Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
I see your point but these where really no-brainers that turned out as anticipated. / chill;194493 Wrote: So you really allowed yourself time to get to know the sound of your new toy then. I'd hate to think you were rushing into an assessment of the sound of the stock item :-) And of course that sound will still have been fresh in your mind by the time you had completed your mods. -- jonte0 jonte0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11065 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
Welcome to SlimDevices audiophile forum. You'll feel at home here. MC -- ModelCitizen It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Transporter Naim NAP 250 PMC OB1s. http://www.last.fm/user/ModelCitizen ModelCitizen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
I'm curious about the mechanism for the sound improvement. Since you aren't using the SB3's analogue outputs, your SB3 is simply passing bits to your DAC, so the 2.4GHz interference must either be affecting the ability of your SB3 to handle those bits, or it is affecting the other equipment in your setup. If it's the latter mechanism, then perhaps we'd better switch off our wireless access points, and while we're at it chuck out our cordless phones, and our bluetooth mobile phones. -- chill chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] So what are the 'audiophile camps' anyway?
CatBus;194466 Wrote: Never thought I'd be a vinyl defender, but here goes ;) Vinyl is a very unforgiving medium. Very true. You have to master the audio extremely well or it will run into vinyl's limitations and sound like crap. You mean in the sense that the bass has to be mono'd to prevent the out of phase signal causing the cutter head to leave the lacquer? And in the sense that the treble has to be boosted to counteract vinyl's natural lack of top end capability (I'm not talking about the RIAA eq here)? CDs on the other hand are very forgiving. You can compress and amplify the audio like crazy (and other stupid things) and it will sound much, much better than if you tried to master an LP in the same fashion If you mastered an LP in the same way, you'd be lucky to get 5 minutes of playing time on a side. And the record would be untrackable by 99% of pickup cartridges. So yes, you have a point. As a result, many modern pop and rock releases do sound better on vinyl than CD, because the medium prevents the use of hypercompression. This suggests that the colourations and distortions of vinyl are often preferable to the effects of hypercompression. Because I like to fancy myself an objectivist, I'd like to believe that if the vinyl master was used on the CD, the CD would sound much better than the vinyl. I respectfully disagree. If an LP master was used to cut a CD, it would sound far too bright, because of the treble boost that is added. I've heard some early CDs that I suspect were indeed made this way (example: first British CD release of Going for the One by Yes). And I reiterate - I'm not talking about the RIAA eq here. -- cliveb Performers - dozens of mixers and effects - clipped/hypercompressed mastering - you think a few extra ps of jitter matters? cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34379 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Buying Transporters in the UK
komikada;194422 Wrote: I've been trying to get a QNAP TS-101 for some time (unavailable) and I'm under the impression that the units that ship now do not have SlimServer pre-installed anymore (at least the specs don't mention it). Can anyone confirm this? Only units supplied by Progressive AV or one of their re-sellers, come with SlimServer installed. This is not a standard Qnap setup. -- funkstar funkstar's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34313 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] So what are the 'audiophile camps' anyway?
cliveb;194546 Wrote: As a result, many modern pop and rock releases do sound better on vinyl than CD, because the medium prevents the use of hypercompression. This suggests that the colourations and distortions of vinyl are often preferable to the effects of hypercompression. Clive, I'm a little confused about your point on hypercompression. I assume the issue we're talking about is how so many recent pop CDs have everything compressed into a 6-7db volume range. I thought that this would have been completed during mastering, and as such would result in it being applied to both CD and LP in the same way. Is this not the case? -- Mr_Sukebe SB+, Behringer 2496DEQ, Bel Canto DAC2, Bel Canto Evo2i, Impulse Ta'us, Coherent cables, Stillpoints Mr_Sukebe's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10609 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34379 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] So what are the 'audiophile camps' anyway?
Nostromo;194511 Wrote: Check out the DSM-IV. You'll find the answer to your question under the entry audiophilia. ;-) There's something very disturbing about psychiatry in-jokes, or is that just me being paranoid? ;) Nostromo;194511 Wrote: I don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about when you say: - Pace, rhythm and timing - epitomised by Naim equipment, I guess, and analogue over 'bits' Most PRaT protagonists (Pratagonists?) would therefore gently nod their head and chalk you down as someone who 'just doesn't get it'. Maybe that's one of the camp 'issues' - you know you're right, and can't understand how the others can't hear right. Naturally, nothing can be explained! Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost and Anti-cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34379 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cardboard listening room
It has a 'profound duality'. I want one (or do I need two for surround sound?) -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost and Anti-cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34415 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
chill;194543 Wrote: I'm curious about the mechanism for the sound improvement. Since you aren't using the SB3's analogue outputs, your SB3 is simply passing bits to your DAC, so the 2.4GHz interference must either be affecting the ability of your SB3 to handle those bits, or it is affecting the other equipment in your setup. If it's the latter mechanism, then perhaps we'd better switch off our wireless access points, and while we're at it chuck out our cordless phones, and our bluetooth mobile phones. Don't forget switching psu's :) -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] So what are the 'audiophile camps' anyway?
adamslim;194561 Wrote: Most PRaT protagonists (Pratagonists?) would therefore gently nod their head and chalk you down as someone who 'just doesn't get it'. Maybe that's one of the camp 'issues' - you know you're right, and can't understand how the others can't hear right. Naturally, nothing can be explained! These are all ways to try to describe something very subjective, namely the experience of listening to music on a particular system. Being subjective there's no one way to do it right, but I have to say that PRaT has always struck me as particularly bad description.Responses like the above don't help much ;-). Stereo systems can not have bad timing or pace or rhythm in any musical sense - they reproduce music, perhaps with some distortion and phase delay, but such delays are on a time scale much, much below the time scales of rhythm in music. One way to see that that is true is simply to listen off-axis and see what effect that has. I'm not saying there isn't something there that people mean when they refer to PRaT, just that the term itself is very misleading, to the point that it's quite possible everone using it may mean something different by it. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34379 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] McIntosh MS300
Thank you all for your kind and precise comments and directions. Giacomo -- gbruzzo gbruzzo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3633 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34396 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Buying Transporters in the UK
I am either going to get a Transporter or SB+ (www.at-tunes.co.uk) (£1000). From what I have picked up the SB+ sounds better than the Transporter although I dont see any brand value or volume with the SB+ and so long term backup is more doubtful with SB+. Im keen to get whatever info I can, including where to get them with slimserver installed, which would aid me in coming to a decision, as I may not get a chance to listen bore I buy since I am living in Brussels and will move to Brisbane mid year. -- Mark Scanlan MarkS Mark Scanlan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34313 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] So what are the 'audiophile camps' anyway?
