Enough already! This is beginning to sound like Facebook. Frank, I drink tea. As promised, you buy.
Merle On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Victoria Hughes <victo...@toryhughes.com> wrote: > Jeees Louise. > … I've been trying so hard to curb my addiction to taking time to respond to > the continuously intriguing things that show up at the Friam…. but I must > say, Doug, that the phrase "violently disinterested" is a classic, even for > you. > And as long as I'm at it, Sas, I laughed out loud at your various > descriptions of the Vilmains, from your KaliLoki wife on along…. > Thanks you all- > Tory > > On Mar 26, 2013, at 12:04 PM, Douglas Roberts <d...@parrot-farm.net> wrote: > > This list constantly reminds me that we are all, thankfully, different. > Offhand, I can not think of a topic that I would be more violently > disinterested in than the "philosophy of causation". Unless maybe it would > be "the philosophy of complexity", or perhaps "the philosophy of agent-based > model design". > > But I acknowledge that a not small fraction of you eat this stuff up, so > please: have at it! > > --Doug > > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> Nick, >> >> >> >> Here is the complete citation: >> >> >> >> Glymour, C., and Wimberly, F. >> >> Actual Causes and Thought Experiments, >> >> in Joseph Keim Campbell, Michael O'Rourke, Harry S. Silverstein >> (eds.), >> >> Causation and Explanation: Topics in Contemporary Philosopy, MIT >> Press, Cambridge, July 2007. >> >> >> >> I’ll buy a cup of coffee for anyone who reads the whole paper. The book >> contains a number of papers by luminaries in the area of philosophy of >> causation including Patrick Suppes, Nancy Cartwright, Christopher Hitchcock, >> etc. I was surprised to find that it’s available on Google books: >> http://tinyurl.com/d9l44jh >> >> >> >> Frank >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Frank C. Wimberly >> >> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz >> >> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> >> >> >> wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu >> >> Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918 >> >> >> >> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nicholas >> Thompson >> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 11:57 PM >> To: russ.abb...@gmail.com; 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee >> Group' >> >> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] beyond reductionism twice >> >> >> >> Russ, >> >> >> >> I don’t know wtf I am. I have always thought of myself as a scientist, >> but I am sure that many on this list have their doubts. I am certainly not >> a “hard” scientist. >> >> >> >> I was hoping by my comment to lure you into a more lengthy explication of >> the idea that real scientists don’t think in terms of causes. But now you >> have smoked me out instead, so here goes. >> >> >> >> Many of the philosophers I know, from time to time like to talk about >> causality as if it were a sophomoric illusion, citing Hume, or some sort of >> weird quantum theory. But that does not keep them from using causal >> reasoning freely in their everyday lives. I have never heard a philosopher >> who was reluctant to say things like “my car stalled because it ran out of >> gas”. I think what they mean when they deny causality is the denial of >> something that, as a behaviorist, I never thought to entertain: some deep >> gear-and-cog mechanism lurking behind experience. If one once concedes >> that all one means by causality is some forms of relation between previous >> and successive events such that a previous event makes a successive event >> more likely, then determining causality is just an exercise in >> experimentation. The sort of thing that all scientists do all the time. >> Thus, while “causality” may be unfounded in some fastidious philosophical >> sense, it is by no means empty. I’ll quote below from a footnote from a >> paper we just wrote which tries to preempt criticism our use of “causal” >> arguments in the paper. The footnote makes reference to work by a colleague >> and friend of mine, here in Santa Fe, Frank Wimberly. I will copy him here >> to try and get him to speak up. He tends to lurk, until I say something >> really foolish, which no doubt I have. The whole paper is at >> http://www.behavior.org/resource.php?id=675 . So, here is the footnote: >> >> >> >> Some might argue that in falling back on a more vernacular understanding >> of causality we have paid too great a price in rigor. However, as our >> Seminar colleague Frank Wimberly pointed out, the vernacular understanding >> of casualty is potentially rigorous. Research investigating what aspects of >> the world lay people are sensitive to when assigning causality suggests >> people are sensitive to particular types of probabilistic relationships >> (Cheng, Novick, Liljeholm, & Ford, 2007) and that certain types of >> experiments are better than others at revealing such relationships (Glymour >> & Wimberly, 2007). >> >> >> >> Frank? >> >> >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Russ Abbott >> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 11:05 PM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] beyond reductionism twice >> >> >> >> Nick, >> >> >> >> You're the scientist; I'm only a computer scientist. So you are more >> qualified to talk about science and cause. >> >> >> >> Do you think science organizes its theories in terms of causes? I see >> equations, entities, structures, geometries, and mechanisms, but I don't see >> causes. As I'm sure you know, the notion of "cause" is very slippery. I >> think science is better off without it. >> >> >> >> But I'm interested in your perspective. What do you think? >> >> >> >> <image001.gif><image001.gif>[If this is a thread hijack, I apologize. I am >> very interested in the subject, though.] >> >> <image001.gif><image001.gif> >> >> >> >> >> -- Russ Abbott >> _____________________________________________ >> >> Professor, Computer Science >> California State University, Los Angeles >> >> >> >> My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688 >> Google voice: 747-999-5105 >> >> Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/ >> >> vita: sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ >> >> CS Wiki and the courses I teach >> _____________________________________________ >> >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 10:02 PM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: >> >> Russ - >> >> >> >> Steve, you mentioned Lamarkian evolution. I'd be very interested to find >> out more about some of your daughter's examples. >> >> This was on a long drive from NM to OR last Thanksgiving... in the course >> of about 30 hours of driving we talked about a LOT of things. >> >> I am pretty sure this first exmaple is merely "neo-Lamarckian" or >> "Lamarckianesque" as they only applied to the single next generation. The >> germline of the child does not carry the changes, although if the child >> experiences the same conditions the parent did, the same epigenetic >> mechanisms would be in effect in the subsequent generation. This example >> had to to do with Long Term Potentiation (a feature of neural connectivity). >> What surprised me most was that this particular example involved the >> female/mother/eggs which are not manufactured "on the fly". It seems more >> likely that the father/male/sperm would be prone to this type of effect? >> There may have been two sub-examples, one about memory and one about "bad >> mothering"? >> >> A more Lamarckian example was, I think, in Roundworms and involved RNA >> interference. The result (minus the details) was something like hereditible >> immunity. >> >> A parallel example I *can* remember was the case of Tasmanian Devils and >> what is known as DFTD for Devil Facial Tumor Disease. Apparently it is an >> *infectuous* cancer (non-viral, meaning it isn't about a virus transferring >> from one host to another, then causing cancer). A cancerous cell from one >> individual literally becomes part of the other individual's organism... like >> an accidental organ donation or skin graft. Apparently the Devils are >> prone to lots of scrapping with each other and when one with a tumor on it's >> face scraps with one without, a cancerous cell (or cells) can get >> transferred to from the skin of one to the other and it can in fact 'graft' >> right into the epithelial layer. I don't know if this is more common/likely >> because it is cancerous, or if Devils were already exchanging skin cells >> before this cancer emerged? >> >> The point of this Tasmanian Devil example is that it is as unexpected (to >> me anyway) as examples of Lamarckian evolution would be. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- Russ Abbott >> _____________________________________________ >> >> Professor, Computer Science >> California State University, Los Angeles >> >> >> >> My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688 >> Google voice: 747-999-5105 >> >> Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/ >> >> vita: sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ >> >> CS Wiki and the courses I teach >> _____________________________________________ >> >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: >> >> Gary/Pamela/(Stephen, Carl, Eric, ...) - >> >> I know several (many?) on this list know Stu better than I... so I >> apologize if I sounded overly critical. I prefer Pamela's description of >> him being *careless* with references as opposed to my own use of the >> *honest*. I also admit that I do not know if he sees himself as a >> rock-star... that is perhaps the default category I put people in who are >> simultaneously *good*, *self-possessed* and *charismatic*. I actually >> *like* most rock stars (within reason) even if I might not care for their >> music. >> >> As an aside... does anyone remember Chris Langton appearing in Rolling >> Stone (CA 1990?)... I searched their archives and did not find any >> references (nor on the internet at large?). I remember the article >> including a sexed-up spread of him in front of a Connection Machine? I >> suppose I could be hallucinating or have come from an alternate history? >> >> I also smiled at your term "demigod" as I often use "Titans" to describe >> the pantheon of my wife's sibling group... she is oldest of 8 *mostly* high >> functioning, *very* charismatic, *definitely* self-possessed siblings. >> They all revered their father who was a humble but charismatic physics >> professor. None of them took up science per se, though one has a PhD in >> psychology. I would not use *rock star* to describe any of their >> self-image, though there is one who insists he *is* Elvis... and sometimes >> we are tempted to believe him. There are definitely characters right out of >> Greek, Roman, Norse, even Hindu mythology in her family... My wife is Kali >> *and* Loki rolled into one I think. >> >> I have always been inspired by Kauffman's ideas as best I could understand >> them, which has been highly variable, depending on the circumstance. This >> says more about me than about Stu. I read his lecture notes in the >> late-nineties... the ones which ultimately became the core of >> _Investigations_ (or so it seemed to me). I had read _OofO_ and _At Home in >> the Universe_ previously. It may have been coincidence or something >> stronger like kismet that I read Investigations interleaved with my reading >> of Christopher Alexander's (Pattern Language fame) _Notes on the Synthesis >> of Form_ with D'Arcy Thompson's _On Growth and Form_ as backup reference. I >> was traveling lightly in New Zealand at the time with none of my usual >> distractions nagging me. It was a month of deep thought informed by >> Alexander and Kauffman equally. >> >> My nature is to be guarded around people with significant charisma (and me >> married into aforementioned pantheon!). I appreciate the need for and the >> value of the persuasive and the self-confident, even in the realm of science >> where ideas *by definition* must stand on their own. There is value for >> those who can bring us to *want* to believe enough to put in the hard work >> to believe things on their own merits. Unfortunately that might be the >> dividing line between science and Science(tm). I suppose I mistrust those >> who appear to be trying to corner the franchise on Science(tm) in their >> neighborhood. >> >> Nevertheless, I am *more* interested in Kauffman's ideas here and hope >> that we will discuss them a bit? >> >> - Steve >> >> >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> >> >> <image002.png><image002.png> >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > > > -- > Doug Roberts > d...@parrot-farm.net > http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins > > 505-455-7333 - Office > 505-672-8213 - Mobile > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA me...@emergentdiplomacy.org mobile: (303) 859-5609 skype: merlelefkoff ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
