Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Adam Moffett]

Can you *see* the butt splices?  Aren't they in enclosures?


On 1/1/2016 10:24 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
Regarding the power company ... I think our attitude toward 
infrastructure has changed over the past 25 years or so.  Things like 
wires and poles and roads and bridges used to be viewed as valuable 
assets and sources of revenue, so you took care of them, did 
preventative maintenance, etc. Now it seems they are just legacy money 
pits, you fix them only when they fall down, and then do the minimal 
repair possible.
In the case of POTS and DSL, it’s even worse, you don’t even fix them 
when the break.  Sorry, there’s water in the cables.  Sorry, you’re at 
the end of the line, and it’s not worth it to fix the cable cut.  
Sorry, we’re out of ports. Sorry, we’re not really out of ports, we 
just don’t want to sell it to you.
Maybe it’s partly due to the change from rate of return to price cap 
regulation of utilities.
During our recent widespread power outages, as I drove the country 
roads looking to see if there were crews working on repairs, some of 
the wires up on the poles had 20 to 50 of those butt splices per mile 
from previous breaks.  If anyone ever deploys fiber, I hope they don’t 
string it on the poles.  And if they bury it, don’t even think about 
pedestals on the side of the road.  Most of the phone company 
pedestals are all busted up or covered with trash bags.
Sometimes it seems we’re in one of those post-apocalyptic dystopian 
movies with broken down technology from a previous civilization.

Oh, and ... Happy New Year!
*From:* George Skorup <mailto:geo...@cbcast.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, December 29, 2015 11:15 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year, I 
don't remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of popped 
fuses and surge suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined the site 
months before and we didn't have any problems. We finally figured out 
that the grounding sorta got split. Everything was still 
interconnected, just not optimally. So we all made sure that 
everything was tied to a single point, aka R56. No more issues. We do 
still get some popped fuses once in a while, but that's mostly Chuck's 
surge suppressors clamping on nearby lightning strikes. I'd rather 
have that than dead or degraded ethernet ports.


It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've noticed 
this pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for a lot of the 
year, we lose more gear. Which brings up another point. Up to a couple 
years ago, we had a site where we'd lose everything 2-3 times per 
year. The power company came out and ran a load test at our 
transformer. 20A is all it would do. The ground rod at the 
pole/transformer was almost completely gone. I think they said there 
was maybe 2 feet left and they pulled it out by hand. Of course it was 
probably 40 years old.


On 12/29/2015 10:28 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:


When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We take 
great care to insure we follow sound methodology and take no short 
cuts.  I have shared many posts on how we do it... basically all of 
it hinges of Franklin method.  Those who know me, know I don't pull 
punches...if we were getting hit allot I would post it.  Yes we have 
had hits and lost equipment but it is extremely rare. Consider that 
one SCADA network alone has over 500 sites with elevated tanks, 
towers and masts all with yagis, sectored and omni antennas with 
heliax cabling.  Wisps around here get more hits.  I will share some 
links you might find useful.


On Dec 29, 2015 8:08 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz" <fai...@snappytelecom.net 
<mailto:fai...@snappytelecom.net>> wrote:


I thought about commenting, walked away,  but decided to comment
at the risk of offending someone, but it would be worth it if the
point being made and the information being shared was understood
properly..
So here goes... Joshaven took the time and provided a farily
accurate, detailed post on how to do grounding properly, and the
potential issues when it is not proper. There is a lot of good
information in there.
Glen I don't know if you realize what you did with your replies
 while sounding dismissive you actually have described the
exact thing that Joshaven was trying to point out, as to what
happens when grounding is not proper !
'Grounding' is not just running some copper wires to be visually
satisfying your statement about  'it is grounded pretty
well...'  followed by .. I have lost equipment there is an
Oxymoron
Grounding when done correctly will protect your equipment from
having the type of damage you are describing and yes there
are some ways to measure and determine if your grounding is proper !
BTW, Audio affects of a Lightning strike, shaking stuff etc et

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Ken Hohhof]

Regarding the power company ... I think our attitude toward infrastructure has 
changed over the past 25 years or so.  Things like wires and poles and roads 
and bridges used to be viewed as valuable assets and sources of revenue, so you 
took care of them, did preventative maintenance, etc.  Now it seems they are 
just legacy money pits, you fix them only when they fall down, and then do the 
minimal repair possible.

In the case of POTS and DSL, it’s even worse, you don’t even fix them when the 
break.  Sorry, there’s water in the cables.  Sorry, you’re at the end of the 
line, and it’s not worth it to fix the cable cut.  Sorry, we’re out of ports.  
Sorry, we’re not really out of ports, we just don’t want to sell it to you.

Maybe it’s partly due to the change from rate of return to price cap regulation 
of utilities.

During our recent widespread power outages, as I drove the country roads 
looking to see if there were crews working on repairs, some of the wires up on 
the poles had 20 to 50 of those butt splices per mile from previous breaks.  If 
anyone ever deploys fiber, I hope they don’t string it on the poles.  And if 
they bury it, don’t even think about pedestals on the side of the road.  Most 
of the phone company pedestals are all busted up or covered with trash bags.

Sometimes it seems we’re in one of those post-apocalyptic dystopian movies with 
broken down technology from a previous civilization.

Oh, and ... Happy New Year!


From: George Skorup 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 11:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year, I don't 
remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of popped fuses and surge 
suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined the site months before and we didn't 
have any problems. We finally figured out that the grounding sorta got split. 
Everything was still interconnected, just not optimally. So we all made sure 
that everything was tied to a single point, aka R56. No more issues. We do 
still get some popped fuses once in a while, but that's mostly Chuck's surge 
suppressors clamping on nearby lightning strikes. I'd rather have that than 
dead or degraded ethernet ports.

It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've noticed this 
pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for a lot of the year, we lose 
more gear. Which brings up another point. Up to a couple years ago, we had a 
site where we'd lose everything 2-3 times per year. The power company came out 
and ran a load test at our transformer. 20A is all it would do. The ground rod 
at the pole/transformer was almost completely gone. I think they said there was 
maybe 2 feet left and they pulled it out by hand. Of course it was probably 40 
years old.


On 12/29/2015 10:28 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:

  When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We take great care 
to insure we follow sound methodology and take no short cuts.  I have shared 
many posts on how we do it... basically all of it hinges of Franklin method.  
Those who know me, know I don't pull punches...if we were getting hit allot I 
would post it.  Yes we have had hits and lost equipment but it is extremely 
rare. Consider that one SCADA network alone  has over 500 sites with elevated 
tanks, towers and masts all with yagis, sectored and omni antennas with heliax 
cabling.  Wisps around here get more hits.  I will share some links you might 
find useful.  

  On Dec 29, 2015 8:08 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz" <fai...@snappytelecom.net> wrote:

I thought about commenting, walked away,  but decided to comment at the 
risk of offending someone, but it would be worth it if the point being made and 
the information being shared was understood properly..

So here goes... Joshaven took the time and provided a farily accurate, 
detailed post on how to do grounding properly, and the potential issues when it 
is not proper. There is a lot of good information in there.

Glen I don't know if you realize what you did with your replies  while 
sounding dismissive you actually have described the exact thing that Joshaven 
was trying to point out, as to what happens when grounding is not proper !

'Grounding' is not just running some copper wires to be visually 
satisfying your statement about  'it is grounded pretty well...'  followed 
by .. I have lost equipment there is an Oxymoron

Grounding when done correctly will protect your equipment from having the 
type of damage you are describing and yes there are some ways to measure 
and determine if your grounding is proper !


BTW, Audio affects of a Lightning strike,  shaking stuff etc etc is due to 
sound waves generated.. (sort of a mini explosion)... makes for great sound 
effect, but has nothing to do with electrical damage to equipment.

:)



Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Ken Hohhof]

Talking about power wires.  It’s some kind of inline splice a little fatter 
than the wire.  At some point I think there won’t be any wire left, just 
splices.

Something like these:
http://www.hubbellpowersystems.com/connectors/dist/overhead-splices/automatic-copper/


From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2016 9:44 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

Can you *see* the butt splices?  Aren't they in enclosures?



On 1/1/2016 10:24 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

  Regarding the power company ... I think our attitude toward infrastructure 
has changed over the past 25 years or so.  Things like wires and poles and 
roads and bridges used to be viewed as valuable assets and sources of revenue, 
so you took care of them, did preventative maintenance, etc.  Now it seems they 
are just legacy money pits, you fix them only when they fall down, and then do 
the minimal repair possible.

  In the case of POTS and DSL, it’s even worse, you don’t even fix them when 
the break.  Sorry, there’s water in the cables.  Sorry, you’re at the end of 
the line, and it’s not worth it to fix the cable cut.  Sorry, we’re out of 
ports.  Sorry, we’re not really out of ports, we just don’t want to sell it to 
you.

  Maybe it’s partly due to the change from rate of return to price cap 
regulation of utilities.

  During our recent widespread power outages, as I drove the country roads 
looking to see if there were crews working on repairs, some of the wires up on 
the poles had 20 to 50 of those butt splices per mile from previous breaks.  If 
anyone ever deploys fiber, I hope they don’t string it on the poles.  And if 
they bury it, don’t even think about pedestals on the side of the road.  Most 
of the phone company pedestals are all busted up or covered with trash bags.

  Sometimes it seems we’re in one of those post-apocalyptic dystopian movies 
with broken down technology from a previous civilization.

  Oh, and ... Happy New Year!


  From: George Skorup 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 11:15 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

  For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year, I don't 
remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of popped fuses and surge 
suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined the site months before and we didn't 
have any problems. We finally figured out that the grounding sorta got split. 
Everything was still interconnected, just not optimally. So we all made sure 
that everything was tied to a single point, aka R56. No more issues. We do 
still get some popped fuses once in a while, but that's mostly Chuck's surge 
suppressors clamping on nearby lightning strikes. I'd rather have that than 
dead or degraded ethernet ports.

  It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've noticed this 
pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for a lot of the year, we lose 
more gear. Which brings up another point. Up to a couple years ago, we had a 
site where we'd lose everything 2-3 times per year. The power company came out 
and ran a load test at our transformer. 20A is all it would do. The ground rod 
at the pole/transformer was almost completely gone. I think they said there was 
maybe 2 feet left and they pulled it out by hand. Of course it was probably 40 
years old.


  On 12/29/2015 10:28 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:

When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We take great 
care to insure we follow sound methodology and take no short cuts.  I have 
shared many posts on how we do it... basically all of it hinges of Franklin 
method.  Those who know me, know I don't pull punches...if we were getting hit 
allot I would post it.  Yes we have had hits and lost equipment but it is 
extremely rare. Consider that one SCADA network alone  has over 500 sites with 
elevated tanks, towers and masts all with yagis, sectored and omni antennas 
with heliax cabling.  Wisps around here get more hits.  I will share some links 
you might find useful.  

On Dec 29, 2015 8:08 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz" <fai...@snappytelecom.net> wrote:

  I thought about commenting, walked away,  but decided to comment at the 
risk of offending someone, but it would be worth it if the point being made and 
the information being shared was understood properly..

  So here goes... Joshaven took the time and provided a farily accurate, 
detailed post on how to do grounding properly, and the potential issues when it 
is not proper. There is a lot of good information in there.

  Glen I don't know if you realize what you did with your replies  
while sounding dismissive you actually have described the exact thing that 
Joshaven was trying to point out, as to what happens when grounding is not 
proper !

  'Grounding' is not just running some copper wires to be visually 
satisfying your statement about  'it is grounded pretty well...'  followed 
by .. I have lost equipment t

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Chuck McCown]

You have two or more grounding circuits that are not bonded together 
properly.
Say one circuit for the tower and radio gear that goes into some ground rods 
and then the power company with their neutral and ground circuit.  If those 
two are not tied together with a very low impedance heavy duty connection 
you will generate a large voltage difference during strikes.


I prefer the PANI grounding system that the telco world uses.
Combine that with a halo /franklin system and I really do not know how much 
better you can do it.
Perhaps put up some ground towers like NASA does surrounding the space craft 
on the launch pad.


-Original Message- 
From: Jay Weekley

Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 9:53 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

What is split grounding?

Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
one of the most classic examples of a 'split ground' situation is when you 
loose gear with rain during hot days (first rains after dry season). 
Because there is rain involved most folks chalk this off to 'Lightning' 
... in reality it is not, it is due to Tower Ground, Bldg Ground and Power 
Ground being at a different potential causing current to flow thru the 
ground wires etc.


:)

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net



*From: *"George Skorup" <geo...@cbcast.com>
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:15:33 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year,
I don't remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of
popped fuses and surge suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined
the site months before and we didn't have any problems. We finally
figured out that the grounding sorta got split. Everything was
still interconnected, just not optimally. So we all made sure that
everything was tied to a single point, aka R56. No more issues. We
do still get some popped fuses once in a while, but that's mostly
Chuck's surge suppressors clamping on nearby lightning strikes.
I'd rather have that than dead or degraded ethernet ports.