Mr_Sukebe;194555 Wrote: Clive, I'm a little confused about your point on hypercompression. I assume the issue we're talking about is how so many recent pop CDs have everything compressed into a 6-7db volume range. I thought that this would have been completed during mastering, and as such would result in it being applied to both CD and LP in the same way. Is this not the case? The final mastering done for LP and CD releases is radically different. (As I mentiond in my previous posting, LP mastering requires all sorts of compromises due to the mechnical limitations of the medium. CD mastering requires none of these compromises). The hypercompression which plagues modern pop/rock CDs is completely incompatible with delivery on vinyl. If such hypercompression were to be used on a vinyl release, the only way to fit it onto the LP would be to cut the album at such a low level that: (i) surface noise would be a terrible problem; and (ii) the LP would be very quiet (which defeats the purpose of hypercompression in the first place, which is to make things sound as loud as possible). Therefore the mastering for LP uses significantly less dynamic range compression than is used for CD. -- cliveb Performers - dozens of mixers and effects - clipped/hypercompressed mastering - you think a few extra ps of jitter matters? cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34379 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Speaker recommendations
Hi all, I want to setup my kitchen and am looking for recommendations for a good, compact set of speakers. My wife likes the small Bose ones - so something similarly unintrusive without the cost that I can plug the sqeezebox into would be welcome. I am looking at Acoustic Energy Aego M 2.1 atm. Any thoughts/experience appreciated. -- darwinsmooth darwinsmooth's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11121 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34423 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Super Squeezebox Project
crooner;194401 Wrote: And thanks for your Super Regulator offer. I'd love to try one of those. What's the voltage output? It's positive. Vout = Vref * (1+R8/R9) [ http://www.at-tunes.co.uk/ ... ALWSR ALWSR manual.pdf ] I have a feeling you're right about lead lengths, and if you use this it should be really close to the circuit. I planned on using standoffs somehow for about 1 inch of wire length... You can PM me your address if you're still interested. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34291 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
Skunk Ahem - worthy credentials indeed. I'm probably more guilty of sarcasm than most, for which I apologise because sometimes the sarcasm isn't clear and confuses the point. Case in point: are you suggesting that the digital jack replacement is seriously the cause of the improvement, or are you being sarcastic as well? Does this jack somehow pass the 'ones' and 'noughts' better - ie did a 'one' sometimes pass as a 'nought' with the old jack? Did some of the 'ones' get left behind, or arrive late? In case I'm giving the wrong impression here, I'm really not being sarcastic. I've often wondered how improvements to the transmission of the bits changes things, since it's my impression that the receiving end simply has to decide whether it's received a 'one' or a 'nought'. If the waveform is so bad that bits are misinterpreted then I can see how the sound would be affected, but how bad does it have to be, and in what way, before the 'ones' and 'noughts' are not properly interpreted. Does the jitter in the bit stream mean that bit boundaries are misaligned by one whole bit for instance? Does a mis-shapen leading edge cause the receiving end to interpret a 'one' as a 'nought'? It was this lack of knowledge on my part that prompted my sarcastic question about whether the 2.4 GHz interference could affect the transmission of the bits. -- chill chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Speaker recommendations
darwinsmooth;194586 Wrote: Hi all, I want to setup my kitchen and am looking for recommendations for a good, compact set of speakers. My wife likes the small Bose ones - so something similarly unintrusive without the cost that I can plug the sqeezebox into would be welcome. I am looking at Acoustic Energy Aego M 2.1 atm. Any thoughts/experience appreciated. The bose ones are all looks and no performance. If you want unintrusive, and you can install them, in-wall speakers are the best option. You can get full-size drivers, and use a hidden amplifier. The downside of course is you need to install them in the wall. -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34423 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
chill;194599 Wrote: Skunk Ahem - worthy credentials indeed. I'm probably more guilty of sarcasm than most, for which I apologise because sometimes the sarcasm isn't clear and confuses the point. I'm confused as to whether 'ahem' clears the sarcasm from the air, or highlights it... Case in point: are you suggesting that the digital jack replacement is seriously the cause of the improvement, or are you being sarcastic as well? Yes, and no sarcasm intended. Whether it will be audible I don't know, but how can a true 75 ohm interface *not* be an improvement over something with unknown impedance? This is not like buying a $300 digital cable with RCA connectors. 'No-brainer' was a pretty good choice of words by Jonte0, IMO. I have a wired Sb, so don't worry about wireless issues. As for my opinion, I trust Sean on this one. Why would he send a wireless Sb out for review to Stereophile, or one with a switching PS for that matter, if he didn't believe the performance wasn't hindered by their use? That said, I'd probably disconnect the card if mine had one, because I've never had a dropout (using Inguz EQ) and have grown used to the wire coming out of hole in the floor. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
chill;194599 Wrote: In case I'm giving the wrong impression here, I'm really not being sarcastic. I've often wondered how improvements to the transmission of the bits changes things, since it's my impression that the receiving end simply has to decide whether it's received a 'one' or a 'nought'. If the waveform is so bad that bits are misinterpreted then I can see how the sound would be affected, but how bad does it have to be, and in what way, before the 'ones' and 'noughts' are not properly interpreted. Does the jitter in the bit stream mean that bit boundaries are misaligned by one whole bit for instance? Does a mis-shapen leading edge cause the receiving end to interpret a 'one' as a 'nought'? You have to remember that in S/PDIF, the clock for the DAC is reconstructed using the arrival time of the bits. So if there are variations (jitter) in the time the rising edges of the signal arrive, the analogue output will be distorted even if there are zero actual bit errors. That said, even a very sharp feature at 2.4 GHz would alias down to an extremely broad spectrum at audio frequencies, no? So it's hard to see how such high frequency noise could do anything other than contribute a little bit to the noise floor. Am I missing something there? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
Skunk;194607 Wrote: I'm confused as to whether 'ahem' clears the sarcasm from the air, or highlights it... It was supposed to clear it. It was an embarrassed cough! opaqueice;194610 Wrote: ...in S/PDIF, the clock for the DAC is reconstructed using the arrival time of the bits... Ok, that explains a lot. I can see how effects on the bit stream can affect the sound. But back to the connector issue then - for the sake of my ignorance, how does the impedance affect the rate/shape/whatever of the bits? -- chill chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
