Having gone over by one post, I will go over by two. So shoot me or ban me for a week.
Michael, I wasn't *speaking* to you in either of my posts this morning. I didn't even have you in mind. So *you* are speaking to someone else, someone in your imagination (or God's imagination, if you prefer) and don't really need an answer from me. I just rapped about what I tend to believe. Do with it what you will. If you choose to get all bent out of shape and insulted by it, I trust that it will make you feel better to believe that God is really the one being offended, not you. :-) I believe what I believe, and you are free to do the same. I have never suggested otherwise. At the same time, I am free to speculate as to *why* others may believe as they believe, and what the repercussions of that belief may be. *Just* as you do rather often here, and in fact do in this very post. You have a *history* of overreacting anytime someone challenges the value of belief in God or the value of practicing bhakti. I'd look into *that* if I were you, not other people's behavior. You claim in this post that you'll say it once and then never say it again. Yeah, right. You've done that before, too. You claim that you don't want to argue, and then do just that. You claim that you don't want to defend your position, and then do just that. Physician, heal thyself. If you can't handle people presenting views that are contrary to yours without getting all upset, *especially* when they're not talking about *you*, I'd advise you to stay out of those discussions. God *may* be dictating all your actions, but if so He's becoming an enormous bore. Otherwise it's you. Your call. Barry --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Barry. I haven't answered your other letter, I apologize. So I will > comment on this one, if I may. > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <no_reply@> wrote: > > <snip> > > > Me, I don't have a clue where my thoughts come > > from, > > Right. > > > and I don't really care. > > Wrong. Your whole post how much you care. > > > They certainly > > don't come from God. > > This is certainly contradictory to your above statement. If you don't > know were thoughts come from, and if you can not say for certain, if > there is a 'God' or waht exactly He /She /It exactly is, you cannot > make this statement. > > > If there is one, He/She/It > > has far better things to do than create the stuff > > that goes through my brain. > > Maybe yes, maybe not. Maybe its exactly this type of experiment which > is really of utmost importance in the universe. Maybe He / She / It is > just like a computer game designer, and you are one of the characters > in the computer game, and you are his test object to receive > artificial intelligence or / and a sense of a separate consciousness/ > identity. ;-) > > <snip> > > > I guess the bottom line for me is that, as new > > suggests below, claiming that God "does every- > > thing" and/or "thinks all my thoughts" sounds > > a tad...uh...self important to me. > > Why? Actually its not 'self'-important, but rather the opposite of it. > You are contradicting yourself in many ways. In one way you say that > you feel more 'free' when you have full authorship of 'your' action, > that you like to have fullest control etc. OTOH you complain that your > self gets too important if you don't have. > > > It's like, > > "God has nothing better to do than to plan all > > the minutiae of my life and every detail of it." > > Yeah, right. *That* is certainly likely. :-) > > It just doesn't mean that. Obviously assuming God to be all-powerful, > omnipresent etc, wouldn't have to make decission of the kind 'this is > more important, so I'll focus on this' There is no more important or > less important, everything is of the same value - ultimately. And if > you can do everything at the same time, if you are omnipresent, like > you are present in every elementary particle, you could just do > everything. Besides that I don't even believe God 'plans'. Planing is > something humans do. God lives in the present, in the here and now ;-) > > > Besides, who would really want to *live* in a > > world that you have no choice in, and no possible > > effect on? > > Actually you do without knowing. Thats the trick: You don't know, and > you are not even asked. > > > That, after all, is the bottom line > > of believing in either predestination or God- > > running-everything. BORING. *This* is what some > > people believe to give their lives "meaning?" > > If a computer game is boring to you or not depends on the intelligent > design, and on your sense of identification with the main characters. > Once your identification with the main character is lost, the game is > basically over. > > > I can't possibly imagine anything *less* mean- > > ingful than believing that you're some kind of > > robot or puppet just acting out "God's will." > > That we are seeking 'meaning' is something you are making up. E.g. I > am not trying to have meaning in life, rather I try to live the Truth > of my Soul. I am quite sure you don't understand, and I am not trying > to convince you. But rather than speculating about the motivations of > people, and psycho-analysing them, you could simply listen to them, > and refere to what they acually say or explained, especially if they > have done so countless times in the past, IF you would be