Re: Accountability (was:RE: Women in West/Islam)
Gilberto: But in some ways the larger issue is that if Susan hadn't made her comment and I hadn't read similar things elsewhere and I had heard your accusation towards Islam for the first time, then it would have been misleading. I'm ok with the idea that western liberals like the idea of a secular government and are going to have certain qualms about Islamic governments, but if you criticize Islam and give the impression that you would like to see secular governments, when in reality you are just in favor of a different kind of theocracy, that certain gives the impression of being evasive (at best). Dear Gilberto, I think you misunderstood me. I am still in favor of a secular government and my understanding of Baha'i Writings has been such that under a Baha'i government the separation of religion and politics is clear cut. But after reading Susan's comments, I am not so sure if I have been right all these years. Anyway this is not yet so clear for me, I need to study much more to understand what sort of government a Baha'i state in some distant future would have. regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:07:58 +0700, Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: You seem to be suggesting that Muslim countries shouldn't have democracy. On the opposite, I would love to see democracy everywhere with and without Muslim World. You were speaking positively about Turkish secularism (in spite of the fact that the Turkish military respresses Muslims). In alot of parts in the Muslim world, if the governments became more democratic, then that would mean more power for the Islamic parties but you've commented about this as if it were a bad thing. Dear Gilberto, you did not answer my question in the previous email. What I asked is what kind of government a democratic Muslim country should have? Should the constitution of the country be based upon Quran and Islamic Shariah in this government that you would like to have? I think that would be natural except when people say apply the Shariah it should be done intelligently instead of stupidly. I think that in alot of places (like in Afghanistan after the civil war) people were so tired of crime and drugs and chaos that they really wanted order. And so they just wanted some strong leaders to keep the peace. And so people say they want the shariah and typically that means cutting off the hands of theives and stoning adulterers. But the shariah involves many different principles and rules in many areas of life and the system needs to be implemented intelligently. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
Gilberto: You were speaking positively about Turkish secularism (in spite of the fact that the Turkish military respresses Muslims). In alot of parts in the Muslim world, if the governments became more democratic, then that would mean more power for the Islamic parties but you've commented about this as if it were a bad thing. You started talking positively about Turkey first by saying that women have equal rights in Turkey, Egypt, and a few other countries. I just suggested the reason for justice and equal rights in Turkey was not due to Islam but to due military and its secular way of government. But my opinion is that if real democracy exist in Muslim countries, Muslim people don't fall into traps of Islamic parties. The reason that in S.A.Saudis are joining extremist is because there is no democracy in SA. The same is true in Turkey. But the overall situation in Turkey is much better because of its secular way of government and leaving aside Shariah laws. I think that would be natural except when people say apply the Shariah it should be done intelligently instead of stupidly. I think that in alot of places (like in Afghanistan after the civil war) people were so tired of crime and drugs and chaos that they really wanted order. And so they just wanted some strong leaders to keep the peace. And so people say they want the shariah and typically that means cutting off the hands of theives and stoning adulterers. But the shariah involves many different principles and rules in many areas of life and the system needs to be implemented intelligently. As far as I know majority of people in Afghanistan are happier now than under Taliban. And I am not sure what you mean to implement Shariah laws intelligently. A law is a law, how in Shariah one's hand should not be cut if he steals something, In a few of countries with Shariah law, 9 years girls are being raped and then stoned to death for committing adultery. Can the minimum age for marriage of girls be changed under Shariah from 9 years old to say 15 years old? How about if a father decides to wed his young 9 years old daughter to a rich man almost the same age as himself? I believe there are so many laws in Shariah which are not compatible with democracy. regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Accountability (was:RE: Women in West/Islam)
Dear Susan, FirouzIslamic governments and Islamic parties say that they are just accountable to God not to people.Susan Don't we say the same thing about own institutions? Yes, we do. But the Baha'i institutions exist, and operate based on the explicit, written statements of Baha'u'llah or His successors. Can Islam make the analogous claim? Tim Nolan Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Accountability (was:RE: Women in West/Islam)
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:22:20 -0800 (PST), Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Susan, FirouzIslamic governments and Islamic parties say that they are just accountable to God not to people. Susan Don't we say the same thing about own institutions? Yes, we do. But the Baha'i institutions exist, and operate based on the explicit, written statements of Baha'u'llah or His successors. Can Islam make the analogous claim? But in some ways the larger issue is that if Susan hadn't made her comment and I hadn't read similar things elsewhere and I had heard your accusation towards Islam for the first time, then it would have been misleading. I'm ok with the idea that western liberals like the idea of a secular government and are going to have certain qualms about Islamic governments, but if you criticize Islam and give the impression that you would like to see secular governments, when in reality you are just in favor of a different kind of theocracy, that certain gives the impression of being evasive (at best). Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Accountability (was:RE: Women in West/Islam)
But the Baha'i institutions exist, and operate based on the explicit, written statements of Baha'u'llah or His successors. Can Islam make the analogous claim? Analogous, yes, but obviously not the same. But perhaps in the same since that Christian claims to finality are analogous to Muslim claims. ;-} __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Accountability (was:RE: Women in West/Islam)