chill;194614 Wrote: Ok, that explains a lot. I can see how effects on the bit stream can affect the sound. But back to the connector issue then - for the sake of my ignorance, how does the impedance affect the rate/shape/whatever of the bits? Not much, I suspect. The received wisdom among audiophiles is that impedance mismatches in interconnect cables can lead to reflections, which in turn contribute to jitter. However most people discussing this seem to have transmission lines in mind (where this is in fact a real concern). S/PDIF along a 1 meter interconnect is very, very far from that regime. To a good approximation the voltage is the same everywhere along the cable, and there are no standing waves or reflections. Still, even very small amounts of jitter can sometimes be audible, so I suppose it's possible there is sometimes an audible effect in extreme cases, like very long cable runs. And yes Skunk, a properly designed DAC should be effectively immune to the levels of jitter we're talking about here in any case. Ok, the S/PDIF standard apparently doesn't work that way, but isn't it feasible for a DAC to put the received bits in the right place, based on its own (better) oscillator, and thereby protect against a certain amount of jitter? Or is that a different standard? Yes. Think about how the SB functions. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
Skunk;194616 Wrote: No need to be embarrassed. You could have argued that the DAC should be designed to reject the jitter anyway :-) Yeah - that was a close one! :-) Er, actually, isn't that feasible? Ok, the S/PDIF standard apparently doesn't work that way, but isn't it feasible for a DAC to put the received bits in the right place, based on its own (better) oscillator, and thereby protect against a certain amount of jitter? Or is that a different standard? -- chill chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
opaqueice;194622 Wrote: S/PDIF along a 1 meter interconnect is very, very far from that regime. Yes, it's much easier to see how an analogue signal, such as in an analogue interconnect or speaker cable (or better still, an RF cable) might be affected this way. opaqueice;194622 Wrote: Yes. Think about how the SB functions. Good point. -- chill chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
So, not knowing much about electrics and putting it simply, I take it that the BNC connection is a much better designed connection for maintaining constant electrical contact...? (rather than an RCA connection) I'm off to find one in the shed, hopefully to see why :) -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
Patrick Dixon;194629 Wrote: Hmm, so to a good approximation, are all the bits 1s or 0s ... or somewhere in between? Obviously they would all have to be the same as to a good approximation the voltage is the same. Not really sure how you tell the 1s from the 0s in that case, but hell, no-one can hear the difference anyway. Didn't opaqueice simply mean that a 'one' would have the same voltage anywhere along the cable? But since it is a binary decision (is this a 'one' or a 'nought' that I've received), there ought to be quite a tolerance on the voltage level anyway, didn't there? -- chill chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
Patrick Dixon;194629 Wrote: Hmm, so to a good approximation, are all the bits 1s or 0s ... or somewhere in between? Obviously they would all have to be the same as to a good approximation the voltage is the same. Not really sure how you tell the 1s from the 0s in that case, but hell, no-one can hear the difference anyway. Sorry, I thought my statement was suffciently clear, but apparently not. The good approximation is that the voltage is the same everywhere along the wire *at a given time*. Obviously it changes with time, but it doesn't depend on position along the wire. One way to see why that is to consider the time it takes an EM wave to travel down the wire - a few picoseconds - versus the inverse frequency of the signals being sent (typically 1000 ps). Imagine looking down at the ocean through a magnifying glass. You only see a little bit of water, so the height of the water doesn't vary across the part you can see, but of course it varies with time as waves pass by. So to a good approximation the part of the water you can see is flat, but moving up and down with time. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
opaqueice;194637 Wrote: So to a good approximation the part of the water you can see is flat, but moving up and down with time. But like surfers, the waves in the ocean aren't square. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
Skunk;194641 Wrote: But like surfers, the waves in the ocean aren't square. Neither are voltage transitions in a digital cable. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
opaqueice;194642 Wrote: Neither are voltage transitions in a digital cable. The relevant question is how square you can make them, and since the frequency here is far below the inverse transmission time, the answer is - pretty square. Are you sure? In _intro to digital audio_ (p107 fig 4.14), john watkinson graphs the effects of (random) sample clock jitter on various wordlengths. He notes that even small amounts of jitter can degrade a twenty bit converter to the performance of a good sixteen bit unit. There is thus no point in upgrading to higher resolution converters if the clock stability of the system is insufficient to allow their performance to be realized. .1 ns was the pk to pk jitter figure that looked audible between 8-20kHz on the 20 bit noise floor... Hopefully I'm not misinterpreting, because the math is over my head for sure :-) -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Speaker recommendations
I agree -- the Bose's are all hype, poor sound. The Aego's have gotten good reviews on this fourm. The AudioEngine 5's are another with built in amp, look great, are small, and sound great. I have one set and am getting a second. (Also, they are available in white or black) -- shadowboxer shadowboxer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8302 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34423 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Super Squeezebox Project
crooner;194401 Wrote: Now that I've seen the innards of the SB2, I'm a little weary of the massive modifications done by the well known outfits. The replacement caps often have long leads that are hard to dress on the PCB. I would venture the benefits of these high-performance parts are somewhat negated by the long leads. Has anyone checked the relative sound quality of a heavily modified SB (e.g. Boulder; SB+) compared with an SB2/3 and high quality DAC stage? -- Mark Scanlan MarkS Mark Scanlan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34291 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cardboard listening room
I wonder how it sounds. They probably put garbage speakers in it. It might have promise as a way to create a custom-tailored listening environment. It's also probably a good way to isolate the sound from the rest of the house. -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34415 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Super Squeezebox Project
Mark Scanlan;194653 Wrote: crooner;194401 Wrote: Now that I've seen the innards of the SB2, I'm a little weary of the massive modifications done by the well known outfits. The replacement caps often have long leads that are hard to dress on the PCB. I would venture the benefits of these high-performance parts are somewhat negated by the long leads. Has anyone checked the relative sound quality of a heavily modified SB (e.g. Boulder; SB+) compared with an SB2/3 and high quality DAC stage? Yes, IMO you get a better result with a good DAC. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34291 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
