It was also accepted (as it probably is in much of the world) that the church was involved in politics. As was the military and the university. Just like families aspired to have one son (I assume the gay one) enter the priesthood, one the military, and one go to the university and become a doctor or lawyer.
But the church, military, and universities each represented a certain constituency and were expected to be involved in politics. As you might guess the military represented the right and the universities the left and the church represented, I don’t know, God? Oh, and there were lots of strong men and demagogues populists. But the current Pope came from there and seems a nice fellow. From: Josh Reynolds Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 3:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Paul Ryan Hah On Mar 14, 2016 3:00 PM, "Jaime Solorza" <[email protected]> wrote: So I would call you Juan 2 3 Or Number Juan On Mar 14, 2016 1:40 PM, "Ken Hohhof" <[email protected]> wrote: But there should be a big gap between “what I believe” and “what the government should enforce on everyone else”. There are many things other people do that I don’t like, but would not want the government to restrict. I remember how strange it seemed when as a kid my family moved to a Latin American (and officially Catholic) country that my middle name had to be changed to Juan because it was the law that all children had to have one name from the Bible. Very minor example, but as an American, it seemed so strange that there was an official state religion enforced by law. Thank goodness they didn’t believe in stoning heretics to death, or enslaving women for sex. I am also confused at how some people strongly hold beliefs that seem incompatible. Like all life is sacred, but pro death penalty, pro war. Or limited government, libertarian, keep the government out of my life, but the government should definitely crack down on my neighbor who is doing something I disapprove of but doesn’t really impinge on my rights. How can black-or-white no-shades-of-grey people apparently pick and choose between black and white as it suits them, and not see any logical contradiction? This is how we get fiascos like the Terry Schiavo thing. It is unfortunate that her parents, and her husband who was the legal guardian, could not agree. But it became a very unseemly feeding frenzy for politicians. Even if I had very strong personally held beliefs about the matter, I don’t see how my beliefs should have been imposed on them, especially by the government. It’s bad enough when you have to make decisions like that for yourself or loved ones. If we’re going to start making those decisions for others and using the government to enforce them, it had better be very, very clearcut that it’s something that we want the government involved in. If it’s not so clear, then keep the government the hell out of our lives. Even if our neighbors might be doing stuff that we disapprove of. From: Bruce Robertson Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 2:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Paul Ryan I would give a woman a mulligan for the first few weeks. To clarify my previous post, me too. I am NOT in the camp that thinks abortion is okay at any time during the term of the pregnancy. On 03/14/2016 11:59 AM, [email protected] wrote: I am not in that category. I doubt most Catholics are either if you get them to level with you. Contraception is 100% OK with me. I don't think a Catholic business should be forced to provide them to their employees. But again, when rules/dogma come from the wizened masters that claim to hear God, we forget that sometimes he mumbles and sometimes the wizened masters make up what they don't actually hear. Centuries of the agendas and power plays of man have flavored religions. And if you truly want to get to minutia, I believe that life begins at the time of quickening. When the spirit enters the body. Sometime after conception. Some time before birth. I would give a woman a mulligan for the first few weeks. -----Original Message----- From: Ken Hohhof Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 12:52 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Paul Ryan I don't believe many people are actually pro-abortion. And I don't think Josh characterized it is a "handy solution". What I fail to understand is people who don't want others to have access to birth control, like condoms or birth control pills or even "morning after" pills. You may believe life begins at conception and apply that in your own life. But if you don't want others to have abortions, the most effective way to that goal is to accept that others might use contraception or family planning methods that are not 100% per your religious beliefs. I put the abstinence-only people in this same category. That is not a realistic approach, if your goal is really to reduce the number of abortions. It sounds a lot more like if you're going to have sex, you deserve to get pregnant, you slut -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 1:34 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Paul Ryan I used to believe like you. During my teen years, having lots of fun with the opposite sex, I figured abortion was a handy solution to a problem if it cropped up. Then I got married. My wife got pregnant. We went to the first ultrasound. I saw