[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
I know I'm pretty late to this party, but I did read through the thread. I will offer the following as a customer of both Bel Canto and Slim Devices. 1. I have a Bel Canto S300 amp that I bought online earlier this summer. I love it - it is a great buy and a keeper. However, I did not try to return it after evaluation. 2. That said, I consider their large print "No Risk Purchase Plan" wording on their web site to be misleading. Sure, one ought to read the fine print in any deal, but it shouldn't directly contradict the large print. This one does. I do not think it is an intentional effort to mislead, but it should certainly be corrected. As someone else pointed out, "no risk" is a sales situation only refers to financial risk. To evaluate and return their product involves a permanent loss of part of the purchase price. When a headline shouts "no risk" the fine print should back up that statement. Bel Canto should recognize that, fix either the headline or their policy, and move on. I've been an SB3 user for some time (and a SliMP3 prior) and am currently evaluating a Transporter (it just arrived yesterday.) Right now I have no clue if it is a keeper - it is a clear improvement over the SB3 but it's going to be a tough decision since I don't know if I'm hearing $1,700 worth of "better" yet. Who knows, maybe I'll get to test Slim Device's return policy. -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
Just a reflection before I hit the bunk: Nova Physics = New Physics... I.e: Not the normal laws of nature as we know them.. ;-) -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
I've kinda moved to relying on AccurateRip as much as EAC. Yes I use EAC in secure mode, but I get much happier when I see that several people have the same result - what are the chances of that happening if there is even a single error? And I get almost no errors on my cheapo LG DVD drive, so expensive tech is pointless. So the reading accuracy is tosh, the HD jitter is too - when it's streamed to the SB3, that then keeps it in flash memory, albeit buffered. Heck the MP does that - main storage is HD. For that kind of money I'd want a terabyte of flash memory! But there is a lot more to digital replay than this: DAC and analogue section obviously, but also the transmission from the 'perfect' transport to the DAC. None of these is trivial, and it looks like the MP is rather good here. However, its stated USP, to me, is not unique - it's hardly better than a SB3. Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: dvd-audio/sacd players with digital input?
I'm talking either optical or coax digital input so I can connect my SB2... On 1/12/07, Skunk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Are we talking about a s-pdif input here or not? ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Rotel Home Theatre Receiver Connection?
kolding;169878 Wrote: > I used the coax, if for no other reason than the Rotel only has 2 > optical ins, and 3 coax, and my Xbox and Panasonic DVD player both are > optical only. > > Some people say the coax has less jitter. I couldn't hear a > difference. > > Eric Good point! I'm already using one Toslink for a TiVo -- Jazz1 Jazz1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6623 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31602 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
lafayette wrote: > Couldn't resist. You are a bunch of hypocritical, probably lonely and > single, and definitely sad little shits. This is called reciprocity. > I hope you enjoy an evening of elevated blood pressure. Heh, you really think we take any of this stuff half as seriously as you do? Man, you've got a lot to learn. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
totoro;169877 Wrote: > He must have internet 2. Lucky bastard :) Wireless, even... and you can order absolutely anything online for delivery in NYC. OK, sometimes you need that thing called a "phone" - but that goes out over the same cable as our internet, and anyway how could you possibly find a phone number without the web? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
.. -- totoro squeezebox 3 -> mccormack dna .5 -> audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
lafayette;169879 Wrote: > Couldn't resist. You are a bunch of hypocritical, probably lonely and > single, and definitely sad little shits. This is called reciprocity. > I hope you enjoy an evening of elevated blood pressure. Has Bel canto called you yet to ask if you would PLEASE stop defending them? -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Rotel Home Theatre Receiver Connection?
Jazz1;169859 Wrote: > Am I better of using Toslink Optical or coax digital cable from my Rotel > RSX-1067 to an SB3? I'm going to need a 12 to 14 foot run. Let's assume > the same budget for the cable either way I go. > I used the coax, if for no other reason than the Rotel only has 2 optical ins, and 3 coax, and my Xbox and Panasonic DVD player both are optical only. Some people say the coax has less jitter. I couldn't hear a difference. Eric -- kolding kolding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=31 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31602 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
Couldn't resist. You are a bunch of hypocritical, probably lonely and single, and definitely sad little shits. This is called reciprocity. I hope you enjoy an evening of elevated blood pressure. totoro;169874 Wrote: > OK, OK :-) -- lafayette Sweet Home Alabama lafayette's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9022 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
adamslim;169872 Wrote: > You feed yourself via the internet? Man you must have some serious > bandwidth... :) He must have internet 2. Lucky bastard :) -- totoro squeezebox 3 -> mccormack dna .5 -> audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
cdparanoia on Linux behaves much like EAC on windows. I had a CD with a large circumfrential scratch about halfway around the CD in the middle of a track (put there by a dodgy portable player with a battery cover inside the CD case, under the disc), basically rendering it unplayable on any CD player I tried it in, and unrippable by WMP. cdparanoia just slowed down, and kept trying. I think it was hours, maybe overnight. It got the track out and I certainly couldn't detect any audible defects at all on the track--I expected some noise or distortion. I have no doubt the Nova machine is good, and they obviously care a lot. It's hard to believe some of their more snake-oil sounding claims. -- mrfantasy --Mike mrfantasy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1127 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
adamslim;169851 Wrote: > S. Take the opportunity. Shhh > > Adam OK, OK :-) -- totoro squeezebox 3 -> mccormack dna .5 -> audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
opaqueice;169863 Wrote: > Hmm, looks like *I* didn't read *your* post very carefully - sorry, my > bad! > > Sometimes I think the internet is one massive miscommunication device. > Then I realize I can't even remember how I fed myself before the web > existed, and I change my mind... No problem. -- totoro squeezebox 3 -> mccormack dna .5 -> audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
P Floding;169832 Wrote: > This is where it gets tricky! > It is unreasonable to demand that manufacturers can prove > (substantiate) subjective claims. Just like no-one can really say why a > Porsche is better than an MX-5 (if we pretend they have the same 0-60 > times and top speed for the sake of the argument). > > I much prefer subjective marketing BS to fantasy technical explanations > with no connection to reality. > > There is a huge industry of people telling others what, mostly > subjectively, is "the best"! > > When it comes to hi-fi my pet theory (a "truth" for me) is that > measured performance is so unreliable because measurement is seldom > done in a real context. If you can actually extract the "on paper > performance" from a component you should get good sound, but I believe > many components fail to deliver when put in real systems. Yeah agreed. When someone says "this sounds really great, much better than everything else", I think "yeah right, to your ears maybe. I'll listen to it and decide for myself thanks". But when they say "it has 0.1% THD, 1.32ps jitter, S/N of 723dB", I think "huh? That has no meaning in my context. I will be listening to music on it, not measuring it." I recognise that some equipment (especially digital) can have some things measured where there is clearly a better/worse scale, and that there is an obligation on manufacturers to ensure that there are no really poor design flaws in a product. I only buy from manufacturers (and dealers) that I trust not to fob off poor product. But the bottom line, for me, is that fluffy pseudoscience marketing should stick to shampoo and avoid audio. Honest marketing, like no-risk trials, that's what we like :) (And I do like how this thread has got totally off-topic. OP: this is how human interaction works. It's like having a conversation. You can always gently steer it back, but a bit of randomness never hurt anyone :) ) Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
totoro;169831 Wrote: > Um, I was making a joke, man. > Note the use of the :) > The guy who made the post understood the joke, I'm a little surprised > you didn't. > .. Hmm, looks like *I* didn't read *your* post very carefully - sorry, my bad! Sometimes I think the internet is one massive miscommunication device. Then I realize I can't even remember how I fed myself before the web existed, and I change my mind... -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Rotel Home Theatre Receiver Connection?