opaqueice;194637 Wrote: One way to see why that is to consider the time it takes an EM wave to travel down the wire - a few picoseconds - versus the inverse frequency of the signals being sent (typically 1000 ps). Imagine looking down at the ocean through a magnifying glass. You only see a little bit of water, so the height of the water doesn't vary across the part you can see, but of course it varies with time as waves pass by. So to a good approximation the part of the water you can see is flat, but moving up and down with time. This is not true, unless by a few you mean a few thousand. A signal moves down a wire at about 5 _nano_ seconds per meter, depending on the dielectric and the construction of the cable, and the signaling rate of the s/pdif is a transition per 177 ns, way more than 1000ps - we know what these quantities are! I think the reason jitter is so poorly understood is that we intuitively can not grasp quantities like picoseconds (trillionths) of a second. We are inclined to believe that a wire changes voltage instantaneously because unless we work with ghz scopes all day long, we are not accustomed to seeing a transition moving along a wire. Personally it has taken me many years of working with these kinds of quantities to get any sort of feel for such tiny units of time. The notion that s/pdif moves so glacially as to be unaffected by reflections is just nonsense. What you are saying is equivalent to claiming that wire has no resistance because a lamp glows just as brightly with one foot of wire as with a hundred. Just because you don't have an ohm meter, or you can't perceive the difference in brightness, doesn't mean it is not there! With suitable equipment (like what telecom engineers use, not hifi magazines) we can easily measure jitter and we can see how an s/pdif signal is affected by these things. It is just silly to speculate about these quantities when they are so easily measured. We can see how slower rise times yield more jitter, or how an impedance mismatch affects the waveform. And with a high frequency test tone played through a DAC we can see how levels of jitter as small as ~50ps can be observed in the output of the DAC. How much of this is audible is up for debate, but it's all real and observable. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
opaqueice;194637 Wrote: Sorry, I thought my statement was suffciently clear, but apparently not. The good approximation is that the voltage is the same everywhere along the wire *at a given time*. Obviously it changes with time, but it doesn't depend on position along the wire. This is one of those (rare) phenomena that can be easily quantified. The formula for the wavelength of a signal propagating along a linear conductor is v=fl, where v is the wave velocity, f is the frequency, and l is the wavelength. In a coaxial cable, v is about 80% the speed of light, or 240M m/s. The raw data rate (fundamental) on an S/PDIF cable for 44.1kHz sample rate is around 5.6 Mbit/s, which gives a wavelength of 43 metres. So, a 1 metre cable is short compared to the wavelength, but not totally insignificant. That's not the whole story, though, because it's not the data rate that matters, but the edge speed. Fast edges are desirable in this case because the faster the edge, the more accurately its position can be determined - and the lower the jitter. Data edges can easily contain harmonic components well over 100MHz, which have a wavelength comparable with the length of the cable. Transmission line effects aren't just significant - they completely describe the propagation of the signal. The Squeezebox does have a very clean digital output, with rise and fall times in the order of 10ns or so. Depending on the length and impedance of the cable, and how it is terminated, the receiver may see a nice, clean, monotonic edge, or it may see a waveform which is quite different. S-shaped edges which hover around the 10 threshold are surprisingly common, as are 'edges' which cross the threshold one way, then go back across it the other way, before finally crossing it again on the way up to the final voltage. All these cause problems recovering a low jitter clock. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Super Squeezebox Project
tomjtx;194657 Wrote: Mark Scanlan;194653 Wrote: Yes, IMO you get a better result with a good DAC. Interesting: - how about vs the Transporter? -- Mark Scanlan MarkS Mark Scanlan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34291 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Super Squeezebox Project
Mark Scanlan;194664 Wrote: tomjtx;194657 Wrote: Interesting: - how about vs the Transporter? SB of any type Lavry was quite good, I still slightly prefered the TP. I sold the Lavry. I don't think I would pass a blind test on that comparison, they are quite close. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34291 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Speaker recommendations
If you're willing to spend a bit more money, the Role Audio Sampan FTLs are tiny and great. And they don't require a sub. -- rblnr rblnr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4504 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34423 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Speaker recommendations
shadowboxer;194648 Wrote: I agree -- the Bose's are all hype, poor sound. The Aego's have gotten good reviews on this fourm. The AudioEngine 5's are another with built in amp, look great, are small, and sound great. I have one set and am getting a second. (Also, they are available in white or black) Have to agree about the Bose. I used to like them a lot - and still use them (in complete ignorance must be said). Then I was introduced to a couple of comparatives...oh my they have no midrange and the point of origin of the sound wanders around all the time. Oh Well. A couple of small BW (minitheatre)? http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.ranges/label/Range%20Mini%20Theatre Giacomo -- gbruzzo gbruzzo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3633 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34423 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
opaqueice;194637 Wrote: Sorry, I thought my statement was suffciently clear, but apparently not.Sufficiently clear, maybe. Sufficiently right, no! opaqueice;194637 Wrote: One way to see why that is to consider the time it takes an EM wave to travel down the wire - a few picoseconds ...I usually work on about a ns a foot - nice and easy to remember and close enough for most things. opaqueice;194637 Wrote: ... versus the inverse frequency of the signals being sent (typically 1000 ps).1000ps = 1GHz I think you may have your pico seconds (10 -12) and nano seconds (10 -9) confused. The point is, that whether on not the whole of the length of the interconnect is at the same potential for much of the time, some of the time, some of the interconnect will be at one potential and the rest at another - and that's the point that's interesting with respect to jitter. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
Skunk;194616 Wrote: No need to be embarrassed. You could have argued that the DAC should be designed to reject the jitter anyway :-) Cant argue there ;-) / -- jonte0 jonte0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11065 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Super Squeezebox Project
crooner;194401 Wrote: And thanks for your Super Regulator offer. I'd love to try one of those. What's the voltage output? I was thinking of using it in place of the switching 3.3 V supply. 3.3V is pretty marginal for an ALWSR - 5V is about the lowest recommended output voltage using the AD817, and 8V using the AD825. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34291 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
This could prove beeing an advantage - and its free - infact, you will save money and the nature :-D / chill;194543 Wrote: I'm curious about the mechanism for the sound improvement. Since you aren't using the SB3's analogue outputs, your SB3 is simply passing bits to your DAC, so the 2.4GHz interference must either be affecting the ability of your SB3 to handle those bits, or it is affecting the other equipment in your setup. If it's the latter mechanism, then perhaps we'd better switch off our wireless access points, and while we're at it chuck out our cordless phones, and our bluetooth mobile phones. -- jonte0 jonte0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11065 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
