Re: [Vo]:Skynet Advances

[Harry Veeder]

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> Harry Veeder  wrote:
>
>>
>> If it responded to input from a leash it would not have to be so
>> navigational smart.
>
>
> I think the point is: you can tell it to go from point A to point B in a
> battlefield, and it goes by itself. Leading it on a leash would defeat the
> purpose.


Maybe that is the long term goal, but in this video they have the
robot following someone around.

"LS3 follow tight"

harry

Re: [Vo]:Skynet Advances

[Harry Veeder]

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> LS3 makes me feel creepier as it advances.  Falls down and recovers:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hNUeSUXOc-w


If it responded to input from a leash it would not have to be so
navigational smart.

Harry


> And if that didn't peg your creep-o-meter:
>
> http://www.geekologie.com/2012/12/nope-robot-with-human-skeleton-and-muscl.php
>

Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Swedish TV (SVT) show on Rossi Ecat

[Harry Veeder]

Just when this magic penny technology surfaces the Canadian government
discontinues minting the penny.
Coincidence or conspiracy? ;-)



Harry

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> Brad Lowe  wrote:
>
>>
>> The sad part is we have the same proof for the magic penny as we do for
>> the e-cat and Hyperion.
>
>
> It is not quite as bad as that.
>
> - Jed
>

Re: [Vo]:So what has been discovered is not a new source of energy....

[Harry Veeder]

Sorry, I don't.
harry

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 6:30 PM, David Roberson  wrote:
> This information may have originated from my simulation model of Rossi's
> device.  I have written about it on several posts in the past, but I do not
> recall that he supports the idea.  It would be interesting if you know of a
> reference from Rossi where he acknowledges that these two critical
> temperatures exist.
>
> Dave
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Harry Veeder 
> To: vortex-l 
> Sent: Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:21 pm
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:So what has been discovered is not a new source of
> energy
>
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
>> Harry Veeder  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I maybe be wrong but I think you told us his original plan was to first
>>> raise the temperature of the cell. That would have been consistent with
>>> how
>>> the E-cat operates,
>>> which supposedly begins to produce heat at a certain temperature but
>>> doesn't become (temporarily) self-sustaining until a higher temperature
>>> is
>>> reached.
>>
>>
>> I do not recall hearing that from Celani. You are saying that Rossi
>> reports
>> two different critical temperatures? One at which the reaction begins, and
>> another, higher temperature at which it self-sustains? If that is how it
>> works, that's interesting.
>
> I thought the data in the Essen/Kullander report suggested that is how
> the E-Cat performs .
> Maybe I am recalling incorrectly.
>
>
> Harry
>

Re: [Vo]:STMicroelectronics report on their version of the Celani apparatus

[Harry Veeder]

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> Harry Veeder  wrote:
>
>>
>> Does this mean they did not detect any anomalous gamma or neutrons
>> emissions?
>> If so then it is more evidence that the Celani doesn't produce excess
>> heat.
>
>
> Incorrect. Most cold fusion devices that produce excess heat do not produce
> measurable gamma or neutron emissions. Cold fusion is not plasma fusion. If
> it were, I would be dead.
>


I meant that if the excess heat is real and whatever the cause of the
excess heat, the excess heat  might force a limited number of
transmutations  and emit a small amount of gammas and neutrons.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:So what has been discovered is not a new source of energy....

[Harry Veeder]

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> Harry Veeder  wrote:
>
>>
>> I maybe be wrong but I think you told us his original plan was to first
>> raise the temperature of the cell. That would have been consistent with how
>> the E-cat operates,
>> which supposedly begins to produce heat at a certain temperature but
>> doesn't become (temporarily) self-sustaining until a higher temperature is
>> reached.
>
>
> I do not recall hearing that from Celani. You are saying that Rossi reports
> two different critical temperatures? One at which the reaction begins, and
> another, higher temperature at which it self-sustains? If that is how it
> works, that's interesting.

I thought the data in the Essen/Kullander report suggested that is how
the E-Cat performs .
Maybe I am recalling incorrectly.


Harry

Re: [Vo]:So what has been discovered is not a new source of energy....

[Harry Veeder]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> Teslaalset  wrote:
>
>> Celani was not able to allow long sustanable mode because this requires a
>> higher temperature, which is possible but not for a long period of time in
>> such transparant tube.
>
>
> No, that is not an issue. He wrapped the cell in insulation. This allowed
> him to lower the input power a great deal while maintaining the activation
> temperature. But he was not able to lower input to zero. He hoped to do that
> to eliminate all doubts about the calorimetry.
>
> His plan was to trigger the effect with a heater and then gradually back off
> all heater power. I do not know why this did not work. I did not discuss it
> with him. I heard that it did not work. If the effect is an artifact, that
> would be a reason for it not to work.


I maybe be wrong but I think you told us his original plan was to
first raise the temperature of the cell. That would have been
consistent with how the E-cat operates,
which supposedly begins to produce heat at a certain temperature but
doesn't become (temporarily) self-sustaining until a higher
temperature is reached.

Harry

[Vo]:STMicroelectronics report on their version of the Celani apparatus

[Harry Veeder]

STMicroelectronics report on their version of the Celani apparatus:

http://www.22passi.it/coherence2012/coherence%2014%20dicembre%202012%20Celani%20wire.pdf

On page 2  it says over a couple of charts:
"Neutron and gamma continuous recording in ST
lab. No difference for spectra during experiments
showing extra heat and background"

Does this mean they did not detect any anomalous gamma or neutrons emissions?
If so then it is more evidence that the Celani doesn't produce excess heat.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:So what has been discovered is not a new source of energy....

[Harry Veeder]

Yes, the Cerron paper was mentioned on MFMP site. That is what prompted my post.

Harry

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Jeff Berkowitz  wrote:
> For what it's worth, Harry, there is a bit of early history that played out
> in a way similar to what you're describing.
>
> Back in 1994, Focardi, Habel and Piantelli published this:
>
> http://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1994/1994Focardi-AnomalousHeatNi-H-NuovoCimento.pdf
>
> After which some folks at CERN published this:
>
> http://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1996/1996Cerron-InvestigationOfAnomalous.pdf
>
> YMMV.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Harry Veeder  wrote:
>>
>> ... Instead Celani, Piantelli, Forcardi discovered that when nickel
>> aborbs hygrodgen the thermal charactersitics of nickel change (by
>> making it less reflective)?
>> And Celani has discovered that this change is correlated with a drop
>> in the electrical resistance of the nickle.
>>
>> Is that it?
>>
>> harry
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Giant potato just misses Earth

[Harry Veeder]

or potato chips
mmm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnPGDWD_oLE

harry

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 11:30 AM, ChemE Stewart  wrote:
> Good thing else mashed potato
>
> On Monday, December 17, 2012, Jones Beene wrote:
>>
>> Giant potato barely misses Earth...
>>
>>
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/17/chinese_probe_visits_asteroid_toutat
>> is/
>>
>> The Maya miscalculated its orbit 500 years ago - they thought it would hit
>> us on Friday.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Request about off-topic threads.

[Harry Veeder]

the sequence of on-off messages is a hidden message in binary code
;-)
Harry

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 5:58 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Jeff Berkowitz  wrote:
>> Just please don't put anything about alternative energy in an off-topic
>> thread. That was those of us interested in alternative energy can just
>> ignore the off-topic threads.
>
> http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/12/english-transcript-of-svt-cold-fusion-program/
>
> Oops!  Sorry; but, you didn't label it off-topic.
>

Re: [Vo]:New Data "Worrying" 2000 climatologists about Global Warming ....

[Harry Veeder]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:
> Harry, You said it best yourself.  It "may still" .

Here is the paper on which the article is based.
Check the graphs and judge for yourself whether the steady
temperatures from 1998-2008 is strong evidence there that is no AGW .
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/stock/files/PNAS_Paper_Final_with_figs.pdf




>
> Why not settle the science before forcing draconian measures?  To fix a
> "may" and a "possibility" is both expensive and irreponsible.
>
> What is so unreasonble with that stand? as if I am some rabid anti-AGW and
> oil producer puppet as some have implied.  In fact, I can assure you, I am
> doing more to lower my carbon footprint than almost all here, including that
> most rabid AGW propagandists in this forum.  And I am doing it voluntarily.
> I am set to spend over $50,000 for some biogas, wind and solar systems to
> wean myself from my carbon footprint.  I dare you to find anyone of the AGW
> propagandists in this forum willing to make that level of commitment.  Like
> I said, going green is sensible if you give people a choice; not force it
> down their throats.

> So, enough of this AGW propaganda.  If you devote as much effort in weaning
> yourself from raghead oil than the amount of effort you put into promoting
> it, you would have gone a long ways.


Everyone doesn't enjoy direct command over their power resources as you do.
Most people have to act "collectively"  through their government to
effect change.

Harry

>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Harry Veeder" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:New Data "Worrying" 2000 climatologists about Global
> Warming 
>
>
>> I guess a true global temperature would
>> be an average over all altitudes... which may still be rising?
>>
>> Harry
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:New Data "Worrying" 2000 climatologists about Global Warming ....

[Harry Veeder]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:
> Here's some new data that is "worrying" 2000 climatologists about Global
> Warming 
>
> Obviously, since 2000 of them were right, this new data must be wrong.
>
> This first link shows the rate of ice melting leading to the conclusion that
> Global Warming must be accelerating???
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/28/sea_levels_new_science_climate_change/
>
>
> Then, to confirm it, this 2nd link "definitely" shows that Global warming is
> occuring that is "correlated" to the amount of C02 that man pumps out into
> the atmosphere 
>
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/29/wmo_global_temp_figures_2012_doha_ninth_hottest/
>
>
> But, what do I know.  I'm not one of those 2000 climatologists who where NOT
> bribed or threatened in any way.  And since, there's 2000 of them; there's
> only one of me.  They must be right and I am wrong and anybody questioning
> their conclusions must be nuts.  Right Jed?
>
>
> Hey, if others can violate forum list rules with impunity regarding AGW
> propaganda, I should be able to do the opposite propaganda with impunity...
> right?

Look at the last paragraph from the second link:
"We are investigating why the temperature rise at the surface has
slowed in recent years, including how ocean heat content changes and
the effects of aerosols from atmospheric pollution may have influenced
global climate."

In this article it would seem "global temperature" refers to just the
temperature at the *surface*. I guess a true global temperature would
be an average over all altitudes... which may still be rising?

Harry

Re: [Vo]:So what has been discovered is not a new source of energy....

[Harry Veeder]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> I do not think it is clear yet what has been discovered. The story so far:
>
> At ICCF17, McKubre called into question Celani's calorimetry. Celani said he
> would try to put these doubts to rest by making the cell self sustain. He
> tried, but he could not. That's bad news.
>
> Celani himself said the calorimetry was kind of primitive "thermometry"
> measuring the temperature at one point only. That is not how to do it well.
> If the temperature rise is large enough that can be definitive. But it is
> better to improve the calorimetry, I think.
>
> The MFM people set up a configuration similar to his. They got much more
> stable heat. As far as I am concerned, that's bad too. It is much too
> stable. Real anomalous heat does not look like that. Even Arata's
> ultra-stable heat declined gradually over time.
>
> The MFM found that one of the temperature sensors does not agree with the
> others, and it is stuck at the level it should be with no anomalous heat.
> That's really bad news! If it were malfunctioning it would not be at that
> temperature. It would be at some random temperature.
>
> All in all, things are not looking good for this wire experiment, but I
> would not draw any conclusions yet. We may never be able to draw
> conclusions.
>
> One conclusion I would reach, that I reached 20 years ago in fact, is that
> you really have to understand calorimetry to do these experiments. A lot of
> people don't understand it. I wish they would read Ed's paper on the
> subject, and books.

Ed Storms first post on the MFPM site sounded arrogant.
However, I suspect even he will learn something about calorimetry from
this experiment,
because this is not an electrochemical cell which is his forte.

> They are learning. They can do it again. It will not take long, and it will
> not take a lot of effort to improve the calorimeter and try again. When you
> do research, you do things over and over and OVER again. It is like
> programming, or cooking, or -- as Martin used to say -- like riding a
> beat-up old bicycle. You do it until it is second-nature. You develop a deep
> "feel" for the instrument and its quirks.
>
> - Jed
>

Harry

Re: [Vo]:wow I think we can call Irving Langmuir "father of cold fusion".

[Harry Veeder]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:47 AM, Jones Beene  wrote:
> -Original Message-
> From: Harry Veeder
>
> I suspect there is something important missing from this account.
> What prompted Moller to look at Langmuir's work in the firstplace?
>
>
> The impetus was that Moller, who is Danish, found and read private letters
> from Bohr (the great Dane) to Langmuir. These are in a collection of
> memorabilia in Copenhagen - in the Bohr library but have never been
> published. You will have to go there if you want to confirm this story -
> which was told to me first-hand by Nicholas Moller.
>
> These letters indicate that Langmuir when he was developing his hydrogen
> torch found and documented anomalous and large thermal gain but could not
> explain it.
>
> Bohr who was Langmuir's mentor at this time and the most respected physicist
> in the World (probably) strongly advised Langmuir NOT to publish this, for
> fear that he would be laughed out of the physic's establishment.
>
> Most ironic - in terms of what happened later. You remember the term
> "pathological science", no? It has a twisted history.
>

Yes it is ironic.

