) and edited together centuries after Moses. So if that's true, the original revelation given to Moses (the actual Torah) is only a part of the Biblical Penteteuch. A similar argument could be made about the Gospels. If the Gospel is a revelation given to Jesus (similar to how the Quran was given to Muhammad) then the Gospel, if it exists in the NT at all is found in some portion of just the "red letters". But other elements are put into the mix as well. Besides, if you read about the history of the texts you would see that certain changes have taken place. I'm very aware of Biblical history, I've lectured on it in Baha'i classes. The Bible was written by men who were inspired by God. I do not believe that every word of it is the Word of God in the same sense that the Qur'an is, Baha'u'llah does not claim this. He states that
Re: Not Exhausted
Dear Rich, I highly respect what you said and would agree with alot of it. Just a few issues around the question of Biblical corruption: [2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. [end quote] Rich: This may be open to interpretation. I respect that you believe it means that the Gospel and Torah here today are forgeries. Gilberto: I wouldn't use the term forgeries. All I mean when *I* say corruption is that the first five books of the Bible are not identical to the Torah given to Moses. The 4 Biblical gospels are not identical to the Gospel given to Jesus. I even know of Bibles put out by Christians were the explanatory notes explain that the texts are corrupted. I wouldn't necessarily ascribe sinister motives to the people who put the texts together. Especially in the case of Jesus and the Gospels I think the corruption of doctrine was a result of pious exageration. (I'm not sure if I'm using the term correctly but I think the Bahai writings talk about veils of glory. Is that appropriate here?) I think that what I'm saying is pretty mild. [Documentary hypothesis and other topics deleed] Rich: I'm very aware of Biblical history, I've lectured on it in Baha'i classes. The Bible was written by men who were inspired by God. I do not believe that every word of it is the Word of God in the same sense that the Qur'an is, Baha'u'llah does not claim this. Gilberto: I don't think there is a fundamental difference in what we are saying. Some of the Bible may be the word of God. Some isn't. If even one letter is off, if some numbers are missing, then corruption has occured. If the wrong books were canonized, then corruption has occured. Everything else is just a matter of degree. Rich: Corruption would be the intentional placement of false verses to mislead, I do not believe this happened. What I say when I say the Bible is corrupted is alot milder than what you deny when you say it isn't. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
In a message dated 12/21/2004 9:31:07 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For example, Bahais say that an important principle of the faith isgender equality. But when I discover all the different ways that theBahai faith makes distinctions between men and women it makes me feellied to. Scott I find the question of women's services on the Universal House of justice confusing. But that decision was made first by a group containing a large percentage of women and the decision was unanimous. They also decided to exclude themselves from service on the House of Justice. They were the Hands of the Cause who administered the faith after the passing of the Guardian. So I see no conflict of interest there. Do I understand WHY there is that distinction? No. But I am told that in the fullness of time the reason will become apparent. On the other hand we are told that peace is impossible until women take their full place in the governance of nations. Gilberto: "The Bahai faith says that the law of holy war has been blotted fromthe book. But then in the Bahai writings I read about the Bahaiconcept of "righteous warfare"." Scott A nation may defend itself from attack but no other war is acceptable. When one nation is invaded ALL nations should come to the aid of the nation attacked. In this frame of reference, I think the original Gulf War was justifiable - in that Kuwait was invaded and the nations of the world united behind protecting the invaded nation. The Second World War was a justifiable war - both Poland and China were invaded and other nations came to their defense. Gilberto: "Bahais claim that they don't prosyletize. And when I've looked into anexplanation I've been told that it means that they don't threatennon-Bahais with hellfire for not believing. But then that's exactlywhat is found in the writings of the Bab." Scott: Baha`i's do not "proselytize" in the normal sense. We do not present information or material without a willing ear. That seems to be the key difference. As to the Writings of the Bab, the Writings of baha`u'llah abrogate several of those ordinances. Even in the day of the Bab hardly any Babis ever read the Bayan. They were far more familiar with the Qayyum'l Asma. So if you want to understand the Revelation of the Bab that is the place to concentrate. Gilberto: "It would be one thing if I were talking to a Unitarian-Universalistwho was criticizing Islam. If they wanted to criticize jihad, or theconcept of the Fire, or Islamic attitudes towards gender, I wouldstill probably disagree with them. And they would probably disagreewith me. But I'm more certain that I could trust them to believe whatthey say they believe." Scott I would submit that not understanding what someone believes does not mean that they are inconsistent