Trying that as we speak ! Deaf Cat;194570 Wrote: Don't forget switching psu's :) -- jonte0 jonte0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11065 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
opaqueice;194610 Wrote: That said, even a very sharp feature at 2.4 GHz would alias down to an extremely broad spectrum at audio frequencies, no? Broad yes, it sounds like white noise. Very loud white noise switched on briefly every 100ms or so, as each packet is transmitted. So it sounds like a fast click-click-click-click. I actually ran into this problem with our headphone chip, where if the right kind of headphone cable were connected, the cable would receive the transmitted RF coming from our external antenna and send it back into the unit, where the headphone amp would act as a radio, demodulating the RF and outputting the _envelope_ of the signal as clearly audible clicks to the headphones. A couple 22pf caps on the output effectively shunted the high frequency RF to eliminate the problem, but it was not easy to track down. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
I have one more I need to try - to galvanically separate the server (a Mac mini) and the SB3 by a transformer-. I don't want the computer ground polluting my music consumption :-D I wil try something from here: http://www.pulseeng.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=productfinder.ChartCategoryID=2026 / -- jonte0 jonte0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11065 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Speaker recommendations
darwinsmooth;194586 Wrote: Hi all, I want to setup my kitchen and am looking for recommendations for a good, compact set of speakers. My wife likes the small Bose ones - so something similarly unintrusive without the cost that I can plug the sqeezebox into would be welcome. I am looking at Acoustic Energy Aego M 2.1 atm. Any thoughts/experience appreciated. Hi, big picture here. Kitchen usually isn't a place where one really needs audiophile grade sound. Neither you will ever do any critical listening there - most likely elevator type, background music. And even then, you'll be asked to tone it down, 'people would like to talk' :). So, any of those will do. Go ahead and make your wife happy. K -- slimkid The sound stage will open up, bass will tighten and the imaging will improve. DVD performance will also increase substantially. slimkid's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8881 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34423 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
Or maybe there is a transformer on the ethernet input? seanadams, any info on that? BR / -- jonte0 jonte0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11065 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
Patrick Dixon;194632 Wrote: A BNC connector is designed to have an impedance that matches the transmission line (which in this case should be 75 Ohms). If you then design your driver and receiver circuits to be 75 Ohms, and use a 75 Ohm cable in between, you minimise reflections. By minimising reflections, you are better able to determine the precise point at which the digital signal goes from 1 to 0 or 0 to 1, which is what you use at the DAC to synchronise your clock. Cheers :D Another thought, when I purchased my Chord sig coax cable, I was informed that it was designed in such a way as to trick the signal that it was going down a 75ohm cable even though it has rca connections. This statement is clear, now that I understand why everything should be 75ohms, in the signals path. How it gets tricked is probably another story. -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Super Squeezebox Project
Patrick Dixon;194679 Wrote: But you haven't heard a SB+. True , I am still waiting for you to send me one :-) -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34291 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
AndyC_772;194698 Wrote: There is always an isolating transformer on Ethernet ports. OK - thanks! / -- jonte0 jonte0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11065 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
There is always an isolating transformer on Ethernet ports. -- AndyC_772 AndyC_772's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
seanadams;194661 Wrote: The notion that s/pdif moves so glacially as to be unaffected by reflections is just nonsense. What you are saying is equivalent to claiming that wire has no resistance because a lamp glows just as brightly with one foot of wire as with a hundred. Just because you don't have an ohm meter, or you can't perceive the difference in brightness, doesn't mean it is not there! With suitable equipment (like what telecom engineers use, not hifi magazines) we can easily measure jitter and we can see how an s/pdif signal is affected by these things. It is just silly to speculate about these quantities when they are so easily measured. We can see how slower rise times yield more jitter, or how an impedance mismatch affects the waveform. And with a high frequency test tone played through a DAC we can see how levels of jitter as small as ~50ps can be observed in the output of the DAC. How much of this is audible is up for debate, but it's all real and observable. Sorry - I typed that early in the morning and mixed pico with nano, as several have pointed out. It's not at all equivalent to a lamp with a long wire... What I said was not that there are no reflections, just that the S/PDIF frequencies are far below the transmission frequency and therefore reflections and impedance matching should be far less important than they are for transmission lines. There may still be a effect, but it should be quite small - and ps or even ns of jitter is a tiny effect in a 5 MHz signal. In any case, I really don't understand why it's so difficult to deal with these levels of jitter (which shouldn't come anywhere near to causing bit errors). It's trivial to design a DAC that is completely immune to input jitter - just record the bits in a buffer for however long you need to in order to deal with slight differences in average clock rates, and then play them out later, using a local clock. That might not be a convenient solution all the time, but it's a clear proof-of-principle. Why is it so hard to implement practically? -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
Yes it strange that it seems so hard. The only one I know of was a Mark Levinson DAC that did just that. Do some calculation and take the maximum clock offset allowed on s/pdif and also take into consideration that there migth be a single 75 minute track on a CD - in a bad combo of DAC/Drive klock difference one get into akward delays pushing the Play button (thats what I recall on top of my head anyway - it was 15 years since i did that math). Add that one need a good oscilator in the DAC also. opaqueice;194705 Wrote: Sorry - I typed that early in the morning and mixed pico with nano, as several have pointed out. It's not at all equivalent to a lamp with a long wire... What I said was not that there are no reflections, just that the S/PDIF frequencies are far below the transmission frequency and therefore reflections and impedance matching should be far less important than they are for transmission lines. There may still be a effect, but it should be quite small - and ps or even ns of jitter is a tiny effect in a 5 MHz signal. In any case, I really don't understand why it's so difficult to deal with these levels of jitter (which shouldn't come anywhere near to causing bit errors). It's trivial to design a DAC that is completely immune to input jitter - just record the bits in a buffer for however long you need to in order to deal with slight differences in average clock rates, and then play them out later, using a local clock. That might not be a convenient solution all the time, but it's a clear proof-of-principle. Why is it so hard to implement practically? -- jonte0 jonte0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11065 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
