> LM7.2. But, I think my point is still valid for a lot of people's
> upgrades.
No doubt about it Victor, I maintain a box for playing. My comments
were related to the difficulties of getting version 7+ of ANY
operating system to do basic things without having to relearn the
entire operating system, read volumes on a dozen websites and hope and
pray that you can fix things with a bunch of patches. The Linux world
has bad-mouthed Microsoft for releasing buggy programs and that's
certainly justified. BUT, Microsoft has always come along quickly
with updates and something like W'98 was followed quickly with minor
revision releases. Where's the "minor revision release" from ANY of
the LINUX distro people? It's not even in their vocabulary. There
are all sorts of things that could be stabilized in 7.2 and updated
isos made available. I dare say that the folks at Mandrake are
running exactly such systems on a daily basis. And yet there's no
effort to actually do those updates other than through the update
facility which seems to have problems of its own :-)
I will give them this, the 7.2 updater is a bazillion miles ahead of
the one that came with 7.1. But since I can't even do an expert
install that runs to completion it doesn't do me a lot of good.
> I think stability and featurefulness needs a different approach.
Yep...and that, I guess, is my basic point. That approach is
non-existent in the current Linux community once you get just a couple
bytes above the kernel.
> The legendary linux stability meant stability of the kernel. The stable
> kernel. Not all the programs, desktops, and new programs from
If that's true then "world domination" is meaningless. Taking even a
small bite out of the Windows world is unreasonable. I would grant
that the folks working close to the kernel are properly managing
development, stability, etc. But when I hand a system to a guy and he
then starts asking me why version 0.1 of this or that utility doesn't
work, it suggests to me that there's a problem of another sort with
this development model. Imagine how popular Windows would be if
Microsoft bundled up half a dozen CDs of any and all of the small
Visual Basic hacks that have been done and called it part of their
package? This is what the Linux community is trying to do right now,
mostly without a need to do so other than to feed "1300 programs" and
"New" and other lines on a shrinkwrap box.
> cooker. And probably not CUPS, either. Debian is considered one of
An operating sytem without a stable print facility is not a desktop
operating system in this day and age. It's that simple.
> the most stable and featureful linux distros. They stick to
> software, installation methods, desktops which are usually found in
> Mandrake distros like 6.2 -7.0. And yes, if you want cool stuff to
Yep, and if I didn't feel that sometimes "best" doesn't win the race
in the computer game I might give it a try. But it seems to me that
the die is cast that the side of the street that Mandrake and Red Hat
are on will be where the majority will live. Then again, I've been
wrong before :-)
> be working on your linux, you may have to tweak a little bit to make it
> stable or usable. Sorry...
Understand Viktor that I realize completely that if I want a very
stable system I can get it. I'll just reload Red Hat 6.2. My
statements are more couched in the vein that one of two things need to
happen. Either the distro people need to spend more time stabilizing
things or the Linux community should stop even giving a hint that
Linux is an operating system that anyone but a seasoned computer jock
is going to be able to use. Right now the rhetoric of this community
doesn't fit its footsteps. Either could be out of whack, I'm not in a
position to answer that.
The thing I find odd is that I don't think anyone in the Linux
community ever figured that it might be the distribution companies
that would be the major stumbling block in putting a stable Linux on a
secretarie's desktop...but it is. Let me provide an example here.
Anyone who's read this conference knows of the problems associated
with v7.2. We also know of the great Mandrake Cooker and realize
there are guys working very hard...on something. But if I download a
Cooker install do I get improved stability? No...what I get are more
features. Can I go to the Mandrake site and get a fix for my
installer problems with 7.2? No. So, willing or not to spend time, I
struggle to have 7.2 running 100% on my system and I can't even
imagine what all those people who received Mandrake Complete 7.2 for
Xmas are going to do.
> Just an example: For a really stable KDE desktop, you probably have
> to stick to KDE 1.2...Until all the fixes for KDE 2.0 come out.
Here again, I have improved stability considerably by installing
KDE2.1. Is the secretary I mentioned above going to do that? Are the
bunch of guys I've got running Mandrake around here going to do that
when they're still calling me to ask how they can create and icon? If
we were talking about Windows, KDE2.1 would be available as an
automatically update with a simple log on to their site. What have we
got? We've got Chris doing it out of the goodness of his heart, not
Mandrake having any protocol to provide it. This is a major
stabilization of a product that Mandrake is selling, RIGHT NOW as
though it's a functional replacement for Windows.
> Well, I have to admit, I switched to linux some 4 years ago not
> because of stability, but couriosity and because I allways change
> stuff on my computer, try out things. I got bored with Windows, it
> was closed I knew it, it was not interesting any more. It did not
And I'm a diehard Unix liker. But I'm also a guy who has to do work
with his computers and a guy who doesn't feel his entire life should
revolve around upgrading this or that. But what you and I are doesn't
matter in the scheme of things. It's what the people arethat the
Linux community is purporting to be trying to win over and they're
neither willing or able to deal with this stuff. It's the distro
people who are supposed to be putting together stable, functionally
sound releases. Without that at the end of the pipe none of the rest
of the efforts are going to matter in the world of Windows users.
> But of course, I also need a working version of some kind of OS.
> That is why I suggested to have two copies of the same distro. By
> the way, a lot of the problems in LM7.2 are probably hardware and
> setup dependent. My *stable* distro is a LM7.2, with KDE 2.0 and it
> works for me...CUPS too. Actually without CUPS I would not be able
> to print at all, because my printer is not supported.
You've said something VERY important here. Remember the days of DOS
and hardware compatibility questions? Remember when we tested video
compatibility with "IBM" by running Flight Simulator? Was that a good
thing? In some ways yes as those were the only days that I learned
anything about writing drivers :-) But from a practical standpoint
it's not a good thing for getting things accomplished. As for CUPS
and "support", I looked forward to CUPS because it claimed support for
my printer which was "not supported." What I found was a driver that
gave me most of the potential of my printer with lpd but I was still
thrilled with the notion of getting a CUPS system that included the
proper driver. Guess what? It doesn't work. I get garbage using
that driver and have to tell CUPS that I'm using the same printer I
told lpd I was using and I get hit and miss results. Again, I'm not
knocking the development, only its inclusion in release versions
before it's more stable, especially when it's replacing something that
was and could have more easily had drivers added to its package than
replacing the whole thing.
> Finally, as much as I love linux, I have to say, linux is still not for
> the Walmart people. Never was. And when it will be suitable for
> those people, its name will be Windows, and comes pre-installed...:-))
Well, I have to admit to have my tongue firmly placed in my cheek when
I refer to Walmart. I found (still find) that Mandrake's marketing
need to release a half-baked v7.2 "because they needed to get it into
Walmart before Xmas" to be one of the funniest things I've ever
heard. You are right but then again, buying W'98 at Walmart is just
as silly :-)
> That is just my view right now, and if I will be wrong about it, I
> will be the happiest to see the Linux World Domination. Amen.
It would be good for all of us who like using Unix. I wouldn't waste
my breath talking about this if I didn't see value in the goal. I
just don't think the Linux world will move in that direction as long
as what people outside the Linux community sees are packages driven by
marketing more than by functionality.
Cheers --- Larry
