Dear Martin, Dan and all
Thank you for such a detailed reply.
Le 20 déc. 08 à 00:24, Martin Shepherd a écrit :
Dear Anthony and All,
The double top course is found on everything from 6c lutes to
Mace's 12c lute, and everything inbetween. Three of our most
popular 7c lutes from the Venere workshop, the 44cm C39, the 58.7cm
lute in Bologna, and the 66.8cm C36, have their original bridges
and pegboxes and a double top course.
Most 9c lute owners, who have mentioned them, here, do seem to use
double top courses; perhaps, this is more because of Dowland's
remarks, rather than general evidence from extant 9c lutes (the
Matheus Buchenberg / Roma" 9c lute in Edinburgh, for example, does
not seem to have a double top course, unless this could be the result
of a reconstruction error?); while I have never seen mention of a
modern 8c or 10c lute with a double top course.
Perhaps this is because 9c lutes are still felt to be at "the cutting
edge" of research; lutenists are therefore, more open to trying-out
double top-strings, while allowing (even encouraging) lutemakers to
experiment hypotheses around diapason and tension with this lute
type, (as Martin's message here, seems to show):
http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg18140.html ;
whereas 8c and 10c lutes have, perhaps, become too standardized (ex
guitarists favourites?), for such experimentation, even if
historically, double-top might have been as rare (or common) on
historical 8c or 10c lutes.
Would the 9c string structure always have been associated with a
multi-ribbed body, rather than a Bologna-mutational type? If so,
would it also be safe to associate double first courses, whatever the
number of courses (from 7 to 11c), also with the multi-ribbed shape,
rather than with Bologna models?
As Martin said in his above message, the double top does seem to
imply a lower diapason (if not lower tension) than has tended to be
used recently. This could be indicative of a late renaissance early
baroque fashion that went beyond the double-top strung lute, as
lutenists at the moment do seem to be ackowledging: 392 seems to be
becoming almost standard for solo transitional and Baroque lute. At
least, that is the advice I seem to be receiving.
The double top course seems to have been relatively rare on 6c
lutes, and by the late 17th C the author of the Burwell tutor
explains the single 2nd on the 11c course by claiming that they
could hardly ever find two strings "to agree" - a problem which
would have been even more acute for a first course.
I do find the single treble courses on my 11c lute easier to play
clearly, than the 3c with unison double, even at 0,58. The lute is at
408Hz, reduced tension from 415Hz, so perhaps this is partly due to
the lowered tension. The Meanes with greater diameter do not seem to
present this problem. Although, I am newly adapting to TO for this
lute, and I don't recall having had quite the same problem for the
second course, when playing TI, on my 7C lute; but then that was at a
high tension and at 440Hz.
Nevertheless, I can just imagine how difficult a low tension double
1c at 0,40 could be, particularly if they are not almost identically
paired.
Working to obtain a better sound on the 3c does seem to be improving
my TO playing, just as Dan tells for the double 1c on his nine course
lute.
I imagine that if you are a TI player, and you acquire a 9c-double-
top-course lute, you would also feel obliged to swap to TO on that
lute (as Dowland seems to have done), while perhaps still playing TI
on your 7c lute (imitating, in that, what might have occurred
historically for Dowland, unless this change ocurred from 6c to 7c?).
Although, once Dowland himself changed to TO, I don't suppose he
would have swapped back, just because he happened to have picked up
his old 7c lute.
I think Martin mentioned he was changing to TO with this 9c lute? Do
you both, Martin or Dan, tend to make this TI to TO swap when moving
from 7c to 9 or 10c?
But I think it is fairly certain that the single 2nd originated as
a conversion feature (from 10c to 11c), and iconographic evidence
suggests that a double 2nd was also quite common on 11c lutes.
If we interpret Burwell's "keeping only the small eleventh" as
meaning keeping only the eleventh octave, then I suppose with just a
change to the bridge and nut, you could string a 10c as an 11c with
no extra pegs.
That was the interpretation that Chris Pearcy put forward in a
previous exchange on that topic:
I think the idea of the single 11th course was possibly
transitional - to make a 10c into an 11c set up with single second
course, leaving another single for the 11th. My understanding was
that this 11th course was an 8ve and not a bordon. Chris Pearcy
Another interpretation might be that French musicians were searching
for clarity, and everything was pared down to this effect, even
though more courses had sometimes been added. That is what Burwell
implies, but of course that might be justification of a practice that
had developed, originally, just to simplify altering such lutes.
