Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino wrote: iPhone;409297 Wrote: If you are going to use FLAC or some other lossless format and can afford the Transporter, keep it and enjoy the music instead of wasting time setting up incorrect/incomplete testing procedures. Not sure what prompted such an unpleasant reply. Oh, you get them in here. Par for the course really. A thick skin helps! snip Your ears are connected to your brain...really? I should keep that in mind before I go and perform that cochlear implant tomorrow morning. Lol. Priceless. I plan on using the TP to listen to music rather than gather audio engineer friends and break out the oscilloscopes to start measuring. Amen, brother. In conclusion, I believe the original post was a valid question about my experiences A/B'ing the TP and SB3. I was simply asking questions to refine my testing so that I could assess the two devices. Thus far, the majority of comments with the exception of yours seem to have offered decent advice so I'm clearly not wasting everyone's time. Thank you for your time regardless. Thank *you* for a superb riposte to a typical audiophile post. :) R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
ralphpnj;409303 Wrote: Man does my head hurt. After trying and trying to get some of my fellow audiophiles over at the Stereophile forum to see the light regarding music servers What light is that? Why do you feel such an overwhelming desire to convince others that your approach to audio source components is better than another? -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
cdmackay;409325 Wrote: Given these caveats, I can't really state anything more than a personal preference. The problem would come if I tried to make an absolute judgment about it. that's my problem with some of these discussions: we see quite a lot of these absolute statements. JezA;409330 Wrote: Nor will I try and argue there's no difference and you must be deluded. Or even be influenced by strange experiments done by the Boston Tea Society comparing 30 year old cups of tea. If I'm interested, I'll try the teas myself, and draw my own conclusions. What else can you do? My point is, I'm not about to join the Yorkshire Tea Forum and claim that Darjeeling is better based on casual drinking by me and my friends. I wouldn't present such perceptions as anything other than, well, perceptions. Why? The Yorkshire Tea lovers could point out, quite rightly, that such perceptions were caused by the water in my region, the non-standard way I prepare my tea, and so on. Or even my expectations given I know which tea I'm tasting. To unravel some of these conundrums requires a more rigorous test which accounts for them. These demands would seem reasonable to me. But I'm not interested in converting Yorkshire tea lovers, or selling Darjeeling, or writing professional tea reviews, so there is no hurry. In the meantime I'm able just to enjoy my tea. :) If I want to do any more than enjoy, though, I will need to dig deeper as to why my perception is what it is. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Laptop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 SB3 / Rio Karma / Laptop - JVC UX-C30 / Sennheiser PX-100 darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
better make sure the tea-cups are matched for level then. -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino: I think that a two channel audio system should be in balance. I believe that a financial ratio of 50% for speakers, 33% for amplification and 17% for sources is about right. I am very familiar with Aperian speakers and have purchased the 5T's for my daughter. They provide incredible value and performance at the price point of $1000/pair. They are especially well suited to Home Theater use. The Transporter sounds far better to me than the SB3. That said, I would save the price difference and apply the $1700 towards an eventual speaker upgrade. There are many free-standing DAC's that might provide better sound from your current SB3 into your 5T's that would cost less than a Transporter. I use a Channel Islands VPA.2 DAC in one of my bedrooms. It costs $599. Jim -- boxerboy boxerboy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5786 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
someone wrote: These blanket assertions of superiority of one source over another w/o some rigorous testing are quite invalid and boring. Robin Bowes wrote: I agree. Mainly because the language used is inevitably some thing like X blows Y away, or similar. For example, in this case: Audio Quality is stunning, and blows away the TP in all aspects in my opinion. Now, it may well be that the source in question is very good; I don't know, I've not heard it. But, we're talking about a digital source here. There's no way on earth that *any* digital source can blow away another. Just like the Transporter doesn't blow away the SB3; sure it's better sounding, if you have a sufficiently high-calibre system that can resolve the differences, but it's not night and day. Hell, I've got a v.old CD player (Marantz CD50SE - about 20 years old!) and yeah, both the SB3 and Transporter sound better, but the difference is not massive. R. I do not agree with your statement. Digital sources make the most meaningful difference in quality. You can never hear what's been lost. I don't disagree with that (even 11 months later). Deficiencies in digital sources are different than, say, speakers with a bumpy frequency response. They're often not immediately obvious to the listener, sometimes only becoming apparent after a longer period of listening. If the source doesn't bring it out, it doesn't matter what the amp and speakers do. I had a Linn Karik-Numerik a couple of years ago. I had friends bring over their CD players and I would leave the room during the comparison. Every time everyone in the room thought that the Karik-Numerik had a much more musical sound. Most of these guys were very skeptical and to a man and woman they were perplexed and amazed at how good a digital source could sound. That was easy money. But that's not just a digital source - it's a transport and D/A. I have a Duet and I really enjoy the ease of use and versatility. It doesn't sound as good as my CD player, but it's a lot easier to find the music I want to hear in my collection. I plan to buy a Linn DS player. They sound fantatic and leave you buried deep inside the music. The user interface from Linn is a different story, but I have seen some promising things from some of the third party developers. I have heard the Transporter, it has some very good qualities. It just doesn't get me involved in the music. Logitech has cool products, and they have done a lot to make good music available and easy to use. I still maintain that the difference between Duet/SB/Transporter/Karik digital sources when used with the same DAC (the Numerik, in your case) will be, at best, subtle. Sure, there may (will?) be differences but, as I said in my original statement, they will not be night and day. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