opaqueice;194707 Wrote: OK - that makes sense. And as you say it should be easy to deal with using a low pass filter, once the problem is identified. That may be OK on an audio output but how about a s/pdif output? -- jonte0 jonte0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11065 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
opaqueice;194705 Wrote: That might not be a convenient solution all the time, but it's a clear proof-of-principle. Why is it so hard to implement practically?Because the buffer is filling at nominally the same rate as it's emptying. If the buffer was capable of being filled much faster, and filling could be stopped and started (a bit like streaming over tcp), it's easy, but if you try to design a buffer for SPDIF you have to overcome the overfilling and emptying issues, or 'adjust' the read clock to compensate. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
Exactly and thats why feeding the DAC klock backwards as someone has done it in the DIY section is the way to go. Pity the s/pdif wasn't specifyed like this to begin with. Patrick Dixon;194712 Wrote: Because the buffer is filling at nominally the same rate as it's emptying. If the buffer was capable of being filled much faster, and filling could be stopped and started (a bit like streaming over tcp), it's easy, but if you try to design a buffer for SPDIF you have to overcome the overfilling and emptying issues, or 'adjust' the read clock to compensate. -- jonte0 jonte0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11065 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
jonte0;194711 Wrote: That may be OK on an audio output but how about a s/pdif output? Couldn't you still filter out the stuff above 1 GHz? Or maybe you would introduce just as much jitter by smoothing off the square wave as you would avoid by getting rid of the noise... what a pain. There's a reason why I'm not an engineer :-). Patrick Dixon Wrote: Because the buffer is filling at nominally the same rate as it's emptying. If the buffer was capable of being filled much faster, and filling could be stopped and started (a bit like streaming over tcp), it's easy, but if you try to design a buffer for SPDIF you have to overcome the overfilling and emptying issues, or 'adjust' the read clock to compensate. Right, well as jonte0 says you can easily check what's the worst possible case. But there are slightly more sophisticated ways that are quite easy to think of - for example if you can change the clock speed you can simply monitor the buffer and adjust when necessary. That's how the Lavry DA10 is supposed to function, although it appears not to. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
jonte0 wrote: Pity the s/pdif wasn't specified like this to begin with. It was, and is, designed as a cheap consumer level interface. Theoretical jitter problems and worries of Audiophiles were not in the engineer's design space. I'm not even convinced that it is as big an issue as some audiophiles claim it is. After all, CDs are perfect sound forever(tm) :-) -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
opaqueice;194720 Wrote: Couldn't you still filter out the stuff above 1 GHz? Or maybe you would introduce just as much jitter by smoothing off the square wave as you would avoid by getting rid of the noise... what a pain. There's a reason why I'm not an engineer :-). You've got it backwards! Filtering a s/pdif signal _increases_ jitter. Less bandwidth == slower slew rate == more uncertainty as to where it crosses the midpoint. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] PS Audio Digital Link III VS Benchmark DAC1
Pardon me if this has been discussed before. I'm about ready to take the plunge and buy a DAC for my SqB3. Both of these come highly recommended and I was wondering how people like them. The reviews on the PS audio product point to it being the 'warmest sounding DAC ever.' Of course, the Benchmark product has been highly regarded for some time and can double as a headphone amp. I am completely on the fence with this one. What say ye... o' Squeeze Box audiophiles? -- fezco fezco's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3855 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34436 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
seanadams;194722 Wrote: You've got it backwards! Filtering a s/pdif signal _increases_ jitter. Less bandwidth == slower slew rate == more uncertainty as to where it crosses the midpoint. That's exactly what I said. Filtering would remove the 2.4 GHz noise we were discussing, but would also induce more jitter by smoothing off the square wave, and therefore might not be a good idea: opaqueice Wrote: Couldn't you still filter out the stuff above 1 GHz? Or maybe you would introduce just as much jitter by smoothing off the square wave as you would avoid by getting rid of the noise... what a pain. There's a reason why I'm not an engineer :-). -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cardboard listening room
I'd imagine it is highly absorbent... not to mention flammable. -- fezco fezco's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3855 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34415 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] PS Audio Digital Link III VS Benchmark DAC1
fezco wrote: What say ye... o' Squeeze Box audiophiles? I loved me Benchmark, and even am not sure that my Transporter is better. The TP is better looking, better WAF, so that tipped me. If you want a slightly used and well loved DAC-1, let me know. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] So what are the 'audiophile camps' anyway?
cliveb;194546 Wrote: I respectfully disagree. If an LP master was used to cut a CD, it would sound far too bright, because of the treble boost that is added. No need to be respectful, I was wrong. Just say it ;) Perhaps it would be more accurate to that that if CDs were mastered like DVD-Audio or SACDs, they may sound just as good (or at least we'd finally be able to prove one way or the other!) I think that regarding the general theme, however, we're in agreement. Someone who prefers vinyl may actually be preferring quality mastering. Nothing about vinyl is inherently better. -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34379 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
opaqueice;194720 Wrote: for example if you can change the clock speed you can simply monitor the buffer and adjust when necessary.Yes - that's what I said. But if you adjust the DAC clock, you affect the conversion - which is what jitter does and is what introduces 'distortion'. opaqueice;194720 Wrote: That's how the Lavry DA10 is supposed to function, although it appears not to.As you say, apparently not. I guess he just couldn't get to to work properly ;-) -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] My 2 mods for coax digi out...
opaqueice;194727 Wrote: That's exactly what I said. Filtering would remove the 2.4 GHz noise we were discussing, but would also induce more jitter by smoothing off the square wave, and therefore might not be a good idea: I suppose one can estimate it like this: square waves have an amplitude of 1/n in the nth odd harmonic, so at 2GHz the amplitude from a 5MHz square wave is down by a factor of 40 or so. So at least very roughly, if the 2.4 GHz noise amplitude is larger than a few percent of the signal it might be worth it, otherwise not. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34406 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] PS Audio Digital Link III VS Benchmark DAC1
fezco;194726 Wrote: What say ye... o' Squeeze Box audiophiles? I'm afraid I'm not going to help you very much: I say Lavry DA10! JLM -- jlmatrat jlmatrat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10656 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34436 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] So what are the 'audiophile camps' anyway?