Although, the actual quotation seem to be open to another
interpretation:
"English Gaultier hath been of another opinion and hath caused two
heads to be made to the lute. All England hath accepted that
augmentation, and France at first; but soon after that alteration
hath been condemned by all the French masters, who are returned to
their old fashion, keeping only the small eleventh"
"Small eleventh" could just be in opposition to big (or extended)
eleventh and twelfth courses on a 12c extended lute. However, as
Martin remarked in reply to Chris:
The author of the Burwell tutor is quite clear. He says the
French masters first adopted a twelve course lute, then returned
to an 11c, "keeping only the small eleventh" because the sound of
the low octave on the 11th is "too big and smothers the sound of
the other strings". He also explains how you can then play a C on
the open 11th instead of having to finger it at the third fret of
the sixth course.
You're right about the single 11th being the high octave, not the
lower - Burwell says it should be between the 5th and 6th in size.
Later authors clearly used both strings, Mouton for instance
indicates where they are to be played separately. (Martin Shepherd)
On 9 vs 10 courses - it's surprising how much music there seems to
be for 9c, and often in MS sources you can see where the piece has
been written for 9c, then adapted for 10. Just for the record, the
pieces by John Sturt and Jacques Gaultier used only 9 courses, no
need to stop any basses to get extra notes, though the source (ML)
is one which is fairly consistently notated for 10. For these
pieces, the 8th is Eb and the 9th Bb (nominal G tuning) - a very
practical tuning which makes the keys of Eb and Bb quite
accessible. Another nice 9c tuning is 8th to Eb and 9th to C,
which is good for pieces in C minor. Of course you can't play all
10c music on a 9c lute, but there's lots of possibilities. Vallet
indicates for each piece how many courses it needs, anything from 7
to 10. Perhaps the main disadvantage of the 9c lute is that you
need to do more retuning of two or more of the basses for different
keys, whereas on the 10c your main dilemma is whether to have the
8th at E or Eb.
I understand from Michael Lowe that Cuthbert Hely's music might be
the only extant 10c music with indication for a stopped 10-C, but
perhaps it is infact a stopped 9-C?
From my experience with 7c, for 8c music, I have the impression that
the less courses you can get away with the better, so I now rather
fancy a 9c.
Gut basses are easier to retune than wound ones, by the way...
I suppose if you have fairly low tension stringing you can just tune
up the relevant gut strings, rather than actually changing strings. I
imagine gut is just more stretchy?
I appologize for the disparate nature of my remarks.
Best wishes
Anthony
Best wishes,
Martin
Anthony Hind wrote:
On lutes, would it only have been nine course lutes that had this
double first course (as the one Martin Shepherd recorded with
recently, and Dowland is said to have played), or were 10c, or
even some 11c lutes strung that way (even if there are no extant
ones, can we be sure, they just did not survive, or is there some
reference to them as dated or old fashioned)?
If I remember correctly, Martin was recently playing 10c Jacques
Gautier music with his 9c, so I suppose the ninth course is tuned
to C-10, and has to be stopped down to obtain the D-9?
Can most transitional 10c lute music be played on such a lute, a
little like playing 8c lute music on a 7c lute, with the 7c tuned
to D (as I usually do)? Would this work well with most
transitional music (Cuthbert Hely, for example who seems to have
been a contemporary of Jacques), or might there be a sort of break
off point, where the double top or the 9c would be more incongruous?
Anthony
Le 19 déc. 08 à 23:06, Daniel Winheld a écrit :
Slightly lower pitch, and slightly lower tension; it's two strings
now and the whole course should feel (and sound) balanced vis-a-vis
the other courses. It need not have literally the same tension as
the
second course; but the feel of "balance" should be a steady
increase
from bass to treble at a certain point- 4th or 3rd course, usually-
not a sudden jump in tension. I have been bothered by the
double-first issue for many years, and it was not until I had an
instrument built on commission to a historic design that I could
take
advantage of the doubled first. Well worth the effort- one should at
least try it; one can always remove a string. -Dan
Yup--
The double first course is sorta the sleeper in historical lute
performance.
Along with the double course theorbos.
The top course doubled sound terrific at a slightly lower pitch,
seamless transition among the top three courses.
dt
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