Gilberto:
But in some ways the larger issue is that if Susan hadn't made her
comment and I hadn't read similar things elsewhere and I had heard
your accusation towards Islam for the first time, then it would have
been misleading. I'm ok with the idea that western liberals like the
idea of a
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:07:58 +0700, Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
You seem to be suggesting that Muslim countries shouldn't have democracy.
On the opposite, I would love to see democracy everywhere with and without
Muslim World.
You were speaking positively about
Gilberto:
You were speaking positively about Turkish secularism (in spite of the
fact that the Turkish military respresses Muslims). In alot of parts
in the Muslim world, if the governments became more democratic, then
that would mean more power for the Islamic parties but you've
commented about
Dear Susan,
FirouzIslamic governments and Islamic parties say that they are just accountable to God not to people.Susan Don't we say the same thing about own institutions?
Yes, we do. But the Baha'i institutions exist, and operate
based on the explicit, written statements of Baha'u'llah
or His
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:22:20 -0800 (PST), Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Susan,
FirouzIslamic governments and Islamic parties say that they are just
accountable to God not to people.
Susan Don't we say the same thing about own institutions?
Yes, we do. But the Baha'i
But the Baha'i institutions exist, and operate
based on the explicit, written statements of Baha'u'llah
or His successors. Can Islam make the analogous claim?
Analogous, yes, but obviously not the same. But perhaps in the same since
that Christian claims to finality are analogous to Muslim
G: But in some ways the larger issue is that if Susan hadn't made hercomment and I hadn't read similar things elsewhere and I had heardyour accusation towards Islam for the first time, then it would havebeen misleading. I'm "ok" with the idea that western liberals like theidea of a secular
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:16:54 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 1/12/2005 7:44:01 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Christians have a similar relation to the Jewish scriptures. This is
because the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible.
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:23:41 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 1/12/2005 7:44:01 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Ok. But when it comes to interpreting equality of women in the Quran,
I've noticed several Bahais not engage in the same kind of
Gilberto:
And it is clear that in certain parts of the Muslim
world, the people there clearly want religious parties to have a
greater role in the government because they see the secular
governments as corrupt and not promoting their interests.
That's true to some extent. How about when the
Islamic governments and Islamic parties say that they are just accountable
to God not to people.
Dear Firouz,
Don't we say the same thing about own institutions?
warmest, Susan
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Islamic governments and Islamic parties say that they are just accountable
to God not to people.
Dear Firouz,
Don't we say the same thing about own institutions?
warmest, Susan
Dear Susan,
Yes, The Universal House of Justice is accountable to God on religious
matters but not on political matters.
Yes, The Universal House of Justice is accountable to God on religious
matters but not on political matters.
Dear Firouz,
Where in the Writings is that distinction made?
warmest, Susan
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You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as:
The separation of religion from
politics in Islam is not so clear.
Dear Firouz,
I don't really see any clear distinction between religion and politics in
the Baha'i Teachings either accept that matters of legislation rest with our
elected Assemblies, not the Learned. Abdu'l-Baha insisted that
Dear Firouz,
I don't really see any clear distinction between religion and politics in
the Baha'i Teachings either accept that matters of legislation rest with
our
elected Assemblies, not the Learned. Abdu'l-Baha insisted that the clergy
should be separate from the state, but Baha'u'llah placed
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:09:33 +0700, Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
Personally, I think that if you are in a
country where the majority of the population are religious Muslims and
they have a good democratic-type government which respects the will of
the people and is
G: I don't think any country (Muslim or not) will be ideal.
J: Itdoes appear thatnon-Muslim countries are more ideal that Muslim countries, doesn't it? Why is that? Could it be that Muslim law is not suitable for today'sWorld governance? Could it be that God sent Baha'u'llah with an
Gilberto:
I don't think any country (Muslim or not) will be ideal. But that's
what I would like to see other countries move towards. Secularization
in Muslim countries seems to take place as the result of force and
repression. So I'm wary if you are somehow holding it up as a model.
What is
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:04:16 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G: I don't think any country (Muslim or not) will be ideal.
J: It does appear that non-Muslim countries are more ideal that Muslim
countries, doesn't it? Why is that?
Because during the Age of Discovery and
G:And Christianity is actually dying in Europe and the people there are becoming rejecting religion more and more. So what exactly do you think Western technological and material advances prove? What kind of model do they point to?Are technological and material advances ANY kind of proof of
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:47:56 +0700, Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
I don't think any country (Muslim or not) will be ideal. But that's
what I would like to see other countries move towards. Secularization
in Muslim countries seems to take place as the result of force
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:16:33 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G: And Christianity is actually dying in Europe and the people there are
becoming rejecting religion more and more. So what exactly do you think
Western technological and material advances prove? What kind of model do
G: I guess there might be a question of what kind of knowledge and whatkind of intellect is more important, And what kind of knowledge isrelated to spirituality.
J:I would say thatreligion is necessary for the advancement of material civilization, spiritual civilization, as well as the progress
Gilberto: The rights of Muslim women to property and
inheritance, to some protection if
divorced, and to the conducting of business, were rights
prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, even if they
were not everywhere translated into practice.
Dear Gilberto,
And, interestingly,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:57:45 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto: The rights of Muslim women to property and
inheritance, to some protection if
divorced, and to the conducting of business, were rights
prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, even if they
In a message dated 1/12/2005 1:53:46 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
rights prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago, even if they were not everywhere translated into practice."
Wives have the right to be summarily divorced by their husbands. Wives have the right to
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:32:21 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G: I guess there might be a question of what kind of knowledge and what
kind of intellect is more important, And what kind of knowledge is
related to spirituality.
J: I would say that religion is necessary for the
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:15:49 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 1/12/2005 1:53:46 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
rights prescribed by the Quran twelve hundred years ago,
even if they were not everywhere translated into practice.
Wives
G:
If Bahais can make "seal" mean something other than last, then you should be able to find ways of understanding the Quran in ways which are consistent with fair, just compassionate treatment of women.
J:
Gilberto, this is an interesting statement. I have a couple of comments:
1) Do you think
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:16:12 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G:
If Bahais can make seal mean something other than last, then you should be
able to find ways of understanding the Quran in ways which are consistent
with fair, just compassionate treatment of women.
J:
Gilberto,
In a message dated 1/12/2005 7:44:01 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Christians have a similar relation to the Jewish scriptures. This isbecause the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible.
Yes . . . and . . . no. Most Jews will tell you that the Christian Old Testament
In a message dated 1/12/2005 7:44:01 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Ok. But when it comes to interpreting equality of women in the Quran,I've noticed several Bahais not engage in the same kind of effort.Instead of saying how the Quran can be read on multiple levels
There are numerous texts in the Quran and hadith where husbands are
told to treat their wives kindly and mercifully. And they are told
specifically not to beat them.
Gilberto,
Thanks for pointing these out.
Patti
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You are subscribed to
HRH, The Prince of Wales, Islam And The West
Islamic countries like Turkey, Egypt, and Syria gave women the vote as
early as Europe did its women -- and much earlier than in Switzerland!
In those countries women have long enjoyed equal pay, and the
opportunity to play a full working role in their
In a message dated 1/11/2005 4:01:52 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The rightsof Muslim women to property and inheritance, to some protection ifdivorced, and to the conducting of business,
The rights of women in Islam to divorce, property and inheritance is hardly equal.
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:48:16 +0700, Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
HRH, The Prince of Wales, Islam And The West
Islamic countries like Turkey, Egypt, and Syria gave women the vote as
early as Europe did its women -- and much earlier than in Switzerland!
The
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