my daughter as the miniature human she was. Stretching her arms and sucking her tumb. All as 16 week. Then I saw the light... -----Original Message----- From: Josh Reynolds Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 12:24 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Paul Ryan Sorry CORRECTION, **birth** not conception. I'm feeling groggy from the time shift, and have not had enough coffee. On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 1:22 PM, Josh Reynolds mailto:[email protected] wrote: Upon natural or medically induced conception. Until then it is an organism that receives sustenance from the mother's body, thus is part of the mother - and her decision. You don't have to agree with me, and that's fine, but you shouldn't force legislation preventing people from making decisions about their bodies and their children. That's for them to decide, and they have to live with the choices they make. On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Cameron Crum mailto:[email protected] wrote: So at what age should state sanctioned murder be stopped, or is all just up to the individual and their "belief"? On Mar 14, 2016 1:13 PM, "Bruce Robertson" mailto:[email protected] wrote: No, I want to go back to persecution. It is persecution because you would be trying to carry out the wishes of the boss as you understand them. Not necessarily as I see those wishes. Therefore by supporting legislation that affects the population as a whole, you are imposing your beliefs upon me, against my will. I may have the equally valid belief that the boss upstairs wants us all to accept guidance, but ultimately make decisions for ourselves (and of course take responsibility for those decisions). Someone with such beliefs would only support legislation that would make decisions such as birth control, abortion, etc. completely up to each individual, her conscience, and her relationship with the boss. ~sigh~ I swore I would never get involved in a political or religious discussion. My apologies. On 03/13/2016 09:53 PM, Chuck McCown wrote: Nevermind the persecution thing, I didn’t fully read your post properly. From: Chuck McCown Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 10:50 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Paul Ryan If I have a strong feeling that the guy in the sky that created all of us hates the murder of babies, yes I will try to stop that via legislation. How is that persecution? Just trying to carry out the wishes of the boss. He has promised me a pretty nice apartment if I give it a good try. Persecution? From: Josh Reynolds Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 10:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Paul Ryan So you wish to force your religious beliefs on others via legislation, in a country created to escape persecution from religion? On Mar 13, 2016 11:38 PM, "Chuck McCown" mailto:[email protected] wrote: Here is why a churches need to be involved with reproductive care, contraception, or abortion. If you believe there is a God, Creator, Savior etc. >Then if you believe that entity cares about these things (listed >above). >>Then if you believe that the mind of that entity has communicated its >> wishes with man. >>>Then if you believe that those wishes are contained in doctrine of >>> churches or bodies of scripture. >>>>Then the church and its doctrine trumps all laws of man. The church needs to be involved in all facets of life. If you believe the above. You can claim to be agnostic or atheistic but a smart person should hedge their bets against actually not knowing that they are totally right about that. Could be that every time you eat spaghetti you are committing a mortal sin. Could be. For me and mine, I will take my particular flavor of Christianity and do my thing, while you do your thing. But if I have an opportunity to legislate away things I consider mortal sins, I will try. From: Josh Reynolds Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 6:54 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Paul Ryan Why does any church need to be involved with reproductive care, contraception, or abortion? Those are medical issues. On Mar 13, 2016 6:48 PM, "CBB - Jay Fuller" mailto:[email protected] wrote: Actually, my belief is here in the deep south we have a church on every corner. Let the churches handle it....they are more than capable. My tax dollars aren't needed for this. (or many other things) ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Hohhof To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Paul Ryan What many people who lose sleep over Planned Parenthood are actually upset about is they offer birth control. Some people obsess about poor people having sex without the punishment of getting pregnant. See this if you forgot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_Limbaugh%E2%80%93Sandra_Fluke_controversy I don’t understand how you can be extremely anti-abortion yet also extremely anti-contraception. Less unwanted pregnancies = less abortions. Which is the lesser evil? I think it comes down to some people are obsessed with sex, especially “other” people having sex. #nosyneighbors #getalife From: Josh Reynolds Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 5:48 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Paul Ryan Did you research that video? You should. It's not what you think. On Mar 13, 