Am I better of using Toslink Optical or coax digital cable from my Rotel RSX-1067 to an SB3? I'm going to need a 12 to 14 foot run. Let's assume the same budget for the cable either way I go. Thanks for your help. I was thinking about adding a Rotel CD player as my music source, but my first SB has convince me I ought to get another one. -- Jazz1 Jazz1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6623 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31602 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
lafayette wrote: > Whatever. This sure does have a lot to do with audio. I think I made > this point about this forum: there is a lot of criticism, most or all > of it personal and, well, pointless. ...and recently, mostly started by you. > I have better things to do with my time than to follow this. Please close the door on the way out. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
lafayette;169844 Wrote: > Whatever. This sure does have a lot to do with audio. I think I made > this point about this forum: there is a lot of criticism, most or all > of it personal and, well, pointless. > > I have better things to do with my time than to follow this. S. Take the opportunity. Shhh Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: dvd-audio/sacd players with digital input?
Skunk;169848 Wrote: > I think the confusion stemmed from the missing quote in my reply, which > was to the OP as to why consumer cd players don't have digital inputs. > > > Everyone knows computer audio is perfect. I see! Yes, "perfect forever"! ;-D -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31567 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: dvd-audio/sacd players with digital input?
I think the confusion stemmed from the missing quote in my reply, which was to the OP as to why consumer cd players don't have digital inputs. Everyone knows computer audio is perfect. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31567 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
lafayette;169844 Wrote: > Whatever. This sure does have a lot to do with audio. I think I made > this point about this forum: there is a lot of criticism, most or all > of it personal and, well, pointless. > > I have better things to do with my time than to follow this. See ya. Thanks for helping to get my message out. -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
lafayette;169844 Wrote: > Whatever. This sure does have a lot to do with audio. I think I made > this point about this forum: there is a lot of criticism, most or all > of it personal and, well, pointless. > > I have better things to do with my time than to follow this. Hmm.. whining again ah well, not surprising. Pretty funny coming from someone who made a pretty personal attack on the OP, though. -- totoro squeezebox 3 -> mccormack dna .5 -> audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
Whatever. This sure does have a lot to do with audio. I think I made this point about this forum: there is a lot of criticism, most or all of it personal and, well, pointless. I have better things to do with my time than to follow this. totoro;169820 Wrote: > Sure you do. You've done it plenty of times when others have criticized > you on this forum. > > Hoist by your own petard there, I'd say. -- lafayette Sweet Home Alabama lafayette's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9022 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: dvd-audio/sacd players with digital input?
Skunk;169837 Wrote: > Are we talking about a s-pdif input here or not? If data is retreived from a computer network, and fed to a DAC, on the DAC's terms (its clock), there will be no SPDIF involved. This is the situation we (I) want to be in to avoid the very flawed SPDIF interface. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31567 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
totoro;169830 Wrote: > Yep, I agree with you. > > I think our earlier spat had more to do with us both being very > irritable at the time. You bet! It's all forgotten now anyway. When it comes to placebo it is very, very real! But experience and hundreds of hours of evaluating and also enjoying hifi does make you better at hearing things. When it comes to music I think it touches deeper than analysis can easily deal with, so I believe in long term listening to assess the emotional impact. Long-term to even out effects due to one's own mood. I feel A/B can't deal properly with sound reproduction since it seems to shut of part of the process that has to do with actually enjoying music! Also, the ears adapt dynamically to sound characteristics, so qualitative A/B is even more difficult. But this is just my personal opinion. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: dvd-audio/sacd players with digital input?
P Floding;169766 Wrote: > An unused word-clock won't make any difference at all to the sound.. I'm > not sure what re-clocking means? If that Helios player is well designed > the DAC's clock will run freely and dictate data-feeding, just like the > SB does. (Of course, it could be badly designed.) > > Competition is good. Hopefully the Transporter will go down a bit in > price soon. Are we talking about a s-pdif input here or not? -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31567 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
jeffmeh;169826 Wrote: > And you have every right to express those subjective opinions. If it > sounds better to you, ultimately, that is what serves you best. > > On the other hand, if one is selling something with a significant price > tag, some buyers may want more than "it sounds better to me." lol This is where it gets tricky! It is unreasonable to demand that manufacturers can prove (substantiate) subjective claims. Just like no-one can really say why a Porsche is better than an MX-5 (if we pretend they have the same 0-60 times and top speed for the sake of the argument). I much prefer subjective marketing BS to fantasy technical explanations with no connection to reality. There is a huge industry of people telling others what, mostly subjectively, is "the best"! When it comes to hi-fi my pet theory (a "truth" for me) is that measured performance is so unreliable because measurement is seldom done in a real context. If you can actually extract the "on paper performance" from a component you should get good sound, but I believe many components fail to deliver when put in real systems. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
opaqueice;169811 Wrote: > Did you read his post? It was quite carefully worded - he precisely > *did not* say that. > > If his position is regarded as "pretty objectivist" we have a serious > problem. It's simply common sense, and so if subjectivists don't > accept it, well... fill in the blank. Um, I was making a joke, man. Note the use of the :) .. -- totoro squeezebox 3 -> mccormack dna .5 -> audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
P Floding;169808 Wrote: > Depends on what you want to do with the information (or "opinon"). If I > think my hifi sounds better after a change, that is good enough for me. > Sometimes you have to be able to trust your ears to get anywhere in this > hobby (and even professionally, I might add). > > I certainly don't intend to tell anyone "how it is", so I reserve the > right to express subjective opinions. (My personal non-proven "truths", > or beliefs, if you wish..) And you have every right to express those subjective opinions. If it sounds better to you, ultimately, that is what serves you best. On the other hand, if one is selling something with a significant price tag, some buyers may want more than "it sounds better to me." lol -- jeffmeh jeffmeh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3986 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
Robin Bowes;169816 Wrote: > opaqueice wrote: > > totoro;169805 Wrote: > >> That seems like a pretty "objectivist" position to me :). The idea > that > >> all objectivists think that if you can't measure it you can't hear > it > >> is a canard. > >> > > > > Did you read his post? It was quite carefully worded - he precisely > > *did not* say that. > > I thought so too, but I'm tired and couldn't think straight about it, > so > I put some music on. :) > > R. Good idea, I am going to put on Ojos de Brujo Flamenco hiphop.just got another CD (3 now) they are all very interesting. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
I sincerely apologise desertrat58 for not reading your original post thoroughly before posting. I will, in future, try to be more diligent before responding to your posts. regards -- Greg Erskine Greg Erskine's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7403 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