Science comes from the Latin word scientia meaning knowledge

The Renaissance had "heretical" science.
Today we have "pathological" science.


harry

[Vo]:So what has been discovered is not a new source of energy....

[Harry Veeder]

... Instead Celani, Piantelli, Forcardi discovered that when nickel
aborbs hygrodgen the thermal charactersitics of nickel change (by
making it less reflective)?
And Celani has discovered that this change is correlated with a drop
in the electrical resistance of the nickle.

Is that it?

harry

Re: [Vo]:tunneling in chemical reactions, esp. involving H transfer

[Harry Veeder]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:
> Researchers at the University of Georgia in the US have discovered a
> possible form of tunneling in connection with chemical reactions, especially
> if hydrogen transfer is involved:
>
> http://news.uga.edu/releases/article/uga-researcher-discovery-new-force-chemical-reactions/
>
> (From a link posted by Ron B to the MFPM comments section of the most recent
> blog post.)
>
> Eric
>

That is the first depiction I have ever seen of Schrodinger's cat
escaping from Schrodinger's box.
What is the world comming to when Schrodinger's Cat won't stay put? ;-)

Harry

Re: [Vo]:wow i think we can call Irving Langmuir "father of cold fusion".

[Harry Veeder]

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 11:26 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
 wrote:
> At 09:50 AM 12/16/2012, Jones Beene wrote:
>
>> There are other Naudin sites which suffer the same problem.
>>
>> Jones
>
>
> I see that Sterling Allen's page on the MHG project by Naudin never
> benefited from an explanation of the input power error. It's got some
> enthusiastic posts from you. Maybe you'd like to be the one to add a comment
> there?
>
> http://pesn.com/2005/06/26/9600116_Naudin_MAHG/
>
> This is listed by PESN as an "Open Sourcing Project/Active Tier 2"
>
> Looks totally dead to me.
>
> PESN repeats the claim that the Moller work is "Based on decades-old
> concepts set forth by Nobel laureate."
> http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:GIFNET#In_the_News
>
> That is highly misleading. Langmuir did not report an energy anomaly. Moller
> has himself made an error of three decimal places (interpreting Kcal as cal)
> in understanding the heat of dissociation of molecular hydrogen into atomic
> hydrogen, thus misinterpreting Langmuir's figures as somehow indicating a
> far higher heat of recombination than dissociation. In fact, Langmuir's
> figure was a little low, it was obviously an approximation.

I suspect there is something important missing from this account. What
promted Moller to look at Langmuir's work in the first place?

Harry

Re: [Vo]:MFM Cell #2 Temperatures

[Harry Veeder]

On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Craig  wrote:
> OK, when I compare the actual values of the running cell #2 with this
> calibration template, I can see that T_GlassIn is roughly the same, but
> both T_GlassOut and T_Mica are higher in the live test.
>
> Calibration Run from Frame 15 in the link.
>
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9qCtGOFmvhmWXUxWGRxYXFmMzg/edit?pli=1
>
> Power (Red) =~  53.4
> T Glass In =~ 130.5
> T Glass Out =~  110.0
> T Ambient =~ 18.8
> T Mica =~  172.9
>
> Live Run
>
> Power (Red) =~   54.0
> T Glass In =~ 130.8
> T Glass Out =~  119.3
> T Ambient =~  20.6
> T Mica =~  193.5
>
> So, wouldn't the fact that the temperature of the core is significantly
> hotter also be an indication that they are actually seeing excess heat?
> (isn't that T Mica)

Personally, I would say yes. However, it is not conclusive because the
data has some of the characteristics
of an artifact as well.


>This makes T Glass In look suspicious, rather than
> the T Glass Out measurement.
>
> Craig
>

Harry

[Vo]:update: Ambient and T_Glassout are not entirely correlated now

[Harry Veeder]

update from quantumheat.org
--
 #46 Sanjeev 2012-12-15 23:05

Very unusual behavior. Ambient and T_Glassout are not entirely
correlated now. There is a trend in last 10 hours.

http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/follow/177-write-up-of-eu-cell-baselines

enlarged view
http://i49.tinypic.com/2lxa2vo.jpg
--

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Fw: Something Wrong With The Sun Moon & Earth.

[Harry Veeder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y7rtUHSolI

harry

Re: [Vo]:MFMP: Temperature of inner glass surface.

[Harry Veeder]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 3:00 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> Harry Veeder  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/follow/177-write-up-of-eu-cell-baselines
>>
>> If the higher temperature on the outer surface is not an artifact,
>> wouldn't you expect the inner surface temperature to be somewhat
>> higher as well?
>
>
> Yup. I am sure it should be higher.
>
> Sigh . . .
>
> - Jed
>

Then again maybe the behaviour is analogous to the sun's corona. The
corona sphere is at a higher temperature then the surface of the sun
which is the opposite of what you would expect from a straightforward
application of thermodynamics.

harry

[Vo]:MFMP: Temperature of inner glass surface.

[Harry Veeder]

The excess power estimate of the test run  is based on a higher
temperature reading of the outer surface of the glass as compared to a
lower temperature reading during the calibration runs

However, someone named ECCO has noticed that the temperature of the
inner glass surface is the same in the both the test run and the
calibration runs:

http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/follow/177-write-up-of-eu-cell-baselines

If the higher temperature on the outer surface is not an artifact,
wouldn't you expect the inner surface temperature to be somewhat
higher as well?


harry

Re: [Vo]:OT (Holiday Spirit): Christmas Flash Mob... or Group Mind occasionally waking up?

[Harry Veeder]

On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 10:15 PM,   wrote:
> In reply to  Abd ul-Rahman Lomax's message of Thu, 13 Dec 2012 14:31:04 -0500:
> Hi,
> [snip]
>>It's also not necessary to explain human behavior, AFAIK. Look, that
>>resonance is ELF. Possible data rate, a few Hz, maybe. No mechanism
>>known for even emitting signals. No signals observed.
>>
> [snip]
> I agree, it isn't necessary to explain human behaviour, however I have 
> personal
> reasons for believing that it is real nevertheless.
> As for the Schumann resonance, yes, I know it's ELF, but it is nicely synced
> with the human alpha brainwave rhythm, and I suspect, though I don't have the
> math background to back it up, that it may be possible to "invisibly" encode a
> high frequency signal in a low frequency medium, though it may not be EMF but
> perhaps just EF or MF?? Perhaps something along the lines of a modulated
> Aharonov–Bohm effect?
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
>

besides frequency and amplitude modulation, phase shifting is another
way to encode information
in a waveform.

harry
Harry

Re: [Vo]:MFM Project

[Harry Veeder]

On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Craig  wrote:
> On 12/13/2012 11:52 AM, Jones Beene wrote:
>> You may personally not want to make this important distinction, but "cold
>> fusion" obviously refers to fusion, most notably with deuterium - and this
>> is only a fraction of what can be covered by LENR. The term "cold fusion"
>> should be dropped for all references to NiH - unless and until there is
>> arguable evidence of fusion. There is none.
>>
>>
>
> Didn't Eugene Mallove once write, when referring to pathological
> skeptics, that we must keep the name 'Cold Fusion' so that we can hear
> them utter the words they so dreaded, after Pons and Fleishmann have
> been shown to be correct?
>
> Craig
>

Mallove knew what it is on a poetic level:
Fire from Ice.

The rest is just science. ;-)

Harry

Re: [Vo]:MFM Project

[Harry Veeder]

An elecrochemical environment might simply be more complex and so the
power produced is more erractic. A notable exception is "heat after
death" when an electrolyte boils away and becomes more like a Celani
wire in a gaseous environment.

Harry

On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> Jones Beene  wrote:
>
>> That is not typical. The key to Dardik's technique - the very essence - is
>> to provide the "superwave" of power input . . .
>
>
> Input is atypical, but the fluctuations in output are typical.
>
> Here is another example:
>
> http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/McKubre-graph-2.jpg
>
> The fluctuations in the live cell are larger than the ones in the control
> cell.
>
> Figure 1 here shows a remarkably stable reaction:
>
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesMelectrochec.pdf
>
> It still fluctuations more than the MFM reaction.
>
> - Jed
>

Re: [Vo]:Direct heating of Celani's wire at EU cell of MFMP

[Harry Veeder]

I wonder if  Rossi has observed a similar breathing effect. Recalling
the graph from his sept (?) 2011 demo reminds me of the first
oscillation of the graph below.
Rossi may have choosen to limit the length of his public
demonstrations to conceal the oscillations and perhaps his diffiiculty
in maintaining and/or modulating them.
Harry

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Craig  wrote:
> This is so strange. I set the data in View Test Celani Cell #2, found here:
>
> http://data.hugnetlab.com/
>
> to view back 4 hours. Then I selected only P_Xs Low. Notice that the excess
> power is oscillating between 4 watts and 8 watts, in a very precise rhythm,
> with each wave appearing to have the same shape, and with each wave lasting
> about an hour. I also see that the wave appears to be tapering with the lows
> becoming higher and the heights become lower. There also seems to be a
> correlation with T_Ambient, but why?
>
> Very strange.
>
> Craig
>
> On 12/12/2012 09:05 PM, Terry Blanton wrote:
>
> On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 7:47 PM, David Roberson  wrote:
>
> Why do we see a breathing type of effect?
>
> This is exactly the term used by McKubre.  It occurs in DPd reactions
> as the metal is loaded to 90+% then allowed to unload.  The gas moves
> into the crystal structure and out again.  It is the motion of the
> loaded gas which affects the reaction in PdD.
>
> Can we relate the same to NiH somehow?
>
>

Re: [Vo]:MFM Project

[Harry Veeder]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:39 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
 wrote:
> At 04:47 PM 12/12/2012, Craig wrote:
>>
>> The have 48 watts of input power now and are getting out 52 - 54 watts on
>> their conservative estimate. Their optimistic estimate shows them at  around
>> 67 - 70 watts out.
>
>
> This may be unfair, because it's a reaction to Craig's comment and not the
> MFM results, but "conservative" and "optimistic" don't really have a place
> in scientific reports. What we want to know is the measure of output power,
> the error bar. It's sounding like it's 52-70 watts, which would be amazingly
> imprecise. (Pons-Fleischmann were measuring in milliwatts, if I'm correct,
> using complex isoperibolic calorimetry, and the accuracy of SRI flow
> calorimetry, solid and much simpler but less precise, was, as I recall +/-
> 50 mW.)
>
> With that much imprecision, the input power of 48 watts is only slightly
> outside the error, and some relatively small unidentified effect might
> explain it.
>
> I'm hoping it's unfair

Unless one is trying to see if the data points are consistent with a
*predicted* curve, I don't think error bars are particularly
instructive at this time.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:MFM Project

[Harry Veeder]

Thanks. I hope they do the calorimetry soon.
That should reveal or eliminate any possible heating artifact once and for all.

harry

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Akira Shirakawa
 wrote:
> On 2012-12-12 23:39, Harry Veeder wrote:
>>
>> I am confused about the location(s). Where exactly is/are the Celani
>> replications occuring?
>
>
> In Europe (France) and in the US (Minnesota).
>
> The replication apparently showing excess heat as of now is the European
> one, which is very close to the original Celani experiment (using a
> borosilicate glass tube).
>
> They're planning to set up several different cells soon in the Minnesota lab
> in order to more confidently replicate the excess heat effect and verify
> that it's indeed real.
>
> Cheers,
> S.A.
>

Re: [Vo]:MFM Project

[Harry Veeder]

ok, thanks
harry

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 5:44 PM, Arnaud Kodeck  wrote:
> Minnesota for US
> South of France for EU
>
>> I am confused about the location(s). Where exactly is/are the Celani
>> replications occuring?
>>
>> Harry
>

Re: [Vo]:Cap carbon emissions, pay dividends to everyone

[Harry Veeder]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> Good idea!
>
> - Jed
>

another good idea which will be ignored. ;-)

Harry

Re: [Vo]:MFM Project

[Harry Veeder]

I am confused about the location(s). Where exactly is/are the Celani
replications occuring?

Harry

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Akira Shirakawa
 wrote:
> On 2012-12-12 22:47, Craig wrote:
>>
>> The have 48 watts of input power now and are getting out 52 - 54 watts
>> on their conservative estimate. Their optimistic estimate shows them at
>> around 67 - 70 watts out.
>
>
> The conservative estimate is *really* conservative. Basically, it's the
> calibration with the inert wire which gave the highest external glass
> temperature readings, putting aside that it was running at a lower hydrogen
> pressure (which increases glass temperatures slightly).
>
> Cheers,
> S.A.
>

[Vo]:Cap carbon emissions, pay dividends to everyone

[Harry Veeder]

Want the public to heed global warming threats? Cap carbon emissions,
pay dividends to everyone

http://bangordailynews.com/2012/12/11/opinion/want-the-public-to-heed-global-warming-threats-cap-carbon-emissions-pay-dividends-to-everyone/


<>


Harry

Re: [Vo]:OT (Holiday Spirit): Christmas Flash Mob... or Group Mind occasionally waking up?