It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've
noticed this pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for
a lot of the year, we lose more gear. Which brings up another
point. Up to a couple years ago, we had a site where we'd lose
everything 2-3 times per year. The power company came out and ran
a load test at our transformer. 20A is all it would do. The ground
rod at the pole/transformer was almost completely gone. I think
they said there was maybe 2 feet left and they pulled it out by
hand. Of course it was probably 40 years old.

On 12/29/2015 10:28 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:

When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We
take great care to insure we follow sound methodology and take
no short cuts.  I have shared many posts on how we do it...
basically all of it hinges of Franklin method.  Those who know
me, know I don't pull punches...if we were getting hit allot I
would post it.  Yes we have had hits and lost equipment but it
is extremely rare. Consider that one SCADA network alone has
over 500 sites with elevated tanks, towers and masts all with
yagis, sectored and omni antennas with heliax cabling.  Wisps
around here get more hits.  I will share some links you might
find useful.

On Dec 29, 2015 8:08 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz"
<fai...@snappytelecom.net <mailto:fai...@snappytelecom.net>>
wrote:

I thought about commenting, walked away,  but decided to
comment at the risk of offending someone, but it would be
worth it if the point being made and the information being
shared was understood properly..

So here goes... Joshaven took the time and provided a
farily accurate, detailed post on how to do grounding
properly, and the potential issues when it is not proper.
There is a lot of good information in there.

Glen I don't know if you realize what you did with your
replies  while sounding dismissive you actually have
described the exact thing that Joshaven was trying to
point out, as to what happens when grounding is not proper !

'Grounding' is not just running some copper wires to be
visually satisfying your statement about  'it is
grounded pretty well...'  followed by .. I have lost
equipment there is an Oxymoron

Grounding when done correctly will protect your equipment
from

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[chuck]

There is a ground testing method called the “decline of potential” or “fall of 
potential”.  You can do it with three ground rods, 100’ of cat 5 and a car 
battery.  In any event, you measure the resistance of your grounding systems.  
If it is not low enough you keep adding ground rods until it is.

I have had to do this test for mining operations to make MSHA happy.  

Fluke makes a nice special meter for this but you really don’t need it if you 
can measure volts, amps and have a car battery somewhere nearby.

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/inen/solutions/earthground/fall-of-potential

From: Joshaven Mailing Lists 
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 10:28 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

This is good stuff.   When replying I was worried that I was gonna get smeared 
for being that little voice in the background that keeps bringing up the 
grounding discussion.  It seems to always be the story that operators already 
have things grounded “properly” yet keep getting destroyed by surges.  I would 
say that almost every tower I have visited has been poorly grounded.  A friend 
of mine who travels the country fixing issues for AM, FM & TV stations says the 
number one issue is grounding.  (I’ve picked his brain quite a lot to validate 
my opinions on this issue and owe much of my understanding to him.)  
Interestingly he also says that in some cases he has had to drive a well into 
the water table to get an adequate ground to fix sensitive locations.  So if 
your gauge of proper grounding stops at a 10’ rod next to the tower and you are 
still having problems then don’t dismiss the grounding question too easily.  
10’ into a layer of dry sand won’t fix your issue especially if you have split 
grounds like discussed below. 

Sincerely,
Joshaven Potter
Google Hangouts: j...@g2wireless.co
Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370
supp...@joshaven.com




  On Dec 30, 2015, at 12:06 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  You have two or more grounding circuits that are not bonded together properly.
  Say one circuit for the tower and radio gear that goes into some ground rods 
and then the power company with their neutral and ground circuit.  If those two 
are not tied together with a very low impedance heavy duty connection you will 
generate a large voltage difference during strikes.

  I prefer the PANI grounding system that the telco world uses.
  Combine that with a halo /franklin system and I really do not know how much 
better you can do it.
  Perhaps put up some ground towers like NASA does surrounding the space craft 
on the launch pad.

  -Original Message- From: Jay Weekley
  Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 9:53 AM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

  What is split grounding?

  Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

one of the most classic examples of a 'split ground' situation is when you 
loose gear with rain during hot days (first rains after dry season). Because 
there is rain involved most folks chalk this off to 'Lightning' ... in reality 
it is not, it is due to Tower Ground, Bldg Ground and Power Ground being at a 
different potential causing current to flow thru the ground wires etc.

:)

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net



   *From: *"George Skorup" <geo...@cbcast.com>
   *To: *af@afmug.com
   *Sent: *Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:15:33 AM
   *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

   For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year,
   I don't remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of
   popped fuses and surge suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined
   the site months before and we didn't have any problems. We finally
   figured out that the grounding sorta got split. Everything was
   still interconnected, just not optimally. So we all made sure that
   everything was tied to a single point, aka R56. No more issues. We
   do still get some popped fuses once in a while, but that's mostly
   Chuck's surge suppressors clamping on nearby lightning strikes.
   I'd rather have that than dead or degraded ethernet ports.

   It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've
   noticed this pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for
   a lot of the year, we lose more gear. Which brings up another
   point. Up to a couple years ago, we had a site where we'd lose
   everything 2-3 times per year. The power company came out and ran
   a load test at our transformer. 20A is all it would do. The ground
   rod at the pole/transformer was almost completely gone. I think
   they said there was maybe 2 feet left and they pulled it out by
   hand. O

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Bill Prince]

Our primary tower site has a 25x25 grid with rather large copper bars 
spaced on 5' centers, arranged in a waffle pattern. All welded at the 
crossing points with big 12' ground rods at each crossing point (also 
welded to the waffle pattern). There are numerous ground wires; not sure 
the gauge, but they are pretty large. The site has been very good WRT 
lightning, and we've never had an issue, in spite of this being the 
tallest point around for several miles.


bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>

On 12/30/2015 9:03 AM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

When you have multiple grounding rods at a site (e.g. for a tower ground, there 
should be a ring around the tower base, with multiple ground rods, they should 
all be connected together, i.e ring, and different tower legs should be 
connected to the different ground rods (don't forget the guy wires too...)

Split grounding is when the different grounding rods are not connected to each 
other...
Most common issue is that there is an Electrical ground (ground rod) which is 
not connected using a heavy gauge copper wire to the other (tower or shelter) 
grounding rods.

In a split ground situation, if you were to connect an ohm meter to these two 
different ground(s) you will see high resistance...and in many cases if you 
were to connect a volt meter, you can actually get a reading of a few volts 
flowing thru the two different grounds.  In Hot Weather, when one side of the 
split ground gets wet, the voltage increases, and goes thru the electronic 
equipment (flowing in the wrong direction) causing Ethernet port damage at the 
very least and blowing equipment totally at the most.

Regards.

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net

- Original Message -

From: "CBB - Jay Fuller" <par...@cyberbroadband.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 11:53:07 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
What is split grounding?

Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

one of the most classic examples of a 'split ground' situation is when
you loose gear with rain during hot days (first rains after dry
season). Because there is rain involved most folks chalk this off to
'Lightning' ... in reality it is not, it is due to Tower Ground, Bldg
Ground and Power Ground being at a different potential causing current
to flow thru the ground wires etc.

:)

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net



 *From: *"George Skorup" <geo...@cbcast.com>
 *To: *af@afmug.com
 *Sent: *Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:15:33 AM
 *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

 For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year,
 I don't remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of
 popped fuses and surge suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined
 the site months before and we didn't have any problems. We finally
 figured out that the grounding sorta got split. Everything was
 still interconnected, just not optimally. So we all made sure that
 everything was tied to a single point, aka R56. No more issues. We
 do still get some popped fuses once in a while, but that's mostly
 Chuck's surge suppressors clamping on nearby lightning strikes.
 I'd rather have that than dead or degraded ethernet ports.

 It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've
 noticed this pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for
 a lot of the year, we lose more gear. Which brings up another
 point. Up to a couple years ago, we had a site where we'd lose
 everything 2-3 times per year. The power company came out and ran
 a load test at our transformer. 20A is all it would do. The ground
 rod at the pole/transformer was almost completely gone. I think
 they said there was maybe 2 feet left and they pulled it out by
 hand. Of course it was probably 40 years old.

 On 12/29/2015 10:28 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:

 When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We
 take great care to insure we follow sound methodology and take
 no short cuts.  I have shared many posts on how we do it...
 basically all of it hinges of Franklin method.  Those who know
 me, know I don't pull punches...if we were getting hit allot I
 would post it.  Yes we have had hits and lost equipment but it
 is extremely rare. Consider that one SCADA network alone has
 over 500 sites with elevated tanks, towers and masts all with
 yagis, sectored and omni antennas with heliax cabling.  Wisps
 around here get more hits.  I will share some links you might
 find useful.

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Jay Weekley]

I knew that it was better for all the ground rods to be connected in a 
ring but assumed that if they were all connected to a central point 
differences in potential wouldn't be a problem.


Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

When you have multiple grounding rods at a site (e.g. for a tower ground, there 
should be a ring around the tower base, with multiple ground rods, they should 
all be connected together, i.e ring, and different tower legs should be 
connected to the different ground rods (don't forget the guy wires too...)

Split grounding is when the different grounding rods are not connected to each 
other...
Most common issue is that there is an Electrical ground (ground rod) which is 
not connected using a heavy gauge copper wire to the other (tower or shelter) 
grounding rods.

In a split ground situation, if you were to connect an ohm meter to these two 
different ground(s) you will see high resistance...and in many cases if you 
were to connect a volt meter, you can actually get a reading of a few volts 
flowing thru the two different grounds.  In Hot Weather, when one side of the 
split ground gets wet, the voltage increases, and goes thru the electronic 
equipment (flowing in the wrong direction) causing Ethernet port damage at the 
very least and blowing equipment totally at the most.

Regards.

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net

- Original Message -

From: "CBB - Jay Fuller" <par...@cyberbroadband.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 11:53:07 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
What is split grounding?

Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

one of the most classic examples of a 'split ground' situation is when
you loose gear with rain during hot days (first rains after dry
season). Because there is rain involved most folks chalk this off to
'Lightning' ... in reality it is not, it is due to Tower Ground, Bldg
Ground and Power Ground being at a different potential causing current
to flow thru the ground wires etc.

:)

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net



 *From: *"George Skorup" <geo...@cbcast.com>
 *To: *af@afmug.com
 *Sent: *Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:15:33 AM
     *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

 For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year,
 I don't remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of
 popped fuses and surge suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined
 the site months before and we didn't have any problems. We finally
 figured out that the grounding sorta got split. Everything was
 still interconnected, just not optimally. So we all made sure that
 everything was tied to a single point, aka R56. No more issues. We
 do still get some popped fuses once in a while, but that's mostly
 Chuck's surge suppressors clamping on nearby lightning strikes.
 I'd rather have that than dead or degraded ethernet ports.

 It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've
 noticed this pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for
 a lot of the year, we lose more gear. Which brings up another
 point. Up to a couple years ago, we had a site where we'd lose
 everything 2-3 times per year. The power company came out and ran
 a load test at our transformer. 20A is all it would do. The ground
 rod at the pole/transformer was almost completely gone. I think
 they said there was maybe 2 feet left and they pulled it out by
 hand. Of course it was probably 40 years old.

 On 12/29/2015 10:28 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:

 When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We
 take great care to insure we follow sound methodology and take
 no short cuts.  I have shared many posts on how we do it...
 basically all of it hinges of Franklin method.  Those who know
 me, know I don't pull punches...if we were getting hit allot I
 would post it.  Yes we have had hits and lost equipment but it
 is extremely rare. Consider that one SCADA network alone has
 over 500 sites with elevated tanks, towers and masts all with
 yagis, sectored and omni antennas with heliax cabling.  Wisps
 around here get more hits.  I will share some links you might
 find useful.

 On Dec 29, 2015 8:08 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz"
 <fai...@snappytelecom.net <mailto:fai...@snappytelecom.net>>
 wrote:

 I thought about commenting, walked away,  but decided to
 comment at the risk of offending someone, but it would be
 worth it if t

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Jay Weekley]

I'm a lot more familiar with that scenario.

Chuck McCown wrote:
You have two or more grounding circuits that are not bonded together 
properly.
Say one circuit for the tower and radio gear that goes into some 
ground rods and then the power company with their neutral and ground 
circuit.  If those two are not tied together with a very low impedance 
heavy duty connection you will generate a large voltage difference 
during strikes.


I prefer the PANI grounding system that the telco world uses.
Combine that with a halo /franklin system and I really do not know how 
much better you can do it.
Perhaps put up some ground towers like NASA does surrounding the space 
craft on the launch pad.


-Original Message- From: Jay Weekley
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 9:53 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

What is split grounding?

Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
one of the most classic examples of a 'split ground' situation is 
when you loose gear with rain during hot days (first rains after dry 
season). Because there is rain involved most folks chalk this off to 
'Lightning' ... in reality it is not, it is due to Tower Ground, Bldg 
Ground and Power Ground being at a different potential causing 
current to flow thru the ground wires etc.


:)

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net



*From: *"George Skorup" <geo...@cbcast.com>
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:15:33 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year,
I don't remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of
popped fuses and surge suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined
the site months before and we didn't have any problems. We finally
figured out that the grounding sorta got split. Everything was
still interconnected, just not optimally. So we all made sure that
everything was tied to a single point, aka R56. No more issues. We
do still get some popped fuses once in a while, but that's mostly
Chuck's surge suppressors clamping on nearby lightning strikes.
I'd rather have that than dead or degraded ethernet ports.