interested > remotely in a meaningful dialoque. Otherwise you just try to 'defend' > your own position - which you dob't need to do - or denigrate and > belittle others by misrepresenting what they actually said. > > > > But people are different, and some might just > > find this belief the most inspiring thing in > > the world. Go figure. > > Yes, go figure. This kind of flaming will certainly not produce > understanding of any sort. What do you actually want? Defend yourself? > Get into an argument whose version of 'truth' -eh no, you would deny > this - 'View', is more accurate etc. You somehow have to feel superior > to those who have faith, and even though you claim that you 'don not > know', you feel free to give loaded advice to everybody, aka 'keep on > thinking for yourself, because you still can' > > <snip> > > > It should be pointed out that most of the horror > > conquerors and megalomaniacs the planet has pro- > > duced claimed that "God thinks my thoughts." They > > were "in tune" with "God's will." They knew what > > God had in mind with His/Her/Its Grand Plan, not > > only for them personally, but for everyone else. > > Is this a compulsion you feel to talk like this, you can somehow not > control? Why do you flame? Why do you do this? Really Barry, I don't > understand your psychology here. You are an intelligent guy, so why do > you come up with crap like this, knowing exactly that this is no what > anyone here said. This is not the first time this topic of free-will > and determination comes up. We, that is a number of people e.g on > alt.T.M., including myself and Judy and many others have taken pains > to explain this to you, and what we mean by it. > > I know you are intelligent, so my conclusion is, you don't want to > understand. You purposefully misrepresent what this implies, this is > the only conclusion I can draw. I don't think its ethical from your > side to do this. So, what do you expect from me? > > > Yeah, right. We all see how well *that* worked out. > > And we will see how such misrepresentations will work for you. Not > that such scenarios as you paint above don't exist. By why bring it up > in the context of a conversation where it doesn't fit, but rather mix > phrases, like 'God thinks my thoughts' (I have never aid this btw) I > don't have to explain this to you. Spare this effort to me. > > > > Personally I think we're all a great deal safer > > with people who believe "different strokes for > > different folks and not one of us has a lock on > > 'Truth'" than we are with people who believe that > > they or others "know 'the Truth' and we should > > believe them and do what they say." The latter > > have fucked up this planet for centuries, and > > have justified war after war after war after > > atrocity after genocide by doing what God told > > them to do as He/She/It was "thinking their > > thoughts for them," and by convincing others > > to do the same. > > I think the people who fucked up this planet are people who feel some > kind of compulsive disorder. Again I ask you: Why do you bring this > heat in the discussion? What does it give to you? > > > > Give me someone who thinks his *own* thoughts any > > day, and who realizes it. That person is "handleable" > > and can be kept under a modicum of control by other > > people who think their own thoughts. They're not all > > that likely to get totally out of control, in a mega- > > death sense. > > Sure, its good to be able to be 'controlled'. Lets have people who > think they think their own thoughts and are therefore 'handleable'. > Because only if you think what you think is your own thought, can your > thoughts be really controlled. > > > But the ones who claim that God thinks their thoughts, > > or that God is telling them what to do, or that they > > "know" what God wants done? Scary as hell. Those are > > the people this planet needs to be wary of, and to > > never allow within a mile of having any kind of power > > over others. > > Maybe I say it only one time, so that you cannot pretend you really > didn't know how you misrepresented the topic under discussion (just > one time, I won't get into it after that anymore) > > If you think that your thoughts are not your 'own' (in the sense of > I-ness, myness), the way I have stated it, you are not special in it. > Rather it is true for EVERYBODIES thought as well. So you could not, > in any way claim to be on a special mission from God which would > justify a sense of superiority to others. In fact the opposite is he > case. I have clearly stated here, to Curties, and it was referred to > by others and well understood, that I think that he is an atheist > because God wants him to be so, as everything that happens IS Gods > will. In this case everyone expresses Gods will in he ame way! Its > even not possible in this way, to be 'in tune' with Gods will, becase > where is the point, if everything is already Gods will? Which should > not prevent you from doing whatever YOU think is the best action. IOW > behave AS IF you are in charge, but know, that here is no YOU there in > the first place. All this was pointed out to you many times. And there > is no doubt that Edg beautiful prose was just refering to THAT. So why > do you spoil the otherwise beautiful discussion? > > > Just my opinion, which is really mine. God had > > absolutely nothing to do with creating it. > > QED >
