Re: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
I frequently find JM's comments oblique challenging: mind-tweaking, in fact. One thing about Mills: the music is never just an end in itself, but always a vehicle for another voice (to quote Derrida), a step to enchantment which holds opens endless further possibilities. Lawrence Kramer picks up on this ceaseless calling in a 1995 book called 'Classical Music Postmodern Knowledge' (also check out his new one, 'Musical Meaning'): For me music has gradually become the labyrinth of another voice, threading those chambers of the ear that wind and unwind into every distance, that turn inside out to become the whorled spaces of the world, of other voices, another voice. That the voice remains untranslatable, that Mills constantly tries out names for the unnameable for this trace of the Other, gives his own words--like his musical designs--their strange, haunting qualities. Collectively, they burn on as the cinders of an obsessive search for the future origins of what Derrida calls an irreducible nonpresence, incessantly calling from another now. Mills constructs the sonic structures (or machines/constructures) for listening into this still redeemable time to come. Wes On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, M. Todd Smith wrote: Great point! Doesn't dub predate hip hop though? It was low-tech on big soundsystems. The only factor it doesn't seem to inherit is the post-industrial attribute, but then again my knowledge of the roots of dub are few and far between. Though I'd love to read about it, any suggestions LKS? Cheers todd - Original Message - From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org; Bill Benzon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 9:42 AM Subject: RE: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brendan Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | -Original Message- | From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:17 PM | | Interesting point... I'd be tempted to say that techno was the first | specifically post-industrial tribal music. Other genres of | music, like | rock'n'roll or hip-hop, have always had tribal aspects to | them, but techno | is specifically post-industrial. | | This is interesting as wellhow are you defining post-indutrial? The dictionary definition is a period in the development of an economy or nation in which the relative importance of manufacturing lessens and that of services, information, and research grows - most Western nations are now in a post-industrial state and have been since the late 1970s. Although there have been new genres of music since then besides techno, techno's origins in Detroit - a city which became post-industrial a while before many others, what with the collapse in auto manufacturing there and the subsequent decay of the city - kind of mark it as a genre of music which ties very closely with post-industrialism. Hm. Although I don't think it is an accident that what we think of as techno comes out of Detroit for the reasons you mentioned, I actually think hip-hop might be the first post-industrial music...and that techno is the first to actually REPRESENT itself as post-industrial. Do you see the distinction? I was giving a lecture about mass society yesterday, and it occurred to me that we can trace the development of music in a similar fashion...rock and roll in particular. Rock and roll is a very industrial music in that it calls into being a certain sense of scale (large large concert halls, a loud loud sound which requires big big speakers, etc.). It also calls into being a certain type of industry to feed it. Ticketmaster to deal with the consumer aspect of concert technology for example. (apologies for obvious oversimplification.) But hiphop is the first music to violate those forms...and it was produced by some of the first casualties of the industrial era--colored (black american, black carribbean, latino, some white) men and women who were unable to get jobs in the plants during the seventies. It took a low-tech approach with high tech tools and created a sound that was a pastiche of bits and pieces of previous work. And in juxtaposition to the megaband, all that was needed was two turntables and a mic. Note how the scale becomes more human...in pointed juxtaposition to the industrial trend. Now the themes are definitely NOT post-industrial...but I think the music itself was as far as the social factors leading up to its creation. Of course, it's easy to say things like that about techno as it is an ambiguous and amorphous genre of music - and it's just as easy to disprove statements like this for exactly the same reason. My perception of techno is that it's a post-industrial genre - and, hey, if we think of 'industrial' as the musical genre
RE: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