It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've
noticed this pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for
a lot of the year, we lose more gear. Which brings up another
point. Up to a couple years ago, we had a site where we'd lose
everything 2-3 times per year. The power company came out and ran
a load test at our transformer. 20A is all it would do. The ground
rod at the pole/transformer was almost completely gone. I think
they said there was maybe 2 feet left and they pulled it out by
hand. Of course it was probably 40 years old.

On 12/29/2015 10:28 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:

When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We
take great care to insure we follow sound methodology and take
no short cuts.  I have shared many posts on how we do it...
basically all of it hinges of Franklin method.  Those who know
me, know I don't pull punches...if we were getting hit allot I
would post it.  Yes we have had hits and lost equipment but it
is extremely rare. Consider that one SCADA network alone has
over 500 sites with elevated tanks, towers and masts all with
yagis, sectored and omni antennas with heliax cabling. Wisps
around here get more hits.  I will share some links you might
find useful.

On Dec 29, 2015 8:08 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz"
<fai...@snappytelecom.net <mailto:fai...@snappytelecom.net>>
wrote:

I thought about commenting, walked away,  but decided to
comment at the risk of offending someone, but it would be
worth it if the point being made and the information being
shared was understood properly..

So here goes... Joshaven took the time and provided a
farily accurate, detailed post on how to do grounding
properly, and the potential issues when it is not proper.
There is a lot of good information in there.

Glen I don't know if you realize what you did with your
replies  while sounding dismissive you actually have
described the exact thing that Joshaven was trying to
point out, as to what happens when grounding is not proper !

'Grounding' is not just running some copper wires to be
visually satisfying your statement about  'it is
grounded pretty well...'  followed by .. I have lost
equipment there is an Oxymoron

Grounding wh

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Jay Weekley]

What is split grounding?

Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
one of the most classic examples of a 'split ground' situation is when 
you loose gear with rain during hot days (first rains after dry 
season). Because there is rain involved most folks chalk this off to 
'Lightning' ... in reality it is not, it is due to Tower Ground, Bldg 
Ground and Power Ground being at a different potential causing current 
to flow thru the ground wires etc.


:)

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net



*From: *"George Skorup" <geo...@cbcast.com>
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:15:33 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year,
I don't remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of
popped fuses and surge suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined
the site months before and we didn't have any problems. We finally
figured out that the grounding sorta got split. Everything was
still interconnected, just not optimally. So we all made sure that
everything was tied to a single point, aka R56. No more issues. We
do still get some popped fuses once in a while, but that's mostly
Chuck's surge suppressors clamping on nearby lightning strikes.
I'd rather have that than dead or degraded ethernet ports.

It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've
noticed this pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for
a lot of the year, we lose more gear. Which brings up another
point. Up to a couple years ago, we had a site where we'd lose
everything 2-3 times per year. The power company came out and ran
a load test at our transformer. 20A is all it would do. The ground
rod at the pole/transformer was almost completely gone. I think
they said there was maybe 2 feet left and they pulled it out by
hand. Of course it was probably 40 years old.

On 12/29/2015 10:28 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:

When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We
take great care to insure we follow sound methodology and take
no short cuts.  I have shared many posts on how we do it...
basically all of it hinges of Franklin method.  Those who know
me, know I don't pull punches...if we were getting hit allot I
would post it.  Yes we have had hits and lost equipment but it
is extremely rare. Consider that one SCADA network alone has
over 500 sites with elevated tanks, towers and masts all with
yagis, sectored and omni antennas with heliax cabling.  Wisps
around here get more hits.  I will share some links you might
find useful.

On Dec 29, 2015 8:08 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz"
<fai...@snappytelecom.net <mailto:fai...@snappytelecom.net>>
wrote:

I thought about commenting, walked away,  but decided to
comment at the risk of offending someone, but it would be
worth it if the point being made and the information being
shared was understood properly..

So here goes... Joshaven took the time and provided a
farily accurate, detailed post on how to do grounding
properly, and the potential issues when it is not proper.
There is a lot of good information in there.

Glen I don't know if you realize what you did with your
replies  while sounding dismissive you actually have
described the exact thing that Joshaven was trying to
point out, as to what happens when grounding is not proper !

'Grounding' is not just running some copper wires to be
visually satisfying your statement about  'it is
grounded pretty well...'  followed by .. I have lost
equipment there is an Oxymoron

Grounding when done correctly will protect your equipment
from having the type of damage you are describing and
yes there are some ways to measure and determine if your
grounding is proper !


BTW, Audio affects of a Lightning strike,  shaking stuff
etc etc is due to sound waves generated.. (sort of a mini
explosion)... makes for great sound effect, but has
nothing to do with electrical damage to equipment.

:)


Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 <tel:305%20663%205518%20x%20232>

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <tel:%28305%29663-5518

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Chuck McCown]

And in the world of grounding, 1 ohm is high resistance.

-Original Message- 
From: Faisal Imtiaz

Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 10:03 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

When you have multiple grounding rods at a site (e.g. for a tower ground, 
there should be a ring around the tower base, with multiple ground rods, 
they should all be connected together, i.e ring, and different tower legs 
should be connected to the different ground rods (don't forget the guy 
wires too...)


Split grounding is when the different grounding rods are not connected to 
each other...
Most common issue is that there is an Electrical ground (ground rod) which 
is not connected using a heavy gauge copper wire to the other (tower or 
shelter) grounding rods.


In a split ground situation, if you were to connect an ohm meter to these 
two different ground(s) you will see high resistance...and in many cases if 
you were to connect a volt meter, you can actually get a reading of a few 
volts flowing thru the two different grounds.  In Hot Weather, when one side 
of the split ground gets wet, the voltage increases, and goes thru the 
electronic equipment (flowing in the wrong direction) causing Ethernet port 
damage at the very least and blowing equipment totally at the most.


Regards.

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net

- Original Message -

From: "CBB - Jay Fuller" <par...@cyberbroadband.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 11:53:07 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance



What is split grounding?

Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

one of the most classic examples of a 'split ground' situation is when
you loose gear with rain during hot days (first rains after dry
season). Because there is rain involved most folks chalk this off to
'Lightning' ... in reality it is not, it is due to Tower Ground, Bldg
Ground and Power Ground being at a different potential causing current
to flow thru the ground wires etc.

:)

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net



*From: *"George Skorup" <geo...@cbcast.com>
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:15:33 AM
    *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year,
I don't remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of
popped fuses and surge suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined
the site months before and we didn't have any problems. We finally
figured out that the grounding sorta got split. Everything was
still interconnected, just not optimally. So we all made sure that
everything was tied to a single point, aka R56. No more issues. We
do still get some popped fuses once in a while, but that's mostly
Chuck's surge suppressors clamping on nearby lightning strikes.
I'd rather have that than dead or degraded ethernet ports.

It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've
noticed this pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for
a lot of the year, we lose more gear. Which brings up another
point. Up to a couple years ago, we had a site where we'd lose
everything 2-3 times per year. The power company came out and ran
a load test at our transformer. 20A is all it would do. The ground
rod at the pole/transformer was almost completely gone. I think
they said there was maybe 2 feet left and they pulled it out by
hand. Of course it was probably 40 years old.

On 12/29/2015 10:28 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:

When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We
take great care to insure we follow sound methodology and take
no short cuts.  I have shared many posts on how we do it...
basically all of it hinges of Franklin method.  Those who know
me, know I don't pull punches...if we were getting hit allot I
would post it.  Yes we have had hits and lost equipment but it
is extremely rare. Consider that one SCADA network alone has
over 500 sites with elevated tanks, towers and masts all with
yagis, sectored and omni antennas with heliax cabling.  Wisps
around here get more hits.  I will share some links you might
find useful.

On Dec 29, 2015 8:08 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz"
<fai...@snappytelecom.net <mailto:fai...@snappytelecom.net>>
wrote:

I thought about commenting, walked away,  but decided to
comment at the risk of offending someone, but it would be
worth it if the point being made and the information being
 

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Chuck McCown]

I have always believed most surges come in on the power, not via the tower.  
But the tower and building grounding are where they are looking to go and once 
they get into a weak grounding circuit they hit everything.

From: Faisal Imtiaz 
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 8:25 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

one of the most classic examples of a 'split ground' situation is when you 
loose gear with rain during hot days (first rains after dry season). Because 
there is rain involved most folks chalk this off to 'Lightning' ... in reality 
it is not, it is due to Tower Ground, Bldg Ground and Power Ground being at a 
different potential causing current to flow thru the ground wires etc.

:)

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net




  From: "George Skorup" <geo...@cbcast.com>
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:15:33 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

  For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year, I don't 
remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of popped fuses and surge 
suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined the site months before and we didn't 
have any problems. We finally figured out that the grounding sorta got split. 
Everything was still interconnected, just not optimally. So we all made sure 
that everything was tied to a single point, aka R56. No more issues. We do 
still get some popped fuses once in a while, but that's mostly Chuck's surge 
suppressors clamping on nearby lightning strikes. I'd rather have that than 
dead or degraded ethernet ports.

  It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've noticed this 
pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for a lot of the year, we lose 
more gear. Which brings up another point. Up to a couple years ago, we had a 
site where we'd lose everything 2-3 times per year. The power company came out 
and ran a load test at our transformer. 20A is all it would do. The ground rod 
at the pole/transformer was almost completely gone. I think they said there was 
maybe 2 feet left and they pulled it out by hand. Of course it was probably 40 
years old.


  On 12/29/2015 10:28 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:

When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We take great 
care to insure we follow sound methodology and take no short cuts.  I have 
shared many posts on how we do it... basically all of it hinges of Franklin 
method.  Those who know me, know I don't pull punches...if we were getting hit 
allot I would post it.  Yes we have had hits and lost equipment but it is 
extremely rare. Consider that one SCADA network alone  has over 500 sites with 
elevated tanks, towers and masts all with yagis, sectored and omni antennas 
with heliax cabling.  Wisps around here get more hits.  I will share some links 
you might find useful. 

On Dec 29, 2015 8:08 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz" <fai...@snappytelecom.net> wrote:

  I thought about commenting, walked away,  but decided to comment at the 
risk of offending someone, but it would be worth it if the point being made and 
the information being shared was understood properly..

  So here goes... Joshaven took the time and provided a farily accurate, 
detailed post on how to do grounding properly, and the potential issues when it 
is not proper. There is a lot of good information in there.

  Glen I don't know if you realize what you did with your replies  
while sounding dismissive you actually have described the exact thing that 
Joshaven was trying to point out, as to what happens when grounding is not 
proper !

  'Grounding' is not just running some copper wires to be visually 
satisfying your statement about  'it is grounded pretty well...'  followed 
by .. I have lost equipment there is an Oxymoron

  Grounding when done correctly will protect your equipment from having the 
type of damage you are describing and yes there are some ways to measure 
and determine if your grounding is proper !


  BTW, Audio affects of a Lightning strike,  shaking stuff etc etc is due 
to sound waves generated.. (sort of a mini explosion)... makes for great sound 
effect, but has nothing to do with electrical damage to equipment.

  :)



  Faisal Imtiaz
  Snappy Internet & Telecom
  7266 SW 48 Street
  Miami, FL 33155
  Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

  Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net


--

From: "Glen Waldrop" <gwl...@cngwireless.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 6:02:24 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insuran

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Faisal Imtiaz]

When you have multiple grounding rods at a site (e.g. for a tower ground, there 
should be a ring around the tower base, with multiple ground rods, they should 
all be connected together, i.e ring, and different tower legs should be 
connected to the different ground rods (don't forget the guy wires too...)

Split grounding is when the different grounding rods are not connected to each 
other... 
Most common issue is that there is an Electrical ground (ground rod) which is 
not connected using a heavy gauge copper wire to the other (tower or shelter) 
grounding rods.

In a split ground situation, if you were to connect an ohm meter to these two 
different ground(s) you will see high resistance...and in many cases if you 
were to connect a volt meter, you can actually get a reading of a few volts 
flowing thru the two different grounds.  In Hot Weather, when one side of the 
split ground gets wet, the voltage increases, and goes thru the electronic 
equipment (flowing in the wrong direction) causing Ethernet port damage at the 
very least and blowing equipment totally at the most.

Regards.