lafayette;169793 Wrote: > > I, for one, don't get the need to whine on Internet forums. Sure you do. You've done it plenty of times when others have criticized you on this forum. Hoist by your own petard there, I'd say. -- totoro squeezebox 3 -> mccormack dna .5 -> audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
Lafayette said: Instead of blathering on in cyberspace -- Come on Lafayette, you can blather aswell as the rest of us :-) -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
opaqueice wrote: > totoro;169805 Wrote: >> That seems like a pretty "objectivist" position to me :). The idea that >> all objectivists think that if you can't measure it you can't hear it >> is a canard. >> > > Did you read his post? It was quite carefully worded - he precisely > *did not* say that. I thought so too, but I'm tired and couldn't think straight about it, so I put some music on. :) R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
totoro;169805 Wrote: > That seems like a pretty "objectivist" position to me :). The idea that > all objectivists think that if you can't measure it you can't hear it > is a canard. > > The position I, and I think others, take is: if you can't measure it, > you better be able to show that it can be distinguished in blind tests, > in order to make sure it's doing _something_. > > So I guess I agree with you. Ah, you caught me. What does an audio objectivist who does not concede that there are limits to our ability to objectively measure have in common with an audio subjectivist who does not concede that stated preferences remain unsubstantiated without reliable A/B differentiation? Each is a poor logician. :) -- jeffmeh jeffmeh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3986 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
totoro;169805 Wrote: > That seems like a pretty "objectivist" position to me :). The idea that > all objectivists think that if you can't measure it you can't hear it > is a canard. > Did you read his post? It was quite carefully worded - he precisely *did not* say that. If his position is regarded as "pretty objectivist" we have a serious problem. It's simply common sense, and so if subjectivists don't accept it, well... fill in the blank. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
PhilNYC;169806 Wrote: > Well said, totoro. Their deceptive web page should make anyone hesitant > to buy their product. Their treatment of returns is the nail in the > coffin for me. > There are 3 people on audiogon complaining they haven't received their > refundsthat's enough to make me worry that this is a > pattern, not an exception. Well, there are two things to consider here: 1 - I've never been of the impression that audio people are any good at writing things like marketing copy or promotional material. 2 - Bel Canto just started selling direct a few months ago, and the slow response to requests for refunds might simply be the result of their adjusting from being a manufacturer to being a manufacturer-retailer. These aren't meant to justify the behaviour at all, but simply a possible explanation of why things are happening the way they are. As I said above, I've found Bel Canto extremely good to work with in a manufacturer-dealer relationship...I'd be surprised if they were intentionally misleading people or being dishonest with customers... Fair enough, Phil, that's a good point. I would be open to Bel Canto if they changed their web page, refunded the restock to those that felt and put some kind of explanation on the web page apologizing for any misunderstanding of their policy. I think ant PR guy would adise them to do this anyway. The OP's post was also on Sterophile so BC is getting some bad press from the very people it's targeting for direct, online sales. eg. online savy people who read audiophile forums :-) -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
totoro;169805 Wrote: > That seems like a pretty "objectivist" position to me :). The idea that > all objectivists think that if you can't measure it you can't hear it > is a canard. > > The position I, and I think others, take is: if you can't measure it, > you better be able to show that it can be distinguished in blind tests, > in order to make sure it's doing _something_. > > So I guess I agree with you. Depends on what you want to do with the information (or "opinon"). If I think my hifi sounds better after a change, that is good enough for me. Sometimes you have to be able to trust your ears to get anywhere in this hobby (and even professionally, I might add). I certainly don't intend to tell anyone "how it is", so I reserve the right to express subjective opinions. (My personal non-proven "truths", or beliefs, if you wish..) -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
PhilNYC;169782 Wrote: > I have no doubt that you can get a perfect read via EAC (that's why I > called the MP's method "EAC in a box"). But the point is that there is > verification and re-reads required to get there...and while it may not > need the 100x read capability that the Memory Player provides (and I've > been told it often only takes 2 reads), there does seem to be some > validity to the idea that getting 100% data accuracy on one read is > highly unlikely on a cheap CD-ROM drive or a cheap redbook CD transport > mechanism. When EAC detects an error, it spins down the disc, re reads many times, etc. It's very obvious when it happens, and you see a message after the disc is ripped. What I'm saying is that, much of the time (and most of the time with undamaged CDs) EAC reads the whole thing at 5x or 10x the speed of playback without a single bit being wrong or needing to be re-read. Any other ripping program would do the same (although I haven't verified that, it's clearly true because EAC isn't employing its re-reading function on those CDs). It's not a matter of 1% error, it's a matter of .001% error rates - like maybe *one bit per hour* is wrong. And that's on a $30 CD-ROM drive rather than a $10,000 CD player. Not much of a veil... -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
tomjtx;169800 Wrote: > The fact remains: I now regard Bel Canto as a company not worth doing > business with. It apparently appears that way many others on this > thread, as well. Well said, totoro. Their deceptive web page should make anyone hesitant to buy their product. Their treatment of returns is the nail in the coffin for me. There are 3 people on audiogon complaining they haven't received their refundsthat's enough to make me worry that this is a pattern, not an exception. Well, there are two things to consider here: 1 - I've never been of the impression that audio people are any good at writing things like marketing copy or promotional material. 2 - Bel Canto just started selling direct a few months ago, and the slow response to requests for refunds might simply be the result of their adjusting from being a manufacturer to being a manufacturer-retailer. These aren't meant to justify the behaviour at all, but simply a possible explanation of why things are happening the way they are. As I said above, I've found Bel Canto extremely good to work with in a manufacturer-dealer relationship...I'd be surprised if they were intentionally misleading people or being dishonest with customers... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
That seems like a pretty "objectivist" position to me :). The idea that all objectivists think that if you can't measure it you can't hear it is a canard. The position I, and I think others, take is: if you can't measure it, you better be able to show that it can be distinguished in blind tests, in order to make sure it's doing _something_. So I guess I agree with you. -- totoro squeezebox 3 -> mccormack dna .5 -> audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
wshields;169797 Wrote: > Please everyone, do not be baited by lafayette. It is obvious that he > would like this thread to go away. Lets not give the moderator any > reason to call this a flame war and close the thread. Thanks I wouldn't worry too much about a moderator closing this thread. This is very tame in comparison to some other threads on this forum :-). It's one of the things I like about the slim forums: they are pretty free wheling and people aren't afraid to express their opinion. This is a contrast to audio circle which sometimes is overmoderated for my taste. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
