Re: [AFMUG] can we use reassigned IP space?

[Ken Hohhof]

I am not an expert, but I’m pretty sure the answer is no.

 

Here’s a block that ARIN still thinks is reallocated to me from Level3 (was 
Genuity), but that hasn’t been mine for something like 15 years.  I think the 
SWIP database just never got updated.

https://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-209-100-100-0-1

 

It would be like if your ex-girlfriend never took her car keys back after the 
break up, can you go and drive her car?  Probably no.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 8:14 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] can we use reassigned IP space?

 

we have 4 /24s a /27 and a /27 that have been reassigned to us forever and are 
still listed with ARIN, lookups still come back to us, one /24 was reassigned 
to us before i started working here and we have left that provider.

 

Am I able to announce these prefixes? one of the /24 is still a resource under 
our ASN

 

They dont belong to us, it was just prior upstream reassignment. Its crazy with 
"depletion" that there is over a thousand IPs just abandoned in our closet

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[AFMUG] can we use reassigned IP space?

[Steve Jones]

we have 4 /24s a /27 and a /27 that have been reassigned to us forever and
are still listed with ARIN, lookups still come back to us, one /24 was
reassigned to us before i started working here and we have left that
provider.

Am I able to announce these prefixes? one of the /24 is still a resource
under our ASN

They dont belong to us, it was just prior upstream reassignment. Its
crazy with "depletion" that there is over a thousand IPs just abandoned in
our closet
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Re: [AFMUG] Iperf Help

[Adam Moffett]

ping -i .2 -s 1400 -f -c 300 x.x.x.x


On 11/21/2019 7:31 PM, Matt wrote:

I need to test for latency and jitter between two linux boxes I have
terminal access too.  The iperf examples I have found seem to just
care about bandwidth.

I tried this:

server> iperf -s -u -p 8042

client> iperf -c x.x.x.x -u -p 8042 -b 1m -t 30 -i 1 -f m

How do I get it to display latency, jitter, packet loss and etc?



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Re: [AFMUG] 48 Volt Battery Revert

[Ken Hohhof]

I wouldn’t think the Mean Well power supply would be compatible with the remote 
link on the BCM.

https://www.tracopower.com/products/tsp-bcm.pdf

 

I think the TSP-BCMU360 can be fed from any brand of power supply, but it’s a 
different animal probably best for smallish batteries.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Sterling Jacobson
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 5:56 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 48 Volt Battery Revert

 

I use the TSP-BCM48(A).

 

https://www.trcelectronics.com/View/TRACO-Power/TSP-BCM48.shtml

 

Around $170

 

Takes a 48v input, so I use the Mean Well 48v 10A PSU for about $100 to feed it.

 

And a string of four 12v 52AH batteries.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Jesse DuPont
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 4:02 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> 
>; Matt mailto:matt.mailingli...@gmail.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 48 Volt Battery Revert

 

This one is for 48V. It's not Meanwell and it's expensive, but it's 
functionally the same as the DR-UPS40, but for 48V. I imagine Meanwell OEMs 
this for RLH.

https://www.fiberopticlink.com/product/48vdc-ups-battery-charge-controller-module/

Jesse DuPont

Network Architect
email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net  
Celerity Networks LLC

Celerity Broadband LLC
Like us! facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc



Like us! facebook.com/celeritybroadband
  

 

On 11/21/19 10:37 AM, Matt wrote:

We use Meanwell DIN mount stuff for battery revert.  For 24 volt systems we use.
 
DRP-240-24 - power supply
DR-UPS40 - battery revert
 
I want to move to 48 volt battery banks now instead of up converting 24 to 48.
 
So what is a version of DR-UPS40 that is DIN mount and supports 48 volt?
 

 

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[AFMUG] Iperf Help

[Matt]

I need to test for latency and jitter between two linux boxes I have
terminal access too.  The iperf examples I have found seem to just
care about bandwidth.

I tried this:

server> iperf -s -u -p 8042

client> iperf -c x.x.x.x -u -p 8042 -b 1m -t 30 -i 1 -f m

How do I get it to display latency, jitter, packet loss and etc?

-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] 48 Volt Battery Revert

[Sterling Jacobson]

I use the TSP-BCM48(A).

https://www.trcelectronics.com/View/TRACO-Power/TSP-BCM48.shtml

Around $170

Takes a 48v input, so I use the Mean Well 48v 10A PSU for about $100 to feed it.

And a string of four 12v 52AH batteries.


From: AF  On Behalf Of Jesse DuPont
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 4:02 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group ; Matt 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 48 Volt Battery Revert

This one is for 48V. It's not Meanwell and it's expensive, but it's 
functionally the same as the DR-UPS40, but for 48V. I imagine Meanwell OEMs 
this for RLH.

https://www.fiberopticlink.com/product/48vdc-ups-battery-charge-controller-module/

Jesse DuPont

Network Architect
email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net
Celerity Networks LLC

Celerity Broadband LLC
Like us! facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc
[cid:image001.png@01D5A08C.86816430]

Like us! facebook.com/celeritybroadband
[X]
On 11/21/19 10:37 AM, Matt wrote:

We use Meanwell DIN mount stuff for battery revert.  For 24 volt systems we use.



DRP-240-24 - power supply

DR-UPS40 - battery revert



I want to move to 48 volt battery banks now instead of up converting 24 to 48.



So what is a version of DR-UPS40 that is DIN mount and supports 48 volt?



-- 
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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] 48 Volt Battery Revert

[Jesse DuPont]

  
  
This one is for 48V. It's not Meanwell and it's expensive, but it's
functionally the same as the DR-UPS40, but for 48V. I imagine
Meanwell OEMs this for RLH.

https://www.fiberopticlink.com/product/48vdc-ups-battery-charge-controller-module/


  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jesse DuPont
  Network Architect
  email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net
  Celerity Networks LLC
  Celerity Broadband LLC
Like us!
  facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc
  
  Like us!
  facebook.com/celeritybroadband
  


On 11/21/19 10:37 AM, Matt wrote:


  We use Meanwell DIN mount stuff for battery revert.  For 24 volt systems we use.

DRP-240-24 - power supply
DR-UPS40 - battery revert

I want to move to 48 volt battery banks now instead of up converting 24 to 48.

So what is a version of DR-UPS40 that is DIN mount and supports 48 volt?




  

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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Robert Andrews]

I thought Military aircraft radars could also use DFS frequencies?

On 11/21/2019 09:50 AM, Kurt Fankhauser wrote:
We are using DFS on PMP450 for customer access and AF5XHD for backhauls. 
It works surprisingly well. On both the PMP450 and AF5XHD's you can set 
an alternative freq and a secondary alternative for the radios to 
immediately jump to if they detect RADAR. Radios will try the first alt 
freq and if they get a hit on that will then go to the second freq. It 
should happen instantly without taking the link down. If you do not set 
the alt freqs the radios will shutdown for 30 minutes and then 
attempt to use that freq again. I have noticed that the wider the 
channels you use the more "susceptible" you are yo getting a radar 
event. Try running on 20mhz channels and you wont get as many hits if 
any. We have some AP's that have been running for 6 months+ without any 
radar hits. We are also not anywhere near any airports so that may be 
helping us as well.


On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 12:42 PM Matt Hoppes 
> wrote:


You do.

On 11/21/19 12:27 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
 > There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you
had flat
 > EIRP limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.
 >
 > On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:
 >> 6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world. It's
the up
 >> to 23 dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the
 >> usefulness of DFS for PTMP past a couple miles. The ~16 dBi gain
90°
 >> sectors 2-300' up in the air just can't hear those SMs over all the
 >> noise they are picking up.  What we need is the ability to run
 >> downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8.
 >>
 >>
 >> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
 >> >> wrote:
 >>
 >> Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate
channels that
 >> are just shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I
think
 >> the channel needs to be clear for a few minutes before you
can go
 >> back to it.
 >>
 >> Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't
think DFS
 >> events are that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS
 >> events are more likely if you lie to the software about antenna
 >> gain to cheat the EIRP limit.  False detects happen, but I don't
 >> think it's a daily event.  Disclaimer: I've mostly used it on
 >> Point to point with dishes.  I'm not sure if you'd pick up more
 >> anomolies on a sector antenna.
 >>
 >> The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get
 >> that 32 SNR for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts. 
Or when

 >> you've already got someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering
 >> the power ruins them.
 >>
 >> Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site
 >> where you have a bunch of customers within 1-2 miles.
 >> Unfortunately I don't have sites like that.
 >>
 >> -Adam
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
 >>>
 >>> We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if
 >>> we get false radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium
shop.
 >>> So I’m a bit confused about DFS on other vendor equipment like
 >>> Ubiquiti as well as home routers.
 >>>
 >>> Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the
 >>> Cambium gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.
 >>> But on other gear, I don’t see this.  When there’s a DFS hit,
 >>> does it jump to another random frequency?  Does it rescan the
 >>> current frequency until it tests clear and only then resume
 >>> transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I’m being
 >>> stupid?  Maybe in the case of routers they are exempt
because of
 >>> low EIRP?
 >>>
 >>> Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a
 >>> competitor using Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential
 >>> subscriber speed plans up to 100x100.  Clearly they must be
using
 >>> at least 40 MHz channels if not 80 MHz, or else their marketing
 >>> people have burning pants and long noses. And I don’t see how a
 >>> WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use wide
 >>> channels other than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using
 >>> 40 MHz but only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs.  So assuming
 >>> you are using 40 or 80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there’s a
 >>> DFS detect?  Does the whole 40 or 80 MHz have to find a new
 >>> home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and 

Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Chuck McCown]

That was the band of the radar I visited.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 21, 2019, at 12:17 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> 
> 
> That’s pretty cool.  The links to ULS are nice.
>  
> I had always wondered whose radar that was by Routes 47 and 64 your map tells 
> me it’s WLS-TV.  So if ULS says the frequency is 2900-2950, that means the 
> actual radar beam is in that range?  Not in 5 GHz at all?
>  
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:05 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions
>  
> This is nowhere near complete, but here is a map I've been building of radar 
> sites.
>  
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ayAnN9KSq09zKS8WCqaQ_QA3JrY=sharing
>  
> It has TDWR, NOAA, TV stations etc. The private radar stations (mostly TV 
> stations) are the incomplete part of the map because I have to look them up 
> in ULS. It is complete in our area.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> 
> The Brothers WISP
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:36:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions
> 
> Chicago has 2 TDWRs (for OHare and Midway) and both are in the 5600-5650 MHz 
> band.  I think a lot of WISP equipment actually locks out those frequencies, 
> and the only place a WISP would be desperate enough to use that 50 MHz 
> apparently is Puerto Rico, which is apparently the Wild West of spectrum.
>  
> http://www.wispa.org/Resources/Industry-Resources/TDWR-Resources/TDWR-Locations-and-Frequencies
>  
>  
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:16 PM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions
>  
> Those radars sweep the sky pretty slowly.  Like 60 rpm.  It would be 
> theoretically possible to be on their frequency and just blank TX when it is 
> looking your way.  You could extract timing sync from the radar sweep and 
> figure out when to blank.  Their gain is such that you would only have to 
> blank for perhaps 50 mS. 
>  
> If I had more ambition I would ask for an experimental license to play with 
> the idea. 
>  
> From: Ken Hohhof
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:11 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions
>  
> Only the APs, at least under FCC rules, I’m not sure about the rest of the 
> world.
>  
> That alone IMHO says DFS is a joke, or regulatory “experts” deluding 
> themselves.  If I have a sector pointed away from some government radar, it 
> won’t detect the radar, but the SMs are pointed back at the radar and are not 
> required to have a detection mechanism.  Probably a good point that it would 
> be too complicated for one SM to detect radar and then communicate with the 
> AP to request a channel change.  But you really need something like a SAS for 
> this spectrum sharing idea to work.
>  
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:04 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions
>  
> one thing i have always wondered is do the SM's actually look for RADAR or 
> only the AP's?
>  
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 12:55 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> Yes, that’s true, but a higher gain antenna at the SM end helps rcv but not 
> xmt.  And SMàAP is the direction you may actually need a better signal 
> because the AP likely has a sector antenna and is mounted higher so it sees 
> more interference.
>  
> It would not be unusual to have a 16 dBi antenna at the AP but a 25 dBi 
> antenna at the SM.  The antenna gain would help the rcv signal at the SM, but 
> it would probably have to lower its conducted power by 9 dB to stay within 
> the regulatory EIRP limit.
>  
> In contrast, in U-NII-3 the CPE end is treated as point-to-point and can use 
> antenna gain to exceed the AP limit of 36 dBm EIRP (subject to OOBE limits).
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:27 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions
>  
> There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat EIRP 
> limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.
> 
> On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:
> 6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world.  It's the up to 23 
> dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the usefulness of DFS for 
> PTMP past a couple miles.  The ~16 dBi gain 90° sectors 2-300' up in the air 
> just can't hear those SMs over all the noise they are picking up.  What we 
> need is the ability to run downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8.
>  
>  
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:
> Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are just 
> shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think the channel needs to 
> be clear for a few minutes before 

Re: [AFMUG] traffic often spikes up at 8pm

[Christopher Tyler]

Looks about the same here...