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net

- Original Message -
> From: "CBB - Jay Fuller" <par...@cyberbroadband.net>
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 11:53:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

> What is split grounding?
> 
> Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
>> one of the most classic examples of a 'split ground' situation is when
>> you loose gear with rain during hot days (first rains after dry
>> season). Because there is rain involved most folks chalk this off to
>> 'Lightning' ... in reality it is not, it is due to Tower Ground, Bldg
>> Ground and Power Ground being at a different potential causing current
>> to flow thru the ground wires etc.
>>
>> :)
>>
>> Faisal Imtiaz
>> Snappy Internet & Telecom
>> 7266 SW 48 Street
>> Miami, FL 33155
>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
>>
>> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net
>>
>> 
>>
>> *From: *"George Skorup" <geo...@cbcast.com>
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:15:33 AM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
>>
>> For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year,
>> I don't remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of
>> popped fuses and surge suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined
>> the site months before and we didn't have any problems. We finally
>> figured out that the grounding sorta got split. Everything was
>> still interconnected, just not optimally. So we all made sure that
>> everything was tied to a single point, aka R56. No more issues. We
>> do still get some popped fuses once in a while, but that's mostly
>> Chuck's surge suppressors clamping on nearby lightning strikes.
>> I'd rather have that than dead or degraded ethernet ports.
>>
>> It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've
>> noticed this pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for
>> a lot of the year, we lose more gear. Which brings up another
>> point. Up to a couple years ago, we had a site where we'd lose
>> everything 2-3 times per year. The power company came out and ran
>> a load test at our transformer. 20A is all it would do. The ground
>> rod at the pole/transformer was almost completely gone. I think
>> they said there was maybe 2 feet left and they pulled it out by
>> hand. Of course it was probably 40 years old.
>>
>> On 12/29/2015 10:28 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
>>
>> When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We
>> take great care to insure we follow sound methodology and take
>> no short cuts.  I have shared many posts on how we do it...
>> basically all of it hinges of Franklin method.  Those who know
>> me, know I don't pull punches...if we were getting hit allot I
>> would post it.  Yes we have had hits and lost equipment but it
>> is extremely rare. Consider that one SCADA network alone has
>> over 500 sites with elevated tanks, towers and masts all with
>> yagis, sectored and omni antennas with heliax cabling.  Wisps
>> around here get more hits.  I will share some links you might
>> find useful.
>>
>> On Dec 

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Joshaven Mailing Lists]

Chuck, what is your reaction to this device:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00390G3YA?psc=1=true_=ox_sc_sfl_title_3=ATVPDKIKX0DER
 
<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00390G3YA?psc=1=true_=ox_sc_sfl_title_3=ATVPDKIKX0DER>

I’ve been thinking about purchasing it hoping that it will be a nice 
inexpensive miens of measuring the fall off potential… It’s been setting in my 
cart for a while cause I’ve been getting by with what I already have which 
doesn’t include a proper fall off tester.

Sincerely,
Joshaven Potter
Google Hangouts: j...@g2wireless.co
Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370
supp...@joshaven.com



> On Dec 30, 2015, at 1:01 PM, <ch...@wbmfg.com> <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
> 
> There is a ground testing method called the “decline of potential” or “fall 
> of potential”.  You can do it with three ground rods, 100’ of cat 5 and a car 
> battery.  In any event, you measure the resistance of your grounding systems. 
>  If it is not low enough you keep adding ground rods until it is.
>  
> I have had to do this test for mining operations to make MSHA happy. 
>  
> Fluke makes a nice special meter for this but you really don’t need it if you 
> can measure volts, amps and have a car battery somewhere nearby.
>  
> http://www.fluke.com/fluke/inen/solutions/earthground/fall-of-potential 
> <http://www.fluke.com/fluke/inen/solutions/earthground/fall-of-potential>
>  
> From: Joshaven Mailing Lists <mailto:lis...@joshaven.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 10:28 AM
> To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
>  
> This is good stuff.   When replying I was worried that I was gonna get 
> smeared for being that little voice in the background that keeps bringing up 
> the grounding discussion.  It seems to always be the story that operators 
> already have things grounded “properly” yet keep getting destroyed by surges. 
>  I would say that almost every tower I have visited has been poorly grounded. 
>  A friend of mine who travels the country fixing issues for AM, FM & TV 
> stations says the number one issue is grounding.  (I’ve picked his brain 
> quite a lot to validate my opinions on this issue and owe much of my 
> understanding to him.)  Interestingly he also says that in some cases he has 
> had to drive a well into the water table to get an adequate ground to fix 
> sensitive locations.  So if your gauge of proper grounding stops at a 10’ rod 
> next to the tower and you are still having problems then don’t dismiss the 
> grounding question too easily.  10’ into a layer of dry sand won’t fix your 
> issue especially if you have split grounds like discussed below.
>  
> Sincerely,
> Joshaven Potter
> Google Hangouts: j...@g2wireless.co <mailto:j...@g2wireless.co>
> Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370
> supp...@joshaven.com <mailto:supp...@joshaven.com>
> 
>  
>> On Dec 30, 2015, at 12:06 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com 
>> <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
>>  
>> You have two or more grounding circuits that are not bonded together 
>> properly.
>> Say one circuit for the tower and radio gear that goes into some ground rods 
>> and then the power company with their neutral and ground circuit.  If those 
>> two are not tied together with a very low impedance heavy duty connection 
>> you will generate a large voltage difference during strikes.
>> 
>> I prefer the PANI grounding system that the telco world uses.
>> Combine that with a halo /franklin system and I really do not know how much 
>> better you can do it.
>> Perhaps put up some ground towers like NASA does surrounding the space craft 
>> on the launch pad.
>> 
>> -Original Message- From: Jay Weekley
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 9:53 AM
>> To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
>> 
>> What is split grounding?
>> 
>> Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
>>> one of the most classic examples of a 'split ground' situation is when you 
>>> loose gear with rain during hot days (first rains after dry season). 
>>> Because there is rain involved most folks chalk this off to 'Lightning' ... 
>>> in reality it is not, it is due to Tower Ground, Bldg Ground and Power 
>>> Ground being at a different potential causing current to flow thru the 
>>> ground wires etc.
>>> 
>>> :)
>>> 
>>> Faisal Imtiaz
>>> Snappy Internet & Telecom
>>> 7266 SW 48 Street
>>> Miami, FL 33155
>>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
>>> 
>>> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 
>>> <mailto:

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[chuck]

That will do just fine for the three rod decline of potential method.  

But I am too cheap.  I just use my trusty old fluke 87, car battery and my hp 
48G calculator.

From: Joshaven Mailing Lists 
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 11:59 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

Chuck, what is your reaction to this device: 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00390G3YA?psc=1=true_=ox_sc_sfl_title_3=ATVPDKIKX0DER


I’ve been thinking about purchasing it hoping that it will be a nice 
inexpensive miens of measuring the fall off potential… It’s been setting in my 
cart for a while cause I’ve been getting by with what I already have which 
doesn’t include a proper fall off tester.

Sincerely,
Joshaven Potter
Google Hangouts: j...@g2wireless.co
Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370
supp...@joshaven.com




  On Dec 30, 2015, at 1:01 PM, <ch...@wbmfg.com> <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  There is a ground testing method called the “decline of potential” or “fall 
of potential”.  You can do it with three ground rods, 100’ of cat 5 and a car 
battery.  In any event, you measure the resistance of your grounding systems.  
If it is not low enough you keep adding ground rods until it is.

  I have had to do this test for mining operations to make MSHA happy.  

  Fluke makes a nice special meter for this but you really don’t need it if you 
can measure volts, amps and have a car battery somewhere nearby.

  http://www.fluke.com/fluke/inen/solutions/earthground/fall-of-potential

  From: Joshaven Mailing Lists 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 10:28 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

  This is good stuff.   When replying I was worried that I was gonna get 
smeared for being that little voice in the background that keeps bringing up 
the grounding discussion.  It seems to always be the story that operators 
already have things grounded “properly” yet keep getting destroyed by surges.  
I would say that almost every tower I have visited has been poorly grounded.  A 
friend of mine who travels the country fixing issues for AM, FM & TV stations 
says the number one issue is grounding.  (I’ve picked his brain quite a lot to 
validate my opinions on this issue and owe much of my understanding to him.)  
Interestingly he also says that in some cases he has had to drive a well into 
the water table to get an adequate ground to fix sensitive locations.  So if 
your gauge of proper grounding stops at a 10’ rod next to the tower and you are 
still having problems then don’t dismiss the grounding question too easily.  
10’ into a layer of dry sand won’t fix your issue especially if you have split 
grounds like discussed below. 

  Sincerely,
  Joshaven Potter
  Google Hangouts: j...@g2wireless.co
  Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370
  supp...@joshaven.com




On Dec 30, 2015, at 12:06 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

You have two or more grounding circuits that are not bonded together 
properly.
Say one circuit for the tower and radio gear that goes into some ground 
rods and then the power company with their neutral and ground circuit.  If 
those two are not tied together with a very low impedance heavy duty connection 
you will generate a large voltage difference during strikes.

I prefer the PANI grounding system that the telco world uses.
Combine that with a halo /franklin system and I really do not know how much 
better you can do it.
Perhaps put up some ground towers like NASA does surrounding the space 
craft on the launch pad.

-Original Message- From: Jay Weekley
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 9:53 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

What is split grounding?

Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

  one of the most classic examples of a 'split ground' situation is when 
you loose gear with rain during hot days (first rains after dry season). 
Because there is rain involved most folks chalk this off to 'Lightning' ... in 
reality it is not, it is due to Tower Ground, Bldg Ground and Power Ground 
being at a different potential causing current to flow thru the ground wires 
etc.

  :)

  Faisal Imtiaz
  Snappy Internet & Telecom
  7266 SW 48 Street
  Miami, FL 33155
  Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

  Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net

  

 *From: *"George Skorup" <geo...@cbcast.com>
 *To: *af@afmug.com
 *Sent: *Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:15:33 AM
 *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

 For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year,
 I don't remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of
 popped fuses and surge suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined
 the site months before and we didn't have any problems. We finally
 figured 

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Joshaven Mailing Lists]

This is good stuff.   When replying I was worried that I was gonna get smeared 
for being that little voice in the background that keeps bringing up the 
grounding discussion.  It seems to always be the story that operators already 
have things grounded “properly” yet keep getting destroyed by surges.  I would 
say that almost every tower I have visited has been poorly grounded.  A friend 
of mine who travels the country fixing issues for AM, FM & TV stations says the 
number one issue is grounding.  (I’ve picked his brain quite a lot to validate 
my opinions on this issue and owe much of my understanding to him.)  
Interestingly he also says that in some cases he has had to drive a well into 
the water table to get an adequate ground to fix sensitive locations.  So if 
your gauge of proper grounding stops at a 10’ rod next to the tower and you are 
still having problems then don’t dismiss the grounding question too easily.  
10’ into a layer of dry sand won’t fix your issue especially if you have split 
grounds like discussed below.

Sincerely,
Joshaven Potter
Google Hangouts: j...@g2wireless.co
Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370
supp...@joshaven.com



> On Dec 30, 2015, at 12:06 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
> 
> You have two or more grounding circuits that are not bonded together properly.
> Say one circuit for the tower and radio gear that goes into some ground rods 
> and then the power company with their neutral and ground circuit.  If those 
> two are not tied together with a very low impedance heavy duty connection you 
> will generate a large voltage difference during strikes.
> 
> I prefer the PANI grounding system that the telco world uses.
> Combine that with a halo /franklin system and I really do not know how much 
> better you can do it.
> Perhaps put up some ground towers like NASA does surrounding the space craft 
> on the launch pad.
> 
> -Original Message- From: Jay Weekley
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 9:53 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
> 
> What is split grounding?
> 
> Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
>> one of the most classic examples of a 'split ground' situation is when you 
>> loose gear with rain during hot days (first rains after dry season). Because 
>> there is rain involved most folks chalk this off to 'Lightning' ... in 
>> reality it is not, it is due to Tower Ground, Bldg Ground and Power Ground 
>> being at a different potential causing current to flow thru the ground wires 
>> etc.
>> 
>> :)
>> 
>> Faisal Imtiaz
>> Snappy Internet & Telecom
>> 7266 SW 48 Street
>> Miami, FL 33155
>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
>> 
>> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net
>> 
>> ------------
>> 
>>*From: *"George Skorup" <geo...@cbcast.com>
>>*To: *af@afmug.com
>>*Sent: *Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:15:33 AM
>>*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
>> 
>>For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year,
>>I don't remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of
>>popped fuses and surge suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined
>>the site months before and we didn't have any problems. We finally
>>figured out that the grounding sorta got split. Everything was
>>still interconnected, just not optimally. So we all made sure that
>>everything was tied to a single point, aka R56. No more issues. We
>>do still get some popped fuses once in a while, but that's mostly
>>Chuck's surge suppressors clamping on nearby lightning strikes.
>>I'd rather have that than dead or degraded ethernet ports.
>> 
>>It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've
>>noticed this pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for
>>a lot of the year, we lose more gear. Which brings up another
>>point. Up to a couple years ago, we had a site where we'd lose
>>everything 2-3 times per year. The power company came out and ran
>>a load test at our transformer. 20A is all it would do. The ground
>>rod at the pole/transformer was almost completely gone. I think
>>they said there was maybe 2 feet left and they pulled it out by
>>hand. Of course it was probably 40 years old.
>> 
>>On 12/29/2015 10:28 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
>> 
>>When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We
>>take great care to insure we follow sound methodology and take
>>no short cuts.  I have shared many posts on how we do it...
>>basica

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[George Skorup]

I know in one instance they claimed it was the farming chemicals in the 
soil that corroded the anchors. Apparently the insurance co bought the 
story.


