[AFMUG] Custom fiber cable?
I'm sure you have all seen the coax cable exeed uses with the extra copper on outside of jacked for power.. Dose anyone one know is it's possible to order fiber with 2 copper wires on out side of jacket in its own jacket? — Sent from Mailbox
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Regarding #7... don't use an omni. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:20:20 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
3 is *NOT* licensed. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:57:42 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money? /blockquote
Re: [AFMUG] ePMP Radius
You may be chasing your tail. Last I knew, several radius attributes weren't supported in ePMP. It's been almost a year ago since I looked into it though. Perhaps more attribute support has been added in software releases since then. I don't recall seeing any mention of attributes in the release notes though. -Patrick On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:17 PM, Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr. via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I am having issues with Radius. I am using the values that the user manual specifies in my dictionary file and I can get the subscriber to authenticate and set the bandwidth, but I cannot get the Vlan settings to work. Dictionary values ATTRIBUTE Cambium-Canopy-VLIGVID 21 integer #VLAN Ingress VLAN ID ATTRIBUTE Cambium-Canopy-VLMGVID 22 integer #VLAN Management VLAN ID ATTRIBUTE Cambium-Canopy-ULMB 26 integer #Max Burst Uplink Rate ATTRIBUTE Cambium-Canopy-DLMB 27 integer #Max Burst Downlink Rate In my radius reply for the user, I am setting Cambium-Canopy-VLIGVID:=50 and Cambium-Canopy-VLMGVID:=3. I am reaching the AP on Vlan 3 but I cannot see the SM in the wireless monitor though the AP homepage shows it registered. Can anyone point me in the correct direction? Gilbert
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
Re: [AFMUG] DFS issues
If your not near a radar do 4ft vertical separation on 5.2's make sure they are not seeing anything UBNT running in 5,2 — Sent from Mailbox On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 8:21 PM, Craig House via Af af@afmug.com wrote: We are starting to see a lot more DFS detections on 5.2 AP's. We never used to have this problem. Recent upgrades to firmware seem to be making this a more sensitive detection. I have one tower tonight with 6 new FSK sectors that are on abcabc layout. The sectors in this layout have radar detection on this tower at various times in the last 20 minutes on both sector c radios and on the second sector B. I am also seeing this happen on towers where we have recently replaced connectorized AP's due to lightining damage where it was not a problem before. we are running 13.1.3 on all of these radios. What are my options here. I cant just stop using 5.2 for APs??? Craig
Re: [AFMUG] DFS issues
We had problems with p10 radios and false dfs detections. Try a p9 radio if you can still get some. --- Original Message --- From: timothy steele via Af[mailto:af@afmug.com] Sent: 10/18/2014 9:55:08 AM To : af@afmug.com Cc : af@afmug.com Subject : RE: Re: [AFMUG] DFS issues If your not near a radar do 4ft vertical separation on 5.2's make sure they are not seeing anything UBNT running in 5,2 — Sent from Mailbox On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 8:21 PM, Craig House via Af af@afmug.com wrote: We are starting to see a lot more DFS detections on 5.2 AP's. We never used to have this problem. Recent upgrades to firmware seem to be making this a more sensitive detection. I have one tower tonight with 6 new FSK sectors that are on abcabc layout. The sectors in this layout have radar detection on this tower at various times in the last 20 minutes on both sector c radios and on the second sector B. I am also seeing this happen on towers where we have recently replaced connectorized AP's due to lightining damage where it was not a problem before. we are running 13.1.3 on all of these radios. What are my options here. I cant just stop using 5.2 for APs??? Craig
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Kurt, I have some comments inline. From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 2:20 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. The BIGGEST factor on ePMP (or any 802.11) is quality installs EVERY time. You cannot have borderline customers (lots of retransmissions in the stats) or you will really hurt the APs ability to do its thing. This is not new to 802.11, but very different from regular Canopy gear. You have to raise your standards of what is acceptable from a SNR and link test capability. Our standard is evolving on this, but if we have a radio performing at less than 50% of maximum capacity, we don’t accept it. We do whatever it takes to get better LOS (or NLOS). 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. Sync is coming Cambium has promised. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. Agreed. Remote SA is needed. eDedect does a pretty good job and picking things up and we use Mikrotik routers inside the home to help diagnose Scan/Snoop whats going on inside the home. This has been HUGE for us. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's. Agreed. Though we manage burst / sustained at the head-end 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. Agreed. If the PCs would cache the Java libraries that come down to the PC, I think they would solve the problem. I have suggested that o Cambium. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... hmmm… not had an issue… our installers say they are easy. The LEDs’ get you very close, then someone else tweaks them (another tech onsite or remotely from the office. But, yes, the interface could be quicker. 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. This has fixed in later firmware versions. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. We have customers getting 110Mbit aggregate on their link test in the field (UDP of course). There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.comhttp://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
Re: [AFMUG] DFS issues
get p9 ap's they don't use dfs. the only thing I can use in my area. roland We are starting to see a lot more DFS detections on 5.2 AP's. We never used to have this problem. Recent upgrades to firmware seem to be making this a more sensitive detection. I have one tower tonight with 6 new FSK sectors that are on abcabc layout. The sectors in this layout have radar detection on this tower at various times in the last 20 minutes on both sector c radios and on the second sector B. I am also seeing this happen on towers where we have recently replaced connectorized AP's due to lightining damage where it was not a problem before. we are running 13.1.3 on all of these radios. What aremy options here. I cant just stop using 5.2 for APs??? Craig