[Harry Veeder]

it would be interesting to track the position of one bird within the flock.

harry

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 8:47 AM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
 wrote:
> From Robin:
>
>>  ... In either case, it's obvious that each bird takes
>> it's queues from the others in one way or another, otherwise
>> there would be no flock at all.
>
> The flock appears to be the leader.
>
> Here's a great You Tube flick of a small flock of starlings defending
> themselves against an attack by a hawk. The behavior of the "flock" in
> making in what appears from our perspective to be making singular decisions
> becomes more apparent.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8eZJnbDHIg
>
> Of course each of the individual starling are reacting collectively by
> bunching up closer together to stymie the Hawk, but that's the whole point.
> Visually speaking, it appears to be the resulting collective behavior that
> is most startling and apparent. The collective behavior is greater than the
> sum of its parts.
>
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> www.zazzle.com/orionworks
>

[Vo]:Celani's cell did NOT vary with pressure!

[Harry Veeder]

Celani's cell did NOT vary with pressure!

 on 08 December 2012.


Dear world,

We have an admission and an apology to make, on the upside, some very
important developments have occurred as a result.

When we first started seeing a correlation of sorts between Pxs and
Pressure in the US cell, I asked for this to be investigated more
deeply and Malachi, Ryan and the team did fantastic further work and
analysis showing a potentially challenging finding. We are going to
investigate this further and have made extra calibrations in US and EU
cells to do exactly that moving forward.

What we did not say was that Celani had already been challenged at NI
week and ICCF17 and subsequently on this exact potential issue and had
carried out specific experiments to test for a measurable effect and
reported back to his critics his findings which did not, in his cell,
show the kind of relationship have seen. We had received this email a
little after the 7th October 2012, but in the pressures of everything
had simply forgotten about it, in hindsight, it was probably the
reason we pushed for the investigation. Having said that, we were not
given permission to share emails between MFMP and Celani openly, had
we been able to then the community watching our journey would have
surely reminded us.

-- continues --
http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/follow/171-celani-did-not-see-that-effect

Re: [Vo]:How bad is this news? Jed Rothwell

[Harry Veeder]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek

Scriptural reference

The phrase originates from the Sermon on the Mount in the New
Testament. In the Gospel of Matthew, an alternative for "an eye for an
eye" is given by Jesus:


38 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a
tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall
smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat,
let him have thy cloke also.
 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of
thee turn not thou away.

—Matthew 5:38–5:42 KJV

In the Sermon on the Plain[1] in the Gospel of Luke, as part of his
command to "love your enemies", Jesus says:


27 ¶ But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them
which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
 29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the
other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat
also.
 30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away
thy goods ask them not again.
 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

—Luke 6:27–31 KJV


Harry

Re: [Vo]:Sasquatch Sequenced

[Harry Veeder]

quite the tongue twister.
harry

[Vo]:They are not giving up

[Harry Veeder]

from quantumheat.org

Let the Data Flood Commence!

 on 03 December 2012.


I hope you are all ready for this, in the next couple of weeks we are
all going to have an immense amount of data to work through and we are
going to need your help looking for anomalies, patterns, features and
most importantly, science.

We know you have been asking for a new wire to be tested since it
became apparent that the first one might possibly have been fried. And
that will happen next week in the EU cell. We need this to be followed
closely.

Whilst that will be as close as we have come yet to a direct
replication of Celani's original work - we have heard your calls for
more, and you are going to get more, much more. We are going to get to
the bottom of this. See what you can spot in this little teaser video.


http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/follow/167-data-flood


Harry

[Vo]:NIST Experiments Challenge Fundamental Understanding of Electromagnetism

[Harry Veeder]

NIST Experiments Challenge Fundamental Understanding of Electromagnetism

>From NIST Tech Beat: November 27, 2012

A cornerstone of physics may require a rethink if findings at the
 National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) are confirmed.
 Recent experiments suggest* that the most rigorous predictions based
 on the fundamental theory of electromagnetism—one of the four
 fundamental forces in the universe, and harnessed in all electronic
 devices—may not accurately account for the behavior of atoms in
 exotic, highly charged states...

http://www.nist.gov/pml/div684/ebit-112712.cfm


Harry

Re: [Vo]:Water Bridge-Electro Gravity ?

[Harry Veeder]

has anyone ever weighed the system before and during the applied
voltage to look for anomlous changes in the weight/specific gravity of
the water?
Perhaps the water in the bridge weighs less than 'normal' water.
Harry

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 10:38 PM, Ron Kita  wrote:
> Greetings Vortex-L,
>
> A water bridge defying gravity:
> http://phys.org/news/2012-11-bridges-defy-gravity.html
>
> Ron Kita, Chiralex

Re: [Vo]:What did Curiosity find?

[Harry Veeder]

On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 11:18 AM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
 wrote:
> Since the Vort Collective is not above instigating acts of rampant
> speculation I’ll throw in my own percentages:
>
>
>
> · 70% chance - Curiosity detected undeniable amounts of methane in
> recent soil samples. The fact that the methane was determined to have been
> extracted directly from soil samples strongly suggests the possibility that
> organic life, as we understand it, is most likely still active within the
> protected confines of the soil.
>
> · 25% chance – Besides methane Curiosity has also detected
> additional molecular organic compounds that further increase the hypothesis
> that organic life in some simple/primitive form most likely still living
> within the soil of Mars.
>
> · 4% chance – In addition to the above two claims Curiosity has
> photographed evidence pointing to primitive microscopic fossils, possibly
> something similar to 600-Million-Year-Old microscopic amoeba-like organisms,
> as written up in the following science article: http://tinyurl.com/bbns6om
>
> · 0.9% chance – In addition to the above three claims Curiosity has
> photographed evidence pointing to more complex forms of life, particularly
> fossils of multi-cellular organisms.
>
> · 0.1% chance - http://tinyurl.com/6g5mv7t
>
>
>
> Time to add your two cents!
>
>

.01% chance

Curiosity has evolved into a higher a lifeform and as such in now
capable of farting.
Harry

Re: [Vo]:NASA: We think we found something . . .

[Harry Veeder]

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Alan Fletcher  wrote:
> I won't believe it until they send another Curiosity and run a blank test.
>

I won't accept the result unless this second rover is built and
operated by a group people with no affiliation to NASA.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Rossi Says .. (believe it or not)

[Harry Veeder]

and they are covered in barnacles
harry

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> Rossi has peers?
>

Re: [Vo]:430 kHz may be a LENR signature

[Harry Veeder]

radio beacons work in that range
http://www.dxinfocentre.com/ndb.htm

harry

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:
> There is an RF signal which appears to have a strong correlation to excess
> heating events in one kind of LENR. This is from a recent paper at ICCF17.
>
> The signal has a frequency of .43 MHz (430 kHz). This seems to be a
> signature - and a strong one. But it is too early to generalize.
>
> I have looked high and low to find some broader significance to this
> particular frequency, but nothing seems to turn up. This is "longwave" once
> used for Morse code and warning beacons, but not much used anymore. Who
> wants a 700 meter antenna?
>
> There is some relevance to "Rabi frequency" and to MRI but this seems
> incidental.
>
> A real connection to nuclear events seems extremely remote, given the
> wavelength - but it is there, and knowing why it is there could be
> important.
>
> Very strange...

[Vo]:Heins Effect Gaining Credibility

[Harry Veeder]

Heins Effect Gaining Credibility

Monday | March 19, 2012

http://evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?authorid=279


'Don't worry about people stealing an idea. If it's original, you will
have to ram it down their throats.'


-Howard Aiken, US computer scientist (1900 - 1973)

Back in July of 2010 I wrote a story called The Heins Effect. It was a
simple story about a self-taught inventor who asked a stupid question
and got a stupid answer. 30+ years ago Thane Heins was a young, naive
student at Ottawa University when he asked the professor teaching the
electric motors/generators class an obvious question about efficiency,
'If you could figure out a way to retard [withhold] the counter-EMF on
the advancing magnet by 10% would you not increase its overall
efficiency by 10%?'. 'Why even bother answering that question, because
if you did you would be violating several laws of physic, so you can't
do it' was the reply. And that was that.

It may not have been the actual word-for-word conversation that took
place, but Thane gave us this short synopsis when asked what sparked
the idea for his technology. He had an idea in his mind when he asked
that question (a flash of genius you might say) but buried it in his
collective and went on with life. I gleaned that little bit of history
from Thane last Monday while I was attending the RegenX demonstration
in Toronto that he was giving for his investors and technical staff.

Fast forward to post-911: Thane, like many other eco-engineers, wanted
to stop the oil wars so he started thinking about his ideas again. He
grabbed his ideas, some electric motors and headed down into the
basement where disaster awaited. I'll spare you the details of the
first time he plugged in his Regenerative Acceleration prototype, but
suffice to say it got away from him but in a good way. And from that
first disaster Thane knew he was on the right track so he has spent
the last 10+ years coming to grips with what he discovered and the
last few years trying to explain it. And I have spent the last 48
hours doing the same.

When I last spoke to Thane several years ago he had come to grips with
the mechanics of his technology, but not quite the explanation of it
(at least not one that most engineers could understand). He could
prove it in the lab to anyone that questioned it but without that
basic, rock solid and understandable explanation of how his electric
motor can draw less energy, and accelerate at the same time, most of
his naive collogues just scratched their heads and walked away. Well,
as a mechanical engineer I'm here to explain how it works and why it
works. And it does work; over a dozen of us were witness to that last
Monday (as well as a film crew--filming in 3D no less!)

Let's start with my feeble explanation of the mechanics of how a
permanent-magnet electric motor works--then I'll work my way up from
there. The coils provide rotational force to the rotor when the coils
are energized with current (amps). Energized in sequence they form a
rotating magnetic field (the Electro-Motive Force; EMF) that attracts
the magnets of the rotor and thus it rotates with force. An opposite
EMF is also formed as the magnet approaches the coils and--based on
the strength of that back-EMF -- it determines how fast you can rotate
the magnets through it before it stops accelerating.

The conventional laws of physics (and those governing electric
motors/generators) tells us that the faster we pass the magnet through
the EMF the more current is needed (or generated) to the point where
the magnets cannot go any faster due to back EMF [resistance to the
magnetic field]. If you quit supplying electrical current to the coils
the rotor eventually freewheels to a stop over time. If you short out
those coils (let's say to a battery) then the magnetism in the
rotating magnets supply current to those coils the motor, it becomes a
generator and slows down even faster because it's under load (via it's
self-induced EMF). This is called Regenerative Braking and it can be
used to convert the momentum of the vehicle to electricity and
[ultimately] to put some of that electricity back in the battery and
extend the range of the vehicle.

Still with me? I'm almost there... now picture if you will a flywheel
attached to the pigtail of this electric motor, and on this flywheel
are the same type of magnets. If you were to place some standard coils
next to these magnets you have a duplicate of what's inside. Put
Thanes proprietary Regenerative Acceleration coils next to those
magnets you have something exciting.

As Thane has come to understand he has figured out a way to store the
latent electrical energy in those rotating magnets as high voltage
between the coils (not as magnetic field around his coils) and not in
them either; a capacitor of types (if you care to imagine). Since it
is current flowing through the coils that causes the magnetic fields
around them (and not the volts) Thanes' coils offer no EMF
[resistance] as the 

[Vo]:Stars may not be so fine-tuned after all

[Harry Veeder]

Stars may not be so fine-tuned after all

A change in nature's fundamental constants could still allow star formation.

Would stars light up the sky in other universes? It's often claimed
that the fundamental constants of physics in our own Universe are
exquisitely tuned to permit stars – and therefore life - to exist. But
Fred Adams, an astrophysicist at the University of Michigan in Ann
Arbor, now suggests otherwise...

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080728/full/news.2008.985.html

Harry

Re: [Vo]:what if a diamond meteor hit the earth at the speed of light?

[Harry Veeder]

Experiment and find out!

*evil laugh*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7edeOEuXdMU


harry

On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 1:52 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:
> A nice interlude for those waiting to see if Andrea Rossi is confirmed:
>
> "If a meteor made out of diamond and 100 feet in diameter was traveling at
> the speed of light and hit the earth, what would happen to it?”
> —Aidan Smith, Age 8, via his father Jeff
>
> 3,000 kilometers per second = 0.01c: ... This would be pretty bad. The thing
> that makes this a little unpredictable is the fact that at speeds in the
> range of hundreds of kilometers per second, the air begins to undergo
> nuclear fusion 
>
>
> http://what-if.xkcd.com/20/
>
> Eric
>

Re: [Vo]:A $20 tablet computer from India

[Harry Veeder]

I hope this doesn't lead to a world where the poor must remain
attached their tablets and be on "call" 24 hours day to cater to the
whims of the upper classes so they simply can "earn" enough income to
subsist...


Harry



On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> Terry Blanton  wrote:
>
>>
>> That goes hand-in-hand with this amazing story:
>>
>> http://dvice.com/archives/2012/10/ethiopian-kids.php
>>
>> "What happens if you give a thousand Motorola Zoom tablet PCs to Ethiopian
>> kids who have never even seen a printed word? Within five months, they'll
>> start teaching themselves English while circumventing the security on your
>> OS to customize settings and activate disabled hardware. Whoa."
>
>
> QUOTING the article:
>
> "We left the boxes in the village. Closed. Taped shut. No instruction, no
> human being. I thought, the kids will play with the boxes! Within four
> minutes, one kid not only opened the box, but found the on/off switch. He'd
> never seen an on/off switch. He powered it up. Within five days, they were
> using 47 apps per child per day. Within two weeks, they were singing ABC
> songs [in English] in the village. And within five months, they had hacked
> Android. Some idiot in our organization or in the Media Lab had disabled the
> camera! And they figured out it had a camera, and they hacked Android."
>
> That is simply wonderful. That's the funniest and most heartwarming thing I
> have read in a long time. There is hope, after all.
>
> Chris Tinsley would have predicted this.
>
> - Jed
>

Re: [Vo]:MFMP : Hydrogen Loading Started

[Harry Veeder]

hmm there is no "like" button to click.