-- 
Christopher Tyler
Senior Network Engineer
MTCRE/MTCNA/MTCTCE/MTCWE

Total Highspeed Internet Solutions
1091 W. Kathryn Street
Nixa, MO 65714
(417) 851-1107 x. 9002
www.totalhighspeed.com

- Original Message -
> From: "Kurt Fankhauser" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:06:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] traffic often spikes up at 8pm

> This is typical 24-hour cycle for us
> 
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:49 AM Adam Moffett < [ mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com |
> dmmoff...@gmail.com ] > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Orconsidering the short time frame, maybe a popular device distributed a
> software update at that time. 8pm would be the worst time to do that, but 8pm
> in the midwest must be 3am somewhere in the world.
> On 11/21/2019 10:45 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at two 10gig pipes, the one with more load has a smooth curve. The 
> other
> has a little under a gig of traffic, but does have a pretty pronounced
> spike.in this case at 9pm rather than 8pm (which interestingly would be 
> the
> same real time as you since I'm EST and I believe you're central).
> 
> My guess is the one with more load has a larger "sample size" of users so it's
> more difficult for the normal curve to be altered by outliers.maybe 
> there's
> that a cluster of people like at 9 eastern / 8 central.
> 
> 
> Just a guess. I'm not going to burn any more time dwelling on it.
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/20/2019 10:18 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We still see a step up around 4pm when the kids get home from school. The dip 
> at
> 6pm seems to have gone away, I guess people stream video during dinner now.
> 
> 
> 
> But I’m puzzled by a spike we usually see at 8pm. Is this just a fluke? Or is
> there some 5 minute TV show people are all watching at exactly 8pm?
> 
> 
> 
> I’m used to a sustained period of high traffic from around 7pm to 10pm. But
> what’s the deal with 8pm? Must be kids turning in their homework?
> 
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> [ http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com |
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> 
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Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Ken Hohhof]

That’s pretty cool.  The links to ULS are nice.

 

I had always wondered whose radar that was by Routes 47 and 64 your map tells 
me it’s WLS-TV.  So if ULS says the frequency is 2900-2950, that means the 
actual radar beam is in that range?  Not in 5 GHz at all?

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:05 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

This is nowhere near complete, but here is a map I've been building of radar 
sites.

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ayAnN9KSq09zKS8WCqaQ_QA3JrY 
 
=sharing

 

It has TDWR, NOAA, TV stations etc. The private radar stations (mostly TV 
stations) are the incomplete part of the map because I have to look them up in 
ULS. It is complete in our area.



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
  
 
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   
  
 
  The Brothers WISP
   
 




  _  

From: "Ken Hohhof" mailto:af...@kwisp.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:36:28 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

Chicago has 2 TDWRs (for OHare and Midway) and both are in the 5600-5650 MHz 
band.  I think a lot of WISP equipment actually locks out those frequencies, 
and the only place a WISP would be desperate enough to use that 50 MHz 
apparently is Puerto Rico, which is apparently the Wild West of spectrum.

 

http://www.wispa.org/Resources/Industry-Resources/TDWR-Resources/TDWR-Locations-and-Frequencies

 

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of ch...@wbmfg.com  
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:16 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

Those radars sweep the sky pretty slowly.  Like 60 rpm.  It would be 
theoretically possible to be on their frequency and just blank TX when it is 
looking your way.  You could extract timing sync from the radar sweep and 
figure out when to blank.  Their gain is such that you would only have to blank 
for perhaps 50 mS.  

 

If I had more ambition I would ask for an experimental license to play with the 
idea.  

 

From: Ken Hohhof 

Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:11 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

Only the APs, at least under FCC rules, I’m not sure about the rest of the 
world.

 

That alone IMHO says DFS is a joke, or regulatory “experts” deluding 
themselves.  If I have a sector pointed away from some government radar, it 
won’t detect the radar, but the SMs are pointed back at the radar and are not 
required to have a detection mechanism.  Probably a good point that it would be 
too complicated for one SM to detect radar and then communicate with the AP to 
request a channel change.  But you really need something like a SAS for this 
spectrum sharing idea to work.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

one thing i have always wondered is do the SM's actually look for RADAR or only 
the AP's?

 

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 12:55 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

Yes, that’s true, but a higher gain antenna at the SM end helps rcv but not 
xmt.  And SM-->AP is the direction you may actually need a better signal 
because the AP likely has a sector antenna and is mounted higher so it sees 
more interference.

 

It would not be unusual to have a 16 dBi antenna at the AP but a 25 dBi antenna 
at the SM.  The antenna gain would help the rcv signal at the SM, but it would 
probably have to lower its conducted power by 9 dB to stay within the 
regulatory EIRP limit.

 

In contrast, in U-NII-3 the CPE end is treated as point-to-point and can use 
antenna gain to exceed the AP limit of 36 dBm EIRP (subject to OOBE limits).

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:27 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat EIRP 
limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.

On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:

6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the 

Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Mike Hammett]

This is nowhere near complete, but here is a map I've been building of radar 
sites. 


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ayAnN9KSq09zKS8WCqaQ_QA3JrY=sharing 


It has TDWR, NOAA, TV stations etc. The private radar stations (mostly TV 
stations) are the incomplete part of the map because I have to look them up in 
ULS. It is complete in our area. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Ken Hohhof"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:36:28 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions 



Chicago has 2 TDWRs (for OHare and Midway) and both are in the 5600-5650 MHz 
band. I think a lot of WISP equipment actually locks out those frequencies, and 
the only place a WISP would be desperate enough to use that 50 MHz apparently 
is Puerto Rico, which is apparently the Wild West of spectrum. 

http://www.wispa.org/Resources/Industry-Resources/TDWR-Resources/TDWR-Locations-and-Frequencies
 





From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com 
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:16 PM 
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions 




Those radars sweep the sky pretty slowly. Like 60 rpm. It would be 
theoretically possible to be on their frequency and just blank TX when it is 
looking your way. You could extract timing sync from the radar sweep and figure 
out when to blank. Their gain is such that you would only have to blank for 
perhaps 50 mS. 



If I had more ambition I would ask for an experimental license to play with the 
idea. 






From: Ken Hohhof 

Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:11 AM 

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions 



Only the APs, at least under FCC rules, I’m not sure about the rest of the 
world. 

That alone IMHO says DFS is a joke, or regulatory “experts” deluding 
themselves. If I have a sector pointed away from some government radar, it 
won’t detect the radar, but the SMs are pointed back at the radar and are not 
required to have a detection mechanism. Probably a good point that it would be 
too complicated for one SM to detect radar and then communicate with the AP to 
request a channel change. But you really need something like a SAS for this 
spectrum sharing idea to work. 


From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser 
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:04 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions 


one thing i have always wondered is do the SM's actually look for RADAR or only 
the AP's? 



On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 12:55 PM Ken Hohhof < af...@kwisp.com > wrote: 




Yes, that’s true, but a higher gain antenna at the SM end helps rcv but not 
xmt. And SM à AP is the direction you may actually need a better signal because 
the AP likely has a sector antenna and is mounted higher so it sees more 
interference. 

It would not be unusual to have a 16 dBi antenna at the AP but a 25 dBi antenna 
at the SM. The antenna gain would help the rcv signal at the SM, but it would 
probably have to lower its conducted power by 9 dB to stay within the 
regulatory EIRP limit. 

In contrast, in U-NII-3 the CPE end is treated as point-to-point and can use 
antenna gain to exceed the AP limit of 36 dBm EIRP (subject to OOBE limits). 



From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Adam Moffett 
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:27 AM 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions 

There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat EIRP 
limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP. 

On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote: 




6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world. It's the up to 23 
dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the usefulness of DFS for PTMP 
past a couple miles. The ~16 dBi gain 90° sectors 2-300' up in the air just 
can't hear those SMs over all the noise they are picking up. What we need is 
the ability to run downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8. 





On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 



Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are just 
shifted over 5mhz from where you were. And yeah I think the channel needs to be 
clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it. 
Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events are 
that big of a deal. My understanding is that DFS events are more likely if you 
lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP limit. False detects 
happen, but I don't think it's a daily event. Disclaimer: I've mostly used it 
on Point to point with dishes. I'm not sure if you'd pick up more anomolies on 
a sector antenna. 
The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit. When you're trying to get that 32 SNR for 
the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts. Or when you've already got 

Re: [AFMUG] MPLS

[Cassidy B. Larson]

I get RF from Cisco. 