On 12/30/2015 3:10 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Yeah, one big one fell across I-80 near her a few years ago.
I am surprised you can get insurance for a guyed tower.
*From:* George Skorup <mailto:geo...@cbcast.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 30, 2015 2:08 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
The other problem besides lightning strikes on guy points with 
improper/broken grounding is electrolysis. There is always current 
flowing on the guy wires. Anchor material is slowly reclaimed by the 
earth if you do not properly ground the guy wires (not the preforms, 
not the anchor). I've seen at least two guyed towers collapse from 
this. The anchor rods were just gone.


On 12/30/2015 1:35 PM, Joshaven Mailing Lists wrote:
Not to knock a successful ground solution at all but the welded 
intersection comment brought up another common mistake in grounding… 
try to have good paths for the current.  Not cob-job connections 
(welded is great) and not a bunch of 90º connection points.
I think most people would look at the following grounding and call 
that good enough… but it wasn’t. Suboptimal connection points and 
zigzag paths to ground can cause major issues.
Source of pics above (worth a read): 
http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/pq/casestudy/a6137/a6137.html

Speaking of using listed components:
Sincerely,
Joshaven Potter
Google Hangouts: j...@g2wireless.co <mailto:j...@g2wireless.co>
Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370
supp...@joshaven.com <mailto:supp...@joshaven.com>



On Dec 30, 2015, at 1:21 PM, Bill Prince <part15...@gmail.com> wrote:
Our primary tower site has a 25x25 grid with rather large copper 
bars spaced on 5' centers, arranged in a waffle pattern. All welded 
at the crossing points with big 12' ground rods at each crossing 
point (also welded to the waffle pattern). There are numerous ground 
wires; not sure the gauge, but they are pretty large. The site has 
been very good WRT lightning, and we've never had an issue, in spite 
of this being the tallest point around for several miles.


bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>

On 12/30/2015 9:03 AM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
When you have multiple grounding rods at a site (e.g. for a tower 
ground, there should be a ring around the tower base, with multiple 
ground rods, they should all be connected together, i.e ring, and 
different tower legs should be connected to the different ground 
rods (don't forget the guy wires too...)


Split grounding is when the different grounding rods are not 
connected to each other...
Most common issue is that there is an Electrical ground (ground 
rod) which is not connected using a heavy gauge copper wire to the 
other (tower or shelter) grounding rods.


In a split ground situation, if you were to connect an ohm meter to 
these two different ground(s) you will see high resistance...and in 
many cases if you were to connect a volt meter, you can actually 
get a reading of a few volts flowing thru the two different 
grounds. In Hot Weather, when one side of the split ground gets 
wet, the voltage increases, and goes thru the electronic equipment 
(flowing in the wrong direction) causing Ethernet port damage at 
the very least and blowing equipment totally at the most.


Regards.

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net

- Original Message -
From: "CBB - Jay Fuller" <par...@cyberbroadband.net 
<mailto:par...@cyberbroadband.net>>

To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 11:53:07 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
What is split grounding?

Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
one of the most classic examples of a 'split ground' situation is 
when

you loose gear with rain during hot days (first rains after dry
season). Because there is rain involved most folks chalk this off to
'Lightning' ... in reality it is not, it is due to Tower Ground, Bldg
Ground and Power Ground being at a different potential causing 
current

to flow thru the ground wires etc.

:)

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net



*From: *"George Skorup" <geo...@cbcast.com>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:15:33 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year,
I don't remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of
popped fuses and surge suppressors. Our local 911 dispat

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Faisal Imtiaz]

one of the most classic examples of a 'split ground' situation is when you 
loose gear with rain during hot days (first rains after dry season). Because 
there is rain involved most folks chalk this off to 'Lightning' ... in reality 
it is not, it is due to Tower Ground, Bldg Ground and Power Ground being at a 
different potential causing current to flow thru the ground wires etc. 

:) 

Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
7266 SW 48 Street 
Miami, FL 33155 
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 

> From: "George Skorup" <geo...@cbcast.com>
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:15:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

> For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year, I don't
> remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of popped fuses and surge
> suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined the site months before and we 
> didn't
> have any problems. We finally figured out that the grounding sorta got split.
> Everything was still interconnected, just not optimally. So we all made sure
> that everything was tied to a single point, aka R56. No more issues. We do
> still get some popped fuses once in a while, but that's mostly Chuck's surge
> suppressors clamping on nearby lightning strikes. I'd rather have that than
> dead or degraded ethernet ports.

> It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've noticed this
> pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for a lot of the year, we 
> lose
> more gear. Which brings up another point. Up to a couple years ago, we had a
> site where we'd lose everything 2-3 times per year. The power company came out
> and ran a load test at our transformer. 20A is all it would do. The ground rod
> at the pole/transformer was almost completely gone. I think they said there 
> was
> maybe 2 feet left and they pulled it out by hand. Of course it was probably 40
> years old.

> On 12/29/2015 10:28 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:

>> When I wear my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat. We take great care to
>> insure we follow sound methodology and take no short cuts. I have shared many
>> posts on how we do it... basically all of it hinges of Franklin method. Those
>> who know me, know I don't pull punches...if we were getting hit allot I would
>> post it. Yes we have had hits and lost equipment but it is extremely rare.
>> Consider that one SCADA network alone has over 500 sites with elevated tanks,
>> towers and masts all with yagis, sectored and omni antennas with heliax
>> cabling. Wisps around here get more hits. I will share some links you might
>> find useful.
>> On Dec 29, 2015 8:08 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz" < fai...@snappytelecom.net > wrote:

>>> I thought about commenting, walked away, but decided to comment at the risk 
>>> of
>>> offending someone, but it would be worth it if the point being made and the
>>> information being shared was understood properly..

>>> So here goes... Joshaven took the time and provided a farily accurate, 
>>> detailed
>>> post on how to do grounding properly, and the potential issues when it is 
>>> not
>>> proper. There is a lot of good information in there.

>>> Glen I don't know if you realize what you did with your replies  while
>>> sounding dismissive you actually have described the exact thing that 
>>> Joshaven
>>> was trying to point out, as to what happens when grounding is not proper !

>>> 'Grounding' is not just running some copper wires to be visually 
>>> satisfying
>>> your statement about 'it is grounded pretty well...' followed by .. I have 
>>> lost
>>> equipment there is an Oxymoron

>>> Grounding when done correctly will protect your equipment from having the 
>>> type
>>> of damage you are describing and yes there are some ways to measure and
>>> determine if your grounding is proper !

>>> BTW, Audio affects of a Lightning strike, shaking stuff etc etc is due to 
>>> sound
>>> waves generated.. (sort of a mini explosion)... makes for great sound 
>>> effect,
>>> but has nothing to do with electrical damage to equipment.

>>> :)

>>> Faisal Imtiaz
>>> Snappy Internet & Telecom
>>> 7266 SW 48 Street
>>> Miami, FL 33155
>>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

>>> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net

>>>> From: "Glen Waldrop" < gwl...@cngwireless.net >
>>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 6:02:24 PM
>

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Joshaven Mailing Lists]

Kinda off topic... Insurance of another type (avoidance) 

I often find locations where the grounds are hooked up to the tower ground 
which includes one or more ground rods… but what often goes unrealized is that 
the system is also grounded to another system through the utility company… and 
the tower and the utility company may not be properly bonded.  So the lightning 
finds the big tower, and thinking it is a lightning rod… uses some of the path 
to ground through rods at the base of the tower but then also uses the path 
through the equipment to get to the power utility ground…. and pop goes the 
radio and router and such… Just don’t be that guy that connects the big 
lightening rod to the utility power ground through your router...

Your equipment should be surviving lightning strikes.  Large towers can be 
struck multiple times per month and equipment can be on them for years without 
any damage at all.  The fact that you lost equipment says that the strike was 
either direct to your equipment or you have a grounding issue that made your 
equipment a better path to ground.

At some sites commercial radio engineers will even bring in a beaded cable from 
the tower and spread it across the floor to set all equipment on just to be 
sure that the ground panes are entirely bonded.  The reason that equipment 
blows is that the difference in positive to negative current is out of range.  
When you get a lightning strike and things are not well bonded then you can 
have variances between grounds in the order of thousands of volts which will 
make your equipment pop like a fire cracker…  if your ground is at 10,000v 
(relative to an average earth voltage) and your equipment is at 10,024v then 
the potential between them is 24v.  It is like a bird setting on a high voltage 
line… somehow they don’t “feel” the high voltage… The trick to surviving a 
lightning strike is to bond all grounds well so ground is constant and then to 
have your power level referenced from that ground.  This way if the earth 
ground or the tower ground or anything else has a sudden change then your 
equipment changes with it and remains relatively the same.  After bonding your 
grounds properly so that you don’t end up with thousands of volts difference 
between two grounds like your power company ground and the tower that your 
equipment is mounted to… then you can install good surge equipment that will 
handle current overages in the event that you need it.

The thing to keep in mind when grounding your equipment is that you don’t want 
your equipment to experience a situation like 0v for negative, 24v for positive 
and 50,000v for ground.  If your equipment ground plane floats with a strike 
then it won’t even know that it experienced a surge.  Just like a boat going 
over shallower and deeper water — who knew unless they had a fish finder 
running?  

During a strike, you don’t want a 5,000v on the utility ground while you have a 
25,000v on the tower… If the cable between the two (or patch of earth between 
rods) won’t handle the surge or the impedance is too high then your equipment 
will possibly have two grounds with two very different power levels so the 
power will transfer from your shielded cable through your router chassis to the 
utility power until a something pops.  The bottom line make the tower, earth, & 
utility power all the same and properly ground your equipment to that and 
you’ll survive most strikes perfectly fine.

if you want some good reading google the terms: “copper.org lightning”  they 
have some great write-ups with pictures of the good, bad and ugly.

Sincerely,
Joshaven Potter
Google Hangouts: j...@g2wireless.co
Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370
supp...@joshaven.com



> On Dec 27, 2015, at 10:31 PM, Craig House  wrote:
> 
> 2 in a year?  We had 7 last night.   
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Dec 27, 2015, at 21:22, Glen Waldrop  > wrote:
> 
>> We’ve had another lightning strike, at least the second one this year.
>> 
>> I’ve got this feeling that our insurance company is probably going to start 
>> to get a little difficult in the near future.
>> 
>> Who do you guys recommend?
>> 
>> I’ve read about a few that cover everything, CPE, tower equipment, towers, 
>> labor, etc... I imagine those probably cost roughly what we bring in a year, 
>> but...
>>  
>> Thanks guys.
>>  
>>  

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[chuck]

R56 methods seem to help.  

From: Glen Waldrop 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 4:02 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

Forgot to mention, this was one hell of a storm.

Lightning from *several* miles away shook my home enough that the dishes 
rattled, the TV moved, cabinet doors opened and closed, etc, for upwards of 45 
seconds.

I’m honestly surprised we only lost one tower in that storm. I was preparing 
myself for putting up at least a couple of replacement towers over my Christmas 
break instead of goofing with the wife and kids. We got lucky and only lost 
some electronics.



From: Glen Waldrop 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 4:57 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

It is grounded pretty well, couple of ground rods, tower is grounded and the 
copper goes to the top, tallest point for quite a ways out there. The strike 
also blew out the neighboring transformer (didn’t hit my equipment directly).

I have not been tying in my electrical ground with my tower ground. I do 
believe I’m about to change that.

I do have a few other towers where the electrical ground is tied into the tower 
ground which is also tied to a copper wire (6 or 8, depending on what I had at 
the time) the entire length of the tower, bolted to the tower at the top and 
bottom.

Those have also been struck.

One of my most recent ones ran up the ethernet cable, fried the equipment at 
the top. POE on the ground survived, UPS survived and the surge suppressor 
(10/100M fusible link essentially) survived. The only radio to survive the 
strike was the only one I had forgotten to install a suppressor on. They were 
all replaced of course. The only equipment I’ve seen survive an actual 
lightning strike without a hiccup is the RB600. Everything else seems to die 
within 6 months.

It appears the surge went through the ground (which we’ve gone over several 
times) into the surge suppressor, into the ethernet and blew out the radios.

Any speculation on that would be awesome. The only thing that makes sense is 
that maybe the static was close enough to hit the electrical ground and go up 
the tower, but we’ve checked the ground rods and copper, bolts, etc.




From: Joshaven Mailing Lists 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 1:18 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

Kinda off topic... Insurance of another type (avoidance) 

I often find locations where the grounds are hooked up to the tower ground 
which includes one or more ground rods… but what often goes unrealized is that 
the system is also grounded to another system through the utility company… and 
the tower and the utility company may not be properly bonded.  So the lightning 
finds the big tower, and thinking it is a lightning rod… uses some of the path 
to ground through rods at the base of the tower but then also uses the path 
through the equipment to get to the power utility ground…. and pop goes the 
radio and router and such… Just don’t be that guy that connects the big 
lightening rod to the utility power ground through your router...


Your equipment should be surviving lightning strikes.  Large towers can be 
struck multiple times per month and equipment can be on them for years without 
any damage at all.  The fact that you lost equipment says that the strike was 
either direct to your equipment or you have a grounding issue that made your 
equipment a better path to ground.