Harry

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 5:53 AM, Arnaud Kodeck  
> wrote:
>> Don’t forget, the IP is owned by Celani and his team. Nevertheless, MFMP is
>> doing a great job to replicate the Celani’s cell. It’s nice to do the
>> replication openly.
>
> Furthermore, if the replication is successful, they plan to build 10
> more Celani Cells and donate them to major universities.
>

Re: [Vo]:Bladeless Turbine

[Harry Veeder]

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Rob Dingemans  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> As far what I understand from it, it does work with a kind of piston in the
>> middle of the dish in the same kind of way how a cylinder in an engine moves
>> back and forth by air pressure.
>
> So it reciprocates?  Sounds like a hoax.
>

looks that way...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2IeCJiddQg


Harry

Re: [Vo]:The new normal

[Harry Veeder]

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:34 PM, Jones Beene  wrote
>
> Bottom line: it is looking like the new normal for "chemistry" is what was
> formerly 1>COP<2 and is not nuclear and not chemical - thus it can be called
> suprachemical.

...or infranuclear. ;-)

harry

Re: [Vo]:We should employ new methods of persuading the public

[Harry Veeder]

Those young whippersnappers have a facebook page too:
https://www.facebook.com/#!/MartinFleischmannMemorialProject


Harry

On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:
> http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/follow/109-fast-paced-progress
>
>
>
> There is nothing new on the site today other than calibration data, which
> looks good.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Jed Rothwell
>
>
>
> We can hope that the Celani device, replicated by 5 or 10 labs, will
> convince hundreds more researchers than we now have.
>
>

Re: [Vo]:We should employ new methods of persuading the public

[Harry Veeder]

On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> David Roberson  wrote:
>
>>
>> I am not sure that everyone can be convinced that the hypothetical CF
>> device is real as you suggest.
>
>
> It would not have to convince everyone in the first round. We only need to
> set off a chain reaction where each generation triggers more reactions
> instead of quenching. In other words --
>
> We can hope that the Celani device, replicated by 5 or 10 labs, will
> convince hundreds more researchers than we now have.
>
> Many of them will replicate, triggering thousands more.


the Faberge  effect...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCjmDI4AJlk&feature=related

Harry

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

[Harry Veeder]

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:
> Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned with
> "imposing" a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including me.
> I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your
> concerns are without merit.
>
> Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves.

Maybe you don't, but do you speak for all christians? Many christians,
if they had their
way, would use the  government to impose their beliefs on everyone,
before the messiah
has returned. That is what I mean by theocractic rule.

>Jesus
> Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any help
> from any of us.  Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his own
> power, not by the power of any Christian movement.  It will be a time of
> good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently
> plagues our society.+
>


Harry

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

[Harry Veeder]

Which version of the bible is this?:
"9.  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see
their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead
bodies to be put in graves."

The city in which this happens may simply be cosmopolitan so many of
the local observers have different ethnic, national and linguistic
backgrounds.



Harry

On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 6:21 AM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:

> **
>
> In Revelation 11, it talks of 2 witnesses for God and how they were killed
> by this Anti-Christ
>**3** And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall
> prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
> **4** These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing
> before the God of the earth. **5** And if any man will hurt them, fire
> proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man
> will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. **6** These have power
> to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have
> power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all
> plagues, as often as they will. **7** And when they shall have finished
> their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall
> make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. **8** And
> their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which
> spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
> **9** And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall
> see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their
> dead bodies to be put in graves. **10** And they that dwell upon the
> earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to
> another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
> **11** And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God
> entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon
> them which saw them.
>
>
> So, here's an event that occured in one city over a span of 3.5 days  that
> can be seen by "people and kindreds and tongues and nations".  This is a
> clear referrence to many different peoples speaking many different
> languages, quite obviously from many different countries.  So, let me ask
> you this?  How can all peoples of the Earth see this one event.  Did 6
> Billion people fly to this particular city in 3.5 days and see their dead
> bodies laying on the street.
>
> Clearly, this passage is an allusion to the existence of something like
> Live TV broadcast (CNN) or Internet YouTube.  This is only possible with TV
> and the Internet.
>
> This my friend, is the answer to your question.  You asked for a specific
> prediction, the Bible provides one.  And the Bible contains many much more
> technological predictions like this.  Did you know that the Bible also
> predicts the existence of Cold Fusion?  Read it and find out
> for yourself.   How a "goat herder" could have written this by himself
> stretches any credible imagination to the absurd breaking point.  LOL.
>
>
>  PS.  Did I pass your silly little test?
>

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

[Harry Veeder]

What is your mission as a christain?
What have you done for the world lately other than complain, condemn
and wait around for the messiah?

harry

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:
> Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned with
> "imposing" a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including me.
> I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your
> concerns are without merit.
>
> Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves.  Jesus
> Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any help
> from any of us.  Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his own
> power, not by the power of any Christian movement.  It will be a time of
> good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently
> plagues our society.+
>
>
> Jojo
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Harry Veeder" 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 3:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
>
>
>> I agree that secularism is in crisis, but this doesn't mean we must
>> return to a theocratic rule which is the danger implied by movements
>> like radical orthodoxy.
>> Secularism neeeds a more anthropological (mytho-poetic) foundation
>> rather than the narrow structures of a particular science or religion.
>>
>> Harry
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Harry Veeder  wrote:
>>>
>>> FYI
>>>
>>> Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/
>>>
>>> <>> five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond
>>> Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to
>>> social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself,
>>> once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a
>>> movement called "Radical Orthodoxy." IDEAS producer David Cayley
>>> profiles John Milbank.
>>> The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will
>>> have some religion - the only question is which religion.  British
>>> theologian John Milbank agrees.  A purely secular society, in
>>> Milbank's view, is simply not viable.  The only choice in our time, he
>>> says, is between religion and nihilism.  But religion for him means
>>> something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning
>>> - it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical
>>> Orthodoxy.  Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues
>>> have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with
>>> authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living  in a
>>> spiritually flattened world.>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Harry
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones
>>>> and
>>>> zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software.
>>>> The
>>>> ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.
>>>>
>>>> Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron
>>>> chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain
>>>> cells
>>>> and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never
>>>> understand
>>>> how Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs
>>>> to
>>>> understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an
>>>> understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and
>>>> techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself.
>>>>
>>>> Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system
>>>> from
>>>> the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding windows
>>>> require
>>>> understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code
>>>> level?  possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? Why
>>>> would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the
>>>> individual
>>>> ones and zeros of the neurons?
>>>>
>>>> You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human
>>>> soul.
>>>> This i

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

[Harry Veeder]

Myth, poetry and dreams tell us the meaning of life. The direction of
science and society is infleunced by them.
Harry

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
 wrote:
> Mytho-poetic?
> There is enough beauty and poetry in science as it is.
> We don't need made up stories.
> Giovanni
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Harry Veeder  wrote:
>>
>> I agree that secularism is in crisis, but this doesn't mean we must
>> return to a theocratic rule which is the danger implied by movements
>> like radical orthodoxy.
>> Secularism neeeds a more anthropological (mytho-poetic) foundation
>> rather than the narrow structures of a particular science or religion.
>>
>> Harry
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Harry Veeder  wrote:
>> > FYI
>> >
>> > Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six.
>> >
>> >
>> > http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/
>> >
>> > <> > five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond
>> > Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to
>> > social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself,
>> > once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a
>> > movement called "Radical Orthodoxy." IDEAS producer David Cayley
>> > profiles John Milbank.
>> > The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will
>> > have some religion - the only question is which religion.  British
>> > theologian John Milbank agrees.  A purely secular society, in
>> > Milbank's view, is simply not viable.  The only choice in our time, he
>> > says, is between religion and nihilism.  But religion for him means
>> > something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning
>> > - it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical
>> > Orthodoxy.  Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues
>> > have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with
>> > authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living  in a
>> > spiritually flattened world.>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Harry
>> >
>> > On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:
>> >> You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones
>> >> and
>> >> zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software.
>> >> The
>> >> ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.
>> >>
>> >> Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron
>> >> chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain
>> >> cells
>> >> and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never
>> >> understand
>> >> how Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs
>> >> to
>> >> understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an
>> >> understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and
>> >> techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself.
>> >>
>> >> Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system
>> >> from
>> >> the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding windows
>> >> require
>> >> understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code
>> >> level?  possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work?
>> >> Why
>> >> would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the
>> >> individual
>> >> ones and zeros of the neurons?
>> >>
>> >> You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human
>> >> soul.
>> >> This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid
>> >> acknowledging the
>> >> creator.  We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the
>> >> human
>> >> blueprint.  Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the
>> >> fallacies of
>> >> Darwinian Evolution.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Jojo
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> - Original Message -
>> >> From: Patrick Ellul
>> >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
>> >> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

[Harry Veeder]

I agree that secularism is in crisis, but this doesn't mean we must
return to a theocratic rule which is the danger implied by movements
like radical orthodoxy.
Secularism neeeds a more anthropological (mytho-poetic) foundation
rather than the narrow structures of a particular science or religion.

Harry


On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Harry Veeder  wrote:
> FYI
>
> Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six.
>
> http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/
>
> < five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond
> Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to
> social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself,
> once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a
> movement called "Radical Orthodoxy." IDEAS producer David Cayley
> profiles John Milbank.
> The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will
> have some religion - the only question is which religion.  British
> theologian John Milbank agrees.  A purely secular society, in
> Milbank's view, is simply not viable.  The only choice in our time, he
> says, is between religion and nihilism.  But religion for him means
> something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning
> - it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical
> Orthodoxy.  Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues
> have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with
> authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living  in a
> spiritually flattened world.>>
>
>
> Harry
>
> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:
>> You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones and
>> zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software.  The
>> ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.
>>
>> Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron
>> chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells
>> and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand
>> how Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs to
>> understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an
>> understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and
>> techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself.
>>
>> Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from
>> the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding windows require
>> understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code
>> level?  possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work?  Why
>> would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual
>> ones and zeros of the neurons?
>>
>> You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul.
>> This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the
>> creator.  We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human
>> blueprint.  Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of
>> Darwinian Evolution.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jojo
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Patrick Ellul
>> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
>> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
>>
>> If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows
>> installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and
>> understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones
>> and zeros on a memory device.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:
>>>
>>> Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul
>>> is doom to failure from the onset.
>>>
>>> Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the
>>> Pentuim chip.  Without understanding of the software, can you discern the
>>> operation of a PC from your understanding of the
>>> hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc?  At best, you understanding would be severely
>>> incomplete and faulty.  Software is the intangible thing that controls the
>>> behavior of the computer.  Software controls the hardware.
>>>
>>> On the same token, experts in
>>> Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never hope to
>>> completely understand the Human Soul.  It is that intangible entity - the
>>> so

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

[Harry Veeder]

FYI

Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six.

http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/

<>


Harry

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:
> You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones and
> zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software.  The
> ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.
>
> Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron
> chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells
> and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand
> how Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs to
> understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an
> understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and
> techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself.
>
> Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from
> the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding windows require
> understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code
> level?  possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work?  Why
> would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual
> ones and zeros of the neurons?
>
> You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul.
> This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the
> creator.  We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human
> blueprint.  Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of
> Darwinian Evolution.
>
>
>
> Jojo
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Patrick Ellul
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
>
> If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows
> installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and
> understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones
> and zeros on a memory device.
>
> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:
>>
>> Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul
>> is doom to failure from the onset.
>>
>> Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the
>> Pentuim chip.  Without understanding of the software, can you discern the
>> operation of a PC from your understanding of the
>> hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc?  At best, you understanding would be severely
>> incomplete and faulty.  Software is the intangible thing that controls the
>> behavior of the computer.  Software controls the hardware.
>>
>> On the same token, experts in
>> Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never hope to
>> completely understand the Human Soul.  It is that intangible entity - the
>> soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons,
>> etc.  The Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand
>> the behavior of man.  You need to study the soul, not the brain.  The brain
>> is simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like the CPU chip is the
>> mechanism that MS Windows controls.  The analogy is apt and accurate.
>>
>> Hence, one is wasting their time trying to study all the ideas of these
>> philosophers/psychologists/psychiatrists/etc.  They are at best severely
>> incomplete, at worst gravely misleading.
>>
>> If you want to understand the spiritual soul, go to the one who wrote the
>> software soul.  Study his book - the Bible to have a better understanding of
>> human behavior.
>>
>>
>> Jojo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Terry Blanton" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:15 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
>>
>>
>>
>>> I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of
>>> consciousness to date.  It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction,
>>> or Orch-OR.  The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir
>>> Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who
>>> specialized in anesthesia and cancer research.  Roger was seeking a
>>> model of the brain that did not require computation.  Hameroff wanted
>>> to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under.
>>> Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the
>>> Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the
>>> curvature.  Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the
>>> superposition.
>>>
>>> Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the
>>> structure.  He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can
>>> influence other neurons.  Together they see these electrons as a sea
>>> embedded in the geometry of spacetime.
>>>
>>> Needless to say, they have many critics.  :-)
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Patrick
>
> www.tRacePerfect.com
> The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not e

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

[Harry Veeder]

I like Penrose. IMO he is the most philosophically sophosticated
physicist in academia today. I wonder ...did Penrose ever say anthing
about CF?