PhilNYC;169801 Wrote: > I'm not here to argue what's audible or not... ;-) > > ...but no one ever seems to ask people why they would bother using EAC > instead of some run-of-the-mill ripping software like Roxio or > something else. So...it must be important to some degree... > > (fwiw, I rip my CDs using iTunes on my Mac with error-correction turned > on. No idea what its doing or what its data accuracy rate is...) Simple: I use EAC because I want to know which CDs are in really bad shape. EAC simply won't rip those, so I'll know. (I had a couple so far.) Also, for geeks like myself, it feels good to know the FLAC represents the CD perfectly -no matter if it's audible or not. I'd use Windoze (Media Player?) if I was a normal user. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
P Floding;169789 Wrote: > But what does "not 100%" mean? > If it a single correction over the time it takes to play a CD, it will > be a blip of a few samples. Who can hear that? > It is not as we are talking 1% of all data being wrong... I'm not here to argue what's audible or not... ;-) ...but no one ever seems to ask people why they would bother using EAC instead of some run-of-the-mill ripping software like Roxio or something else. So...it must be important to some degree... (fwiw, I rip my CDs using iTunes on my Mac with error-correction turned on. No idea what its doing or what its data accuracy rate is...) -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
The fact remains: I now regard Bel Canto as a company not worth doing business with. It apparently appears that way many others on this thread, as well. Well said, totoro. Their deceptive web page should make anyone hesitant to buy their product. Their treatment of returns is the nail in the coffin for me. There are 3 people on audiogon complaining they haven't received their refundsthat's enough to make me worry that this is a pattern, not an exception. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
P Floding;169795 Wrote: > Sometimes an otherwise good company is going down the sleazy route due > to new bad management or new crappy marketing people. > > I don't understand why you go on about "mistakes" etc, when it is > perfectly clear they boast about one thing and then do something > entirely different in practice? > > Oh, and I didn't read the small-print when I bought my car as it was > from a reputable company (BMW). The car industry has converged on > certain standards for accountability -at least in Europe. > > Companies misrepresenting their commitment SHOULD be exposed and > slandered. It's not slander if it's true. I agree with you, modulo that quibble :). -- totoro squeezebox 3 -> mccormack dna .5 -> audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
Please everyone, do not be baited by lafayette. It is obvious that he would like this thread to go away. Lets not give the moderator any reason to call this a flame war and close the thread. Thanks -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
jeffmeh wrote: > How is this for being on the fence? > > If one can reliably differentiate A from B in a blind test, then he can > legitimately state a subjective preference. > > If one cannot reliably differentiate A from B in a blind test, then he > cannot legitimately state a subjective preference. > > Our ability to objectively measure is limited by the technology > available, and perhaps ultimately limited by physical laws (see > Heisenberg). > > If one can legitimately state a subjective preference, yet one cannot > explain the difference through an objective measure, this is a > limitation of our ability to measure, not an invalidation of the > legitimate subjective preference. > > This appears logically sound to me, but if anyone wishes to enlighten > me I am open to it. :) That summarises my position pretty accurately. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
lafayette;169787 Wrote: > That's silly. Two (or one) customers who didn't fully understand the > process compared to thousands of very pleased Bel Canto customers...and > the company is somehow sleazy? > Sometimes an otherwise good company is going down the sleazy route due to new bad management or new crappy marketing people. I don't understand why you go on about "mistakes" etc, when it is perfectly clear they boast about one thing and then do something entirely different in practice? Oh, and I didn't read the small-print when I bought my car as it was from a reputable company (BMW). The car industry has converged on certain standards for accountability -at least in Europe. Companies misrepresenting their commitment SHOULD be exposed and slandered. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
lafayette;169783 Wrote: > Everyone has a definition of sensible. > > My definition: > > When making a high-priced purchase, make your you understand everything > about the situation. Read all the fine print (I mean, it was there, and > it was there linked from the front page and NOT in fine print). Ask > questions. Probe. > > Do you buy a car without asking as many questions about the contract > and warranty as possible? Without asking for definitions? If you > don't, well, then it is your problem. Whether the OP's behavior was "sensible" is neither here nor there for our purposes here. If I leave my house unlocked, it doesn't mean it's ok for someone to walk in and take my belongings. And you are applying the word sensible to the behavior of the OP. This is not what I was talking about. I was talking about the interpretation of the phrase "Risk Free Trial". If you can come up with a plausible alternative reading, please share it. They clearly meant to give people the impression that they meant "Risk Free Trial", when they were really offering "Risk Free with Major Caveats". To reiterate. Regardless of whether the OP's behavior was incautious, Bel Canto behaved poorly. Their only possible defense is that they were "sloppy" in the design of their marketing materials. This may be a good legal defense, but I personally am sick to the teeth of it: we've seen this time again from politicians and corporate malefactors. It seems pretty obvious that they were intentionally being deceptive. Even if it _were_ sloppiness, it would ensure that I never did business with them. The fact remains: I now regard Bel Canto as a company not worth doing business with. It apparently appears that way many others on this thread, as well. -- totoro squeezebox 3 -> mccormack dna .5 -> audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
lafayette;169787 Wrote: > That's silly. Two (or one) customers who didn't fully understand the > process compared to thousands of very pleased Bel Canto customers...and > the company is somehow sleazy? > > Let's suppose they let this thing fall through the cracks. It happens. > I once sent an amp to McIntosh for repair and it came back without > having been repaired. Does that impugn McIntosh or make me dislike the > company? Of course not. Things happen. > > Instead of blathering on in cyberspace -- what the hell is that going > to accomplish? -- why not pick up the phone on Monday, when everyone > will be back from CES, and have a chat with them? Is it so hard to > have a little reserve of patience? As I stated before, I tried to talk to them about it. I wanted to go straight to John. Matt did not return my correspondence sent on January 2nd and I don't have any contact info for John. I find it hard to believe he didn't have any time between Jan 2 and Jan 8(when Ces started) to reply to my email. -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
But the fine print -- and it isn't fine -- does not contradict the splash. See Robin's post on the matter. Look. If you bank ever screws something up on your account do you run screwing to the Internet about it? Or a mechanic who did a less than spectacular job one time? Or maybe a dish that was served too cold but then replaced? Would you? Do people really have to complain about every aspect of their personal business -- and this is personal busiess, so where are you, Radish? -- on the Internet? I, for one, don't get the need to whine on Internet forums. Fifer;169790 Wrote: > No, I wouldn't, but I'd walk away from a dealership where the fine > print contradicts what's in the sales splash, thinking they were > untrustworthy. -- lafayette Sweet Home Alabama lafayette's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9022 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
lafayette;169783 Wrote: > > Do you buy a car without asking as many questions about the contract > and warranty as possible? Without asking for definitions? If you > don't, well, then it is your problem. No, I wouldn't, but I'd walk away from a dealership where the fine print contradicts what's in the sales splash, thinking they were untrustworthy. -- Fifer Fifer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
