All Too Suddenly...
All too suddenly All too suddenly, Our house is much too quiet. All too suddenly, There is no one to come to the gate to welcome me home. All too suddenly, There are too many leashes on the rack for only a one dog household. All too suddenly, I don’t have to struggle to get dressed in the morning, as a furry head forces itself between my legs and tries to lick my face. All too suddenly, I don’t have to fight to keep my place in the bed at night. All too suddenly, We have a lot of Halloween costumes that will go unused. All too suddenly, Our doorbell doesn’t sound loud enough. All too suddenly, The squirrels have unfettered reign of our back yard. All too suddenly, I don’t have a teammate to pull our cart. All too suddenly, I don’t know what we are going to do for a mascot for our draft tests. All too suddenly, I don’t think I’ve taken quite enough pictures. All too suddenly, The kitchen now seems plenty large enough to actually get around in. All too suddenly, I might have to join a gym because I don’t have to do the low hurdles around the house, any more. All too suddenly, I don’t have to get up in the middle of the night to let someone out or back in. All too suddenly, There isn’t enough Berner fur on the floor. All too suddenly, last Friday we had to put our dog Ranger (formally known as Swiss Star’s Black Badge of Curage, CGC, HCT, CD, NDD) down at the age of 10yrs and eight months because of bloat and gastric torsion. Within a half-hour of discovering Ranger’s problem, we were at the Emergency Vet’s. An hour later, after X-rays, we let him go. We had recently helped him through a serious bout of pneumonia, which gave us a couple of months of extra quality time to pamper him. That is time we will always cherish. For those of you that knew him, he led a blessed life. He was the dog who knew how to dance the hokey-pokey and performed a dozen or more tricks. He was the ever- tolerant dog that gave rides to the kids in the neighborhood in his cart. He loved to wear costumes and was the ever-popular clown dog at Halloween. His great personality made him the premier ambassador for the breed. He was my able team-mate for obedience and was the consummate demo dog when it came to demonstrating draft work technique at our clinics. He gave me the opportunity to get involved with our regional club as well as the national club. He gave me the opportunity to get to know a huge group of people known as the Berner-L, many of you that have become corresponding friends. Give your own dogs a special hug tonight because there will come a day when you can’t. Rest in Peace dear friend, I love you and will always remember you, you were a special dog. Jim and Anna LaFrom and Logan, who now thinks he is the King of the House San Jose, CA
Re: educated PPOs/Orthopedics
Karen wrote: "She has been in touch with her breeder who is devastated by this news and they are working together to try and determine which line this may have come down." I know this is a disheartening experience. But it serves to illustrate another important concept about a good breeder that often gets buried under all the discussion on clearances: A good breeder *cares*. This breeder is devastated. How many profit-motivated producers or ignorant BYBs would be devastated, even if they did find out about the pup's problems? This breeder is *working* to use this unfortunate situation and try to understand how it occurred - to prevent future HD cases. A good breeder is there for the dog and its owner, even when the "best laid plan" doesn't pan out as expected and results in genetic disease. I am so sorry that this happened but, this is the real world. It can happen to any of us who try our best, both the breeder who tries to plan a healthy litter and the PPO who has put countless hours into finding the right breeder and countless months of patiently waiting... you would think we should deserve a healthy dog who lives to at least 12 in return for our dedication, but it doesn't always work that way... All is not lost... I understand it is so tough on the individuals involved: breeder, owner, and of course the poor pup. But maybe the humans can find solace in knowing that they are taking steps to reduce future occurrences... and that the breed will benefit as a result. Thank you so much for sharing this dose of reality with us. Sharon Montville - Firstrax - Colorado P.S. I can see it now... the latest in puppy mill advertising: "we will be DEVASTATED if your puppy gets HD." Meant as a joke but not really funny. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com
Re: Trembling puppy......
Dear Valerie The disease you are thinking of is called Hypomyelinogenesis and is a condition in which the normal myelin sheath-axon relationship is not properly formed. It has been concluded that this condition is brought about by the absence of myelin on the nerve fibres. It is believed to be a simple recessive. It has been reported in a number of different breeds and is not present at birth but usually develops from about 2.5 weeks of age and is usually complete by about 12-16 weeks of age. Affected puppies tremble constantly except when sleeping. In the UK it was seen in the early 80's and suggested that one particular dog (an import from Sweden) was a common ancestor of the affected pups. As I remember the Brits solved the problem radically by removing from the breeding programme any dogs/bitches that produced the condition. Hope this helps although it does sound as though Chiara may be rather older than the UK pups when it was seen there. I have seen Rottweilers that tremble in the rear legs and I understand that there is a genetic condition in this breed that causes it. Marion Brown Teversal Bernese Mountain Dogs South Africa Dogs Never Lie About Love (Jeffrey Masson)
Re: ongoing discussion
The way I interpreted Pat's comment about breeders who "force" an owner to finish the CH on a "show quality" pup was like this... not sure if this was what she meant or not: Oftentimes, the breeder has a pup or two left s/he thinks are "nice" and wants to see these pups in a show home. In the not-so-distant past, Bernese were hard to find. So a person who really wanted "just-a-pet" might get roped into a "show pup" just to get a puppy from decent lines, soon... This person has NO intention of breeding, just wants a nice dog. They don't really know what is involved, so they agree to show the dog... then regret it. About 7 years ago, I was having a hard time deciding which girl pup to keep - both were nice. I kept both a while - until about 14 weeks - and then knew who I was keeping... the other girl was also nice. A wonderful couple, new to Bernese, wanted the one I was letting go. I talked to them about co-ownership, showing, etc. - clearly they just wanted a pet and so she was sold as a pet on spay/neuter contract. She is a beautiful dog. After she was spayed, her owners expressed regret about her "lost" show career and it was very simple - I assured them their dog wasn't losing any sleep over it!! She ended up with a unilateral grade 1 elbow so I was so glad that she was not placed as a breeding prospect (but to answer Darcy's topic, I do not think it is a crime to carefully and cautiously breed - and then *follow-up* on this breeding - a bitch with Grade 1 ED). Now, Sandy's example seemed to focus on ensuring that a "show prospect" is finished BEFORE BEING BRED and yes, I agree with Sandy on that. If someone wants to buy a breeding dog from Sandy, and she wants it to be finished before it is bred, I totally support her view on this. Does this make sense? I am not sure I really am getting the point across but I tried! I agree with both of these ladies which may be confusing. Sharon Montville - Firstrax - Colorado __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com
Re: BERNER-L digest 4097
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Re: MINI-FUNDRAISER TO BENEFIT CANCER RESEARCH!!!
Hi Carol, I'm so happy that your story has a wonderful ending - I think that the word "benign" is one of my most favorite words!!! It's great news that Stretch is doing so well and the NO CANCER report will help you feel a lot better, too! Thanks for your support for our fundraiser and for cancer research!! Hugs and belly rubs to Stretch!! Joye Neff and Winston (Samantha and Ben) Mt. Lebanon, Pittsburgh, PA
Re: MINI-FUNDRAISER TO BENEFIT CANCER RESEARCH!!!
