Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? going back to mac, if anyone's interested I'm working on some iOS audiogame libraries:For now its just 2 sound managers, one is higher level and one is for more generic players, the soundEngine one would let you use effects and stuff but it's still in experimental phase, then you get text to speech with vo, and some haptics library.This is very early development but everything works, I keep modifying them whenever I work on my games.https://github.com/ogomez92/ag_swift URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563853/#p563853 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @48, WSL2 is in Windows 10 from version 2004 (to say, that it's out of beta).You can easily convert between WSL2 and WSL1 without reinstalling your distributions, q uick google search, should tell you how, but it's essentially just a command, telling the distribution, which version of WSL to use. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563849/#p563849 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? Yeah. You have to install WSL, and I don't think it knows how to translate paths if you call a Windows executable from it, but your drives and stuff are /mnt/c etc and you can install basically anything that doesn't require a daemon. WSL2 lifts the last of the restrictions, daemons and cgroups and stuff all work, but I'm not sure what the current status of it is and need a working WSL environment for work so I haven't experimented. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563774/#p563774 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? Oh, duh, you're right. I keep forgetting that I can just type bash and be at... the same directory I think? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563772/#p563772 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @45But you can drop into Bash at any time. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563735/#p563735 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? Yeah but with Powershell, and with cmd, I can't dofanficfare -u *.epubto update all my fanfics in a folder. Boo! Of course I'm probably just typing it wrong or something. * is supposed to work I've heard, but it doesn't. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563724/#p563724 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @40Powershell is annoying in some ways, but it has loops, string manipulation functions, can do math, etc. Compared to the old command prompt, when it comes to more advanced automation, powershell wins. Microsoft has also hooked a lot of new stuff into it, i.e. the ability to get info on devices and a bunch of stuff like that, and the output of commands being manipulable objects instead of text is nice.I'd rather have bash, but you're not going to get Bash to work with things like the VS compilers 100%, and it's possible to do much worse than powershell, so.Also do note that page up and page down scroll, so if you're trying to page stuff with more or something that can be done without piping things around. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563719/#p563719 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? Yep, you're right. I have no answer to that. I definitely want my programming language and tools to be useful. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563711/#p563711 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
@41Linters are great for finding errors, but I don't think they'll catch say:player = {
'name': 'Chris Norman'
'Rank': 'Awesome'
}
console.log(player.naime) // UndefinedCan't be sure though.MyPy under Python would definitely catch that, if you typed the class properly:class Player:
name: str
rank: str
def __init__(self, name: str, rank: str):
self.name = name
self.rank = rank
p: Player = Player('Chris', 'Awesome')
print(p.naime)Gives me:test.py:10: error: "Player" has no attribute "naime"; maybe "name"?Found 1 error in 1 file (checked 1 source file)
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563590/#p563590
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Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? Well, I mean, people don't download many new apps nowadays, so maybe web apps will make... some sort of comeback. At least I won't have to pay Apple $100 just to get an app out there. And hopefully _javascript_ linters and all will help me find errors and such. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563564/#p563564 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @31OK, I see your point, and I agree with it, sadly. It's a shame, because when they do something right (GMail for example), it's damn good.@33I kind of ignore Powershell, preferring the standard Command Prompt. Am I missing something great? I couldn't even figure out how to chain commands together in Powershell. I know there's no && in Command Prompt, but at least you can let stuff run one after the other with &.@36Good on you for learning _javascript_. Just beware that if you type something wrong, you'll get undefined, rather than any kind of error. It's _javascript_'s main downfall I reckon.Also, good luck getting people to run Web Apps on their mobile devices. I thought it was an amazing idea, but there's reason the phrase "There's an app for that" is ubiquitous.@38From what I've heard about Emacspeak, it's not designed to be intuitive, it's designed to be powerful. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563556/#p563556 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? Yeah, Emacspeak won't be the easiest, especially if you're used to actually helpful editors. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563436/#p563436 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? I just tried Emacspeak on the mac. I don't find it intuitive (and I've been a Linux terminal user for years). I don't think I'll be using it much, but it's nice to have I guess. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563211/#p563211 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @35 The last thing I have learned were trees and doubly-linked lists in C. I was taught GUI, but the stuff didn't make sense. I'll probably pick up on Python, as I won't have any coding classes this semester. But yeah, I''l have to try Free Code Camp. If we're talking about training on the Mac, I really wish that Playgrounds (and to some extent, the entire operating system), that you could disable wrapping down to the next line. It's helpful in most cases, but when looking at a 1D grid, it can become super difficult to track at times. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563184/#p563184 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? Yep. I'm learning to code in JS through Free Code Camp, and it's been really helpful. Like, I now get arrays, functions, and sort of can get push and pop, dealing with arrays, when I don't get them confused. Pushing is pushing something onto the array, the end I think? And popping is pulling something off the array, right? And there's one ... shove? Or... shift? Gosh such jargon! But it's so fun and interactive, and I know, it's not Python, but at least it's not BGT, right? And Free Code Camp does have a Python course later on. Besides that, with JS I can make web apps! Take that, App Store!To tie this into the current discussion, Free Code Camp works amazing on Windows with NVDA, and even JAWS. On Mac, though, at least the public release, I've not tried it on a beta with good enough web support to be worth it, it doesn't work so well, mainly the editor you edit code within. Sure, I could copy and yank it into Emacs, but then I get Emacspeak interupting itself to tell me about some error, or something else that isn't important at the time. With VS Code, I can just press F8, no fiddling with a stupid touch bar required, and I'm at the first error. And dealing with settings is pretty easy and great in VS Code, they're regular controls. Now, VS Code does currently have the problem of settings being more like a scrolling document, where you can tab from one group, like HTML settings, to another, _javascript_ settings, without knowing it, but I just search for what I want and that usually works well. In Emacs with Emacspeak, as far as I've found, there wasn't a "next error" key, or "fix error", or great support for formatting just about any kind of file. On the down side, VS Code shows every paragraph in Markdown as a single line. However, the "reflow" extension fixes that, you can select all and Alt + Q, then when you're done editing, Alt + Shift + F and it's formatted back into something poor old Github won't choke on because every new line is treated as a new paragraph in GFM or something. Bullcrap but whatever. My point is that I've been able to do more in VS Code over the last few weeks than ever with Emacs. There's much less sharpening of pencils and more of getting work done. And my goodness, VS Code even has an extension for Grammarly! And it's accessible because ohh my actually storming goodness, standards are actually important! Who would have ever thunk it! Definitely not Linux/Emacs package developers. VS Code feels like it's actually made to get work done. Emacs just feels like a bunch of loosely-fitting tools taped together. Oh wait, that's all of Linux. What? Is Microsoft making better tools than Linux stuff these days? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563181/#p563181 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @34Being fast at programming comes with practice. Tools will help to some extent, a *lot* later, but less so at the beginning. I don't know how far you are, but in general the slowness at the beginning is learning to see the...let's call it the methodicalness in standard libraries I guess. There's usually a system, or a set of conventions, or something--it's not just rote memorization. Autocomplete is very nice though, and depending what you're doing VSCode will probably also let you jump to errors and stuff like that.I tell people that learning programming is nonlinear. Learning to do 10 line programs takes as long as learning to do 100 line programs takes as long as learning to do 1000 line programs, etc. Everyone I've watched learn to program who's stuck with it for a while has ended up going this way. So after you get over the first big hump, you level up really fast, if you will. Unfortunately getting started is the trick. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563078/#p563078 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @33,Yeah, that was what I was thinking about. It's just nice that it works without a hitch, especially when ssh-ing into a Linux server. I would love to know how to become a faster programmer on Windows. I'm pitifully slow, and it takes way too much time. Using the standard Notepad that comes with Windows, but I hope VSCODE is even faster. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563069/#p563069 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @32If you don't know: windows+x, i for powershell, Windows+x, a for administrator powershell.powershell isn't the best thing in the history of things but it's at least okay, and it works as well as any other terminal.Additionally install WSL from the store and you can type bash from any shell to get bash open to your current directory (yes, it can access windows files).There's a lot of stuff you can do across all of that, it's just kind of not super easy to find docs. And of course if you already know linux you know WSl except it can magically read your Windows files. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563064/#p563064 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? I had to switch to Windows. If I didn't, I would have been in a world of hurt. I prefer it for web browsing and music making, but Windows, unfortunately, doesn't have as many issues, even if it technically doesn't have its own built-in terminal. (well, it does, but it's not called the terminal) VO just wasn't reading out all of the error messages, and it's unfortunate.I had URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563056/#p563056 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @30that's kind of what I'm saying though: they listen some places. But not all the places. And the ones where we get ignored are pretty important. But I mean, Google is behind the IA2 implementation in Chromium, meets is pretty good, sheets is pretty good. So it's not universal. It's just, like, what there needs to be is some declaration from on high that this isn't optional and if users complain someone should do something, but there isn't, so you're at the mercy of whatever team your report lands on, is my guess as to what goes on over there. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/563018/#p563018 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @29I see what you're saying, and I absolutely agree with you on the Google Docs thing.All of that said, I've personally submitted issues against Crhome OS and accessibility, and they've been fixed in a version or 2. The recent changes to how verbose the battery readout is was an issue I raised. Sure others did as well - I'm not saying they only listen to me, but they are listening. Obviously whether or not they do something about it is a different matter. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/562946/#p562946 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @27I'm surprised Emacspeak is painful. I've only ever heard good things about it, in the sense of "if you bother to learn this you'll be amazing". But I guess that shouldn't be surprising, looking at what Raman did with Talkback, though I had always assumed that he did bad with Talkback just because he didn't believe in screen readers.@28yeah, except for the part where Google Docs has terrible ergonomics, Chromevox had terrible ergonomics for years, Talkback still has terrible ergonomics if you happen to get a device with the wrong screen size because they can't freaking scale their gesture recognition and of course the latency issues, etc etc etc.Google cares about accessibility sometimes. When they do and they listen, they can do a good job. But until I stop flinching every time I have to do something complicated with docs, and until an Android can rival iOS for polish, I'm hard pressed to call it caring. While there's something to be said for legacy, Google is the same as Apple, in that they don't care much about what we have to say, and if they do a bad job you're just flat out of luck and they'll fix it 4 or 5 years later, if ever.I wouldn't call it caring, when you're talking about multi-billion dollar companies and longstanding widespread complaints that don't get fixed. This applies to Apple, but it also applies to Google, and somehow we live in a world where Microsoft now seems to actually do pretty good about this. Not perfect, but they're giving us accessible devtools these days, and even if I'm very nervous to use VS itself, they do seem to be fixing even that. That's just such a weird world to live in, to be honest, given that MS had the worst track record out of all of them for 10 years. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/562734/#p562734 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @27At the risk of hijacking this post, Google *do* care about accessibility: Talkback and ChromeVox are both evidence of this. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/562725/#p562725 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? As a newbie dev, I used Emacs with Emacspeak for years, using Markdown, Org-mode, a bit of Python, all that. Then I got into VS Code, really take a hard look at it a few weeks ago, and I've not used my Mac since. Before,, I mainly only used the Mac, switching to Windows for web stuff, Google Docs and all that. Now I only use Windows. VS Code is just, like, thousands of times better. It's like going from a manual brailler to a braille display connected to a computer or iPhone. Things just freaking work! Like, extensions are recommended, I don't have to look for important stuff unless I want more functionality, I don't have Emacspeak interupting itself to tell me about a warning I don't care about at the moment, no weird "insert-string-rectangle" command to make lines of text Markdown lists, just select the list and toggle unordered list, and boom! It's freaking done!I mean, I've even tried XCode. But with Playgrounds only *now* becoming accessible for learning to code with the Everyone can Code thing, and having to interact like four times to get into the editor, it's just really bad, and I really love, in VS code, not having to "sharpen my pencils" all the time just to prepare to work. Also, added on to the coding stuff, Windows' web support just blows the Mac out of the water. I use Free Code Camp, and the editor is really hard to use on a Mac. I don't know how it'll be when Big Sur comes out, hopefully they've learned a tad, and I *can* say that latency is no longer an issue in Big Sur, at least in the Beta. But they've not fixed the Terminal, as of the time of this writing. They have not fixed VoiceOver so that it has a queue, like every other screen reader. So even if XCode somehow becomes much easier to use, even if the latency issue is fixed, the Mac will still be a more-locked-down computer with a screen reader that can't even work right with the Mac's own Terminal app. I mean, no third-party stuff, just Apple. And, after all, Apple controls all this, right? It should be a beautiful walled garden, right? Well it's not. And if the Apple accessibility spokespeople, on the AppleVis podcast and elsewhere, want the mac to be a great coding platform for blind people, they'll have to work a heck of a lot harder than they have been in years past. Because they've lost me. I plan to build for the web, and not iOS and Swift and such. Why? Because Free Code Camp works for me, it's not about trying to learn a game world for kids and spending 10 minutes just feeling around the stupid world tiles, trying to connect the dots, and using a poorly accessible editor because the Swift Playgrounds app is just another Catalyst iPad app, and they all have very poor accessibility. So, even copying and pasting code into Text Edit and working there, and copying and pasting back works better than that garbage. Also, Free Code Camp treats you like you know what you're doing, like you're an intelligent human being, whereas Apple tends to treat you like they know best, like you're a poor, helpless customer that needs their hand held and protected from the big bad emulator developers and awful hobbyist who could put some random sideloaded app on your iPhone and steal, yes steal! your bank info. I like being treated with respect, thank you. I love being treated like I can handle the administration and usage of my devices. And that's what Microsoft gives me, with Windows. Rather than allow tech-illiterate people to remain so, Apple could choose to educate them, or at least try to. But no, Apple knows best. Mommy knows best.if only Google cared about accessibility. I love VoiceOver on iOS, and the screen recognition will be a huge game changer, and Google will *have* to cramble to catch up, or be forever left behind. Oh wait they already are left behind, never mind. But, it looks like we'll have the discordant package of iPhones for mobile, and Windows for PC's, for a long while still. Until Windows 10 X, hopefully. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561659/#p561659 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @26But you can use the same code? I mean obviously there's Flutter, and others have mentioned other frameworks as well.@CamlornSo glad to read your stuff about macs and their undeserved price tag. I have felt like that for ages, but every time I mention it, people thinking I'm telling them to switch to Android. I'm not, I just want somebody somewhere to admit that Apple aren't worth the big money anymore. Not since Snow Leopard in my opinion.@Kyleman123Sorry, but I'm not sure who you're trying to convince with that extremely verbose load of font attributes with the indentation (the important bit) right at the end. I can't imagine having to hear all that rubbish to know where my indent is. Is it not possible to configure that? Or did Apple think they knew best and limited your options on that one as well? @24Here here. Isn't free choice a beautiful thing? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561355/#p561355 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @Kyleman that's very cool about your indentation report script. I tried to do this at one point but I couldn't get the location of the insertion point.Yeah, I do get what you guys are saying. I currently work as a process automation intern, and most of my work is done in Python. I would never use my Mac to code stuff for work because, like you said, it's slower. Much slower. besides, I have to inspect hundreds of html elements every month and that is just not as nice to do on the Mac, the element tree in the chrome dev tools is much nicer on windows. So if you're a blind programmer you should probably know both platforms. I'm sorry for snapping at you earlier @Camlorn, but there is no one true OS that does everything right. Then again, if I could use VSCode on Windows to code for iOS with the same APIs I probably would. *shrug* URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561310/#p561310 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? Sorry folks, I didn't mean to open any cans of worms with this post.As a Linux and Android user, I'm far from the correct person to tell anyone what they should use on their own devices. I didn't really want this thread to go there--I just found the experience of coding on MacOS pretty painful, then doubly so when my own development-only computer started locking me out for my own protection. If you work around these limitations, get stuff done, and are happy, well, my own OS only recently gained access to anything and everything built with the Chromium engine, including Electron apps. I worked around those limitations quite well, my coworkers liked me and my work well enough, and I just valued things other than maximum speed and peek productivity.Anyway, I'm glad it works for some of you, and keep doing what you're doing. That said, pisses me off how diligently my own hardware locks me out. And, as an update, Onslaught now seems to run fine on MacOS, though the editor crashes due to an assertion failure, and outside of my own code. So it's been partially productive. And theoretically the TTS code should now work on iOS as well. At least, AVFoundation claims both MacOS and iOS support, and that backend worked well when I put it through its paces. Historically, once the TTS works on a platform, everything else does as well. So hopefully, the only barrier between Onslaught and iOS if the fact that I haven't figured out how to physically build and provision the app yet. Given that about a week of solid work got me up and running on MacOS with a couple new ports to show for it, maybe another solid week or so to figure out iOS deployment. That week likely won't be *next* week since this has been enough of a distraction from the initial beta release, but I'm excited to be able to launch on two new platforms. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561305/#p561305 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? In the real world, you only get to run things through a formatter if there's a formatter that matches the style of the rest of the team. At my job for example, our main codebase isn't compatible with clang-format so I do it by hand. "I'll just use a formatter" is the new programmer's answer to "I'm blind and I have to do formatting". Sometimes you can, but I promise that one day you won't be able to and someone will require it to be right for your code reviews.Be careful using having a CS degree and how you did compared to other students as a benchmark. It's not actually indicative of the real world. CS degrees are a complicated topic, but in so far as it tells me anything it just says that you want to program bad enough to have gotten one, and that's all it'll say to most jobs as well. It's a sad but true fact that that's been watered down a lot, to the point where people get through them who are by no means ready to actually become programmers, and when you line yourself up to other students in them, often you're comparing yourself to people who shouldn't have gotten as far as they did (notably, in mine, I could have passed without writing so much as 1000 lines of code). This doesn't say anything about you either way, just, going and saying "But I have a CS degree", unless it's from MIT or something, won't matter to anyone except the HR departments that screen resumes.If I'm skimming a 500 line file looking for something, an additional 50ms per line is 25 seconds. I skim 500 line files all the time. It takes maybe 1-2 minutes; 25 seconds additional is significant.On Windows, I can get indentation level changes without verbosity. I just always know this piece of information.Everything you do as a blind person on the computer is O(n). Your sighted colleagues