tomjtx;169772 Wrote: > Maybe you should post on Audio Circle as well. The more bad PR BCD > gets,the > more likely they are to clean up their act. > That audiogon post says it all. If BCD didn't disclose the fee on the > phone then one can reasonably conclude BCD is being deliberately > deceptive. > > The more I hear the more I dislike this company. Maybe I will, but only if lafayette promises to go over there and call me stupid and lazy. I would so much miss his input. -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
PhilNYC;169781 Wrote: > Was the above experiment performed on a computer CD-ROM or a redbook > audio CD? It's my understanding that computer files are read and > error-corrected in a more rigorous method than red book audio files. > > It's also my understanding that software such as EAC provides > statistics on each rip in terms of how many reads were necessary to get > a 100% bit-accurate read. Maybe some of you guys who use EAC can report > what you get in terms of read accuracy? > > > > I suspect it also has something to do with reading data from > solid-state memory (rather than off a hard drive or CD). Yes, a HD just like a transport will be a fairly electro/magnetically noisy device. In a two-box solution, clocked from the DAC, however there shouldn't really be a problem... No it was a audio CD, as CD-ROM was hardly even invented at the time. The professor knew exactly how big a hole could be made before Reed-Solomon couldn't correct it any longer -which he demonstrated. A big hole if I remember correctly. (That old CD-player didn't conceal such errors.) The whole reading-error issue is very misleading, I feel. It is really a non-issue, unless you like to store your CDs unprotected on the floor... -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
That's silly. Two (or one) customers who didn't fully understand the process compared to thousands of very pleased Bel Canto customers...and the company is somehow sleazy? Let's suppose they let this thing fall through the cracks. It happens. I once sent an amp to McIntosh for repair and it came back without having been repaired. Does that impugn McIntosh or make me dislike the company? Of course not. Things happen. Instead of blathering on in cyberspace -- what the hell is that going to accomplish? -- why not pick up the phone on Monday, when everyone will be back from CES, and have a chat with them? Is it so hard to have a little reserve of patience? tomjtx;169772 Wrote: > Maybe you should post on Audio Circle as well. The more bad PR BCD > gets,the > more likely they are to clean up their act. > That audiogon post says it all. If BCD didn't disclose the fee on the > phone then one can reasonably conclude BCD is being deliberately > deceptive. > > The more I hear the more I dislike this company. -- lafayette Sweet Home Alabama lafayette's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9022 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
Everyone has a definition of sensible. My definition: When making a high-priced purchase, make your you understand everything about the situation. Read all the fine print (I mean, it was there, and it was there linked from the front page and NOT in fine print). Ask questions. Probe. Do you buy a car without asking as many questions about the contract and warranty as possible? Without asking for definitions? If you don't, well, then it is your problem. totoro;169778 Wrote: > Give us all a break. We've walked through what a sensible reading of "No > risk trial" means. The only sensible meaning is "no financial risk". > Yes, it is _possible_ to read it some other way, but, in reality, any > other meaning relies on some _other_ risk that nobody here has > defined. > > I can't imagine anyone seriously arguing otherwise on this point. If > you have fine print which contradicts the only sensible reading of your > huge banner text, you are being dishonest and sleazy. End of story, > really. > > And again: maybe it's legal, but who cares? > > I'll put it very bluntly-- calling someone who acts in a sleazy manner > sleazy is not "bad-mouthing" them: it's merely telling the truth. > Sometimes the truth hurts. -- lafayette Sweet Home Alabama lafayette's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9022 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
Thought of making a few remarks where they go out of the bend, but it isn't worth the trouble. Would be longer than the bl***y article. -- Havoc Havoc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5064 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
opaqueice;169779 Wrote: > Perfect reads are very common. I've ripped close to 1000 CDs now (as > have many others on this forum), so I have considerable experience with > this, and I ofen get bit-perfect reads (usually when I don't it's > because the CD is damaged). The fact that the read is absolutely > perfect can be established with total confidence with a check bit > technique compared to an online database. It's very easy to set up EAC > to do this (and I have), as well as some other programs. I have no doubt that you can get a perfect read via EAC (that's why I called the MP's method "EAC in a box"). But the point is that there is verification and re-reads required to get there...and while it may not need the 100x read capability that the Memory Player provides (and I've been told it often only takes 2 reads), there does seem to be some validity to the idea that getting 100% data accuracy on one read is highly unlikely on a cheap CD-ROM drive or a cheap redbook CD transport mechanism. -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
P Floding;169771 Wrote: > Imperfect reads are corrected 100% almost all the time. That's what the > correction code is for. Our university professor drilled a decent size > hole in a CD to demonstrate what could be corrected with Reed-Solomon. > Uncorrectable reads are seldom even one per disc. Even if there were 10 > such uncorrectble errors, which are automatically concealed by CD > players, how could they "veil" a whole CD? Was the above experiment performed on a computer CD-ROM or a redbook audio CD? It's my understanding that computer files are read and error-corrected in a more rigorous method than red book audio files. It's also my understanding that software such as EAC provides statistics on each rip in terms of how many reads were necessary to get a 100% bit-accurate read. Maybe some of you guys who use EAC can report what you get in terms of read accuracy? > The real reasons the player sounds good probably have more to do with > not running a transport while producing the desired analogue signal. I suspect it also has something to do with reading data from solid-state memory (rather than off a hard drive or CD). -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
lafayette;169760 Wrote: > That's an easy one: > > 1. You bad-mouthed the company for following a published policy. > > 2. What facts did you not check? Must I restate the obvious? You did > not check the specifics of the policy. There is an obvious link to it. > Most reasonable people about to make a very expensive purchase -- or at > least many -- would bother to read the details. > > There. I think I've said it two or three times now. Give us all a break. We've walked through what a sensible reading of "No risk trial" means. The only sensible meaning is "no financial risk". Yes, it is _possible_ to read it some other way, but, in reality, any other meaning relies on some _other_ risk that nobody here has defined. I can't imagine anyone seriously arguing otherwise on this point. If you have fine print which contradicts the only sensible reading of your huge banner text, you are being dishonest and sleazy. End of story, really. And again: maybe it's legal, but who cares? I'll put it very bluntly-- calling someone who acts in a sleazy manner sleazy is not "bad-mouthing" them: it's merely telling the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts. -- totoro squeezebox 3 -> mccormack dna .5 -> audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
PhilNYC;169767 Wrote: > I am under the impression that while bad reads aren't running rampant, > perfect reads of audio data aren't as common as this either. Perfect reads are very common. I've ripped close to 1000 CDs now (as have many others on this forum), so I have considerable experience with this, and I ofen get bit-perfect reads (usually when I don't it's because the CD is damaged). The fact that the read is absolutely perfect can be established with total confidence with a check bit technique compared to an online database. It's very easy to set up EAC to do this (and I have), as well as some other programs. So read errors are simply not an issue for undamaged CDs. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