In my simple universe I have a simple theory : there are 2 kinds of music. Techno ( and all related genres ) is music with no message, you can't understand it, it beholds no meaning than the sound itself. You have to listen to it with your belly, your abdomen. It's music that you have to completely endure, let it flow through your body. It envokes a trance, like the shaman repeating mantra's over and over. You have to feel it, feel the bass through your flesh. It's overwhelming, even threatening to those not willing to assimilate. The music exists in itself, as an assembly of tones, rhythm. Tribal music ( remember Burundi Black ? ) was the first techno imho. It aims for the legs. The music is the essence. The music IS the message. On the other side, there's music with a message. The music in this sense only exists as carrier for the message of the composer. Whether it be to evoke the 4 seasons or to spread a fluffy message about a candle in the wind, it's music you have to listen to, reason about, understand. The author wants to tell something. Hiphop belongs in here, pretty obvious. The music is ( only ) a medium. In my simple universe there is also Jazz, on the boundary of these 2 types of music : jazz tries to catch the raw power of the first type ( call it techno :) ) in rules and regulations and standards as they exist in the second type of music. I'm not quiet happy with this thought, I must give it some more thinking. So for now I'll conclude : in Jazz music is a medium and a message. That's why I don't consider Jean-Michel Jarre's Oxygene or Vangelis' music as precursors of techno, although the music sounds techno, it has not that raw power that techno has, it does not invoke trance, the music in these cases is more a carrier for an image the author had in mind. Kraftwerk goes more the other way, autobahn or die klang der stern has more of that power in it. It's pretty obvious in this context that nor inspiration or knowledge are involved ( in the strict sense, of course you have to know which knobs to turn ), it's about tuning in into that energy that is out there, the rhythms of life... And maybe too much knowledge, trying to understand it and defining it in rules and prejudices is an obstacle. My 2 cents... :-G http://www.appletree.be -Original Message- From: Brendan Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: woensdag 14 november 2001 18:49 To: '313@hyperreal.org'; 'Lester Kenyatta Spence'; Brendan Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line | -Original Message- | From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:43 PM | | Hm. Although I don't think it is an accident that what we think of as | techno comes out of Detroit for the reasons you mentioned, I | actually think hip-hop might be the first post-industrial music...and | that techno is the first to actually REPRESENT itself as | post-industrial. Do you see the distinction? Yes, I see what you mean, and it makes sense... | But hiphop is the first music to violate those forms...and it | was produced | by some of the first casualties of the industrial | era--colored (black | american, black carribbean, latino, some white) men and women who were | unable to get jobs in the plants during the seventies. It | took a low-tech | approach with high tech tools and created a sound that was a | pastiche of | bits and pieces of previous work. And in juxtaposition to | the megaband, | all that was needed was two turntables and a mic. Note how | the scale | becomes more human...in pointed juxtaposition to the industrial trend. And I guess that a characteristic of post-industrial music is an industrial level of *energy* suddenly being directed into sound rather than into mass production - something that hip-hop and techno share, in my opinion. You get the sense of there being an industrial infrastructure either lying dormant or in decay; while a lot of rock'n'roll always sounded like work, work, work music (and having worked in factories playing MOR radio stations all day, I've always associated rock music with the process of industrial production), both hip-hop and techno sound like, well, here's all this machinery and industrialised sectors of the city, but it's not doing anything, just slowly decaying, and here's what that decay sounds like Perhaps techno takes it a bit further into ...and here's what these machines *should* be doing! - hence actually representing itself as post-industrial music in a way that hip-hop doesn't? You are completely right about the actual scale though - with hip-hop and techno, the scale is much more human, which is interesting as both genres seem to have a wider scope than rock'n'roll. Rock'n'roll tends to talk about human situations, but the scale is vast; while hip-hop and techno talk about
Re: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