In a message dated 11/13/2002 8:23:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Please help us fight Malignant Histiocytosis. There are far too many young and old Berners who lose the battle to this terrible disease every day. We need to find a way to eliminate Malignant Histiocytosis. Won't you please be part of the solution - we CAN and WILL make a difference!! >> Super cause, Joye, and super prizes! Wow, I want both paintings. Malignant Histiocytosis took our Arrow (Caroling's Pierced Arrow) at 22 months of age, and we've just been through a terrible scare with our 5 1/2 year old Stretch (Caroling's Octave Above). I was convinced that he too was going to be taken by histio. He went from healthy happy dog to sick dog overnight. We discovered he had a mass on his spleen, was suffering from thrombocytopenia, evidence of liver disease. I ordered the kit from Heidi Parker at Fred Hutchinson Institute by phone, she shipped it overnight and we drew blood samples right before Stretch had a transfusion. We got him stable enough for a splenectomy last Wednesday. He came home 24 hours later and has made a remarkable recovery. Just this evening the call came from the vet that the lab reports were back - NO EVIDENCE OF CANCER -- NO HISTIO! There's not much left in the checking account after a week's worth of critical care, unbelievably expensive drugs and surgery, but we'll definitely be buying some tickets for this raffle. Thank you for the opportunity to support MH research. Carol Lingley Ijamsville, MD
RE: Transfer Factor
I hope that Lisa got some responses from her post regarding Transfer Factor, I didn't see any, so I will give you my experience with it. Last July after learning that my girl Tulie was diagnosed with Hemangiosarcoma, I decided to give Transfer Factor a try. I tried it, well actually I didn't, Tulie did. Well, Tulie didn't either, because she wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Tulie is like a Hoover, she'll eat anything, anywhere, anytime, but the smell of this stuff was so bad, she wouldn't eat her food. For three days I tried giving it to her, but no go. The smell was awaful. Usually dogs like to roll in stuff that smelled like it did. I had no problem returning it and getting a full refund. I decided to go to a Holistic Vet. Tulie has been on something called Citricidal Plus, which is Wormwood. She has long outlived the 6-8 week diagnosis, although the cancer did recur on her head again, which was kinda expected. She just had another surgery and is doing great. Good luck with whatever you try. Tami Winner Merced, CA _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Behavioural Issues - Advice needed
Hi I am fairly new to this listing but have found it very interesting and informative. I have a 10-month old male BMD who i absolutely adore and who gives great cuddles. Recently he has gone through a few medical procedures (removal of a sock from his stomach and an infection following the operation). When he returned home after a four night stay in hospital may partner and i noticed some changes in his behaviour, he began to bite and jump on us. We first of all thought that it was to do with the duration of his stay at the vet but now almost a month on we believe it could be a greater behavioural problem. Does anyone have any advice? Kind regards Emily-Jayne Drew Australia CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER - The information in this transmission may be confidential and/or protected by legal professional privilege, and is intended only for the person or persons to whom it is addressed. If you are not such a person, you are warned that any disclosure, copying or dissemination of the information is unauthorised. If you have received the transmission in error, please advise this Office and delete all copies of the transmission from your records. No liability is accepted for any unauthorised use of the information contained in this transmission.
RE: Rescue Berner -- foster home needed ASAP!
Passing this along in plain text for Helen: >>In NJ -- 18 month, male, neutered, bred by Grace Bloemart in Alberta, Canada. >>Owner has an older Golden and a fenced yard and has done all she can to civilize this dog. He is VERY hyper -- destroys everything; chewed his way out of a metal crate, digs holes under fence to try to get out, refuses to housebreak (goes out, comes in, poops on rug). Vet's best advice is that he'll calm down when he is older. Ho, ho. Without seeing the dog in person, one can only speculate...so here goes... The behaviors described above appear to be manifestations of classic Separation Anxiety, Frustration, lack of proper housetraining, and attention seeking behaviors to boot. I question just how much time the owners actually put into this fella in terms of actual training. More in particular, housetraining. Was he ever properly potty trained and rewarded for eliminating in the right plae? Just letting the dog out does not guarantee he knows what to do there, other than sniff the world around him. Then, when he comes in, bang, he remembers he has to pee and poop. Did they hope the BMD would cue off the older GR's house manners? G! He definitely appears to be suffering from some form of anxiety...What is going on IN the house with the owners? Has he been physically corrected making him nervous and fearful? Ah...so many, many questions that need answers: How old was dog when acquired? What age was it neutered? Is he displaying any type of aggressive behavior? Has the dog ever received formal obedience? Has the dog been properly housetrained What kind of exercise does the dog get aside from being in yard with GR Is the dog left outside for an inordinant amount of time? What is the owner's schedule? Are they home or away most of the day? Have they *always* had this out of control behavior or is it escalating? Has the vet suggested pharmaceutical intervention? (anti-anxiety to help calm the dog so that he will be more receptive to behavior modification) Just off the bat, this dog has to be taken back to square one with a person who is kind, gentle but quite firm. They have to immediately implement a program of deference.. N.I.L.F. He must defer to the owner and by doing so, the dog will be given his role in that (or any other's) family's heirachy. His not knowing what is expected of him fuels his anxiety...part of that being he does NOT KNOW what to do and is left to decide what works for *him*. This makes any dog anxious...and when they are anxious, physiological problems arise...such as inappropriate elimination...fear and anxiety causes the body to *empty* itself (going back to a wild dog that is threatened will empty its bladder and bowels to be able to run faster to safety). Ever find you have to pee more when you are nervous etc, etc? They must leash this dog and take him out routinely for potty training, rewarding him when he goes... Definitely try changing the dog's diet...Barfing often helps tremendously. Have a thyroid panel done on the dog... My first suggestion is to get a work up by the vet...Thyroid in particular. Then perhaps get some meds or homeopathics into the dog. Change his diet. Naturally removing the dog from whatever is triggering his stress is optimum. Only good things ~ Helen Helen Hollander, CPDT The Educated Pup, LLC Lawrence, L. I., NY Certified Member Association of Pet Dog Trainers APDT #5888P exp.12/03
sleep walking?