jhm731;169764 Wrote: > There's also a review on stereotimes.com. > > Everyone(this includes SB/TP users)I know that's heard the MP feels > it's the best sounding digital playback they've ever heard. That was not my experience. I prefered the Ayre and the TP both over the MP. Course, it's all just preferences. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
wshields;169761 Wrote: > By the way, I did crosspost this on Audiogon. Here is what someone else > had to say > > "01-12-07: Mchd1 > Wshields: I understand your feelings about this. I purchased the player > over the telephone and was not told about the restocking fee even though > we discussed the option of returning the player if I was not happy with > it. It was only after I received the player and decided to return it > that I saw the restocking fee statement on their webpage when I was > looking for information about the return process. I can live with the > 5% restocking fee. What is irritating to me is that the company doesn't > seem to be in any hurry to refund any of my money. " > > http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1168110920&openflup&15&4#15 Maybe you should post on Audio Circle as well. The more bad PR BCD gets,the more likely they are to clean up their act. That audiogon post says it all. If BCD didn't disclose the fee on the phone then one can reasonably conclude BCD is being deliberately deceptive. The more I hear the more I dislike this company. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
PhilNYC;169767 Wrote: > I am under the impression that while bad reads aren't running rampant, > perfect reads of audio data aren't as common as this either. Imperfect reads are corrected 100% almost all the time. That's what the correction code is for. Our university professor drilled a decent size hole in a CD to demonstrate what could be corrected with Reed-Solomon. Uncorrectable reads are seldom even one per disc. Even if there were 10 such uncorrectble errors, which are automatically concealed by CD players, how could they "veil" a whole CD? The real reasons the player sounds good probably have more to do with not running a transport while producing the desired analogue signal. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
How is this for being on the fence? If one can reliably differentiate A from B in a blind test, then he can legitimately state a subjective preference. If one cannot reliably differentiate A from B in a blind test, then he cannot legitimately state a subjective preference. Our ability to objectively measure is limited by the technology available, and perhaps ultimately limited by physical laws (see Heisenberg). If one can legitimately state a subjective preference, yet one cannot explain the difference through an objective measure, this is a limitation of our ability to measure, not an invalidation of the legitimate subjective preference. This appears logically sound to me, but if anyone wishes to enlighten me I am open to it. :) -- jeffmeh jeffmeh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3986 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
Lafayette, Show me were I bad mouthed the company. I told what happened. I did not make anything up or say anything other than what happened. If THEY look bad it is because of what they did and how they presented this policy. Read my original post. -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
By the way, I did crosspost this on Audiogon. Here is what someone else had to say "01-12-07: Mchd1 Wshields: I understand your feelings about this. I purchased the player over the telephone and was not told about the restocking fee even though we discussed the option of returning the player if I was not happy with it. It was only after I received the player and decided to return it that I saw the restocking fee statement on their webpage when I was looking for information about the return process. I can live with the 5% restocking fee. What is irritating to me is that the company doesn't seem to be in any hurry to refund any of my money. " http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1168110920&openflup&15&4#15 -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: dvd-audio/sacd players with digital input?
Skunk;169748 Wrote: > Could be because only the expensive players have the reclocking or word > clock interface to make it sound decent, not that such chips/circuits > are outrageously expensive. An unused word-clock won't make any difference at all to the sound.. I'm not sure what re-clocking means? If that Helios player is well designed the DAC's clock will run freely and dictate data-feeding, just like the SB does. (Of course, it could be badly designed.) Competition is good. Hopefully the Transporter will go down a bit in price soon. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31567 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
lafayette Wrote: > > > I'm sure you're a big, brave man who tells strangers on the street > to > > shut up. You can't edit an email :P Ten seconds of happy thoughts before posting might go a long way towards making friends in cyberspace. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
Mark Lanctot;169746 Wrote: > I'm very curious, what is the suggested retail price? If this would > break marketing arrangements, could you give a range? > > The website has that "if you have to ask, it's not for you" feel > regarding the price. I'm not associated with Nova Physics in any capacity, so the only issue with disclosing the price is that I don't actually know...! I do know, however, that the base price of the unit is in the $10K vicinity. There are some options available that would raise the price, but I don't know the specifics of those. -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
There's also a review on stereotimes.com. Everyone(this includes SB/TP users)I know that's heard the MP feels it's the best sounding digital playback they've ever heard. -- jhm731 jhm731's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
That's an easy one: 1. You bad-mouthed the company for following a published policy. 2. What facts did you not check? Must I restate the obvious? You did not check the specifics of the policy. There is an obvious link to it. Most reasonable people about to make a very expensive purchase -- or at least many -- would bother to read the details. There. I think I've said it two or three times now. wshields;169755 Wrote: > Lafayette, > Read my orginal post. Where did I flame them?? I stated I thought > their No Risk Purchase Plan was misleading. Then I told exactly what > happened in my situation. If they look bad it is because of what THEY > did, not what I said. What facts did I not check? -- lafayette Sweet Home Alabama lafayette's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9022 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
Lafayette, you state: "However, the post did not belong on this forum. He essentially flamed BCD without having checked all the facts himself! And he did this on at least two forums!" Read my orginal post. Where did I flame them?? I stated I thought their No Risk Purchase Plan was misleading. Then I told exactly what happened in my situation. If they look bad it is because of what THEY did, not what I said. What facts did I not check? -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
With such a major technological innovation, I'm disappointed that they did not figure out a way to restore all that analog data lost between the digital samples. :-P -- jeffmeh jeffmeh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3986 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
P Floding;169747 Wrote: > > > Secondly: Uncorrectable errors are very rare, so it is impossible that > entire CDs can be "veiled" (that word again) by such errors. > > It is all just marketing speak to lure in non-technical audiophiles. > Snake oil. $30 CD-ROM players can often rip a CD absolutely perfectly at 10x audio speed in one go. We discussed this Nova physics player before on this forum, with even some of the same quotes being posted and the same sentiments being expressed. I'm too lazy to search for the thread, but it's there somewhere... -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: dvd-audio/sacd players with digital input?