In my simple universe I have a simple theory : there are 2 kinds of music. Techno ( and all related genres ) is music with no message, you can't understand it, it beholds no meaning than the sound itself. You have to listen to it with your belly, your abdomen. It's music that you have to completely endure, let it flow through your body. It envokes a trance, like the shaman repeating mantra's over and over. You have to feel it, feel the bass through your flesh. It's overwhelming, even threatening to those not willing to assimilate. The music exists in itself, as an assembly of tones, rhythm. Tribal music ( remember Burundi Black ? ) was the first techno imho. It aims for the legs. The music is the essence. The music IS the message. I think that we are listening to different forms of Techno-a lot of people categorise Techno as the more tribal, banging stuff but Kenny Larkin War of the Worlds and most stuff by B12, Orlando Voorn and many, many others don't fit into this area- they provoke an entirely different response in me than endure when listening That's why I don't consider Jean-Michel Jarre's Oxygene or Vangelis' music as precursors of techno, although the music sounds techno, it has not that raw power that techno has, it does not invoke trance The only thing these recordings invoke in me a a felling of deep stupor. Jason Brunton - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
I have challenged my physics professors too many times to count. My god, I have such total sympathy with your professor!! Basically, if man ever does discover that something travels faster than 3 x 10^8 m/s, science falls apart, I found most of this post to be pretty silly but this point in particular struck a chord- are you really saying that if faster than light particles are proved beyond doubt to exist that a car whose aerodynamics were formulated using quantum uncertainty algorithms will stop being aerodynamic? Or that your microwave oven will cease to operate. Science didn't fall apart when it was discovered that light travels through space in a vacuum and not some ether as was previously believed (the same ether that held people onto the surface of the Earth before the discovery of Gravity), not did it fall apart when it was discovered that the Earth orbits the Earth and not vice versa (although a few people's world may have!), Science expands to incorporate new ideas as and when they come about, usually with a delay of a few decade, The interesting thing is the the writer complains of a feeling of brainwashing and having the Imagination programmed out of him- quantum theory was one of the most imaginative feats of the 20th century- thinking of things in two different way simultaneously- wave/particle duality is no mean feat. I believe that Techno can inspire original thoughts and I also believe that it can have a theoretical base however, too often this is simply a case of covering for a lack of any real originality or talent (Ritchie Hawtin in my opinion), also these things can be taken just a little bit too far (I am just old enough to remember the horrors of Emerson Lake and Palmer and Genesis concept albums some of which were based on similar utopian society ideas as are being touted about today by techno producers who should know better). Sometimes I think that when it is our time to understand, we will. And until that point we should just keep our heads under the parapet?? Jason Brunton Iridite PS Has anyone heard any good RECORDS recently??? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
I have challenged my physics professors too many times to count. My god, I have such total sympathy with your professor!! Basically, if man ever does discover that something travels faster than 3 x 10^8 m/s, science falls apart, You are pretty funny, for a physics geek. =) Don't forget the per say that you cut off to make your points even minutely valid. Nice edit job. TJ www.wireframerecords.com www.outrecords.com PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
At 9:25 +0100 11/14/01, veto wrote: PS Has anyone heard any good RECORDS recently??? Actually, the new LTJ Bukem live album is pretty nice. He recorded it at a club I SHOULD have been at, but n nobody else was interested. I have NEVER heard him do a rewind except on this mix. (not that this is on topic) Finally the radio station I work for is getting better promos now that we have four constant RPM hosts. Unfortunately, somebody stole the new Herbie Hancock! :O -- Cafard, [EMAIL PROTECTED] qu'est-ce que tu penses? AIM:pr0j2501 Matt Kane's Brain http://mkb.n3.net ===jive turkey http://jive-turkey.n3.net=== - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
At 9:25 +0100 11/14/01, veto wrote: PS Has anyone heard any good RECORDS recently??? This may have already been discussed, but the K. Hand History of Detroit on Tresor has actually grown on me. When I first brought it home last month, I threw a track off of this double lp and it threw my mix off (sure, blame it on the record=) because the beat was a little wacky for me. But, yesterday I played the record in it's entirety and found it to be a pretty nice work. TJ www.wireframerecords.com www.outrecords.com PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com --- End of forwarded message --- TJ www.wireframerecords.com www.outrecords.com PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