> On Nov 21, 2019, at 7:54 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> 
> Are those pre-owned / refurb?
> 
> On 11/21/2019 12:57 AM, Cassidy B. Larson wrote:
>> I’m able to get 10 Cisco ASR920s for under 10k from Cisco.  Just depends on 
>> who your account team is, and how much business you do.  Just like 
>> Streakwave, Winncom, etc.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 20, 2019, at 8:10 PM, Sterling Jacobson >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Uh, yeah.
>>>  
>>> $10k doesn’t buy me enough functionality.
>>> Would need 10 of those.
>>>  
>>> From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On 
>>> Behalf Of Josh Baird
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 6:54 PM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >> >
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS
>>>  
>>> Why?  Price?
>>>  
>>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:53 PM Sterling Jacobson >> > wrote:
>>> No thanks.
>>>  
>>> From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On 
>>> Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 5:12 PM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >> >
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS
>>>  
>>> Time to grow up… Juniper ACX or Cisco ASR920
>>>  
>>> From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> on 
>>> behalf of Sterling Jacobson >> >
>>> Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >> >
>>> Date: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 4:10 PM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >> >
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS
>>>  
>>> Well put.
>>>  
>>> Capacity/speed is an issue with me, so I think I introduced some possible 
>>> bottlenecks above 4.5Gbps using MPLS/VPLS in my own network which is 
>>> Mikrotik.
>>> VPLS endpoints I don’t think were/are hardware offloaded, so required some 
>>> great CPU capacity at the edge and core for large transport.
>>> I also think I had MTU issues with so many layers of “layer2” stuff going 
>>> on inside and outside of MPLS tunnels, native interfaces, VPLS endpoints, 
>>> bridges and VRRP interfaces along with VLAN at some endpoints.
>>>  
>>> However, with the right equipment (not Mikrotik) MPLS is fully capable and 
>>> large networks use them to diversely traverse redundant paths back to a 
>>> central core.
>>>  
>>> My problem also was geo-diverse BGP cores to different providers as stated 
>>> below.
>>> I was running EVERYTHING on a Mikrotik 1072 CCR, lol!
>>> It still drives me crazy hunting down issues where I still have 
>>> MPLS/OSPF/BGP/VRRP/VLAN on one device across multiple interfaces, lol!
>>>  
>>> From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On 
>>> Behalf Of Dennis Burgess via AF
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 12:56 PM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >> >
>>> Cc: Dennis Burgess >> >
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS
>>>  
>>> You can, its up to you.
>>>  
>>> Is routing faster on MikroTik by using MPLS/VPLS? No
>>> Do you gain extra capacity by reducing the router load per packet by using 
>>> MPLS?  Yes, think looking at 4-bytes of data vs 40.  Is it 10 fold 
>>> increase, no but you get the point.
>>> What is the big deal about MPLS without VPLS?  Just that it does get you a 
>>> bit of extra capacity.  Bout it.
>>> Why does everyone want to run VPLS?  VPLS gets you the IP and subnet 
>>> savings.  You do need to design your core network correctly to handle this. 
>>>  If you have a single core router and all of your tunnels go to that, then 
>>> yes if it goes down yes your tunnels are down, but may of our customers 
>>> have to have redundancy, so multiple edges, connected to multiple cores, 
>>> connected to multiple VPLS termination boxes, connected to multiple PPPoE 
>>> servers.  Etc.   The core is VERY robust, but the general network is not.  
>>> This also does not work very well if your have multiple geographically 
>>> diverse BGP feeds, i.e. everything goes back to the datacenter and that’s 
>>> where it is, great, but otherwise, it gets to the point that it not worth 
>>> the effort.
>>> L2VPNs?  Weill there are a few customers that prefer them, but in all 
>>> honestly there is better, more secure, and faster protocols out there.  
>>> Keep in mind that L2VPNs are fine if all of the customers are on your 
>>> network, but they seldom are, so you will need a plan for those guys as 
>>> well.  My questions is why do you build your network to deliver something 
>>> that people don’t want, a layer 2 network connection.  If you are 
>>> delivering Pipes then sure, but you have to have the capacity and 
>>> availability to do so.  Most Wisps, not all, don’t have this figured out.  
>>> 99% of the time, they can make more money by providing a managed L3 
>>> solution than L2 anyways. 
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>>> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP 
>>> Certified 
>>> Author of "Learn RouterOS- 

Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Mike Hammett]

TDWR is the least significant user in the DFS space. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Adam Moffett"  
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 10:55:25 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions 


Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are just 
shifted over 5mhz from where you were. And yeah I think the channel needs to be 
clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it. 

Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events are 
that big of a deal. My understanding is that DFS events are more likely if you 
lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP limit. False detects 
happen, but I don't think it's a daily event. Disclaimer: I've mostly used it 
on Point to point with dishes. I'm not sure if you'd pick up more anomolies on 
a sector antenna. 

The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit. When you're trying to get that 32 SNR for 
the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts. Or when you've already got someone 
hooked up 10 miles away and lowering the power ruins them. 

Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site where you have a 
bunch of customers within 1-2 miles. Unfortunately I don't have sites like 
that. 
-Adam 




On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote: 




We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get false 
radar detects. Also we are mostly a Cambium shop. So I’m a bit confused about 
DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as home routers. 

Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection? On the Cambium gear, we 
have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies. But on other gear, I don’t see 
this. When there’s a DFS hit, does it jump to another random frequency? Does it 
rescan the current frequency until it tests clear and only then resume 
transmission? Is the answer right in front of me and I’m being stupid? Maybe in 
the case of routers they are exempt because of low EIRP? 

Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels? We have a competitor using 
Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential subscriber speed plans up to 100x100. 
Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if not 80 MHz, or else 
their marketing people have burning pants and long noses. And I don’t see how a 
WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use wide channels other 
than in DFS bands. We have some PTP links using 40 MHz but only 10 and 20 MHz 
channels on our APs. So assuming you are using 40 or 80 MHz in DFS, what 
happens when there’s a DFS detect? Does the whole 40 or 80 MHz have to find a 
new home? Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and substantially overlap the previous 
occupied spectrum? DFS bands come with enough spectrum to use wide channels, 
but is there enough to jump around when you take a DFS hit? 



-- 
AF mailing list 
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[chuck]

I have only been at one site.  It had a 60’ dish on the tower that was grinding 
around about 60 rpm inside a radome.  Made quite a noise.  Inside the 
transmitter shack it has the frequency listed.  Seemingly out to a decimal 
point or two.  I did not get the impression it was frequency agile.  I think 
the antenna had 60 dB gain.  The tx power was in the kW range.  

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:36 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

Chicago has 2 TDWRs (for OHare and Midway) and both are in the 5600-5650 MHz 
band.  I think a lot of WISP equipment actually locks out those frequencies, 
and the only place a WISP would be desperate enough to use that 50 MHz 
apparently is Puerto Rico, which is apparently the Wild West of spectrum.

 

http://www.wispa.org/Resources/Industry-Resources/TDWR-Resources/TDWR-Locations-and-Frequencies

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:16 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

Those radars sweep the sky pretty slowly.  Like 60 rpm.  It would be 
theoretically possible to be on their frequency and just blank TX when it is 
looking your way.  You could extract timing sync from the radar sweep and 
figure out when to blank.  Their gain is such that you would only have to blank 
for perhaps 50 mS.  

 

If I had more ambition I would ask for an experimental license to play with the 
idea.  

 

From: Ken Hohhof 

Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:11 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

Only the APs, at least under FCC rules, I’m not sure about the rest of the 
world.

 

That alone IMHO says DFS is a joke, or regulatory “experts” deluding 
themselves.  If I have a sector pointed away from some government radar, it 
won’t detect the radar, but the SMs are pointed back at the radar and are not 
required to have a detection mechanism.  Probably a good point that it would be 
too complicated for one SM to detect radar and then communicate with the AP to 
request a channel change.  But you really need something like a SAS for this 
spectrum sharing idea to work.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

one thing i have always wondered is do the SM's actually look for RADAR or only 
the AP's?

 

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 12:55 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

  Yes, that’s true, but a higher gain antenna at the SM end helps rcv but not 
xmt.  And SMàAP is the direction you may actually need a better signal because 
the AP likely has a sector antenna and is mounted higher so it sees more 
interference.

   

  It would not be unusual to have a 16 dBi antenna at the AP but a 25 dBi 
antenna at the SM.  The antenna gain would help the rcv signal at the SM, but 
it would probably have to lower its conducted power by 9 dB to stay within the 
regulatory EIRP limit.

   

  In contrast, in U-NII-3 the CPE end is treated as point-to-point and can use 
antenna gain to exceed the AP limit of 36 dBm EIRP (subject to OOBE limits).

   

  From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
  Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:27 AM
  To: af@af.afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

   

  There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat EIRP 
limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.

  On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:

6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world.  It's the up to 
23 dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the usefulness of DFS for 
PTMP past a couple miles.  The ~16 dBi gain 90° sectors 2-300' up in the air 
just can't hear those SMs over all the noise they are picking up.  What we need 
is the ability to run downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8.

 

 

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

  Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are 
just shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think the channel needs 
to be clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it.

  Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events 
are that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS events are more likely if 
you lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP limit.  False 
detects happen, but I don't think it's a daily event.  Disclaimer: I've mostly 
used it on Point to point with dishes.  I'm not sure if you'd pick up more 
anomolies on a sector antenna.

  The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get that 32 
SNR for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when you've already got 
someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering the power ruins them.  

  Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site where you 
have a bunch of 

Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Ken Hohhof]

Chicago has 2 TDWRs (for OHare and Midway) and both are in the 5600-5650 MHz 
band.  I think a lot of WISP equipment actually locks out those frequencies, 
and the only place a WISP would be desperate enough to use that 50 MHz 
apparently is Puerto Rico, which is apparently the Wild West of spectrum.

 

http://www.wispa.org/Resources/Industry-Resources/TDWR-Resources/TDWR-Locations-and-Frequencies

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:16 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

Those radars sweep the sky pretty slowly.  Like 60 rpm.  It would be 
theoretically possible to be on their frequency and just blank TX when it is 
looking your way.  You could extract timing sync from the radar sweep and 
figure out when to blank.  Their gain is such that you would only have to blank 
for perhaps 50 mS.  

 

If I had more ambition I would ask for an experimental license to play with the 
idea.  

 

From: Ken Hohhof 

Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:11 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

Only the APs, at least under FCC rules, I’m not sure about the rest of the 
world.

 

That alone IMHO says DFS is a joke, or regulatory “experts” deluding 
themselves.  If I have a sector pointed away from some government radar, it 
won’t detect the radar, but the SMs are pointed back at the radar and are not 
required to have a detection mechanism.  Probably a good point that it would be 
too complicated for one SM to detect radar and then communicate with the AP to 
request a channel change.  But you really need something like a SAS for this 
spectrum sharing idea to work.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

one thing i have always wondered is do the SM's actually look for RADAR or only 
the AP's?

 

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 12:55 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

Yes, that’s true, but a higher gain antenna at the SM end helps rcv but not 
xmt.  And SM-->AP is the direction you may actually need a better signal 
because the AP likely has a sector antenna and is mounted higher so it sees 
more interference.

 

It would not be unusual to have a 16 dBi antenna at the AP but a 25 dBi antenna 
at the SM.  The antenna gain would help the rcv signal at the SM, but it would 
probably have to lower its conducted power by 9 dB to stay within the 
regulatory EIRP limit.

 

In contrast, in U-NII-3 the CPE end is treated as point-to-point and can use 
antenna gain to exceed the AP limit of 36 dBm EIRP (subject to OOBE limits).

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:27 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat EIRP 
limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.

On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:

6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world.  It's the up to 23 
dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the usefulness of DFS for PTMP 
past a couple miles.  The ~16 dBi gain 90° sectors 2-300' up in the air just 
can't hear those SMs over all the noise they are picking up.  What we need is 
the ability to run downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8.

 

 

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are just 
shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think the channel needs to 
be clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it.

Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events are 
that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS events are more likely if you 
lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP limit.  False detects 
happen, but I don't think it's a daily event.  Disclaimer: I've mostly used it 
on Point to point with dishes.  I'm not sure if you'd pick up more anomolies on 
a sector antenna.

The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get that 32 SNR 
for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when you've already got 
someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering the power ruins them.  

Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site where you have a 
bunch of customers within 1-2 miles.  Unfortunately I don't have sites like 
that.

-Adam

 

 

On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get false 
radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So I’m a bit confused about 
DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as home routers.

 

Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS 

Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[chuck]

Those radars sweep the sky pretty slowly.  Like 60 rpm.  It would be 
theoretically possible to be on their frequency and just blank TX when it is 
looking your way.  You could extract timing sync from the radar sweep and 
figure out when to blank.  Their gain is such that you would only have to blank 
for perhaps 50 mS.  

If I had more ambition I would ask for an experimental license to play with the 
idea.  

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:11 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

Only the APs, at least under FCC rules, I’m not sure about the rest of the 
world.

 

That alone IMHO says DFS is a joke, or regulatory “experts” deluding 
themselves.  If I have a sector pointed away from some government radar, it 
won’t detect the radar, but the SMs are pointed back at the radar and are not 
required to have a detection mechanism.  Probably a good point that it would be 
too complicated for one SM to detect radar and then communicate with the AP to 
request a channel change.  But you really need something like a SAS for this 
spectrum sharing idea to work.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

one thing i have always wondered is do the SM's actually look for RADAR or only 
the AP's?