Harry

On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
 wrote:
> I love Roger Penrose great thinker. Hameroff is too out there. I think
> Penrose has dissociated from Hameroff because he went too far.
> Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness. It has been debunked in
> many different ways.
> Giovanni
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 9:37 AM, ChemE Stewart  wrote:
>>
>> If Neurons can sense Neutrinos it makes sense to me we could "synch up"
>>
>> Stewart
>> darkmattersalot.com
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Terry Blanton 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of
>>> consciousness to date.  It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction,
>>> or Orch-OR.  The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir
>>> Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who
>>> specialized in anesthesia and cancer research.  Roger was seeking a
>>> model of the brain that did not require computation.  Hameroff wanted
>>> to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under.
>>>  Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the
>>> Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the
>>> curvature.  Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the
>>> superposition.
>>>
>>> Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the
>>> structure.  He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can
>>> influence other neurons.  Together they see these electrons as a sea
>>> embedded in the geometry of spacetime.
>>>
>>> Needless to say, they have many critics.  :-)
>>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Mischaracterizations of verdict against seismologists.

[Harry Veeder]

Did you read it?
In the process of asserting themselves as the legitimate authorities
on local seismological conditions, the seismologists appeared to
*minimize* the risk of a major earthquake. One seismologist in an
attempt to quell public alarm said the recent cluster of tremors
*reduced* the risk of a major earthquake which he knew was unfounded
claim.

I suspect the government seimsologist were either misinformed about
their duties or those duties were not clearly formulated by the
government . Unfortunately these scientists are the guinea-pigs for
better policy so the sentence should be light. Perhaps the italian
equivalent of the minister of the environment should take some of the
blame and resign.

Harry

On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> This whole story is an outrage. It is simply dreadful. Are they trying to
> outlaw science and academic freedom, or are they trying to outlaw mistakes?
>
> - Jed
>

[Vo]:Mischaracterizations of verdict against seismologists.

[Harry Veeder]

Mischaracterizations of the L'Aquila Lawsuit Verdict
http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.cz/2012/10/mischaracterizations-of-laquila-lawsuit.html

<< On March 31, 2009, in L’Aquila, six days before a deadly magnitude
6.3 earthquake killed 308 people, Bernardo De Bernardinis, then deputy
chief of Italy’s Civil Protection Department , and six scientists who
were members of a scientific advisory body to the Department (the
Major Risks Committee) participated in an official meeting and press
conference in response to public concerns about short-term earthquake
risks. The public concerns were the result of at least two factors:
One was the recent occurrence of a number of small earthquakes. A
second factor was the prediction of a pending large earthquake issued
by Gioacchino Giuliani, who was not a seismologist and worked as a
technician at Italy’s National Institute of Nuclear Physics.

The deputy chief and scientists held a short one-hour meeting and then
a press conference, during which they downplayed the possibility of an
earthquake. For instance, De Bernardinis went so far as to claim that
the recent tremors actually reduced earthquake risks: "[T]he
scientific community continues to confirm to me that in fact it is a
favourable situation, that is to say a continuous discharge of
energy." When asked directly by the media if the public should sit
back and enjoy a glass of wine rather than worry about earthquakes, De
Bernardinis acted as sommelier: "Absolutely, absolutely a
Montepulciano doc. This seems important." . . .

. . . in L’Aquila, the government and its scientists seemed to be
sending a different message to the public than the one that was
received. Media reports of the Major Risk Committee meeting and the
subsequent press conference seem to focus on countering the views
offered by Mr. Giuliani, whom they viewed as unscientific and had been
battling in preceding months. Thus, one interpretation of the Major
Risks Committee’s statements is that they were not specifically about
earthquakes at all, but instead were about which individuals the
public should view as legitimate and authoritative and which they
should not.

If officials were expressing a view about authority rather than a
careful assessment of actual earthquake risks, this would help to
explain their sloppy treatment of uncertainties.>>

<>

Harry

Re: [Vo]:A Halloween scare for real

[Harry Veeder]

It does not matter how much a economic system produces, those who have
enormous wealth  will finds ways to exploit those who have little
wealth, unless the over arching political system recognizes and
practically honours individual *dignity*. Exploitation can happen even
in the admist of abundance. Technological innovation without
comparable social and political "innovation" is only good for a small
minority.

Harry

On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Alain Sepeda  wrote:
> the opposite.
> without innovation, exploitation , whatever is the system, can be maintained
> on a stable minority of dynasties owning an economic rent.
> Non capitalist/liberal system do that naturally,whatever is the
> growth/innovation, since they block innovation, or restrict it's benefit to
> the stable dynasties.
> I see that in France.
>
> capitalism does not create equal results, but less stable, more random
> winners...
> it is quite egalitarian if you interpret it as statistic, even if it make a
> kind of symmetry breaking...
> strangely it redistribute the productivity gains widely...
>
> You can block innovation, and the result is a stable society... where like
> in medieval time you can know before birth your future diploma, job, wealth,
> wife...
> Rich are poorer and poor are even poorer... but everydoby find it normal.
> sociologically that have some advantage, and it seems appreciated in some
> traditional society... especially by the predicted winners.
>
>
>
> 2012/10/28 Harry Veeder 
>>
>> A capitalistic forms of economic exploitation and domination can be
>> reproduced endlessly thanks to 'innovation'.
>>
>> Harry
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Alain Sepeda 
>> wrote:
>> > Your vision is quite common but I think it is incomplete and typical of
>> > countries experiencing slow growth, slow productivity increase...
>> >
>> > Read "the next convergence"
>> > what you describe is the slow growth scenario.
>> > In that case, the wealth concentrate slowly in few hands, that are
>> > determined since the beginning, amplifiying inequality among dynasties
>> >
>> >
>> > In fast growth system, like what happens in poor countries catching back
>> > developped countries, or in developped countries in ebullience phase of
>> > developpement, with huge gain of productivities the sequence is the
>> > following :
>> >
>> > incumbent operators, rich dynasties, fight to maintain their old
>> > advantage,
>> > and follow old rules. They obtaine expected gain of their wealth, few%.
>> > as
>> > in a slow growing economy.
>> >
>> > unepredicatable agents, lucky, creative, stupid, crazy, try crazy
>> > solutions
>> > to be rich... very few succeed, get very rich, but they kill a dozen of
>> > incumbent dynasties or incumbent operator each. They gat a share of the
>> > productivity increase stollen to the incumbent operators, but distribute
>> > part of it to the masses. thos innovators become the incumbent,
>> > protecting
>> > their asset...
>> >
>> > the new or old incumbet get toasted by newcommers who redistribute their
>> > wealth, only keeping part for themselves...
>> >
>> > Capitalism wors quite fairly if advantage is temporary.
>> > It is temporary only if innovation happens , and kill old non-innovative
>> > incumbents.
>> >
>> > LENR will disintegrate some incumbent, make some billionaires, and
>> > distribute the wealth to the masses... until there is nothing more to
>> > innovate.
>> >
>> >
>> > 2012/10/28 Jeff Berkowitz 
>> >>
>> >> Yes.
>> >>
>> >> Leaving aside nightmare scenarios like nanobot infestations and
>> >> genetically modified diseases and the rest, sticking strictly to the
>> >> economic consequences of computer and mechanical technologies: there's
>> >> some
>> >> evidence we're seeing these effects right now, in the unemployment
>> >> numbers.
>> >> I came up with the image below to suggest the sort of
>> >> "self-perpetuating" or
>> >> "positive feedback" nature of what may be going on.
>> >>
>> >> The image uses a few concepts. One is "reach", by which I mean the
>> >> ability
>> >> of the lucky few winners using modern technology to supply the services
>> >> that
>> >> formerly required the work of many - "reach" i

Re: [Vo]:A Halloween scare for real

[Harry Veeder]

A capitalistic forms of economic exploitation and domination can be
reproduced endlessly thanks to 'innovation'.

Harry

On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Alain Sepeda  wrote:
> Your vision is quite common but I think it is incomplete and typical of
> countries experiencing slow growth, slow productivity increase...
>
> Read "the next convergence"
> what you describe is the slow growth scenario.
> In that case, the wealth concentrate slowly in few hands, that are
> determined since the beginning, amplifiying inequality among dynasties
>
>
> In fast growth system, like what happens in poor countries catching back
> developped countries, or in developped countries in ebullience phase of
> developpement, with huge gain of productivities the sequence is the
> following :
>
> incumbent operators, rich dynasties, fight to maintain their old advantage,
> and follow old rules. They obtaine expected gain of their wealth, few%. as
> in a slow growing economy.
>
> unepredicatable agents, lucky, creative, stupid, crazy, try crazy solutions
> to be rich... very few succeed, get very rich, but they kill a dozen of
> incumbent dynasties or incumbent operator each. They gat a share of the
> productivity increase stollen to the incumbent operators, but distribute
> part of it to the masses. thos innovators become the incumbent, protecting
> their asset...
>
> the new or old incumbet get toasted by newcommers who redistribute their
> wealth, only keeping part for themselves...
>
> Capitalism wors quite fairly if advantage is temporary.
> It is temporary only if innovation happens , and kill old non-innovative
> incumbents.
>
> LENR will disintegrate some incumbent, make some billionaires, and
> distribute the wealth to the masses... until there is nothing more to
> innovate.
>
>
> 2012/10/28 Jeff Berkowitz 
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Leaving aside nightmare scenarios like nanobot infestations and
>> genetically modified diseases and the rest, sticking strictly to the
>> economic consequences of computer and mechanical technologies: there's some
>> evidence we're seeing these effects right now, in the unemployment numbers.
>> I came up with the image below to suggest the sort of "self-perpetuating" or
>> "positive feedback" nature of what may be going on.
>>
>> The image uses a few concepts. One is "reach", by which I mean the ability
>> of the lucky few winners using modern technology to supply the services that
>> formerly required the work of many - "reach" is the consequence of the idea
>> of "scalability" discussed in Taleb's book "The Black Swan". Reach causes
>> concentration of wealth as the lucky few (e.g. Google) replace the services
>> previously provided by (e.g.) many local newspapers. The image also relies
>> on my belief that concentration of wealth in fewer hands tends to reduce
>> overall economic activity, as explained in the blog entry I posted here
>> previously. Accepting these ideas, we get the nasty positive feedback cycle
>> shown in the image.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Jones Beene  wrote:
>>>
>>> The Atlantic sets the stage for the 'scary season' (the election, not
>>> Halloween) with a piece on machine intelligence, echoing Bill Joy's
>>> classic
>>> article
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/10/the-consequences-of-ma
>>> chine-intelligence/264066/
>>>
>>> No Joy here: "Why the Future Doesn't Need Us
>>>  "
>>>
>>> http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html
>>>
>>> And now that the Governator is back on the streets, and the real
>>> Terminator
>>> is being perfected faster than suspected ...
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=FFGfq0pRczY&feature=etp-pd-nxx-62
>>>
>>> W Just in time for the LENR power module to make it fully
>>> autonomous
>>> (as long as it avoids metal stamping presses)...
>>>
>>> ... so all in all - I'd have to opine that future is pretty scary, even
>>> without hundreds of little gremlins and witches prowling the streets with
>>> bags full of candy...
>>>
>>> and the scare may not be that far away - no matter who gets elected.
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Aliens Favour Romney

[Harry Veeder]

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Daniel Rocha  wrote:
> Maybe they should research how Europe traded with Asia before the telegraph.

Some of the trading occurred indirectly through intermediaries.

Harry

> 2012/10/25 Jed Rothwell 
>>
>>
>>
>> "I've had it with those people at Alpha centauri! We sent them five
>> miniseries last year, and they sent us only one in return. We're not
>> broadcasting anything more in their direction until they pay up."
>>
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com
>

Re: [Vo]:New form or Radiation - the N-Ray saga

[Harry Veeder]

Jones,

Sorry it was the american physicist Wood who did the debunking but if
I remember correctly according to Malcolm Ashmore he went to france at
the request of englishmen.

Some browsers don't seem to handle pdf links well.
The link works in google chrome if you copy and paste the link into
the browser address bar.