T.J.Johnson wrote: This may have already been discussed, but the K. Hand History of Detroit on Tresor has actually grown on me. When I first brought it home last month, I threw a track off of this double lp and it threw my mix off (sure, blame it on the record=) because the beat was a little wacky for me. But, yesterday I played the record in it's entirety and found it to be a pretty nice work. TJ Someone wanted to give that record to me, thank God i listened to it and used the 'well i have to travell back and i don't want to carry anymore records' excuse. I found it one of the worst records on Tresor for a verry long time! Some lame mixing and most of the tracks are so weak, there is nothing going on. The whole thing just sounded a bit to much as a effort to cach in on the succes of the DEMF. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- DISCLAIMER De gemeente Almelo aanvaardt voor haar medewerkers geen enkele aansprakelijkheid voor eventueel onjuist, onrechtmatig of ontoelaatbaar geacht gebruik van e-mail (inclusief bijlagen). Dit e-mail bericht is door de gemeente Almelo gecontroleerd op de aanwezigheid van eventuele virussen. Wij kunnen echter geen garantie afgeven dat al onze e-mail berichten volledig virus vrij zijn. Het is daarom verstandig uw binnenkomende e-mail berichten zelf op de mogelijke aanwezigheid van virussen te controleren. -- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
At 9:25 +0100 11/14/01, veto wrote: PS Has anyone heard any good RECORDS recently??? the other people place lp on warp... it's rumoured to be from an artist from the underground resistance posse like everyone else i have *no* clue *who* it might be (beware of irony) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
Sometimes I think that when it is our time to understand, we will. And until that point we should just keep our heads under the parapet?? Yeah maybe. Or you could go on believing everything your physics professor has to say. The truth is that man will never understand even a minute fraction of life and the way things work. You base your statement on man's burning curiosity, which is a totally valid point. I, myself, fall into this category. I am just saying from personal experience, that when you assign all the naturally occuring events a number, it just get's boring and leaves less room for the imagination to kick in. BTW particle and wave duality is just another small example of science's flaws. They categorize everything and then WHAM! Something like that comes along and throws a monkey wrech into the equation. Then they try to find out why and fix it. I guess it is something to do to pass the time, but to egg people on by paying them money to fill their heads with it? Not cool. I liked it better when the scientists (Plato, Socrates, etc.)just taught whoever would listen. Uh, I don't have a physics lecturer, sorry Jason Brunton - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
Uh, I don't have a physics lecturer, sorry Buy yourself Scott Adams' The Dilbert Future, read chapter 14 and amaze your peers with your vast knowledge of physics, prooving that gravity is only an optical illusion :-) :-G http://www.appletree.be - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
You are pretty funny, for a physics geek. =) Don't forget the per say that you cut off to make your points even minutely valid. Nice edit job. Excellent, so if I add back in those two words (didn't really notice them to be honest) you accept the validity and truthfulness of my little rant- that was easier than I thought Jason Brunton - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
To return to the music site of things : techno has a intriguing ambiguity : it consists of electronic sounds, generated by machines and always reminds me of our modern society with its industrial sounds, never ending beats( like society has now become a 24/24 nonstop machine, not like before, when everybody rested on a Sunday ), energizing drive, and yet it's music that can only be savoured when listening with your belly in stead of your head, like most tribal music. Could we describe techno as the first attempt by people living in western ( industrialised ) countries to tribal music ? Or would that be Jazz ? :-G http://www.appletree.be - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
Yeah I totally see what you're saying. To me, techno music almost mimics the assembly line, but with much more variation... On Wed, 14 November 2001, Gery Smismans wrote: To return to the music site of things : techno has a intriguing ambiguity : it consists of electronic sounds, generated by machines and always reminds me of our modern society with its industrial sounds, never ending beats( like society has now become a 24/24 nonstop machine, not like before, when everybody rested on a Sunday ), energizing drive, and yet it's music that can only be savoured when listening with your belly in stead of your head, like most tribal music. Could we describe techno as the first attempt by people living in western ( industrialised ) countries to tribal music ? Or would that be Jazz ? :-G http://www.appletree.be - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TJ www.wireframerecords.com www.outrecords.com PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brendan Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | -Original Message- | From: Gery Smismans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:29 PM | | Could we describe techno as the first attempt by people living in | western ( industrialised ) countries to tribal music ? Or would that | be Jazz ? Interesting point... I'd be tempted to say that techno was the first specifically post-industrial tribal music. Other genres of music, like rock'n'roll or hip-hop, have always had tribal aspects to them, but techno is specifically post-industrial. This is interesting as wellhow are you defining post-indutrial? peace lks - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