At some sites commercial radio engineers will even bring in a beaded cable from 
the tower and spread it across the floor to set all equipment on just to be 
sure that the ground panes are entirely bonded.  The reason that equipment 
blows is that the difference in positive to negative current is out of range.  
When you get a lightning strike and things are not well bonded then you can 
have variances between grounds in the order of thousands of volts which will 
make your equipment pop like a fire cracker…  if your ground is at 10,000v 
(relative to an average earth voltage) and your equipment is at 10,024v then 
the potential between them is 24v.  It is like a bird setting on a high voltage 
line… somehow they don’t “feel” the high voltage… The trick to surviving a 
lightning strike is to bond all grounds well so ground is constant and then to 
have your power level referenced from that ground.  This way if the earth 
ground or the tower ground or anything else has a sudden change then your 
equipment changes with it and remains relatively the same.  After bonding your 
grounds properly so that you don’t end up with thousands of volts difference 
between two grounds like your power company ground and the tower that your 
equipment is mounted to… then you can install good surge equipment that will 
handle current overages in the event that you need it.

The thing to keep in mind when grounding your equipment is that you don’t want 
your equipment to experience a situation like 0v for negative, 24v for positive 
and 50,000v

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Joshaven Mailing Lists]

A few notes on grounding and lightning that are worth peaking at:

“Florida 911 Center Upgrades Lightning Protection System for Maximum Safety”
http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/pq/casestudy/florida911.html 
<http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/pq/casestudy/florida911.html>

"Proper Copper Grounding Systems Stops Lightning Damage at Nebraska FM Station"
http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/pq/casestudy/nebraska.html 
<http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/pq/casestudy/nebraska.html>


Sincerely,
Joshaven Potter
Google Hangouts: j...@g2wireless.co
Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370
supp...@joshaven.com



> On Dec 29, 2015, at 5:34 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
> 
> About lightening... there is stuff there but didn’t find the lightening 
> stuff. 
>  
> From: ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 3:33 PM
> To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
>  
> Did not find anything at copper.org
>  
> From: Joshaven Mailing Lists <mailto:lis...@joshaven.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 12:18 PM
> To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
>  
> Kinda off topic... Insurance of another type (avoidance)
>  
> I often find locations where the grounds are hooked up to the tower ground 
> which includes one or more ground rods… but what often goes unrealized is 
> that the system is also grounded to another system through the utility 
> company… and the tower and the utility company may not be properly bonded.  
> So the lightning finds the big tower, and thinking it is a lightning rod… 
> uses some of the path to ground through rods at the base of the tower but 
> then also uses the path through the equipment to get to the power utility 
> ground…. and pop goes the radio and router and such… Just don’t be that guy 
> that connects the big lightening rod to the utility power ground through your 
> router...
>  
> Your equipment should be surviving lightning strikes.  Large towers can be 
> struck multiple times per month and equipment can be on them for years 
> without any damage at all.  The fact that you lost equipment says that the 
> strike was either direct to your equipment or you have a grounding issue that 
> made your equipment a better path to ground.
>  
> At some sites commercial radio engineers will even bring in a beaded cable 
> from the tower and spread it across the floor to set all equipment on just to 
> be sure that the ground panes are entirely bonded.  The reason that equipment 
> blows is that the difference in positive to negative current is out of range. 
>  When you get a lightning strike and things are not well bonded then you can 
> have variances between grounds in the order of thousands of volts which will 
> make your equipment pop like a fire cracker…  if your ground is at 10,000v 
> (relative to an average earth voltage) and your equipment is at 10,024v then 
> the potential between them is 24v.  It is like a bird setting on a high 
> voltage line… somehow they don’t “feel” the high voltage… The trick to 
> surviving a lightning strike is to bond all grounds well so ground is 
> constant and then to have your power level referenced from that ground.  This 
> way if the earth ground or the tower ground or anything else has a sudden 
> change then your equipment changes with it and remains relatively the same.  
> After bonding your grounds properly so that you don’t end up with thousands 
> of volts difference between two grounds like your power company ground and 
> the tower that your equipment is mounted to… then you can install good surge 
> equipment that will handle current overages in the event that you need it.
>  
> The thing to keep in mind when grounding your equipment is that you don’t 
> want your equipment to experience a situation like 0v for negative, 24v for 
> positive and 50,000v for ground.  If your equipment ground plane floats with 
> a strike then it won’t even know that it experienced a surge.  Just like a 
> boat going over shallower and deeper water — who knew unless they had a fish 
> finder running? 
>  
> During a strike, you don’t want a 5,000v on the utility ground while you have 
> a 25,000v on the tower… If the cable between the two (or patch of earth 
> between rods) won’t handle the surge or the impedance is too high then your 
> equipment will possibly have two grounds with two very different power levels 
> so the power will transfer from your shielded cable through your router 
> chassis to the utility power until a something pops.  The bottom line make 
> the tower, earth, & utility power all the same and properly ground your 
> equipment to 

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Glen Waldrop]

Forgot to mention, this was one hell of a storm.

Lightning from *several* miles away shook my home enough that the dishes 
rattled, the TV moved, cabinet doors opened and closed, etc, for upwards of 45 
seconds.

I’m honestly surprised we only lost one tower in that storm. I was preparing 
myself for putting up at least a couple of replacement towers over my Christmas 
break instead of goofing with the wife and kids. We got lucky and only lost 
some electronics.



From: Glen Waldrop 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 4:57 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

It is grounded pretty well, couple of ground rods, tower is grounded and the 
copper goes to the top, tallest point for quite a ways out there. The strike 
also blew out the neighboring transformer (didn’t hit my equipment directly).

I have not been tying in my electrical ground with my tower ground. I do 
believe I’m about to change that.

I do have a few other towers where the electrical ground is tied into the tower 
ground which is also tied to a copper wire (6 or 8, depending on what I had at 
the time) the entire length of the tower, bolted to the tower at the top and 
bottom.

Those have also been struck.

One of my most recent ones ran up the ethernet cable, fried the equipment at 
the top. POE on the ground survived, UPS survived and the surge suppressor 
(10/100M fusible link essentially) survived. The only radio to survive the 
strike was the only one I had forgotten to install a suppressor on. They were 
all replaced of course. The only equipment I’ve seen survive an actual 
lightning strike without a hiccup is the RB600. Everything else seems to die 
within 6 months.

It appears the surge went through the ground (which we’ve gone over several 
times) into the surge suppressor, into the ethernet and blew out the radios.

Any speculation on that would be awesome. The only thing that makes sense is 
that maybe the static was close enough to hit the electrical ground and go up 
the tower, but we’ve checked the ground rods and copper, bolts, etc.




From: Joshaven Mailing Lists 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 1:18 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

Kinda off topic... Insurance of another type (avoidance) 

I often find locations where the grounds are hooked up to the tower ground 
which includes one or more ground rods… but what often goes unrealized is that 
the system is also grounded to another system through the utility company… and 
the tower and the utility company may not be properly bonded.  So the lightning 
finds the big tower, and thinking it is a lightning rod… uses some of the path 
to ground through rods at the base of the tower but then also uses the path 
through the equipment to get to the power utility ground…. and pop goes the 
radio and router and such… Just don’t be that guy that connects the big 
lightening rod to the utility power ground through your router...


Your equipment should be surviving lightning strikes.  Large towers can be 
struck multiple times per month and equipment can be on them for years without 
any damage at all.  The fact that you lost equipment says that the strike was 
either direct to your equipment or you have a grounding issue that made your 
equipment a better path to ground.

At some sites commercial radio engineers will even bring in a beaded cable from 
the tower and spread it across the floor to set all equipment on just to be 
sure that the ground panes are entirely bonded.  The reason that equipment 
blows is that the difference in positive to negative current is out of range.  
When you get a lightning strike and things are not well bonded then you can 
have variances between grounds in the order of thousands of volts which will 
make your equipment pop like a fire cracker…  if your ground is at 10,000v 
(relative to an average earth voltage) and your equipment is at 10,024v then 
the potential between them is 24v.  It is like a bird setting on a high voltage 
line… somehow they don’t “feel” the high voltage… The trick to surviving a 
lightning strike is to bond all grounds well so ground is constant and then to 
have your power level referenced from that ground.  This way if the earth 
ground or the tower ground or anything else has a sudden change then your 
equipment changes with it and remains relatively the same.  After bonding your 
grounds properly so that you don’t end up with thousands of volts difference 
between two grounds like your power company ground and the tower that your 
equipment is mounted to… then you can install good surge equipment that will 
handle current overages in the event that you need it.

The thing to keep in mind when grounding your equipment is that you don’t want 
your equipment to experience a situation like 0v for negative, 24v for positive 
and 50,000v for ground.  If your equipment ground plane floats with a strike 
then it won’t even know that it experienced a surge.  Just like a boat going 
over

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Glen Waldrop]

It is grounded pretty well, couple of ground rods, tower is grounded and the 
copper goes to the top, tallest point for quite a ways out there. The strike 
also blew out the neighboring transformer (didn’t hit my equipment directly).

I have not been tying in my electrical ground with my tower ground. I do 
believe I’m about to change that.

I do have a few other towers where the electrical ground is tied into the tower 
ground which is also tied to a copper wire (6 or 8, depending on what I had at 
the time) the entire length of the tower, bolted to the tower at the top and 
bottom.

Those have also been struck.

One of my most recent ones ran up the ethernet cable, fried the equipment at 
the top. POE on the ground survived, UPS survived and the surge suppressor 
(10/100M fusible link essentially) survived. The only radio to survive the 
strike was the only one I had forgotten to install a suppressor on. They were 
all replaced of course. The only equipment I’ve seen survive an actual 
lightning strike without a hiccup is the RB600. Everything else seems to die 
within 6 months.

It appears the surge went through the ground (which we’ve gone over several 
times) into the surge suppressor, into the ethernet and blew out the radios.

Any speculation on that would be awesome. The only thing that makes sense is 
that maybe the static was close enough to hit the electrical ground and go up 
the tower, but we’ve checked the ground rods and copper, bolts, etc.




From: Joshaven Mailing Lists 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 1:18 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

Kinda off topic... Insurance of another type (avoidance) 

I often find locations where the grounds are hooked up to the tower ground 
which includes one or more ground rods… but what often goes unrealized is that 
the system is also grounded to another system through the utility company… and 
the tower and the utility company may not be properly bonded.  So the lightning 
finds the big tower, and thinking it is a lightning rod… uses some of the path 
to ground through rods at the base of the tower but then also uses the path 
through the equipment to get to the power utility ground…. and pop goes the 
radio and router and such… Just don’t be that guy that connects the big 
lightening rod to the utility power ground through your router...


Your equipment should be surviving lightning strikes.  Large towers can be 
struck multiple times per month and equipment can be on them for years without 
any damage at all.  The fact that you lost equipment says that the strike was 
either direct to your equipment or you have a grounding issue that made your 
equipment a better path to ground.

At some sites commercial radio engineers will even bring in a beaded cable from 
the tower and spread it across the floor to set all equipment on just to be 
sure that the ground panes are entirely bonded.  The reason that equipment 
blows is that the difference in positive to negative current is out of range.  
When you get a lightning strike and things are not well bonded then you can 
have variances between grounds in the order of thousands of volts which will 
make your equipment pop like a fire cracker…  if your ground is at 10,000v 
(relative to an average earth voltage) and your equipment is at 10,024v then 
the potential between them is 24v.  It is like a bird setting on a high voltage 
line… somehow they don’t “feel” the high voltage… The trick to surviving a 
lightning strike is to bond all grounds well so ground is constant and then to 
have your power level referenced from that ground.  This way if the earth 
ground or the tower ground or anything else has a sudden change then your 
equipment changes with it and remains relatively the same.  After bonding your 
grounds properly so that you don’t end up with thousands of volts difference 
between two grounds like your power company ground and the tower that your 
equipment is mounted to… then you can install good surge equipment that will 
handle current overages in the event that you need it.

The thing to keep in mind when grounding your equipment is that you don’t want 
your equipment to experience a situation like 0v for negative, 24v for positive 
and 50,000v for ground.  If your equipment ground plane floats with a strike 
then it won’t even know that it experienced a surge.  Just like a boat going 
over shallower and deeper water — who knew unless they had a fish finder 
running?  

During a strike, you don’t want a 5,000v on the utility ground while you have a 
25,000v on the tower… If the cable between the two (or patch of earth between 
rods) won’t handle the surge or the impedance is too high then your equipment 
will possibly have two grounds with two very different power levels so the 
power will transfer from your shielded cable through your router chassis to the 
utility power until a something pops.  The bottom line make the tower, earth, & 
utility power all the 

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[chuck]

Did not find anything at copper.org

From: Joshaven Mailing Lists 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 12:18 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

Kinda off topic... Insurance of another type (avoidance) 

I often find locations where the grounds are hooked up to the tower ground 
which includes one or more ground rods… but what often goes unrealized is that 
the system is also grounded to another system through the utility company… and 
the tower and the utility company may not be properly bonded.  So the lightning 
finds the big tower, and thinking it is a lightning rod… uses some of the path 
to ground through rods at the base of the tower but then also uses the path 
through the equipment to get to the power utility ground…. and pop goes the 
radio and router and such… Just don’t be that guy that connects the big 
lightening rod to the utility power ground through your router...