Could be because only the expensive players have the reclocking or word clock interface to make it sound decent, not that such chips/circuits are outrageously expensive. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31567 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
And there is more tosh. I found this just glancing at the text: "But just like the "perfect sound forever" business, RS-ECC, according to Mark, falls short of perfection. And, he goes on, because RS-ECC is not perfect, it is at the top of the list of reasons why the quality of CD sound is constantly being called into question. The basic problem, he claims, is that in many cases RS-ECC creates uncorrelated bits of data when it finds missing bits that cannot be derived from the existing or redundant data. Mark insists that it is this uncorrelated data that come across as a layer of irritating sounds during normal CD playback. We are talking here about a subtle, almost subliminal, synthetic veiling of the sound. While not something overt, it is a tenuous, drone-like contamination always prevailing in the background. It gets to some people more than others, but it is always there." First: RS-ECC does not introduce arbitrary bits. It either corrects or it doesn't correct any errors. Secondly: Uncorrectable errors are very rare, so it is impossible that entire CDs can be "veiled" (that word again) by such errors. It is all just marketing speak to lure in non-technical audiophiles. Snake oil. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
PhilNYC;169731 Wrote: > I've had many discussions with proponents of the Nova Physics player > regarding some of NP's claims...it's my personal opinion that while > they make some interesting points, "EAC-in-a-box" and "compact flash > memory" are cheap, and not nearly costly enough to justify the price of > that player. I'm very curious, what is the suggested retail price? If this would break marketing arrangements, could you give a range? The website has that "if you have to ask, it's not for you" feel regarding the price. -- Mark Lanctot Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
To me not just should there not have been any restocking fee the postage to and from should be refunded. No Risk is just that, you don't risk anything. Anything short of this policy is deception, intentional or not. When I run into a situation like this I always have to wonder if the difference between the claim and reality is deliberately intended to deceive or just laziness on the part of the marketer. Both situations are depressingly common. Having said that, I agree the original poster should have read the policy and not inferred the "obvious". I have found after decades of mail order buying that you need to read policies very carefully if you think there is any chance you may return it. It seems that with the advent of e-tailing and the intense competition that has ensued the mail/email order places are getting nastier and more crooked. Caveat Emptor -- regalma1 regalma1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6658 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
Robin Bowes;169714 Wrote: > opaqueice wrote: > > This isn't new. > > > > And there's a much, much better and cheaper method for doing exactly > > the same thing, and much, much more. > > > > It's called the Slim Devices Squeezebox. Heard of it? > > It was almost plausible until I read: > > "In his investigations, Mark discovered that data read from a hard > drive > directly will exhibit higher levels of jitter. If however, the data is > retrieved from a flash memory, it is far less tainted and practically > jitter-free." > > What utter tosh. > > Unless he's talking about reading audio data synchronously from the > HDD? > > R. He, he! Thanks for that snippet! I would never have read far enough to see that... Really funny! BTW, I used to have a Marantz SA-1 which read the discs at 2x normal speed, thus most definately did not have data induced jitter. "Tosh" is the word. Of course, the memoryplayer could still sound good -but not for the reasons stated. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
Eric Carroll wrote: > Robin Bowes;169729 Wrote: >> opaqueice wrote:[color=blue] >> There is a world of difference between a belief that there is no major >> difference between modern DACs and refusing to accept that DAC A could >> be different to DAC B simply because you can't understand how that >> could be possible. >> > > Robin, > > First, I didn't say that, or didn't mean to say that - see my clarifing > post. They could be different. My point is that if the test the same on > the bench, and they ABX the same, they are the same regardless of > subjective impressions otherwise since statistically some people will > hear a difference even when none exists. Agreed, but that's not the same as "I can't see how a SB3/good DAC and a Tp could be different in sound quality" However, your clarification makes think I understand your PoV. I genuinely don't have any deeply-rooted opinions about all this. I find (most) of the discussion interesting, edifying, and (mostly) enjoyable. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: on the audibility of phase differences
concerning your DCX Chris -- krzys krzys's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2256 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31590 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: on the audibility of phase differences
Phil Leigh;169720 Wrote: > Nearly - what I'm saying is that by setting the phase shift of each band > (treble/mid/bass) to compensate for/counteract the corresponding natural > shift in the speaker driver mounted in its enclosure, what comes out of > the speaker as whole is phase-coherent (within limits of course!). > > It's very hard (impossible?) to do this accurate phase manipulation > with conventional passives, but easier with line level analogue filters > and much easier with digital. I see... your crossovers are customized for your speakers? Sounds pretty hard to get right otherwise - you'd have to match the phase versus frequency curve for each driver and cancel it out, which would mean adjusting the characteristics of the crossover depending on the speaker. But I suppose if you designed the system as a whole from the start with this in mind it might not be too bad. What speakers do you have, if you don't mind my asking? I vaguely remember they were some variety of active studio monitors - is that right? Interesting discussion - thanks very much for your responses so far, by the way. They've been very informative. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31590 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
Robin Bowes;169729 Wrote: > opaqueice wrote:[color=blue] > There is a world of difference between a belief that there is no major > difference between modern DACs and refusing to accept that DAC A could > be different to DAC B simply because you can't understand how that > could be possible. > Robin, First, I didn't say that, or didn't mean to say that - see my clarifing post. They could be different. My point is that if the test the same on the bench, and they ABX the same, they are the same regardless of subjective impressions otherwise since statistically some people will hear a difference even when none exists. Second, I agree with you. Placebo/suggestion is a powerful effect, and it impacts me just as much as anyone. It impacts me as well as anyone. Ok? Peace? -- Eric Carroll Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
Eric Carroll wrote: > I have no interest inciting a subjectivist vs. objectivist flame war > here. I respect your opinion and in fact agree with the comment you > made about circuit layout, etc. Circuit layout impacts noise and noise > is a major consideration and, most importantly is measurable. I am neither - I'm staunchly on the fence! > What I perhaps should have said is that two DACs that test out equally > well (low noise, flat response, low harmonics) won't have a color. > Specifically if the Tp tests out the same as a SB3/DAC1 then it is my > opinion that coloration is a subjectively induced issue and would fail > a double blind ABX test. If however such a test were to show a > statistically significant ability to pick the right one, then, the > measurement was not the right measurement and we would have something > to talk about. > > While I am not an analog circuit expert or an EE, everything I know in > the digital domain (and that is a lot) tells me this statement is true. > However, I have not done a double blind study to confirm it nor do I yet > know of any. I will happily accept any data based correction. > > This is my opinion and I hope others will respect that fact, too. Eric, I don't disagree with you, so don't take this as an argument - rather a discussion of the issues. I agree that, in theory, audible differences should be measurable (that's my objective side) but I also believe that it is entirely possible for the human ear to detect differences that are difficult, if not impossible to measure (subjectivist). I also believe that the brain is easily fooled, and might be tricked into hearing differences that aren't there. It's not the digital domain that is the problem - once the audio data is digital it's fairly bomb-proof. It's when you come to convert from the digital information to an analogue signal that the problems start, and that's without getting into how the audio might be managed in the analogue domain. So, as you see - a pretty mixed up viewpoint with no strong opinion either way. All that really means is that I can argue with everybody!! :) R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