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Or the magic words “up to”? Like crossing your fingers behind your back. From: Forrest Christian (List Account) via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 9:35 AM To: af Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought If your concern is raw speed alone, then you're right. On the other hand, if you can't figure out how to build a winning value proposition against some of the most hated companies in the country, then you are doing something wrong. The wireless technology today will get you to the point where most customers won't see a difference in speed for their typical usage. On Oct 17, 2014 4:50 PM, Chris Wright via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I don't disagree with your sentiment, but cable companies are offering stupid-fast plans now thanks to Google Fiber in more and more markets. Comcast is doubling speeds for free in some of their markets now. I doubt WISPs will ever win over the average residential customer who is eligible for cable and knows it (unless they're leaving on principle or something like that). Chris Wright Velociter Wireless -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of cstanners--- via Af Sent: Friday, October 17, 2014 4:43 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] Random thought It's interesting that we needed Ubiquiti to push forward the industry by creating a high-end/high-capacity backhaul at a very low price, and Cambium to do the same by creating a wifi-chip-based/value-priced PtMP and mid-capacity PtP system that has GPS sync and seems to work very well. A few years ago when Canopy was stuck at 14mbit FSK, I was wondering how the WISP industry would survive. Now with Canopy450 and those more cost-effective options, things are looking very competitive against DSL, and even some cable.
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Those stupid fast speeds sure do make it harder to get face time with potential customers however. Cable COs are making 25 Mbps the new base. PC Blaze Broadband On October 18, 2014 10:51:47 AM EDT, Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Or the magic words “up to”? Like crossing your fingers behind your back. From: Forrest Christian (List Account) via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 9:35 AM To: af Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought If your concern is raw speed alone, then you're right. On the other hand, if you can't figure out how to build a winning value proposition against some of the most hated companies in the country, then you are doing something wrong. The wireless technology today will get you to the point where most customers won't see a difference in speed for their typical usage. On Oct 17, 2014 4:50 PM, Chris Wright via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I don't disagree with your sentiment, but cable companies are offering stupid-fast plans now thanks to Google Fiber in more and more markets. Comcast is doubling speeds for free in some of their markets now. I doubt WISPs will ever win over the average residential customer who is eligible for cable and knows it (unless they're leaving on principle or something like that). Chris Wright Velociter Wireless -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of cstanners--- via Af Sent: Friday, October 17, 2014 4:43 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] Random thought It's interesting that we needed Ubiquiti to push forward the industry by creating a high-end/high-capacity backhaul at a very low price, and Cambium to do the same by creating a wifi-chip-based/value-priced PtMP and mid-capacity PtP system that has GPS sync and seems to work very well. A few years ago when Canopy was stuck at 14mbit FSK, I was wondering how the WISP industry would survive. Now with Canopy450 and those more cost-effective options, things are looking very competitive against DSL, and even some cable.
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
On 10/18/14, 7:57 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote: Those stupid fast speeds sure do make it harder to get face time with potential customers however. Cable COs are making 25 Mbps the new base. The base is 60 meg here. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money? /blockquote /blockquote
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Afford/justify. Either way I pretty much agree. And I was an omni fanboy. ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.commailto:tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.comhttp://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.comhttp://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405tel:419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110tel:419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
The four sectors are still cheaper than one 450 on an omni. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:41:32 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which problem is easier to fix? You deployed an omni and take rate has been phenomenal and you need more capacity? Or you deployed 4 sectors and only have 5 subs between them? Well, I guess the second one, if the answer is decommission the site and redeploy the equipment. From: Tyler Treat via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:28 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Afford/justify. Either way I pretty much agree. And I was an omni fanboy. ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Huh? are you putting the cheap connectorized CPE on them or the $500 gps sync AP on them? Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: The four sectors are still cheaper than one 450 on an omni. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:41:32 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which problem is easier to fix? You deployed an omni and take rate has been phenomenal and you need more capacity? Or you deployed 4 sectors and only have 5 subs between them? Well, I guess the second one, if the answer is decommission the site and redeploy the equipment. From: Tyler Treat via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:28 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Afford/justify. Either way I pretty much agree. And I was an omni fanboy. ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
On 10/18/14, 8:26 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: And an amazing price for 6 months or for 12 months? Yeah I pay $29 for 60 meg and actually get it (typically 66). No bundle required. I can't serve myself for free but for 30 bucks I'm not too heartbroken. The upload still blows at 4 meg though. I don't even bother with residential, honestly. Businesses are easier to deal with, especially the ones doing cloud stuff and suffering with the 4 meg upload. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Also, Money sense is a factor. If you are determined to do it cheap then go for it. Keep in mind happy customers means faster ROI. If you are looking at a dense population IE Metro then spend the time and money to deploy a system that will scale well and grow as you add tons of subs without having to add more aps and worry about if you are interfering with your self. The 450 is the simple answer for me. 2 cents On 10/17/2014 4:21 PM, Matt Jenkins via Af wrote: Depends on customer density per AP. If you have low (25) density, I would recommend ePMP. Otherwise I would recommend 450. Matthew Jenkins SmarterBroadband m...@sbbinc.net 530.272.4000 On 10/17/2014 02:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money? --