G: But in some ways the larger issue is that if Susan hadn't made hercomment and I hadn't read similar things elsewhere and I had heardyour accusation towards Islam for the first time, then it would havebeen misleading. I'm "ok" with the idea that western liberals like theidea of a secular government and are going to have certain qualmsabout Islamic governments, but if you criticize Islam and give theimpression that you would like to see secular governments, when inreality you are just in favor of a different kind of theocracy, thatcertain gives the impression of being evasive (at best).J: Baha'is really aren't bad people, trust me. The person you are refering to had incorrect information or a difference of opinion about the Baha'i teachings. Read Susan's emails about the Baha'i view on theocracy, it is spelled out pretty clearly and in detail, including quotes for Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice. Let me summarize this key point from a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi for clarification, if you don't have time to read them yourself (btw, my paraphrasing and cutting and pasting may be incorrect, but this is how I understood it, so forgive me if the cut and paste totally messes up the meaning of it): 1) Christianity and Islam"The Catholic Church and the Caliphate" were not directly sanctioned by Muhammad or by Christ. Therefore they are "not divinely given" and are considered to be "man-made". However, since they are "partly derived from the teachings of Christ and Muhammad", they are "in a sense theocracies." 2) Baha'i Faith"The Baha'i theocracy, on the contrary, is both divinely ordained as a system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet (Baha'u'llah) Himself." What does Shoghi Effendi mean by saying that the Baha'i theocracy is (1) divinely ordained and (2) based on the teachings of Baha'u'llah? He is refering to specific verses from Baha'u'llah's writings (among others). As you already know, neither Christianity nor Islam has writings from the Bible nor the Qur'an that directly point to who has divine authority to guide or govern the people. Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page Try My Yahoo! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:16:54 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/12/2005 7:44:01 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Christians have a similar relation to the Jewish scriptures. This is because the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible. Yes . . . and . . . no. Most Jews will tell you that the Christian Old Testament is based upon a Greek translation of the Hebrew text that is insufficiently accurate. Many Catholic and Orthodox Bibles I think are based on the Septuigant (the Greek translation you are talking about). But there are also Christians who base their translations on the Hebrew texts. In any case, except for strange groups who said that the King JAmes translation into English is somehow especially sanctioned by God, I'm not sure any Christian groups would actually insist that a particular translation is holier than another. So even those Christians who use translations based on the Septuigant, I think they would realize that the original Old Testament is in Hebrew and that the original texts are inspired. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:23:41 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/12/2005 7:44:01 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ok. But when it comes to interpreting equality of women in the Quran, I've noticed several Bahais not engage in the same kind of effort. Instead of saying how the Quran can be read on multiple levels they would rather have an insulting view of God, and believe that God endorsed wife-beating, and so then it becomes an excuse to get rid of Islam and replace it with something else. When if you didn't want to have an insulting view of God, another approach would be to point out that just as seal might mean something other than last in Arabic, that daraba can mean many other things besides beat. It's even used in multiple ways in the Quran itself. the word daraba which some people translate as beat actually I mentioned the Aur'anic license to beat wives for a purpose, but it was not to demean Islam. The limitation on ill-treatment of wives was a geometric progression forthebenefit of women in the time of Muhammed. There were no such restrictions on husbands before Muhammed. All three of these translations seem to agree on the meaning of 'daraba'. As does Rodwell to the best of my recollection. All three of which translations. And why would you care about what the consensus of translations says now? I Peace Gilberto -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
Gilberto: And it is clear that in certain parts of the Muslim world, the people there clearly want religious parties to have a greater role in the government because they see the secular governments as corrupt and not promoting their interests. That's true to some extent. How about when the Islamic governments or Islamic paries are corrupt? I would rather see people trying to promote good government in the region. Less authoritarianism, more freedom of expression. It seems to me that all Islamic government are suppressing freedom of expression and freedom of religions. Compare Turkey with Iran or SA. The government should be more accountable to their citizens. As long as that's what you are really talking about I think that would be a good thing. But if you don't really care about that and are trying to impose secularism on religious populations then you are promoting oppression of Muslims and I'd have little sympathy. Islamic governments and Islamic parties say that they are just accountable to God not to people. Maybe it was just how I was taught in school or something. I learned to respect the democratic process more than the result. I mean, if we really believe all those pretty words about one man, one vote and how government rests on the consent of the governed, etc.then we should support democracy even if we don't like the result. I do agree here with you. Democracy is important for me too. But it seems to me that Islamic democracy is not the same as U.S. of America democracy. Muslim government think that they are right and they do not accept any sort of opposition. Let me just ask you one question, what do you mean by an Islamic country? Does it have to follow Sharia in its entirely? Do you mean a government with civil laws that respect Muslim rights to follow freely what Islam teaches. I am not sure what is your understanding of a good Islamic country. regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Women in West/Islam
Islamic governments and Islamic parties say that they are just accountable to God not to people. Dear Firouz, Don't we say the same thing about own institutions? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
Islamic governments and Islamic parties say that they are just accountable to God not to people. Dear Firouz, Don't we say the same thing about own institutions? warmest, Susan Dear Susan, Yes, The Universal House of Justice is accountable to God on religious matters but not on political matters. But it seems most (if not all) Islamic institutions and parties consider themselves accountable to God on all matters and specially religion and politics. The separation of religion from politics in Islam is not so clear. regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Women in West/Islam
Yes, The Universal House of Justice is accountable to God on religious matters but not on political matters. Dear Firouz, Where in the Writings is that distinction made? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Women in West/Islam