Hi All, Has anyone ever had the experience of having their dog sleep walk? I've had a few experiences lately with my TM rescue which makes me think he does this. In the summer I was woken up by him a couple of times hovering over one of the other dogs in our bedroom growling like they're a threat only they are sleeping. When you intercept him, he looks a bit confused and goes back to sleep. Last night a fight broke out with my two TM's. It is not a nice experience to wake up at 2 am with that noise and try to break them up in the dark. I'm sure he did the same thing last night and she gave him the "back off growl" and he didn't. We seperated them for the rest of the night and in the morning, it was like nothing happened. They played as usual. Just a bit more info, he's a rescue because he was in an inappropriate home and out of control, not because he was taken from an abusive situation. He's 15 months old and is a very active dreamer. For most of his life until he was with us at 8 months old, he was an outside dog Liz Murray Calgary Alberta
bleeding gums
Does anyone have any experience with bleeding gums in Berners? Yesterday I noticed that Han's gums around his teeth were unusually red and several of his teeth had blood around the base. His mouth is definitely sore, he hasn't chewed up a remote control in a week. He had a bout of ulcers in his mouth about a month ago could both incidents be related? If anyone has any suggestions I would appreciate it. He is not taking any medications at the moment so that couldn't be the problem. Thanks in advance, --- Beverly Arnold
Moses' osteosarcoma treatment begins
Today we completed stage one in the treatment of Moses' bone cancer; the leg in which the tumor resided was amputated, the left rear, where the tumor was discovered on his femur. As many of you recall, my Yoda, too, lost a leg but NOT to bone cancer, in fact, no cancer was found in Yoda's bones, a tissue biopsy revealed synovial cell sarcoma, we consulted with Dr. Withrow at Colorado State University, world's top canine cancer specialist, and he advised amputation of Yoda's front leg. The amputation allowed Yoda (1992-2002) to enjoy an extra sixteen months (they told me maybe two years) of life, excellent quality. My soulmate passed away in my arms in February. I have more or less "taken" a crash course in canine osteosarcoma since learning of Moses' diagnosis, including joining a VERY active yahoogroups list dealing solely with such. What I learned made me feel like Augusto Odone played by Nick Nolte in the movie "Lorenzo's Oil" when he pours through the literature and learns of the course of his son's adrenoleukodystrophy. Basically, I have been feeling like there is a tractor sitting on my chest. Osteosarcoma is "famous" for liberally tossing microscopic cells about the body so it is possible Moses will also face some chemotherapy; we await the pathology results on the leg. Angell Memorial Animal Hospital in Boston houses some of the world's most special people and deserves the very highest praise. Dr. Trout, who did Yoda's surgery, also did Moses' surgery (and biopsies for both) and is extraordinarily gifted and compassionate. Dr. Brum, Moses' internal medicine specialist, ascertained that I received regular updates and, when he broke the news to me of Moses' cancer a short while ago, seemed every bit as sad as I was. And then there is Dr. Marks, my dogs' veterinarian for twenty years, an outstanding and compassionate clinician, a superb diagnostician, and a brilliant surgeon, who goes to the "ends of the Earth" for his patients to ascertain the best of care and treatment. Moses will remain in the hospital for a few days, will be monitored around the clock by his doctors and the technicians, the incision looks fine and Moses stood up to greet one of the technicians, just hours after surgery, even though he was not encouraged to do so and, I was told he handled the anesthesia beautifully! That's my boy! Lisa Allen, bone-weary and oh, so proud of such a special Berner! _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Hips, Elbows, X-Rays, Breeders, Owners...
Whew! Now that I'm caught up on my Digests I must say that there have been some lively discussions! (we've been busy with Jenny and Canoe, getting them settled in and realizing that yes, we DO have 4 big dogs!) Our breeder sold us a pup with one blue eye for the same price as her"show quality" pups. She gave us specific instructions on feeding, socialization and exercise, which we followed. She has been (and continues to be) available to us as a resource and friend. Our contract stipulates that Mickey's hips and elbows be x-rayed and the results be registered. We will also have to have his eyes CERFed. We have been VERY happy with our experience with our breeder. And I feel that our Mickey, who possesses a fabulous temperament, intelligence, sparkle, wit, drive, affection, a sound body and a desire to please, is every bit worth the price we paid. Some of the breeders on the List have mentioned breeding for temperament and health before "looks" and I applaud that. We have also recently taken in 2 more Berners - Jenny & Canoe. They are 9 and 5 respectively. Their breeder was contacted by the rescue group and as a result, we have also been able to talk about the girls. And last weekend, she came to visit and see just where these dogs (one of them, nearly a decade down the line!) have ended up. She has been available to us as a resource and now a friend! The girls need some TLC and Jenny esp. needs to drop about 10 lbs. But their breeder has taken responsibility for the dogs -- in word and deed. Although some folks have had sad or nasty or tragic experiences with dogs and breeders, we have had wonderful ones! Catherine Young in Madison WI Shadow & Mickey & Jenny & Canoe
Posters
Hi All - Anyone know where I can get ahold of some good, big educational posters? I'd love ones on: 'Reasons to spay/neuter', 'how to tell when your dog is overweight' and 'toxic foods/plants'. My training club has lots of wall space and I've already got the LOC poster and an AKC breeds poster lined up but I'd like to get others. Thanks, Mie
Re: Two young Berners needing homes (NOT)
<< In a message dated 11/13/2002 12:16:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Hi everyone, There are 2 Berner siblings, born in March 2002 needing new homes. They are currently being fostered for the Northern Virginia SPCA & can be seen at: Look at Max & Zoe at: http://www.spcanova.org/ >> As posted yesterday, the NOVA SPCA has requested that no one else call on these dogs. They have been swamped with calls and have more people wanting them then they can interview. Thanks, Carol Lingley Ijamsville, MD >>
Re: Fw: Ongoing discussion
Sent this this morning...haven't seen it show up. Sorry if it ends up posted twice. -SV In a message dated 11/12/2002 5:51:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Breeders don't PLAN on scamming their buyers, they don't PLAN on pups > becoming ill or dysplasic, they don't PLAN > on "taking the money and running" as some of these message seem to say. I'm afraid some are doing exactly that Sandy... Maybe not the ones you work with or chat with at shows...but there IS a whole other world of people breeding or brokering Bernese who don't give a whit about anything but profit. They breed for maximum production period...and they intentionally structure guarantees in such a way that they're unlikely to be utilized. Pay them some extra money and you get a lifetime guarantee!...just like the 'extra protection plan' when you buy a new fridge. Perhaps you haven't experienced these breeders, but there are many people on this list who have... either by purchasing one of their puppies or by rescuing them. And there are others on the list who will experience those profiteers ...unless we're able to help them discern the difference. -Sherri Venditti
Re: Two young Berners needing homes
I thought the word was out that those 2 already were adopted? Judith on 11/12/02 10:25 PM, Susanne at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hi everyone, > > There are 2 Berner siblings, born in March 2002 needing new homes. They > are currently being fostered for the Northern Virginia SPCA & can be seen at: > Look at Max & Zoe at: http://www.spcanova.org/ > > I thought I would post this information here because I feel that these dogs > will be better off being adopted by people who are familiar with the breed > & will have this large group of Bernese lovers to help & support them down > the road, as the "breeder" is obviously not there to support the dogs they > bred, nor any future owners. > Best, > Susanne Cummings & crew in VA > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Health & Wealth, Pure & Simple http://www.foreverlivingproducts.us
Re: Signature calendars amount raised so far!
Fellow "L'ers" I have heard that LSBMDC has already raised $1,000 for the Light One Candle lobbying effort.Come on folks we can raise more than that! This is a great cause -- for the future of not just our breed but other breeds to help change import transportation regulations. It only costs about $7-8.00 more than any of the other calendars you tend to buy for Christmas gifts well worth the extra few dollars spent! Contact Ann Landeros for ordering information: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out http://www.lonestarbernese.org/ and click on Signature Berners calendar for a sneak preview. Heidi is ADORABLE! Pat Tackett Texas __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Help!
http://web1.petfinder.org/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=1211795&adTarget=468doggenera l&SessionID=3dd254671dfb2091&display=&preview=&row=0
Thanks for responses ....