| -Original Message- | From: Gery Smismans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:29 PM | | Could we describe techno as the first attempt by people living in | western ( industrialised ) countries to tribal music ? Or would that | be Jazz ? Interesting point... I'd be tempted to say that techno was the first specifically post-industrial tribal music. Other genres of music, like rock'n'roll or hip-hop, have always had tribal aspects to them, but techno is specifically post-industrial. Brendan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
| -Original Message- | From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:17 PM | | Interesting point... I'd be tempted to say that techno was the first | specifically post-industrial tribal music. Other genres of | music, like | rock'n'roll or hip-hop, have always had tribal aspects to | them, but techno | is specifically post-industrial. | | This is interesting as wellhow are you defining post-indutrial? The dictionary definition is a period in the development of an economy or nation in which the relative importance of manufacturing lessens and that of services, information, and research grows - most Western nations are now in a post-industrial state and have been since the late 1970s. Although there have been new genres of music since then besides techno, techno's origins in Detroit - a city which became post-industrial a while before many others, what with the collapse in auto manufacturing there and the subsequent decay of the city - kind of mark it as a genre of music which ties very closely with post-industrialism. Of course, it's easy to say things like that about techno as it is an ambiguous and amorphous genre of music - and it's just as easy to disprove statements like this for exactly the same reason. My perception of techno is that it's a post-industrial genre - and, hey, if we think of 'industrial' as the musical genre rather than the phase of economic development, that makes sense too! Brendan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brendan Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | -Original Message- | From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:17 PM | | Interesting point... I'd be tempted to say that techno was the first | specifically post-industrial tribal music. Other genres of | music, like | rock'n'roll or hip-hop, have always had tribal aspects to | them, but techno | is specifically post-industrial. | | This is interesting as wellhow are you defining post-indutrial? The dictionary definition is a period in the development of an economy or nation in which the relative importance of manufacturing lessens and that of services, information, and research grows - most Western nations are now in a post-industrial state and have been since the late 1970s. Although there have been new genres of music since then besides techno, techno's origins in Detroit - a city which became post-industrial a while before many others, what with the collapse in auto manufacturing there and the subsequent decay of the city - kind of mark it as a genre of music which ties very closely with post-industrialism. Hm. Although I don't think it is an accident that what we think of as techno comes out of Detroit for the reasons you mentioned, I actually think hip-hop might be the first post-industrial music...and that techno is the first to actually REPRESENT itself as post-industrial. Do you see the distinction? I was giving a lecture about mass society yesterday, and it occurred to me that we can trace the development of music in a similar fashion...rock and roll in particular. Rock and roll is a very industrial music in that it calls into being a certain sense of scale (large large concert halls, a loud loud sound which requires big big speakers, etc.). It also calls into being a certain type of industry to feed it. Ticketmaster to deal with the consumer aspect of concert technology for example. (apologies for obvious oversimplification.) But hiphop is the first music to violate those forms...and it was produced by some of the first casualties of the industrial era--colored (black american, black carribbean, latino, some white) men and women who were unable to get jobs in the plants during the seventies. It took a low-tech approach with high tech tools and created a sound that was a pastiche of bits and pieces