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Good point about business and upload speed. Even businesses with people working from home via VPN and video Skype. I have a guy uploading documents to his server at a datacenter, he is crying that I'm only giving him 15M upload, he wants 25M. I have a professional photographer who stores his photos in RAW format and uses cloud backup. 4M upload is probably adequate for most people, but let's face it, how many people really need 60M download? If it's all about the numbers, why ignore upload. Probably something we should stress more in advertising. -Original Message- From: Seth Mattinen via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 11:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought On 10/18/14, 8:26 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: And an amazing price for 6 months or for 12 months? Yeah I pay $29 for 60 meg and actually get it (typically 66). No bundle required. I can't serve myself for free but for 30 bucks I'm not too heartbroken. The upload still blows at 4 meg though. I don't even bother with residential, honestly. Businesses are easier to deal with, especially the ones doing cloud stuff and suffering with the 4 meg upload. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Rory- can your model be replicated on outside of suburbia? Aside from that, this really all goes back to your personal business philosophy. Are you trying to provide the absolute very best service possible - or - are you after the low hanging fruit? Get as many people as you can easily, and extract as much cash as possible from them. Somewhere in between the two? ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: We don't advertise speeds at all. We just say that you won't be able to tell a difference between our system and Comcast/Centurylink. We will also guarantee that your video will not buffer. 50% growth last year and we expect at least that this year. Rory -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 9:40 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Good point about business and upload speed. Even businesses with people working from home via VPN and video Skype. I have a guy uploading documents to his server at a datacenter, he is crying that I'm only giving him 15M upload, he wants 25M. I have a professional photographer who stores his photos in RAW format and uses cloud backup. 4M upload is probably adequate for most people, but let's face it, how many people really need 60M download? If it's all about the numbers, why ignore upload. Probably something we should stress more in advertising. -Original Message- From: Seth Mattinen via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 11:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought On 10/18/14, 8:26 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: And an amazing price for 6 months or for 12 months? Yeah I pay $29 for 60 meg and actually get it (typically 66). No bundle required. I can't serve myself for free but for 30 bucks I'm not too heartbroken. The upload still blows at 4 meg though. I don't even bother with residential, honestly. Businesses are easier to deal with, especially the ones doing cloud stuff and suffering with the 4 meg upload. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Interesting. -Original Message- From: Rory Conaway via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 11:53 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought We don't advertise speeds at all. We just say that you won't be able to tell a difference between our system and Comcast/Centurylink. We will also guarantee that your video will not buffer. 50% growth last year and we expect at least that this year. Rory -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 9:40 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Good point about business and upload speed. Even businesses with people working from home via VPN and video Skype. I have a guy uploading documents to his server at a datacenter, he is crying that I'm only giving him 15M upload, he wants 25M. I have a professional photographer who stores his photos in RAW format and uses cloud backup. 4M upload is probably adequate for most people, but let's face it, how many people really need 60M download? If it's all about the numbers, why ignore upload. Probably something we should stress more in advertising. -Original Message- From: Seth Mattinen via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 11:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought On 10/18/14, 8:26 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: And an amazing price for 6 months or for 12 months? Yeah I pay $29 for 60 meg and actually get it (typically 66). No bundle required. I can't serve myself for free but for 30 bucks I'm not too heartbroken. The upload still blows at 4 meg though. I don't even bother with residential, honestly. Businesses are easier to deal with, especially the ones doing cloud stuff and suffering with the 4 meg upload. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Rory, Aaron andI split the sessions this year. I went to the technical ones, and he went to the business ones (which is how we divide our focus inside the company anyway, based on company role and experience). Aaron was... blown away when he went to the 500-2000 sub session and the people on the panel didn't know their gross monthly revenue. Aaron can at least tell you per week, and often per day, that figure. We have been competing against the ILEC, CLEC/Cable Co, and two other WISPs for 8 years as a company, yet we still have seen on average a 30% growth year after year because of our business model. IMO, Chuck, Gino, Nathan, and others do very well from what I have heard/seen when it comes to explaining the larger (~3000+) sub count businesses, but it seems like there is a huge technical and business knowledge gap when you go from ~ 500-2000 subs. I am hopeful that next year yourself and others can give a detailed report at the next show of how different businesses in different areas have been effective at fighting off the 800 lb gorillas. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 10:15 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: My philosophy as a business owner is to make the most money possible based on an ethical, moral, and legal foundation. At the same time, my competitors have the same profit margin goal but prioritize legal first. When competing against multi-billion dollar companies, you can't out-market them and when you become an annoyance, they just lower their price to drive you out of business. So we used price as the door opener. When CenturyLink found out we were offering pre-paid at $18 per month (they have to pay for the full year), they dropped their service to the same price. At $18 per month, you either have to have very low costs or limited service needs. Since few people need more than 5Mbps and can't tell the difference between 5Mbps and 150Mbps, we tell them if they can tell the difference, we will refund their service. I've lost 1 client in 7 years and that was before 802.11N. They aren't stupid and most customers who check see between 6-20Mbps. Customers who are part of our current expansion are seeing 40Mbps and should be at 50Mbps over the next week or so. That being said, times have changed and we will be offering new options such as higher speed video streaming packages for $6 per month more, higher security options, etc... Rory -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tyler Treat via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:04 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Rory- can your model be replicated on outside of suburbia? Aside from that, this really all goes back to your personal business philosophy. Are you trying to provide the absolute very best service possible - or - are you after the low hanging fruit? Get as many people as you can easily, and extract as much cash as possible from them. Somewhere in between the two? ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: We don't advertise speeds at all. We just say that you won't be able to tell a difference between our system and Comcast/Centurylink. We will also guarantee that your video will not buffer. 50% growth last year and we expect at least that this year. Rory -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 9:40 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Good point about business and upload speed. Even businesses with people working from home via VPN and video Skype. I have a guy uploading documents to his server at a datacenter, he is crying that I'm only giving him 15M upload, he wants 25M. I have a professional photographer who stores his photos in RAW format and uses cloud backup. 4M upload is probably adequate for most people, but let's face it, how many people really need 60M download? If it's all about the numbers, why ignore upload. Probably something we should stress more in advertising. -Original Message- From: Seth Mattinen via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 11:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought On 10/18/14, 8:26 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: And an amazing price for 6 months or for 12 months? Yeah I pay $29 for 60 meg and actually get it (typically 66). No bundle required. I can't serve myself for free but for 30 bucks I'm not too heartbroken. The upload still blows at 4 meg though. I don't even bother with residential, honestly. Businesses are easier to deal with, especially the ones doing cloud stuff and suffering with the 4 meg upload. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
I'm surprised CenturyLink is able to match prices, usually the big telcos are locked into statewide tariffs or maybe that's not the obstacle anymore but they want to have one price over their entire service area for national marketing, billboards, website, flyers, etc. Any idea how they are able to be nimble enough to offer super low prices in just one area to squash a local competitor? Or is this just something they offer once an existing customer calls to cancel and gets routed to the retention department? -Original Message- From: Rory Conaway via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:15 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought My philosophy as a business owner is to make the most money possible based on an ethical, moral, and legal foundation. At the same time, my competitors have the same profit margin goal but prioritize legal first. When competing against multi-billion dollar companies, you can't out-market them and when you become an annoyance, they just lower their price to drive you out of business. So we used price as the door opener. When CenturyLink found out we were offering pre-paid at $18 per month (they have to pay for the full year), they dropped their service to the same price. At $18 per month, you either have to have very low costs or limited service needs. Since few people need more than 5Mbps and can't tell the difference between 5Mbps and 150Mbps, we tell them if they can tell the difference, we will refund their service. I've lost 1 client in 7 years and that was before 802.11N. They aren't stupid and most customers who check see between 6-20Mbps. Customers who are part of our current expansion are seeing 40Mbps and should be at 50Mbps over the next week or so. That being said, times have changed and we will be offering new options such as higher speed video streaming packages for $6 per month more, higher security options, etc... Rory -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tyler Treat via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:04 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Rory- can your model be replicated on outside of suburbia? Aside from that, this really all goes back to your personal business philosophy. Are you trying to provide the absolute very best service possible - or - are you after the low hanging fruit? Get as many people as you can easily, and extract as much cash as possible from them. Somewhere in between the two? ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: We don't advertise speeds at all. We just say that you won't be able to tell a difference between our system and Comcast/Centurylink. We will also guarantee that your video will not buffer. 50% growth last year and we expect at least that this year. Rory -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 9:40 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Good point about business and upload speed. Even businesses with people working from home via VPN and video Skype. I have a guy uploading documents to his server at a datacenter, he is crying that I'm only giving him 15M upload, he wants 25M. I have a professional photographer who stores his photos in RAW format and uses cloud backup. 4M upload is probably adequate for most people, but let's face it, how many people really need 60M download? If it's all about the numbers, why ignore upload. Probably something we should stress more in advertising. -Original Message- From: Seth Mattinen via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 11:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought On 10/18/14, 8:26 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: And an amazing price for 6 months or for 12 months? Yeah I pay $29 for 60 meg and actually get it (typically 66). No bundle required. I can't serve myself for free but for 30 bucks I'm not too heartbroken. The upload still blows at 4 meg though. I don't even bother with residential, honestly. Businesses are easier to deal with, especially the ones doing cloud stuff and suffering with the 4 meg upload. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Yep and if you give me a hard time I will beat you with a bowling pin. From: Ken Hohhof via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:15 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons But there’s the stages of where WISPs have historically gotten their customers: 1) People getting Internet for the first time 2) People switching from dialup 3) People switching from DSL 4) People switching from satellite 5) People switching from mobile hotspots 6) People switching from other WISPs who did things on the cheap I guess stage 7 would be deploy fiber and drink everybody’s milkshake. From: Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:27 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Not sure. What I do know is they also sent door-to-door sales people in a couple of MDU's right after we installed and a bunch of their customers shut them off. For some reason, they seem to be pretty nimble down here. When our customers in the residential market started shutting them off, they started offering the $18 fee. I was standing in the middle of a presentation in WISPA when I got the text message on this. Rory -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:41 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought I'm surprised CenturyLink is able to match prices, usually the big telcos are locked into statewide tariffs or maybe that's not the obstacle anymore but they want to have one price over their entire service area for national marketing, billboards, website, flyers, etc. Any idea how they are able to be nimble enough to offer super low prices in just one area to squash a local competitor? Or is this just something they offer once an existing customer calls to cancel and gets routed to the retention department? -Original Message- From: Rory Conaway via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:15 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought My philosophy as a business owner is to make the most money possible based on an ethical, moral, and legal foundation. At the same time, my competitors have the same profit margin goal but prioritize legal first. When competing against multi-billion dollar companies, you can't out-market them and when you become an annoyance, they just lower their price to drive you out of business. So we used price as the door opener. When CenturyLink found out we were offering pre-paid at $18 per month (they have to pay for the full year), they dropped their service to the same price. At $18 per month, you either have to have very low costs or limited service needs. Since few people need more than 5Mbps and can't tell the difference between 5Mbps and 150Mbps, we tell them if they can tell the difference, we will refund their service. I've lost 1 client in 7 years and that was before 802.11N. They aren't stupid and most customers who check see between 6-20Mbps. Customers who are part of our current expansion are seeing 40Mbps and should be at 50Mbps over the next week or so. That being said, times have changed and we will be offering new options such as higher speed video streaming packages for $6 per month more, higher security options, etc... Rory -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tyler Treat via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:04 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Rory- can your model be replicated on outside of suburbia? Aside from that, this really all goes back to your personal business philosophy. Are you trying to provide the absolute very best service possible - or - are you after the low hanging fruit? Get as many people as you can easily, and extract as much cash as possible from them. Somewhere in between the two? ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: We don't advertise speeds at all. We just say that you won't be able to tell a difference between our system and Comcast/Centurylink. We will also guarantee that your video will not buffer. 50% growth last year and we expect at least that this year. Rory -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 9:40 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Good point about business and upload speed. Even businesses with people working from home via VPN and video Skype. I have a guy uploading documents to his server at a datacenter, he is crying that I'm only giving him 15M upload, he wants 25M. I have a professional photographer who stores his photos in RAW format and uses cloud backup. 4M upload is probably adequate for most people, but let's face it, how many people really need 60M download? If it's all about the numbers, why ignore upload. Probably something we should stress more in advertising. -Original Message- From: Seth Mattinen via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 11:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought On 10/18/14, 8:26 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: And an amazing price for 6 months or for 12 months? Yeah I pay $29 for 60 meg and actually get it (typically 66). No bundle required. I can't serve myself for free but for 30 bucks I'm not too heartbroken. The upload still blows at 4 meg though. I don't even bother with residential, honestly. Businesses are easier to deal with, especially the ones doing cloud stuff and suffering with the
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Read my next article, Chapter 52, where I actually cover some of this but more on the technical side. It should be published by the end of the week. I was also on one of those panels last year but had different ones this year. I'm working with another startup that is at 600 subs right now and expanding like crazy. Here is an advertisement we are posting in the local paper November 1 for the next 6 months in an area with 2000 homes. It's an over 55 area, hence the picture. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:35 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Rory, Aaron and I split the sessions this year. I went to the technical ones, and he went to the business ones (which is how we divide our focus inside the company anyway, based on company role and experience). Aaron was... blown away when he went to the 500-2000 sub session and the people on the panel didn't know their gross monthly revenue. Aaron can at least tell you per week, and often per day, that figure. We have been competing against the ILEC, CLEC/Cable Co, and two other WISPs for 8 years as a company, yet we still have seen on average a 30% growth year after year because of our business model. IMO, Chuck, Gino, Nathan, and others do very well from what I have heard/seen when it comes to explaining the larger (~3000+) sub count businesses, but it seems like there is a huge technical and business knowledge gap when you go from ~ 500-2000 subs. I am hopeful that next year yourself and others can give a detailed report at the next show of how different businesses in different areas have been effective at fighting off the 800 lb gorillas. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 10:15 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: My philosophy as a business owner is to make the most money possible based on an ethical, moral, and legal foundation. At the same time, my competitors have the same profit margin goal but prioritize legal first. When competing against multi-billion dollar companies, you can't out-market them and when you become an annoyance, they just lower their price to drive you out of business. So we used price as the door opener. When CenturyLink found out we were offering pre-paid at $18 per month (they have to pay for the full year), they dropped their service to the same price. At $18 per month, you either have to have very low costs or limited service needs. Since few people need more than 5Mbps and can't tell the difference between 5Mbps and 150Mbps, we tell them if they can tell the difference, we will refund their service. I've lost 1 client in 7 years and that was before 802.11N. They aren't stupid and most customers who check see between 6-20Mbps. Customers who are part of our current expansion are seeing 40Mbps and should be at 50Mbps over the next week or so. That being said, times have changed and we will be offering new options such as higher speed video streaming packages for $6 per month more, higher security options, etc... Rory -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tyler Treat via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:04 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Rory- can your model be replicated on outside of suburbia? Aside from that, this really all goes back to your personal business philosophy. Are you trying to provide the absolute very best service possible - or - are you after the low hanging fruit? Get as many people as you can easily, and extract as much cash as possible from them. Somewhere in between the two? ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: We don't advertise speeds at all. We just say that you won't be able to tell a difference between our system and Comcast/Centurylink. We will also guarantee that your video will not buffer. 50% growth last year and we expect at least that this year. Rory -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 9:40 AM
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Over 55 == not tech savvy? Hmmm. Not sure that picture communicates that you are friendly to older folks. To some it may say that this is your grandmother’s internet... slow, AOL, dial up modems, etc. Just an opinion. Probably wrong. From: Rory Conaway via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:57 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Read my next article, Chapter 52, where I actually cover some of this but more on the technical side. It should be published by the end of the week. I was also on one of those panels last year but had different ones this year. I’m working with another startup that is at 600 subs right now and expanding like crazy. Here is an advertisement we are posting in the local paper November 1 for the next 6 months in an area with 2000 homes. It’s an over 55 area, hence the picture. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:35 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Rory, Aaron and I split the sessions this year. I went to the technical ones, and he went to the business ones (which is how we divide our focus inside the company anyway, based on company role and experience). Aaron was... blown away when he went to the 500-2000 sub session and the people on the panel didn't know their gross monthly revenue. Aaron can at least tell you per week, and often per day, that figure. We have been competing against the ILEC, CLEC/Cable Co, and two other WISPs for 8 years as a company, yet we still have seen on average a 30% growth year after year because of our business model. IMO, Chuck, Gino, Nathan, and others do very well from what I have heard/seen when it comes to explaining the larger (~3000+) sub count businesses, but it seems like there is a huge technical and business knowledge gap when you go from ~ 500-2000 subs. I am hopeful that next year yourself and others can give a detailed report at the next show of how different businesses in different areas have been effective at fighting off the 800 lb gorillas. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 10:15 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: My philosophy as a business owner is to make the most money possiblebased on an ethical, moral, and legal foundation. At the same time, mycompetitors have the same profit margin goal but prioritize legal first.When competing against multi-billion dollar companies, you can'tout-market them and when you become an annoyance, they just lower theirprice to drive you out of business. So we used price as the dooropener. When CenturyLink found out we were offering pre-paid at $18 permonth (they have to pay for the full year), they dropped their serviceto the same price. At $18 per month, you either have to have very low costs or limitedservice needs. Since few people need more than 5Mbps and can't tell thedifference between 5Mbps and 150Mbps, we tell them if they can tell thedifference, we will refund their service. I've lost 1 client in 7 yearsand that was before 802.11N. They aren't stupid and most customers whocheck see between 6-20Mbps. Customers who are part of our currentexpansion are seeing 40Mbps and should be at 50Mbps over the next weekor so. That being said, times have changed and we will be offering new optionssuch as higher speed video streaming packages for $6 per month more,higher security options, etc... Rory -Original Message-From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tyler Treat via AfSent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:04 AMTo: af@afmug.comSubject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Rory- can your model be replicated on outside of suburbia? Aside from that, this really all goes back to your personal businessphilosophy. Are you trying to provide the absolute very best servicepossible - or - are you after the low hanging fruit? Get as many peopleas you can easily, and extract as much cash as possible from them.Somewhere in between the two? ___Mangled by my iPhone.___ Tyler TreatCorn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.treat@cornbelttech.com___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Rory Conaway via Af mailto:af@afmug.comwrote: We don't advertise speeds at all. We just say that you won't be ableto tell a difference between our system and Comcast/Centurylink. Wewill also guarantee that your video will not buffer. 50% growth lastyear and we expect at least that this year. Rory -Original Message-From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof via AfSent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 9:40 AMTo: af@afmug.comSubject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Good point about business and upload speed. Even businesses with people working from home via VPN and video Skype.I have a guy uploading documents to his server at a datacenter, he iscrying that I'm only
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered deploying 450 (and similar)in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNTor similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com http://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
We get all of the above including the latter. On 10/18/2014 1:15 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: But there’s the stages of where WISPs have historically gotten their customers: 1) People getting Internet for the first time 2) People switching from dialup 3) People switching from DSL 4) People switching from satellite 5) People switching from mobile hotspots 6) People switching from other WISPs who did things on the cheap I guess stage 7 would be deploy fiber and drink everybody’s milkshake. *From:* Josh Reynolds via Af mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent:* Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:27 PM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered deploying 450 (and similar)in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNTor similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com http://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Oh no. I never said that. My biggest growth came from tablet and NetFlix users last year. We ran the add past 3 of our customers and they really liked it. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:23 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Over 55 == not tech savvy? Hmmm. Not sure that picture communicates that you are friendly to older folks. To some it may say that this is your grandmother’s internet... slow, AOL, dial up modems, etc. Just an opinion. Probably wrong. From: Rory Conaway via Af mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:57 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Read my next article, Chapter 52, where I actually cover some of this but more on the technical side. It should be published by the end of the week. I was also on one of those panels last year but had different ones this year. I’m working with another startup that is at 600 subs right now and expanding like crazy. Here is an advertisement we are posting in the local paper November 1 for the next 6 months in an area with 2000 homes. It’s an over 55 area, hence the picture. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:35 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Rory, Aaron and I split the sessions this year. I went to the technical ones, and he went to the business ones (which is how we divide our focus inside the company anyway, based on company role and experience). Aaron was... blown away when he went to the 500-2000 sub session and the people on the panel didn't know their gross monthly revenue. Aaron can at least tell you per week, and often per day, that figure. We have been competing against the ILEC, CLEC/Cable Co, and two other WISPs for 8 years as a company, yet we still have seen on average a 30% growth year after year because of our business model. IMO, Chuck, Gino, Nathan, and others do very well from what I have heard/seen when it comes to explaining the larger (~3000+) sub count businesses, but it seems like there is a huge technical and business knowledge gap when you go from ~ 500-2000 subs. I am hopeful that next year yourself and others can give a detailed report at the next show of how different businesses in different areas have been effective at fighting off the 800 lb gorillas. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 10:15 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: My philosophy as a business owner is to make the most money possible based on an ethical, moral, and legal foundation. At the same time, my competitors have the same profit margin goal but prioritize legal first. When competing against multi-billion dollar companies, you can't out-market them and when you become an annoyance, they just lower their price to drive you out of business. So we used price as the door opener. When CenturyLink found out we were offering pre-paid at $18 per month (they have to pay for the full year), they dropped their service to the same price. At $18 per month, you either have to have very low costs or limited service needs. Since few people need more than 5Mbps and can't tell the difference between 5Mbps and 150Mbps, we tell them if they can tell the difference, we will refund their service. I've lost 1 client in 7 years and that was before 802.11N. They aren't stupid and most customers who check see between 6-20Mbps. Customers who are part of our current expansion are seeing 40Mbps and should be at 50Mbps over the next week or so. That being said, times have changed and we will be offering new options such as higher speed video streaming packages for $6 per month more, higher security options, etc... Rory -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tyler Treat via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:04 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Rory- can your model be replicated on outside of suburbia? Aside from that, this really all goes back to your personal business philosophy. Are you trying to provide the absolute very best service possible - or - are you after the low hanging fruit? Get as many people as you can easily, and extract as much cash as possible from them. Somewhere in between the two? ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc.
Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable?
Here is a link to the coax cable with power wires I'm taking about that I want done on fiber — Sent from Mailbox On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:02 PM, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I'm sure you have all seen the coax cable exeed uses with the extra copper on outside of jacked for power.. Dose anyone one know is it's possible to order fiber with 2 copper wires on out side of jacket in its own jacket? — Sent from Mailbox
Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable?
Forgot to attach link.. http://m.grainger.com/mobile/product/CAROL-Coaxial-And-Power-Cable-1ATG8 — Sent from Mailbox On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:02 PM, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I'm sure you have all seen the coax cable exeed uses with the extra copper on outside of jacked for power.. Dose anyone one know is it's possible to order fiber with 2 copper wires on out side of jacket in its own jacket? — Sent from Mailbox
Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable?
Everything is pricy to begin with but after the demand is there price will go down just think of all the ways it would change the wisp industry No longer having to deal with cable interference on towers You can now link 450 radios 1000ft from farm house where you have line of sight It will allow manufactors to use fiber on AP's instead of Ethernet and get its power from the power wires It fixes soo many issues I really think this is a cable that needs to be made — Sent from Mailbox On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com wrote: It's certainly possible, you just might not like the price. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I'm sure you have all seen the coax cable exeed uses with the extra copper on outside of jacked for power.. Dose anyone one know is it's possible to order fiber with 2 copper wires on out side of jacket in its own jacket? — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox
Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable?
Running fiber and copper wire separately gets you the same function with lower cost. Having both in one cable is nice but are you will to pay extra to combine them? If so, companies are waiting for your order. Commscope and RFS are the players in this cable type for the Cellular carrier tower market. At the recent OSP show I talked with Dan Tomica at Cablecon and looked at a sample cable they had on display. He implied he is cheaper. I told him WISPs would like something like this. I think he said they could do a custom cable in as little a 5k ft but obviously the price would be lower per foot with a bigger order. So you need to decide what you want. SM? MM? How many strands? How many conductors? What gauge? Gel? Water block thread? Strength members? Jacket material? Armor? Let us know what price you get. Maybe you can put together a buying consortium. http://www.cablcon.com/pdf/088_Cablcon%20Bro_FibertoAntennaFTTAFTTx.pdf PC Blaze Broadband From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of timothy steele via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:05 PM To: af@afmug.com Cc: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable? Everything is pricy to begin with but after the demand is there price will go down just think of all the ways it would change the wisp industry No longer having to deal with cable interference on towers You can now link 450 radios 1000ft from farm house where you have line of sight It will allow manufactors to use fiber on AP's instead of Ethernet and get its power from the power wires It fixes soo many issues I really think this is a cable that needs to be made — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com wrote: It's certainly possible, you just might not like the price. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I'm sure you have all seen the coax cable exeed uses with the extra copper on outside of jacked for power.. Dose anyone one know is it's possible to order fiber with 2 copper wires on out side of jacket in its own jacket? — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox
Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable?