Just a quick thanks to those of you that responded on pros/cons of Rimadyl and Etogesic (now I know how to spell them too!!) Also thanks for the great links to see red Berners -- Copper is very cute indeed!! --Tracey
RE: Guarantee/Contract Issues
Talk of guarantees for human or animal reproduction always puts a Mona Lisa smile on my face. Guarantees are imperfect, after-the-fact solutions to canine health problems. They do nothing solve the precipitating problem -- disease or infirmity. Health data that are used by BOTH breeders and puppy buyers does that! It's what you do BEFORE you buy or breed the dog that gets you the best "guarantee" of a healthy animal. In some perverse sense, guarantees can encourage puppy buyers and breeders to be less conscientious about research, collecting and processing information with which to make appropriate risk assessments for a litter. People who study "risk", know that efforts to eliminate risk are very difficult, usually very expensive, and often impossible. According to Dr. George Padgett, a canine genetics researcher familiar with our breed, on average a dog will have 9 genetic defects. So in some sense, about the only thing a breeder can honestly guarantee a PPO is that her dogs will have some defects, but just which ones she cannot say with certainty. Having said that, with comprehensive health information on the broader family tree and a breeder who USES it in her breeding program, the PPO has a better chance of purchasing a dog with fewer than 9 defects. I am not a breeder (yet), so I have no particular bias for or against breeders. In their defense however, breeding is not an exact science -- responsible breeders are trying to manage the probability of disease/infirmity in their lines by tracking and using health data of those lines. When we use the word "probabilities", we are in the world of uncertainty. Diseases that are thought to be polygenic are squarely in that world, too -- hip dysplasia being one of them. What a conscientious breeders tries to do is reduce the incidence of disease as best she can with the information that she has. (If she collects none, then she is in a poor position to do that.) In reality, she cannot make absolute guarantees because, remember, we are in the world of uncertainty here. To force unreasonable, expensive guarantees on responsible breeders may reduce the number of people who are willing to invest in breeding dogs...allowing the puppy millers to fill the demand. Now, just because a breeder cannot guarantee with absolute certainty the health of a puppy that in no way absolves the her from the responsibility of collecting and sharing the health data (good and bad) on her line (pets and show) with PPOs. Breeders who do not collect data about their lines and who do not share it with PPOs will have a difficult time ever convincing me that they are "responsible" (my bias). They may be very nice people who know a lot of things about dogs, but I would not confer upon them the label "responsible." Being responsible involves educating PPOs on the risks of your line. All lines have risks. Without organized information on the broader family tree that sort of PPO education is not possible. Research shows that human memories are fallible and they are notorious for putting a more positive spin on data than the data deserve. It's all too easy for PPOs to put all the blame on the breeder. PPOs have responsibilities, too. When a PPO agrees to take a breeder's puppy, the PPO has accepted the risk associated with the breeder's line (provided their is no fraud). This is precisely why PPOs need to do their homework -- because they are assessing FOR THEMSELVES their risk. Recall, all breedings carry risk, so the PPO is trying to manage that risk in the selection of a line. While some may not like this analogy, consider researching a puppy to be similar to the process used in researching used car to buy. You don't go to the lot and pick the red one. Similarly, you don't go to the breeder and pick the one with the best markings!! The research is much deeper than that...it goes beyond what you know about Bernese Mountain Dogs generally -- to the level of what you know about THIS particular line. If you know nothing, then caveat emptor. What the breeder doesn't say, can hurt you because you don't know (1) if they honestly don't know or (2) if they do and are not telling you. In either event, your risk goes way up. The article that I wrote for the April 2002 issue of The Alpenhorn "The Value of Puppy Replacement Guarantees: Reflections on Risk to Prospective Puppy Owners (PPOs) also deals with this topic. If any one does not subscribe to the Alpenhorn, but would like a 2-part word version, I would be happy to send it. Nancy Melone, Ph.D.
Chaplin 4 1/2 mo "Project Chaplin"
Hi List Mates!!! Chaplin is so much happier and less howling from all your input. I printed out all your replies and the kids and I read them. I made it like a home work assignment. ;0) We we're s guilty of leaving shoes around, things on the counter. There new assignment is called "There new baby brother" So we typed up rules. No home work or books or shoes left around. You loose major points for dirty socks!! The list goes on and on, but they will get rewarded. They new from their teacher and my mom chocolate is off limits for dogs. The teacher lost her dog to a bar of chocolate. The kids hid the Halloween candy so he couldn't get to it. I have been keeping him busy with the Kong toys (when our Lab doesn't steal it) so now we crate him with it and stuff it with baby carrots, or frozen bagels. lol Crate is in the kitchen so I can always keep an eye on him. Thanks for the grape tip. He ate a fruit salad that had grapes in it, but he didn't get ill. Thank goodness. Howling was for attention, so I give him a job to do while I get my own done. He never howled in his crate. He likes his flannel blankets.lol He only howls to music if I 'm singing to the radio.lol Guess he thinks I lack talent!;0) Thanks again!!! Jen and Chaplin
Educated PPOs/Orthopedics
Hi All, I just got a very discouraging e-mail from a PPO who met me at a dog show last March. Because I didn't have a litter planned for another year, I provided her with as much educational material as I could and continued to stay in touch with her during her search for that "ideal" puppy, answering any questions she had along the way. She was a very good learner, asked excellent questions and when she found a breeder she felt comfortable with, asked me to take a look at the pedigree of the pups-to-be. As it turned out, the father of this litter went back on my girl Magic's lines so I had plenty of information on orthopedics, health issues and longevity. The dams side was a little less known to me but by using Bener-Garde I was able to atleast get the orthopedic info that I could provide her with. The dam's hips were Fair and the sire's Good. The dam's littermates and siblings that were in Berner-Garde all had Good hips as did her mother and father. I pointed out the fair hips but also qualified it with the related orthopedics. Orthopedics back on the Father's side looked good with the exception of the great grandfather (puppies great-great grandfather) who was mildly dysplastic. Although I didn't know the other individual dogs in the dam's pedigree, they all came from breeders I knew and respected. I told the PPO, if I was ready for a puppy at the time that litter was whelped, I would be interested in one from this litter. She went ahead and got her precious puppy. Her puppy has just been diagnosed with bilateral hip displasia and grade 2-3 patella luxations at 7 months old. It's disheartening for me to have tried to help someone, educate them into making the best decision possible when purchasing a puppy and then have something like this happen. I imagine she feels the same way. She did everything right, but still ended up with a puppy with inheritable health problems. She has been in touch with her breeder who is devastated by this news and they are working together to try and determine which line this may have come down. I don't really see any fault here. Everyone involved did the very best they could, and still these things DO happen. The plus that comes out of this story is that I think our educational efforts are working. This particular PPO did do "her homework". I had another PPO, when I told her about a puppy needing rehoming, asked the BEST questions (i.e. if the breeder is suppose to be "reputable", why isn't he/she taking the puppy back)! We have some failures, but all of our diligence, hopefully helps the majority. Keep up the good work! Karen Thoubboron Maibock Kennel Pittsfield, MA
RE: shared info
Fox 2 news did a VERY short thing on this story this morning -- I watched for a Berner -- but didn't see any -- I saw a 1 or 2 week old tri-colored puppy -- but it had a black nose; don't Berner puppies have pink noses?? I also sent this email to the morning crew for their "whats on your mind" segment (the email address is [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fox 2 Morning Crew: Rescuing the dogs & puppies was great -- HOWEVER, one has to think ... why so many puppy mills in Missouri?? Did you know Missouri is the "home" of the most puppy mills in the COUNTRY?? Where do these puppies GO?? Everyone needs to be educated... NO REPUTABLE BREEDER WOULD EVER *EVER* sell it's puppies to a pet store!!! Nor would they sell through newspaper ads!!! Rest assured that 99 out of a 100 times the puppy you see in a window came from a puppy mill!!! Besides bad conditions -- these puppies are likely to come from BAD STOCK!! That cute puppy in the window is likely to have problems with Hip Dysplasia, Elbow Dysplasia, Cancer, Cataracts, heart problems, the list goes on and on!!! And what do the new puppy owners have?? Can they *really* go to the pet store for help?? Most agreements say you can get your money back if the dog has been EUTHANIZED Where is the breeder for these dogs to help new puppy owners??? PLEASE PLEASE DON'T BUY PUPPIES FROM PET STORES!! DON'T BUY PUPPIES THROUGH NEWS PAPER ADS!!! CONTACT BREED CLUBS OR DOG SHELTERS FOR DOGS!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!! Owners would be so much happier if they had a relationship with an ethical breeder Please read this on air!!! ... please do a story on puppy mills!!! -- I think that the general public has NO IDEA where these puppies go or where the puppies they get are from EDUCATION IS THE KEY!! Tracey Conner Belleville