 

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 12:55 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

  Yes, that’s true, but a higher gain antenna at the SM end helps rcv but not 
xmt.  And SMàAP is the direction you may actually need a better signal because 
the AP likely has a sector antenna and is mounted higher so it sees more 
interference.

   

  It would not be unusual to have a 16 dBi antenna at the AP but a 25 dBi 
antenna at the SM.  The antenna gain would help the rcv signal at the SM, but 
it would probably have to lower its conducted power by 9 dB to stay within the 
regulatory EIRP limit.

   

  In contrast, in U-NII-3 the CPE end is treated as point-to-point and can use 
antenna gain to exceed the AP limit of 36 dBm EIRP (subject to OOBE limits).

   

  From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
  Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:27 AM
  To: af@af.afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

   

  There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat EIRP 
limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.

  On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:

6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world.  It's the up to 
23 dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the usefulness of DFS for 
PTMP past a couple miles.  The ~16 dBi gain 90° sectors 2-300' up in the air 
just can't hear those SMs over all the noise they are picking up.  What we need 
is the ability to run downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8.

 

 

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

  Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are 
just shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think the channel needs 
to be clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it.

  Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events 
are that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS events are more likely if 
you lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP limit.  False 
detects happen, but I don't think it's a daily event.  Disclaimer: I've mostly 
used it on Point to point with dishes.  I'm not sure if you'd pick up more 
anomolies on a sector antenna.

  The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get that 32 
SNR for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when you've already got 
someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering the power ruins them.  

  Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site where you 
have a bunch of customers within 1-2 miles.  Unfortunately I don't have sites 
like that.

  -Adam

   

   

  On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get 
false radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So I’m a bit confused 
about DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as home routers.

 

Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the Cambium 
gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.  But on other gear, I 
don’t see this.  When there’s a DFS hit, does it jump to another random 
frequency?  Does it rescan the current frequency until it tests clear and only 
then resume transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I’m being 
stupid?  Maybe in the case of routers they are exempt because of low EIRP?

 

Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a competitor 
using Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential subscriber speed plans up to 
100x100.  Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if not 80 

Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Ken Hohhof]

Only the APs, at least under FCC rules, I’m not sure about the rest of the 
world.

 

That alone IMHO says DFS is a joke, or regulatory “experts” deluding 
themselves.  If I have a sector pointed away from some government radar, it 
won’t detect the radar, but the SMs are pointed back at the radar and are not 
required to have a detection mechanism.  Probably a good point that it would be 
too complicated for one SM to detect radar and then communicate with the AP to 
request a channel change.  But you really need something like a SAS for this 
spectrum sharing idea to work.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 12:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

one thing i have always wondered is do the SM's actually look for RADAR or only 
the AP's?

 

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 12:55 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

Yes, that’s true, but a higher gain antenna at the SM end helps rcv but not 
xmt.  And SM-->AP is the direction you may actually need a better signal 
because the AP likely has a sector antenna and is mounted higher so it sees 
more interference.

 

It would not be unusual to have a 16 dBi antenna at the AP but a 25 dBi antenna 
at the SM.  The antenna gain would help the rcv signal at the SM, but it would 
probably have to lower its conducted power by 9 dB to stay within the 
regulatory EIRP limit.

 

In contrast, in U-NII-3 the CPE end is treated as point-to-point and can use 
antenna gain to exceed the AP limit of 36 dBm EIRP (subject to OOBE limits).

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:27 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat EIRP 
limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.

On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:

6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world.  It's the up to 23 
dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the usefulness of DFS for PTMP 
past a couple miles.  The ~16 dBi gain 90° sectors 2-300' up in the air just 
can't hear those SMs over all the noise they are picking up.  What we need is 
the ability to run downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8.

 

 

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are just 
shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think the channel needs to 
be clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it.

Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events are 
that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS events are more likely if you 
lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP limit.  False detects 
happen, but I don't think it's a daily event.  Disclaimer: I've mostly used it 
on Point to point with dishes.  I'm not sure if you'd pick up more anomolies on 
a sector antenna.

The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get that 32 SNR 
for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when you've already got 
someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering the power ruins them.  

Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site where you have a 
bunch of customers within 1-2 miles.  Unfortunately I don't have sites like 
that.

-Adam

 

 

On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get false 
radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So I’m a bit confused about 
DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as home routers.

 

Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the Cambium gear, 
we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.  But on other gear, I don’t see 
this.  When there’s a DFS hit, does it jump to another random frequency?  Does 
it rescan the current frequency until it tests clear and only then resume 
transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I’m being stupid?  Maybe 
in the case of routers they are exempt because of low EIRP?

 

Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a competitor using 
Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential subscriber speed plans up to 100x100. 
 Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if not 80 MHz, or else 
their marketing people have burning pants and long noses.  And I don’t see how 
a WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use wide channels other 
than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using 40 MHz but only 10 and 20 MHz 
channels on our APs.  So assuming you are using 40 or 80 MHz in DFS, what 
happens when there’s a DFS detect?  Does the whole 40 or 80 MHz have to find a 
new home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and substantially overlap the 
previous occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with enough spectrum to use wide 
channels, but 

Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Kurt Fankhauser]

I wonder if the FCC would be open to a discussion about allowing higher TX
power on SM's considering that that are usually way lower to the ground
then AP's tend to be mounted.

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 1:06 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> Only AP
> On 11/21/2019 1:04 PM, Kurt Fankhauser wrote:
>
> one thing i have always wondered is do the SM's actually look for RADAR or
> only the AP's?
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 12:55 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
>> Yes, that’s true, but a higher gain antenna at the SM end helps rcv but
>> not xmt.  And SMàAP is the direction you may actually need a better
>> signal because the AP likely has a sector antenna and is mounted higher so
>> it sees more interference.
>>
>>
>>
>> It would not be unusual to have a 16 dBi antenna at the AP but a 25 dBi
>> antenna at the SM.  The antenna gain would help the rcv signal at the SM,
>> but it would probably have to lower its conducted power by 9 dB to stay
>> within the regulatory EIRP limit.
>>
>>
>>
>> In contrast, in U-NII-3 the CPE end is treated as point-to-point and can
>> use antenna gain to exceed the AP limit of 36 dBm EIRP (subject to OOBE
>> limits).
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:27 AM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions
>>
>>
>>
>> There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat
>> EIRP limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.
>>
>> On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:
>>
>> 6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world.  It's the up
>> to 23 dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the usefulness of DFS
>> for PTMP past a couple miles.  The ~16 dBi gain 90° sectors 2-300' up in
>> the air just can't hear those SMs over all the noise they are picking up.
>> What we need is the ability to run downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are
>> just shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think the channel
>> needs to be clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it.
>>
>> Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events
>> are that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS events are more
>> likely if you lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP
>> limit.  False detects happen, but I don't think it's a daily event.
>> Disclaimer: I've mostly used it on Point to point with dishes.  I'm not
>> sure if you'd pick up more anomolies on a sector antenna.
>>
>> The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get that 32
>> SNR for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when you've already
>> got someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering the power ruins them.
>>
>> Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site where you
>> have a bunch of customers within 1-2 miles.  Unfortunately I don't have
>> sites like that.
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
>>
>> We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get
>> false radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So I’m a bit
>> confused about DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as home
>> routers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the Cambium
>> gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.  But on other gear, I
>> don’t see this.  When there’s a DFS hit, does it jump to another random
>> frequency?  Does it rescan the current frequency until it tests clear and
>> only then resume transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I’m
>> being stupid?  Maybe in the case of routers they are exempt because of low
>> EIRP?
>>
>>
>>
>> Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a competitor
>> using Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential subscriber speed plans up
>> to 100x100.  Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if not 80
>> MHz, or else their marketing people have burning pants and long noses.  And
>> I don’t see how a WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use
>> wide channels other than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using 40 MHz
>> but only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs.  So assuming you are using 40
>> or 80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there’s a DFS detect?  Does the whole
>> 40 or 80 MHz have to find a new home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and
>> substantially overlap the previous occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with
>> enough spectrum to use wide channels, but is there enough to jump around
>> when you take a DFS hit?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> 

Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Adam Moffett]

Only AP

On 11/21/2019 1:04 PM, Kurt Fankhauser wrote:
one thing i have always wondered is do the SM's actually look for 
RADAR or only the AP's?


On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 12:55 PM Ken Hohhof > wrote:


Yes, that’s true, but a higher gain antenna at the SM end helps
rcv but not xmt.  And SMàAP is the direction you may actually need
a better signal because the AP likely has a sector antenna and is
mounted higher so it sees more interference.

It would not be unusual to have a 16 dBi antenna at the AP but a
25 dBi antenna at the SM. The antenna gain would help the rcv
signal at the SM, but it would probably have to lower its
conducted power by 9 dB to stay within the regulatory EIRP limit.

In contrast, in U-NII-3 the CPE end is treated as point-to-point
and can use antenna gain to exceed the AP limit of 36 dBm EIRP
(subject to OOBE limits).

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:27 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had
flat EIRP limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.

On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:

6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world. 
It's the up to 23 dBm loss on the SM transmit power that
destroys the usefulness of DFS for PTMP past a couple miles.
The ~16 dBi gain 90° sectors 2-300' up in the air just can't
hear those SMs over all the noise they are picking up.  What
we need is the ability to run downlink on DFS and uplink on
5.2 or 5.8.

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate
channels that are just shifted over 5mhz from where you
were.  And yeah I think the channel needs to be clear for
a few minutes before you can go back to it.

Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't
think DFS events are that big of a deal.  My understanding
is that DFS events are more likely if you lie to the
software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP limit. False
detects happen, but I don't think it's a daily event. 
Disclaimer: I've mostly used it on Point to point with
dishes.  I'm not sure if you'd pick up more anomolies on a
sector antenna.

The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying
to get that 32 SNR for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of
hurts.  Or when you've already got someone hooked up 10
miles away and lowering the power ruins them.

Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a
site where you have a bunch of customers within 1-2
miles.  Unfortunately I don't have sites like that.

-Adam

On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the
impact if we get false radar detects.  Also we are
mostly a Cambium shop.  So I’m a bit confused about
DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as
home routers.

Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS
detection?  On the Cambium gear, we have to select 1
or 2 alternate frequencies.  But on other gear, I
don’t see this.  When there’s a DFS hit, does it jump
to another random frequency? Does it rescan the
current frequency until it tests clear and only then
resume transmission?  Is the answer right in front of
me and I’m being stupid?  Maybe in the case of routers
they are exempt because of low EIRP?

Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We
have a competitor using Ubiquiti gear and advertising
residential subscriber speed plans up to 100x100. 
Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if
not 80 MHz, or else their marketing people have
burning pants and long noses.  And I don’t see how a
WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could
use wide channels other than in DFS bands.  We have
some PTP links using 40 MHz but only 10 and 20 MHz
channels on our APs.  So assuming you are using 40 or
80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there’s a DFS
detect?  Does the whole 40 or 80 MHz have to find a
new home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and
substantially overlap the previous occupied 

Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Kurt Fankhauser]

one thing i have always wondered is do the SM's actually look for RADAR or
only the AP's?