CatBus;194734 Wrote: No need to be respectful, I was wrong. Just say it ;) Perhaps it would be more accurate to that that if CDs were mastered like DVD-Audio or SACDs, they may sound just as good (or at least we'd finally be able to prove one way or the other!) I think that regarding the general theme, however, we're in agreement. Someone who prefers vinyl may actually be preferring quality mastering. Nothing about vinyl is inherently better. Well, I would think that one could argue that vinyl is inherently better in that analog reproduction is not limited to 44,100 samples per second. At a high enough sampling rate though, the argument falls apart, since there must be some sampling rate that is beyond human auditory perception (even through golden ears). -- jeffmeh jeffmeh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3986 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34379 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] So what are the 'audiophile camps' anyway?
jeffmeh;194743 Wrote: Well, I would think that one could argue that vinyl is inherently better in that analog reproduction is not limited to 44,100 samples per second. At a high enough sampling rate though, the argument falls apart, since there must be some sampling rate that is beyond human auditory perception (even through golden ears). Analogue forms of data storage are also limited in how much information they contain - it's just slightly harder to estimate. I saw a nice calculation once of the information capacity of LPs. It worked out that for the very first few plays of a new record, where apparently more high-frequency data is reproduced (much of it between 20 and 30 kHz, but never mind), the data capacity is comparable or even slightly greater than CDs, but after that the record wears out a little, loses the top end, and the data capacity is less (by a factor of a few, maybe, not by a huge amount). -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34379 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Vinyl better than CD?
jeffmeh wrote: I think that regarding the general theme, however, we're in agreement. Someone who prefers vinyl may actually be preferring quality mastering. Nothing about vinyl is inherently better. Most vinyl was mastered before the damn loudness wars. Or is mastered now, for the niche audiophile market. Well, I would think that one could argue that vinyl is inherently better in that analog reproduction is not limited to 44,100 samples per second. At a high enough sampling rate though, the argument falls apart, since there must be some sampling rate that is beyond human auditory perception (even through golden ears). It is generally admitted that 44.1kHz was a good but not great choice for a sampling rate. Serious pro audio guys (I think Bob Katz) say that 20 bits and 60kHz would have made all the difference. But 44.1kHz was picked for other reasons, just like 16 bits. No one believed that Red Book audio would be alive this long. RedBook would be gone if the idiots didn't start another format war. There is some good reason to expect that vinyl could have slightly better top end, and that could help hold down intermodulation distortion. But, and this is something that most vinyl lovers forget, very few cartridges can track even 20kHz. And the next set of high end cartridges shear off the plus 20kHz signal as they attempt to play it. This is a case where heavier tracking forces actually save your vinyl, as mistracking trashes the record itself very quickly. Vinyl mastering was and is an art. It is very interesting what they had to do. For example, songs with lots of bass had to have larger spacing between tracks, so you could not get as much music on a side. And if the levels were too aggressive, the cutter (let alone a playback cartridge) would jump out of the groove. The RIAA curve raises the gain of low frequency signals to compensate, but that increases the level of rumble, bearing noise, etc. Back then, the tradeoffs were well known to everyone associated, now we have loudness wars and clearly audible compression artifacts. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] So what are the 'audiophile camps' anyway?
Someone with more of a background in signals than I have can verify this, but I suppose the correct measure of the information capacity of an LP is given by Shannon-Hartley: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%E2%80%93Hartley_theorem#Statement_of_the_theorem If we (generously) take the bandwidth to be 30kHz, we just need to know the signal/noise for an LP to compute the capacity. Now we know that for a CD, the capacity is 44,100*16*2 b/s = 1.4 Mb/s, so to match that an LP would need a signal/noise ratio of about 10^14 (140 dB), which is totally unrealistic. If instead we take a S/N of a million (60 dB), we get a capacity of .6 Mb/s, or a bit less than half of CD capacity. And that's the theoretical best possible capacity given a bandwidth of 30kHz and 60 dB of S/N, both of which are pretty generous assumptions. So it seems that, at least at the level of theoretical information capacity, vinyl is considerably worse than CD - which really shouldn't be a surprise. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34379 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Super Squeezebox Project
Patrick Dixon;194682 Wrote: 3.3V is pretty marginal for an ALWSR - 5V is about the lowest recommended output voltage using the AD817, and 8V using the AD825. Thanks Patrick. I must not have read the manual carefully enough. Crooner, which switching supply were you going to replace? It may be more direct to add a small regulator to the caps at VDD and power them with a 5V superreg, if that's what you were wanting to improve (though I'm not positive it's even sound advice!) Another convenient 3.3V supply is the headphone section.. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34291 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] So what are the 'audiophile camps' anyway?
