Dear Susan Maneck and Gilberto Simpson
I swear by God
Because of many pressures and problems this servant did not wish to
interfere in your conversation but there are so many postings by you that I
thought I should just add one or two references in the spirit of love and
understanding.
1] each of the religious Dispensations in the recent past if read
selectively can be said to have both a limited and a universal sphere of
applicability.
For example in the Dispensation of Christ we have the Universal
applicability of His divine redemptive mission in John 3:16
Joh 3:16
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; BUT THAT THE
WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED.
But in terms of restrictive limited applicability of His mission we have in
the story of the Canaanite woman
Mt 15:22
And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto
him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is
grievously vexed with a devil.
Mt 15:23
But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him,
saying; Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mt 15:24
But he answered and said, I AM NOT SENT BUT UNTO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE
OF ISRAEL.
Mt 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mt 15:26
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and
TO CAST IT TO DOGS.
Mt 15:27
And she said, Truth, Lord: YET THE DOGS EAT OF THE CRUMBS WHICH FALL FROM
THEIR MASTERS' TABLE.
2 Similarly in the Holy Qur’an we read that the Mission of the Prophet
Muhammad was limited according to this verse
006.092
YUSUFALI: And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings,
and confirming (the revelations) which came before it: that thou mayest warn
the mother of cities [UMMAL-QURAA =Mecca] and all around her..
PICKTHAL: And this is a blessed Scripture which We have revealed, confirming
that which (was revealed) before it, that thou mayest warn the Mother of
Villages and those around her.
SHAKIR: And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, verifying that which
is before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her;
And yet other verses enlarge this compass
025.001
YUSUFALI: Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it
may be AN ADMONITION TO ALL CREATURES;-
PICKTHAL: Blessed is He Who hath revealed unto His slave the Criterion (of
right and wrong), THAT HE MAY BE A WARNER TO THE PEOPLES.
SHAKIR: Blessed is He Who sent down the Furqan upon His servant that he may
be A WARNER TO THE NATIONS;
So spiritually the divine Message is Universal but what about the range of
applicability of its laws?...
Again we read in the Sacred Iqan
Heed not the idle contention of those who maintain that the Book and verses
thereof can never be a testimony unto the common people, inasmuch as they
neither grasp their meaning nor appreciate their value. And yet, the
unfailing testimony of God to both the East and the West is none other than
the Qur'án.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 210)
And if thou deniest this, thou hast surely repudiated the truth of the
Qur'án, the surest testimony of God unto men.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 151)
That Book [the Qur’an] constitutes an abiding testimony to its people after
Muhammad, inasmuch as its decrees are indisputable, and its promise
unfailing. All have been enjoined to follow the precepts of that Book until
"the year sixty"[1260 AH] -- the year of the advent of God's wondrous
Manifestation. That Book is the Book which unfailingly leadeth the seeker
unto the Ridvan of the divine Presence, and causeth him that hath forsaken
his country and is treading the seeker's path to enter the Tabernacle of
everlasting reunion.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 200)
"Shoghi Effendi hopes that your lectures will not only serve to deepen the
knowledge of the believers in the doctrines and culture and culture of
Islam, but will set their hearts afire with the love of everything that
vitally pertains to Muhammad and His Faith.
"There is so much misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that
you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal
of erudition. Your chief task is to acquaint the friends with the pure
teaching of the Prophet as recorded in the Qur'án, and then to point out how
these teachings have, throughout succeeding ages, influenced nay guided the
course of human development. In other words you have to show the position
and significance of Islam in the history of civilization.
"The Bahá'í view on that subject is that the Dispensation of Muhammad, like
all other Divine Dispensations, has been fore-ordained, and that as such
forms and integral part of the Divine Plan for the spiritual, moral and
social, development of mankind, It is not an isolated religious phenomenon,
but is closely and historically related to the Dispensation of Christ, and
those of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. It was intended by God to succeed
Christianity, and it was therefore the duty of the Christians to accept it
as firmly as they had adhered to the religion of Christ.
"You should also cautiously emphasize the truth that due to the historical
order of its appearance, and also because of the obviously more advanced
character of its teachings, Islam constitutes a fuller revelation of God's
purpose for mankind. The so-called Christian civilization of which the
Renaissance is one of the most striking manifestations is essentially Muslim
in its origins and foundations. When medieval Europe was plunged in darkest
barbarism, the Arabs regenerated and transformed by the spirit released by
the religion of Muhammad were busily engaged in establishing a civilization
the kind of which their contemporary Christians in Europe had never
witnessed before. It was eventually through Arabs that civilization was
introduced to the West. It was through them that the philosophy, science and
culture which the old Greeks had developed found their way to Europe. The
Arabs were the ablest translators, and linguists of their age, and it is
thanks to them that the writings of such well-known thinkers as Socrates,
Plato and Aristotle were made available to the Westerners. It is wholly
unfair to attribute the efflorescence of European culture during the
Renaissance period to the influence of Christianity. It was mainly the
product of the forces released by the Muhammadan Dispensation.