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 12:55 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> Yes, that’s true, but a higher gain antenna at the SM end helps rcv but
> not xmt.  And SMàAP is the direction you may actually need a better
> signal because the AP likely has a sector antenna and is mounted higher so
> it sees more interference.
>
>
>
> It would not be unusual to have a 16 dBi antenna at the AP but a 25 dBi
> antenna at the SM.  The antenna gain would help the rcv signal at the SM,
> but it would probably have to lower its conducted power by 9 dB to stay
> within the regulatory EIRP limit.
>
>
>
> In contrast, in U-NII-3 the CPE end is treated as point-to-point and can
> use antenna gain to exceed the AP limit of 36 dBm EIRP (subject to OOBE
> limits).
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:27 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions
>
>
>
> There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat
> EIRP limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.
>
> On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:
>
> 6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world.  It's the up to
> 23 dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the usefulness of DFS
> for PTMP past a couple miles.  The ~16 dBi gain 90° sectors 2-300' up in
> the air just can't hear those SMs over all the noise they are picking up.
> What we need is the ability to run downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are
> just shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think the channel
> needs to be clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it.
>
> Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events
> are that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS events are more
> likely if you lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP
> limit.  False detects happen, but I don't think it's a daily event.
> Disclaimer: I've mostly used it on Point to point with dishes.  I'm not
> sure if you'd pick up more anomolies on a sector antenna.
>
> The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get that 32
> SNR for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when you've already
> got someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering the power ruins them.
>
> Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site where you
> have a bunch of customers within 1-2 miles.  Unfortunately I don't have
> sites like that.
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
>
> We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get
> false radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So I’m a bit
> confused about DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as home
> routers.
>
>
>
> Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the Cambium
> gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.  But on other gear, I
> don’t see this.  When there’s a DFS hit, does it jump to another random
> frequency?  Does it rescan the current frequency until it tests clear and
> only then resume transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I’m
> being stupid?  Maybe in the case of routers they are exempt because of low
> EIRP?
>
>
>
> Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a competitor
> using Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential subscriber speed plans up
> to 100x100.  Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if not 80
> MHz, or else their marketing people have burning pants and long noses.  And
> I don’t see how a WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use
> wide channels other than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using 40 MHz
> but only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs.  So assuming you are using 40
> or 80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there’s a DFS detect?  Does the whole
> 40 or 80 MHz have to find a new home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and
> substantially overlap the previous occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with
> enough spectrum to use wide channels, but is there enough to jump around
> when you take a DFS hit?
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] 48 Volt Battery Revert

[Ken Hohhof]

We use a Traco TSP-BCM48.  It requires a separate TSP series power supply,
and controls the output of the power supply to the proper temperature
compensated battery voltage.  There are various sizes of power supplies like
90, 180 and 360 watts, we mostly use the TSP 148-360.  There's also a 600
watt power supply and a larger version of the BCM, I think they add an A to
the model number.  We haven't had to go that far yet, at sites that use that
much power we either have an Eltek DC system or an Alpha AC system.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:37 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] 48 Volt Battery Revert

We use Meanwell DIN mount stuff for battery revert.  For 24 volt systems we
use.

DRP-240-24 - power supply
DR-UPS40 - battery revert

I want to move to 48 volt battery banks now instead of up converting 24 to
48.

So what is a version of DR-UPS40 that is DIN mount and supports 48 volt?

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[castarritt .]

What Ken said.  Also, the upper band isn't a flat 36 dBm; the SM gets to
transmit at up to 53 dBm under the PTP rules.

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 11:55 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> Yes, that’s true, but a higher gain antenna at the SM end helps rcv but
> not xmt.  And SMàAP is the direction you may actually need a better
> signal because the AP likely has a sector antenna and is mounted higher so
> it sees more interference.
>
>
>
> It would not be unusual to have a 16 dBi antenna at the AP but a 25 dBi
> antenna at the SM.  The antenna gain would help the rcv signal at the SM,
> but it would probably have to lower its conducted power by 9 dB to stay
> within the regulatory EIRP limit.
>
>
>
> In contrast, in U-NII-3 the CPE end is treated as point-to-point and can
> use antenna gain to exceed the AP limit of 36 dBm EIRP (subject to OOBE
> limits).
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:27 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions
>
>
>
> There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat
> EIRP limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.
>
> On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:
>
> 6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world.  It's the up to
> 23 dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the usefulness of DFS
> for PTMP past a couple miles.  The ~16 dBi gain 90° sectors 2-300' up in
> the air just can't hear those SMs over all the noise they are picking up.
> What we need is the ability to run downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are
> just shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think the channel
> needs to be clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it.
>
> Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events
> are that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS events are more
> likely if you lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP
> limit.  False detects happen, but I don't think it's a daily event.
> Disclaimer: I've mostly used it on Point to point with dishes.  I'm not
> sure if you'd pick up more anomolies on a sector antenna.
>
> The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get that 32
> SNR for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when you've already
> got someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering the power ruins them.
>
> Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site where you
> have a bunch of customers within 1-2 miles.  Unfortunately I don't have
> sites like that.
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
>
> We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get
> false radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So I’m a bit
> confused about DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as home
> routers.
>
>
>
> Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the Cambium
> gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.  But on other gear, I
> don’t see this.  When there’s a DFS hit, does it jump to another random
> frequency?  Does it rescan the current frequency until it tests clear and
> only then resume transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I’m
> being stupid?  Maybe in the case of routers they are exempt because of low
> EIRP?
>
>
>
> Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a competitor
> using Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential subscriber speed plans up
> to 100x100.  Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if not 80
> MHz, or else their marketing people have burning pants and long noses.  And
> I don’t see how a WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use
> wide channels other than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using 40 MHz
> but only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs.  So assuming you are using 40
> or 80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there’s a DFS detect?  Does the whole
> 40 or 80 MHz have to find a new home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and
> substantially overlap the previous occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with
> enough spectrum to use wide channels, but is there enough to jump around
> when you take a DFS hit?
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Ken Hohhof]

Yes, that’s true, but a higher gain antenna at the SM end helps rcv but not 
xmt.  And SM-->AP is the direction you may actually need a better signal 
because the AP likely has a sector antenna and is mounted higher so it sees 
more interference.

 

It would not be unusual to have a 16 dBi antenna at the AP but a 25 dBi antenna 
at the SM.  The antenna gain would help the rcv signal at the SM, but it would 
probably have to lower its conducted power by 9 dB to stay within the 
regulatory EIRP limit.

 

In contrast, in U-NII-3 the CPE end is treated as point-to-point and can use 
antenna gain to exceed the AP limit of 36 dBm EIRP (subject to OOBE limits).

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:27 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat EIRP 
limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.

On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:

6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world.  It's the up to 23 
dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the usefulness of DFS for PTMP 
past a couple miles.  The ~16 dBi gain 90° sectors 2-300' up in the air just 
can't hear those SMs over all the noise they are picking up.  What we need is 
the ability to run downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8.

 

 

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are just 
shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think the channel needs to 
be clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it.

Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events are 
that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS events are more likely if you 
lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP limit.  False detects 
happen, but I don't think it's a daily event.  Disclaimer: I've mostly used it 
on Point to point with dishes.  I'm not sure if you'd pick up more anomolies on 
a sector antenna.

The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get that 32 SNR 
for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when you've already got 
someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering the power ruins them.  

Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site where you have a 
bunch of customers within 1-2 miles.  Unfortunately I don't have sites like 
that.

-Adam

 

 

On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get false 
radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So I’m a bit confused about 
DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as home routers.

 

Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the Cambium gear, 
we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.  But on other gear, I don’t see 
this.  When there’s a DFS hit, does it jump to another random frequency?  Does 
it rescan the current frequency until it tests clear and only then resume 
transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I’m being stupid?  Maybe 
in the case of routers they are exempt because of low EIRP?

 

Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a competitor using 
Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential subscriber speed plans up to 100x100. 
 Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if not 80 MHz, or else 
their marketing people have burning pants and long noses.  And I don’t see how 
a WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use wide channels other 
than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using 40 MHz but only 10 and 20 MHz 
channels on our APs.  So assuming you are using 40 or 80 MHz in DFS, what 
happens when there’s a DFS detect?  Does the whole 40 or 80 MHz have to find a 
new home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and substantially overlap the 
previous occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with enough spectrum to use wide 
channels, but is there enough to jump around when you take a DFS hit?





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Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Kurt Fankhauser]

We are using DFS on PMP450 for customer access and AF5XHD for backhauls. It
works surprisingly well. On both the PMP450 and AF5XHD's you can set an
alternative freq and a secondary alternative for the radios to immediately
jump to if they detect RADAR. Radios will try the first alt freq and if
they get a hit on that will then go to the second freq. It should happen
instantly without taking the link down. If you do not set the alt freqs the
radios will shutdown for 30 minutes and then attempt to use that freq
again. I have noticed that the wider the channels you use the more
"susceptible" you are yo getting a radar event. Try running on 20mhz
channels and you wont get as many hits if any. We have some AP's that have
been running for 6 months+ without any radar hits. We are also not anywhere
near any airports so that may be helping us as well.

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 12:42 PM Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:

> You do.
>
> On 11/21/19 12:27 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
> > There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat
> > EIRP limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.
> >
> > On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:
> >> 6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world. It's the up
> >> to 23 dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the
> >> usefulness of DFS for PTMP past a couple miles. The ~16 dBi gain 90°
> >> sectors 2-300' up in the air just can't hear those SMs over all the
> >> noise they are picking up.  What we need is the ability to run
> >> downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that
> >> are just shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think
> >> the channel needs to be clear for a few minutes before you can go
> >> back to it.
> >>
> >> Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS
> >> events are that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS
> >> events are more likely if you lie to the software about antenna
> >> gain to cheat the EIRP limit.  False detects happen, but I don't
> >> think it's a daily event.  Disclaimer: I've mostly used it on
> >> Point to point with dishes.  I'm not sure if you'd pick up more
> >> anomolies on a sector antenna.
> >>
> >> The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get
> >> that 32 SNR for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when
> >> you've already got someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering
> >> the power ruins them.
> >>
> >> Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site
> >> where you have a bunch of customers within 1-2 miles.
> >> Unfortunately I don't have sites like that.
> >>
> >> -Adam
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
> >>>
> >>> We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if
> >>> we get false radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.
> >>> So I’m a bit confused about DFS on other vendor equipment like
> >>> Ubiquiti as well as home routers.
> >>>
> >>> Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the
> >>> Cambium gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.
> >>> But on other gear, I don’t see this.  When there’s a DFS hit,
> >>> does it jump to another random frequency?  Does it rescan the
> >>> current frequency until it tests clear and only then resume
> >>> transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I’m being
> >>> stupid?  Maybe in the case of routers they are exempt because of
> >>> low EIRP?
> >>>
> >>> Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a
> >>> competitor using Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential
> >>> subscriber speed plans up to 100x100.  Clearly they must be using
> >>> at least 40 MHz channels if not 80 MHz, or else their marketing
> >>> people have burning pants and long noses. And I don’t see how a
> >>> WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use wide
> >>> channels other than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using
> >>> 40 MHz but only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs.  So assuming
> >>> you are using 40 or 80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there’s a
> >>> DFS detect?  Does the whole 40 or 80 MHz have to find a new
> >>> home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and substantially overlap
> >>> the previous occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with enough
> >>> spectrum to use wide channels, but is there enough to jump around
> >>> when you take a DFS hit?
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> AF mailing list
> >> AF@af.afmug.com 
> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> 

Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Ken Hohhof]

The idea that DFS detects must be from TDWR or military radar, or from
cheating on the antenna gain setting (which wouldn't even be possible with
integral sector antennas), is just not true.

 

Maybe some equipment has detection algorithms that are less susceptible to
false positives than others, but I still say there are false positives.
Sometimes I think just a reflection of another WISP radio off a moving
vehicle might cause it, who knows?  But it's not radar.  Unless it's being
tripped by something like speed trap guns, but Wikipedia says those mostly
use X, K and Ka bands which are all above 10 GHz.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:02 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

I would think you can do a frequency search on radar in the area and simply
shut off those frequencies.  I have never used anything on DFS but a an
armchair QB would that not be the proactive solution?  Those big TDWR don't
change positions.  Not sure if the change their frequencies around, but even
if they did, I am sure they are re-using the same frequencies and not just
sliding around in a band.  Maybe the are?