The separation of religion from politics in Islam is not so clear. Dear Firouz, I don't really see any clear distinction between religion and politics in the Baha'i Teachings either accept that matters of legislation rest with our elected Assemblies, not the Learned. Abdu'l-Baha insisted that the clergy should be separate from the state, but Baha'u'llah placed political affairs (amr siyast) in the hands of the House of Justice. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
Dear Firouz, I don't really see any clear distinction between religion and politics in the Baha'i Teachings either accept that matters of legislation rest with our elected Assemblies, not the Learned. Abdu'l-Baha insisted that the clergy should be separate from the state, but Baha'u'llah placed political affairs (amr siyast) in the hands of the House of Justice. Dear Susan, The question is what exactly Baha'u'llah meant by umur-i siyasiyyah. My understanding is that the word siyasat in 19th century (and early 20th century) Persian and Arabic means leadership and not politics as it is commonly used. The 1943 translation of the eighth Ishraq in the Baha'i World Faith reads: Administrative affair are all in charge of the House of Justice, and devotional acts must be observed according as they are revealed in the Book. This is a translation by Ali Kuli Khan in 1906. Baha'u'llah also states in Lawh-i Dunya: According to the fundamental laws which We have formerly revealed in the Kitab-i-Aqdas and other Tablets, all affairs are committed to the care of just kings and presidents and of the Trustees of the House of Justice. ... The system of government which the British people have adopted in London appeareth to be good, for it is adorned with the light of both kingship and of the consultation of the people. This tells us that Baha'u'llah understood the tablets that give authority to the House of Justice and those that give it to the Kings and rulers to be complementary, and that his understanding of the authority given to the House of Justice did not seem to him contradictory to praising the British form of government (monarchy, elected parliament, established church). He then goes on speak of the relationship between religion and government, saying that laws rest on penalties (the state relies on coercion) whereas religion gives us the inner motivation to do good and avoid evil. Abdu'l-Baha further in Treastise on Leadership states that : The function of the religious leaders and the duties of the clerical jurisprudents are to attend to spiritual affairs and to promulgate divine attributes. Whenever the leaders of the manifest religion and the pillars of the mighty divine law have intervened in the world of political leadership, put forward their rulings and attempted to manage affairs, it has ever caused the unity of the believers in the one true God to be destroyed, and resulted in the dispersal of the faithful into factions. The flames of turmoil flared up, and the blaze of rebelliousness scorched the world. The country was plundered and pillaged, and the people became the prisoners and hostages of oppressors. From all above and many other Baha'i texts personally I conclude the separation of Church and State is very clear in Baha'i Faith. Why should there be a World Tribunal if all maters of politics to be referred to UHJ? Best regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:09:33 +0700, Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: Personally, I think that if you are in a country where the majority of the population are religious Muslims and they have a good democratic-type government which respects the will of the people and is accountable, then Islamic values and principles would naturally be incorporated into the structure of the government and the society. And there is more than one way which that can happen and there is more than one way that can look like. Can you give an example of any Muslim country as you ideally define above today? I don't think any country (Muslim or not) will be ideal. But that's what I would like to see other countries move towards. Secularization in Muslim countries seems to take place as the result of force and repression. So I'm wary if you are somehow holding it up as a model. The populations of many of these countries are religious Muslims and so if you democratize and had governments which were more inclusive and responsive to popular will, I suspect that in alot of places religious leaders might have more influence in government, not less. Turkey is as secular as it is because the military undemocratically represses the Islamic parties. http://www.religioscope.com/articles/2002/017_turkey_elect.htm A few years back Algeria was going to have elections where everyone knew that the Islamic party was going to win, until the military stepped in to stop the elections. Not that I'm an expert but it looks like a similar story can be told in Iraq. Sistani is a popular leader whose voice is listened to by many and its looking as if under democratic elections, and it seems like the religious parties are popular and will have a strong role in whatever government gets elected. Peace GIlberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
G: I don't think any country (Muslim or not) will be ideal. J: Itdoes appear thatnon-Muslim countries are more ideal that Muslim countries, doesn't it? Why is that? Could it be that Muslim law is not suitable for today'sWorld governance? Could it be that God sent Baha'u'llah with an administration as a guide for the people to create the ideal country? G: But that's what I would like to see other countries move towards. J: With the help ofGod alone can we get there. Praised be God for unveiling His Baha. G: Secularization in Muslim countries seems to take place as the result of force andrepression. J: It is funny that you are preaching the Good in Muslim countries, while Baha'is are being imprisoned, prevented from going to University, cannot get a decent job, even killed in Iran. A Baha'i cannot even practice his religion inmost Muslim countries. G: The populations of many of these countries are religious Muslims andso if you "democratize" and had governments which were more inclusiveand responsive to popular will, I suspect that in alot of placesreligious leaders might have more influence in government, not less. J: How unfortunate for Baha'is if it be so.G: Turkey is as secular as it is because the military undemocraticallyrepresses the Islamic parties. J: A good thing for the protection of people who are not Muslims, like Baha'is. You don't think that if Islamic parties won the election there, they would stop all Baha'i activities and overtake all Baha'i holy sites, do you? Hmm... let me think about it. G: Sistani is a popular leader whose voice is listened to bymany and its looking as if under democratic elections, and it seemslike the religious parties are popular and will have a strong role inwhatever government gets elected. J: Sistani would probably skin the Baha'is alive if he had the chance. I pray for a secular Iraq so that the Baha'i Pilgrimage to the House of Baha'u'llah in Baghdad may be possible. If Iran is a model, an Islamic Iraq may even tear down the Baha'i holy sites. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