I've had many discussions with proponents of the Nova Physics player regarding some of NP's claims...it's my personal opinion that while they make some interesting points, "EAC-in-a-box" and "compact flash memory" are cheap, and not nearly costly enough to justify the price of that player. That said, I have heard the player (in direct comparison with some pretty high-end CD players including the Linn Unidisk and the Gryphon Mikado), and the NP player sounds absolutely fantastic...so whatever they are doing, they are doing it very well... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
It's a MARKETING BREAK-THROUGH! TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
I'm just s glad I had a glass of wine before visiting that site! -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto "No Risk Purchase Plan"
totoro;169707 Wrote: > The more I think about it, the more I agree with P Floding and Robin's > later assessment. The only sensible reading of "no risk" is "no > financial risk". P Floding hit the nail on the head for me when he said > "what other kind of risk is there?" for this kind of transaction. > > This caveat means essentially, "30 day trial period with a $150 fee > that can be applied towards the purchase price". Seriously: it's > absolutely logically equivalent, as far as I can see. > > If that's what they had said, at least they would have been obvious. > IMHO what they did was commit a sleazy linguistic sleight of hand. I > honestly don't think I know anyone who would interpret "No Risk Trial" > and "30 day trial period with a $150 fee that can be applied towards > the purchase price" as having the same semantics. > > As I said earlier, whether or not this is a legal difference is a moot > point. I won't do business with a company I perceive as being > unethical. > > Who knows what other dirty tricks they might have up their sleeve, say > when you need warrantee service? > > Kind of reminds me of the scene in "the Meaning of Life" where a guy > has to give up his liver while he's still alive because he didn't read > the fine print of his organ donor agreement. Let's hope BCD looks at this thread. They should be alarmed by all this bad publicity and perhaps they will take steps to improve their image. Is squeezing the 150.00 out of the OP worth all this bad PR? -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
opaqueice wrote: > Robin Bowes;169706 Wrote: >> >>> PERSONALLY SPEAKING, I can't see how a SB3/good DAC and a Tp could >> be >>> different in sound quality. >> PERSONALLY SPEAKING, then you're probably in the wrong forum! :) >> >> R. > > There are a quite number of us on this forum that share something close > to that view, actually. Being an audiophile means you care about good > sound quality, not that you believe there is a major difference between > modern DACs. There is a world of difference between a belief that there is no major difference between modern DACs and refusing to accept that DAC A could be different to DAC B simply because you can't understand how that could be possible. There is a tendency among some folk to dismiss anything that they can't explain - this problem is made worse when the same folk acquire an above-average knowledge in the subject area in question. I think the old maxim holds true here: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
Robin Bowes;169706 Wrote: > Eric Carroll wrote: > >... the same DACs the Tp has so its the same as a Tp. > > *cough*. I rather think not. It may be better or worse but it will > almost certainly be different, unless both the circuit and layout are > very similar to the Transporter and the SB3->DAC external link > performs > in a very similar manner to the interface internal to the Transporter. > Robin, Just so I am being clear. I have no interest inciting a subjectivist vs. objectivist flame war here. I respect your opinion and in fact agree with the comment you made about circuit layout, etc. Circuit layout impacts noise and noise is a major consideration and, most importantly is measurable. What I perhaps should have said is that two DACs that test out equally well (low noise, flat response, low harmonics) won't have a color. Specifically if the Tp tests out the same as a SB3/DAC1 then it is my opinion that coloration is a subjectively induced issue and would fail a double blind ABX test. If however such a test were to show a statistically significant ability to pick the right one, then, the measurement was not the right measurement and we would have something to talk about. While I am not an analog circuit expert or an EE, everything I know in the digital domain (and that is a lot) tells me this statement is true. However, I have not done a double blind study to confirm it nor do I yet know of any. I will happily accept any data based correction. This is my opinion and I hope others will respect that fact, too. -- Eric Carroll Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: on the audibility of phase differences
opaqueice;169701 Wrote: > Sorry, I'm not getting it. It sounds like what you're saying is that > the crossovers introduce a different phase shift for each of the three > outputs. So that would mean that the woofer has one phase, mid has > another, and tweeter has a third (and thus there are two numbers - the > differences - that matter, since we don't care about absolute phase). > That sounds right to me, at least to a good approximation (the phase > shifts will depend a little bit on frequency even within each band, but > maybe not much). So each driver has a different relative phase, but > within each band the phase would be more or less untouched. Is that > what you're saying? Sorry to be so slow. > > On the other hand I believe the DEQX is capable of driving all its > outputs with the same phase. This is certainly possible in principle - > all you have to do is delay each signal by the appropriate amount to > cancel the relative phase shifts, and it seems that would be easy to do > digitally. Nearly - what I'm saying is that by setting the phase shift of each band (treble/mid/bass) to compensate for/counteract the corresponding natural shift in the speaker driver mounted in its enclosure, what comes out of the speaker as whole is phase-coherent (within limits of course!). It's very hard (impossible?) to do this accurate phase manipulation with conventional passives, but easier with line level analogue filters and much easier with digital. -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31590 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: on the audibility of phase differences
You can get a behringer dcx 2496 for around 250 to play around with this stuff. I have one sitting in my closet that i've never used. If you want it, i'll sell it cheap. -- totoro squeezebox 3 -> mccormack dna .5 -> audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31590 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
konut;169704 Wrote: > Its the flash vs. buffer thats got me thinking. Oho: > As data, using the RUR process, is retrieved it is stored in an > electronic, or flash, memory and not on a hard drive. In his > investigations, Mark discovered that data read from a hard drive > directly will exhibit higher levels of jitter. If however, the data is > retrieved from a flash memory, it is far less tainted and practically > jitter-free. Oh now THAT is interesting...and now subject to intense dissection. Pray tell, what is the inherent jitter of an off-the-shelf hard drive, hmm? I was going to point out one factual error: > By spinning the CD at a very high speed, and with the aid of a custom > laser pickup process, the data is read and reread over the course of > many passes, until all the data residing in the pits on the CD has been > amassed. (the data does not "reside in the pits", rather the change in reflectance between the pits and the lands forms the code) but it pales in comparison to the "hard drive jitter" thing. -- Mark Lanctot Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31595 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: on the audibility of phase differences
Correct me if I'm wrong. Won't the passive speaker xover affect dispersion patterns of the drivers, and the line level, wheather active or passive, digital or analog, not? -- konut konut's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31590 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Need to brighten sound of new SB3 --> Transporter or DAC?
Robin Bowes;169706 Wrote: > > > > PERSONALLY SPEAKING, I can't see how a SB3/good DAC and a Tp could > be > > different in sound quality. > > PERSONALLY SPEAKING, then you're probably in the wrong forum! :) > > R. There are a quite number of us on this forum that share something close to that view, actually. Being an audiophile means you care about good sound quality, not that you believe there is a major difference between modern DACs. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31533 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Nova Physics: Let the Fur Fly
opaqueice wrote: > This isn't new. > > And there's a much, much better and cheaper method for doing exactly > the same thing, and much, much more. > > It's called the Slim Devices Squeezebox. Heard of it? It was almost plausible until I read: "In his investigations, Mark discovered that data read from a hard drive directly will exhibit higher levels of jitter. If however, the data is retrieved from a flash memory, it is far less tainted and practically jitter-free." What utter tosh. Unless he's talking about reading audio data synchronously from the HDD? R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