 

From: Adam Moffett 

Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 9:55 AM

To: af@af.afmug.com   

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

 

Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are just
shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think the channel needs
to be clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it.

Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events are
that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS events are more likely if
you lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP limit.  False
detects happen, but I don't think it's a daily event.  Disclaimer: I've
mostly used it on Point to point with dishes.  I'm not sure if you'd pick up
more anomolies on a sector antenna.

The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get that 32 SNR
for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when you've already got
someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering the power ruins them.  

Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site where you have
a bunch of customers within 1-2 miles.  Unfortunately I don't have sites
like that.

-Adam

 

 

On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get false
radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So I'm a bit confused
about DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as home routers.

 

Question 1 - what happens when there's a DFS detection?  On the Cambium
gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.  But on other gear, I
don't see this.  When there's a DFS hit, does it jump to another random
frequency?  Does it rescan the current frequency until it tests clear and
only then resume transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I'm
being stupid?  Maybe in the case of routers they are exempt because of low
EIRP?

 

Question 2 - what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a competitor using
Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential subscriber speed plans up to
100x100.  Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if not 80 MHz,
or else their marketing people have burning pants and long noses.  And I
don't see how a WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use
wide channels other than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using 40 MHz
but only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs.  So assuming you are using 40 or
80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there's a DFS detect?  Does the whole 40 or
80 MHz have to find a new home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and
substantially overlap the previous occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with
enough spectrum to use wide channels, but is there enough to jump around
when you take a DFS hit?





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Re: [AFMUG] 48 Volt Battery Revert

[Adam Moffett]

Last I checked there wasn't an equivalent 48V unit in Meanwell's product 
line.


There's the AD-155C.  That only goes to 155W.

They also have a rack mount modular rectifier chassis.  I don't think 
they had a -48V step in between little bitty AD-155C and the big unit.



On 11/21/2019 12:37 PM, Matt wrote:

We use Meanwell DIN mount stuff for battery revert.  For 24 volt systems we use.

DRP-240-24 - power supply
DR-UPS40 - battery revert

I want to move to 48 volt battery banks now instead of up converting 24 to 48.

So what is a version of DR-UPS40 that is DIN mount and supports 48 volt?



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Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Matt Hoppes]

You do.

On 11/21/19 12:27 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat 
EIRP limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.


On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:
6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world. It's the up 
to 23 dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the 
usefulness of DFS for PTMP past a couple miles. The ~16 dBi gain 90° 
sectors 2-300' up in the air just can't hear those SMs over all the 
noise they are picking up.  What we need is the ability to run 
downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8.



On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett > wrote:


Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that
are just shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think
the channel needs to be clear for a few minutes before you can go
back to it.

Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS
events are that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS
events are more likely if you lie to the software about antenna
gain to cheat the EIRP limit.  False detects happen, but I don't
think it's a daily event.  Disclaimer: I've mostly used it on
Point to point with dishes.  I'm not sure if you'd pick up more
anomolies on a sector antenna.

The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get
that 32 SNR for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when
you've already got someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering
the power ruins them.

Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site
where you have a bunch of customers within 1-2 miles. 
Unfortunately I don't have sites like that.


-Adam



On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if
we get false radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop. 
So I’m a bit confused about DFS on other vendor equipment like

Ubiquiti as well as home routers.

Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the
Cambium gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies. 
But on other gear, I don’t see this.  When there’s a DFS hit,

does it jump to another random frequency?  Does it rescan the
current frequency until it tests clear and only then resume
transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I’m being
stupid?  Maybe in the case of routers they are exempt because of
low EIRP?

Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a
competitor using Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential
subscriber speed plans up to 100x100.  Clearly they must be using
at least 40 MHz channels if not 80 MHz, or else their marketing
people have burning pants and long noses. And I don’t see how a
WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use wide
channels other than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using
40 MHz but only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs.  So assuming
you are using 40 or 80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there’s a
DFS detect?  Does the whole 40 or 80 MHz have to find a new
home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and substantially overlap
the previous occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with enough
spectrum to use wide channels, but is there enough to jump around
when you take a DFS hit?


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Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Matt Hoppes]

We don't like our APs jumping channels, and we have too tight of a 
channel plan to have "extra" channels available.  We lock our APs to the 
DFS frequency.


If a detection happens (true or false) the AP shuts down for 30 minutes 
and then will sense and fire back up if the source is gone.  Almost 
never a false positive hit on Ubiquiti gear when run properly.


On 11/21/19 11:41 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
180 second wait on a detect, i believe. so it waits the 180 before 
transmitting initially, then if there is a detection it waits to hop. 
the 4.4.2 firmware is really sticky on your alternate channels, it wont 
let you save them if you dont have the required separation (no to 2.5 or 
5mhz) DFS is really only a 2 mile pmp solution on a good day with your 
leg cocked back. but you can do massive speeds in that 2 miles. youre 
"supposed" to spread your DFS use across the whole band across your 
network but i doubt anybody does. consumer stuff i wonder if it has the 
same requirements for detection since its "indoor" only.


On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:32 AM Ken Hohhof > wrote:


We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we
get false radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So I’m
a bit confused about DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as
well as home routers.

__ __

Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the
Cambium gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.  But
on other gear, I don’t see this.  When there’s a DFS hit, does it
jump to another random frequency?  Does it rescan the current
frequency until it tests clear and only then resume transmission? 
Is the answer right in front of me and I’m being stupid?  Maybe in

the case of routers they are exempt because of low EIRP?

__ __

Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a
competitor using Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential
subscriber speed plans up to 100x100.  Clearly they must be using at
least 40 MHz channels if not 80 MHz, or else their marketing people
have burning pants and long noses.  And I don’t see how a WISP,
especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use wide channels
other than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using 40 MHz but
only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs.  So assuming you are using
40 or 80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there’s a DFS detect?  Does
the whole 40 or 80 MHz have to find a new home?  Can it slide over
2.5 or 5 MHz and substantially overlap the previous occupied
spectrum?  DFS bands come with enough spectrum to use wide channels,
but is there enough to jump around when you take a DFS hit?

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[AFMUG] 48 Volt Battery Revert

[Matt]

We use Meanwell DIN mount stuff for battery revert.  For 24 volt systems we use.

DRP-240-24 - power supply
DR-UPS40 - battery revert

I want to move to 48 volt battery banks now instead of up converting 24 to 48.

So what is a version of DR-UPS40 that is DIN mount and supports 48 volt?

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Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Adam Moffett]

There might be something I don't understand, but I thought you had flat 
EIRP limit of +30dbm whether it's an SM or an AP.


On 11/21/2019 12:11 PM, castarritt . wrote:
6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world. It's the up 
to 23 dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the 
usefulness of DFS for PTMP past a couple miles. The ~16 dBi gain 90° 
sectors 2-300' up in the air just can't hear those SMs over all the 
noise they are picking up.  What we need is the ability to run 
downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8.



On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett > wrote:


Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that
are just shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think
the channel needs to be clear for a few minutes before you can go
back to it.

Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS
events are that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS
events are more likely if you lie to the software about antenna
gain to cheat the EIRP limit.  False detects happen, but I don't
think it's a daily event.  Disclaimer: I've mostly used it on
Point to point with dishes.  I'm not sure if you'd pick up more
anomolies on a sector antenna.

The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get
that 32 SNR for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when
you've already got someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering
the power ruins them.

Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site
where you have a bunch of customers within 1-2 miles. 
Unfortunately I don't have sites like that.

-Adam



On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if
we get false radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop. 
So I’m a bit confused about DFS on other vendor equipment like
Ubiquiti as well as home routers.

Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the
Cambium gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies. 
But on other gear, I don’t see this.  When there’s a DFS hit,
does it jump to another random frequency?  Does it rescan the
current frequency until it tests clear and only then resume
transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I’m being
stupid?  Maybe in the case of routers they are exempt because of
low EIRP?

Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a
competitor using Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential
subscriber speed plans up to 100x100.  Clearly they must be using
at least 40 MHz channels if not 80 MHz, or else their marketing
people have burning pants and long noses. And I don’t see how a
WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use wide
channels other than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using
40 MHz but only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs.  So assuming
you are using 40 or 80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there’s a
DFS detect?  Does the whole 40 or 80 MHz have to find a new
home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and substantially overlap
the previous occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with enough
spectrum to use wide channels, but is there enough to jump around
when you take a DFS hit?


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Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[castarritt .]

6 dBm loss for the AP transmit isn't the end of the world.  It's the up to
23 dBm loss on the SM transmit power that destroys the usefulness of DFS
for PTMP past a couple miles.  The ~16 dBi gain 90° sectors 2-300' up in
the air just can't hear those SMs over all the noise they are picking up.
What we need is the ability to run downlink on DFS and uplink on 5.2 or 5.8.


On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are
> just shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think the channel
> needs to be clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it.
>
> Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events
> are that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS events are more
> likely if you lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP
> limit.  False detects happen, but I don't think it's a daily event.
> Disclaimer: I've mostly used it on Point to point with dishes.  I'm not
> sure if you'd pick up more anomolies on a sector antenna.
>
> The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get that 32
> SNR for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when you've already
> got someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering the power ruins them.
>
> Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site where you
> have a bunch of customers within 1-2 miles.  Unfortunately I don't have
> sites like that.
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
> On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
>
> We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get
> false radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So I’m a bit
> confused about DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as home
> routers.
>
>
>
> Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the Cambium
> gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.  But on other gear, I
> don’t see this.  When there’s a DFS hit, does it jump to another random
> frequency?  Does it rescan the current frequency until it tests clear and
> only then resume transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I’m
> being stupid?  Maybe in the case of routers they are exempt because of low
> EIRP?
>
>
>
> Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a competitor
> using Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential subscriber speed plans up
> to 100x100.  Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if not 80
> MHz, or else their marketing people have burning pants and long noses.  And
> I don’t see how a WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use
> wide channels other than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using 40 MHz
> but only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs.  So assuming you are using 40
> or 80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there’s a DFS detect?  Does the whole
> 40 or 80 MHz have to find a new home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and
> substantially overlap the previous occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with
> enough spectrum to use wide channels, but is there enough to jump around
> when you take a DFS hit?
>
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Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[chuck]

I would think you can do a frequency search on radar in the area and simply 
shut off those frequencies.  I have never used anything on DFS but a an 
armchair QB would that not be the proactive solution?  Those big TDWR don’t 
change positions.  Not sure if the change their frequencies around, but even if 
they did, I am sure they are re-using the same frequencies and not just sliding 
around in a band.  Maybe the are?

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 9:55 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are just 
shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think the channel needs to 
be clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it.


Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events are 
that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS events are more likely if you 
lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP limit.  False detects 
happen, but I don't think it's a daily event.  Disclaimer: I've mostly used it 
on Point to point with dishes.  I'm not sure if you'd pick up more anomolies on 
a sector antenna.


The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get that 32 SNR 
for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when you've already got 
someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering the power ruins them.  


Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site where you have a 
bunch of customers within 1-2 miles.  Unfortunately I don't have sites like 
that.

-Adam





On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

  We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get false 
radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So I’m a bit confused about 
DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as home routers.

   

  Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the Cambium gear, 
we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.  But on other gear, I don’t see 
this.  When there’s a DFS hit, does it jump to another random frequency?  Does 
it rescan the current frequency until it tests clear and only then resume 
transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I’m being stupid?  Maybe 
in the case of routers they are exempt because of low EIRP?