If that doesn't work I uploaded a copy of _Theatre of the Blind_ by
Malcolm Ashmore to google docs:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BxxczzEYA5C5c3gxZmZpRlRRTTg

It is eye opening read. You learn the story behind the "facts" on
which articles like the one you cite are based.
Anyone who is concerned with integrity and honesty in science should read it.

here is a review of the paper:
http://www.albany.edu/~scifraud/data/sci_fraud_3038.html
<>
Harry

On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:
> Harry, I get only a black page when I click on the URL ?
>
> ... but my first thought is- letting an Englishman be the chief debunker of
> a Frenchman is a bit unfair, no?
>
> And ... Speaking of "Theater of the Blind", and also of "Ce qui circule
> vient autour"
> the following explains how "believing becomes seeing"
>
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:6g_JrUgUhoYJ:www.u.arizona.edu/~m
> ishler/klotz.pdf+%22N-ray%22+believing+is+seeing&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=AD
> GEEShtzIpw98i14pj5t4o4xNNrsAPcHMHfrpf-wzMzNdW9Vo_VCT8R5CliaES4DAJJu6sZwhwWWv
> jRrFO1m7fiMvBM6ZTMh16zKVg9FbVsvaNtwjcEmK6tvUQERLOZNtgPXk2Gbycl&sig=AHIEtbSlr
> moDACHnA6kKy0H2tFwWOAvJXw
>
>

Re: [Vo]:New form or Radiation - the N-Ray saga

[Harry Veeder]

sorry it was an american, not an englishman. I should reread my own posts. ;-)
Harry

On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Harry Veeder  wrote:
> I can't let this go. Last year I posted this revealing investigation
> of how N-rays were "debunked" in
> an unprofessional, psuedo-scientific manner.
>
> An englishman plays the role of chief debunker.
>
> You should read it jones.
> Harry
>
>
>
> The Theatre of the Blind: Starring a Promethean Prankster, a Phoney 
> Phenomenon,
> a Prism, a Pocket, and a Piece of Wood
>
> Social Studies of ScienceFebruary 1993 vol. 23 no. 1 67-106
>
> http://www.gesctm.unal.edu.co/CMS/Docentes/Adjuntos/099037209_20080313_054242_theatre%20of%20the%20blind.pdf
>
>
> Abstract
> One of the most notorious cases of full-blown scientific error is the
> `non-existent' form of radiation known as `N-rays', discovered in the spring 
> of
> 1903 by the French physicist Blondlot. After a short but full and interesting
> life, N-rays were killed off (so the story goes) in the autumn of 1904 by the
> American physicist Wood, who, after visiting Blondlot's laboratory in Nancy,
> published in Nature a damning report of what he found (or didn't find). In 
> this
> paper, I look at the way in which these events have been represented in
> subsequent commentaries (including a later one of Wood's), concentrating
> particularly on `the tale of the removal of the prism'. I also examine the
> source of the effectiveness of Wood's `rhetoric of undiscovery' which I claim
> lies in his construction and operation of a `theatre of the blind', in which
> only we who were not there can see the nothing that is there. Throughout the
> text, Wood's credibility as a reporter is questioned in the interest of
> providing a symmetrically sceptical account of Wood's scientific claims and
> status, as a counter to the standard story.
>
> Social Studies of ScienceFebruary 1993 vol. 23 no. 1 67-106
>
>

Re: [Vo]:New form or Radiation - the N-Ray saga

[Harry Veeder]

I can't let this go. Last year I posted this revealing investigation
of how N-rays were "debunked" in
an unprofessional, psuedo-scientific manner.

An englishman plays the role of chief debunker.

You should read it jones.
Harry



The Theatre of the Blind: Starring a Promethean Prankster, a Phoney Phenomenon,
a Prism, a Pocket, and a Piece of Wood

Social Studies of ScienceFebruary 1993 vol. 23 no. 1 67-106

http://www.gesctm.unal.edu.co/CMS/Docentes/Adjuntos/099037209_20080313_054242_theatre%20of%20the%20blind.pdf


Abstract
One of the most notorious cases of full-blown scientific error is the
`non-existent' form of radiation known as `N-rays', discovered in the spring of
1903 by the French physicist Blondlot. After a short but full and interesting
life, N-rays were killed off (so the story goes) in the autumn of 1904 by the
American physicist Wood, who, after visiting Blondlot's laboratory in Nancy,
published in Nature a damning report of what he found (or didn't find). In this
paper, I look at the way in which these events have been represented in
subsequent commentaries (including a later one of Wood's), concentrating
particularly on `the tale of the removal of the prism'. I also examine the
source of the effectiveness of Wood's `rhetoric of undiscovery' which I claim
lies in his construction and operation of a `theatre of the blind', in which
only we who were not there can see the nothing that is there. Throughout the
text, Wood's credibility as a reporter is questioned in the interest of
providing a symmetrically sceptical account of Wood's scientific claims and
status, as a counter to the standard story.

Social Studies of ScienceFebruary 1993 vol. 23 no. 1 67-106


On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:
> Curious note from history.
>
> About 8 years after the discovery of x-rays by a German, we had the
> discovery of so-called "n-rays" by a Frenchman. (n was for Nancy).
> Curiously, this radiation was said to be generated by polarizing x-rays.
> More on that later.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_ray
>
> N-rays were said to be a new form of radiation, discovered by a physicist
> named Blondlot in 1903, which were confirmed by other Frenchmen - but
> subsequently found to be illusory by Germans, and then retracted amid much
> embarrassment and national angst. Heck, the French could have saved face
> before it went too far, since polarization is a complex phenomenon - but
> instead things got out of hand with faked experiments.
>
> N-rays are often cited as a case of pathological science. Anyone who posits
> a new form of radiation should be aware of the pitfall of n-rays, since they
> are one of "Randi's" favs. Details here:
>
> http://www.rexresearch.com/blondlot/nrays.htm
>
> However ... cough, cough ... few skeptics doubt the Aharonov Bohm effect.
> The A-B effect is not precisely in the same category as polarized x-rays,
> but there is a bit of overlap since there is a photonic A-B effect.
>
> In fact, one strange thought that comes to mind in imagining what a "new
> form of photon radiation" could consist of, with energy capable of
> increasing the decay rate of an isotope like 40K, but not showing up in some
> types of detectors ... well ... that would generally fit with a polarized
> x-ray, causing a variation of  the Aharonov Bohm effect. It helps to
> understand the Barker patents on acceleration of nuclear decay.
>
> Maybe there are n-rays, after all, Nancy. What goes around, comes around ...
> as they say.
>
> ... well, Blondlot might say "Ce qui circule vient autour"
>
> Jones
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Hypothetically speaking ...

[Harry Veeder]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 5:56 AM, Alain Sepeda  wrote:
> I don't understand and why so many people are suprised that to gain energy
> yo need to feed a little (less).
>
> It is classic for usual energy that you give energy first to settle the good
> condition of energy production.
> It is the case for wood in a barbecue... you need first to pyrolyze it, then
> heat it until it can burn... it is only if you give good thermal insulation
> (in a barbecue) that after initial lighting, it can self sustain. and
> sometime, like with "flash in the pan" it can kill the container because of
> positive feedback. In a barbecue, like in a nuclear fission reactor, there
> are negative feedback that allow control

Indeed, even the action of replenishing coal requires some energy to
move the coal into place so that the barbecue remains hot. Even a
system which violates CoE  will tap the world outside the system for
its material continuance, and therefore will never be closed system of
energy relations.

Harry


> Celani reactor is as if you were making calorimetry in a piece of wood under
> a bunzen gaz burner...
>
> about electricity, it is simply an energy very easy to control, over time
> and space...
> moreover from Celani, Defkalion and Brillouin you can notice that electric
> excitation is more efficient than thermal...
>
> it is sure that it would be nice to have a looped reactor with turbine
> feeding the input, but it seems that on one side you have researchers and
> engineers who have not yet efficient enough reactors.
> and on another side you have people having working reactors, and not wanting
> to convince anybody else their partners, before it is publicly sold.
>
> For me the only one that can do that experiment is Celani and his
> replicators, assuming he continue to be "open" when he owns the greatest
> invention since wood fire and domesticated horse.
>
> As with all industrial of the beginning of CF (Toyota, Mitsubishi...) LENR
> is cursed by it's great potential value, that push successful results to be
> hidden... Making skeptics convinced that nothing work (which leads to
> similar results- provided you eliminate the numerous not so blatant
> experimental results).
>
> vicious circle.

Re: [Vo]:Designer of 3-D Printable Gun Has His 3-D Printer Seized

[Harry Veeder]

you didn't address my question about income being a fair measure of hard work.

The question does not imply that I think everyone should have the same
income no matter what they do.

harry

On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:
> So, let me get this straight.
>
> So, Bill Gates quits his schooling to start Microsoft.  Invested his savings
> into the venture.  Worked hard day and night to perfect his software.  Works
> long days to market his software.  Used his skill and charisma to win an
> account with IBM, gets lucky and makes a Billion.  But it did not stopped
> there.  He worked long hours at Microsoft.  Poured his heart out.  Exhausted
> every skill.  Worked very hard to build a credible software company,
> outcompeting every other competitor.  Now, he is harvesting the fruits of
> his labor, and some idiot comes along and says he is not working hard, and
> wants to redistribute his money hard earned thru charisma, luck and hard
> work.
>
> Yeah, that's right, Bill Gates DID NOT work hard for his money.  OK 
>
> That's why I despise socialists and communists.  They just want to steal the
> fruits of your labor.  It's a retrograde and thieving philosophy hatched out
> of the minds of lazy bums.
>
>
>
> Jojo
>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Harry Veeder" 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 12:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Designer of 3-D Printable Gun Has His 3-D Printer Seized
>
>
>> How does one measure "hard work"?
>>
>> How much harder does Bill Gates work in comparison to someone who
>> works two jobs at minimum wage?
>> Do you seriously he imagine he works 100 times harder if his income is
>> 100 times greater?
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you believe a man with backhoe works 100 times harder than a man with
>> shovel?
>>
>> Harry
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 10:42 PM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:
>>>
>>> This idea that poverty is the root cause of criminality is at best naive
>>> and
>>> at worst moronic.  This can only come from the liberal minds of
>>> socialistic/communistic people who think that "Income Redistribution" is
>>> the
>>> panacea for all societal ills.  My friend, stealing from people who work
>>> hard for their income and redistribute it to lazy bums will not cure
>>> sociatal ills.  You are smarter than to believe in that solution.
>>>
>>> Let's take a real life example.  The United States has more felons and
>>> criminals on a per capita basis than any other country in the world,
>>> including such 4th world countries like the Philippines who are poverty
>>> stricken to the core.  The United States is flushed in food and resources
>>> and conveniences, and yet manage to produce more criminals and felons
>>> than
>>> any other country.  Please, I would like to hear your explanation why the
>>> US
>>> has more criminals than the Philippines (on a per capita basis).
>>>
>>>
>>> Jojo
>>>
>>>
>>> PS. The root cause of crime is not poverty. but rather the inherent sin
>>> and
>>> rebellion in the hearts of a glutonous, rebellious and lazy society.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: Jouni Valkonen
>>> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 9:50 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Designer of 3-D Printable Gun Has His 3-D Printer
>>> Seized
>>>
>>>
>>> I would think that only way to combat this problem is to eliminate
>>> poverty
>>> from the society. About 95% of the criminality is due to unjust
>>> distribution
>>> of wealth. This is not that individual humans would resort into
>>> criminality
>>> if they fail to find job due to high unemployment rates, but because
>>> children are crown in the conditions where no children should be allowed
>>> to
>>> live.
>>>
>>> Best way to eliminate poverty is to set zero income level for each
>>> individuals into 1000-2000 dollars per month. This can be done quite
>>> easily
>>> by distributing income more justly. When there is no scarcity of the
>>> basic
>>> needs, there won't be breeding grounds for violent gangs and violent
>>> larger
>>> scale religions, because every child will get a proper and free
>>> education.
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Clarke describes a future with unlimited abundance

[Harry Veeder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUh_NSpiTsY

"so much of art...not all of it thank god, but a lot of it...has just
become a kind of cruddy game for the self agrandisement of the rich
and the ignorant...it is a kind of bad but useful business.

Robert Hughes, art critic, 2008.

Harry

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 4:08 AM, Alain Sepeda  wrote:
> A friend of mine is son of a gallery owners and painter.
> He explain me the market of art, and it is like a pathologic market.
>
> Art piece have no intrinsic value, and the job of a gallery owners is to
> never sell below a given guaranteed growing price.
> The reason why van gogh art is so expensive is not about his talent but
> because the heir was a very competent gallery owner.
> Of course there are fashion that pollute that security market, leading to
> bubbles and collapse, but gallery owners try to avoid that. Artist are
> appreciated if they produce stable style, quality and volume of art piece.
> Art is a very pure and lightweight virtual financial market, very
> interesting to escape taxes and for money laundry. It seems used for weapon
> traffic like diamonds, because of high money density and potential to grow
> without effort.
>
> of course working in IT finance, not in art, my opinion is biased.
>
> 2012/10/11 David Roberson 
>>
>> Quoting Clark:
>>
>> > Works of art would be cherished because they were
>> > beautiful, not because they were rare.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is my opinion that works of art are mainly valuable because the
>> purchasers believe that they will find someone else that will pay much more
>> for the art piece in the future.  In many cases, the signature on the art is
>> what counts.  This has always bothered me since the lack of intrinsic value
>> leads me to believe that one day someone will be holding an empty bag.
>>
>> Look at the insane protection being afforded precious gems if you want to
>> observe a ridiculous situation.I purchased a couple of synthetic rubies
>> for my wife that would be worth a king's ransom if natural.  The gem
>> industry goes to extreme length to make us believe that the natural ones are
>> special when we all know that they are of much lower quality than man made
>> ones.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Evidence V1 Has Left the Sol System

[Harry Veeder]

...but has Elvis has left the solar system?