get it in O(1). Wherever you are with a Mac, you could be further with anything-but-a-Mac. Those little inefficiencies add up to seconds and minutes really fast, and you won't realize it until you eventually put in the time to learn something else.VSCode gives me everything you're mentioning for XCode. Even Eclipse has equivalents, and if we're lining up Voiceover and XCode vs. Eclipse and the bugs Eclipse has, Eclipse also wins.I get it. You know Mac. Leaving is hard. It looks like surely those of us on the other side of this argument don't know what we're talking about. But the thing we've done in general and with Mac specifically is we've given up the ability to go far in order to make the thing easy to learn. Unfortunately, now that that's been done, sighted people don't even really get that this trade-off exists. Mac is easy to learn, but the upper end of the potential is limited. it's like wearing weights all the time or something, except without the part where you develop muscles. You can climb the stairs but you'll be out of breath at the top.I'm not sure why I'm bothering though, except that it would be nice if we told people the caveats when we go saying "yeah, mac works". Because the thing is, eventually you'll both find out that I'm right on your own and time will win this argument for me, or Apple will suddenly decide to listen. But in either case the argument is moot. It would just be nice to avoid giving people the impression they should go down this eventual dead end. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561228/#p561228 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? To add a bit more sanity back into this discussion, Xcode has gotten much better as far as accessibility is concerned. I began using the Mac back in 2016 and successfully completed a computer science degree with it. I didn't have to have extensions on assignments because I couldn't keep up with my sighted classmates. if anything I was usually the first one done.TextMate can do everything that VSCode can do. I'm not saying that because VSCode isn't accessible, far from it. in my admittedly limited tests, it gets the job done. but just giving people options.In Xcode 12 beta you can now get the level of indention by pressing VoiceOver + t (control + option + t). While this is a bit verbose because it also mentions every text attribute that VoiceOver can see, it does work. here is n example from a project of mine, "SFMono: White on a shade of gray12: indent level 6: 24 spaces: 0 tabs: line 31." There are also rotor actions for jumping around in code by methods, errors, warnings, breakpoints, and marks.I also use an AppleScript attached to a keyboard commander shortcut of option + ` to get the level of indention of a line. This works in any IDE. It does get a bit confused if you run it multiple times, but I don't usually need that.honestly though, I don't worry about indention a whole lot of the time because the IDE takes care of it. Plus if you screw things up, its really not the end of the world. Most projects should be run through a code formatter/linter anyway. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561175/#p561175 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @ogomez92I'm not sure why I'd put out $1500 to $2000 to maintain the ability to keep evaluating a broken platform, when the one friend of mine who was using it left a few months back because they permanently broke the audio drivers for mac Pro. Until then I had a window into the ecosystem. Also, Nolan has literally written a screen reader and is having trouble with the platform.You may not care about becoming as efficient as a sighted programmer. Use what makes you happy. But please, please, please don't leave people with the impression that they're going to be able to get a mac and become as efficient as a sighted programmer. If you want to do more than programming as a hobby, that's a really important thing to be able to do, and Voiceover just gets in the way. At worst you won't get the job, at best you won't make as much as you could make doing it. If you want to argue for the platform, at least list the important caveats.If I'm superhuman with my screen reader settings, then so are at least 10 other people on these forums, and at least 4 or 5 others I know outside audiogames.net, and the things I'm saying are actually pretty universally recognized among programmers as a whole in my experience. I'm not being arrogant, I'm being objective, because when it comes to Voiceovere it's actually so bad that that is a thing you can do to it.GUI doesn't matter. For large projects it's a very small subset of the project itself and the inefficiencies will more than make up for any efficiencies from an accessible UI designer. Also React/React Native, XAML, and I believe Dart all have good solutions to this problem that we can use, though XAML does come with the buying into Microsoft tooling problem. I'm absolutely sure there are others. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561152/#p561152 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @13 Yeah, dealt with that on Microsoft and Android so far, and am looking forward to Apple the least. You've done iOS apps, right? Any accessibility gotchas with that process I should be aware of?@16 You might want to consider MacStadium. I have no idea how accessible it is. Before I was gifted this hardware, my plan was to eventually drop the $80 for a month and see how accessible it was. Maybe it lets you RDP in? It'd be painful, but if my games did well on other platforms, then it might have been worth the effort of trying for iOS too. And once you've confirmed that things work, you can use GitHub Actions and Fastlane to automate away the regular need for direct access to virtualized Apple hardware, though you'd still likely need the occasional test/debug session. Man I'm glad I don't have to do that. Even *more* glad this was bought with someone else's money. I'd be having major buyer's remorse if I'd done this myself. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561132/#p561132 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? LEt me rephrase. I would never use my mac for longer coding projects in something like Python or Node., windows is so much better at these tasks and especially if using VSCode. BBut if I'm coding in Swift, of course i'll use my Mac. xCode has great developer tools for Swift and it is mostly accessible, SwiftUI is a blessing, and I'm not just saying that because Apple says it. I say that because I have actually used SwiftUI in 3 different games I'm working on and it's much better than the old way of writing interface via code with crappy layout tools and inaccessible interface builder. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561129/#p561129 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? LEt me rephrase. I would never use my mac for longer coding projects in something like Python or Node., windows is so much better at these tasks and especially if using VSCode. BBut if I'm coding in Swift, of course i'll use my Mac. xCode has great developer tools for Swift and it is mostly accessible, SwiftUI is a blessing, and I'm not just saying that because Apple says it. I say that because I have actually used SwiftUI in 3 different games I'm working on and it's much better than the old way of interface via code with crappy layout tools and inaccessible interface builder. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561129/#p561129 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? LEt me rephrase. I would never use my mac for longer coding projects in something like Python or Node. taht's what bootcamp is for. BBut if I'm coding in Swift, of course i'll use my Mac. xCode has great developer tools for Swift and it is mostly accessible, SwiftUI is a blessing, and I'm not just saying that because Apple says it. I say that because I have actually used SwiftUI in 3 different games I'm working on and it's much better than the old way of interface via code with crappy layout tools and inaccessible interface builder. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561129/#p561129 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @Camlorn your condescending attitude makes me cringe. I'm sure I'm not the first to say so.Yes, the Mac has some bad things, yes, there is an added speech delay. No, I don't use my NVDA or voiceover at 100% speed. I'm not a superhuman like you.Btw, xCode has become a lot better in its recent iterations. Have you tried out the new versionor are you just spouting stuff from random bad experiences you've had in the past? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561096/#p561096 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @Camlorn your condescending attitude makes me cringe. I'm sure I'm not the first to say so.Yes, the Mac has some bad things, yes, there is an added speech delay. No, I don't use my NVDA or voiceover at 100% speed. I'm not a superhuman like you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561096/#p561096 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @Camlorn your condescending attitude makes me cringe. I hope no one takes you seriously. Ever.Yes, the Mac has some bad things, yes, there is an added speech delay. No, I don't use my NVDA or voiceover at 100% speed. I'm not a superhuman like you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561096/#p561096 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @Camlorn your condescending attitude makes me cringe. I hope no one takes you seriously. Ever. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561096/#p561096 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
@EthinUnless something changed, you can still turn off code signing on Mac. If nothing else, developers need it, so the switch has to be present.@chrisnorman7Yes, it will be a pain. You'll be able to do it, being as you presumably already have an app. This is a accessible but not usable case, and at least with accessible but not usable you can still technically use it. You will find out just how fun the iOS and Mac appstore review process is, however.@ogomez92Every time I hear this I feel sorry for the person saying it, because it means you've not hit your maximum potential on any platform. I am as fast as an average sighted programmer. It took me years to do, and is a major achievement for someone who's blind. It is not possible to become as fast as an average sighted programmer on mac.In any other context but Mac accessibility, "Everything has bugs, but they're not that bad" isn't an argument we'd allow or something we'd live with. But for Mac, you pay a lot more for a lot less, and every time this comes up someone will defend that choice with "Everything works, it's just buggy, but you can live with it" Also, try Xcode sometime, that's where you get to see every single flaw in Voiceover all at once.But let's consider some math. When skimming large source files you need the first syllable of the line. At 600 words a minute, that's 10 words a second. If we say that every word has 2 syllables, that's 20 syllables a second, which is about 50MS per syllable. Mac adds at least 50 MS to speech latency over all the other platforms, ironically including iOS. That's a 2x slowdown right there. Mind you, 600 words a minute with the mac synths is really hard to achieve anyway, and I'm at 800 as are many other programmers. Nothing like a drunk speech synthesizer. This is before things like the terminal weirdness, the XCode problems, the browser weirdness, the incredibly lame punctuation support ("less" is much shorter than "less than", "tick" much shorter than "apostrophe"). If indentation also sucks that hurts your ability to work with sighted colleagues. And unless they fixed it, the speech situation is so bad that key echo skips keys because it can't keep up.I can go get a Windows laptop for half the price and have double the efficiency on literally absolutely everything I do as a programmer. Objectively, not subjectively. Same for Linux. By all means use Mac if it works for you, but please don't be another one of the people who defends it as fine when it's really, really not. I can honestly say with a straight face that trying to program on a Mac will strongly affect your job performance. There's a huge difference between "if you learn it better then..." sorts of bugs, and just fundamentally broken screen reader problems, and somehow people are willing to pay double for a laptop with a screen reader full of broken. I get it if you're doing music or something, but...otherwise, no, I really don't get it.