in their beliefs. Consistency is the thing that attracted me most to the faith. Now, one believer's understanding may be different than another's. Gilberto: "For example, the Bahai faith says very beautiful things about Allah,and the Quran, and Muhammad and the Imams. I agree. And that's verynice. The Bahai faith also says some very harsh things about Muslims.Both sides of that are necessary to get a full picture. If you justfocus on the negatives, you aren't seeing the whole thing. If you justfocus on the positives, you aren't seeing the whole thing." Scott Baha`u'llah speaks respectfully of all the Messengers. He also points out that when a new Messenger appears the clergy of the previous faith become very hostile and are largely responsible for keeping the people from accepting the new Messenger. Abdu'l Baha speaks harshly of the Jews who led the fight against Jesus and contributed to His ultimate faith. To the extent that they misled the people they are responsible for their own actions. In the light of what they did do, those actions are not to be approved. Is that harsh? Truth is truth. If one accepts that Baha`u'llah and Abdu'l Baha are speaking truth then why do they speak harshly? To prevent others from committing the errors of the past. That is a good reason, not a harsh reason. In my opinion, of course. Gilberto: "Gilberto:I agree its strong, but I don't think I would want to make apolologiesfor that. I might try to be tactful and not have the verse written inneon caligraphy during a Jewish-Muslim interfaith get-together, but Idon't think it should be hidden. The Quran has some beautiful thingsto say about Jews and Christians. It also has some harsh things to sayabout Jews and Christians. It has some harsh things to say about Arabsand hypocritical "Muslims" too. And for me personally, what makes the"harshness" okay is that it is all has a context. Everything isbalanced. And to be honest, I find the tone really refreshingsometimes." Scott: Yet you condemn the figures of the Baha`i Revelation from speaking in the same tone for the same purpose? I find that inconsistent.
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
In a message dated 12/21/2004 10:17:55 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Scott, What are you talking about? The Hands did not make any decision that women could not serve. That had already been determined by Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. I agree to this extent: The Hands were in charge they chose to follow the guidance of Abdu'l Baha and the instructions of Baha`u'llah. The point remains that they CHOSE to do so. If they had opened the election of the UHJ to women and themselves, who would have said "NO!". The fact that they exercised their trust in such an exemplary fashion is testimony to their dedication to the cause. It does not alter the fact that they COULD have done differently and created, perhaps, scores of breaches within the Cause of God at the same time. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Gilberto: Bahais claim that they don't prosyletize. And when I've looked into an explanation I've been told that it means that they don't threaten non-Bahais with hellfire for not believing. But then that's exactly what is found in the writings of the Bab. Patti: I agree that there is a problem here. I've always winced when I hear Baha'is say that we don't proselytise, because a dictionary description (that is the one associated in my mind with the word) is: proselytise v : convert to another faith or religion [syn: proselytise] When we carry out teaching campaigns to share the faith we are certainly hoping that people will convert; however, I think that the problem is mainly just that many Baha'is don't understand this definition of proselytize (which is my primary definition and the reason I wince when someone tells a seeker that Baha'is do not proselytise). It is clear in the guidance from Shoghi Effendi that we should not aggressively proselytize, i.e. put people under undue pressure or threaten them with eternal hellfire. There is a big distinction between this and simply sharing the Faith and explaining it to people who are interested. Also, touching on another aspect of this thread, please note that (at least) from a Baha'i viewpoint it's a totally different thing for a Manifestation of God (i.e. Mohammad, the Bab, or Baha'u'llah) to threaten hellfire than it is for a human. The Manifestations are the only ones with the authority to judge. I think that most religious leaders, and most people for that matter, have a mix of good qualities and bad qualities. And., im the praises or condemnations of the Manifestations for a class of religious leaders, I think most fall somewhere in the middle. I suspect that there are very few who deserve complete condemnation and few who are truly and unequivocally Holy, but that in some cases the passages or praise or condemnation are directed at those extremes. In sharing the faith with others we, as individuals, have no authority to judge or threaten another. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:17:09 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: The Bahai faith says that the law of holy war has been blotted from the book. But then in the Bahai writings I read about the Bahai concept of righteous warfare. Those aren't holy wars, Gilberto. A Holy War is waged in defense of religion, not ones country. I don't think the Bahai writings limit the application of righteous warfare to only fighting for a country. If we focus on one passage, we'd even read: A conquest can be a praiseworthy thing, and there are times when war becomes the powerful basis of peace, and ruin the very means of reconstruction. If, for example, a high-minded sovereign marshals his troops to block the onset of the insurgent and the aggressor, or again, if he takes the field and distinguishes himself in a struggle to unify a divided state and people, if, in brief, he is waging war for a righteous purpose, then this seeming wrath is mercy itself, and this apparent tyranny the very substance of justice and this warfare the cornerstone of peace. Today, the task befitting great rulers is to establish universal peace, for in this lies the freedom of all peoples. -- The Secret of Divine Civilization, pp. 70-71. The text gives examples of what might constitute a righteous purpose but nothing here limits righteous purpose to only particicular kinds of activities. Also, why couldn't warfare in defense of religion be included under the principle of hikmat? PEace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
To just say we believe in absolute gender equality and leave it at that seems dishonest. Dear Gilberto, Somehow you have a knack for overstating the Baha'i position so that it no longers resembles anything we actually said. The term 'absolute' is yours, not ours. What we are arguing is that the Baha'i Faith teaches the equality of women and men in those areas which really matter. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying collective security is necessarily some evil doctrine but it certainly isn't pacifism. We never claimed to be pacifists. And I'm still unclear on the exact way it is different from a true understanding of jihad. A jihad in Muhammad's time signified warfare to defend ones religion. This is what is disallowed in this Dispensation. 've tried to make this point elsewhere but even according to Bahai faith in Some Answered Questions Abdul Baha says that the jihads of Muhammad (Saaws) were defensive. That is true. But wars to defend our religion are forbidden. What did Muhammad or Hussein do in their day which wouldn't be permitted to Bahais today? Their enemies were trying to kill them. We will die rather than kill in the name of religion. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
In a message dated 12/21/2004 11:33:21 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Scott. A lot of people.It was understood that the Hands were not infallible, nor was their authorityall that clear in terms of the Covenant.If they had attempted to do something which so clearlyflew in the face of the Guardian'sown authoritative interpretations there would have been a massive outcry. warmest, Susan And if they had done so, it would have been disastrous for the Cause. That the Hands behaved so impeccably is what I treasure. The Cause was in their hands, so to speak, and they protected it without advancing their own egos in the process. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
Our dear brother Gilberto [I say our dear Gilberto because in the Name of God I feel very close to you and your essay today [the first in the thread of Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace] is quite a remarkable one. With every letter of yours [addressed to my lowly self personally] my respect for you grows. You have a sense of humour as well as fairness. I liked particularly what you wrote here at the end ** Gilberto: But there are ALOT of religions out there. If you looked at all the religions of the world and decided to thoroughly completely investigate their claims then you would never finish. If you happened to go in reverse alphabetical order you could read for several lifetimes before getting to the Bahá'ís. ** I really liked this :) You also said dear Gilberto I do hope all the killing stops in Iraq. There is a passage of a poem by John Donne which I wish a lot more government leaders took to heart: Each man's death diminishes me, For I am involved in mankind. Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls, It tolls for thee. Actually, that is interesting. Your kind words made me think about something. The Bahá'ís say that the whole world is a country and mankind are its citizens. So how does that work out in terms of how Bahá'ís see the world? And current events? Peace Gilberto This is very very important all that you wrote here. But one thing that is clear is you often write Bahá'ís say...How do Bahá'ís view...? Can I beg you something? Can I plead humbly with you something? Dear Gilbert Can I ask you something precious Firstly one must read the sources and then by all means consort with Baha'I discourse amongst us fallible limited contingent beings. You are a quick reader. I reckon you read faster than me definitely. So why do you not read the Dawn Breakers' over a weekend? And then these three books which I have read dozens of times but which I need to read again and again the Gleanings, the Iqan, and the World Order Letters of the Guardian and then two essays by the Universal House of Justice The Promise of World Peace and the Message to Religious Leaders I swear by Allah subh.aanahu wa ta.aalaa and I swear by all the love in my heart for the Prophet Muhammad Mustapha and His martyred Grandson the Unique Imam Husayn so many things will be clear to you as daylight and you would not have to worry about the vagaries the vicissitudes of opinion. This advice to go to the texts is given so often in this Day as indeed in the Day of the Prophet. On a smaller point you write But today The other twenty-five letters of all knowledge have been revealed to mankind whereas only two letters had been revealed