Your equipment should be surviving lightning strikes.  Large towers can be 
struck multiple times per month and equipment can be on them for years without 
any damage at all.  The fact that you lost equipment says that the strike was 
either direct to your equipment or you have a grounding issue that made your 
equipment a better path to ground.

At some sites commercial radio engineers will even bring in a beaded cable from 
the tower and spread it across the floor to set all equipment on just to be 
sure that the ground panes are entirely bonded.  The reason that equipment 
blows is that the difference in positive to negative current is out of range.  
When you get a lightning strike and things are not well bonded then you can 
have variances between grounds in the order of thousands of volts which will 
make your equipment pop like a fire cracker…  if your ground is at 10,000v 
(relative to an average earth voltage) and your equipment is at 10,024v then 
the potential between them is 24v.  It is like a bird setting on a high voltage 
line… somehow they don’t “feel” the high voltage… The trick to surviving a 
lightning strike is to bond all grounds well so ground is constant and then to 
have your power level referenced from that ground.  This way if the earth 
ground or the tower ground or anything else has a sudden change then your 
equipment changes with it and remains relatively the same.  After bonding your 
grounds properly so that you don’t end up with thousands of volts difference 
between two grounds like your power company ground and the tower that your 
equipment is mounted to… then you can install good surge equipment that will 
handle current overages in the event that you need it.

The thing to keep in mind when grounding your equipment is that you don’t want 
your equipment to experience a situation like 0v for negative, 24v for positive 
and 50,000v for ground.  If your equipment ground plane floats with a strike 
then it won’t even know that it experienced a surge.  Just like a boat going 
over shallower and deeper water — who knew unless they had a fish finder 
running?  

During a strike, you don’t want a 5,000v on the utility ground while you have a 
25,000v on the tower… If the cable between the two (or patch of earth between 
rods) won’t handle the surge or the impedance is too high then your equipment 
will possibly have two grounds with two very different power levels so the 
power will transfer from your shielded cable through your router chassis to the 
utility power until a something pops.  The bottom line make the tower, earth, & 
utility power all the same and properly ground your equipment to that and 
you’ll survive most strikes perfectly fine.

if you want some good reading google the terms: “copper.org lightning”  they 
have some great write-ups with pictures of the good, bad and ugly.

Sincerely,
Joshaven Potter
Google Hangouts: j...@g2wireless.co
Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370
supp...@joshaven.com




  On Dec 27, 2015, at 10:31 PM, Craig House <cr...@totalhighspeed.net> wrote:

  2 in a year?  We had 7 last night.   

  Sent from my iPhone

  On Dec 27, 2015, at 21:22, Glen Waldrop <gwl...@cngwireless.net> wrote:


We’ve had another lightning strike, at least the second one this year.

I’ve got this feeling that our insurance company is probably going to start 
to get a little difficult in the near future.

Who do you guys recommend?

I’ve read about a few that cover everything, CPE, tower equipment, towers, 
labor, etc... I imagine those probably cost roughly what we bring in a year, 
but...

Thanks guys.

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Jaime Solorza]

When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We take great
care to insure we follow sound methodology and take no short cuts.  I have
shared many posts on how we do it... basically all of it hinges of Franklin
method.  Those who know me, know I don't pull punches...if we were getting
hit allot I would post it.  Yes we have had hits and lost equipment but it
is extremely rare. Consider that one SCADA network alone  has over 500
sites with elevated tanks, towers and masts all with yagis, sectored and
omni antennas with heliax cabling.  Wisps around here get more hits.  I
will share some links you might find useful.
On Dec 29, 2015 8:08 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz" <fai...@snappytelecom.net> wrote:

> I thought about commenting, walked away,  but decided to comment at the
> risk of offending someone, but it would be worth it if the point being made
> and the information being shared was understood properly..
>
> So here goes... Joshaven took the time and provided a farily accurate,
> detailed post on how to do grounding properly, and the potential issues
> when it is not proper. There is a lot of good information in there.
>
> Glen I don't know if you realize what you did with your replies  while
> sounding dismissive you actually have described the exact thing that
> Joshaven was trying to point out, as to what happens when grounding is not
> proper !
>
> 'Grounding' is not just running some copper wires to be visually
> satisfying your statement about  'it is grounded pretty well...'
>  followed by .. I have lost equipment there is an Oxymoron
>
> Grounding when done correctly will protect your equipment from having the
> type of damage you are describing and yes there are some ways to
> measure and determine if your grounding is proper !
>
>
> BTW, Audio affects of a Lightning strike,  shaking stuff etc etc is due to
> sound waves generated.. (sort of a mini explosion)... makes for great sound
> effect, but has nothing to do with electrical damage to equipment.
>
> :)
>
>
>
> Faisal Imtiaz
> Snappy Internet & Telecom
> 7266 SW 48 Street
> Miami, FL 33155
> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
>
> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net
>
> --
>
> *From: *"Glen Waldrop" <gwl...@cngwireless.net>
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Tuesday, December 29, 2015 6:02:24 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
>
> Forgot to mention, this was one hell of a storm.
>
> Lightning from *several* miles away shook my home enough that the dishes
> rattled, the TV moved, cabinet doors opened and closed, etc, for upwards of
> 45 seconds.
>
> I’m honestly surprised we only lost one tower in that storm. I was
> preparing myself for putting up at least a couple of replacement towers
> over my Christmas break instead of goofing with the wife and kids. We got
> lucky and only lost some electronics.
>
>
>
> *From:* Glen Waldrop <gwl...@cngwireless.net>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 29, 2015 4:57 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
>
> It is grounded pretty well, couple of ground rods, tower is grounded and
> the copper goes to the top, tallest point for quite a ways out there. The
> strike also blew out the neighboring transformer (didn’t hit my equipment
> directly).
>
> I have not been tying in my electrical ground with my tower ground. I do
> believe I’m about to change that.
>
> I do have a few other towers where the electrical ground is tied into the
> tower ground which is also tied to a copper wire (6 or 8, depending on what
> I had at the time) the entire length of the tower, bolted to the tower at
> the top and bottom.
>
> Those have also been struck.
>
> One of my most recent ones ran up the ethernet cable, fried the equipment
> at the top. POE on the ground survived, UPS survived and the surge
> suppressor (10/100M fusible link essentially) survived. The only radio to
> survive the strike was the only one I had forgotten to install a suppressor
> on. They were all replaced of course. The only equipment I’ve seen survive
> an actual lightning strike without a hiccup is the RB600. Everything else
> seems to die within 6 months.
>
> It appears the surge went through the ground (which we’ve gone over
> several times) into the surge suppressor, into the ethernet and blew out
> the radios.
>
> Any speculation on that would be awesome. The only thing that makes sense
> is that maybe the static was close enough to hit the electrical ground and
> go up the tower, but we’ve checked the ground rods and copper, bolts, etc.
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Joshaven Mailing Lists <lis...@joshaven.com>
> *Sent:* T

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Jaime Solorza]

Check out Erico website... they have an excellent PDF you can download.
On Dec 29, 2015 9:28 PM, "Jaime Solorza" <losguyswirel...@gmail.com> wrote:

> When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We take great
> care to insure we follow sound methodology and take no short cuts.  I have
> shared many posts on how we do it... basically all of it hinges of Franklin
> method.  Those who know me, know I don't pull punches...if we were getting
> hit allot I would post it.  Yes we have had hits and lost equipment but it
> is extremely rare. Consider that one SCADA network alone  has over 500
> sites with elevated tanks, towers and masts all with yagis, sectored and
> omni antennas with heliax cabling.  Wisps around here get more hits.  I
> will share some links you might find useful.
> On Dec 29, 2015 8:08 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz" <fai...@snappytelecom.net> wrote:
>
>> I thought about commenting, walked away,  but decided to comment at the
>> risk of offending someone, but it would be worth it if the point being made
>> and the information being shared was understood properly..
>>
>> So here goes... Joshaven took the time and provided a farily accurate,
>> detailed post on how to do grounding properly, and the potential issues
>> when it is not proper. There is a lot of good information in there.
>>
>> Glen I don't know if you realize what you did with your replies 
>> while sounding dismissive you actually have described the exact thing that
>> Joshaven was trying to point out, as to what happens when grounding is not
>> proper !
>>
>> 'Grounding' is not just running some copper wires to be visually
>> satisfying your statement about  'it is grounded pretty well...'
>>  followed by .. I have lost equipment there is an Oxymoron
>>
>> Grounding when done correctly will protect your equipment from having the
>> type of damage you are describing and yes there are some ways to
>> measure and determine if your grounding is proper !
>>
>>
>> BTW, Audio affects of a Lightning strike,  shaking stuff etc etc is due
>> to sound waves generated.. (sort of a mini explosion)... makes for great
>> sound effect, but has nothing to do with electrical damage to equipment.
>>
>> :)
>>
>>
>>
>> Faisal Imtiaz
>> Snappy Internet & Telecom
>> 7266 SW 48 Street
>> Miami, FL 33155
>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
>>
>> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net
>>
>> --
>>
>> *From: *"Glen Waldrop" <gwl...@cngwireless.net>
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Tuesday, December 29, 2015 6:02:24 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
>>
>> Forgot to mention, this was one hell of a storm.
>>
>> Lightning from *several* miles away shook my home enough that the dishes
>> rattled, the TV moved, cabinet doors opened and closed, etc, for upwards of
>> 45 seconds.
>>
>> I’m honestly surprised we only lost one tower in that storm. I was
>> preparing myself for putting up at least a couple of replacement towers
>> over my Christmas break instead of goofing with the wife and kids. We got
>> lucky and only lost some electronics.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Glen Waldrop <gwl...@cngwireless.net>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 29, 2015 4:57 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
>>
>> It is grounded pretty well, couple of ground rods, tower is grounded and
>> the copper goes to the top, tallest point for quite a ways out there. The
>> strike also blew out the neighboring transformer (didn’t hit my equipment
>> directly).
>>
>> I have not been tying in my electrical ground with my tower ground. I do
>> believe I’m about to change that.
>>
>> I do have a few other towers where the electrical ground is tied into the
>> tower ground which is also tied to a copper wire (6 or 8, depending on what
>> I had at the time) the entire length of the tower, bolted to the tower at
>> the top and bottom.
>>
>> Those have also been struck.
>>
>> One of my most recent ones ran up the ethernet cable, fried the equipment
>> at the top. POE on the ground survived, UPS survived and the surge
>> suppressor (10/100M fusible link essentially) survived. The only radio to
>> survive the strike was the only one I had forgotten to install a suppressor
>> on. They were all replaced of course. The only equipment I’ve seen survive
>> an actual lightning strike without a hiccup is the RB600. Everything else

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Faisal Imtiaz]

I thought about commenting, walked away, but decided to comment at the risk of 
offending someone, but it would be worth it if the point being made and the 
information being shared was understood properly.. 

So here goes... Joshaven took the time and provided a farily accurate, detailed 
post on how to do grounding properly, and the potential issues when it is not 
proper. There is a lot of good information in there. 

Glen I don't know if you realize what you did with your replies  while 
sounding dismissive you actually have described the exact thing that Joshaven 
was trying to point out, as to what happens when grounding is not proper ! 

'Grounding' is not just running some copper wires to be visually satisfying 
your statement about 'it is grounded pretty well...' followed by .. I have lost 
equipment there is an Oxymoron 

Grounding when done correctly will protect your equipment from having the type 
of damage you are describing and yes there are some ways to measure and 
determine if your grounding is proper ! 

BTW, Audio affects of a Lightning strike, shaking stuff etc etc is due to sound 
waves generated.. (sort of a mini explosion)... makes for great sound effect, 
but has nothing to do with electrical damage to equipment. 

:) 

Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
7266 SW 48 Street 
Miami, FL 33155 
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 

> From: "Glen Waldrop" <gwl...@cngwireless.net>
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 6:02:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

> Forgot to mention, this was one hell of a storm.

> Lightning from *several* miles away shook my home enough that the dishes
> rattled, the TV moved, cabinet doors opened and closed, etc, for upwards of 45
> seconds.

> I’m honestly surprised we only lost one tower in that storm. I was preparing
> myself for putting up at least a couple of replacement towers over my 
> Christmas
> break instead of goofing with the wife and kids. We got lucky and only lost
> some electronics.
> From: Glen Waldrop
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 4:57 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
> It is grounded pretty well, couple of ground rods, tower is grounded and the
> copper goes to the top, tallest point for quite a ways out there. The strike
> also blew out the neighboring transformer (didn’t hit my equipment directly).

> I have not been tying in my electrical ground with my tower ground. I do 
> believe
> I’m about to change that.
> I do have a few other towers where the electrical ground is tied into the 
> tower
> ground which is also tied to a copper wire (6 or 8, depending on what I had at
> the time) the entire length of the tower, bolted to the tower at the top and
> bottom.