Gilberto: I don't think any country (Muslim or not) will be ideal. But that's what I would like to see other countries move towards. Secularization in Muslim countries seems to take place as the result of force and repression. So I'm wary if you are somehow holding it up as a model. What is forcing Iranian People to wish for secularization? It seems to me that Sharia laws are very undemocratic for today's world or in other words Islamic laws cannot go hand in hand with ideals of democracy. That's why we cannot find and will not find a just society under Islamic Sharia in this age. It did work well during the dispensation of Muhammad but not in 20th century and beyond. Turkey is as secular as it is because the military undemocratically represses the Islamic parties. http://www.religioscope.com/articles/2002/017_turkey_elect.htm Thanks to military in Turkey which has kept Turkey the most advanced and civilized Muslim country. Many Muslim clergy there would like to establish a Taliban like government in Turkey and revive the past Ottoman empire. A few years back Algeria was going to have elections where everyone knew that the Islamic party was going to win, until the military stepped in to stop the elections. I believe in many Muslim countries including Algeria if real democracy and justice exists, people don't like to join extreme Islamic militia. The clergy in many of Muslim countries are telling lies to their people to attract them to fanatic and fundamentalist aspect of Islam. Personally I am happy for Algeria for not having an Islamic country under Sharia. Not that I'm an expert but it looks like a similar story can be told in Iraq. Sistani is a popular leader whose voice is listened to by many and its looking as if under democratic elections, and it seems like the religious parties are popular and will have a strong role in whatever government gets elected. Most Shia religious parties in Iraq are supported by Iran. They want to set up a puppet Shiia government in Iraq. I sincerely hope that Shiia parties in Iraq supported by Iran could not win the election. They will create hell for their Sunni brothers. Sunnis in Iraq know this well and that's why the majority of Sunnis are boycotting the election. Actually Sistani is one of the few clergy who is in favor of separation of religion from politics. regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:04:16 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G: I don't think any country (Muslim or not) will be ideal. J: It does appear that non-Muslim countries are more ideal that Muslim countries, doesn't it? Why is that? Because during the Age of Discovery and Exploration and during the colonial period Western countries extracted resources and labor from much of what is now the developing world. Could it be that Muslim law is not suitable for today's World governance? This line of argument strikes me as really really bizzare coming from Bahais. According to the Bahai faith, Christianity is even more out of date and unsuitable than Islam. And Christianity is actually dying in Europe and the people there are becoming rejecting religion more and more. So what exactly do you think Western technological and material advances prove? What kind of model do they point to? Are technological and material advances ANY kind of proof of spiritual validity anyway? G: Secularization in Muslim countries seems to take place as the result of force and repression. J: It is funny that you are preaching the Good in Muslim countries, while Baha'is are being imprisoned, prevented from going to University, cannot get a decent job, even killed in Iran. A Baha'i cannot even practice his religion in most Muslim countries. And you are acting as if I think that is a good thing. The question is how should these problems be dealt with? And you seem to think the answer is to get rid of or at least repress Islam. G: The populations of many of these countries are religious Muslims and so if you democratize and had governments which were more inclusive and responsive to popular will, I suspect that in alot of places religious leaders might have more influence in government, not less. J: How unfortunate for Baha'is if it be so. The way you are conceiving the problem doesn't allow for any kind of unity or compromise. G: Turkey is as secular as it is because the military undemocratically represses the Islamic parties. J: A good thing for the protection of people who are not Muslims, like Baha'is. You don't think that if Islamic parties won the election there, they would stop all Baha'i activities and overtake all Baha'i holy sites, do you? Hmm... let me think about it. You are not going to get any sympathy if the way you are suggesting we should deal with this problem by discriminating against Muslims. Turkish women can't wear hijab in many public venues. Religious Muslims in Turkey are weeded out from the higher ranks of the army. I recently spoke with a Muslim friend who was with the US military in Iraq and he was telling me how the Turkish soldiers weren't allowed to pray in the mosques in Baghdad. This issue comes up in different forms and its sad. In the west democracy seems to lead towards secularism. But in the Muslim world, democracy would lead to a greater role for Islam. And so because Western countries don't want to see that happen, they sacrifice spreading democracy for imposing secularism. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
G:And Christianity is actually dying in Europe and the people there are becoming rejecting religion more and more. So what exactly do you think Western technological and material advances prove? What kind of model do they point to?Are technological and material advances ANY kind of proof of spiritualvalidity anyway? J:Technological advances prove the vitality and power of the mind. ' "Before all else, God created the mind." From the dawn of creation, it was made to be revealed in the temple of man. ' -Abdu'l-Baha ' Consider carefully: all these highly varied phenomena, these concepts, this knowledge, these technical procedures and philosophical systems, these sciences, arts, industries and inventions--all are emanations of the HUMAN MIND. WHATEVER PEOPLE has ventured deeper into this shoreless sea, has come to EXCEL THE REST. The happiness and pride of a nation consist in this, that it should shine out like the sun in the high heaven of knowledge. "Shall they who have knowledge and they who have it not, be treated alike?"(Qur'an 39:12) ' -Abdu'l-Baha ' Have they forgotten the celebrated hadíth (Holy Tradition): Seek after knowledge, even unto China? It is certain that the people of China were, in the sight of God, among the most rejected of men, because they worshiped idols and were unmindful of the omniscient Lord. The Europeans are at least Peoples of the Book, and believers in God and specifically referred to in the sacred verse, Thou shalt certainly find those to be nearest in affection to the believers, who say, We are Christians. It is therefore quite permissible and indeed more appropriate to acquire knowledge from Christian countries. How could seeking after knowledge among the heathen be acceptable to God, and seeking it among the People of the Book be repugnant to Him? ' -Abdu'l-Baha G: The populations of many of these countries are religious Muslims and so if you "democratize" and had governments which were more inclusive and responsive to popular will, I suspect that in alot of places religious leaders might have more influence in government, not less. J: How unfortunate for Baha'is if it be so.G: The way you are conceiving the problem doesn't allow for any kind ofunity or compromise. J: We would love to be in unity with the Muslims around the world. Will you and yourbrothers accept me if I told you nothing you can do will shake my belief thatBaha'u'llah is the Lord of the Day of Judgement? We sure accept you because we accept the Prophet Muhammad and His Book the Qur'an. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:47:56 +0700, Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I don't think any country (Muslim or not) will be ideal. But that's what I would like to see other countries move towards. Secularization in Muslim countries seems to take place as the result of force and repression. So I'm wary if you are somehow holding it up as a model. What is forcing Iranian People to wish for secularization? It seems to me that Sharia laws are very undemocratic for today's world or in other words Islamic laws cannot go hand in hand with ideals of democracy. I don't see how there is enough information to really say that. It's not like the secular regimes in the Middle East are bastions of democracy either. And it is clear that in certain parts of the Muslim world, the people there clearly want religious parties to have a greater role in the government because they see the secular governments as corrupt and not promoting their interests. I would rather see people trying to promote good government in the region. Less authoritarianism, more freedom of expression. The government should be more accountable to their citizens. As long as that's what you are really talking about I think that would be a good thing. But if you don't really care about that and are trying to impose secularism on religious populations then you are promoting oppression of Muslims and I'd have little sympathy. Turkey is as secular as it is because the military undemocratically represses the Islamic parties. http://www.religioscope.com/articles/2002/017_turkey_elect.htm Thanks to military in Turkey which has kept Turkey the most advanced and civilized Muslim country. Many Muslim clergy there would like to establish a Taliban like government in Turkey and revive the past Ottoman empire.\ That would only work if the democratically elected representatives in the Turkish parliament wanted to have a Taliban-like government. If a country actually has a fair election and the Taliban win, then why shouldn't they form a government? In any case, I think you are just using the Taliban as a boogey-man. The religious parties weren't going to ban music and keep people from flying kites and make the women wear burqas. Religious women in Turkey are still working on being allowed to wear hijab instead of being forced not to. A few years back Algeria was going to have elections where everyone knew that the Islamic party was going to win, until the military stepped in to stop the elections. I believe in many Muslim countries including Algeria if real democracy and justice exists, people don't like to join extreme Islamic militia. I think I could agree with that. I'm not trying to defend extreme Islamic militias. The clergy in many of Muslim countries are telling lies to their people to attract them to fanatic and fundamentalist aspect of Islam. Personally I am happy for Algeria for not having an Islamic country under Sharia. And if you were Algerian and had a chance to vote in that election which was stopped, you would have gotten your one vote, but bulk of the rest of the Algerians would have outvoted you and you would have a democratic government where the Islamic political parties would have had a strong voice. Maybe it was just how I was taught in school or something. I learned to respect the democratic process more than the result. I mean, if we really believe all those pretty words about one man, one vote and how government rests on the consent of the governed, etc.then we should support democracy even if we don't like the result. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:16:33 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G: And Christianity is actually dying in Europe and the people there are becoming rejecting religion more and more. So what exactly do you think Western technological and material advances prove? What kind of model do they point to? Are technological and material advances ANY kind of proof of spiritual validity anyway? J: Technological advances prove the vitality and power of the mind. ' Before all else, God created the mind. From the dawn of creation, it was made to be revealed in the temple of man. ' -Abdu'l-Baha Sure, The first thing created by God was the Intellect (Prophetic hadith) I guess there might be a question of what kind of knowledge and what kind of intellect is more important, And what kind of knowledge is related to spirituality. ' Consider carefully: all these highly varied phenomena, these concepts, this knowledge, these technical procedures and philosophical systems, these sciences, arts, industries and inventions--all are emanations of the HUMAN MIND. WHATEVER PEOPLE has ventured deeper into this shoreless sea, has come to EXCEL THE REST. The happiness and pride of a nation consist in this, that it should shine out like the sun in the high heaven of knowledge. Shall they who have knowledge and they who have it not, be treated alike?(Qur'an 39:12) ' -Abdu'l-Baha (I think the Quranic reference numbers is the wrong one but yes I've read similar things in the Quran. But again, I'm not convinced that the primary meaning is that countries with microwave ovens and cell phones are supposed to be spiritually more advanced than the countries which don't. ' Have they forgotten the celebrated hadíth (Holy Tradition): Seek after knowledge, even unto China? It is certain that the people of China were, in the sight of God, among the most rejected of men, because they worshiped idols and were unmindful of the omniscient Lord. Gilberto: I actually wouldn't say that. Buddhism and Taoism would have been growing in China by then and I wouldn't just want to dismiss those beliefs as simple idolatry. I'm not saying that the hadith excludes seek worldly secular knowledge. A Muslim should seek all kinds of knowledge, both sacred and secular. But that's besides the point. All I'm saying is that secular knowledge doesn't prove spiritual superiority. G: The populations of many of these countries are religious Muslims and so if you democratize and had governments which were more inclusive and responsive to popular will, I suspect that in alot of places religious leaders might have more influence in government, not less. J: How unfortunate for Baha'is if it be so. G: The way you are conceiving the problem doesn't allow for any kind of unity or compromise. J: We would love to be in unity with the Muslims around the world. Will you and your brothers accept me if I told you nothing you can do will shake my belief that Baha'u'llah is the Lord of the Day of Judgement? We sure accept you because we accept the Prophet Muhammad and His Book the Qur'an. I can accept you as an individual regardless of what you believe. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
G: I guess there might be a question of what kind of knowledge and whatkind of intellect is more important, And what kind of knowledge isrelated to spirituality. J:I would say thatreligion is necessary for the advancement of material civilization, spiritual civilization, as well as the progress of the individual.G: I think the Quranic reference numbers is the wrong one but yes I'veread similar things in the Quran. But again, I'm not convinced thatthe primary meaning is that countries with microwave ovens and cellphones are supposed to be spiritually more advanced than the countrieswhich don't. J: Just because one is spiritual does not mean that one should through awaythe material. If the material is a substitute for God (i.e. materialism), then if is wrong, I agree.[Regarding China] Gilberto: I actually wouldn't say that. J: Muslims in Iran do say that. Understood, you don't agree with them.G: I can accept you as an individual regardless of what you believe. J: Please pass these good words on to you Muslim brothers and sisters. Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