of previous work. And in juxtaposition to the megaband, all that was needed was two turntables and a mic. Note how the scale becomes more human...in pointed juxtaposition to the industrial trend. Now the themes are definitely NOT post-industrial...but I think the music itself was as far as the social factors leading up to its creation. Of course, it's easy to say things like that about techno as it is an ambiguous and amorphous genre of music - and it's just as easy to disprove statements like this for exactly the same reason. My perception of techno is that it's a post-industrial genre - and, hey, if we think of 'industrial' as the musical genre rather than the phase of economic development, that makes sense too! Perhaps even more sense. peace lks (i forwarded this to a friend of mine who recently wrote a book called BEETHOVEN'S ANVIL which deals with music and culture broadly considered.) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
| -Original Message- | From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:43 PM | | Hm. Although I don't think it is an accident that what we think of as | techno comes out of Detroit for the reasons you mentioned, | I actually think hip-hop might be the first post-industrial music...and | that techno is the first to actually REPRESENT itself as post-industrial. | Do you see the distinction? Yes, I see what you mean, and it makes sense... | But hiphop is the first music to violate those forms...and it | was produced | by some of the first casualties of the industrial | era--colored (black | american, black carribbean, latino, some white) men and women who were | unable to get jobs in the plants during the seventies. It | took a low-tech | approach with high tech tools and created a sound that was a | pastiche of | bits and pieces of previous work. And in juxtaposition to | the megaband, | all that was needed was two turntables and a mic. Note how | the scale | becomes more human...in pointed juxtaposition to the industrial trend. And I guess that a characteristic of post-industrial music is an industrial level of *energy* suddenly being directed into sound rather than into mass production - something that hip-hop and techno share, in my opinion. You get the sense of there being an industrial infrastructure either lying dormant or in decay; while a lot of rock'n'roll always sounded like work, work, work music (and having worked in factories playing MOR radio stations all day, I've always associated rock music with the process of industrial production), both hip-hop and techno sound like, well, here's all this machinery and industrialised sectors of the city, but it's not doing anything, just slowly decaying, and here's what that decay sounds like Perhaps techno takes it a bit further into ...and here's what these machines *should* be doing! - hence actually representing itself as post-industrial music in a way that hip-hop doesn't? You are completely right about the actual scale though - with hip-hop and techno, the scale is much more human, which is interesting as both genres seem to have a wider scope than rock'n'roll. Rock'n'roll tends to talk about human situations, but the scale is vast; while hip-hop and techno talk about wider or more abstract things while paradoxically working on a much more human scale in terms of how the music is made, performed and distributed. | Now the themes are definitely NOT post-industrial...but I | think the music | itself was as far as the social factors leading up to its creation. Although it's possible to maybe point to some early hip-hop tracks that actually were distinctly post-industrial - The Message, Ray-gun-omics? But you're right, the themes generally aren't post-industrial. Techno's avoidance of explicit themes is possibly one of the most post-industrial aspects of the music, in a way - what do you think? | (i forwarded this to a friend of mine who recently wrote a book called | BEETHOVEN'S ANVIL which deals with music and culture broadly | considered.) Has this book been published? I'm very interested in that sort of thing and would make an effort to pick it up if I could find it anywhere... Brendan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
Great point! Doesn't dub predate hip hop though? It was low-tech on big soundsystems. The only factor it doesn't seem to inherit is the post-industrial attribute, but then again my knowledge of the roots of dub are few and far between. Though I'd love to read about it, any suggestions LKS? Cheers todd - Original Message - From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org; Bill Benzon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 9:42 AM Subject: RE: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Brendan Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | -Original Message- | From: Lester Kenyatta Spence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:17 PM | | Interesting point... I'd be tempted to say that techno was the first | specifically post-industrial tribal music. Other genres of | music, like | rock'n'roll or hip-hop, have always had