;-)

harry

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 1:26 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> http://blog.chron.com/sciguy/2012/10/more-evidence-that-voyager-has-exited-the-solar-system/
>
> "To cross this boundary scientists say they would need to observe three 
> things:
>
> 1. An increase in high-energy cosmic rays originating from outside our
> solar system
>
> 2. A drop in charged particles emanating from the sun.
>
> 3. A change in the direction of the magnetic field."
>

[Vo]:"Prize Fight"

[Harry Veeder]

Prize Fight

(audio interview)

http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/episode/2012/10/06/october-6-2012/#5

This coming week, the Nobel Prizes for 2012 will be announced at the
Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden. Achievements will be
recognized in scientific fields, including medicine, physics and
chemistry.  A Nobel Prize is prestigious; it brings fame and glory, a
place in history, and, of course, money.  But the new book, "Prize
Fight: The Race and the Rivalry to be the First in Science",
chronicles a darker side to the famous awards.  The author, Dr. Morton
Meyers, a Distinguished Professor of Radiology and Medicine at the
State University of New York, describes the painful battles and even
bitterly contested lawsuits behind some of the greatest Nobel-winning
achievements, including research into tuberculosis, AIDS and MRI
technology.



Harry

Re: [Vo]:Designer of 3-D Printable Gun Has His 3-D Printer Seized

[Harry Veeder]

Dictatorial Communism allocated resources through the control of
prices and production.
Calls for the redistribution income in a free market system is nothing
like this.
Harry



On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 1:34 AM, Peter Gluck  wrote:
> The Internet also say so- see for example:
> https://www.technologyreview.com/emtech/12/
>
> received this morning, one suggestion from many that technological progress
> COULD contribute to
> the solving of Humanity's great problems.
> I am just working on a blog publication about
> effectiveness and efficiency- in two parts- 1- about the dark side of these
> concepts and 2- about efficiency of/in cold fusion/LENR research.
> Only commercial LENR could contribute to
> problem solving- something much better than combustion, fission, wind and
> solar energy -and
> the efforts/results ratio was very small till now.
> LENR per se is wicked problem.
>
> Peter
>
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 11:02 PM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson
>  wrote:
>>
>> > I have the experience of 45 years of Communism and now 22 years of
>> > nascent capitalism. The Kaltwasser Doctrine (see on my blog) applies to
>> > both but Capitalism is definitelly better.if you like work,education and
>> > have good inititiatives. I have learned that it is an immense difference
>> > between social theories and social practice so
>> > I am more than skepticalregarding redistribution.
>> > It can be imagined a complex, slow, developing system for diminishing
>> > the Gini coefficients of a state but the resistance will be fierce.
>> > The social problems are very wicked everywhere.
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> You have accumulated far more first-hand experience than I have
>> assembled within my 60 years of life. I am not in a position to
>> challenge what you had to endure either, nor do I want to. I'm glad
>> you survived in order to tell us all what you experienced.
>>
>> Perhaps I error on this point but I will assume that some Vorts may
>> have come to the conclusion that I must be some kind of a communist at
>> heart. Jojo certainly seems to have labeled me as such, along with a
>> few other derogatory terms. But no matter. FWIW, I continue perceive
>> myself as a capitalist at heart. In my view, those who work harder,
>> those who continue to innovate and bring improvements into the
>> everyday lives of others should be rewarded. I suspect capitalism,
>> flawed it may be, is probably better at compensating such individuals
>> than any other system. It's imperative that Incentives and rewards be
>> in place.
>>
>> However...
>>
>> It's my suspicion that with ensuing advancements of technology,
>> automation and robotics, traditional capitalism as it is currently
>> practiced will have to evolve... perhaps radically. I personally
>> suspect that capitalism will eventually have to incorporate a number
>> of socialistic concepts into its fundamental core, particularly things
>> like universal health care. Capitalism, in turn, will have to improve
>> on many of these socialistic "rights". I think most capitalistic
>> societies will eventually come around to a realization that what used
>> to be considered privileged "benefits" that only the rich and well off
>> could afford should be perceived as universal rights that are to be
>> bestowed on all of its citizens. Such benefits would include
>> unemployment compensation that, if warranted, simultaneously
>> incorporates "free" job re-training. Eventually, free advanced
>> eduction should become another inevitable universal right as well.
>> However, I think such benefits will only be possible through the
>> continued advances of technology, automation and robotics.
>>
>> Regards
>> Steven Vincent Johnson
>> www.OrionWorks.com
>> www.zazzle.com/orionworks
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Peter Gluck
> Cluj, Romania
> http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
>

Re: [Vo]:Designer of 3-D Printable Gun Has His 3-D Printer Seized

[Harry Veeder]

How does one measure "hard work"?

How much harder does Bill Gates work in comparison to someone who
works two jobs at minimum wage?
Do you seriously he imagine he works 100 times harder if his income is
100 times greater?



Do you believe a man with backhoe works 100 times harder than a man with shovel?

Harry

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 10:42 PM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:
> This idea that poverty is the root cause of criminality is at best naive and
> at worst moronic.  This can only come from the liberal minds of
> socialistic/communistic people who think that "Income Redistribution" is the
> panacea for all societal ills.  My friend, stealing from people who work
> hard for their income and redistribute it to lazy bums will not cure
> sociatal ills.  You are smarter than to believe in that solution.
>
> Let's take a real life example.  The United States has more felons and
> criminals on a per capita basis than any other country in the world,
> including such 4th world countries like the Philippines who are poverty
> stricken to the core.  The United States is flushed in food and resources
> and conveniences, and yet manage to produce more criminals and felons than
> any other country.  Please, I would like to hear your explanation why the US
> has more criminals than the Philippines (on a per capita basis).
>
>
> Jojo
>
>
> PS. The root cause of crime is not poverty. but rather the inherent sin and
> rebellion in the hearts of a glutonous, rebellious and lazy society.


>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Jouni Valkonen
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 9:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Designer of 3-D Printable Gun Has His 3-D Printer Seized
>
>
> I would think that only way to combat this problem is to eliminate poverty
> from the society. About 95% of the criminality is due to unjust distribution
> of wealth. This is not that individual humans would resort into criminality
> if they fail to find job due to high unemployment rates, but because
> children are crown in the conditions where no children should be allowed to
> live.
>
> Best way to eliminate poverty is to set zero income level for each
> individuals into 1000-2000 dollars per month. This can be done quite easily
> by distributing income more justly. When there is no scarcity of the basic
> needs, there won't be breeding grounds for violent gangs and violent larger
> scale religions, because every child will get a proper and free education.
>

Re: [Vo]:October is here

[Harry Veeder]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> Alan J Fletcher  wrote:
>
>>
>> e) There are multiple reports of NiH generating excess energy (So Rossi
>> must be faking something real?)
>
>
> That's the point I was trying to make when I noted there have been many
> other Ni-H reports.
>
> Rossi's claims seem similar to many others, especially Celani. Adjusting for
> the mass of material and the temperature they are in the same ball park. If
> Celani is right, it seems likely to me that Rossi is too.
>
> I doubt that Rossi is faking anything.

I thought you said he employs lies as part of his business stragetgy?
Frankly if he does lie in that respect, I don't trust anything he
_says_ about his devices.

harry


Harry

[Vo]:Martian Pyramid

[Harry Veeder]

Tiny pyramid discovered on Mars...

http://www.theweathernetwork.com/news/storm_watch_stories3&stormfile=Curiosity_discovers_martian_pyrmaid_21_09_2012

therefore Martians are tiny.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:example of a bad prognostistication

[Harry Veeder]

Please ignore the example of bad spelling in the subject line.
harry

On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Harry Veeder  wrote:
> http://www.astro.virginia.edu/class/oconnell/astr121/comte.html
>
> On the subject of stars, all investigations which are not ultimately
> reducible to simple visual observations are ... necessarily denied to
> us. While we can conceive of the possibility of determining their
> shapes, their sizes, and their motions, we shall never be able by any
> means to study their chemical composition or their mineralogical
> structure ... Our knowledge concerning their gaseous envelopes is
> necessarily limited to their existence, size ... and refractive power,
> we shall not at all be able to determine their chemical composition or
> even their density... I regard any notion concerning the true mean
> temperature of the various stars as forever denied to us.
>
> -- August Comte,1835
>
> (before the advent of spectroscopy)
>
> harry
>

[Vo]:example of a bad prognostistication

[Harry Veeder]

http://www.astro.virginia.edu/class/oconnell/astr121/comte.html

On the subject of stars, all investigations which are not ultimately
reducible to simple visual observations are ... necessarily denied to
us. While we can conceive of the possibility of determining their
shapes, their sizes, and their motions, we shall never be able by any
means to study their chemical composition or their mineralogical
structure ... Our knowledge concerning their gaseous envelopes is
necessarily limited to their existence, size ... and refractive power,
we shall not at all be able to determine their chemical composition or
even their density... I regard any notion concerning the true mean
temperature of the various stars as forever denied to us.

-- August Comte,1835

(before the advent of spectroscopy)

harry

Re: [Vo]:Overunity LED?

[Harry Veeder]

Ordinarily it takes energy to fall below ambient temperature, so it
must stealing energy from the electrical input that would have been
used for photon production. Unless it is violating the laws of
thermodynamics, it must become less efficient at producing photons as
it cools.

harry



On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 9:30 PM, Daniel Rocha  wrote:
> No, from the article:
> " However, while MIT's diode puts out more than twice as much energy in
> photons as it's fed in electrons, it doesn't violate the conservation of
> energy because it appears to draw in heat energy from its surroundings
> instead. When it gets more than 100 percent electrically-efficient, it
> begins to cool down, stealing energy from its environment to convert into
> more photons. "
>
> 2012/9/22 Craig Haynie 
>>
>> http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-03/09/230-percent-efficient-leds
>>
>> Craig
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com
>

[Vo]:"The Believers"

[Harry Veeder]

>

Harry

Re: [Vo]:free energy rap

[Harry Veeder]

...and that should be enough to expect from such video.
harry

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Harry Veeder  wrote:
> A video like this only raises awareness. It gets people thinking that is all.
> harry
>

Re: [Vo]:free energy rap

[Harry Veeder]

yw
harry

On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Ruby  wrote:
> Thanks for this Harry.  I put it up on our front page.
>
> Jammin great find!
>
>
> On 9/16/12 2:37 PM, Harry Veeder wrote:
>
> FREE ENERGY - LUMINARIES ft. Aishah [ELEVATE SOLUTION SERIES]
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2l5Z9T_x8A
>
> professionally produced rap video about free energy.
>
> nearly 80,000 hits
> Harry
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Ruby Carat
>
> r...@coldfusionnow.org
> United States 1-707-616-4894
> Skype ruby-carat
> www.coldfusionnow.org

Re: [Vo]:free energy rap

[Harry Veeder]

A video like this only raises awareness. It gets people thinking that is all.
harry

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 5:27 AM, Nigel Dyer  wrote:
> Half of my brain thinks that this is brilliant and just what is needed, and
> the other half thinks that it is not.
>
> From my personal experience the problem is not so much a conspiracy as
> people, such as scientists in universities who do know something about this
> stuff, having read about this in the past, decided from the evidence then
> that there was nothing in it, and there not being the evidence available now
> that would convince them otherwise.
>
> If they encounter the rap video I suspect it is as likely to change their
> mind as would an equivalent video presenting theological evidence for free
> energy.
>
> What is needed for them is evidence in a language, and from people that they
> can believe.
>
> Nigel
>
> On 16/09/2012 22:37, Harry Veeder wrote:
>>
>> FREE ENERGY - LUMINARIES ft. Aishah [ELEVATE SOLUTION SERIES]
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2l5Z9T_x8A
>>
>> professionally produced rap video about free energy.
>>
>> nearly 80,000 hits
>> Harry
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:free energy rap

[Harry Veeder]

The art of rehtoric

http://youtu.be/2q4_M3J-N3o

Ethos, Logos, Pathos

Harry

[Vo]:free energy rap

[Harry Veeder]

FREE ENERGY - LUMINARIES ft. Aishah [ELEVATE SOLUTION SERIES]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2l5Z9T_x8A

professionally produced rap video about free energy.

nearly 80,000 hits
Harry

Re: [Vo]:Sims

[Harry Veeder]

so why isn't the experiment and quantum mechanics just another part of
simulation?

harry

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> Interesting article:
>
> http://www.vice.com/read/whoa-dude-are-we-inside-a-computer-right-now-329-v19n9
>
> excerpt:
>
> "The other interesting thing is that the natural world behaves exactly
> the same way as the environment of Grand Theft Auto IV. In the game,
> you can explore Liberty City seamlessly in phenomenal detail. I made a
> calculation of how big that city is, and it turns out it’s a million
> times larger than my PlayStation 3. You see exactly what you need to
> see of Liberty City when you need to see it, abbreviating the entire
> game universe into the console. The universe behaves in the exact same
> way. In quantum mechanics, particles do not have a definite state
> unless they’re being observed. Many theorists have spent a lot of time
> trying to figure out how you explain this. One explanation is that
> we’re living within a simulation, seeing what we need to see when we
> need to see it."
>
> 
>
> Not that others have not considered this.  For example, in this review
> by John Walker of Susskind's "The Cosmic Landscape":
>
> http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/reading_list/indices/book_487.html
>
> 
>
> "Suppose this is the case: we're inside a simulation designed by a
> freckle-faced superkid for extra credit in her fifth grade science
> class. Is this something we could discover, or must it, like so many
> aspects of Theory 2, be forever hidden from our scientific
> investigation? Surprisingly, this variety of Theory 1 is quite
> amenable to experiment: neither revelation nor faith is required. What
> would we expect to see if we inhabited a simulation? Well, there would
> probably be a discrete time step and granularity in position fixed by
> the time and position resolution of the simulation—check, and check:
> the Planck time and distance appear to behave this way in our
> universe. There would probably be an absolute speed limit to constrain
> the extent we could directly explore and impose a locality constraint
> on propagating updates throughout the simulation—check: speed of
> light. There would be a limit on the extent of the universe we could
> observe—check: the Hubble radius is an absolute horizon we cannot
> penetrate, and the last scattering surface of the cosmic background
> radiation limits electromagnetic observation to a still smaller
> radius. There would be a limit on the accuracy of physical
> measurements due to the finite precision of the computation in the
> simulation—check: Heisenberg uncertainty principle—and, as in games,
> randomness would be used as a fudge when precision limits were
> hit—check: quantum mechanics."
>
> 
>
> I just hope it's not running a Windoz OS!
>
> T
>

Re: [Vo]:no evidence yet of safety certificate.