previously. [multiple references in the textbooks of Islamic hadiths such as the Bihar] What do the letters represent? The above just sounds like unsubstantiated braggingGilberto Dear Brother This is not bragging. The Imam S.aadeq [the 6th Imam ] as quoted in several Books the Bih.aar ul Anwaar [Ocean of Lights] is on the net the Imam S.aadeq [quoting that which He heard from His Sanctified Fathers and Ancestors Whose Holy Lineage goes to the Prophet [Peace and Salutation be upon Him] said ** Knowledge is twenty and seven letters. All that the Prophets have revealed are two letters thereof. No man thus far hath known more than these two letters. But when the Qa'im shall arise, He will cause the remaining twenty and five letters to be made manifest. This is from that Sacred Utterance of the Imam. I shall come back to it later. But I beseech you to ponder my earlier pleading to go to the texts. [as indeed I do and that is why large sections of the Holy Qur'an are memorized in my humble mind] In the meantime I have printed your letter, taking it with me to work and thinking of it http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu/msg01691.html your brother sending his warmest regards and desperately praying for peace [the true salaam] khazeh The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly - their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, UNLESS AND UNTIL HE CEASES TO REGARD THE WORDS and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 3-4)
Re: Not Exhausted
Gilberto: Just a few issues around the question of Biblical corruption: [2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. [end quote] Patti: One place you could look is in Gems of Divine Mysteries (http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GDM/gdm-3.html) by Baha'u'llah. It was originally written in Arabic, previously I steered you toward Seven Valleys, but I think perhaps you would prefer Gems. Here are a some passages from Gems regarding the issue of Biblical corruption. Paragraph 13: And should they reply: The Books that are in the hands of this people, which they call the Gospel and attribute to Jesus, the Son of Mary, have not been revealed by God and proceed not from the Manifestations of His Self, then this would imply a cessation in the abounding grace of Him Who is the Source of all grace. If so, God's testimony to His servants would have remained incomplete and His favour proven imperfect. His mercy would not have shone resplendent, nor would His grace have overshadowed all. For if at the ascension of Jesus His Book had likewise ascended unto heaven, then how could God reprove and chastise the people on the Day of Resurrection, as hath been written by the Imáms of the Faith and affirmed by its illustrious divines? Paragraphs 21-24: Having imparted unto thee, beneath countless veils of concealment, certain hidden mysteries, We now return to Our elucidation of the Books of old, that perchance thy feet may not slip and thou mayest receive with complete certitude the portion which We shall bestow upon thee of the billowing oceans of life in the realm of the names and attributes of God. It is recorded in all the Books of the Gospel that He Who is the Spirit spoke in words of pure light unto His disciples, saying: Know that heaven and earth may pass away, but my words shall never pass away. As is clear and evident to thine eminence, these words outwardly mean that the Books of the Gospel will remain in the hands of people till the end of the world, that their laws shall not be abrogated, that their testimony shall not be abolished, and that all that hath been enjoined, prescribed, or ordained therein shall endure forever. O My brother! Sanctify thy heart, illumine thy soul, and sharpen thy sight, that thou mayest perceive the sweet accents of the Birds of Heaven and the melodies of the Doves of Holiness warbling in the Kingdom of eternity, and perchance apprehend the inner meaning of these utterances and their hidden mysteries. For otherwise, wert thou to interpret these words according to their outward meaning, thou couldst never prove the truth of the Cause of Him Who came after Jesus, nor silence the opponents, nor prevail over the contending disbelievers. For the Christian divines use this verse to prove that the Gospel shall never be abrogated and that, even if all the signs recorded in their Books were fulfilled and the Promised One appeared, He would have no recourse but to rule the people according to the ordinances of the Gospel. They contend that if He were to manifest all the signs indicated in the Books, but decree aught besides that which Jesus had decreed, they would neither acknowledge nor follow Him, so clear and self-evident is this matter in their sight. Thou canst indeed hear the learned and the foolish amongst the people voice the same objections in this day, saying: The sun hath not risen from the West, nor hath the Crier cried out betwixt earth and heaven. Water hath not inundated certain lands; the Dajjál hath not appeared; Sufyání hath not arisen; nor hath the Temple been witnessed in the sun. I heard, with Mine own ears, one of their divines proclaim: Should all these signs come to pass and the long-awaited Qá'im appear, and should He ordain, with respect to even our secondary laws, aught beyond that which hath been revealed in the Qur'án, we would assuredly charge Him with imposture, put Him to death, and refuse forever to acknowledge Him, and other statements such as these deniers make. And all this, when the Day of Resurrection hath been ushered in, and the Trumpet hath been sounded, and all the denizens of earth and heaven have been gathered together, and the Balance hath been appointed, and the Bridge hath been laid, and the Verses have been sent down, and the Sun hath shone forth, and the stars have been blotted out, and the souls have been raised to life, and the breath of the Spirit hath blown, and the angels have been arrayed in ranks, and Paradise hath been brought nigh, and Hell made to blaze! These things have all come to pass, and yet to this day not a single one of these people hath recognized them! They all lie as dead within their own shrouds, save those who have believed and repaired unto God, who rejoice in this day in His celestial paradise, and who tread