Re: LSBMDC Signature Calendar
Fellow "L'ers" I have heard that LSBMDC has already raised $1,000 for the Light One Candle.Come on folks we can raise more than that! This is a great cause -- for the future of not just our breed but other breeds to help change import transportation regulations. It only costs about $5.00 more than any of the other calendars you tend to buy for Christmas gifts well worth the extra few dollars spent! Contact Ann Landeros for ordering information: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pat Tackett Texas
Re: Guarantee/Contract Issues
I know this is from France so the issues are different and I have been reading with interest. We bought our lovely BMD from a breeder after much research (though not enough as I now realise). We realised things were not as they seemed when we tried to email and call for help with the terrible biting problems we were encountering. The breeder refused to anser calls or emails. Then Tatty got sick, ver ysick and as she seemed as if she would die I called the breeder. Did she know of any fmaily problems? I got a lot of noise about how it was not her fault my dog was sick (not what I was suggesting), and finally a small detail that one of her dogs had a problem with her throat (that was the entire info). The breed line certs never arrived. we bought a show quality dog so that we could if we so choose show her and or breed her at a later date. She is fully recovered, fighting fit and we would never give her back or want a refund if she turns out to not be show quality, or not able to be bred due to hips/elbows etc. Instead we will go to another breeder in Franc ewho has responded to our questions, who does not breed unless at least the last two generations are clear. The breeder I bought from has two litters every few months (as seen on her web site) not what she told us on the phone or in person). We should have known better, but when we were there with this new pup we were not going to say no! I am sure there are many more experiences like mine which colour the way us buyers see breeders, however my other experiences with breeders bith on and off this list has changed that view to one of FIND THE RIGHT BREEDER FOR YOU. We will look for a few years before we may or may not buy another pup, just so we know we have found a breeder we personally can trust. It is not about money, it is about ensuring we can make sure the breed stays as wonderful as it can, whether or not we start to breed. I am so glad of the help adn advice offered by breeders and buyers to me, that is seems obvious we need each other. And yes I do tell everyone not to buy from the place I did! Emma - Original Message - From: "Ruth Reynolds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:13 PM Subject: Re: Guarantee/Contract Issues > > > Ruth, > > > > I've always wondered why a guarantee would call for the return of a puppy > prior to any refund for health problems. I can understand why a contract > would be written to ensure the return of the dog to the breeder instead of > allowing it to wind up at the SPCA. > > ***Mind you, this is not the way I view dogs or selling them, Pat. > > ***Dogs are considered livestock in this country. Like it or not, that's > the way it is by law and it the common understanding of the public. It is > uncommon amongst even the most honest of livestock traders to offer animals > with a money back guarantee if the animal does not turn out as hoped. Take > this horse, ride him for a week. If you're not completely happy with him, > send him back for a refund. Take this bull, test his semen. If he is > sterile bring him back and I'll refund your money. > > ***I can see where a person who would sell a dog to a buyer might think it > above and beyond what most folks do to offer a full refund if the dog turns > out not to be what the person wanted. If the dog is truly so undesireable a > refund is warranted, after all WHY would the buyer want to keep it? I know > the answer to the question, but the point is, the person offering such a > guarantee or their buyer may not have even considered same. > > > But why would a caring breeder want to sell a puppy to someone who thought > they could ever return the dog? > > ***I would hope any buyer of one of my dogs WOULD return the dog if it were > unsatisfactory. I'd be very glad the dog was not a burden to someone who > perceived it as such. > > ***Breeder places a dog with a buyer who has intentions to breed the dog. > The dog develops not as the buyer wished it had and the buyer wants to > neuter the dog if she is to keep it. The breeder likes the dog and wants it > returned in tact so she can possibly breed and/or show the dog. In such a > case is not the breeder is fortunate the buyer is willing to return the dog? > > Why would a buyer wish to purchase a dog from someone who would expect that > as a condition of a refund for health > > issues? I've never understood that one. > > ***Perhaps because they have no intention of ever requesting a refund so the > whole issue is a moot point. I have no intention of requesting a refund on > any dog but if I did, I'd know it would be on the same terms as the seller > and I had agreed upon at the time of sale. > > > I love the breeders in this area that guarantee the puppy for health and > temperament - for a full refund on the condition of the return of the dog > and only if the dog is still intact. > > ***Yo do not love it, Pat. You despise it, just as I des
MINI-FUNDRAISER TO BENEFIT CANCER RESEARCH!!!
I am very pleased to announce a Mini Fundraiser to benefit research on Malignant Histiocytosis in Berners. This fundraiser is Mini because it will only run for ten days. It also only has two fantastic items. The fundraiser will start today, November 13th and will run until November 23rd. The drawing will take place on Thanksgiving Day, November 28th. A very generous gentleman artist from the Netherlands has donated two lovely paintings of Berners to help raise money for cancer research. Willem Wijnberg, a hobby painter, lost his Berner several years ago to cancer. Willem is legally blind and uses special tools to paint his beautiful Berner portraits. He wants to help us raise money to go towards a study being done in the Ostrander Lab at The Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle, Washington. Heidi Parker and her colleagues are trying to identify the DNA variants that cause Malignant Histiocytosis. Once an association is found, the team will define the region of the dog genome that is associated with Malignant Histiocytosis and they will then begin searching for the markers and mutations that contribute to developing the disease. The efforts of these researchers will, it is hoped, lead, in the next three to four years, to a DNA test using associated markers for this disease. By the way, if you have a dog of any age who has been diagnosed with Malignant Histiocytosis or a ten year or older dog who has never been diagnosed with any type of histiocytosis, you can donate a blood sample to this study. Heidi currently has 22 samples from control dogs and 6 samples from dogs with Malignant Histiocytosis. She needs at least 18 more samples from control dogs and 34 samples from dogs with Malignant Histiocytosis in order to start her study. Please consider being part of this study - the Berners you help and their owners will be forever thankful if this leads to finding a marker for this dreaded disease or leads to finding a cure. Karen Pickel has once again made a terrific website for our fundraiser, so you can see Willem's paintings. Be sure to check it out and to also click on the link for information on the study and how you can help: http://www.overthefence.com/raffle/CHF/ The first painting (14 x 14 inches) is of Yasper, the father of Willem's Berner, Dingo, who died from Malignant Histiocytosis. The second painting (12 x 10 inches) is of Jean Cheesman's puppy, Sam (from England) who died about 3 years ago from cancer. Tickets for the fundraiser are: $5 each??OR??3 tickets for $10??OR??8 tickets for $20 Make your US checks payable to AKC CHF (contributions to AKC CHF are tax deductible) and in the memo part of your check, write "Grant #2214." Please mail your check to: Joye M. Neff 1182 Firwood Drive Pittsburgh, PA 15243-1825 Please send me the following information with your check: Name Address Phone Number E-Mail Address How you want to distribute your tickets As usual, I can accept foreign cheques, with no extra charge from my bank. Make these cheques payable to "Joye M. Neff," so I can convert them to US dollars. Please help us fight Malignant Histiocytosis. There are far too many young and old Berners who lose the battle to this terrible disease every day. We need to find a way to eliminate Malignant Histiocytosis. Won't you please be part of the solution - we CAN and WILL make a difference!! Joye Neff and Winston (Samantha and Ben) Mt. Lebanon, Pittsburgh, PA
Rescue Berner -- foster home needed ASAP!