2016 5:41 PM, "CBB - Jay Fuller" mailto:[email protected] wrote: Yah, i'm kind of like Chuck here. I don't care about gay marriage. I'm not gay, I know a handful of gay people. Not my cup of tea but the government doesn't have any right telling them what they can or can't do. Same with adoption for a gay couple - shut up gov'mt. Now, I'm not so sure on that. When I was growing up there were few gay couples who had "come out" and we thought if the girl had a different last name than her mommy we thought that was odd. Quite a bit different now but it could still screw with a kids head in terms of "traditional marriage". It would be hard to NOT state that traditional marriage has gone to hell in this country. But then again, so many "traditional" things have gone to hell. How many women stay at home and take care of the family while dad goes to work? I am in favor of defunding planned parenthood. The videos pretty much got to me. It's MY TAX DOLLARS. Defund it. There are plenty of other non-government-funded entities who can do that work. Any tax is bad :) I'm going to stop there, i will get in trouble... lol ----- Original Message ----- From: Josh Reynolds To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 5:02 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Paul Ryan His stances: Gay marriage is wrong He doesn't support adoption for a gay couple Defund planned parenthood Raising corporate tax is bad Voted yes for more sentencing and prosecution for juveniles. Wants to drill in ANWR Voted no on tax credits for renewable energy. Voted no on 4 weeks paid parental leave for federal employees. Votes for PATRIOT act over and over Voted to allow warantless electronic surveillance against us citizens Denied additional funding that would provide expanded child healthcare "Let's build a fence!" Voted NO on reporting / deporting illegal immigrants who received hospital treatment Etc. A few things I like him on, but mostly he's a "nope" for me. On Mar 13, 2016 4:46 PM, "Ken Hohhof" mailto:[email protected] wrote: Hey, I said I liked him. Just not full on man crush. I didn’t see how his math added up for the budgets he proposed. There were some missing pages where magic happened to balance the budget. Seemed like the same old voodoo economics. So “man crush”, is that like Trump and Putin? At least Putin is supposedly an 8th degree black belt. He would probably take care of the protester himself. If Trump thinks he can bully the Putins of the world, I’m not so sure. I think McCain could take him in a fair fight. Hell, Bernie could probably take him. I was never fond of Nixon, but the photo of the “kitchen debate” with Khrushchev is a treasure. http://spectator.org/articles/41740/how-handle-bully-nixon-vs-khrushchev From: CBB - Jay Fuller Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 4:19 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [AFMUG] Paul Ryan I have actually followed Paul Ryan since the first time he appeared on the national stage. Very impressed with him. Could almost call him my "man crush". I'd be interested in hearing what you do not like about him Ken. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Hohhof To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Donald Trump's Supporters Love Him Even More AfterChicago Violence I think the "establishment" is missing why people are fed up with them, I'm not convinced it's about left or right. If I had to single out one person as the poster boy for why the establishment has failed us, it would be Mitch McConnell. All 4 leaders in Congress have only been worried about their own power and re-election, but McConnell is the worst of a bad bunch. I don't agree with Paul Ryan's economics or some of his politics, but I like what he has said since being elected Speaker. I would like to see if they are just words, or if he would translate them into actions. I don't think we will get to find out, election politics seem to have rendered him irrelevant. And Mitch the Turtle would have to be replaced with someone actually interested in governing. I wonder what conservative goals could have been accomplished in the 7 years Mitch has spent trying to make Obama fail no matter how much damage it causes. Tort reform? Modifications to Obamacare? Fix sequestration? Tax reform? Immigration reform? Mitch doesn't care. Mitch cares about Mitch. That's the problem with the establishment, they spend all their effort on getting elected and staying in power, they don't even pretend to do their job. And let me be clear, I'm not saying Pelosi, Reid and Boehner were much better, it's just McConnell is the most blatant hack of the bunch, every time I see him on TV I feel he is giving me the finger. I am probably fooling myself that Paul Ryan would be different, but I don't think we'll find out. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Prince Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 1:40 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Donald Trump's Supporters Love Him Even More After Chicago Violence IMO, Obama moved right, and the Republicans moved further to the right. bp <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> On 3/13/2016 6:01 AM, Lewis Bergman wrote: > Obama moved right as much as the Republicans moved left. > Everybody's > idea > of compromise these days is you come to where I am and I'll make a > deal. !DSPAM:2,56e70a1e256421332619011!