   

  Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a competitor using 
Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential subscriber speed plans up to 100x100. 
 Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if not 80 MHz, or else 
their marketing people have burning pants and long noses.  And I don’t see how 
a WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use wide channels other 
than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using 40 MHz but only 10 and 20 MHz 
channels on our APs.  So assuming you are using 40 or 80 MHz in DFS, what 
happens when there’s a DFS detect?  Does the whole 40 or 80 MHz have to find a 
new home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and substantially overlap the 
previous occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with enough spectrum to use wide 
channels, but is there enough to jump around when you take a DFS hit?


   



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Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Adam Moffett]

...and if Belkin did it wrong, who would know or care?

On 11/21/2019 11:41 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
180 second wait on a detect, i believe. so it waits the 180 before 
transmitting initially, then if there is a detection it waits to hop. 
the 4.4.2 firmware is really sticky on your alternate channels, it 
wont let you save them if you dont have the required separation (no to 
2.5 or 5mhz) DFS is really only a 2 mile pmp solution on a good day 
with your leg cocked back. but you can do massive speeds in that 2 
miles. youre "supposed" to spread your DFS use across the whole band 
across your network but i doubt anybody does. consumer stuff i wonder 
if it has the same requirements for detection since its "indoor" only.


On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:32 AM Ken Hohhof > wrote:


We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we
get false radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So
I’m a bit confused about DFS on other vendor equipment like
Ubiquiti as well as home routers.

Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the
Cambium gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.  But
on other gear, I don’t see this.  When there’s a DFS hit, does it
jump to another random frequency?  Does it rescan the current
frequency until it tests clear and only then resume transmission? 
Is the answer right in front of me and I’m being stupid?  Maybe in
the case of routers they are exempt because of low EIRP?

Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a
competitor using Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential
subscriber speed plans up to 100x100.  Clearly they must be using
at least 40 MHz channels if not 80 MHz, or else their marketing
people have burning pants and long noses.  And I don’t see how a
WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use wide
channels other than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using 40
MHz but only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs.  So assuming you
are using 40 or 80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there’s a DFS
detect?  Does the whole 40 or 80 MHz have to find a new home?  Can
it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and substantially overlap the previous
occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with enough spectrum to use
wide channels, but is there enough to jump around when you take a
DFS hit?

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Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Adam Moffett]

Yeah I think on most equipment you can set alternate channels that are 
just shifted over 5mhz from where you were.  And yeah I think the 
channel needs to be clear for a few minutes before you can go back to it.


Assuming you don't really have a TDWR near you, I don't think DFS events 
are that big of a deal.  My understanding is that DFS events are more 
likely if you lie to the software about antenna gain to cheat the EIRP 
limit.  False detects happen, but I don't think it's a daily event.  
Disclaimer: I've mostly used it on Point to point with dishes.  I'm not 
sure if you'd pick up more anomolies on a sector antenna.


The biggest bummer is the EIRP limit.  When you're trying to get that 32 
SNR for the 256QAM then losing 6db kind of hurts.  Or when you've 
already got someone hooked up 10 miles away and lowering the power ruins 
them.


Where you really want to use DFS (In my opinion) is at a site where you 
have a bunch of customers within 1-2 miles. Unfortunately I don't have 
sites like that.


-Adam



On 11/21/2019 11:31 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get 
false radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So I’m a bit 
confused about DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as 
home routers.


Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the 
Cambium gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.  But on 
other gear, I don’t see this. When there’s a DFS hit, does it jump to 
another random frequency?  Does it rescan the current frequency until 
it tests clear and only then resume transmission?  Is the answer right 
in front of me and I’m being stupid?  Maybe in the case of routers 
they are exempt because of low EIRP?


Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a competitor 
using Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential subscriber speed plans 
up to 100x100. Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if 
not 80 MHz, or else their marketing people have burning pants and long 
noses.  And I don’t see how a WISP, especially one surrounded by other 
WISPs, could use wide channels other than in DFS bands.  We have some 
PTP links using 40 MHz but only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs.  So 
assuming you are using 40 or 80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there’s 
a DFS detect? Does the whole 40 or 80 MHz have to find a new home?  
Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and substantially overlap the previous 
occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with enough spectrum to use wide 
channels, but is there enough to jump around when you take a DFS hit?



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Re: [AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Steve Jones]

180 second wait on a detect, i believe. so it waits the 180 before
transmitting initially, then if there is a detection it waits to hop. the
4.4.2 firmware is really sticky on your alternate channels, it wont let you
save them if you dont have the required separation (no to 2.5 or 5mhz) DFS
is really only a 2 mile pmp solution on a good day with your leg cocked
back. but you can do massive speeds in that 2 miles. youre "supposed" to
spread your DFS use across the whole band across your network but i doubt
anybody does. consumer stuff i wonder if it has the same requirements for
detection since its "indoor" only.

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:32 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get
> false radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So I’m a bit
> confused about DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as home
> routers.
>
>
>
> Question 1 – what happens when there’s a DFS detection?  On the Cambium
> gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.  But on other gear, I
> don’t see this.  When there’s a DFS hit, does it jump to another random
> frequency?  Does it rescan the current frequency until it tests clear and
> only then resume transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I’m
> being stupid?  Maybe in the case of routers they are exempt because of low
> EIRP?
>
>
>
> Question 2 – what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a competitor
> using Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential subscriber speed plans up
> to 100x100.  Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if not 80
> MHz, or else their marketing people have burning pants and long noses.  And
> I don’t see how a WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use
> wide channels other than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using 40 MHz
> but only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs.  So assuming you are using 40
> or 80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there’s a DFS detect?  Does the whole
> 40 or 80 MHz have to find a new home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and
> substantially overlap the previous occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with
> enough spectrum to use wide channels, but is there enough to jump around
> when you take a DFS hit?
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[AFMUG] dumb DFS questions

[Ken Hohhof]

We mostly avoid DFS frequencies on APs because of the impact if we get false
radar detects.  Also we are mostly a Cambium shop.  So I'm a bit confused
about DFS on other vendor equipment like Ubiquiti as well as home routers.

 

Question 1 - what happens when there's a DFS detection?  On the Cambium
gear, we have to select 1 or 2 alternate frequencies.  But on other gear, I
don't see this.  When there's a DFS hit, does it jump to another random
frequency?  Does it rescan the current frequency until it tests clear and
only then resume transmission?  Is the answer right in front of me and I'm
being stupid?  Maybe in the case of routers they are exempt because of low
EIRP?

 

Question 2 - what about 40/80/160 MHz channels?  We have a competitor using
Ubiquiti gear and advertising residential subscriber speed plans up to
100x100.  Clearly they must be using at least 40 MHz channels if not 80 MHz,
or else their marketing people have burning pants and long noses.  And I
don't see how a WISP, especially one surrounded by other WISPs, could use
wide channels other than in DFS bands.  We have some PTP links using 40 MHz
but only 10 and 20 MHz channels on our APs.  So assuming you are using 40 or
80 MHz in DFS, what happens when there's a DFS detect?  Does the whole 40 or
80 MHz have to find a new home?  Can it slide over 2.5 or 5 MHz and
substantially overlap the previous occupied spectrum?  DFS bands come with
enough spectrum to use wide channels, but is there enough to jump around
when you take a DFS hit?

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[AFMUG] 450i-LITE integrated availability

[Kurt Fankhauser]

Do any vendors have the new 450i-LITE 5ghz integrated in stock yet?
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Re: [AFMUG] traffic often spikes up at 8pm

[Adam Moffett]

Orconsidering the short time frame, maybe a popular device 
distributed a software update at that time.  8pm would be the worst time 
to do that, but 8pm in the midwest must be 3am somewhere in the world.


On 11/21/2019 10:45 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:


Looking at two 10gig pipes, the one with more load has a smooth 
curve.  The other has a little under a gig of traffic, but does have a 
pretty pronounced spike.in this case at 9pm rather than 8pm (which 
interestingly would be the same real time as you since I'm EST and I 
believe you're central).


My guess is the one with more load has a larger "sample size" of users 
so it's more difficult for the normal curve to be altered by 
outliers.maybe there's that a cluster of people like at 9 eastern 
/ 8 central.


Just a guess.  I'm not going to burn any more time dwelling on it.


On 11/20/2019 10:18 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


We still see a step up around 4pm when the kids get home from 
school.  The dip at 6pm seems to have gone away, I guess people 
stream video during dinner now.


But I’m puzzled by a spike we usually see at 8pm.  Is this just a 
fluke?  Or is there some 5 minute TV show people are all watching at 
exactly 8pm?


I’m used to a sustained period of high traffic from around 7pm to 
10pm.  But what’s the deal with 8pm?  Must be kids turning in their 
homework?



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Re: [AFMUG] traffic often spikes up at 8pm

[Adam Moffett]

Looking at two 10gig pipes, the one with more load has a smooth curve.  
The other has a little under a gig of traffic, but does have a pretty 
pronounced spike.in this case at 9pm rather than 8pm (which 
interestingly would be the same real time as you since I'm EST and I 
believe you're central).


My guess is the one with more load has a larger "sample size" of users 
so it's more difficult for the normal curve to be altered by 
outliers.maybe there's that a cluster of people like at 9 eastern / 
8 central.


Just a guess.  I'm not going to burn any more time dwelling on it.


On 11/20/2019 10:18 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


We still see a step up around 4pm when the kids get home from school.  
The dip at 6pm seems to have gone away, I guess people stream video 
during dinner now.


But I’m puzzled by a spike we usually see at 8pm.  Is this just a 
fluke?  Or is there some 5 minute TV show people are all watching at 
exactly 8pm?


I’m used to a sustained period of high traffic from around 7pm to 
10pm.  But what’s the deal with 8pm?  Must be kids turning in their 
homework?



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Re: [AFMUG] traffic often spikes up at 8pm

[Nate Burke]

It's just strange that it's a single peak, usually not more than 5 or 10 
minutes.  I see similar traffic patterns to Ken.  Unless 8pm is when 
people stop watching streams at 8:05 and go to bed, and others turn on 
streams at 7:55 to start watching.


On 11/21/2019 9:28 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

My peak has always been about 8PM, at least as far back as I can recall.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 11:24 PM Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:


8pm is when a lot of kids make a transition, either to bed, or to
shower, the phones go on to check things or listen to music, my
guess anyway, its what happens here

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 9:52 PM Cassidy B. Larson mailto:c...@infowest.com>> wrote:

HQ maybe?


On Nov 20, 2019, at 8:18 PM, Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:

We still see a step up around 4pm when the kids get home from
school.  The dip at 6pm seems to have gone away, I guess
people stream video during dinner now.
But I’m puzzled by a spike we usually see at 8pm. Is this
just a fluke?  Or is there some 5 minute TV show people are
all watching at exactly 8pm?
I’m used to a sustained period of high traffic from around
7pm to 10pm.  But what’s the deal with 8pm?  Must be kids
turning in their homework?
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Re: [AFMUG] traffic often spikes up at 8pm

[Josh Luthman]

My peak has always been about 8PM, at least as far back as I can recall.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 11:24 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> 8pm is when a lot of kids make a transition, either to bed, or to shower,
> the phones go on to check things or listen to music, my guess anyway, its
> what happens here
>
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 9:52 PM Cassidy B. Larson  wrote:
>
>> HQ maybe?
>>
>> On Nov 20, 2019, at 8:18 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>>
>> We still see a step up around 4pm when the kids get home from school.
>> The dip at 6pm seems to have gone away, I guess people stream video during
>> dinner now.
>>
>> But I’m puzzled by a spike we usually see at 8pm.  Is this just a fluke?
>> Or is there some 5 minute TV show people are all watching at exactly 8pm?
>>
>> I’m used to a sustained period of high traffic from around 7pm to 10pm.
>> But what’s the deal with 8pm?  Must be kids turning in their homework?
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Re: [AFMUG] MPLS

[Adam Moffett]

Are those pre-owned / refurb?