opaqueice;194753 Wrote: If instead we take a S/N of a million (60 dB), we get a capacity of .6 Mb/s, or a bit less than half of CD capacity. And that's the theoretical best possible capacity given a bandwidth of 30kHz and 60 dB of S/N, both of which are pretty generous assumptions. So it seems that, at least at the level of theoretical information capacity, vinyl is considerably worse than CD - which really shouldn't be a surprise. A couple of caveats to your calculations. 1) IIRC, a new Sheffield direct-to-disk LP had a signal-to-noise ratio of around 85dB. 2) LPs can have signal up to 30dB below the noise floor. There is no signal below the noise in a CD, but there can be plenty of signal below the noise on an LP, especially low level ambience cues. Using this figures, you'd need 115 DB signal to noise ratio for a CD to equal a new direct-cut LP. To back this up with an anecdote, I spent a lot of time a few years ago playing with digital recording of high-quality LPs. There was much more difference in sound quality between using 16 bit sample depth and 24 bit sample depth than there was between sampling at 48kHz and 96kHz. At the time, 96kHz sounded a tad better than 48kHz, but now my aging ears can't tell the difference. However, with a 24-bit sample depth, the digitized LP recording sounded indistinquishable from the LP. With a 16-bit sample depth, it sounded noticibly worse, you know, like a CD! One cool thing is that with a 24x48kHz recording of an LP, you can use digital noise reduction filters and get a result that is sonically superior to either the orignal (worn) LP or the equivalent CD. (I suppose that I should add that my turntable setup with phono preamp cost about $8000, so your mileage might vary.) And, might I say, thank goodness that the SB3 plays 24-bit material! Regards, Kim -- krochat -- SB3 (+linear) - Big Ben - TacT RCS 2.2X - 2xS2150 - Vandersteen 3a Signature + TacT W210 krochat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6579 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34379 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Speaker recommendations
disclaimer that I've become a dealer for these...but they've been talked about elsewhere on the forum, and IMHO are a great value at $349 for a powered pair of speakers to be used with a Squeezebox: www.audioengineusa.com -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34423 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] So what are the 'audiophile camps' anyway?
krochat;194760 Wrote: A couple of caveats to your calculations. 1) IIRC, a new Sheffield direct-to-disk LP had a signal-to-noise ratio of around 85dB. 2) LPs can have signal up to 30dB below the noise floor. There is no signal below the noise in a CD, but there can be plenty of signal below the noise on an LP, especially low level ambience cues. Using this figures, you'd need 115 DB signal to noise ratio for a CD to equal a new direct-cut LP. I'm a bit skeptical about counting those extra 30 dB below the noise... Shannon-Hartley is a theorem, full stop, end of story, right? I made a mistake above - I forgot a factor of 2 (for stereo) in my estimate of the capacity for LPs. So we can say it like this - if we assume the bandwidth of an LP is 30kHz * 2 channels, we would need 71 dB of S/N to match CD quality. However we're still being pretty generous here, since presumably people can only hear up to 20kHz or so. If we restrict to the audible range, it becomes very simple - the LP would simply need 96dB S/N to match CD. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34379 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cardboard listening room
I've seen furniture made from that stuff years ago. In the shop where the furniture was being sold there was a chair people could sit on for test/demo and in no time at all the corners were squashed and it looked like hell. If you'd spent the ridiculous price they were asking to outfit your living room with the stuff you'd end up throwing it all away in a week. Maybe THAT is the point of the stuff. It is someone's art project and that's all. Totally impractical for actual use. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34415 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Super Squeezebox Project
Well... I'm open to suggestions! I just thought replacing the internal switcher inside the SB2 would improve things a bit. Although in practice I can't hear any difference between the SB3 and SB2 digital outs going to my DAC60. Perhaps Patrick would like to enlighten us on the best place in the SB circuit to enable the Super Regulator. -- crooner SB2 SB3 with Custom Linear Power Supply Lite Audio DAC-60 Tube DAC VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34291 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Super Squeezebox Project
crooner;194401 Wrote: Also, enclosing the whole unit in a metal case will shield it against the magnetic fields surrounding it, such as those from the power supply itself or nearby components. This should also work the other way around, minimizing RFI/EMI energy radiation from the SB2 to other components... Unless you box it up in mu-metal, the metal case will not prevent magnetic fields such as those from that big power supply transformer from flying about. Metal shields are good for shielding against electric fields. The difference is that electric fields induce voltages (primarily) in high Z circuits through capacitive coupling while magnetic fields induce currents (primarily) in low Z circuits through, you guessed it- inductive coupling. That is one reason why I suggested using a power supply more in line with what the circuit actually requires. That big supply transformer has a much larger leakage field around it than a smaller one and the only practical way to shield it is to keep it as far away from the audio circuits as possible. This is why many resort to putting power supplies in boxes separate from the audio circuits. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34291 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Super Squeezebox Project
Good point! I'm definitely going for a two box approach as I stated in an earlier post. I will use a couple of enclosures from DIYenclosures.com. The power supply enclosure should arrive tomorrow. Should keep me busy this weekend :-) Yesterday, I was at my local dealer (Jeff's Sound Values) and the owner showed me a sheet of special material that's supposed to filter EMI/RFI emissions. This adhesive material can go inside the chassis or wrapped around certain parts such as analog and digital connections. It's non conductive. I forgot to ask the exact name of the thing, but I'll research it for my project. tyler_durden;194776 Wrote: Unless you box it up in mu-metal, the metal case will not prevent magnetic fields such as those from that big power supply transformer from flying about. Metal shields are good for shielding against electric fields. The difference is that electric fields induce voltages (primarily) in high Z circuits through capacitive coupling while magnetic fields induce currents (primarily) in low Z circuits through, you guessed it- inductive coupling. That is one reason why I suggested using a power supply more in line with what the circuit actually requires. That big supply transformer has a much larger leakage field around it than a smaller one and the only practical way to shield it is to keep it as far away from the audio circuits as possible. This is why many resort to putting power supplies in boxes separate from the audio circuits. TD -- crooner SB2 SB3 with Custom Linear Power Supply Lite Audio DAC-60 Tube DAC VPI Scout with Benz Micro Glider M2 Audio Research PH3, SP16L and VS110 Vandersteen 2Ce signatures, 2W subwoofer. crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34291 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] PS Audio Digital Link III VS Benchmark DAC1
Here's another vote for the Lavry. I love mine. -- Ben Diss 'SB3' (http://www.slimdevices.com/pi_squeezebox.html) - 'Lavry DA10' (http://www.lavryengineering.com/productspage_da_10.html) - 'BAT VK-31SE' (http://www.balanced.com/products/line/Vk-31SE/index.html) - 'Halo A21' (http://www.parasound.com/halo/a21.php) - 'BW 803D' (http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20803D) Ben Diss's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4289 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34436 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Speaker recommendations
I second Audioengine 5. I'm not aware of better sounding alternative for the price. They look nice either. -- 325xi simaudio nova cdp simaudio moon i-5 revel performa m20 via acoustic zen matrix reference ii and acoustic zen satori (system is currently in dormant state... in storage) sb3 audioengine 5 -planned additions:... deq2496 lavry da-10 ...- 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=34423 ___ audiophiles mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