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:08:15 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/21/2004 9:31:07 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For example, Bahais say that an important principle of the faith is gender equality. But when I discover all the different ways that the Bahai faith makes distinctions between men and women it makes me feel lied to. Scott I find the question of women's services on the Universal House of justice confusing. But that decision was made first by a group containing a large percentage of women and the decision was unanimous. [...] Gilberto: There are other gender distinctions in the Bahai faith besides just the Universal House of Justice issue although that's obviously a contraversial one. But I'm not even brining up the question of whether the policy is justified. For the sake of argument, let's even assume that it is. If that's the case, then the Bahais should say We believe in certain distinctions between the roles of men and women and we believe that wisdom behind these rules will be apparent at some point in the distant future.. To just say we believe in absolute gender equality and leave it at that seems dishonest. Gilberto: The Bahai faith says that the law of holy war has been blotted from the book. But then in the Bahai writings I read about the Bahai concept of righteous warfare. Scott A nation may defend itself from attack but no other war is acceptable. I'm not convinced that this is true. Under collective security all the nations attack the aggressor, whether they have been attacked individually or not. In some sense the bar for attacking an enemy has been lowered. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying collective security is necessarily some evil doctrine but it certainly isn't pacifism. And I'm still unclear on the exact way it is different from a true understanding of jihad. I've tried to make this point elsewhere but even according to Bahai faith in Some Answered Questions Abdul Baha says that the jihads of Muhammad (Saaws) were defensive. What did Muhammad or Hussein do in their day which wouldn't be permitted to Bahais today? Their enemies were trying to kill them. Gilberto: It would be one thing if I were talking to a Unitarian-Universalist who was criticizing Islam. If they wanted to criticize jihad, or the concept of the Fire, or Islamic attitudes towards gender, I would still probably disagree with them. And they would probably disagree with me. But I'm more certain that I could trust them to believe what they say they believe. Scott I would submit that not understanding what someone believes does not mean that they are inconsistent in their beliefs. Consistency is the thing that attracted me most to the faith. Now, one believer's understanding may be different than another's. Gilberto: I think that's fair. And I've certainly started to realize that individual Bahais will have different takes on the Bahai writings. And some are better at articulating certain doctrines.And different Bahais put the emphasis on different aspects of the writings. But there are cases where the inconsistency I have in mind is a problem but we are talking about the same individual Gilberto: For example, the Bahai faith says very beautiful things about Allah, and the Quran, and Muhammad and the Imams. I agree. And that's very nice. The Bahai faith also says some very harsh things about Muslims. Both sides of that are necessary to get a full picture. If you just focus on the negatives, you aren't seeing the whole thing. If you just focus on the positives, you aren't seeing the whole thing. Scott Baha`u'llah speaks respectfully of all the Messengers. He also points out that when a new Messenger appears the clergy of the previous faith become very hostile and are largely responsible for keeping the people from accepting the new Messenger. Abdu'l Baha speaks harshly of the Jews who led the fight against Jesus and contributed to His ultimate faith. To the extent that they misled the people they are responsible for their own actions. In the light of what they did do, those actions are not to be approved. Is that harsh? Truth is truth. If one accepts that Baha`u'llah and Abdu'l Baha are speaking truth then why do they speak harshly? To prevent others from committing the errors of the past. That is a good reason, not a harsh reason. In my opinion, of course. Gilberto: Gilberto: I agree its strong, but I don't think I would want to make apolologies for that. I might try to be tactful and not have the verse written in neon caligraphy during a Jewish-Muslim interfaith get-together, but I don't think it should be hidden. The Quran has some beautiful things to say about Jews and Christians. It also has some harsh things to say about Jews and Christians. It has some harsh things to say about Arabs and hypocritical Muslims too. And for me personally, what makes the harshness