On 11/21/2019 12:57 AM, Cassidy B. Larson wrote:
I’m able to get 10 Cisco ASR920s for under 10k from Cisco.  Just 
depends on who your account team is, and how much business you do. 
 Just like Streakwave, Winncom, etc.



On Nov 20, 2019, at 8:10 PM, Sterling Jacobson > wrote:


Uh, yeah.
$10k doesn’t buy me enough functionality.
Would need 10 of those.
*From:*AF >*On Behalf Of*Josh Baird

*Sent:*Wednesday, November 20, 2019 6:54 PM
*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] MPLS
Why? Price?
On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:53 PM Sterling Jacobson 
mailto:sterl...@avative.net>> wrote:


No thanks.
*From:*AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>>*On Behalf Of*Gino A. Villarini
*Sent:*Wednesday, November 20, 2019 5:12 PM
*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] MPLS
Time to grow up… Juniper ACX or Cisco ASR920
*From:*AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> on behalf of Sterling Jacobson
mailto:sterl...@avative.net>>
*Reply-To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Date:*Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 4:10 PM
*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] MPLS
Well put.
Capacity/speed is an issue with me, so I think I introduced some
possible bottlenecks above 4.5Gbps using MPLS/VPLS in my own
network which is Mikrotik.
VPLS endpoints I don’t think were/are hardware offloaded, so
required some great CPU capacity at the edge and core for large
transport.
I also think I had MTU issues with so many layers of “layer2”
stuff going on inside and outside of MPLS tunnels, native
interfaces, VPLS endpoints, bridges and VRRP interfaces along
with VLAN at some endpoints.
However, with the right equipment (not Mikrotik) MPLS is fully
capable and large networks use them to diversely traverse
redundant paths back to a central core.
My problem also was geo-diverse BGP cores to different providers
as stated below.
I was running EVERYTHING on a Mikrotik 1072 CCR, lol!
It still drives me crazy hunting down issues where I still have
MPLS/OSPF/BGP/VRRP/VLAN on one device across multiple interfaces,
lol!
*From:*AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>>*On Behalf Of*Dennis Burgess via AF
*Sent:*Wednesday, November 20, 2019 12:56 PM
*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Cc:*Dennis Burgess mailto:dmburg...@linktechs.net>>
*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] MPLS
You can, its up to you.
*Is routing faster on MikroTik by using MPLS/VPLS?*No
*Do you gain extra capacity by reducing the router load per
packet by using MPLS?* Yes, think looking at 4-bytes of data vs
40.  Is it 10 fold increase, no but you get the point.
*What is the big deal about MPLS without VPLS? *Just that it does
get you a bit of extra capacity. Bout it.
*Why does everyone want to run VPLS?* VPLS gets you the IP and
subnet savings.  You do need to design your core network
correctly to handle this.  If you have a single core router and
all of your tunnels go to that, then yes if it goes down yes your
tunnels are down, but may of our customers have to have
redundancy, so multiple edges, connected to multiple cores,
connected to multiple VPLS termination boxes, connected to
multiple PPPoE servers. Etc.   The core is VERY robust, but the
general network is not.  This also does not work very well if
your have multiple geographically diverse BGP feeds, i.e.
everything goes back to the datacenter and that’s where it is,
great, but otherwise, it gets to the point that it not worth the
effort.
*L2VPNs? *Weill there are a few customers that prefer them, but
in all honestly there is better, more secure, and faster
protocols out there.  Keep in mind that L2VPNs are fine if all of
the customers are on your network, but they seldom are, so you
will need a plan for those guys as well.  My questions is why do
you build your network to deliver something that people don’t
want, a layer 2 network connection.  If you are delivering Pipes
then sure, but you have to have the capacity and availability to
do so.  Most Wisps, not all, don’t have this figured out.  99% of
the time, they can make more money by providing a managed L3
solution than L2 anyways.
**
**
*Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium
ePMP Certified*
Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
*Office*: 314-735-0270  Website:http://www.linktechs.net

Create Wireless Coverage’s withwww.towercoverage.com

Re: [AFMUG] MPLS

[Gino A. Villarini]

The other option we are looking into is the DCSG (Dissagregated Cell Site 
Gateway) Project a initiative by the telecom Infrastructure Project with many 
hw and sw vendor following the open source model.

https://telecominfraproject.com/oopt/


From: AF  on behalf of Sterling Jacobson 

Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Date: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 8:53 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS

No thanks.

From: AF  On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 5:12 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS

Time to grow up… Juniper ACX or Cisco ASR920

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> on behalf of 
Sterling Jacobson mailto:sterl...@avative.net>>
Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Date: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 4:10 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS

Well put.

Capacity/speed is an issue with me, so I think I introduced some possible 
bottlenecks above 4.5Gbps using MPLS/VPLS in my own network which is Mikrotik.
VPLS endpoints I don’t think were/are hardware offloaded, so required some 
great CPU capacity at the edge and core for large transport.
I also think I had MTU issues with so many layers of “layer2” stuff going on 
inside and outside of MPLS tunnels, native interfaces, VPLS endpoints, bridges 
and VRRP interfaces along with VLAN at some endpoints.

However, with the right equipment (not Mikrotik) MPLS is fully capable and 
large networks use them to diversely traverse redundant paths back to a central 
core.

My problem also was geo-diverse BGP cores to different providers as stated 
below.
I was running EVERYTHING on a Mikrotik 1072 CCR, lol!
It still drives me crazy hunting down issues where I still have 
MPLS/OSPF/BGP/VRRP/VLAN on one device across multiple interfaces, lol!

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Dennis Burgess via AF
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 12:56 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Cc: Dennis Burgess mailto:dmburg...@linktechs.net>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS

You can, its up to you.

Is routing faster on MikroTik by using MPLS/VPLS? No
Do you gain extra capacity by reducing the router load per packet by using 
MPLS?  Yes, think looking at 4-bytes of data vs 40.  Is it 10 fold increase, no 
but you get the point.
What is the big deal about MPLS without VPLS?  Just that it does get you a bit 
of extra capacity.  Bout it.
Why does everyone want to run VPLS?  VPLS gets you the IP and subnet savings.  
You do need to design your core network correctly to handle this.  If you have 
a single core router and all of your tunnels go to that, then yes if it goes 
down yes your tunnels are down, but may of our customers have to have 
redundancy, so multiple edges, connected to multiple cores, connected to 
multiple VPLS termination boxes, connected to multiple PPPoE servers.  Etc.   
The core is VERY robust, but the general network is not.  This also does not 
work very well if your have multiple geographically diverse BGP feeds, i.e. 
everything goes back to the datacenter and that’s where it is, great, but 
otherwise, it gets to the point that it not worth the effort.
L2VPNs?  Weill there are a few customers that prefer them, but in all honestly 
there is better, more secure, and faster protocols out there.  Keep in mind 
that L2VPNs are fine if all of the customers are on your network, but they 
seldom are, so you will need a plan for those guys as well.  My questions is 
why do you build your network to deliver something that people don’t want, a 
layer 2 network connection.  If you are delivering Pipes then sure, but you 
have to have the capacity and availability to do so.  Most Wisps, not all, 
don’t have this figured out.  99% of the time, they can make more money by 
providing a managed L3 solution than L2 anyways.



[LTI-Full_175px]
Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP Certified
Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
Office: 314-735-0270  Website: 
http://www.linktechs.net
Create Wireless Coverage’s with 
www.towercoverage.com

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 1:17 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS


So do you tunnel everything back to the core and then do "router on a stick" ?
On 11/20/2019 2:14 PM, Gino A. Villarini wrote:
Yeap VPLS is where is at…

VPLS tunnels to the towers, CORE routing + L2VPN to customers( Enterprise, 
Wholesale)




Gino Villarini
Founder/President
@gvillarini
t: 787.273.4143 Ext. 204
m:
[Image removed by sender. aeronet-logo]
[Image removed by sender. 

Re: [AFMUG] MPLS

[Gino A. Villarini]

And theres ebay..

From: AF  on behalf of Cassidy Larson 

Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Date: Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 1:58 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS

I’m able to get 10 Cisco ASR920s for under 10k from Cisco.  Just depends on who 
your account team is, and how much business you do.  Just like Streakwave, 
Winncom, etc.



On Nov 20, 2019, at 8:10 PM, Sterling Jacobson 
mailto:sterl...@avative.net>> wrote:

Uh, yeah.

$10k doesn’t buy me enough functionality.
Would need 10 of those.

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Josh Baird
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 6:54 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS

Why?  Price?

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:53 PM Sterling Jacobson 
mailto:sterl...@avative.net>> wrote:
No thanks.

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Gino A. Villarini
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 5:12 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS

Time to grow up… Juniper ACX or Cisco ASR920

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> on behalf of 
Sterling Jacobson mailto:sterl...@avative.net>>
Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Date: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 4:10 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS

Well put.

Capacity/speed is an issue with me, so I think I introduced some possible 
bottlenecks above 4.5Gbps using MPLS/VPLS in my own network which is Mikrotik.
VPLS endpoints I don’t think were/are hardware offloaded, so required some 
great CPU capacity at the edge and core for large transport.
I also think I had MTU issues with so many layers of “layer2” stuff going on 
inside and outside of MPLS tunnels, native interfaces, VPLS endpoints, bridges 
and VRRP interfaces along with VLAN at some endpoints.

However, with the right equipment (not Mikrotik) MPLS is fully capable and 
large networks use them to diversely traverse redundant paths back to a central 
core.

My problem also was geo-diverse BGP cores to different providers as stated 
below.
I was running EVERYTHING on a Mikrotik 1072 CCR, lol!
It still drives me crazy hunting down issues where I still have 
MPLS/OSPF/BGP/VRRP/VLAN on one device across multiple interfaces, lol!

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Dennis Burgess via AF
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 12:56 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Cc: Dennis Burgess mailto:dmburg...@linktechs.net>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MPLS

You can, its up to you.

Is routing faster on MikroTik by using MPLS/VPLS? No
Do you gain extra capacity by reducing the router load per packet by using 
MPLS?  Yes, think looking at 4-bytes of data vs 40.  Is it 10 fold increase, no 
but you get the point.
What is the big deal about MPLS without VPLS?  Just that it does get you a bit 
of extra capacity.  Bout it.
Why does everyone want to run VPLS?  VPLS gets you the IP and subnet savings.  
You do need to design your core network correctly to handle this.  If you have 
a single core router and all of your tunnels go to that, then yes if it goes 
down yes your tunnels are down, but may of our customers have to have 
redundancy, so multiple edges, connected to multiple cores, connected to 
multiple VPLS termination boxes, connected to multiple PPPoE servers.  Etc.   
The core is VERY robust, but the general network is not.  This also does not 
work very well if your have multiple geographically diverse BGP feeds, i.e. 
everything goes back to the datacenter and that’s where it is, great, but 
otherwise, it gets to the point that it not worth the effort.
L2VPNs?  Weill there are a few customers that prefer them, but in all honestly 
there is better, more secure, and faster protocols out there.  Keep in mind 
that L2VPNs are fine if all of the customers are on your network, but they 
seldom are, so you will need a plan for those guys as well.  My questions is 
why do you build your network to deliver something that people don’t want, a 
layer 2 network connection.  If you are delivering Pipes then sure, but you 
have to have the capacity and availability to do so.  Most Wisps, not all, 
don’t have this figured out.  99% of the time, they can make more money by 
providing a managed L3 solution than L2 anyways.




Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP Certified
Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
Office: 314-735-0270  Website: 
http://www.linktechs.net
Create Wireless Coverage’s with 
www.towercoverage.com

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 1:17 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: