[AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[TJ Trout via Af]

I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings
but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some
equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have
any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to
have the same if not better performance , sync, etc?

My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of
the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Matt Jenkins via Af]

Depends on customer density per AP. If you have low (<25) density, I 
would recommend ePMP. Otherwise I would recommend 450.


Matthew Jenkins
SmarterBroadband
m...@sbbinc.net
530.272.4000

On 10/17/2014 02:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af wrote:


I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp 
offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty 
quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 
and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra 
money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , 
sync, etc?


My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all 
of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af]

ePMP is better than all the other wifi based crap. But if you're going 
to put a couple hundred subs on a tower, use the 450.


On 10/17/2014 4:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af wrote:


I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp 
offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty 
quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 
and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra 
money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , 
sync, etc?


My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all 
of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Adam Moffett via Af]

They were saying in Albany that they'd tested it with 120 subs, but they 
wouldn't suggest more than 50. They were touting the number 50 as being 
about double what you'd normally see suggested for wifi based equipment.


How'd you arrive at the number 25?  Did you have trouble with it?

Depends on customer density per AP. If you have low (<25) density, I 
would recommend ePMP. Otherwise I would recommend 450.


Matthew Jenkins
SmarterBroadband
m...@sbbinc.net
530.272.4000

On 10/17/2014 02:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af wrote:


I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp 
offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty 
quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 
and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the 
extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better 
performance , sync, etc?


My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with 
all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Josh Reynolds via Af]

Curious how the bitlomat offering will stack up to ePMP.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 

On 10/17/2014 02:27 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af wrote:
ePMP is better than all the other wifi based crap. But if you're going 
to put a couple hundred subs on a tower, use the 450.


On 10/17/2014 4:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af wrote:


I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp 
offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty 
quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 
and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the 
extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better 
performance , sync, etc?


My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with 
all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Kurt Fankhauser via Af]

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then
middle of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was
so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will
probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I
considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons:

1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients
on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms.
Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want
the best latency to stick with the 450.
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent
towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have
sync.
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the
clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole
spectrum.
4.No burst bucket on CPE's
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were
offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface
with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these
radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and
takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios.
6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a
combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them...
7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like
13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of
the ePMP.
8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP
seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP
linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment.

There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed.


Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af  wrote:

> I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp
> offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty
> quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and
> epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money
> when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc?
>
> My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of
> the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
>

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[TJ Trout via Af]

Kurt,

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any differences at all?
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5
has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me

Thanks

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af 
wrote:

> I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then
> middle of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was
> so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will
> probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I
> considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons:
>
> 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients
> on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms.
> Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want
> the best latency to stick with the 450.
> 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent
> towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have
> sync.
> 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the
> clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole
> spectrum.
> 4.No burst bucket on CPE's
> 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were
> offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface
> with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these
> radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and
> takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios.
> 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a
> combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them...
> 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like
> 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of
> the ePMP.
> 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP
> seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP
> linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment.
>
> There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed.
>
>
> Kurt Fankhauser
>
> Wavelinc Communications
>
> P.O. Box 126
>
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>
> http://www.wavelinc.com
>
> tel. 419-562-6405
>
> fax. 419-617-0110
>
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af  wrote:
>
>> I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp
>> offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty
>> quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and
>> epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money
>> when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc?
>>
>> My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of
>> the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

Regarding #7... don't use an omni. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:20:20 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle 
of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I 
couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably 
stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them 
all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 


1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on 
an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. 
Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the 
best latency to stick with the 450. 
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers 
on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients 
fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 
4.No burst bucket on CPE's 
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading 
alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i 
can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do 
site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log 
into the EPMP radios. 
6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination 
of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 
7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. 
When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 
8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP 
seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest 
get full up or down outside of a lab environment. 


There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. 






Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 



I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but 
we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some 
equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any 
pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the 
same if not better performance , sync, etc? 
My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the 
positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money? 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

3 is *NOT* licensed. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "TJ Trout via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:57:42 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Kurt, 


Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? 
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has 
more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 


Thanks 


On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af < af@afmug.com > 
wrote: 



I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle 
of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I 
couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably 
stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them 
all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 


1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on 
an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. 
Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the 
best latency to stick with the 450. 
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers 
on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients 
fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 
4.No burst bucket on CPE's 
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading 
alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i 
can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do 
site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log 
into the EPMP radios. 
6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination 
of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 
7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. 
When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 
8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP 
seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest 
get full up or down outside of a lab environment. 


There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. 






Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 



I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but 
we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some 
equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any 
pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the 
same if not better performance , sync, etc? 
My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the 
positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money? 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Kurt Fankhauser via Af]

TJ,

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS
range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz
NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have
the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same
firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only
major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That
just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are
some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size
but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450.


Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af  wrote:

> Kurt,
>
> Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any differences at
> all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed
> and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me
>
> Thanks
>
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af 
> wrote:
>
>> I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then
>> middle of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was
>> so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will
>> probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I
>> considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons:
>>
>> 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10
>> clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much
>> 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if
>> you want the best latency to stick with the 450.
>> 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent
>> towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have
>> sync.
>> 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the
>> clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole
>> spectrum.
>> 4.No burst bucket on CPE's
>> 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were
>> offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface
>> with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these
>> radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and
>> takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios.
>> 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a
>> combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them...
>> 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like
>> 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of
>> the ePMP.
>> 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable.
>> EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP
>> linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment.
>>
>> There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed.
>>
>>
>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>
>> Wavelinc Communications
>>
>> P.O. Box 126
>>
>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>>
>> http://www.wavelinc.com
>>
>> tel. 419-562-6405
>>
>> fax. 419-617-0110
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af  wrote:
>>
>>> I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp
>>> offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty
>>> quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and
>>> epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money
>>> when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc?
>>>
>>> My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all
>>> of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Paul McCall via Af]

Kurt,

I have some comments inline.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser via Af
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 2:20 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle 
of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I 
couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably 
stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them 
all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons:

1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on 
an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. 
Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the 
best latency to stick with the 450.  The BIGGEST factor on ePMP (or any 802.11) 
is quality installs EVERY time.  You cannot have borderline customers (lots of 
retransmissions in the stats) or you will really hurt the APs ability to do its 
thing.  This is not new to 802.11, but very different from regular Canopy gear. 
You have to raise your standards of what is acceptable from a SNR and link test 
capability. Our standard is evolving on this, but if we have a radio performing 
at less than 50% of maximum capacity, we don’t accept it.  We do whatever it 
takes to get better LOS (or NLOS).
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers 
on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync.  Sync 
is coming Cambium has promised.
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients 
fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum.  
Agreed.  Remote SA is needed.  eDedect does a pretty good job and picking 
things up and we use Mikrotik routers inside the home to help diagnose 
Scan/Snoop whats going on inside the home.  This has been HUGE for us.
4.No burst bucket on CPE's.  Agreed.  Though we manage burst / sustained at the 
head-end
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading 
alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i 
can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do 
site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log 
into the EPMP radios.  Agreed.  If the PCs would cache the Java libraries that 
come down to the PC, I think they would solve the problem.  I have suggested 
that o Cambium.
6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination 
of many factors here... slow interface one of them...  hmmm… not had an issue… 
our installers say they are easy.  The LEDs’ get you very close, then someone 
else tweaks them (another tech onsite or remotely from the office.  But, yes, 
the interface could be quicker.
7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. 
This has fixed in later firmware versions.  When using an omni antenna you 
can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP.
8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP 
seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest 
get full up or down outside of a lab environment.  We have customers getting 
110Mbit aggregate on their link test in the field (UDP of course).



There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed.


Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com<http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but 
we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some 
equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any 
pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the 
same if not better performance , sync, etc?

My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the 
positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


TJ, 


No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 






Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 



Kurt, 


Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? 
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has 
more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 


Thanks 


On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af < af@afmug.com > 
wrote: 



I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle 
of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I 
couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably 
stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them 
all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 


1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on 
an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. 
Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the 
best latency to stick with the 450. 
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers 
on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients 
fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 
4.No burst bucket on CPE's 
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading 
alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i 
can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do 
site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log 
into the EPMP radios. 
6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination 
of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 
7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. 
When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 
8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP 
seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest 
get full up or down outside of a lab environment. 


There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. 






Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 



I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but 
we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some 
equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any 
pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the 
same if not better performance , sync, etc? 
My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the 
positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money? 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Tyler Treat via Af]

Afford/justify.  Either way I pretty much agree.  And I was an omni fanboy.

___
Mangled by my iPhone.
___

Tyler Treat
Corn Belt Technologies, Inc.

tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com<mailto:tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com>
___


On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ,

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450.


Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com<http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:
Kurt,

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any differences at all? 
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has 
more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me

Thanks

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:
I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle 
of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I 
couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably 
stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them 
all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons:

1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on 
an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. 
Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the 
best latency to stick with the 450.
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers 
on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync.
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients 
fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum.
4.No burst bucket on CPE's
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading 
alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i 
can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do 
site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log 
into the EPMP radios.
6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination 
of many factors here... slow interface one of them...
7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. 
When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP.
8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP 
seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest 
get full up or down outside of a lab environment.

There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed.


Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com<http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but 
we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some 
equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any 
pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the 
same if not better performance , sync, etc?

My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the 
positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Ken Hohhof via Af]

Which problem is easier to fix?  You deployed an omni and take rate has been 
phenomenal and you need more capacity?  Or you deployed 4 sectors and only have 
5 subs between them?  Well, I guess the second one, if the answer is 
decommission the site and redeploy the equipment.


From: Tyler Treat via Af 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:28 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Afford/justify.  Either way I pretty much agree.  And I was an omni fanboy.   


___
Mangled by my iPhone.
___

Tyler Treat
Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. 

tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com
___


On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af  wrote:


  I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day.




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
  http://www.ics-il.com



--

  From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons


  TJ, 

  No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS 
range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS 
is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 



  Kurt Fankhauser
  Wavelinc Communications

  P.O. Box 126

  Bucyrus, OH 44820

  http://www.wavelinc.com

  tel. 419-562-6405

  fax. 419-617-0110


  On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af  wrote:

Kurt, 

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any differences at all? 
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has 
more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 

Thanks

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af  
wrote:

  I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then 
middle of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so 
low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will 
probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I 
considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 

  1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 
clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 
ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want 
the best latency to stick with the 450.
  2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent 
towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync.
  3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the 
clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole 
spectrum.
  4.No burst bucket on CPE's 
  5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were 
offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface 
with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these 
radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes 
FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios.
  6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a 
combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them...
  7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 
13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the 
ePMP.
  8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. 
EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP 
linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment.

  There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed.




  Kurt Fankhauser
  Wavelinc Communications

  P.O. Box 126

  Bucyrus, OH 44820

  http://www.wavelinc.com

  tel. 419-562-6405

  fax. 419-617-0110



  On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af  wrote:

I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp 
offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly 
on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you 
have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Kurt Fankhauser via Af]

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

> On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af  wrote:
> 
> I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
> they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
> anything any day.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
> 
> From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
> 
> TJ,
> 
> No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS 
> range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS 
> is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the 
> same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware 
> and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major 
> difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just 
> translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some 
> places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but 
> overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 
> 
> 
> Kurt Fankhauser
> Wavelinc Communications
> P.O. Box 126
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
> http://www.wavelinc.com
> tel. 419-562-6405
> fax. 419-617-0110
> 
>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af  wrote:
>> Kurt,
>> 
>> Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any differences at all? 
>> Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 
>> has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>>> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af  
>>> wrote:
>>> I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then 
>>> middle of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was 
>>> so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will 
>>> probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I 
>>> considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons:
>>> 
>>> 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients 
>>> on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. 
>>> Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want 
>>> the best latency to stick with the 450.
>>> 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent 
>>> towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have 
>>> sync.
>>> 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the 
>>> clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole 
>>> spectrum.
>>> 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 
>>> 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were 
>>> offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface 
>>> with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these 
>>> radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and 
>>> takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios.
>>> 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a 
>>> combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them...
>>> 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 
>>> 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of 
>>> the ePMP.
>>> 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP 
>>> seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP 
>>> linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment.
>>> 
>>> There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>> Wavelinc Communications
>>> P.O. Box 126
>>> Bucyrus, OH 4482

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

The four sectors are still cheaper than one 450 on an omni. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Ken Hohhof via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:41:32 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 




Which problem is easier to fix? You deployed an omni and take rate has been 
phenomenal and you need more capacity? Or you deployed 4 sectors and only have 
5 subs between them? Well, I guess the second one, if the answer is 
decommission the site and redeploy the equipment. 





From: Tyler Treat via Af 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:28 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Afford/justify. Either way I pretty much agree. And I was an omni fanboy. 


___ 
Mangled by my iPhone. 
___ 

Tyler Treat 
Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. 

tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com 
___ 


On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 





I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


TJ, 

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 






Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 



Kurt, 

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? 
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has 
more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 

Thanks 


On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af < af@afmug.com > 
wrote: 



I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle 
of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I 
couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably 
stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them 
all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 

1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on 
an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. 
Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the 
best latency to stick with the 450. 
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers 
on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients 
fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 
4.No burst bucket on CPE's 
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading 
alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i 
can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do 
site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log 
into the EPMP radios. 
6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination 
of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 
7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. 
When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 
8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP 
seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest 
get full up or down outside of a lab environment. 

There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. 






Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 



I haven't been keeping real up to date on 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Kurt Fankhauser via Af]

Paul,

I will agree with you on quality of installs has gone way up but thats across 
the board for any OFDM ptmp system. Started seeing this with 430 and the 
previous FSK links that were getting 100% link tests still needed tweeked to 
get the link tests up higher on the ofdm links.

Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

> On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:14 AM, Paul McCall via Af  wrote:
> 
> Kurt,
>  
> I have some comments inline.
>  
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser via Af
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 2:20 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
>  
> I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then 
> middle of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so 
> low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will 
> probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I 
> considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons:
>  
> 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on 
> an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. 
> Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the 
> best latency to stick with the 450.  The BIGGEST factor on ePMP (or any 
> 802.11) is quality installs EVERY time.  You cannot have borderline customers 
> (lots of retransmissions in the stats) or you will really hurt the APs 
> ability to do its thing.  This is not new to 802.11, but very different from 
> regular Canopy gear. You have to raise your standards of what is acceptable 
> from a SNR and link test capability. Our standard is evolving on this, but if 
> we have a radio performing at less than 50% of maximum capacity, we don’t 
> accept it.  We do whatever it takes to get better LOS (or NLOS).
> 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent 
> towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have 
> sync.  Sync is coming Cambium has promised.
> 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients 
> fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 
>  Agreed.  Remote SA is needed.  eDedect does a pretty good job and picking 
> things up and we use Mikrotik routers inside the home to help diagnose 
> Scan/Snoop whats going on inside the home.  This has been HUGE for us.
> 4.No burst bucket on CPE's.  Agreed.  Though we manage burst / sustained at 
> the head-end
> 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were 
> offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface 
> with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these 
> radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes 
> FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios.  Agreed.  If the PCs would cache the 
> Java libraries that come down to the PC, I think they would solve the 
> problem.  I have suggested that o Cambium.
> 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a 
> combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them...  hmmm… not 
> had an issue… our installers say they are easy.  The LEDs’ get you very 
> close, then someone else tweaks them (another tech onsite or remotely from 
> the office.  But, yes, the interface could be quicker.
> 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. 
> This has fixed in later firmware versions.  When using an omni antenna you 
> can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 
> 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP 
> seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP 
> linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment.  We have customers 
> getting 110Mbit aggregate on their link test in the field (UDP of course).
>  
>  
>  
> There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed.
> 
>  
> Kurt Fankhauser
> Wavelinc Communications
> P.O. Box 126
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
> http://www.wavelinc.com
> tel. 419-562-6405
> fax. 419-617-0110
>  
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af  wrote:
> I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings 
> but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some 
> equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any 
> pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have 
> the same if not better performance , sync, etc?
> 
> My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the 
> positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
> 
>  

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Kurt Fankhauser via Af]

Huh? are you putting the cheap connectorized CPE on them or the $500 gps sync 
AP on them?

Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

> On Oct 18, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Mike Hammett via Af  wrote:
> 
> The four sectors are still cheaper than one 450 on an omni.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
> 
> From: "Ken Hohhof via Af" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:41:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
> 
> Which problem is easier to fix?  You deployed an omni and take rate has been 
> phenomenal and you need more capacity?  Or you deployed 4 sectors and only 
> have 5 subs between them?  Well, I guess the second one, if the answer is 
> decommission the site and redeploy the equipment.
>  
>  
> From: Tyler Treat via Af
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:28 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
>  
> Afford/justify.  Either way I pretty much agree.  And I was an omni fanboy.   
> 
> ___
> Mangled by my iPhone.
> ___
>  
> Tyler Treat
> Corn Belt Technologies, Inc.
>  
> tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com
> ___
>  
> 
> On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af  wrote:
> 
> I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
> they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
> anything any day.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
> 
> From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
> 
> TJ,
>  
> No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS 
> range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS 
> is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the 
> same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware 
> and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major 
> difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just 
> translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some 
> places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but 
> overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450.
>  
> 
> Kurt Fankhauser
> Wavelinc Communications
> P.O. Box 126
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
> http://www.wavelinc.com
> tel. 419-562-6405
> fax. 419-617-0110
>  
>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af  wrote:
>> Kurt,
>>  
>> Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any differences at all? 
>> Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3  is licensed 
>> and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me
>>  
>> Thanks
>>  
>>> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af  
>>> wrote:
>>> I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then 
>>> middle of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was 
>>> so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will 
>>> probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I 
>>> considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons:
>>>  
>>> 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients 
>>> on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. 
>>> Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want 
>>> the best latency to stick with the 450.
>>> 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent 
>>> towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have 
>>> sync.
>>> 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the 
>>> clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole 
>>> spectrum.
>>> 4.No burst bucket on CPE's
>>> 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were 
>>> offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface 
>>> with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these 
>>> radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and 
>>> tak

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[David Milholen via Af]

Also,
 Money sense is a factor. If you are determined to do it cheap then go 
for it. Keep in mind happy customers means faster ROI.
If you are looking at a dense population IE Metro then spend the time 
and money to deploy a system that will scale well and grow
as you add tons of subs without having to add more aps and worry about 
if you are interfering with your self. The 450 is the simple

answer for me. 2 cents


On 10/17/2014 4:21 PM, Matt Jenkins via Af wrote:
Depends on customer density per AP. If you have low (<25) density, I 
would recommend ePMP. Otherwise I would recommend 450.


Matthew Jenkins
SmarterBroadband
m...@sbbinc.net
530.272.4000

On 10/17/2014 02:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af wrote:


I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp 
offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty 
quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 
and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the 
extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better 
performance , sync, etc?


My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with 
all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?






--

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[David Milholen via Af]

+ one happy face :)

On 10/17/2014 4:27 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af wrote:
ePMP is better than all the other wifi based crap. But if you're going 
to put a couple hundred subs on a tower, use the 450.


On 10/17/2014 4:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af wrote:


I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp 
offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty 
quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 
and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the 
extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better 
performance , sync, etc?


My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with 
all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?






--

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Josh Reynolds via Af]

You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered deploying 
450 (and similar)in the past:


By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNTor 
similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 
clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at 
least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the 
omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it 
to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have 
the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with 
existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 
segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site 
right now...


Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably 
because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors 
over omnis on anything any day.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


*From: *"Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ,

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than 
NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same 
animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all 
function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel 
width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being 
the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H 
versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni 
being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am 
still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450.



Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


Kurt,

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any
differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz
penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but
anything else? All bands are open for me

Thanks

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and
3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had to"try"
some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I
can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick
with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I
considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my
reasons:

1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more
than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the
latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about
this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best
latency to stick with the 450.
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you
have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see
each other you won't have sync.
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for
when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby
monitors and trash the whole spectrum.
4.No burst bucket on CPE's
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour
they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you
are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad
core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site
surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes
FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios.
6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think
its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one
of them...
7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output.
Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't
get maximum legal EIRP out of

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af]

Hey, I don't like the "enterprise" cost of Canopy either, but its 
scalability is unmatched for high density deployments.


On 10/18/2014 12:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar)in the past:


By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNTor 
similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 
clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at 
least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the 
omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it 
to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have 
the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with 
existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 
segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site 
right now...


Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably 
because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors 
over omnis on anything any day.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


*From: *"Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ,

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than 
NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same 
animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all 
function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel 
width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being 
the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H 
versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni 
being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish 
the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am 
still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450.



Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


Kurt,

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any
differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz
penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but
anything else? All bands are open for me

Thanks

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and
3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had to"try"
some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist
I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick
with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I
considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my
reasons:

1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more
than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the
latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about
this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best
latency to stick with the 450.
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you
have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see
each other you won't have sync.
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for
when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby
monitors and trash the whole spectrum.
4.No burst bucket on CPE's
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour
they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you
are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad
core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site
surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes
FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios.
6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think
its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one
 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Ken Hohhof via Af]

But there’s the stages of where WISPs have historically gotten their customers:

1)  People getting Internet for the first time
2)  People switching from dialup
3)  People switching from DSL
4)  People switching from satellite
5)  People switching from mobile hotspots
6)  People switching from other WISPs who did things on the cheap

I guess stage 7 would be deploy fiber and drink everybody’s milkshake.

From: Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:27 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

  I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now...

  Sent from my iPhone 

  Kurt Fankhauser
  Wavelinc Communications
  P.O. Box 126
  Bucyrus, OH 44820
  http://www.wavelinc.com
  tel. 419-562-6405
  fax. 419-617-0110

  On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af  wrote:


I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com





From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons


TJ, 

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS 
range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS 
is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 



Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af  wrote:

  Kurt, 

  Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any differences at 
all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 
has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 

  Thanks

  On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af  
wrote:

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and 
then middle of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was 
so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will 
probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I 
considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 

1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 
clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 
ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want 
the best latency to stick with the 450.
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have 
adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't 
have sync.
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the 
clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole 
spectrum.
4.No burst bucket on CPE's 
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were 
offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface 
with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these 
radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes 
FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios.
6. Fore some reason sit

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Chuck McCown via Af]

Yep and if you give me a hard time I will beat you with a bowling pin.

From: Ken Hohhof via Af 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

But there’s the stages of where WISPs have historically gotten their customers:

1)  People getting Internet for the first time
2)  People switching from dialup
3)  People switching from DSL
4)  People switching from satellite
5)  People switching from mobile hotspots
6)  People switching from other WISPs who did things on the cheap

I guess stage 7 would be deploy fiber and drink everybody’s milkshake.

From: Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:27 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

  I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now...

  Sent from my iPhone 

  Kurt Fankhauser
  Wavelinc Communications
  P.O. Box 126
  Bucyrus, OH 44820
  http://www.wavelinc.com
  tel. 419-562-6405
  fax. 419-617-0110

  On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af  wrote:


I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com





From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons


TJ, 

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS 
range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS 
is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 



Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af  wrote:

  Kurt, 

  Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any differences at 
all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 
has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 

  Thanks

  On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af  
wrote:

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and 
then middle of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was 
so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will 
probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I 
considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 

1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 
clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 
ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want 
the best latency to stick with the 450.
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have 
adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't 
have sync.
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the 
clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole 
spectrum.
4.No burst bucket on CPE's 
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were 
offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface 
with and i can't be tak

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mark Radabaugh via Af]

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  
I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the 
amount of noise your making.


Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar)in the past:


By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNTor 
similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 
clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at 
least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the 
omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it 
to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have 
the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with 
existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 
segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site 
right now...


Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably 
because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors 
over omnis on anything any day.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


*From: *"Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ,

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than 
NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same 
animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all 
function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel 
width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being 
the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H 
versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni 
being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish 
the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am 
still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450.



Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


Kurt,

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any
differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz
penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but
anything else? All bands are open for me

Thanks

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and
3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had to"try"
some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist
I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick
with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I
considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my
reasons:

1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more
than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the
latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about
this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best
latency to stick with the 450.
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you
have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see
each other you won't have sync.
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for
when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby
monitors and trash the whole spectrum.
4.No burst bucket on CPE's
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour
they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you
are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad
core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site
surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes
FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios.
6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think
it

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[David Milholen via Af]

We get all of the above including the latter.

On 10/18/2014 1:15 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote:
But there’s the stages of where WISPs have historically gotten their 
customers:

1)  People getting Internet for the first time
2)  People switching from dialup
3)  People switching from DSL
4)  People switching from satellite
5)  People switching from mobile hotspots
6)  People switching from other WISPs who did things on the cheap
I guess stage 7 would be deploy fiber and drink everybody’s milkshake.
*From:* Josh Reynolds via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:27 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar)in the past:


By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNTor 
similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 
clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at 
least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the 
omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it 
to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have 
the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with 
existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 
segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site 
right now...


Sent from my iPhone
Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably 
because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors 
over omnis on anything any day.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


*From: *"Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ,
No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than 
NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same 
animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all 
function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel 
width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being 
the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H 
versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni 
being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish 
the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am 
still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450.


Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


Kurt,
Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any
differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz
penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but
anything else? All bands are open for me
Thanks
On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and
3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had to"try"
some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist
I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick
with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I
considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my
reasons:
1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more
than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the
latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about
this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best
latency to stick with the 450.
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you
have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see
each other you won't have sync.
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for
when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby
monitors and trash the whole spectrum.
4.No burst bucket on CPE's
5.EPMP Interface is

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[David Milholen via Af]

I have RF goggles and the air is really muddy so they become useless :)

On 10/18/2014 3:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:
And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything 
new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything 
given the amount of noise your making.


Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar)in the past:


By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNTor 
similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 
clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at 
least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the 
omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change 
it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and 
have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with 
existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 
segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site 
right now...


Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably 
because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors 
over omnis on anything any day.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


*From: *"Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ,

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than 
NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same 
animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all 
function the same and have the same expected throughputs per 
channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the 
interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates 
to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some 
places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni 
size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450.



Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


Kurt,

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any
differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz
penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but
anything else? All bands are open for me

Thanks

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and
3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had
to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't
resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will
probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons
that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion.
Here are my reasons:

1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more
than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the
latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about
this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best
latency to stick with the 450.
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you
have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can
see each other you won't have sync.
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE
for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby
monitors and trash the whole spectrum.
4.No burst bucket on CPE's
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour
they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you
are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad
core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site
surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes
F

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

How can you be out of spectrum unless everything has to be 5.7-5.8GHz?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark Radabaugh via Af
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:52 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) 
have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we 
don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a 
valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put 
the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to 
sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing 
clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am 
dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford 
any more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af 
 wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis 
(presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors 
over omnis on anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ, 

 

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands 
(other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same 
animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the 
same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the 
same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only 
major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just 
translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some 
places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but 
overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 




 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/> 

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110

 

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af 
 wrote:



Kurt, 

 

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any 
differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is 
licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 

 

Thanks

 

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via 
Af  wrote:

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 
3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because 
the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly 
certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that 
when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 

  

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Josh Reynolds via Af]

If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're 
full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers.


... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his 
environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the 
residential structures to create an urban canyon effect.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:
And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything 
new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything 
given the amount of noise your making.


Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar)in the past:


By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNTor 
similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 
clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at 
least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the 
omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change 
it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and 
have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with 
existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 
segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site 
right now...


Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably 
because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors 
over omnis on anything any day.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


*From: *"Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ,

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than 
NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same 
animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all 
function the same and have the same expected throughputs per 
channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the 
interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates 
to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some 
places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni 
size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450.



Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


Kurt,

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any
differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz
penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but
anything else? All bands are open for me

Thanks

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and
3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had
to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't
resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will
probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons
that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion.
Here are my reasons:

1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more
than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the
latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about
this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best
latency to stick with the 450.
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you
have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can
see each other you won't have sync.
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE
for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby
monitors and trash the whole spectrum.
4.No burst bucket on CPE

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af]

But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing 
APs at the same site is also a very big benefit, not just 
geographic/multi-site.


On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. 
We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers.


... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his 
environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the 
residential structures to create an urban canyon effect.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:
And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything 
new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything 
given the amount of noise your making.


Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar)in the past:


By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNTor 
similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 
clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at 
least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the 
omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change 
it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and 
have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with 
existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 
120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per 
site right now...


Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis 
(presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros 
with sectors over omnis on anything any day.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


*From: *"Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ,

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other 
than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the 
same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They 
all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per 
channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the 
interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference 
is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just 
translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There 
are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of 
the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450.



Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


Kurt,

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any
differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz
penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but
anything else? All bands are open for me

Thanks

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and
3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had
to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't
resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will
probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons
that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion.
Here are my reasons:

1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more
than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the
latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about
this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best
latency to stick with the 450.
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you
have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can
see each other you won't have sync.

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[TJ Trout via Af]

How are you backhauling?

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:42 PM, TJ Trout  wrote:

> Rory,
>
> Do you have any pics of your microcells? how are you mounting them? on
> houses? Tripod?
>
> On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via
> Af  wrote:
>
>>  But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing
>> APs at the same site is also a very big benefit, not just
>> geographic/multi-site.
>>
>>
>> On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
>>
>> If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're
>> full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers.
>>
>> ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his
>> environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential
>> structures to create an urban canyon effect.
>>
>> Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
>> SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com
>>  On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:
>>
>> And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I
>> suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the
>> amount of noise your making.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
>>
>> You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying
>> 450 (and similar) in the past:
>>
>> By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those
>> sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or
>> similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10
>> clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at
>> least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.
>>
>> Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
>> SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com
>>  On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
>>
>> I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni
>> in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to
>> sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the
>> existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing
>> customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP
>> antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now...
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>  Kurt Fankhauser
>> Wavelinc Communications
>> P.O. Box 126
>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>> http://www.wavelinc.com
>> tel. 419-562-6405
>> fax. 419-617-0110
>>
>> On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af  wrote:
>>
>>   I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably
>> because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over
>> omnis on anything any day.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>> --
>> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
>>
>> TJ,
>>
>>  No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than
>> NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal.
>> 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same
>> and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the
>> same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The
>> only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two.
>> That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There
>> are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni
>> size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450.
>>
>>
>>  Kurt Fankhauser
>>
>> Wavelinc Communications
>>
>> P.O. Box 126
>>
>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>>
>> http://www.wavelinc.com
>>
>> tel. 419-562-6405
>>
>> fax. 419-617-0110
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af  wrote:
>>
>>> Kurt,
>>>
>>>  Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any differences at
>>> all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed
>>> and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me
>>>
>>>  Thanks
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 17

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[TJ Trout via Af]

Rory,

Do you have any pics of your microcells? how are you mounting them? on
houses? Tripod?

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af
 wrote:

>  But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing
> APs at the same site is also a very big benefit, not just
> geographic/multi-site.
>
>
> On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
>
> If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're
> full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers.
>
> ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his
> environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential
> structures to create an urban canyon effect.
>
> Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
> SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com
>  On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:
>
> And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I
> suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the
> amount of noise your making.
>
> Mark
>
> On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
>
> You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying
> 450 (and similar) in the past:
>
> By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those
> sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or
> similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10
> clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at
> least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.
>
> Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
> SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com
>  On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
>
> I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in
> to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors.
> The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing
> clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am
> dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant
> afford any more sectors than that per site right now...
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>  Kurt Fankhauser
> Wavelinc Communications
> P.O. Box 126
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
> http://www.wavelinc.com
> tel. 419-562-6405
> fax. 419-617-0110
>
> On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af  wrote:
>
>   I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably
> because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over
> omnis on anything any day.
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
> --
> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
>
> TJ,
>
>  No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS
> range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz
> NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have
> the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same
> firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only
> major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That
> just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are
> some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size
> but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450.
>
>
>  Kurt Fankhauser
>
> Wavelinc Communications
>
> P.O. Box 126
>
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>
> http://www.wavelinc.com
>
> tel. 419-562-6405
>
> fax. 419-617-0110
>
> On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af  wrote:
>
>> Kurt,
>>
>>  Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any differences at
>> all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed
>> and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me
>>
>>  Thanks
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then
>>> middle of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was
>>> so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will
>>> probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I
>>> considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons:
>>>
>>>  1. ePMP latency starts to go 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less.  We 
figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms 
and about 60-70Mbps capacity.  I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when 
they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it’s done by early next year.  If it’s 
delayed further than 1st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s 
A5-360 .  That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which 
pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or 
range issue.   Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than 
sufficient for DFS channels.

 

Rory  

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full 
of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers.

... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by 
using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to 
create an urban canyon effect.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  
I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for 
those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or 
similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients 
per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the 
site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. 
I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change 
it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the 
existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i 
am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford 
any more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af 
 wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are 
deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA 
Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
        Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ, 

 

No difference between the 3 different 
frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are 
all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all 
function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. 
They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across 
all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other 
two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. 
There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the 
omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 




 

   

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

We are using Powerbridges and Nanobridges but I’m changing them out for 
PowerBeams right now.   We use RF shields on all of them.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of TJ Trout via Af
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:43 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

How are you backhauling?

 

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:42 PM, TJ Trout  wrote:

Rory,

 

Do you have any pics of your microcells? how are you mounting them? on houses? 
Tripod?

 

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af 
 wrote:

But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing APs at 
the same site is also a very big benefit, not just geographic/multi-site.



On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. 
We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers.

... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his 
environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential 
structures to create an urban canyon effect.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy 
anything new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything 
given the amount of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never 
considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to 
pay for those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT 
or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients 
per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the 
site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always 
work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are 
there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in 
and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with 
existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP 
antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via 
Af  wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are 
deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA 
Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 

To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 
8:38:14 AM
        Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp 
pros vs cons

TJ, 

 

No difference between the 3 different 
frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are 
all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all 
function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. 
They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across 
all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other 
two. That just 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

I use tripods or sometimes just bolt to refrigeration brackets if they use a 
frame.  I’ll dig  some pictures up tomorrow.  I have to download them to sort 
through them.

 

Rory

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of TJ Trout via Af
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:43 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Rory,

 

Do you have any pics of your microcells? how are you mounting them? on houses? 
Tripod?

 

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af 
 wrote:

But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing APs at 
the same site is also a very big benefit, not just geographic/multi-site.



On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. 
We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers.

... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his 
environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential 
structures to create an urban canyon effect.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy 
anything new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything 
given the amount of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never 
considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to 
pay for those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT 
or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients 
per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the 
site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always 
work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are 
there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in 
and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with 
existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP 
antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via 
Af  wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are 
deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA 
Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 

To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 
8:38:14 AM
        Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp 
pros vs cons

TJ, 

 

No difference between the 3 different 
frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are 
all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all 
function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. 
They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across 
all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other 
two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALO

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Josh Reynolds via Af]

I think many of you have gotten in a rut. You defend GPS sync like you 
don't know how operators can operate or compete without it, which is 
pretty lazy problem solving.


It can bedone, is being done, and will continue to be done. GPS sync is 
avery value tool. In some areas, it is virtually required to operate. In 
ours, it isn't.


There are often may ways to skin the cat.

I'm not saying the PMP450 and others aren't great products, they 
are.Great products can often be expensive though, and that drain on 
cashflow can often be harmful to small businessesif there is another 
method to solve a problem. Sometimes it's more efficient to use a 
shovel, not an excavator.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af wrote:
But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. 
Synchronizing APs at the same site is also a very big benefit, not 
just geographic/multi-site.


On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. 
We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers.


... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his 
environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the 
residential structures to create an urban canyon effect.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:
And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything 
new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything 
given the amount of noise your making.


Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar)in the past:


By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for 
those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying 
UBNTor similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at 
least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub 
densityor at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't 
go there.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the 
omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change 
it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in 
and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites 
with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in 
with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than 
that per site right now...


Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis 
(presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros 
with sectors over omnis on anything any day.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


*From: *"Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ,

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other 
than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the 
same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They 
all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per 
channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the 
interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference 
is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just 
translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There 
are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of 
the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450.



Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


Kurt,

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any
differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz
penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but
anything else? All bands are open for me

Thanks

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I started the spring 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar ) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term , for people deploying UBNT or similar) have 
already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' 
t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable 
repeater, then we don't go there. 


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af 
wrote: 



I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now... 

Sent from my iPhone 


Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 





I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


TJ, 


No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 






Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 



Kurt, 


Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? 
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has 
more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 


Thanks 


On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af < af@afmug.com > 
wrote: 



I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle 
of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I 
couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably 
stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them 
all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 


1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on 
an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. 
Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the 
best latency to stick with the 450. 
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers 
on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients 
fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 
4.No burst bucket on CPE's 
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading 
alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i 
can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do 
site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log 
into the EPMP radios. 
6. For

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

It "eliminates" the need for sectors... by having four sectors in one 
enclosure. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Rory Conaway via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 



We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less. We 
figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms 
and about 60-70Mbps capacity. I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when 
they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it’s done by early next year. If it’s 
delayed further than 1 st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s 
A5-360 . That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which 
pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or 
range issue. Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than 
sufficient for DFS channels. 

Rory 



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full 
of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. 

... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by 
using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to 
create an urban canyon effect. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: 



And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: 



I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now... 

Sent from my iPhone 



Kurt Fankhauser 

Wavelinc Communications 

P.O. Box 126 

Bucyrus, OH 44820 

http://www.wavelinc.com 

tel. 419-562-6405 

fax. 419-617-0110 


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 




I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -


From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

TJ, 



No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 








Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 


On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 



Kurt, 



Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? 
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has 
more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 



Thanks 



On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af < af@afmug.com > 
wrote: 

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle 
of the summer deciding

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

The network I bought is a prime example of "using Canopy doesn't guarantee 
success". Omnis everywhere, Omnis feeding SMs with other omnis behind them. 
$12k backhauls behind a backhaul link with a -87 signal. Generic (not even 
Linksys) networking gear, hubs, etc. 

But hey, he used Cyclones, PTP400s and Redlines so it was good, right? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Ken Hohhof via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:15:38 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 




But there’s the stages of where WISPs have historically gotten their customers: 

1) People getting Internet for the first time 
2) People switching from dialup 
3) People switching from DSL 
4) People switching from satellite 
5) People switching from mobile hotspots 
6) People switching from other WISPs who did things on the cheap 

I guess stage 7 would be deploy fiber and drink everybody’s milkshake. 




From: Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:27 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar ) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term , for people deploying UBNT or similar) have 
already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' 
t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable 
repeater, then we don't go there. 


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af 
wrote: 



I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now... 

Sent from my iPhone 

Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 





I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


TJ, 

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 






Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 



Kurt, 

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? 
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has 
more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 

Thanks 


On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af < af@afmug.com > 
wrote: 



I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle 
of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I 
couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably 
stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them 
all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 

1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on 
an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. 
Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the 
best latency to stick with the 450. 
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers 
on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 
3. No remote spectrum analyzer 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

Four GPS ePMPs with 90* sectors is $2,260. One PMP450 AP without antenna is 
$2,316. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 11:23:00 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 




Huh? are you putting the cheap connectorized CPE on them or the $500 gps sync 
AP on them? 

Sent from my iPhone 


Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 

On Oct 18, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Mike Hammett via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 





The four sectors are still cheaper than one 450 on an omni. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Ken Hohhof via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:41:32 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 




Which problem is easier to fix? You deployed an omni and take rate has been 
phenomenal and you need more capacity? Or you deployed 4 sectors and only have 
5 subs between them? Well, I guess the second one, if the answer is 
decommission the site and redeploy the equipment. 





From: Tyler Treat via Af 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:28 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Afford/justify. Either way I pretty much agree. And I was an omni fanboy. 


___ 
Mangled by my iPhone. 
___ 

Tyler Treat 
Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. 

tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com 
___ 


On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 





I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


TJ, 

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 






Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 



Kurt, 

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? 
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has 
more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 

Thanks 


On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af < af@afmug.com > 
wrote: 



I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle 
of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I 
couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably 
stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them 
all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 

1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on 
an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. 
Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the 
best latency to stick with the 450. 
2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers 
on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 
3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients 
fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 
4.No burst bucket on CPE's 
5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading 
alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i 
can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do 
site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log 
into the EPMP radios. 
6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination 
of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 
7. EPMP i

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Gino Villarini via Af]

On any network, sync is a better rf deployment solution than non sync.

Gino A. Villarini
@gvillarini



On Oct 19, 2014, at 3:23 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I think many of you have gotten in a rut. You defend GPS sync like you don't 
know how operators can operate or compete without it, which is pretty lazy 
problem solving.

It can be done, is being done, and will continue to be done. GPS sync is a very 
value tool. In some areas, it is virtually required to operate. In ours, it 
isn't.

There are often may ways to skin the cat.

I'm not saying the PMP450 and others aren't great products, they are. Great 
products can often be expensive though, and that drain on cashflow can often be 
harmful to small businesses if there is another method to solve a problem. 
Sometimes it's more efficient to use a shovel, not an excavator.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af wrote:
But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing APs at 
the same site is also a very big benefit, not just geographic/multi-site.

On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full 
of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers.

... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by 
using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to 
create an urban canyon effect.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:
And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ,

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450.


Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com<http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:
Kurt,

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any differences at all? 
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has 
more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me

Thanks

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Ku

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

Yea, didn’t know if that information violated the old NDA thing

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:35 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

It "eliminates" the need for sectors...  by having four sectors in one 
enclosure.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 



From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less.  We 
figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms 
and about 60-70Mbps capacity.  I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when 
they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it’s done by early next year.  If it’s 
delayed further than 1st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s 
A5-360 .  That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which 
pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or 
range issue.   Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than 
sufficient for DFS channels.

 

Rory  

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full 
of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers.

... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by 
using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to 
create an urban canyon effect.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  
I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for 
those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or 
similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients 
per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the 
site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. 
I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change 
it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the 
existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i 
am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford 
any more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af 
 wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are 
deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA 
Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ, 

 

No difference between the 3 different 
frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are 
all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightl

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 



From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) 
have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we 
don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a 
valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put 
the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to 
sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing 
clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am 
dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford 
any more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af 
 wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis 
(presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors 
over omnis on anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ, 

 

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands 
(other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same 
animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the 
same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the 
same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only 
major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just 
translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some 
places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but 
overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 




 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/> 

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110

 

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af 
 wrote:

Kurt, 

 

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any 
differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is 
licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 

 

Thanks

 

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via 
Af  wrote:

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz,

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Gino Villarini via Af]

The  other only issue I see with the Mimosa 360 unit is that you loose Mimo

IIrc 1 4x4 radio managed all 4 90deg sectors

Gino A. Villarini
@gvillarini



On Oct 19, 2014, at 11:09 AM, Rory Conaway via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

Yea, didn’t know if that information violated the old NDA thing

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:35 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

It "eliminates" the need for sectors...  by having four sectors in one 
enclosure.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Rory Conaway via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less.  We 
figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms 
and about 60-70Mbps capacity.  I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when 
they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it’s done by early next year.  If it’s 
delayed further than 1st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s 
A5-360 .  That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which 
pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or 
range issue.   Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than 
sufficient for DFS channels.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full 
of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers.

... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by 
using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to 
create an urban canyon effect.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>
On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:
And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:
I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
TJ,

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450.


Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Co

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

Sort of.   Assume the 90 degree antennas have some overlap.  

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:15 AM
To: 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

The  other only issue I see with the Mimosa 360 unit is that you loose Mimo

 

IIrc 1 4x4 radio managed all 4 90deg sectors

Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini

 

 


On Oct 19, 2014, at 11:09 AM, Rory Conaway via Af  wrote:

Yea, didn't know if that information violated the old NDA thing

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:35 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

It "eliminates" the need for sectors...  by having four sectors in one 
enclosure.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less.  
We figure that's good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms 
and about 60-70Mbps capacity.  I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when 
they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it's done by early next year.  If it's 
delayed further than 1st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa's 
A5-360 .  That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which 
pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or 
range issue.   Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than 
sufficient for DFS channels.

 

Rory  

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM
    To: af@afmug.com
        Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. 
We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers.

... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his 
environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential 
structures to create an urban canyon effect.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy 
anything new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything 
given the amount of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never 
considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to 
pay for those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT 
or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients 
per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the 
site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always 
work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are 
there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in 
and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with 
existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP 
antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via 
Af  wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are 
deploying omnis (presumabl

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

I was told that at the booth, so I'm assuming its clear. There's also a hint to 
that in the specs on the web site, "Polarization 4 Panels, Alternating 
Polarization". 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Rory Conaway via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:07:54 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 



Yea, didn’t know if that information violated the old NDA thing 

Rory 



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:35 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


It "eliminates" the need for sectors... by having four sectors in one 
enclosure. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -


From: "Rory Conaway via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 
We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less. We 
figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms 
and about 60-70Mbps capacity. I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when 
they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it’s done by early next year. If it’s 
delayed further than 1 st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s 
A5-360 . That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which 
pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or 
range issue. Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than 
sufficient for DFS channels. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full 
of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. 

... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by 
using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to 
create an urban canyon effect. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: 



And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: 



I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now... 

Sent from my iPhone 



Kurt Fankhauser 

Wavelinc Communications 

P.O. Box 126 

Bucyrus, OH 44820 

http://www.wavelinc.com 

tel. 419-562-6405 

fax. 419-617-0110 


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 




I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

TJ, 



No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but ov

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some 
cooperating and some not responding to anything. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Rory Conaway via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 



I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? 

Rory 



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -


From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar ) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: 



I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now... 

Sent from my iPhone 



Kurt Fankhauser 

Wavelinc Communications 

P.O. Box 126 

Bucyrus, OH 44820 

http://www.wavelinc.com 

tel. 419-562-6405 

fax. 419-617-0110 


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 




I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -


From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

TJ, 



No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 








Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 


On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 

Kurt, 



Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? 
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has 
more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 



Thanks 



On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af < af@afmug.com > 
wrote: 

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle 
of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I 
couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably 
stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them 
all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 



1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on 
an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. 
Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the 
best latency to stick with the 450. 

2. Sync between the t

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

Which then makes it not that valuable.  I think Beam-Forming has more value.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some 
cooperating and some not responding to anything.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 



From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 



From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) 
have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we 
don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a 
valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put 
the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to 
sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing 
clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am 
dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford 
any more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af 
 wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis 
(presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors 
over omnis on anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ, 

 

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands 
(other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same 
animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the 
same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the 
same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only 
major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just 
translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some 
places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but 
overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 




 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/> 

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

I’ve lost track of what I can and can’t say anymore.  “I say Nothing, I jsee 
Nothing!

 

-Sergeant Schultz

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:28 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

I was told that at the booth, so I'm assuming its clear. There's also a hint to 
that in the specs on the web site, "Polarization4 Panels, Alternating 
Polarization".



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 



From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:07:54 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Yea, didn’t know if that information violated the old NDA thing

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:35 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

It "eliminates" the need for sectors...  by having four sectors in one 
enclosure.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 



From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less.  We 
figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms 
and about 60-70Mbps capacity.  I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when 
they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it’s done by early next year.  If it’s 
delayed further than 1st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s 
A5-360 .  That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which 
pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or 
range issue.   Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than 
sufficient for DFS channels.

 

Rory  

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full 
of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers.

... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by 
using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to 
create an urban canyon effect.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  
I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for 
those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or 
similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients 
per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the 
site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. 
I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change 
it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the 
existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i 
am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford 
any more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af 
 wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are 
deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA 
Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
   

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

You lost me, Rory... 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Rory Conaway via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 




Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. 

Rory 



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some 
cooperating and some not responding to anything. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -


From: "Rory Conaway via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 
I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar ) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: 



I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now... 

Sent from my iPhone 



Kurt Fankhauser 

Wavelinc Communications 

P.O. Box 126 

Bucyrus, OH 44820 

http://www.wavelinc.com 

tel. 419-562-6405 

fax. 419-617-0110 


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 




I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

TJ, 



No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 








Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 


On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 

Kurt, 



Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? 
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has 
more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me 



Thanks 



On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af < af@afmug.com > 
wrote: 

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle 
of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various 
reasons, you will have interference.   When more beam-forming options start 
coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the 
trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it.   This is why I don’t like 
towers in high-density areas.  If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells 
until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

You lost me, Rory...



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 



From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons


Which then makes it not that valuable.  I think Beam-Forming has more value.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some 
cooperating and some not responding to anything.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 



From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 



From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) 
have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we 
don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a 
valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put 
the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to 
sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing 
clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am 
dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford 
any more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af 
 wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis 
(presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors 
over omnis on anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
    Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ, 

 

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands 
(other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the s

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Ken Hohhof via Af]

I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync 
sharing frequencies, there wouldn’t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don’t.

It’s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and 
don’t experience traffic jams.  But is that because other people carpool?

You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 
3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band.  Some you can coordinate 
sync with, others you can’t.  So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, 
coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel 
to himself.  Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a 
myth.


From: Rory Conaway via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various 
reasons, you will have interference.   When more beam-forming options start 
coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the 
trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it.   This is why I don’t like 
towers in high-density areas.  If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells 
until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

You lost me, Rory...



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 




From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons


Which then makes it not that valuable.  I think Beam-Forming has more value.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some 
cooperating and some not responding to anything.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 




From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

  You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past:

  By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there.

  Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
  SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

  On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in 
to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 
450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af  wrote:

  I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably 
because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis 
on anything 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[David Milholen via Af]

Its not a matter of what you use but how it was ratcheted to work. It 
may not have been built for what needs are for today but maybe 8 yrs ago 
it was a running system.
 If I had to use what you listed  I could make it work with todays 
demands but it would not have the range.
 I have seen more than 5 wisps come and go here all using 802.11 based 
systems and failed but I dont think it was because of the radio type but 
just lack of knowledge on how to

really deploy them in way that worked for them.


On 10/19/2014 7:42 AM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote:
The network I bought is a prime example of "using Canopy doesn't 
guarantee success". Omnis everywhere, Omnis feeding SMs with other 
omnis behind them. $12k backhauls behind a backhaul link with a -87 
signal. Generic (not even Linksys) networking gear, hubs, etc.


But hey, he used Cyclones, PTP400s and Redlines so it was good, right?



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


*From: *"Ken Hohhof via Af" 
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:15:38 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

But there’s the stages of where WISPs have historically gotten their 
customers:

1)  People getting Internet for the first time
2)  People switching from dialup
3)  People switching from DSL
4)  People switching from satellite
5)  People switching from mobile hotspots
6)  People switching from other WISPs who did things on the cheap
I guess stage 7 would be deploy fiber and drink everybody’s milkshake.
*From:* Josh Reynolds via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:27 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar)in the past:


By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNTor 
similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 
clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at 
least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the
omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change
it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in
and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites
with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in
with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than
that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone
Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis
(presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA
Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


*From: *"Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ,
No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other
than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the
same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz.
They all function the same and have the same expected
throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware
and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only
major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other
two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller
and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz
woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am
still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450.

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

Kurt,
Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Gino Villarini via Af]

Good to point

Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise 
from nonsynced operators

Gino A. Villarini
@gvillarini



On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync 
sharing frequencies, there wouldn’t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don’t.

It’s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and 
don’t experience traffic jams.  But is that because other people carpool?

You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 
3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band.  Some you can coordinate 
sync with, others you can’t.  So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, 
coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel 
to himself.  Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a 
myth.


From: Rory Conaway via Af<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various 
reasons, you will have interference.   When more beam-forming options start 
coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the 
trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it.   This is why I don’t like 
towers in high-density areas.  If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells 
until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

You lost me, Rory...


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Rory Conaway via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Which then makes it not that valuable.  I think Beam-Forming has more value.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some 
cooperating and some not responding to anything.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Rory Conaway via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

No argument but I don't think the value statement is there, especially
with Ubiquiti and ePMP.  At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO,
Beam-forming, and other features in next generation chipsets may change
the design models we are now discussing.  I'm just saying.. J

 

Rory 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via
Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM
To: 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Good to point

 

Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of
noise from nonsynced operators


Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini

 

 


On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af  wrote:

I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use
GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn't be enough spectrum for the
WISPs that don't.

 

It's like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they
drive solo and don't experience traffic jams.  But is that because other
people carpool?

 

You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like
900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band.  Some
you can coordinate sync with, others you can't.  So you call up the
WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let
the non-sync guy have a channel to himself.  Which convinces the
non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth.

 

 

From: Rory Conaway via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>  

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM

To: af@afmug.com 

    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

If you don't have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with
competitors for various reasons, you will have interference.   When more
beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same
tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput
isn't worth it.   This is why I don't like towers in high-density areas.
If I had 12 competitors, I'd have micro-cells until the equipment
catches up with environment which I'm sure is coming.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM
    To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

You lost me, Rory...



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
    Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons


Which then makes it not that valuable.  I think Beam-Forming has
more value.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM
    To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11
based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
    Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

I'm assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
via Af
    Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point
used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP
competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" 
        To: af@afmug.com
    Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy
anything new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do
anything given the amount of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never
considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term)

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

No argument but I don't think the value statement is there, especially
with Ubiquiti and ePMP.  At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO,
Beam-forming, and other features in next generation chipsets may change
the design models we are now discussing.  I'm just saying.. J

 

Rory 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via
Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM
To: 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Good to point

 

Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of
noise from nonsynced operators


Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini

 

 


On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af  wrote:

I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use
GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn't be enough spectrum for the
WISPs that don't.

 

It's like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they
drive solo and don't experience traffic jams.  But is that because other
people carpool?

 

You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like
900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band.  Some
you can coordinate sync with, others you can't.  So you call up the
WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let
the non-sync guy have a channel to himself.  Which convinces the
non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth.

 

 

From: Rory Conaway via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>  

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM

To: af@afmug.com 

    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

If you don't have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with
competitors for various reasons, you will have interference.   When more
beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same
tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput
isn't worth it.   This is why I don't like towers in high-density areas.
If I had 12 competitors, I'd have micro-cells until the equipment
catches up with environment which I'm sure is coming.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM
    To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

You lost me, Rory...



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
    Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons


Which then makes it not that valuable.  I think Beam-Forming has
more value.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM
    To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11
based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
    Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

I'm assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
via Af
    Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point
used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP
competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" 
        To: af@afmug.com
    Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy
anything new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do
anything given the amount of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never
considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term)

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or not. 

If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors. 

Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's fine. You 
still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you have. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Rory Conaway via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 



If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various 
reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start 
coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the 
trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like 
towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells 
until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. 

Rory 



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


You lost me, Rory... 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -


From: "Rory Conaway via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some 
cooperating and some not responding to anything. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Rory Conaway via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 
I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar ) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: 



I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now... 

Sent from my iPhone 



Kurt Fankhauser 

Wavelinc Communications 

P.O. Box 126 

Bucyrus, OH 44820 

http://www.wavelinc.com 

tel. 419-562-6405 

fax. 419-617-0110 


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 




I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

TJ, 



No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are a

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

I think you have my intentions mistaken, Ken. I support sync. I ask for it of 
every manufacturer. I've been asking MT for it for 10 years. Sync is good. 

I do not support an omni 450 being better than ePMP with sectors. 

Sure, the non-sync guys have things to learn, but I think sync has masked some 
sync operators lack of RF knowledge (sectors, reduced beamwidth, reduced 
projected interference, etc.) 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Ken Hohhof via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:26:15 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 




I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync 
sharing frequencies, there wouldn’t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that 
don’t. 

It’s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and 
don’t experience traffic jams. But is that because other people carpool? 

You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 
3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. Some you can coordinate 
sync with, others you can’t. So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, 
coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel 
to himself. Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a 
myth. 





From: Rory Conaway via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 



If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various 
reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start 
coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the 
trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like 
towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells 
until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. 

Rory 



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


You lost me, Rory... 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -


From: "Rory Conaway via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some 
cooperating and some not responding to anything. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Rory Conaway via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 
I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar ) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: 



I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
s

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

The network was in suburban Chicago. It wasn't good when it was built. The 
backhaul that was -87 was of a good brand, so that's all that's of concern, 
right? Not the inability to understand RF and that -87 feeding five other 
towers *AND* another WISP. 

I think by the end of your post, we agree. Knowing how to use the tools will 
get you further than simply having better tools without understanding them. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "David Milholen via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:44:06 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

Its not a matter of what you use but how it was ratcheted to work. It may not 
have been built for what needs are for today but maybe 8 yrs ago it was a 
running system. 
If I had to use what you listed I could make it work with todays demands but it 
would not have the range. 
I have seen more than 5 wisps come and go here all using 802.11 based systems 
and failed but I dont think it was because of the radio type but just lack of 
knowledge on how to 
really deploy them in way that worked for them. 



On 10/19/2014 7:42 AM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: 



The network I bought is a prime example of "using Canopy doesn't guarantee 
success". Omnis everywhere, Omnis feeding SMs with other omnis behind them. 
$12k backhauls behind a backhaul link with a -87 signal. Generic (not even 
Linksys) networking gear, hubs, etc. 

But hey, he used Cyclones, PTP400s and Redlines so it was good, right? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Ken Hohhof via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:15:38 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 




But there’s the stages of where WISPs have historically gotten their customers: 

1) People getting Internet for the first time 
2) People switching from dialup 
3) People switching from DSL 
4) People switching from satellite 
5) People switching from mobile hotspots 
6) People switching from other WISPs who did things on the cheap 

I guess stage 7 would be deploy fiber and drink everybody’s milkshake. 




From: Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:27 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar ) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term , for people deploying UBNT or similar) have 
already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' 
t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable 
repeater, then we don't go there. 


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af 
wrote: 



I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now... 

Sent from my iPhone 

Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 





I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


TJ, 

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 






Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

Of the Mu-MIMO vendors I know of (just one), they still use sync. 

ePMP does use sync. 

Yes, I can't wait for more Mu-MIMO systems (and the one actually shipping) and 
the underlying beamforming (and null forming) that they bring to the table. 
However, all of those systems are made better by sync. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Rory Conaway via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:15:59 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 



No argument but I don’t think the value statement is there, especially with 
Ubiquiti and ePMP. At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO, Beam-forming, and other 
features in next generation chipsets may change the design models we are now 
discussing. I’m just saying…… J 

Rory 



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM 
To:  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Good to point 



Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise 
from nonsynced operators 


Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini 









On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 






I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync 
sharing frequencies, there wouldn’t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that 
don’t. 



It’s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and 
don’t experience traffic jams. But is that because other people carpool? 



You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 
3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. Some you can coordinate 
sync with, others you can’t. So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, 
coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel 
to himself. Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a 
myth. 








From: Rory Conaway via Af 

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM 

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 



If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various 
reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start 
coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the 
trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like 
towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells 
until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


You lost me, Rory... 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Rory Conaway via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some 
cooperating and some not responding to anything. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Rory Conaway via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 
I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar ) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

I think part of our difference here is environment.  I’m in urban areas where 
12 other operators aren’t my biggest issues.  It’s that every AP I have has 300 
houses or more in every direction that have indoor APs, Dish Network whole 
house video, etc…   So, having an AP that has more dynamic features for that is 
more valuable than GPS to me.  I know Cambium is touting that feature on the 
ePMP but it’s just not as important for a microcell.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:19 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or not.

If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors.

Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's fine. You 
still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you have.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 



From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various 
reasons, you will have interference.   When more beam-forming options start 
coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the 
trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it.   This is why I don’t like 
towers in high-density areas.  If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells 
until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

You lost me, Rory...



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 



From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons


Which then makes it not that valuable.  I think Beam-Forming has more value.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some 
cooperating and some not responding to anything.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 



From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 



From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) 
have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we 
don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a 
valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put 
the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to 
sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing 
clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am 
dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford 
any more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Commun

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

I'm not in downtown Chicago, but I am in Chicago's suburbs (in addition to 
rural areas). I can't imagine the density is that much different unless you 
have a higher ratio of townhomes\duplexes\apartments to single family homes. 

I don't disagree that smaller and smaller cells are better for SNR and 
therefore throughput. 

The only modern platforms with smart antennas also have sync. 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Rory Conaway via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:30:00 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 



I think part of our difference here is environment. I’m in urban areas where 12 
other operators aren’t my biggest issues. It’s that every AP I have has 300 
houses or more in every direction that have indoor APs, Dish Network whole 
house video, etc… So, having an AP that has more dynamic features for that is 
more valuable than GPS to me. I know Cambium is touting that feature on the 
ePMP but it’s just not as important for a microcell. 

Rory 



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:19 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or not. 

If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors. 

Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's fine. You 
still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you have. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -


From: "Rory Conaway via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 
If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various 
reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start 
coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the 
trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like 
towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells 
until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


You lost me, Rory... 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Rory Conaway via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some 
cooperating and some not responding to anything. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Rory Conaway via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 
I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar ) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Gino Villarini via Af]

All those afro mentioned benefit from sync.

Mimosa, the latest and greatest pmp (on spec sheet) has GPS sync

Canopy, 3G, 4G, Wimax, LTE... All use sync for a reason

Lots WiFi based suppliers are moving to sync..

No way around it, FCC should have mandated a form of sync for unlicensed

Just imagine how much spectrum we would have available if WiFi had sync

Gino A. Villarini
@gvillarini



On Oct 19, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Rory Conaway via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

No argument but I don’t think the value statement is there, especially with 
Ubiquiti and ePMP.  At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO, Beam-forming, and 
other features in next generation chipsets may change the design models we are 
now discussing.  I’m just saying…… :)

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM
To: mailto:af@afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Good to point

Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise 
from nonsynced operators

Gino A. Villarini
@gvillarini



On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:
I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync 
sharing frequencies, there wouldn’t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don’t.

It’s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and 
don’t experience traffic jams.  But is that because other people carpool?

You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 
3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band.  Some you can coordinate 
sync with, others you can’t.  So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, 
coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel 
to himself.  Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a 
myth.


From: Rory Conaway via Af<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various 
reasons, you will have interference.   When more beam-forming options start 
coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the 
trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it.   This is why I don’t like 
towers in high-density areas.  If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells 
until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

You lost me, Rory...


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Rory Conaway via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Which then makes it not that valuable.  I think Beam-Forming has more value.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some 
cooperating and some not responding to anything.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Rory Conaway via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Ken Hohhof via Af]

Yeah, competing with all the consumer stuff has to be a challenge.

I had an interesting experience with the Boy Scout campout this weekend.  It’s 
in a rural county park, so not competing with consumer WiFi.  I put up a dished 
5.7 SM to our tower, then used 5.4 GHz PTP Nanostation links to feed each 
picnic shelter, with a Mikrotik 951 in each picnic shelter, each on a separate 
2.4 channel.  Except then the ham radio guys pull up their RV and fire up their 
HP Bullet and omni fed by a Cradlepoint router with a cellular modem to show me 
how much better their solution was.  So they probably wiped out 1 or 2 of the 
channels I was using.  Yikes.


From: Rory Conaway via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:30 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

I think part of our difference here is environment.  I’m in urban areas where 
12 other operators aren’t my biggest issues.  It’s that every AP I have has 300 
houses or more in every direction that have indoor APs, Dish Network whole 
house video, etc…   So, having an AP that has more dynamic features for that is 
more valuable than GPS to me.  I know Cambium is touting that feature on the 
ePMP but it’s just not as important for a microcell.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:19 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or not.

If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors.

Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's fine. You 
still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you have.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 




From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various 
reasons, you will have interference.   When more beam-forming options start 
coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the 
trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it.   This is why I don’t like 
towers in high-density areas.  If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells 
until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

You lost me, Rory...



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 




From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons


Which then makes it not that valuable.  I think Beam-Forming has more value.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some 
cooperating and some not responding to anything.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 




From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

  You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past:

  By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or s

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Jason McKemie via Af]

I've been doing micropops for about 7+ years now. I mainly started using
that model because it enabled me to reach places that I otherwise couldn't.
The added SNR and corresponding throughput is a nice side effect though.
Customers also like smaller antennas/radios and the mounts that go with
them as well.

On Sunday, October 19, 2014, Mike Hammett via Af  wrote:

> I'm not in downtown Chicago, but I am in Chicago's suburbs (in addition to
> rural areas). I can't imagine the density is that much different unless you
> have a higher ratio of townhomes\duplexes\apartments to single family homes.
>
> I don't disagree that smaller and smaller cells are better for SNR and
> therefore throughput.
>
> The only modern platforms with smart antennas also have sync.
>
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
> --
> *From: *"Rory Conaway via Af"  >
> *To: *af@afmug.com 
> *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:30:00 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
>
> I think part of our difference here is environment.  I’m in urban areas
> where 12 other operators aren’t my biggest issues.  It’s that every AP I
> have has 300 houses or more in every direction that have indoor APs, Dish
> Network whole house video, etc…   So, having an AP that has more dynamic
> features for that is more valuable than GPS to me.  I know Cambium is
> touting that feature on the ePMP but it’s just not as important for a
> microcell.
>
>
>
> Rory
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
> ] *On Behalf Of *Mike
> Hammett via Af
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:19 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
>
>
>
> Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or
> not.
>
> If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors.
>
> Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's
> fine. You still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you
> have.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
> --
>
> *From: *"Rory Conaway via Af"  >
> *To: *af@afmug.com 
> *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
>
> If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for
> various reasons, you will have interference.   When more beam-forming
> options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but
> little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it.
> This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas.  If I had 12
> competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with
> environment which I’m sure is coming.
>
>
>
> Rory
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
> ] *On Behalf Of *Mike
> Hammett via Af
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
>
>
>
> You lost me, Rory...
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
> --
>
> *From: *"Rory Conaway via Af"  >
> *To: *af@afmug.com 
> *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
>
>
> Which then makes it not that valuable.  I think Beam-Forming has more
> value.
>
>
>
> Rory
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
> ] *On Behalf Of *Mike
> Hammett via Af
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
>
>
>
> Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with
> some cooperating and some not responding to anything.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
> --
>
> *From: *"Rory Conaway via Af"  >
> *To: *af@afmug.com 
> *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
>
> I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?
>
>
>
> Rory
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
> ] *On Behalf Of *Mike
> Hammett via Af
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
>
>
>
> Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up u

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

Depends on what you need the sync for.  We are almost finished with our
upgrade that is demonstrating up to 40Mbps right now and that's will
limited rocket 5M's.   With omni's, I'm just saying it's not that
important.

 

Rory

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via
Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:05 AM
To: 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

All those afro mentioned benefit from sync.

 

Mimosa, the latest and greatest pmp (on spec sheet) has GPS sync 

 

Canopy, 3G, 4G, Wimax, LTE... All use sync for a reason 

 

Lots WiFi based suppliers are moving to sync..

 

No way around it, FCC should have mandated a form of sync for unlicensed

 

Just imagine how much spectrum we would have available if WiFi had sync


Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini

 

 


On Oct 19, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Rory Conaway via Af  wrote:

No argument but I don't think the value statement is there,
especially with Ubiquiti and ePMP.  At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO,
Beam-forming, and other features in next generation chipsets may change
the design models we are now discussing.  I'm just saying.. J

 

Rory 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino
Villarini via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM
    To: 
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Good to point

 

Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with
lots of noise from nonsynced operators


Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini

 

 


On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af 
wrote:

I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs
that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn't be enough spectrum
for the WISPs that don't.

 

It's like someone disputing the value of carpooling
because they drive solo and don't experience traffic jams.  But is that
because other people carpool?

 

You experience interference in a band with limited
spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the
band.  Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can't.  So you call
up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing,
and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself.  Which convinces the
non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth.

 

 

From: Rory Conaway via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>  

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM

        To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

If you don't have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with
competitors for various reasons, you will have interference.   When more
beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same
tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput
isn't worth it.   This is why I don't like towers in high-density areas.
If I had 12 competitors, I'd have micro-cells until the equipment
catches up with environment which I'm sure is coming.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM
    To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

You lost me, Rory...



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Rory Conaway via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
        Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons


Which then makes it not that valuable.  I think
Beam-Forming has more value.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are
802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Josh Reynolds via Af]

LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:


I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af
*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used 
Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP 
competitors.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



*From: *"Mark Radabaugh via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything 
new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything 
given the amount of noise your making.


Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered
deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for
those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying
UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and
at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub
densityor at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we
don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put
the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are
there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to
drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I
have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a
two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant
afford any more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis
(presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA
Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com




*From: *"Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ,

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands
(other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they
are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better
than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the
same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use
the same firmware and i love the interface being the same
across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H
versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the
5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some
places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of
the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the
2.4ghz 450.


Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

Kurt,

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any
differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz
penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum
but anything else? All bands are open for me

Thanks

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5g

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Josh Reynolds via Af]

The website describes it pretty well Rory.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/19/2014 08:07 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:


Yea, didn’t know if that information violated the old NDA thing

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af
*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:35 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

It "eliminates" the need for sectors...  by having four sectors in one 
enclosure.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



*From: *"Rory Conaway via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or 
less.  We figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels 
with on Rocket 5Ms and about 60-70Mbps capacity.  I might change to 
Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when they get a stable PTMP firmware 
assuming it’s done by early next year.  If it’s delayed further than 
1^st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s A5-360 .  That 
bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which pretty 
much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or 
range issue.   Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more 
than sufficient for DFS channels.


Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds 
via Af

*Sent:* Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. 
We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers.


... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his 
environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the 
residential structures to create an urban canyon effect.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote:

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything
new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do
anything given the amount of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered
deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for
those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people
deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded
sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can
hit a decent sub densityor at least make the site a valuable
repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll
put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers
are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very
easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i
am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP
antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site
right now...

Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying
omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs.
Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on
anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com




*From: *"Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
    *To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ,

No difference between the 3 different fre

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Josh Reynolds via Af]

I think one of the biggest features there thatMimosa is working on is a 
drumthey haven't even beat that hard yet...


They're working ondoing the frequency plan for you. (This is on the 
website, and in WISPAPALOOZA promo material..)


When you have a system that is constantly performing scanning and 
reporting back to a controller, you get some excellent ideas about what 
you candeployand where. You will get to the point where you don't 
actually have to pick a channel anymore, as their system doesn't just 
know what channels you are using, but it knows the signal levels for the 
channels you aren't.


The biggest concern I have with this though, and I need to ask Larry or 
somebody, is if they are going to be collecting this info from the 
stations as well -- this is very important.


Hearing the stations isone thing, but remember that's only around 20% or 
so of your network traffic. It's much more important that the stations 
have a better SNR to the APs thanthe other way around.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/19/2014 10:16 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:


No argument but I don�t think the value statement is there, especially 
with Ubiquiti and ePMP.  At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO, 
Beam-forming, and other features in next generation chipsets may 
change the design models we are now discussing.  I�m just saying�� J


Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Gino Villarini 
via Af

*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM
*To:* 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Good to point

Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of 
noise from nonsynced operators



Gino A. Villarini

@gvillarini


On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use
GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn�t be enough spectrum
for the WISPs that don�t.

It�s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they
drive solo and don�t experience traffic jams.  But is that because
other people carpool?

You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like
900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. 
Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can�t.  So you call

up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and
timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself.  Which
convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth.

*From:*Rory Conaway via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>

*Sent:*Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM

*To:*af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

If you don�t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors
for various reasons, you will have interference.   When more
beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the
same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced
throughput isn�t worth it.   This is why I don�t like towers in
high-density areas.  If I had 12 competitors, I�d have micro-cells
until the equipment catches up with environment which I�m sure is
coming.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike
Hammett via Af
*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM
    *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

You lost me, Rory...



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



*From: *"Rory Conaway via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons


Which then makes it not that valuable.  I think Beam-Forming has
more value.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike
Hammett via Af
*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM
    *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11
based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



*From: *"Rory Conaway via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
    *To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

I�m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

Rory

*F

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see everyone sitting 
around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another reason I don’t worry about GPS.   
My next article covers my main reason.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used 
Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  
I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered 
deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for 
those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or 
similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients 
per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the 
site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. 
I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change 
it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the 
existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i 
am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford 
any more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af 
 wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are 
deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA 
Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
        Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

TJ, 

 

No difference between the 3 different 
frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are 
all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all 
function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. 
They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across 
all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other 
two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. 
There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because o

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Gino Villarini via Af]

So it's Roy against the world of sync 😀

Gino A. Villarini
@gvillarini



On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see everyone sitting 
around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another reason I don’t worry about GPS.   
My next article covers my main reason.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>
On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:
I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:
I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
TJ,

No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450.


Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com<http://www.wavelinc.com/>

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110

On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:
Kurt,

Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5?  Any differences at all? 
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has 
more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me

Thanks

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:
I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle 
of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I 
couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will prob

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Josh Reynolds via Af]

Need to get something out...

Our industry, like many others, doesn't stagnate for long.

Right now we're on the edge of a new generation of radio tech, with 
bitlomat (cross-vendor softwarewith performance gains, gps sync, 
802.11ac but down to the PHY layer) ubiquiti (airprism, tdma offloading, 
*possible* gps sync), and mimosa (too much to list) leading that charge. 
At least two of those vendors have had working beamforming for several 
years now(both TX and antenna based). These three are currently working 
on things that are outpacing MikroTik, the ePMP product, and othersby 
anywhere from 1/2 gen to 1 full hardware gen beyond everybody else.


I'd guess we're about 1 year off to being able to provide reliable 
100Mbps to the home, with 250Mbps (or more) roughly 2-3 years behind 
thatin PtMP, depending on various factors. That said, this is JUST the 
802.11ac based stuff.


There is at least one vendor up there on that list who will be 
manufacturing their own radios soon as well.


Vendors will continue to come out with new tech every ~ 3 years. Their 
tech may be light years ahead of other vendors, and it's very likely 
they won't play well together in terms of general base tech or GPS sync.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/19/2014 02:11 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:


Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see everyone 
sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t 
worry about GPS.   My next article covers my main reason.


Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds 
via Af

*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike
Hammett via Af
*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point
used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12
WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



*From: *"Mark Radabaugh via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything
new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do
anything given the amount of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered
deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for
those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people
deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded
sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can
hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable
repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll
put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers
are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very
easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i
am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP
antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site
right now...

Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying
omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs.
Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on
anything any day.

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

Ahh, difference of philosophies.  I just don’t want my business dependent on 
competitors or single suppliers.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

So it's Roy against the world of sync 😀

Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini

 

 


On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af  wrote:

Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see everyone 
sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another reason I don’t worry about 
GPS.   My next article covers my main reason.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike 
Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point 
used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP 
competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy 
anything new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything 
given the amount of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never 
considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to 
pay for those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT 
or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients 
per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the 
site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always 
work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are 
there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in 
and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with 
existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP 
antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via 
Af  wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are 
deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA 
Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" 

  

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Paul McCall via Af]

For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450.  NOT the initial 
cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world.  
Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct 
strike, we can’t repair any of it.  On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 
Ghz, so 8 APs each.  Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 
4.  Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. 
(most towers are a less than that and some are more).  So, if I lose $ 8K in 
APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue 
just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.)  We have had commercial, 
well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months 
(probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year.  That 
makes NO sense to play that game.

And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs.  We have had 
4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs.  
Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly 
as big of an impact.

So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my 
losses by 80%.  That’s a big deal !

Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands.

Paul


From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

So it's Roy against the world of sync 😀

Gino A. Villarini
@gvillarini



On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:
Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see everyone sitting 
around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another reason I don’t worry about GPS.   
My next article covers my main reason.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>
On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:
I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:
I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
TJ,

No 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Chuck McCown via Af]

RF will always require decent SNR, bandwidth and a path.   No matter how 
advanced the radios get, they will be up against Nyquest and Shannon and 
Maxwell.  

And like many other industries, the bandwidth requirements and new products 
available to the customers will not stagnate either.  

I see that RF is continuing toward the asymptote that terminates in various 
versions of LTE.  Look at the bits per hz evolution and LTE is kinda the end of 
the practical road.  

In the meantime, cellular carriers are dropping microwave backhaul like it has 
ebola and connecting towers with fiber.  

I don’t doubt that RF will eventually allow cost effective CPE to get a 
reliable 100 Mbps to every house if the APs are close, interference is down and 
the APs are lightly loaded.  And people will pay good money for that for years 
to come.

In the meantime, I am rolling out GigE over fiber to the customer and a nearby 
competitor, Veracity, is advertising 10 Gpbs.  And we have 4K TVs on the market 
with higher resolutions in the pipe.  

Look at the number of people on this list that are doing fiber.  Be fun to 
graph that over time.  Anyone remember the mile long threads where it was me VS 
 - on this subject?  10 years ago people thought I was telling tall 
tales.  And  was sure that we would all die if we didn’t do usage based 
billing.   

From: Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:28 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Need to get something out...

Our industry, like many others, doesn't stagnate for long.

Right now we're on the edge of a new generation of radio tech, with bitlomat 
(cross-vendor software with performance gains, gps sync, 802.11ac but down to 
the PHY layer) ubiquiti (airprism, tdma offloading, *possible* gps sync), and 
mimosa (too much to list) leading that charge. At least two of those vendors 
have had working beamforming for several years now (both TX and antenna based). 
These three are currently working on things that are outpacing MikroTik, the 
ePMP product, and others by anywhere from 1/2 gen to 1 full hardware gen beyond 
everybody else.

I'd guess we're about 1 year off to being able to provide reliable 100Mbps to 
the home, with 250Mbps (or more) roughly 2-3 years behind that in PtMP, 
depending on various factors. That said, this is JUST the 802.11ac based stuff.

There is at least one vendor up there on that list who will be manufacturing 
their own radios soon as well.

Vendors will continue to come out with new tech every ~ 3 years. Their tech may 
be light years ahead of other vendors, and it's very likely they won't play 
well together in terms of general base tech or GPS sync.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/19/2014 02:11 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

  Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see everyone 
sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another reason I don’t worry about 
GPS.   My next article covers my main reason.

   

  Rory

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
  Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

   

  LOL :)

  Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
  SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

  On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used 
Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

  You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 
450 (and similar) in the past:

  By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) 
have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we 
don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a 
valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

  Josh Reynolds, Chief Information

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

Yes, I saw the spectrum analyzer from the client end as well. The past 24 hours 
of history. Not sure if it takes the client end into account when picking a 
channel. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Josh Reynolds via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:03:07 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


I thin k one of the biggest features there that Mimosa is working on is a drum 
they haven't even b eat that hard yet... 

They're work ing on doing the freq uency plan for you. (This is on the website, 
and in WISPAPALOOZA promo material..) 

When you have a system that is constantly performing scanning and reporting 
back to a c ontroller, you get some excellent ideas about what you can deploy 
and where. You will ge t to the point where you don't actually have to pick a 
channel anymore , as their system doesn't just know what channels you are 
using, but it knows the signal levels for the channels you aren't. 

The biggest concern I ha ve with this though, and I need to ask Larry or 
somebody, is if they are going to be collecting this info from the stations as 
well -- this is very important. 

Hearing the stations is one thing, but remember that's only around 20% or so of 
your network traffic. It's much more important that the stations have a better 
SNR to the APs than the other way around. 



Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:16 AM, Rory Conaway via Af 
wrote: 




No argument but I don�t think the value statement is there, especially with 
Ubiquiti and ePMP.� At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO, Beam-forming, and 
other features in next generation chipsets may change the design models we are 
now discussing.� I�m just saying�� J 
� 
Rory 
� 


From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM 
To:  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 
� 

Good to point 

� 

Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise 
from nonsynced operators 


Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini 

� 




� 


On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 






I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync 
sharing frequencies, there wouldn�t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that 
don�t. 

� 

It�s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo 
and don�t experience traffic jams.� But is that because other people 
carpool? 

� 

You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 
3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band.� Some you can coordinate 
sync with, others you can�t.� So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, 
coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel 
to himself.� Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a 
myth. 

� 



� 


From: Rory Conaway via Af 

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM 

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

� 

If you don�t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various 
reasons, you will have interference.�� When more beam-forming options start 
coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the 
trade-off with reduced throughput isn�t worth it.�� This is why I don�t 
like towers in high-density areas.� If I had 12 competitors, I�d have 
micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I�m sure is 
coming. 
� 
Rory 
� 


From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 
� 

You lost me, Rory... 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 
� 



From: "Rory Conaway via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

Which then makes it not that valuable.� I think Beam-Forming has more value. 
� 
Rory 
� 


From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 
� 

Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some 
cooperating and some not responding to anything. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 
� 



From: "Rory Conaway via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 
I�m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? 
� 
Rory 
�

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

You don't have to sync with other vendors or even your competition. It helps, 
though. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Josh Reynolds via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:28:18 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Need to get something out... 

Our industry, like many others, doesn't stagnate for long. 

Right now we're on the edge of a new generation of radio tech, with bitlomat 
(cross-vendor softwar e with performance gains, gps sync, 802.11ac but down to 
the PHY layer) ubiquiti (airprism, tdma offloading, *possible* gps sync), and 
mimosa (too much to list) leading that charge. At least two of those vendors 
have had working beamforming for several years now (both TX and antenna based). 
These three are currently workin g on things that are outpacing MikroTik, the 
ePMP product, and others by anywhere from 1/2 gen to 1 full hardware gen beyond 
everybody else. 

I'd guess we're about 1 year off to being able to provide reliable 100Mbps to 
the home , with 250Mbps (or more) roughly 2-3 years behind that in PtMP, 
depending on various fa ctors. That said, this is JUST the 802.11ac based 
stuff. 

There is at least one vendor up there on that list who will b e manufacturing 
their own radios soon as well. 

Vendors will continue to come out with new tech every ~ 3 years. Their tech may 
be light years ahead of other vendors, and it's very likely they won't play 
well together in terms of general base tech or GPS sync. 



Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 02:11 PM, Rory Conaway via Af 
wrote: 




Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting 
around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My 
next article covers my main reason. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


LOL :) 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: 


I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: 



I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now... 

Sent from my iPhone 



Kurt Fankhauser 

Wavelinc Communications 

P.O. Box 126 

Bucyrus, OH 44820 

http://www.wavelinc.com 

tel. 419-562-6405 

fax. 419-617-0110 


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 




I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

TJ, 



No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (o

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

Then you miss out on the best performance. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Rory Conaway via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 



Ahh, difference of philosophies. I just don’t want my business dependent on 
competitors or single suppliers. 

Rory 



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM 
To:  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


So it's Roy against the world of sync  

Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini 









On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 



Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting 
around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My 
next article covers my main reason. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


LOL :) 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: 


I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: 



I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now... 

Sent from my iPhone 



Kurt Fankhauser 

Wavelinc Communications 

P.O. Box 126 

Bucyrus, OH 44820 

http://www.wavelinc.com 

tel. 419-562-6405 

fax. 419-617-0110 


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 




I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because 
they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on 
anything any day. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

TJ, 



No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) 
as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is 
slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same 
expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i 
love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is 
the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz 
omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 
2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very 
happy with the 2.4ghz 450. 








Kurt Fankhauser 
Wavelinc Communications 
P.O. Box 126 
Bucyrus, OH 44820 
http://www.wavelinc.com 
tel. 419-562-6405 
fax. 419-617-0110 


On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 

Kurt, 



Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? 
Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed an

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

Fiber is the future for most, but it won't be for all and the continued 
advancements in wireless will push off the need for it. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 6:21:09 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 




RF will always require decent SNR, bandwidth and a path. No matter how advanced 
the radios get, they will be up against Nyquest and Shannon and Maxwell. 

And like many other industries, the bandwidth requirements and new products 
available to the customers will not stagnate either. 

I see that RF is continuing toward the asymptote that terminates in various 
versions of LTE. Look at the bits per hz evolution and LTE is kinda the end of 
the practical road. 

In the meantime, cellular carriers are dropping microwave backhaul like it has 
ebola and connecting towers with fiber. 

I don’t doubt that RF will eventually allow cost effective CPE to get a 
reliable 100 Mbps to every house if the APs are close, interference is down and 
the APs are lightly loaded. And people will pay good money for that for years 
to come. 

In the meantime, I am rolling out GigE over fiber to the customer and a nearby 
competitor, Veracity, is advertising 10 Gpbs. And we have 4K TVs on the market 
with higher resolutions in the pipe. 

Look at the number of people on this list that are doing fiber. Be fun to graph 
that over time. Anyone remember the mile long threads where it was me VS  
- on this subject? 10 years ago people thought I was telling tall tales. 
And  was sure that we would all die if we didn’t do usage based billing. 




From: Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:28 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Need to get something out... 

Our industry, like many others, doesn't stagnate for long. 

Right now we're on the edge of a new generation of radio tech, with bitlomat 
(cross-vendor softwar e with performance gains, gps sync, 802.11ac but down to 
the PHY layer) ubiquiti (airprism, tdma offloading, *possible* gps sync), and 
mimosa (too much to list) leading that charge. At least two of those vendors 
have had working beamforming for several years now (both TX and antenna based). 
These three are currently workin g on things that are outpacing MikroTik, the 
ePMP product, and others by anywhere from 1/2 gen to 1 full hardware gen beyond 
everybody else. 

I'd guess we're about 1 year off to being able to provide reliable 100Mbps to 
the home , with 250Mbps (or more) roughly 2-3 years behind that in PtMP, 
depending on various fa ctors. That said, this is JUST the 802.11ac based 
stuff. 

There is at least one vendor up there on that list who will b e manufacturing 
their own radios soon as well. 

Vendors will continue to come out with new tech every ~ 3 years. Their tech may 
be light years ahead of other vendors, and it's very likely they won't play 
well together in terms of general base tech or GPS sync. 



Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 02:11 PM, Rory Conaway via Af 
wrote: 




Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting 
around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My 
next article covers my main reason. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


LOL :) 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: 


I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have a

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Josh Reynolds via Af]

Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you 
have very good performance without the crappy latency hit.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote:

Then you miss out on the best performance.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


*From: *"Rory Conaway via Af" 
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Ahh, difference of philosophies.  I just don’t want my business 
dependent on competitors or single suppliers.


Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Gino Villarini 
via Af

*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM
*To:* 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

So it's Roy against the world of sync 

Gino A. Villarini

@gvillarini


On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see
everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another
reason I don’t worry about GPS.   My next article covers my main
reason.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh
Reynolds via Af
*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike
Hammett via Af
*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
        *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this
point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets
with 12 WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



*From: *"Mark Radabaugh via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy
anything new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else
can do anything given the amount of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never
considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay
for those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people
deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6
shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't
think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the
site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out.
I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the
customers are there change it to sectors. The 450
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the
existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites
with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450
system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any
more sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying
omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs.
Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on
anything any day.

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

Fiber isn’t practice in urban areas and that would have me competing with the 
wireline boys that are there.  

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:35 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Fiber is the future for most, but it won't be for all and the continued 
advancements in wireless will push off the need for it.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 



From: "Chuck McCown via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 6:21:09 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

RF will always require decent SNR, bandwidth and a path.   No matter how 
advanced the radios get, they will be up against Nyquest and Shannon and 
Maxwell.  

 

And like many other industries, the bandwidth requirements and new products 
available to the customers will not stagnate either.  

 

I see that RF is continuing toward the asymptote that terminates in various 
versions of LTE.  Look at the bits per hz evolution and LTE is kinda the end of 
the practical road.  

 

In the meantime, cellular carriers are dropping microwave backhaul like it has 
ebola and connecting towers with fiber.  

 

I don’t doubt that RF will eventually allow cost effective CPE to get a 
reliable 100 Mbps to every house if the APs are close, interference is down and 
the APs are lightly loaded.  And people will pay good money for that for years 
to come.

 

In the meantime, I am rolling out GigE over fiber to the customer and a nearby 
competitor, Veracity, is advertising 10 Gpbs.  And we have 4K TVs on the market 
with higher resolutions in the pipe.  

 

Look at the number of people on this list that are doing fiber.  Be fun to 
graph that over time.  Anyone remember the mile long threads where it was me VS 
 - on this subject?  10 years ago people thought I was telling tall 
tales.  And  was sure that we would all die if we didn’t do usage based 
billing.   

 

From: Josh Reynolds via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>  

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:28 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Need to get something out...

Our industry, like many others, doesn't stagnate for long.

Right now we're on the edge of a new generation of radio tech, with bitlomat 
(cross-vendor software with performance gains, gps sync, 802.11ac but down to 
the PHY layer) ubiquiti (airprism, tdma offloading, *possible* gps sync), and 
mimosa (too much to list) leading that charge. At least two of those vendors 
have had working beamforming for several years now (both TX and antenna based). 
These three are currently working on things that are outpacing MikroTik, the 
ePMP product, and others by anywhere from 1/2 gen to 1 full hardware gen beyond 
everybody else.

I'd guess we're about 1 year off to being able to provide reliable 100Mbps to 
the home, with 250Mbps (or more) roughly 2-3 years behind that in PtMP, 
depending on various factors. That said, this is JUST the 802.11ac based stuff.

There is at least one vendor up there on that list who will be manufacturing 
their own radios soon as well.

Vendors will continue to come out with new tech every ~ 3 years. Their tech may 
be light years ahead of other vendors, and it's very likely they won't play 
well together in terms of general base tech or GPS sync.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/19/2014 02:11 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see everyone 
sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another reason I don’t worry about 
GPS.   My next article covers my main reason.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
    To: af@afmug.com
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike 
Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
        Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point 
used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP 
competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Comput

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Ken Hohhof via Af]

Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend 
using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building 
or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting.

From: Paul McCall via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450.  NOT the initial 
cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world.  
Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct 
strike, we can’t repair any of it.  On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 
Ghz, so 8 APs each.  Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 
4.  Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. 
(most towers are a less than that and some are more).  So, if I lose $ 8K in 
APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue 
just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.)  We have had commercial, 
well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months 
(probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year.  That 
makes NO sense to play that game.  

 

And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs.  We have had 
4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs.  
Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly 
as big of an impact.  

 

So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my 
losses by 80%.  That’s a big deal !

 

Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands.

 

Paul

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

So it's Roy against the world of sync 😀

Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini

 

 


On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af  wrote:

  Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see everyone 
sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another reason I don’t worry about 
GPS.   My next article covers my main reason.

   

  Rory

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
  Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

   

  LOL :)

  Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
  SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

  On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used 
Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

  You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 
450 (and similar) in the past:

  By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) 
have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we 
don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a 
valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

  Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
  SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

  On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni 
in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. 
The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients 
link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a 
two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more 
sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Wavelinc Communications

P.O. Box 126

Bucyrus, OH 44820

http://www.wavelinc.com

tel. 419-562-6405

fax. 419-617-0110


On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af  wrote:

  I've noticed a lot of PMP o

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

I’m about to launch a 5 hop PowerBeam Backhaul at 100Mbps with a 150Mbps 
circuit.  We test 3 hops and latency was less than 10ms average with TS-5’s 
between them.  Finishing the next 2 on Tuesday or Wednesday.  Been doing it for 
years so not sure of the management issue.  We were in small areas though, not 
tens of miles across the country side.

 

Rory 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tyler Treat via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:10 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

What's your Backhaul strategy for having this many sites.  How many hops do you 
get from fiber?  With a ton of small sites, it seems like it would scale to an 
unmanageable level very quickly...?

___

Mangled by my iPhone.

___

 

Tyler Treat

Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. 

 

tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com

___

 


On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:52 PM, Rory Conaway via Af  wrote:

+1.  I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic little 
Rocket 5M’s and nothing special.  Imagine what happens when the Rocket AC or 
Mimosa come out with their products.  

Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen numbers 
like 84% of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t.  

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you 
have very good performance without the crappy latency hit.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote:

Then you miss out on the best performance.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Rory Conaway via Af"  
<mailto:af@afmug.com> 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Ahh, difference of philosophies.  I just don’t want my business 
dependent on competitors or single suppliers.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino 
Villarini via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM
To:  <mailto:af@afmug.com> 
        Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

So it's Roy against the world of sync 

Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini

 

 


On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af  
wrote:

Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just 
didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another reason 
I don’t worry about GPS.   My next article covers my main reason.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of 
Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com
            Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each 
other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On 
Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
            Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up 
until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 
12 WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Stefan Englhardt via Af]

At least they are fast replacable ;-)).



This products do not arrive before next year. Pricing is not clear.





- GENIAS INTERNET --  <http://www.genias.net> www.genias.net --

Stefan Englhardt Email:  <mailto:s...@genias.net> s...@genias.net

Dr. Gesslerstr. 20   D-93051 Regensburg

Tel: +49 941 942798-0Fax: +49 941 942798-9



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof via Af
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 7:06 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons



Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend 
using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building 
or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting.



From: Paul McCall via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM

To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons



For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450.  NOT the initial 
cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world.  
Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct 
strike, we can’t repair any of it.  On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 
Ghz, so 8 APs each.  Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 
4.  Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. 
(most towers are a less than that and some are more).  So, if I lose $ 8K in 
APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue 
just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.)  We have had commercial, 
well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months 
(probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year.  That 
makes NO sense to play that game.



And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs.  We have had 
4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs.  
Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly 
as big of an impact.



So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my 
losses by 80%.  That’s a big deal !



Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands.



Paul





From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM
To: mailto:af@afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons



So it's Roy against the world of sync 😀

Gino A. Villarini

@gvillarini






On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af mailto:af@afmug.com> > wrote:

Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see everyone sitting 
around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another reason I don’t worry about GPS.   
My next article covers my main reason.



Rory



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons



LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?



Rory



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons



Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com




  _


From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com> >
To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platfor

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Tyler Treat via Af]

What's your Backhaul strategy for having this many sites.  How many hops do you 
get from fiber?  With a ton of small sites, it seems like it would scale to an 
unmanageable level very quickly...?

___
Mangled by my iPhone.
___

Tyler Treat
Corn Belt Technologies, Inc.

tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com<mailto:tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com>
___


On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:52 PM, Rory Conaway via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

+1.  I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic little Rocket 
5M’s and nothing special.  Imagine what happens when the Rocket AC or Mimosa 
come out with their products.
Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen numbers like 84% 
of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you have very 
good performance without the crappy latency hit.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>
On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote:
Then you miss out on the best performance.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Rory Conaway via Af" <mailto:af@afmug.com>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Ahh, difference of philosophies.  I just don’t want my business dependent on 
competitors or single suppliers.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM
To: <mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

So it's Roy against the world of sync 

Gino A. Villarini
@gvillarini



On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:
Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see everyone sitting 
around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another reason I don’t worry about GPS.   
My next article covers my main reason.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>
On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:
I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:
I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone

Kurt Fankhauser
Wavelinc Communications
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
http://www.wavelinc.com
tel. 419-562-6405
fax. 419-617-0110

On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af 
mailto:af@afmug

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

+1.  I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic little Rocket 
5M’s and nothing special.  Imagine what happens when the Rocket AC or Mimosa 
come out with their products.  

Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen numbers like 84% 
of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t.  

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you have very 
good performance without the crappy latency hit.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote:

Then you miss out on the best performance.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Rory Conaway via Af"  <mailto:af@afmug.com> 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Ahh, difference of philosophies.  I just don’t want my business 
dependent on competitors or single suppliers.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via 
Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM
To:  <mailto:af@afmug.com> 
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

So it's Roy against the world of sync 

Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini

 

 


On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af  wrote:

Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see 
everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another reason I don’t 
worry about GPS.   My next article covers my main reason.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh 
Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com
        Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of 
Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
        Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until 
this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 
WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
            Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't 
deploy anything new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do 
anything given the amount of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have 
never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the 
cashflow to pay for those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people 
deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at 
least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at 
least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af 
wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt 
always 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Josh Reynolds via Af]

The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote:
Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, 
extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a 
nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting.

*From:* Paul McCall via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450.  NOT the 
initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital 
of the world.  Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and 
sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it.  On most 
towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each.  Some are only one 
frequency band, so then there are only 4.  Say those 4 APs are 
supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are 
a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 
x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue 
just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.)  We have had 
commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so 
that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business 
terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game.


And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs.  We 
have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on 
the APs.  Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low 
cost, so not nearly as big of an impact.


So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least 
cut my losses by 80%.  That’s a big deal !


Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands.

Paul

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Gino Villarini 
via Af

*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM
*To:* 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

So it's Roy against the world of sync 😀

Gino A. Villarini

@gvillarini


On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see
everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another
reason I don’t worry about GPS.   My next article covers my main
reason.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh
Reynolds via Af
*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike
Hammett via Af
*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this
point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets
with 12 WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



*From: *"Mark Radabaugh via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy
anything new.  I suppose the good part for you is nobody else
can do anything given the amount of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

You just hit the nail on the head why we have never
considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay
for those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people
deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6
shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't
think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the
site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out.

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Joe Falaschi via Af]

In parts of our suburban coverage NW of Chicago we cannot coordinate 
6GHz or 11GHz at some specific sites.  What does the picture look like 
in 10 years when we need to also feed hundreds and hundreds of 
micropops...  To some extent I'm not sure wireless will be a service for 
the masses.  How do you provide 50/10 service to all homes and 
businesses in a 3000 to 4000:1 population density area?  We are 100% 
wireless right now but it does seem like fiber is the way things are 
going.  Use the wireless to get a customer base to convert later and 
then keep wireless as a premium product where diversity is required.  
Until then we will continue to be a boutique player in these areas.  I 
am excited about the new tech coming out and I'm not trying to say we 
won't take any advance in technology.  It will help greatly in low 
density areas but will future wireless scale to a true high density area 
for someone who is going to take significant market share?


For example 14000 population in 4 miles, 50% take rate, 7000 customers.  
50Mbps service.  100:1 usage ratio.  Is that 3.5Gbps of usage using 
those assumptions?  Maybe, until you need to provide 100Mbps service 
much less 1Gbps.  I'd love for someone to make it possible without going 
down the fiber route but it doesn't seem obvious to me right now that 
100% wireless could take the place of Comcast's Internet product in 
urban and suburban areas.


Joe Falaschi
http://www.e-vergent.com


On 10/19/14, 11:09 PM, Tyler Treat via Af wrote:
What's your Backhaul strategy for having this many sites.  How many 
hops do you get from fiber?  With a ton of small sites, it seems like 
it would scale to an unmanageable level very quickly...?


___
Mangled by my iPhone.
___

Tyler Treat
Corn Belt Technologies, Inc.

tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com <mailto:tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com>
___


On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:52 PM, Rory Conaway via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:


+1. I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic little 
Rocket 5M’s and nothing special.  Imagine what happens when the 
Rocket AC or Mimosa come out with their products.


Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen numbers 
like 84% of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t.


Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds 
via Af

*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you 
have very good performance without the crappy latency hit.


Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote:

Then you miss out on the best performance.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



*From: *"Rory Conaway via Af"  <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Ahh, difference of philosophies.  I just don’t want my business
dependent on competitors or single suppliers.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Gino
Villarini via Af
*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM
    *To:*  <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

So it's Roy against the world of sync 

Gino A. Villarini

@gvillarini


On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:

Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see
everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another
reason I don’t worry about GPS.   My next article covers my
main reason.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh
Reynolds via Af
*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
    *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com <http://www.spitwspots.com>

On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of
*Mike Hammett via Af
*Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
    *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP tha

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Chuck McCown via Af]

Transitions are like $180 each and the waveguide is about $25/foot.  
In my experience, lightening gets to you via power conductors.  

From: Ken Hohhof via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:06 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend 
using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building 
or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting.

From: Paul McCall via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450.  NOT the initial 
cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world.  
Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct 
strike, we can’t repair any of it.  On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 
Ghz, so 8 APs each.  Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 
4.  Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. 
(most towers are a less than that and some are more).  So, if I lose $ 8K in 
APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue 
just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.)  We have had commercial, 
well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months 
(probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year.  That 
makes NO sense to play that game.  

 

And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs.  We have had 
4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs.  
Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly 
as big of an impact.  

 

So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my 
losses by 80%.  That’s a big deal !

 

Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands.

 

Paul

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

So it's Roy against the world of sync 😀

Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini

 

 


On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af  wrote:

  Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see everyone 
sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another reason I don’t worry about 
GPS.   My next article covers my main reason.

   

  Rory

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
  Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

   

  LOL :)

  Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
  SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

  On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used 
Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:

  You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 
450 (and similar) in the past:

  By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those 
sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) 
have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we 
don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a 
valuable repeater, then we don't go there.

  Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
  SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

  On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote:

I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni 
in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. 
The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients 
link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a 
two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more 
sectors than that per site right now...

Sent from my iPhone 

 

Kurt Fankhauser

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

http://www.fiercewireless.com/tech/story/startup-magnacom-hypes-spectrum-saving-alternative-qam/2013-12-17

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Rory Conaway via Af
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 6:58 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

I’m not sure of your 100:1 usage ratio but keep this in mind, to extend the 
life of DSL, CenturyLink is building Fiber to the Node to get closer which 
allows them to sell 40Mbps service.   Since you will be able to easily deliver 
500-1Gbps on a single AP (realistically, I’d be comfortable with the 500Mbps to 
start), instead of delivering FTTH, deliver Fiber to the Node (FTTN) and the 
use wireless for the last few hundred feet.  If it was a bad technical/business 
mode, Vivint wouldn’t be doing it.  However, I don’t even think FTTN is 
necessary in most areas based on what I know.  Keep in mind that 802.11ac CPE’s 
will be hitting 250Mbps or more.  

 

I don’t see 100mbps being needed for a few more years, as right now, 4K NetFlix 
is the only real high bandwidth app on the near Horizon.  Fiber is great if you 
can amortize it but next generation wireless will be more profitable in the 
short term.

 

BTW, I just read that someone has already successfully tested 4096 and the WAM 
guys are saying they are even better.  Wireless isn’t even close to hitting 
it’s limits.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Joe Falaschi via Af
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 6:19 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

In parts of our suburban coverage NW of Chicago we cannot coordinate 6GHz or 
11GHz at some specific sites.  What does the picture look like in 10 years when 
we need to also feed hundreds and hundreds of micropops...  To some extent I'm 
not sure wireless will be a service for the masses.  How do you provide 50/10 
service to all homes and businesses in a 3000 to 4000:1 population density 
area?  We are 100% wireless right now but it does seem like fiber is the way 
things are going.  Use the wireless to get a customer base to convert later and 
then keep wireless as a premium product where diversity is required.  Until 
then we will continue to be a boutique player in these areas.  I am excited 
about the new tech coming out and I'm not trying to say we won't take any 
advance in technology.  It will help greatly in low density areas but will 
future wireless scale to a true high density area for someone who is going to 
take significant market share?

For example 14000 population in 4 miles, 50% take rate, 7000 customers.  50Mbps 
service.  100:1 usage ratio.  Is that 3.5Gbps of usage using those assumptions? 
 Maybe, until you need to provide 100Mbps service much less 1Gbps.  I'd love 
for someone to make it possible without going down the fiber route but it 
doesn't seem obvious to me right now that 100% wireless could take the place of 
Comcast's Internet product in urban and suburban areas.

Joe Falaschi
http://www.e-vergent.com


On 10/19/14, 11:09 PM, Tyler Treat via Af wrote:

What's your Backhaul strategy for having this many sites.  How many 
hops do you get from fiber?  With a ton of small sites, it seems like it would 
scale to an unmanageable level very quickly...?

___

Mangled by my iPhone.

___

 

Tyler Treat

Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. 

 

tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com

___

 


On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:52 PM, Rory Conaway via Af  wrote:

+1.  I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic 
little Rocket 5M’s and nothing special.  Imagine what happens when the Rocket 
AC or Mimosa come out with their products.  

Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen 
numbers like 84% of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t.  

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh 
Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM
To: af@afmug.com
        Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix 
and you have very good performance without the crappy latency hit.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote:

Then you miss out on the best performance.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
  

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Rory Conaway via Af]

I’m not sure of your 100:1 usage ratio but keep this in mind, to extend the 
life of DSL, CenturyLink is building Fiber to the Node to get closer which 
allows them to sell 40Mbps service.   Since you will be able to easily deliver 
500-1Gbps on a single AP (realistically, I’d be comfortable with the 500Mbps to 
start), instead of delivering FTTH, deliver Fiber to the Node (FTTN) and the 
use wireless for the last few hundred feet.  If it was a bad technical/business 
mode, Vivint wouldn’t be doing it.  However, I don’t even think FTTN is 
necessary in most areas based on what I know.  Keep in mind that 802.11ac CPE’s 
will be hitting 250Mbps or more.  

 

I don’t see 100mbps being needed for a few more years, as right now, 4K NetFlix 
is the only real high bandwidth app on the near Horizon.  Fiber is great if you 
can amortize it but next generation wireless will be more profitable in the 
short term.

 

BTW, I just read that someone has already successfully tested 4096 and the WAM 
guys are saying they are even better.  Wireless isn’t even close to hitting 
it’s limits.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Joe Falaschi via Af
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 6:19 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

In parts of our suburban coverage NW of Chicago we cannot coordinate 6GHz or 
11GHz at some specific sites.  What does the picture look like in 10 years when 
we need to also feed hundreds and hundreds of micropops...  To some extent I'm 
not sure wireless will be a service for the masses.  How do you provide 50/10 
service to all homes and businesses in a 3000 to 4000:1 population density 
area?  We are 100% wireless right now but it does seem like fiber is the way 
things are going.  Use the wireless to get a customer base to convert later and 
then keep wireless as a premium product where diversity is required.  Until 
then we will continue to be a boutique player in these areas.  I am excited 
about the new tech coming out and I'm not trying to say we won't take any 
advance in technology.  It will help greatly in low density areas but will 
future wireless scale to a true high density area for someone who is going to 
take significant market share?

For example 14000 population in 4 miles, 50% take rate, 7000 customers.  50Mbps 
service.  100:1 usage ratio.  Is that 3.5Gbps of usage using those assumptions? 
 Maybe, until you need to provide 100Mbps service much less 1Gbps.  I'd love 
for someone to make it possible without going down the fiber route but it 
doesn't seem obvious to me right now that 100% wireless could take the place of 
Comcast's Internet product in urban and suburban areas.

Joe Falaschi
http://www.e-vergent.com


On 10/19/14, 11:09 PM, Tyler Treat via Af wrote:

What's your Backhaul strategy for having this many sites.  How many 
hops do you get from fiber?  With a ton of small sites, it seems like it would 
scale to an unmanageable level very quickly...?

___

Mangled by my iPhone.

___

 

Tyler Treat

Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. 

 

tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com

___

 


On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:52 PM, Rory Conaway via Af  wrote:

+1.  I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic 
little Rocket 5M’s and nothing special.  Imagine what happens when the Rocket 
AC or Mimosa come out with their products.  

Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen 
numbers like 84% of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t.  

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh 
Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM
To: af@afmug.com
        Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix 
and you have very good performance without the crappy latency hit.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote:

Then you miss out on the best performance.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

 





From: "Rory Conaway via Af"  
<mailto:af@afmug.com> 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM
         

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Ken Hohhof via Af]

Even for fiber projects like Google Fiber, I have to assume the big guys 
envision content moving toward the customer.  Like Netflix cache boxes in each 
town.  Forget the transport, what about routing?  It doesn’t seem to me that 
Ultra High Def video on demand to every pair of eyeballs scales if that data 
has to be routed across the country through routers at interchange points.  I 
suspect the big ISPs also think a lot of that content will be coming from their 
own servers not Netflix, although CBS and HBO seem to have a different view.  
But does that mean content providers will have to rent colo space from Comcast 
and Google Fiber to put CDN servers in every town?


From: Joe Falaschi via Af 
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:19 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

In parts of our suburban coverage NW of Chicago we cannot coordinate 6GHz or 
11GHz at some specific sites.  What does the picture look like in 10 years when 
we need to also feed hundreds and hundreds of micropops...  To some extent I'm 
not sure wireless will be a service for the masses.  How do you provide 50/10 
service to all homes and businesses in a 3000 to 4000:1 population density 
area?  We are 100% wireless right now but it does seem like fiber is the way 
things are going.  Use the wireless to get a customer base to convert later and 
then keep wireless as a premium product where diversity is required.  Until 
then we will continue to be a boutique player in these areas.  I am excited 
about the new tech coming out and I'm not trying to say we won't take any 
advance in technology.  It will help greatly in low density areas but will 
future wireless scale to a true high density area for someone who is going to 
take significant market share?

For example 14000 population in 4 miles, 50% take rate, 7000 customers.  50Mbps 
service.  100:1 usage ratio.  Is that 3.5Gbps of usage using those assumptions? 
 Maybe, until you need to provide 100Mbps service much less 1Gbps.  I'd love 
for someone to make it possible without going down the fiber route but it 
doesn't seem obvious to me right now that 100% wireless could take the place of 
Comcast's Internet product in urban and suburban areas.

Joe Falaschi
http://www.e-vergent.com


On 10/19/14, 11:09 PM, Tyler Treat via Af wrote:

  What's your Backhaul strategy for having this many sites.  How many hops do 
you get from fiber?  With a ton of small sites, it seems like it would scale to 
an unmanageable level very quickly...?


  ___
  Mangled by my iPhone.
  ___

  Tyler Treat
  Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. 

  tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com
  ___


  On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:52 PM, Rory Conaway via Af  wrote:


+1.  I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic little 
Rocket 5M’s and nothing special.  Imagine what happens when the Rocket AC or 
Mimosa come out with their products.  

Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen numbers like 
84% of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t.  

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

 

Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you have 
very good performance without the crappy latency hit.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote:

  Then you miss out on the best performance.



  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
  http://www.ics-il.com

   


--

  From: "Rory Conaway via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM
      Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

  Ahh, difference of philosophies.  I just don’t want my business dependent 
on competitors or single suppliers.

   

  Rory

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af
  Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM
  To: mailto:af@afmug.com
      Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

   

  So it's Roy against the world of sync 

  Gino A. Villarini 

  @gvillarini

   

   


  On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af  wrote:

Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see everyone 
sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another reason I don’t worry about 
GPS.   My next article covers my main reason.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Seth Mattinen via Af]

On 10/20/14, 6:59 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote:

Even for fiber projects like Google Fiber, I have to assume the big guys
envision content moving toward the customer.  Like Netflix cache boxes
in each town.  Forget the transport, what about routing?  It doesn’t
seem to me that Ultra High Def video on demand to every pair of eyeballs
scales if that data has to be routed across the country through routers
at interchange points.  I suspect the big ISPs also think a lot of that
content will be coming from their own servers not Netflix, although CBS
and HBO seem to have a different view.  But does that mean content
providers will have to rent colo space from Comcast and Google Fiber to
put CDN servers in every town?



Or nearest IX peering fabric.

~Seth

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Chuck McCown via Af]

Netflix gives you the box, you put it in and provide 
space/power/cooling/connection.


-Original Message- 
From: Seth Mattinen via Af

Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:01 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

On 10/20/14, 6:59 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote:

Even for fiber projects like Google Fiber, I have to assume the big guys
envision content moving toward the customer.  Like Netflix cache boxes
in each town.  Forget the transport, what about routing?  It doesn’t
seem to me that Ultra High Def video on demand to every pair of eyeballs
scales if that data has to be routed across the country through routers
at interchange points.  I suspect the big ISPs also think a lot of that
content will be coming from their own servers not Netflix, although CBS
and HBO seem to have a different view.  But does that mean content
providers will have to rent colo space from Comcast and Google Fiber to
put CDN servers in every town?



Or nearest IX peering fabric.

~Seth 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Ken Hohhof via Af]

I'm thinking much closer to the customer.  Same as Class 5 POTS switches, a 
town of 10,000 households gets a mini data center.  Actually, someone should 
look at repurposing those windowless brick buildings in the center of towns.


-Original Message- 
From: Seth Mattinen via Af

Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:01 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

On 10/20/14, 6:59 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote:

Even for fiber projects like Google Fiber, I have to assume the big guys
envision content moving toward the customer.  Like Netflix cache boxes
in each town.  Forget the transport, what about routing?  It doesn’t
seem to me that Ultra High Def video on demand to every pair of eyeballs
scales if that data has to be routed across the country through routers
at interchange points.  I suspect the big ISPs also think a lot of that
content will be coming from their own servers not Netflix, although CBS
and HBO seem to have a different view.  But does that mean content
providers will have to rent colo space from Comcast and Google Fiber to
put CDN servers in every town?



Or nearest IX peering fabric.

~Seth 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Ken Hohhof via Af]

Or like a Redbox kiosk, you charge them for the space/power/cooling, unless 
they want to give you a cut of the revenue.



-Original Message- 
From: Chuck McCown via Af

Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:02 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Netflix gives you the box, you put it in and provide
space/power/cooling/connection.

-Original Message- 
From: Seth Mattinen via Af

Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:01 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

On 10/20/14, 6:59 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote:

Even for fiber projects like Google Fiber, I have to assume the big guys
envision content moving toward the customer.  Like Netflix cache boxes
in each town.  Forget the transport, what about routing?  It doesn’t
seem to me that Ultra High Def video on demand to every pair of eyeballs
scales if that data has to be routed across the country through routers
at interchange points.  I suspect the big ISPs also think a lot of that
content will be coming from their own servers not Netflix, although CBS
and HBO seem to have a different view.  But does that mean content
providers will have to rent colo space from Comcast and Google Fiber to
put CDN servers in every town?



Or nearest IX peering fabric.

~Seth

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

I'm looking at something similar in some of my areas. We actually have trees 
here, so I'd be looking to locate feeds up to real towers or down to fiber, but 
have a couple hops between houses go under the trees. It's not going to cover 
the whole town, but if it does so reliably then it might be a way to go. 

Well, then in other areas it's new subdivisions without trees and I'm on the 
water tower serving them, so these horns look pretty good. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Tyler Treat via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:09:30 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


What's your Backhaul strategy for having this many sites. How many hops do you 
get from fiber? With a ton of small sites, it seems like it would scale to an 
unmanageable level very quickly...? 


___ 
Mangled by my iPhone. 
___ 


Tyler Treat 
Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. 


tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com 
___ 



On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:52 PM, Rory Conaway via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 






+1. I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic little Rocket 
5M’s and nothing special. Imagine what happens when the Rocket AC or Mimosa 
come out with their products. 
Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen numbers like 84% 
of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you have very 
good performance without the crappy latency hit. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: 



Then you miss out on the best performance. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -


From: "Rory Conaway via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 
Ahh, difference of philosophies. I just don’t want my business dependent on 
competitors or single suppliers. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM 
To:  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


So it's Roy against the world of sync  

Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini 









On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 



Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting 
around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My 
next article covers my main reason. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


LOL :) 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: 


I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: 



I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

I'm just glad to have fewer steps. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Josh Reynolds via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss . 



Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: 





Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend 
using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building 
or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. 




From: Paul McCall via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 



For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial 
cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. 
Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct 
strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, 
so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say 
those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most 
towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 
2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just 
to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, 
well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months 
(probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes 
NO sense to play that game. 

And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 
commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, 
the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an 
impact. 

So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my 
losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! 

Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands. 

Paul 




From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM 
To:  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


So it's Roy against the world of sync 😀 

Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini 









On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 



Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting 
around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My 
next article covers my main reason. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


LOL :) 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: 


I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past: 

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think 
we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, 
then we don't go there. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: 



I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to 
get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 
platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link 
right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two 
sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors 
than that per site right now... 

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Craig Schmaderer via Af]

Is the 450 still only 20mhz and under?   If they even can or do up it to like 
80mhz like mimosa is going to do, how close could the 450 get to 600meg cap 
with just firmware upgrades?  Any guesses?

Craig R. Schmaderer
CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc.
Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058
Direct: 402-372-1052

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:25 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

I'm just glad to have fewer steps.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Josh Reynolds via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>
On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote:
Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend 
using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building 
or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting.

From: Paul McCall via Af<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450.  NOT the initial 
cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world.  
Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct 
strike, we can’t repair any of it.  On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 
Ghz, so 8 APs each.  Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 
4.  Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. 
(most towers are a less than that and some are more).  So, if I lose $ 8K in 
APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue 
just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.)  We have had commercial, 
well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months 
(probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year.  That 
makes NO sense to play that game.

And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs.  We have had 
4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs.  
Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly 
as big of an impact.

So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my 
losses by 80%.  That’s a big deal !

Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands.

Paul


From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM
To: <mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

So it's Roy against the world of sync 😀

Gino A. Villarini
@gvillarini



On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af 
mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote:
Yea, I covered that in one of my articles.  I just didn’t see everyone sitting 
around the campfire singing Kumbya.  Another reason I don’t worry about GPS.   
My next article covers my main reason.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

LOL :)

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com<http://www.spitwspots.com>
On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:
I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other?

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new.  I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making.

Mark

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 
(and similar) in the past:

By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, 
"we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already 
thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at l

Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons

[Mike Hammett via Af]

Well the Mimosa will deliver 620 megabits or so to two clients at the same 
time, so 1,200+ total from one AP. 

How much room is there for growth in 450? *shrugs* How long has it been out and 
how much growth have you seen thus far? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



- Original Message -

From: "Craig Schmaderer via Af"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:10:16 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 



Is the 450 still only 20mhz and under? If they even can or do up it to like 
80mhz like mimosa is going to do, how close could the 450 get to 600meg cap 
with just firmware upgrades? Any guesses? 


Craig R. Schmaderer 
CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc. 
Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058 
Direct: 402-372-1052 



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:25 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


I'm just glad to have fewer steps. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -


From: "Josh Reynolds via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss. 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: 





Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend 
using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building 
or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. 






From: Paul McCall via Af 

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM 

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 



For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial 
cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. 
Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct 
strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, 
so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say 
those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most 
towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 
2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just 
to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, 
well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months 
(probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes 
NO sense to play that game. 

And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 
commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, 
the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an 
impact. 

So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my 
losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! 

Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands. 

Paul 




From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM 
To:  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


So it's Roy against the world of sync  

Gino A. Villarini 

@gvillarini 









On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af < af@afmug.com > wrote: 



Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting 
around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My 
next article covers my main reason. 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


LOL :) 

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer 
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com 
On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: 


I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? 

Rory 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 


Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik 
and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 




From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" < af@afmug.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons 

And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I 
suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount 
of noise your making. 

Mark 

On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: 



You just hit the na