tribal aspects to | them, but techno | is specifically post-industrial. | | This is interesting as wellhow are you defining post-indutrial? The dictionary definition is a period in the development of an economy or nation in which the relative importance of manufacturing lessens and that of services, information, and research grows - most Western nations are now in a post-industrial state and have been since the late 1970s. Although there have been new genres of music since then besides techno, techno's origins in Detroit - a city which became post-industrial a while before many others, what with the collapse in auto manufacturing there and the subsequent decay of the city - kind of mark it as a genre of music which ties very closely with post-industrialism. Hm. Although I don't think it is an accident that what we think of as techno comes out of Detroit for the reasons you mentioned, I actually think hip-hop might be the first post-industrial music...and that techno is the first to actually REPRESENT itself as post-industrial. Do you see the distinction? I was giving a lecture about mass society yesterday, and it occurred to me that we can trace the development of music in a similar fashion...rock and roll in particular. Rock and roll is a very industrial music in that it calls into being a certain sense of scale (large large concert halls, a loud loud sound which requires big big speakers, etc.). It also calls into being a certain type of industry to feed it. Ticketmaster to deal with the consumer aspect of concert technology for example. (apologies for obvious oversimplification.) But hiphop is the first music to violate those forms...and it was produced by some of the first casualties of the industrial era--colored (black american, black carribbean, latino, some white) men and women who were unable to get jobs in the plants during the seventies. It took a low-tech approach with high tech tools and created a sound that was a pastiche of bits and pieces of previous work. And in juxtaposition to the megaband, all that was needed was two turntables and a mic. Note how the scale becomes more human...in pointed juxtaposition to the industrial trend. Now the themes are definitely NOT post-industrial...but I think the music itself was as far as the social factors leading up to its creation. Of course, it's easy to say things like that about techno as it is an ambiguous and amorphous genre of music - and it's just as easy to disprove statements like this for exactly the same reason. My perception of techno is that it's a post-industrial genre - and, hey, if we think of 'industrial' as the musical genre rather than the phase of economic development, that makes sense too! Perhaps even more sense. peace lks (i forwarded this to a friend of mine who recently wrote a book called BEETHOVEN'S ANVIL which deals with music and culture broadly considered.) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] Jeff Mills interview on-line
Great Interview! It is really good that such an optimistic person can become a very positive influence on society. I can relate with Jeff on a few ideas too. For example, I have challenged my physics professors too many times to count. The problem with physics is that alot of the theorums and concepts are based on spacial limits. One example is Eienstein's theory of relativity, E=MC^2. This concept relies on C, the speed of light, as a constant. This theory also depends on nothing ever travelling faster than the speed of light. It almost seems immature to me to rely on that as being the limit in such a enexplainably, magnificantly large universe with so many unknowns. Sometimes I wonder why I even keep going to class when it seems like they only put concepts like this, which destroy our imagination, into our heads to give us some sense of understanding. Sometimes I think that when it is our time to understand, we will. Until then, it seems utterly rediculous to even attempt to understand things like this. I know that what I typed above sounds realy negative, when I started out talking about Jeff's optimism. I guess I just hate losing my imagination. It all boils down to imagination being much more important (to me) than knowledge. Knowledge gets you money in this world. Imagination gets you... Well, I don't know what it gets you, but it definately makes life a bit more enjoyable. I know I enjoyed life alot more when I was a kid, with hardly any schooling, and just the next piece of pleasureful candy, the next friend I would make, the next time my Mom kissed me goodnight and told me she loved me, or the next toy I could play with to look forward to. Man that was the good life! Basically, if man ever does discover that something travels faster than 3 x 10^8 m/s, science falls apart, per say. But the imagination is just as limitless as before. If you think about it, as time approaches infinity, knowledge approaches the imagination. Unfortunately, according to math, asemtotes are never met... TJ www.wireframerecords.com www.outrecords.com PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