[Harry Veeder]

I think so, because "newbogusenergybricolage" sounds like an allusion
to Kirvit's newenergytimes.com.

harry

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:
> Is he saying that S. Krivit and “Gary Wright” are one and the same
> individual?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Alan J Fletcher
>
> .
>
>
>
> Andrea Rossi
> September 13th, 2012 at 1:45 AM
>
> Dear Giuseppe B.:
> Mr “Gary Wright” ( a false name that the coward snake – The Snake- is using
> for cowardice, has contacted SGS in an unproper way and has put an unproper
> question.
> So he published on his newbogusenergybricolage that we do not have a SGS
> certificate. This is the evidence, as if there was any necessity, that when
> the Snake ( or, better, the puppet Snake) writes, he usually publishes a
> falsity.
> Within hours you will find our Voluntary Safety Certificate.
> So you will see who is that says the truth and who is that has an agenda.
> Now we are very close to make a plant able to make power, and the puppeteers
> are trying all they can to discredit us: this is why I am caring not too
> much of the mumbojumbo growing up around and focus on the factory where we
> are making the real work. But from the violence of the attacs you can read
> the fear they have of the fact that we are making it. Not to mention the
> blackmails and the threats I am receiving on dayly scale. Just let me work
> and we’ll see.
> Warm Regards,
> A.R.

[Vo]:no evidence yet of safety certificate.

[Harry Veeder]

This blog called "Shut down Rossi" can't find any evidence that safety
certificate was issue by SGS as Rossi claims.

http://shutdownrossi.com/?page_id=1774

I suppose it is possible that the certificate was issued under a
different company name because SGS only confirms that a certificate
was not issued to any of the companies listed by the owner of "Shut
down Rossi"

Harry

Re: [Vo]:How can the Wikipedia process be so good if does not work?

[Harry Veeder]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> I wrote:
>
>> If the subject is controversial, you can [have] two articles, one by
>> supporters, and one by opponents. Why not?
>
>
> This is against the rules in Wikipedia. They insist that people reach a
> compromise taking into accounts all points of view. They want one and only
> one article per topic. (Actually, you are not supposed to have a "point of
> view.") I do not understand why they have this rule, or why they are so
> opposed to articles with distinct, separate points of view.
>
> It reminds of newspapers and TV news from the 1950s to 1990s, when they
> tried hard to be "neutral." Meaning "objective." Some people considered
> Walter Cronkite the epitome of reliable neutrality. He had an aura.
>
> I never thought the newspapers were neutral. Frankly, I prefer the approach
> newspapers had in the 19th century and again today, where you knew which
> side the editorial staff sympathized with. You could judge how objective
> they were by reading different accounts of the same story.
>
> Incidentally, you do have to give Wikipedia credit for knowing about and
> discussing their own weaknesses, such as their fetish for incorporating all
> points of view:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Randy_in_Boise
>
> The see the problems, but they don't do anything about them.
>
> - Jed
>

It reminds me of the persistent absuse that has occured within some
institutions. The abuse persists because it happens behind closed
doors, but in the case of wikipedia anonymity serves the function of
closed doors. It also reminds me cyber bullying. There are probably
(new) laws against cyber bullying that could be applied to wikipedia.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:How can the Wikipedia process be so good if does not work?

[Harry Veeder]

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> Harry Veeder  wrote:
>
>> Perhaps all the very controversial subjects from the current wikipedia
>> should be removed and placed in a distinct wikipedia dedicated to very
>> controversial subjects.
>
>
> I do not think that will happen. The Wikipedia management would not agree. I
> do not see any need for that. Here is how I imagine it might work:
>
> Someone else starts an on-line encyclopedia of science, based on traditional
> academic standards. Maybe the APS or a university could do this. Gradually,
> more readers turn to the academic website. Wikipedia articles on science are
> read less often. They are not updated as much. Some are revised with
> information from the academic site, and links to it.
>
> (I don't like the APS policies toward cold fusion but I suppose they can
> handle other subjects better than Wikipedia does.)
>
> Getting back to my analogy, the Model T was not replaced overnight. It was
> replaced gradually over many years as competition heated up. Sales at GM
> overtook Ford in 1927. That was the year Ford finally stopped producing the
> model T.
>
> The car was improved over the production run. It wasn't the exact same
> machine from 1908 to 1927. Wikipedia has also been improved. It might be
> improved again, with a better structure, to address the weaknesses that I
> and others have pointed out.
>
> - Jed
>

I think contributors to a controversial subject must self-identify as
either pro or con. That way readers can *immediately* see from the
user name on which side of the controversy each contributor stands.
The controversial subject should also be moderated but not in
anonymity.

harry

Re: [Vo]:How can the Wikipedia process be so good if does not work?

[Harry Veeder]

Perhaps all the very controversial subjects from the current wikipedia
should be removed and placed in a distinct wikipedia dedicated to very
controversial subjects.
harry



On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
>
> As I said, Wikipedia is good for some things but not others. If fails when
> the encyclopedia entry is controversial. The main problems are that it
> allows anonymous editing, and it has no respect for authorities in
> complicated, specialized subjects. I hope that it is reformed, or -- if it
> is not -- that some competing encyclopedia arises. Perhaps another
> encyclopedia can be established that specialized is scientific subjects such
> as cold fusion, and that does a better job using more traditional academic
> standards. We can leave the present Wikipedia to deal with popular culture,
> Japanese comic strips, and so on.
>
> - Jed
>

Re: [Vo]:How can the Wikipedia process be so good if does not work?

[Harry Veeder]

refer-a-pedia

wiki-ference

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> I agree Eric; but, I use wikipedia a little differently from most.  I
> use it as a reference source, rarely quoting wiki together because the
> truth is volatile there; but, the reference base at the bottom of the
> articles is a treasure trove.
>
> T
>

Re: [Vo]:Compressed spring - what happens to the stored energy at different temperatures?

[Harry Veeder]

For my own edification I continued to think about the issue of
potential energy gain and loss and I realise it depends on the
interatomic forces within the spring.

Cooling the compressed spring reduces the vibrations of the atoms in
the spring, and allows the interatomic forces to strengthen bonds
among atoms and therefore shift them into lower energy states. As a
result the atoms collectively act to make the spring more rigid so the
potential energy stored in the compressed spring increases.

Warming the compressed spring increases the vibrations of the atoms in
the spring, and works against the interatomic forces to weaken bonds
among atoms and therefore shift them into higher energy states. As a
result the atoms collectively act to make the spring less rigid so the
potential energy stored in the compressed spring decreases.

This doesn't mean I think the principle of conservation of energy is
universally true, but I try to understand what I don't accept.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Perpetual motion machine. New idea!

[Harry Veeder]

On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 12:48 AM, Jouni Valkonen  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> there was some discussion about this alleged perpetual motion machine. It
> was elegant, perhaps too elegant, and therefore it is probably a fake.
>
> Evolution of perpetual motion
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqG-TL0WnjE
>
> The idea is however simple and understandable and I refuse to believe that
> it is impossible, because I do not see how it could violate the quantum
> mechanics and the conservation of information.

what is the conservation of information?

> As we know, that it based on improved version of SMOT
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Magnetic_Overunity_Toy). SMOT itself is
> a failed perpetual motion machine, because no one has managed to return the
> iron ball back to the starting square. Therefore, no energy is created and
> friction will win.
>
> However I developed a magnetic switch that can be applied to weaken the
> starting point magnetic field by 20%. Therefore rotational energy should be
> enough to overcome the sticking point. And when sticking point is behind,
> magnets are again switched on by heating and new revolution is started with
> full force.
>
> As we discussed earlier, it takes about 360 mJ energy to align dipoles and
> magnetize 1 cm³ neodymium magnet. On the other hand, when magnet is
> demagnetized 360 mJ heat is released. The alignment process itself is just
> normal information processing that does not consume energy more than is
> required to account entropy.
>
> We can demonstrate that demagnetization is exothermic reaction if we are
> heating magnet to curie temperature, because it will take 360 mJ less energy
> than heating similar non-magnetized body to curie point. Demagnetization
> does not take energy, but it releases energy.
>
> Therefore we can use cooling as rudimentary switch mechanism. Neodymium
> magnets loses about 20% of magnetism when magnet is cooled from -150°C to
> -250°C. With other alloys this kind of 'phase transition' could be more
> prominent that changes the crystal lattice structure so that dipoles get
> even more misaligned. And when magnet is heated back above transition
> temperature (-150°C with neodymium magnet), magnet is again magnetized as
> dipole structure realigns. Hence this alignment and misalignment cycle can
> be fully reversible.
>
> This way we could get also SMOT-derived perpetual motion machine working
> continuously, if we turn off the magnets when wheel is approaching the
> sticking point. Therefore, as magnetic field is temporarily weakened with
> flash-cooling, rotational energy of the wheel would be sufficient for
> overcoming the sticking point (and friction).
>
> This cooling and heating cycle does not bring external energy to the system,
> because permanent magnets do not store energy. Therefore this cooling and
> heating idea will not nullify the idea of perpetual motion machine, because
> we do not use that heat energy for doing the work as a heat engine. This is
> also where magnetism differs from nitinol spring based heat engine.


"Permanent magnets do not store energy" contradicts your earlier
statement that demagnetisation "releases energy".

> —Jouni
>
> For neodymium magnet behavior at cryogenic temperatures, see:
> http://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=temperature-and-neodymium-magnets

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Hot-Cat fails test, Swedish investors withdraw, Rossi input power measurements dodgy?

[Harry Veeder]

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

>
> Take Home Lesson: Do not dismiss or underestimate a fanatical creative
> genius who works 14 hours a day. Strange and disagreeable people such as
> Edison, Steve Jobs or Rossi may have "reality distortion fields" but they
> often accomplish things that everyone else thinks are impossible.

The greatest obstacle Rossi faces is himself.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Compressed spring - what happens to the stored energy at different temperatures?

[Harry Veeder]

ahh thanks, because the first page of a google search for SMA lists
spinal muscular atrophy and the initials of some organizations.

harry

On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:
> SMA = Shape memory alloy ...
>
> There are others which are not nickel titanium alloys
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_alloy
>
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: Harry Veeder
>
> I would still like to know what SMA... means.
>
>
> harry
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Compressed spring - what happens to the stored energy at different temperatures?

[Harry Veeder]

I would still like to know what SMA... means.


harry

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:
> Harry may be setting you up for SMA...

Re: [Vo]:Compressed spring - what happens to the stored energy at different temperatures?

[Harry Veeder]

On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 1:03 AM, Jouni Valkonen  wrote:
> On 8 September 2012 06:55, Harry Veeder  wrote:
>>
>> When that system is submerged in the cold bath, the
>> spring will become stiffer and this will translate into more pressure
>> on the ends of the box, and therefore more potential energy.
>
>
> I think that here you have just 'normal' heat engine. The heat energy/mass
> of the hot spring is transformed into the spring energy/mass of the cooler
> and stiffer spring. That is, heat energy is transformed into useful
> (potential) work.
>
> Jones's video demonstrated more clearly how this change in crystal lattice
> structure due to temperature change can be utilized to create useful work
> from heat. With nitinol springs this 'phase change' is more extreme than
> with regular springs.
>
> —Jouni

yup
the wolf is always right.

harry

[Vo]:Nitinol and the property of stiffness

[Harry Veeder]

Jouni equates the stiffening of the spring by the cold bath with the
shape changing behaviour of nitinol. However, I think the stiffness of
a wire is a property which is independent of the wire's shape.
Consider two short lengths of _straight_ wire. One is made from copper
and one is made from nitinol. The force required to bend each wire is
a measure of each wire's stiffness. Warming or cooling the cooper wire
will not cause the cooper wire to bend but it will alter its
stiffeness. It may also be possible to forge a straight piece of
nitinol wire such that the nitinol wire's stiffness can be changed by
warming or cooling without causing it to change shape.


Harry