There is an 18 month old neutered male Berner in the NJ area who needs a new home, he will eventually be needing permanant adoption -- but for now most urgently needs at least an emergency foster. He sounds like a fun loving "wild child".energetic, digs in the yard, described as destructive, not fully housebroken. Lives w/ a male Golden he gets along well w/. The owners are frustrated and want to get rid of him right now. Please contact Margaret McMath ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ASAP if you could possibly help this exuberant youngster in need of training, attention, and love. Vilma Briggs (Kistner) Mt. Gilead, OH U-UD Mocha Java Slurp, UDX, HIC, TT Ch. Brighteye Expresso Bean, UD, NDD, TT U-CDX Our Little Buddy, UD, NA, TT and rescue Berners: Charm (Thirdtym's A Charm CGC) and Willow and now Ted
Re: Hip and Elbow Certifications
In a message dated 11/12/2002 5:30:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I was also surprised that I was unable to verify the information on her hips > and elbows -- only her number was listed, not the scores. Right now, the only way to get the findings out of GDC is to request a kin report...but that's changing. All of the GDC hip and elbow data is being merged into the OFA's Open database. In the not too distant future, you'll find information on GDC dogs right on the OFA website. Also, the GDC should be rolling out a completely revamped website within the next 6 months or so. I expect the new site will be more user friendly, will include data on the things not yet rolled over to OFA (such as eyes), and will focus on ways to utilize this type of information in a breeding program. -Sherri Venditti
RE: Re Contracts/Guarantee
Sandy, I think you are looking at this one the wrong way. No one should promise to finish a dog if they don't want to do it. It's a lot of work and a lot of expense. Promising to get a CH on a dog if they don't plan to do it is not good for either the breeder or the owner. It's not a contract that is suitable for that buyer and that breeder! A contract can be a good contract, but a bad one for the buyer's particular situation. Pat Long (& Luther) Berwyn PA
Re: Fw: Ongoing discussion
In a message dated 11/12/2002 5:51:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Breeders don't PLAN on scamming their buyers, they don't PLAN on pups > becoming ill or dysplasic, they don't PLAN > on "taking the money and running" as some of these message seem to say. I'm afraid some are doing exactly that Sandy... Maybe not the ones you work with or chat with at shows...but there IS a whole other world of people breeding or brokering Bernese who don't give a whit about anything but profit. They breed for maximum production period...and they intentionally structure guarantees in such a way that they're unlikely to be utilized. Pay them some extra money and you get a lifetime guarantee!...just like the 'extra protection plan' when you buy a new fridge. Perhaps you haven't experienced these breeders, but there are many people on this list who have... either by purchasing one of their puppies or by rescuing them. And there are others on the list who will experience those profiteers ...unless we're able to help them discern the difference. -Sherri Venditti
Trembling puppy......
Greetings from Switzerland! Our Berner puppy, Chiara, is 18 weeks old and she has begun to have trembling in her right leg on an irregular but consistent basis. I had at first thought that she might have been running around to much, but I now see that the trembling (it also looks like shivering) comes on for no apparent reason and it isn't everyday. She doesn't seem to be bothered by it and doesn't mind me touching her leg when she's trembling. A long time ago I had read something about this subject in an old book (I can't remember who had it) and they said trembling had been noticed in some British (I think) BMDs but Chiara is Swiss. Any ideas? Thanks, Valerie & Chiara -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-berner-l@;prairienet.org]On Behalf Of Bernese Mountain Dog Mailing List Sent: Mittwoch, 13. November 2002 07:01 To: Bernese Mountain Dog Mailing List Subject: BERNER-L digest 4118 BERNER-L Digest 4118 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Hip and Elbow Certifications by "Vicky Whitney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 2) Trouble with TP by "Erin Bradmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 3) Fw: Ongoing discussion by david and sandra ongemach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 4) Re: Guarantee/Contract Issues by "Ruth Reynolds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 5) Re: red Berner photo?? by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6) oops. by "Ruth Reynolds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 7) BARC question by lydia myhree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 8) RE: red Berner photo?? by "Pat Long & Paul Dangel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 9) RE: Orthopedic status of breeding stock -- The Role of "Pet" Owners by "Nancy Melone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 10) RE: Guarantee/Contract Issues by "Pat Long & Paul Dangel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 11) re; Puppy back by "mtndog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 12) Re: okay -- now what? by "Ray & Pat Burgett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 13) Re: red Berner photo?? by "Ray & Pat Burgett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 14) Berners being brokered by Swisskiss BMD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 15) Ongoing discussion by david and sandra ongemach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 16) RE: Trouble with TP by "Tracey Conner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 17) RE: Ongoing discussion by "Pat Long & Paul Dangel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 18) Confiscated Dogs in Montana by "jesse & shelley gonzales" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 19) Signature Calendar by "ptackett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: How did I get such a nice dog?