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/561070/#p561070
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Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? So I've got an app I've published to the Play Store. I really need it to go on the App Store too... From my reading, there's a fair few extra steps involved, all of which need to be done from a mac with XCode. Am I right in thinking this is going to be a pain in the arse? Am I better off finding someone I can pay to publish it for me? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560997/#p560997 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? Guys, I use Mac almost every day and I don't have all the hassles you mention. I mean I code on it too, it's true that indentation isn't as great as windows, but textmate is usable, vsCode is not perfect but it's usable, etc. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560954/#p560954 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? I get the code signing and notarizing stuff under particular circumstances (e.g.: system drivers). Enforce code signing and notarization on drivers and other kernel module functionality and low-level system resources all you like because those do actually have the potential to be extremely dangerous if mishandled. But it should be up to the user ultimately what they want when it comes to the security of their device and the operating system in regards to actual applications that they install. Yes, the maxim of "users are stupid" does come to mind, but that doesn't mean you should force that kind of thing onto everyone. Some people have a legitimate reason for disabling notarization or code signing requirements. Corporations may have such a policy as well because they may need to sideload applications onto the devices they have and they may not wish to outsource that process to Apple for security reasons (which would be a very understandable thing to do). Apple is literally constructing a SPOF and they don't even care, they haven't noticed, or both. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560909/#p560909 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? I get the code signing and notarizing stuff under particular circumstances. But it should be up to the user ultimately what they want when it comes to the security of their device and the operating system. Yes, the maxim of "users are stupid" does come to mind, but that doesn't mean you should force that kind of thing onto everyone. Some people have a legitimate reason for disabling notarization or code signing requirements. Corporations may have such a policy as well because they may need to sideload applications onto the devices they have and they may not wish to outsource that process to Apple for security reasons (which would be a very understandable thing to do). Apple is literally constructing a SPOF and they don't even care. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560909/#p560909 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? And you haven't even gotten to code signing and notarizing yet lol. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560904/#p560904 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @11, sent you a PM. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560865/#p560865 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @10I mean, I bought my mac. With my money. Specifically to program. Specifically because it was supposed to be great. So no, you're not alone. My brother also got a mac because he rarely used the computer and wanted something easy, since learning NVDA is a giant headache. He also left Mac because of VO bugs. To be clear, he's in no way a programmer. I recommended it to him because he barely needed a PC and it is easy to learn if nothing else, but the day he asked me to set up bootcamp was a real eye-opener, no pun intended.that was 2013 or 2014, back when desktop mac still had a good reputation. I'd not make the same mistake now. Now, it's widely known just how terrible it is. It's a shame. I'm told the previous iterations of VO from around 2010 were actually pretty amazing.Somehow I had this after they sucked but just before the reputation nosedived luck both with Macs and with Alienware, and somehow I suspect I'd continue to do so except that after both of those I transitioned to a custom tower and haven't looked back. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560858/#p560858 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? I'm going to keep my reply short. I tried, years ago, and found that within months I'd bootcamped my iMac, and... well I'm still talking to you on it now, from Windows. I can't even remember the last time I booted into OSX, and the lack of good dev support was a large chunk of it. And just VO in general if I'm honest. For years I just thought I sucked either as a dev or with screen readers, but reading this topic has shown me that it's not my fault. Thanks for posting this, it's been cathartic to read people's responses. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560856/#p560856 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? Every bit of goodwill for this platform that I've ever had has evaporated. Fuckers locked down debugging such that even launching lldb and running or attaching to something pops up a GUI prompt asking you to enable debugging. If you're remote over SSH, using VSCode remote development for instance, it just silently fails. SSHing in and running lldb manually just returns an exit(1) whenever you run your app. Apple gaslit me into thinking I'd forgotten how to use lldb until I manually installed gdb, and the homebrew package at least had the decency to fail in ways that led me to discover that the OS locked down debugging. So even SSH-based development is locked down on MacOS. You're either able-bodied enough to use Xcode, or you're just a user.God this upsets me. iOS is certainly a more accessible platform, I'll give it that. But I wouldn't be the developer I am today if it wasn't for Android giving me the freedom to build Spiel, my own GPS app, and a bunch of other little experiments. I hate hate hate that the more accessible mobile platform is locked down such that blind software developers will have an uphill battle trying to write apps for it. Running my own software on my own portable device was one of the most magical experiences I've ever had as a developer.I'm going to stop ranting and smoke a bowl before I go too much further down this path. But figured I'd share the latest chapter in the shitshow. VSCode remote development works well right up until you need to actually debug something. So there but for the grace of god go you, and stay away from MacOS development if you have that luxury. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560580/#p560580 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @7, fair enough. And yeah, I definitely like how I can write an app in any language for Windows or Linux without the vendor demanding "Use X". Because, of course, then they build the ABI around that language, or the way that language works, and so then if you want to work something in C or Go or Rust you have to construct this message over here and go add its parameters over there and then go dispatch it over here and then finally do this other stuff to get messages back. Which of course results in massively over-complicated and difficult to understand code. And yeah, Ican't find anything about that either -- calling objective-C from C at any rate. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560312/#p560312 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @5Objective-c is what it is because it's older than mac. They didn't keep using it because they wanted to be different. They kept using it because they ended up in a position where Objective-C facilities are all but baked into the OS kernel. You can't find C docs because Objective-C is the OS X and iOS ABI.It is actually possible to talk to it via C, but I don't remember how and I don't know that I can find the docs again--Apple's dev documentation is inaccessible on Windows because they got Aria wrong and ended up having a hidden table of contents that you can only see with the debugger, which was the last straw in me ever caring about the platform. But how it works is you have to actually build Objective-C messages in C, and dispatch them through the Objective-C runtime.I'm reasonably sure Swift exists in part because the only way for Apple to have a programming language that doesn't have a bunch of weird edge cases all through it is for them to make it compatible at some level with the Objective-C ABI. You can say what you want about Windows and Linux, but at least they don't shove a language down your throat. I'm pretty sure Apple saw Objective-C as a mistake for much longer than they admit. If you're big enough, tech debt is the mythical immovable object and you have no choice but to claim it was your plan all along. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560294/#p560294 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? @2/@4 Thanks for confirming my suspicions. Maybe I could learn it given time, but I'm kind of at capacity for knowledge I have to keep in my head, and I already need to learn enough Cocoa plus how to call that from Rust that I don't have the bandwidth to add another screen reader on top of that. Ah well, fortunately it took all of 10 minutes to set up the remote VSCode integration, so that'll be my path forward. I'll give Apple credit for making it stupid simple to set up an SSH server without touching the command line, and for making the platform somewhat developer-friendly even if VO itself is a bit of a shitshow.@3 Respect to you for your choice of Emacs, but it just isn't for me. I actually used Emacspeak for a long time, but there's too much of a disconnect between that and, well, just about everything else I need.@5 Agreed with your Apple assessment. If someone hadn't literally bought me $1700 worth of Apple hardware, I'd just not care until some other Apple user came along and wanted my plugins on iOS. And if the code I need to maintain myself for cross-platform accessibility ends up being more than a few hundred lines, I may just put the project on hold for a few months and read up on Apple's mass of frameworks. But Apple's platforms were the last two I couldn't support, save for Playstation which I'm not going after anyway for what are likely obvious reasons, so I owe it to my donor to give it a good fighting shot. And to Apple's credit, I think their use of ObjC is more due to MacOS' NeXTSTEP roots as opposed to something they chose to be difficult.Anyhow, thanks folks. I was already pursuing the remote SSH option, but you've convinced me to stop trying to whip VSCode into shape under VoiceOver for now. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560293/#p560293 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? Agree with 4. I used to have a MacBook Pro, late 2013. Used MacOS on it for some time and switched back and fourth between Windows and MacOS (I even tried Linux on it). Linux was unstable as hell (primarily the wi-fi driver -- it kept randomly disconnecting me for no reason, and that was the only driver available for it), and MacOS was. just a PITA to work with. And Objective-C is utterly horrendous. Not as bad as LISP but still, its ridiculously over-complicated and confusing, and I suspect the only reason Apple even made it was to be "unique" and to not be forced to use C/C++ everywhere like everyone else was doing. To my knowledge, Objective-C does not offer anything that C++ doesn't, and only ridiculously complicates what C++ might've done. Swift is an improvement, sure, but I always get stuck when I want to write a cross-platform bit of code, want to write the Mac bits and go, "Uh... should I use C++ here or Objective-C?" And, of course, to make things worse, Apple has no C documentation for using their APIs, at least none that I could find. So don't bother working with Mac -- its a waste of money and time and as Liam said, its shameful that Apple forces you to spend $1000.00 plus just to make iOS apps if you happen to not have a Mac at the time. Really a good way to turn people off from making apps for your platform unless those people are die-hard fans or have the money to throw around. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560280/#p560280 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? I tried over the course of about 6 months in 2013 or 2014. Used a macbook every day, because I figured maybe it was me and I'd give it a serious chance and make sure that it wasn't just me not knowing VO. I didn't succeed, as in even taking notes in class sucked by comparison to Windows. Maybe you'll do better or maybe things have changed, but since my one die-hard mac friend finally got fed up and abandoned it for Windows not too long ago, my guess is it's only gotten worse. There is a reason TDSR exists.Save yourself the time and use the SSH server, if you can. Given that it's Godot which is already cross platform, you will probably be able to do almost everything without touching the mac. There are undocumented ways to deploy to iOS as well, but they're undocumented and I don't have links handy; you can probably even get as far as a command line debugger, if you try hard enough. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560275/#p560275 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? Most of my coding on Mac OS is done with Emacspeak, which has a variety of ways to handle indentation. I highlly recommend it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560272/#p560272 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful?
Re: Any way to make coding on MacOS non-painful? honestly and this is just me, but I'd focus on getting SSH working and trying to do everything from a familiar editor. Best of luck. I refuse to do any coding on Mac OS.Though I'm one of the people who feels like there's no future in Mac. It's too bad it's required for IOs development. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/560270/#p560270 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