Gilberto: The rights of Muslim women to property and inheritance, to some protection if divorced, and to the conducting of business, were rights prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, even if they were not everywhere translated into practice. Dear Gilberto, And, interestingly, this is just one of many possible examples why it is necessary for God in His Omnipotence to send progressive revelations through His Manifestations. ...rights prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, even if they were not everywhere translated into practice. We KNOW the PRESCRIPTION of the Divine Physician we don't always take the medicine!! We meaning humanity... You undoubtedly are also aware that Baha'u'llah's revealed prescriptions for this Day were not some dark and hidden secret - certainly not in the Muslim countries during His lifetime. With respect and appreciation of your scholarly endeavours! Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:57:45 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: The rights of Muslim women to property and inheritance, to some protection if divorced, and to the conducting of business, were rights prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, even if they were not everywhere translated into practice. Dear Gilberto, And, interestingly, this is just one of many possible examples why it is necessary for God in His Omnipotence to send progressive revelations through His Manifestations. ...rights prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, even if they were not everywhere translated into practice. We KNOW the PRESCRIPTION of the Divine Physician we don't always take the medicine!! We meaning humanity... But we've always known the prescription. Our souls have the same basic needs. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
In a message dated 1/12/2005 1:53:46 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: rights prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, even if they were not everywhere translated into practice." Wives have the right to be summarily divorced by their husbands. Wives have the right to be beaten by their husbands. These were VAST improvements in the rights of women 1200 years ago. WOmen had the right to be cast out by their husbands without any of their dowry or property BEFORE the Qur'an. Wives had the right to be killed outof hand by their husbands before the Qur'an. These improvements under Islam are progressive, but by today's standards, they are NOT final. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:32:21 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G: I guess there might be a question of what kind of knowledge and what kind of intellect is more important, And what kind of knowledge is related to spirituality. J: I would say that religion is necessary for the advancement of material civilization, spiritual civilization, as well as the progress of the individual. It depends on how you mean. The growth of material civilization should certainly be guided by spiritual principles. Advances in technology (communications, the internet, industrialization, cloning, reproductive technology, etc.) should certainly be guided by moral and ethical considerations. And what you are saying, fine. Let me just say it this way. I get the impression that some Bahais think Western technological and material advances show some kind of Western spiritual superiority over the Muslim world. Is that what you are saying? If not, then we are fine. If so, then I think you are mistaken. [Regarding the Quranic verse Shall they who have knowledge and they who have it not, be treated alike?] Gilberto: I'm not convinced that the primary meaning is that countries with microwave ovens and cell phones are supposed to be spiritually more advanced than the countries which don't. J: Just because one is spiritual does not mean that one should through away the material. Gilberto: Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying to throw away technology and live in a cave somewhere. (or at least if I were going to say that I would probably do it in a hand-written letter instead of on an e-mail list) I'm just saying that technological advances are one thing, spiritual advances are another. And one doesn't prove the other. And I would add that they probably tend to be in a kind of tension rather than going up and down together because there are only so many hours in a day. And so a society where large numbers of people spend time working in labs, doing calculations, programming computers, etc. would tend to leave less time for praying, meditation, acts of charity, etc. And vice versa. [Regarding China] [And whether when the Prophet said Seek knowledge even unto China should that be a special endorsement of technology or does it mean spiritual knowledge. And the argument was that it meant technology because the Chinese are a bunch of pagans and so obviously their religion wasn't intended] Gilberto: I actually wouldn't say that. J: Muslims in Iran do say that. Understood, you don't agree with them. There are actually a whole lot of Chinese Muslims and alot of them didn't just reject the previous Chinese religions (Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism) by just dismissing them outright. There was alot more engagement. There is a book called The Tao of Islam which touches on this. There are alot of examples in Islam about how certain things can be thought of as coming out the interplay between apparent opposites. The right and left hand of God, The jamal and jalal. The tablet and the pen. male and female. heaven and earth. There are interesting ways of relating yin-and-yang to Islamic philsophy. Then there is also a book called Chinese Gleams of Sufi Light which contains translations of Chinese Muslim writings and talks about the history of Islam and China. Another book is called Sufism and Taoism. It just makes sense that *some* prophets were sent to China and that some aspect of their teachings could have survived in the form of their contemporary religions. Personally, I've been wondering whether the I Ching might be an actual scripture. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:15:49 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/12/2005 1:53:46 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: rights prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, even if they were not everywhere translated into practice. Wives have the right to be beaten by their husbands. There are numerous texts in the Quran and hadith where husbands are told to treat their wives kindly and mercifully. And they are told specifically not to beat them. If Bahais can make seal mean something other than last, then you should be able to find ways of understanding the Quran in ways which are consistent with fair, just compassionate treatment of women. ...Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them...(The Noble Quran, 2:231) If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:128) Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139) Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah: I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2138) O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, 'The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab), Volume 8, Book 73, Number 135) Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