Carol- Thanks for writing about your experience in selecting Heidi. I think you represent the "American on the street" who is looking for a Berner. Sometimes we get caught up in all this hoopla about things to consider in buying a pup from a conscientious breeder and forget that there are other ways to go about the process that make sense to the people to use them. Thanks again for sharing. How old is your Heidi? Did you know about things like hip and elbow dysplasia in Berners or about hip and elbow certifications being a good idea for breeding dogs when you contacted her breeder? How did you come to know about them? Ruth Reynolds
Re: ongoing discussion
Sandy wrote: "Breeders don't PLAN on scamming their buyers" Maybe not the breeders you've been hanging around with for the past 40 years... But sadly, YES, some breeders DO PLAN ON SCAMMING their buyers. As someone who is acutely aware of the ways that commercial breeders are marketing their pups, I am seeing intentionally misleading statements on a regular basis. They "jump out" at me because I know how to read between the lines... for example, I know that APRI does not honor AKC's limited registrations. I know that it is *ridiculous* that a pet owner has to pay for a supply of a specific supplement, otherwise the guarantee is null and void - not that it was a great deal in the first place (40% off another pup from the same diseased lines - what a bargain - NOT - this is just a chance to MAKE MORE MONEY off the poor buyer). Telling people that Hungarian Bernese don't get HD... Telling people that their dogs are "show quality" when they wouldn't know a show potential pup if it bit them in the behind... the list goes on and on. Obvious scams to me... but not so obvious to the uninitiated... And then there are the ones that label themselves "responsible breeder" and go on to not provide one iota of info that a ppo could use to determine what exactly is meant by "responsible". Sharon Montville - Firstrax - Colorado __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Two young Berners needing homes
Hi everyone, There are 2 Berner siblings, born in March 2002 needing new homes. They are currently being fostered for the Northern Virginia SPCA & can be seen at: Look at Max & Zoe at: http://www.spcanova.org/ I thought I would post this information here because I feel that these dogs will be better off being adopted by people who are familiar with the breed & will have this large group of Bernese lovers to help & support them down the road, as the "breeder" is obviously not there to support the dogs they bred, nor any future owners. Best, Susanne Cummings & crew in VA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Puppy Pictures
The new pictures of the puppies at 4 weeks of age are on the WebPages along with some of the PPO's. Of course there's one of me with an lap full. As I looked the site over I noticed some misspelled words so please forgive the errors. Some of the picture files are a little larger so when you click on the thumbprint for the larger view it takes a little longer. Ray & Pat Burgett Eaglecap Bernese Talee,Lexi,Boomer,Bell & Max www.goodbernerfood.com http://users.eoni.com/~eaglecap/ Draminski Ovulation Detector Rep
RE: Trouble with TP
Erin Bradmon wrote: I have a 14 month old Berner = > Boy who while otherwise is very well behaved he has developed a sweet = > tooth for toilet paper. Erin, Is he taking it off the roll? or just chewing up the whole roll? We had that problem with our first ever dog. Solved it temporarily by turning the roll backwards and she couldn't get it off. But then she eventually went for the whole roll, we put it up on the counter on the water faucet. She grew tall enough and there we were with the same problem. It wasn't solved until she got old enough to spend her days in the whole house instead of the bathroom. Have you tried putting a loud pan on top that would fall and frighten him as was suggested for the counter surfers? Hope you find a workable solution. Been there. Done that. Suzanne Deering High POint NC
Update about Neala
Dr.D just called me to talk about our plan of action with Neala. At the check up last week she was able to feel 6 lymphnodes, which were about peasize. Normally they cannot be felt. It could be allergies or something harmless, but the antibiotics should take care of it. She has this one sided wet nose, her coat on part of her belly is matty looking, even after being brushed. Some of her skin is flaky. She does shed, but this is still different. Her ALT values more then doubled since June of 2001. We'll recheck her next week Tuesday and x-ray her. We also put her on some MilkThistle and some Tibetan Liver Herbs. Her thyroid is back in normal range, without medication. Wish us the best that it's something easy to fix. She is so happy when she can go for walks. So, we'll do more of them. Neala loves to cuddle and comes middle in the night into bed with us:) Sylvia
help needed (ASAP!) for rescue Berner in NJ area
There is an 18 month old neutered male Berner in the NJ area who needs a new home, will eventually be needing permanant adoption -- but for now most urgently needs at least an emergency foster. He is a wild child, energetic, digs in the yard, described as destructive, not fully housebroken. Lives w/ a male Golden wh he gets along well w/. The owners are frustrated and want to get rid of him. Please contact Margaret McMath ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ASAP if you could possibly help this exuberant youngster in need of training, attention, and love. Vilma Briggs (Kistner) Mt. Gilead, OH U-UD Mocha Java Slurp, UDX, HIC, TT Ch. Brighteye Expresso Bean, UD, NDD, TT U-CDX Our Little Buddy, UD, NA, TT and rescue Berners: Charm (Thirdtym's A Charm CGC) and Willow and now Ted
Re: Has anyone ever returned a puppy??
- Original Message - From: "Tracey Conner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Owners:: Have you ever returned a puppy to the breeder? If so how old > was the puppy?? Why did you return the puppy?? Did you get all your > money back?? Do you know what happened to the puppy?? Actually, yes I did. I returned my first Akita puppy to the breeder for a replacement pup. I had had him two weeks at the time, and cried all the way back to the breeders. He had a heart condition which may or may not have been something fatal (the kind where you come home and your puppy is dead on the floor, no sign of it coming). We would not have been able to find out whether it was the 'grow out of it' heart condition or the 'fatal, any moment he could drop dead' condition until the pup was at least six months old. My breeder pressed hard for me to return the pup and take another one of the males, because she wanted to keep that pup and monitor his health for herself, and she did not want us to take the puppy and become even more attached and then find him dead on the floor as a youngster. I took him back and brought home my beloved Rohan. Puppy #1 did grow out of his heart condition, was later placed in a show home for big bucks and became a CH dog. So, all were happy in the long run--the pup was fine and did great in his show home, I fell ridiculously in love with Rohan. On another note, I ended up passing on a Newfie puppy I was all set to take home because she was diagnosed with SAS in her final vet check at Cornell. Very sad for the breeder--every puppy in the littler was a heart puppy, in spite of five generations clear on both sides of the pedigree. Eileen Morgan The Mare's Nest http://www.enter.net/~edlehman --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002
looking for dog sitting help on Thursday at the Arizona regional -
Hello all, I am hoping someone might be willing to babysit or help babysit my boy Zack in Tucson on Thursday. Unfortunately, a good friends funeral is on Thursday in SLC. I will be traveling into Tucson Wednesday night at midnight and leaving for SLC on a 7am flight. Steve and Meri Dudley have graciously offered to babysit at the draft site but it would be nice if I had a back-up since they will be busy with the draft test. My roommate in Tucson, Val Horney will be in town sometime before I return at midnight and can pick him up and take it from there. She isn't sure what time she will arrive. Her 9 hour drive will determine that...If all fails I will return at midnight. Any dog walkers willing to help? He is really a good dog and I will have a crate. Just worried he might get hot in Arizona stuck in a crate all day. Please call me at 1800-869-7611 before 5pm tomorrow night or (360)961-3659 cellular. Sincerely, Lisa Ebnet and the Furry Berner Crew in Ferndale
Re: Ongoing Discussion of ED, HD and Breeders