> Those have also been struck.

> One of my most recent ones ran up the ethernet cable, fried the equipment at 
> the
> top. POE on the ground survived, UPS survived and the surge suppressor 
> (10/100M
> fusible link essentially) survived. The only radio to survive the strike was
> the only one I had forgotten to install a suppressor on. They were all 
> replaced
> of course. The only equipment I’ve seen survive an actual lightning strike
> without a hiccup is the RB600. Everything else seems to die within 6 months.

> It appears the surge went through the ground (which we’ve gone over several
> times) into the surge suppressor, into the ethernet and blew out the radios.

> Any speculation on that would be awesome. The only thing that makes sense is
> that maybe the static was close enough to hit the electrical ground and go up
> the tower, but we’ve checked the ground rods and copper, bolts, etc.
> From: Joshaven Mailing Lists
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 1:18 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
> Kinda off topic... Insurance of another type (avoidance)
> I often find locations where the grounds are hooked up to the tower ground 
> which
> includes one or more ground rods… but what often goes unrealized is that the
> system is also grounded to another system through the utility company… and the
> tower and the utility company may not be properly bonded. So the lightning
> finds the big tower, and thinking it is a lightning rod… uses some of the path
> to ground through rods at the base of the tower but then also uses the path
> through the equipment to get to the power utility ground…. and pop goes the
> radio and router and such… Just don’t be that guy that connects the big
> lightening rod to the utility power ground through your router...
> Your equipment should be surviving lightning strikes. Large towers can be 
> struck
> multiple times per month and equipment can be on them for years with

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[George Skorup]

For about a month at one site during the summer (maybe last year, I 
don't remember, too much shit in my head), we got a bunch of popped 
fuses and surge suppressors. Our local 911 dispatch joined the site 
months before and we didn't have any problems. We finally figured out 
that the grounding sorta got split. Everything was still interconnected, 
just not optimally. So we all made sure that everything was tied to a 
single point, aka R56. No more issues. We do still get some popped fuses 
once in a while, but that's mostly Chuck's surge suppressors clamping on 
nearby lightning strikes. I'd rather have that than dead or degraded 
ethernet ports.


It was also a very wet spring and then things dried out. We've noticed 
this pattern for >10 years. If the soil is pretty dry for a lot of the 
year, we lose more gear. Which brings up another point. Up to a couple 
years ago, we had a site where we'd lose everything 2-3 times per year. 
The power company came out and ran a load test at our transformer. 20A 
is all it would do. The ground rod at the pole/transformer was almost 
completely gone. I think they said there was maybe 2 feet left and they 
pulled it out by hand. Of course it was probably 40 years old.


On 12/29/2015 10:28 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:


When I wear  my SCADA hat grounding takes a front seat.   We take 
great care to insure we follow sound methodology and take no short 
cuts.  I have shared many posts on how we do it... basically all of it 
hinges of Franklin method.  Those who know me, know I don't pull 
punches...if we were getting hit allot I would post it.  Yes we have 
had hits and lost equipment but it is extremely rare. Consider that 
one SCADA network alone has over 500 sites with elevated tanks, towers 
and masts all with yagis, sectored and omni antennas with heliax 
cabling. Wisps around here get more hits.  I will share some links you 
might find useful.


On Dec 29, 2015 8:08 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz" <fai...@snappytelecom.net 
<mailto:fai...@snappytelecom.net>> wrote:


I thought about commenting, walked away,  but decided to comment
at the risk of offending someone, but it would be worth it if the
point being made and the information being shared was understood
properly..

So here goes... Joshaven took the time and provided a farily
accurate, detailed post on how to do grounding properly, and the
potential issues when it is not proper. There is a lot of good
information in there.

Glen I don't know if you realize what you did with your replies
 while sounding dismissive you actually have described the
exact thing that Joshaven was trying to point out, as to what
happens when grounding is not proper !

'Grounding' is not just running some copper wires to be visually
satisfying your statement about  'it is grounded pretty
well...'  followed by .. I have lost equipment there is an
Oxymoron

Grounding when done correctly will protect your equipment from
having the type of damage you are describing and yes there are
some ways to measure and determine if your grounding is proper !


BTW, Audio affects of a Lightning strike,  shaking stuff etc etc
is due to sound waves generated.. (sort of a mini explosion)...
makes for great sound effect, but has nothing to do with
electrical damage to equipment.

:)


Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 <tel:305%20663%205518%20x%20232>

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <tel:%28305%29663-5518> Option 2 or
Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net



*From: *"Glen Waldrop" <gwl...@cngwireless.net
<mailto:gwl...@cngwireless.net>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    *Sent: *Tuesday, December 29, 2015 6:02:24 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

Forgot to mention, this was one hell of a storm.

Lightning from *several* miles away shook my home enough that
the dishes rattled, the TV moved, cabinet doors opened and
closed, etc, for upwards of 45 seconds.

I’m honestly surprised we only lost one tower in that storm. I
was preparing myself for putting up at least a couple of
replacement towers over my Christmas break instead of goofing
with the wife and kids. We got lucky and only lost some
electronics.
*From:* Glen Waldrop <mailto:gwl...@cngwireless.net>
*Sent:* Tuesday, December 29, 2015 4:57 PM
        *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance
It is grounded pretty well, couple of ground rods, tower is
grounded and the copper goes to the top, tallest point for
quite a ways out there. The strike also blew out t

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

we don't file anything unless the loss is greater than about $1500.  i think 
our deductible is $1000.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Glen Waldrop 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 9:22 PM
  Subject: [AFMUG] WISP insurance


  We’ve had another lightning strike, at least the second one this year.

  I’ve got this feeling that our insurance company is probably going to start 
to get a little difficult in the near future.

  Who do you guys recommend?

  I’ve read about a few that cover everything, CPE, tower equipment, towers, 
labor, etc... I imagine those probably cost roughly what we bring in a year, 
but...

  Thanks guys.

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Josh Luthman]

How many times have you actually done that, though?


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 12:12 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller <
par...@cyberbroadband.net> wrote:

>
> we don't file anything unless the loss is greater than about $1500.  i
> think our deductible is $1000.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Glen Waldrop 
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 27, 2015 9:22 PM
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] WISP insurance
>
> We’ve had another lightning strike, at least the second one this year.
>
> I’ve got this feeling that our insurance company is probably going to
> start to get a little difficult in the near future.
>
> Who do you guys recommend?
>
> I’ve read about a few that cover everything, CPE, tower equipment, towers,
> labor, etc... I imagine those probably cost roughly what we bring in a
> year, but...
>
> Thanks guys.
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Craig House]

2 in a year?  We had 7 last night.   

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 27, 2015, at 21:22, Glen Waldrop  wrote:
> 
> We’ve had another lightning strike, at least the second one this year.
> 
> I’ve got this feeling that our insurance company is probably going to start 
> to get a little difficult in the near future.
> 
> Who do you guys recommend?
> 
> I’ve read about a few that cover everything, CPE, tower equipment, towers, 
> labor, etc... I imagine those probably cost roughly what we bring in a year, 
> but...
>  
> Thanks guys.
>  
>  

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Glen Waldrop]

We only file if it is a complete shutdown. $500 deductible, no sense in 
filing anything below complete tower electronics loss.


We've had more than 2 strikes this year, but only two that completely killed 
the towers. We actually had at least 3 hits since the 23rd. Not sure how 
many customers got fried, lost access to a chunk of my network. I'm building 
in redundancy, already had it scheduled for January once we got another 
tower up.




-Original Message- 
From: Jay Weekley

Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 9:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance


We did that once for a lightning strike to one tower and after a tornado
and had to find a new provider each time.  I would limit claims to
catastrophic event only and rely on the compassion of your fellow wisps
if necessary
.
Josh Luthman wrote:


Never made a claim for equipment...

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Dec 27, 2015 10:22 PM, "Glen Waldrop" <gwl...@cngwireless.net 
<mailto:gwl...@cngwireless.net>> wrote:


We’ve had another lightning strike, at least the second one this year.

I’ve got this feeling that our insurance company is probably going
to start to get a little difficult in the near future.

Who do you guys recommend?

I’ve read about a few that cover everything, CPE, tower equipment,
towers, labor, etc... I imagine those probably cost roughly what
we bring in a year, but...
Thanks guys.

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Josh Luthman]

Never made a claim for equipment...

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
On Dec 27, 2015 10:22 PM, "Glen Waldrop"  wrote:

> We’ve had another lightning strike, at least the second one this year.
>
> I’ve got this feeling that our insurance company is probably going to
> start to get a little difficult in the near future.
>
> Who do you guys recommend?
>
> I’ve read about a few that cover everything, CPE, tower equipment, towers,
> labor, etc... I imagine those probably cost roughly what we bring in a
> year, but...
>
> Thanks guys.
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Jay Weekley]

We did that once for a lightning strike to one tower and after a tornado 
and had to find a new provider each time.  I would limit claims to 
catastrophic event only and rely on the compassion of your fellow wisps 
if necessary

.
Josh Luthman wrote:


Never made a claim for equipment...

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Dec 27, 2015 10:22 PM, "Glen Waldrop" > wrote:


We’ve had another lightning strike, at least the second one this year.

I’ve got this feeling that our insurance company is probably going
to start to get a little difficult in the near future.

Who do you guys recommend?

I’ve read about a few that cover everything, CPE, tower equipment,
towers, labor, etc... I imagine those probably cost roughly what
we bring in a year, but...
Thanks guys.

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Glen Waldrop]

Thanks.

Normally I have at least an entire tower’s worth of equipment on hand, but I’ve 
been phasing out my old equipment and upgrading to 802.11n. Keep having to 
replace something, so spare parts are a tad lean at the moment.

Parts on the UPS truck. They’ll probably be here long before the weather will 
allow us to climb for any decent amount of time. Looking at replacing three 
point to point feeds and my main 2GHz/5GHz MT AP, antennas and all.

My primary climber is down with a broken heel due to a slight tower falling, 
(not mine), so we’re training a new climber as well. Have to allocate more time.

On the upside, it was second in line to be upgraded. Now the insurance company 
will help cover at least a portion of that.



From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 10:00 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

Let's us know if you need gear to get back up...

On Dec 27, 2015 8:22 PM, "Glen Waldrop" <gwl...@cngwireless.net> wrote:

  We’ve had another lightning strike, at least the second one this year.

  I’ve got this feeling that our insurance company is probably going to start 
to get a little difficult in the near future.

  Who do you guys recommend?

  I’ve read about a few that cover everything, CPE, tower equipment, towers, 
labor, etc... I imagine those probably cost roughly what we bring in a year, 
but...

  Thanks guys.

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[George Skorup]

I'd have to ask the boss, but I think we're with Hartford. It's a per 
incident deductible. So if a storm comes through and takes out 10 
towers, we pay once. Right now we only have core sites and any others 
with more than $5k worth of gear on it. And yes, generally, it's only 
used if we lose 50-100% (in cost) of the gear at a site. I won't 
publicly say in $ how much gear we have insured, but I believe the 
policy costs us under $3k/yr. When you have say $20k worth of licensed 
gear at a site, a couple $k/yr just makes sense.


On 12/27/2015 10:13 PM, Glen Waldrop wrote:

Thanks.

Normally I have at least an entire tower’s worth of equipment on hand, 
but I’ve been phasing out my old equipment and upgrading to 802.11n. 
Keep having to replace something, so spare parts are a tad lean at the 
moment.
Parts on the UPS truck. They’ll probably be here long before the 
weather will allow us to climb for any decent amount of time. Looking 
at replacing three point to point feeds and my main 2GHz/5GHz MT AP, 
antennas and all.


My primary climber is down with a broken heel due to a slight tower 
falling, (not mine), so we’re training a new climber as well. Have to 
allocate more time.
On the upside, it was second in line to be upgraded. Now the insurance 
company will help cover at least a portion of that.

*From:* Jaime Solorza <mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, December 27, 2015 10:00 PM
*To:* Animal Farm <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

Let's us know if you need gear to get back up...

On Dec 27, 2015 8:22 PM, "Glen Waldrop" <gwl...@cngwireless.net 
<mailto:gwl...@cngwireless.net>> wrote:


We’ve had another lightning strike, at least the second one this year.

I’ve got this feeling that our insurance company is probably going
to start to get a little difficult in the near future.

Who do you guys recommend?

I’ve read about a few that cover everything, CPE, tower equipment,
towers, labor, etc... I imagine those probably cost roughly what
we bring in a year, but...
Thanks guys.

Re: [AFMUG] WISP insurance

[Jaime Solorza]

Let's us know if you need gear to get back up...
On Dec 27, 2015 8:22 PM, "Glen Waldrop"  wrote:

> We’ve had another lightning strike, at least the second one this year.
>
> I’ve got this feeling that our insurance company is probably going to
> start to get a little difficult in the near future.
>
> Who do you guys recommend?
>
> I’ve read about a few that cover everything, CPE, tower equipment, towers,
> labor, etc... I imagine those probably cost roughly what we bring in a
> year, but...
>
> Thanks guys.
>
>
>