"From the standpoint of institutionalism Islam far surpasses true
Christianity as we know it in the Gospels. There are infinitely more laws
and institutions in the Qur'án than in the Gospel. While the latter's
emphasis is mainly, not to say wholly, on individual and personal conduct,
the Qur'án stresses the importance of society. This social emphasis acquires
added importance and significance in the Bahá'í Revelation. When carefully
and impartially compared, the Qur'án marks a definite advancement on the
Gospel, from the standpoint of spiritual and humanitarian progress. 496
"The truth is that Western historians have for many centuries distorted the
facts to suit their religious and ancestral prejudices. The Bahá'ís should
try to study history anew, and to base all their investigations first and
foremost on the written Scriptures of Islam and Christianity."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual
believer, April 27, 1936)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 494)
Anyway I hope you guys end friends in this discussion
Lowly nothingness khazeh back to my own humble work
In a message dated 12/11/2004 10:45:16 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Where are you getting that from?
For gosh sakes, Gilberto. Have you never seen the fatwas to the effect that
women should not be in positions of political authority because political
leaders engage in war, and women aren't supposed to do this? Can a woman be
the Caliph? There was a female Ayatullah at the time of the Iranian
revolution. But she could do ijtihad only on her own behalf, no own could
follow her.
"Women can certainly be judges in the Hanafi madhab which is the
largest and the oldest of the four traditional sunni schools."
Qazis and muftis are different things. Name some female muftis for me and
cite the fetwas they issued which others followed.
"And historically Aishah led troops"
Yes, against the Iman and Caliph Ali! Not the most Islamic act she ever did.
Yes, I believe the Qur'an is the Word of God and yes I believe God is
merciful and just. But no, it does not follow that one can apply everything
the Qur'an says about women in this day and be treating them either justly
or mercifully. A doctor may well prescribe a medicine for one patient at one
time which will be poison to him at another.
warmest, Susan
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 07:20:09 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Gilberto:
> > > "And at some point, you weren't just saying the Quran is silent
> > > about the equality but that it is positively inconsistent with it."
> > Susan:
> > > I think the details of the Qur'an are inconsistent with the social
> > equality
> > > of women as we presently understand it.
> > Gilberto:
> > When you say that it makes me think that on some level you don't
> > really believe that the Qur'án is from God
> [D.A.L.] I struggle with the Qur'án also.
Gilberto:
I respect that and think its an honest answer. I think that what happens in
the case of many people coming to Islam from Western backgrounds is that
there is this struggle and wrestling with the Qur'án but eventually the
Qur'án wins. : )
> I think that part of the problem
> is that from what I understand, it is nearly impossible to faithfully
> render Arabic directly into English. (This also says something about
> biblical inerrantists).
I was thinking of mentioning this earlier now is probably more appropriate.
I don't think of myself as very post-modern, but Mark's earlier point about
reading and meaning might be appropriate here. I mean, there is a question
of whether ANY text, especially religious ones can be "rendered faithfully".
If he is right, then one approach might be that the Quran isn't telling
anybody to do anything (so in particular it isn't telling anyone to be
sexist). But when you read the Quran, you meditate on the words, and you
contemplate the consequences of your own actions and act accordingly.
> On the other hand, knowing that the Qu'ran was revealed to a time and
> culture radically different from our own seems to resolve the difficulty.
> The principle of progressive revelation doesn't invalidate the Qu'ran,
> but it does mean that we are expected to move forward. Every former
> revelation was directed toward a particular time and culture, each
> with its unique set of parameters. This is the first time the world
> has been presented with a truly universal revelation.
I see things very differently. Islam, Christianity, and in some ways even
Judaism claim to have a revelation which is "truly universal". In Islam
there are explicit texts saying that the Muhammad was sent to all mankind
and that the Quran was as well.
If you look at all the societies Islam had spread to from the time of
Muhammad by 1843, in Africa, Spain, Eastern and Southeast Asia, Eastern
Europe, Spain as well as the Middle East I'm not sure how convincing it is
to say that Islam was just meant for a very narrow range of cultures.
There is actually a really interesting comment attributed to the Bahai
figures, unfortunately it is just a Pilgrim's Note:
" It is blasphemy to believe that Islam was not meant to be a universal
religion."
And I thought there was a passage actually in the writings saying that
previous religions (at least Islam) was intended to be universal but the
blamed the behaviour of the followers
Peace
Gilberto
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