- Original Message - From: "Valerie Young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > It is hard for me to relate to those who are looking for "show quality" > puppies and want their money back or want to return the dog if they don't > turn out to be perfect specimens. I CAN see if they paid a premium that > there is room for negotiation. But I still can't see looking at a dog only > for their potential in the ring (and as breeding stock). Aren't they ALL > worthy of our love and the best life we can provide? OK . . . I am not a dog breeder or dog show person, nor do I play one on TV. But I will take a stab at this, since I have, can, do and will again breed my horses (similar issues, more expensive). Let's say you are trying to get your breeding program off the ground. You want and need a certain quality dog in order to do this. You also have a limit to your funds, space, time, etc. Having a stack of pet quality dogs pile up while you try for the pup who turns into your foundation bitch might be unreachable. You need to either reduce your goals, or rehome the dogs which are not going to work out into wonderful, high quality homes which only want a lovely pet. My big gelding, Bard, whom I mentioned in a previous post as an OCD sort of fellow, was from a breeding I picked out and planned. I got zapped with the OCD; no history on mother or father's side (I know more than 50 of his 1/2 siblings, and I know a lot of the horses on mama's side retired sound from the race track, a rare accomplishment). He grew much larger than either parent, and it was just bad luck. Although he can be a useful horse at a certain level, that is NOT the level I want to achieve myself--I've already been there, done that, and have the T-Shirt. I can't afford a ton of horses hanging out here, so, he is out on lease. If the perfect home comes along, I will likely sell him, although as long as he is earning his keep and being useful to someone I am content to leave things as they are now. Do I miss him? You bet. Am I making the best choice for both of us? You bet. By the way, if anyone is bored and wants to see what I am more of an expert at than the dogs, feel free to look at "Moonlight's Competition Page" and "Belle's Competition Page" on my website; URL is in my signature line, just scroll down to the Horse Pages boxes. The white rolltop jump in the top photo with Moonlight is a max height, close to max width jump for my new level--I am starting to know we are jumping a fence these days! Eileen Morgan The Mare's Nest http://www.enter.net/~edlehman --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002
Re: Osteochondrosis
Cross-species alert! My big gelding, Bard, developed OCD during a late growth spurt (he is over 17 hands tall, which means 5'8" at the withers, and weighs in at about 1450-1500 lbs--much, much bigger than both parents). Although they do a lot of OCD surgery on horses these days, his was very mild and he was a poor candidate for surgery. I did Adequan and Legend and injected the stifle joint with steroids twice. Nothing worked, so I threw him out in the pasture and left him for a little over a year. At that time, I pulled him out of the field and trotted him up--98% sound, sounder than many horses who are ridden daily. So, he went back into light to moderate work, and has been working for a year now. He misses a step once in a while, and he isn't as strong on that side as he used to be, but he is well within normal limits for a horse working at the lower levels of his sport. My point is, I guess, even with OCD that is not a good candidate for surgery, the body can and does adjust itself given enough tincture of time. The vets said he probably wore the lesion to a more comfortable place just through his normal free exercise choices; they predicted that that was a possibility given how it looked in the initial diagnosis. Sometimes we look at these bone issues as the end of a healthy, happy life, and that just isn't necessarily so for most cases, in my experience (my beloved departed Akita, Rohan, had severe HD but it didn't really slow him down until he was getting up in years). Eileen Morgan The Mare's Nest http://www.enter.net/~edlehman --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002
Re..now what?
I too find that this thread is interesting and agree with most of what has been said about breeding and guarantees. When I sell a pup, I try not to make it sound like a good deal in that if the pup turns up dysplastic requiring surgery or euthanasia the pup price will be refunded in full. I go on further and let them know that while it may sound like a great deal, the price of the pup is only approximately 1/2 the price of the surgery. I also explain that I would be happy to take the pup back, but by that time the family is usually too attached to let them go, but I let them know it is an option should they choose it. I do have a comment on clearances though..one that can tend to get different opinions. What about Grade 1 elbows? I think that this clearance rating is VERY subjective, unlike hip clearances. Too many vets have way too many opinions on Grade 1's and I am not so sure I would throw the baby out with the bath water here. I refer you to the article listed at the BMD Health Links page (compiled by our wonderful Robin Camken) There is an article there titled, ELBOW DYSPLASIA: CLINICAL SIGNS VERSUS RADIOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE by Dean R. Gahring, D.V.M., Diplomate. I have copied the last few sentences of this article: >>>Grading elbows that are dysplastic may be helpful to breeders because it has been >shown that breeding parents with higher grades of elbow dysplasia result in a higher >incidence of dysplasia in the progeny. By only breeding normal or Grade I parents, >significant progress in Scandinavia and the UK has been made in reducing the >incidence of elbow dysplasia in Rottweilers and Bernese Mountain Dogs. <<< I simply do not feel there is enoough info out there about grade 1 elbows. I feel VERY differently about grade 2 elbows. I hope I didn't open a can of worms here. But I would love to hear others opinions. But please..no flames...just shared opinions. Darcy Babb Tijeras, NM
Re: Osteochondrosis
Hi Anne I can only give you our personal experience with OCD with our girl Ari. When Ari was about 8 mnths she started limping and after X-rays it was determined that she had a "joint mouse" [what they call the piece of bone that has come loose]...however in Ari's case it had not yet come completely loose. Evidently when it does, the sharp edges can cause pain when they jab into the surrounding tissue. We started Shark Cartilage and the Gloucosomine/Chrondroitin.shortly after that we switched to a BARF diet. Well, X-rays a few months later showed that a protective capsule of sorts had formed around the "joint mouse" and kept it in place. It never had a chance to migrate. We tried to keep Ari's antics to a minimum during those weeks...good luck! She is a crazy girl, whose play bows in the back yard are so forceful that you can hear them hitshe is a silly girl. Hope some of this info helps Cathi-see our babies at: http://community.webtv.net/bernerlover/LANDSLIDEBERNESE > I would appreciate hearing from others who have dealt with this condition...your experiences with the surgery, recovery, success, return to activity, or if you found rest to be a viable solution in lieu of surgery. > Thanks in advance for your input... > Anne (with Maddie and Titan) >
Re: Has anyone ever returned a puppy??
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Fw: Okay, What next reply
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Re: Ongoing discussion
"Book knowledge, information knowledge can't cover the emotions that it all entails. It takes BOTH learned knowledge and experience, IMHO." Excellent post Sandy. Bernerly, Mary Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
How did I get such a nice dog?
I find the Berner digest interesting and sometimes very confusing. I'm assuming alot of you know each other and enjoy "ribbing" each other from time to time. I don't know anything about breeders or how to choose a puppy, so I guess I should feel lucky that we have a beautiful Berner that seems healthy. We saw the breed on TV at a dog show and decided we wanted one. We looked under classifieds in the newspaper and found none, but when I went out on the internet to the Philadelphia area paper I found an add and we called. The breeder called us back several months later when the puppies were old enough and we went and looked. It wouldn't have mattered if it was hip dysplasia, or elbow problems or short life span, or cancer that we could eventually be bringing home, all we saw were 8 adorable puppies and the mother and grandmother on the premise to see what our puppy would look like all grown up. Picking one of the puppies was the hardest decision to make. The owners tried to ask us if we wanted show quality or not to try to help us choose, but we didn't know- we just wanted one to love. We chose Heidi and have loved her from day one. We did sign papers agreeing not to breed her and only received her papers after producing proof she was spade. They told us that only the pick of the litter would carry on the genes. We did receive orthopedic certifications on the parents and hopefully this was a reputable breeder. It doesn't matter, we would never give Heidi back and are very happy with our almost 2 year old. When we took her to our vet, he looked at me and said, "you must love her an awful lot!" I was surprised by his statement because I had a 13 year old mixed springer from the SPCA and a 12 year old Scottie and 3 cats(all of whom he sees)that I love a lot, but I understood later that what he was saying was, "he loved her a lot, too, he was smitten!" I've gone on long enough, thanks for lettimg me share in your forum. Carol and Heidi __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