It's going to have to happen the other way around, radio manufacturers are going to have to start making APs with SFP cages and then you might start seeing lower cost options when it comes to hybrid cable. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Everything is pricy to begin with but after the demand is there price will go down just think of all the ways it would change the wisp industry No longer having to deal with cable interference on towers You can now link 450 radios 1000ft from farm house where you have line of sight It will allow manufactors to use fiber on AP's instead of Ethernet and get its power from the power wires It fixes soo many issues I really think this is a cable that needs to be made — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); wrote: It's certainly possible, you just might not like the price. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); wrote: I'm sure you have all seen the coax cable exeed uses with the extra copper on outside of jacked for power.. Dose anyone one know is it's possible to order fiber with 2 copper wires on out side of jacket in its own jacket? — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox
Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable?
So I found out through my Commscope friend that only supplies ATT (lush job), he told me that they are all custom built to order, the price is typically about $5-8/ft depending on size of the copper wire or depending on the amount of fiber. He told me that they don't usually sell it the way we would want it, unterminated, a big roll, etc. Regards, Chuck On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 9:08 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com wrote: It's going to have to happen the other way around, radio manufacturers are going to have to start making APs with SFP cages and then you might start seeing lower cost options when it comes to hybrid cable. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Everything is pricy to begin with but after the demand is there price will go down just think of all the ways it would change the wisp industry No longer having to deal with cable interference on towers You can now link 450 radios 1000ft from farm house where you have line of sight It will allow manufactors to use fiber on AP's instead of Ethernet and get its power from the power wires It fixes soo many issues I really think this is a cable that needs to be made — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com wrote: It's certainly possible, you just might not like the price. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I'm sure you have all seen the coax cable exeed uses with the extra copper on outside of jacked for power.. Dose anyone one know is it's possible to order fiber with 2 copper wires on out side of jacket in its own jacket? — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox
Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable?
Got a fusion splicer so that would work way more pricey then I expected though — Sent from Mailbox On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Chuck Hogg via Af af@afmug.com wrote: So I found out through my Commscope friend that only supplies ATT (lush job), he told me that they are all custom built to order, the price is typically about $5-8/ft depending on size of the copper wire or depending on the amount of fiber. He told me that they don't usually sell it the way we would want it, unterminated, a big roll, etc. Regards, Chuck On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 9:08 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com wrote: It's going to have to happen the other way around, radio manufacturers are going to have to start making APs with SFP cages and then you might start seeing lower cost options when it comes to hybrid cable. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Everything is pricy to begin with but after the demand is there price will go down just think of all the ways it would change the wisp industry No longer having to deal with cable interference on towers You can now link 450 radios 1000ft from farm house where you have line of sight It will allow manufactors to use fiber on AP's instead of Ethernet and get its power from the power wires It fixes soo many issues I really think this is a cable that needs to be made — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com wrote: It's certainly possible, you just might not like the price. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I'm sure you have all seen the coax cable exeed uses with the extra copper on outside of jacked for power.. Dose anyone one know is it's possible to order fiber with 2 copper wires on out side of jacket in its own jacket? — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
How are you backhauling? On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:42 PM, TJ Trout t...@voltbb.com wrote: Rory, Do you have any pics of your microcells? how are you mounting them? on houses? Tripod? On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af af@afmug.com wrote: But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing APs at the same site is also a very big benefit, not just geographic/multi-site. On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- *From: *Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Rory, Do you have any pics of your microcells? how are you mounting them? on houses? Tripod? On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af af@afmug.com wrote: But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing APs at the same site is also a very big benefit, not just geographic/multi-site. On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- *From: *Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
We are using Powerbridges and Nanobridges but I’m changing them out for PowerBeams right now. We use RF shields on all of them. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of TJ Trout via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:43 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons How are you backhauling? On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:42 PM, TJ Trout t...@voltbb.com wrote: Rory, Do you have any pics of your microcells? how are you mounting them? on houses? Tripod? On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af af@afmug.com wrote: But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing APs at the same site is also a very big benefit, not just geographic/multi-site. On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I use tripods or sometimes just bolt to refrigeration brackets if they use a frame. I’ll dig some pictures up tomorrow. I have to download them to sort through them. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of TJ Trout via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:43 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Rory, Do you have any pics of your microcells? how are you mounting them? on houses? Tripod? On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af af@afmug.com wrote: But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing APs at the same site is also a very big benefit, not just geographic/multi-site. On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places