G: If Bahais can make "seal" mean something other than last, then you should be able to find ways of understanding the Quran in ways which are consistent with fair, just compassionate treatment of women. J: Gilberto, this is an interesting statement. I have a couple of comments: 1) Do you think we are making 'seal' mean something other than last to *justify* Baha'u'llah? Thefact is that Baha'u'llah stands on His own merits and does need the Qur'an's interpretationforvalidation. Qur'anic proof for Baha'u'llah is the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. Baha'u'llah would still be Baha'u'llah even if He failed to meet *all* the prophecies of the Qur'an, for it would be a test for the people. But don't get me wrong, all the prophecies of the Qur'an do point to Baha'u'llah (but that is not the point). Stated another way, we are not into word games,to try toreinterpret (for the good) the meaning of the Qur'an to prove that women have absolute equality. We are only human, and none of us are interpreters of the Word of God.Baha'is are promoters of the Words of Baha'u'llah, and believe that revelation is progressive, so there is a need for the renewal of God's Law and God's Commandments and God's Word, plain and simple. 2) If you have not gotten the impression yet, Baha'u'llah states that there are always multiple levels of meaning in the words of God. This applies to the equality of men and women, and to the 'seal of the Prophets', and to whether the Manifestation is God, or whether God's religion stays the same over time, or whether all the prophets are one, or whether everything. 3) *ALLVALID* ways of viewing the meaning of the 'seal of the prophets'. 1 - The Last Prophet of all time. In this view, Muhammad as a Manifestation has the same spirit as Baha'u'llah, Jesus, and the very last physical prophet before the Sun goes into a supernova. Therefore, in this sense, since Muhammad is the same spirit as the last prophet to walk the earth in like 100 years or whatever, He is in fact the Last Prophet. 2- The Last Prophet of the Prophetic Cycle. In this view, Muhammad was the last to foretell the coming of the Twin Manifestations the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who opened the Cycle of Fullfillment. 3 -Confirmer/Ratifier/Securer of the Prophets. In this view, Muhammad as the etc. etc. 4- Stamp of the Prophets.In this view, ... I think you get my drift. 5 -End of Nabis. 6 -etc. etc. I am sure you can think of a few more. I am no scholar. 4) The same principle can apply on the question of Women. Yes, on one level, the Qur'an established COMPLETE equality between men and women. On another level, there are marked differences between the sexes. Both are valid, as history has attested to the abuse of Women by the Muslim people as well as other people. The veiling of women may have been a sign of PURITY and CHASTITY and HOLINESS, as nuns are veiled too. But this has been taken advantage of my men in the middle east to batter, put down, and cage women in their own homes. 5) One way or another,nothing changes the fact that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God, and the only one since the coming of Muhammad (except the Bab). He will also be the only Manfiestation of God within the next 800 or so years. How do I know this? Faith in His words, for I am convinced that He is Who He says He is. 6) Baha'u'llah states that Revelation is Progressive, and only God can change people from badto good. Reformers, scholars, and good, honest people like you can, indeed, make a big difference in Islam, and I, and others, praise you for your efforts. But Only God can resurrect the dead, enrich the poor, cure the blind, and heal the leper.God be praisedfor Speaking again to humanity through Him Manifestation Baha'u'llah. Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! What will yours do? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:16:12 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G: If Bahais can make seal mean something other than last, then you should be able to find ways of understanding the Quran in ways which are consistent with fair, just compassionate treatment of women. J: Gilberto, this is an interesting statement. I have a couple of comments: 1) Do you think we are making 'seal' mean something other than last to *justify* Baha'u'llah? The fact is that Baha'u'llah stands on His own merits and does need the Qur'an's interpretation for validation. In some ways, I think so. I wouldn't say that to a Buddhist or a Hindu or a Taoist or a Rastafarian because they are more or less silent about the Quran. But that Bahai faith actually says that it believes in Muhammad as a person sent from God, a Manifestation, and it actually say that the Quran is the absolutely authentic word of God. So if the Quran has a sentence in it which contradicts satatments in the Bahai faith then that is a problem (for the Bahai faith). For the Bahai faith, everything in the Quran is true, so whatever interpretation the verses have, they have to be consistent with the Bahai faith. Christians have a similar relation to the Jewish scriptures. This is because the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible. On the Baha'u'llah would still be Baha'u'llah even if He failed to meet *all* the prophecies of the Qur'an, for it would be a test for the people. If there are clear prophecies in the Quran, and we could agree to how to interpret those prophecies, and Bahaullah failed to meet those prophecies, then that would be a serious contradiction at the foundation of the Bahai faith. Not just a test, but a logical problem. 2) If you have not gotten the impression yet, Baha'u'llah states that there are always multiple levels of meaning in the words of God. This applies to the equality of men and women, and to the 'seal of the Prophets', and to whether the Manifestation is God, or whether God's religion stays the same over time, or whether all the prophets are one, or whether everything. Ok, let's start from that idea. There are multiple levels of meaning in the words of God. I can agree to that. So when it comes to the term seal of the prophets Bahais can get creative (not meaning to be facetious) and come up with all sorts of interpretations of seal other than last. For example: 3) *ALL VALID* ways of viewing the meaning of the 'seal of the prophets'. 1 - The Last Prophet of all time. In this view, Muhammad as a Manifestation has the same spirit as Baha'u'llah, Jesus, and the very last physical prophet before the Sun goes into a supernova. Therefore, in this sense, since Muhammad is the same spirit as the last prophet to walk the earth in like 100 years or whatever, He is in fact the Last Prophet. 2- The Last Prophet of the Prophetic Cycle. In this view, Muhammad was the last to foretell the coming of the Twin Manifestations the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who opened the Cycle of Fullfillment. 3 - Confirmer/Ratifier/Securer of the Prophets. In this view, Muhammad as the etc. etc. 4 - Stamp of the Prophets. In this view, ... I think you get my drift. 5 - End of Nabis. 6 - etc. etc. I am sure you can think of a few more. I am no scholar. Ok. But when it comes to interpreting equality of women in the Quran, I've noticed several Bahais not engage in the same kind of effort. Instead of saying how the Quran can be read on multiple levels they would rather have an insulting view of God, and believe that God endorsed wife-beating, and so then it becomes an excuse to get rid of Islam and replace it with something else. When if you didn't want to have an insulting view of God, another approach would be to point out that just as seal might mean something other than last in Arabic, that daraba can mean many other things besides beat. It's even used in multiple ways in the Quran itself. the word daraba which some people translate as beat actually appears elsewhere in the Quran itself with other meanings. To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273 To set up: 43:58; 57:13 To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11 To take away, to ignore: 43:5 To condemn: 2:61 To seal, to draw over: 18:11 To cover: 24:31 To explain: 13:17 Not to mention the other meanings it takes elsewhere in Arabic literature. And if you want more clarification on the subject you can look at other places in the Quran and sunnah: Among the Muslims, the most perfect as regards his faith is the one whose character is most excellent, and the best among you are those who treat their wives well. (Narrated by Tirmidhi.) We went to the apostle of Allah (pbuh) and asked him: What do you say [command] about our wives??He replied: Give them the same food you have for yourself, and clothe them with the
Re: Women in West/Islam
In a message dated 1/12/2005 7:44:01 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Christians have a similar relation to the Jewish scriptures. This isbecause the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible. Yes . . . and . . . no. Most Jews will tell you that the Christian Old Testament is based upon a Greek translation of the Hebrew text that is insufficiently accurate. When reading the TaNakh, even in English translation, one can notice a number of differences - the most notorious is the quote from Isaiah about a virgin bringingforth a child. Well, the word in Hebrew is "almah" and means "young woman". THere is an entirely different word in Hebrew for "virgin" but I cannot recall it at the moment. This is probably the most notorious difference between the Septuagint and the Hebrew text. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
In a message dated 1/12/2005 7:44:01 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ok. But when it comes to interpreting equality of women in the Quran,I've noticed several Bahais not engage in the same kind of effort.Instead of saying how the Quran can be read on multiple levels theywould rather have an insulting view of God, and believe that Godendorsed wife-beating, and so then it becomes an excuse to get rid ofIslam and replace it with something else.When if you didn't want to have an insulting view of God, anotherapproach would be to point out that just as "seal" might meansomething other than "last" in Arabic, that "daraba" can mean manyother things besides "beat". It's even used in multiple ways in theQuran itself.the word "daraba" which some people translate as "beat" actually I mentioned the Aur'anic license to beat wives for a purpose, but it was not to demean Islam. The limitation on ill-treatment of wives was a geometric progression forthebenefit of women in the time of Muhammed. There were no such restrictions on husbands before Muhammed. All three of these translations seem to agree on the meaning of 'daraba'. As does Rodwell to the best of my recollection. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
There are numerous texts in the Quran and hadith where husbands are told to treat their wives kindly and mercifully. And they are told specifically not to beat them. Gilberto, Thanks for pointing these out. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Women in West/Islam
HRH, The Prince of Wales, Islam And The West Islamic countries like Turkey, Egypt, and Syria gave women the vote as early as Europe did its women -- and much earlier than in Switzerland! In those countries women have long enjoyed equal pay, and the opportunity to play a full working role in their societies. The rights of Muslim women to property and inheritance, to some protection if divorced, and to the conducting of business, were rights prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, even if they were not everywhere translated into practice. In Britain at least, some of these rights were novel even to my grandmother's generation! Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
In a message dated 1/11/2005 4:01:52 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The rightsof Muslim women to property and inheritance, to some protection ifdivorced, and to the conducting of business, The rights of women in Islam to divorce, property and inheritance is hardly equal. Inheritance is HALF what a male heir receives, for instance. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Women in West/Islam
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:48:16 +0700, Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: HRH, The Prince of Wales, Islam And The West Islamic countries like Turkey, Egypt, and Syria gave women the vote as early as Europe did its women -- and much earlier than in Switzerland! The constitutions of all these countries are very secular and not based on Sharia unlike Saudi Arabia or Iran and a few other Islamic countries. In Turkey girls cannot attend the government universities wearing Islmaic Hijab. Yes, Turkey is *extremely* secular to the point of repressing religious freedoms. A Muslim woman was elected a member of parliamant and was campaigning wearing hijab but after winning the election and showing up in parliament with her hair covered people in the government objected and she was ultimately stripped of her citizenship. I don't think Turkey is a good model for how Muslim countries ought to become more secular. The military, especially, represses religion I think when you talk about Muslim countries you should distinguish between the two groups of Muslim worlds. For example, Iran is a Muslim country but the women rights and many other laws were very different during Shah's time from today under Islamic government. Many Muslims in Iran (men and women alike) yearn for the good old days under Shah. Actually majority of Iranian today would like to have a government similar to Turkey, a secular government with very clear separation of mosque and state. And in Turkey and in other countries, the religious parties tend to do really well in the elections. I think the grass is always greener. Actually it seems like a majority of Iraqis would like a religious-type government. Personally, I think that if you are in a country where the majority of the population are religious Muslims and they have a good democratic-type government which respects the will of the people and is accountable, then Islamic values and principles would naturally be incorporated into the structure of the government and the society. And there is more than one way which that can happen and there is more than one way that can look like. Peace GIlberto -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