Luddites were people who tried to stop the dehumanizing aspects of technology. They were not opposed to technology, per se. The equivalent in an audiophile might be someone who embraces advances that actually advance high fidelity, but opposes the world being forced into 128 kbps MP3s whether we like it or not. I have an SB, a NAS, and a netbook to run SC. I have everything on FLAC and that is how I prefer to listen to my music. My CD's are pretty much just in storage. For portability I also have everything on 320 kbps MP3 so I can use my Ipod in my car. Both systems are great for what they are intended to do. I for one have no desire to go back to cassettes or 8-track. But they had their place in their time as well. -- regalma1 regalma1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6658 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Hello, The user interface from Linn is a different story, but I have seen some promising things from some of the third party developers Could somebody give me more info on that? I am just now deciding if a customer gets an akurate DS from Linn or a transporter from logitech. Usability is one of the biggest concerns. The idea is that he has the UI on his lcd Sony 40 inch screen. Linngui runs on a computer? So that would go on a display? What exactly is worse in Linngui than in SC7. Most important: What about album art / covers? Any chance to navigate by album art on that big screen vfia linngui? Iphone-like coverflow would be nice. ;) -- jaysung jaysung's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12375 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
boxerboy;409542 Wrote: El Duderino: I think that a two channel audio system should be in balance. I believe that a financial ratio of 50% for speakers, 33% for amplification and 17% for sources is about right. I am very familiar with Aperian speakers and have purchased the 5T's for my daughter. They provide incredible value and performance at the price point of $1000/pair. They are especially well suited to Home Theater use. The Transporter sounds far better to me than the SB3. That said, I would save the price difference and apply the $1700 towards an eventual speaker upgrade. There are many free-standing DAC's that might provide better sound from your current SB3 into your 5T's that would cost less than a Transporter. I use a Channel Islands VPA.2 DAC in one of my bedrooms. It costs $599. Jim Jim, thanks for the reply and the advice. The plan is for an eventual speaker upgrade. At this stage, I will continue to work with the 5Ts because, as you say, they do provide remarkable performance considering the cost. I do feel that they are revealing enough that one would expect to see some sort of an improvement between the Transporter vs. SB3. On the other hand, perhaps, it does take $5000 speakers to hear a difference... With regards to using a standalone DAC with the SB3, the thought has occured to me. However, I imagine a Transporter would have likely still been somewhere along my upgrade path, even if I were to use the $1700 to buy a new set of speakers today. Essentially, having purchased the new speakers, I would be left wanting a better source than an SB3/SB3+DAC...like a Transporter! I do agree that buying speaker first and source later would likely yield more immediate sonic benefits. You state that the Transporter sounded much better than the SB3 to you. I would be interested in understanding what parameters you felt were, specifically, improved--or was it more of an across the board thing? Thanks again. -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
Robin Bowes;409580 Wrote: someone wrote: These blanket assertions of superiority of one source over another w/o some rigorous testing are quite invalid and boring. Robin Bowes wrote: I agree. Mainly because the language used is inevitably some thing like X blows Y away, or similar. For example, in this case: Audio Quality is stunning, and blows away the TP in all aspects in my opinion. Now, it may well be that the source in question is very good; I don't know, I've not heard it. But, we're talking about a digital source here. There's no way on earth that *any* digital source can blow away another. Just like the Transporter doesn't blow away the SB3; sure it's better sounding, if you have a sufficiently high-calibre system that can resolve the differences, but it's not night and day. Hell, I've got a v.old CD player (Marantz CD50SE - about 20 years old!) and yeah, both the SB3 and Transporter sound better, but the difference is not massive. R. I do not agree with your statement. Digital sources make the most meaningful difference in quality. You can never hear what's been lost. I don't disagree with that (even 11 months later). Deficiencies in digital sources are different than, say, speakers with a bumpy frequency response. They're often not immediately obvious to the listener, sometimes only becoming apparent after a longer period of listening. I find the differences to be more important and obvious than speaker differences. If you are listening for musical performance criteria such as timing, pitch, vocal and instrumental delineation, and the ability to focus on an individual performance out of the group, then the difference in source (the Karik/Numerik was a source because of the specific clock tie-in between the components) is immediate and apparent. If the source doesn't bring it out, it doesn't matter what the amp and speakers do. I had a Linn Karik-Numerik a couple of years ago. I had friends bring over their CD players and I would leave the room during the comparison. Every time everyone in the room thought that the Karik-Numerik had a much more musical sound. Most of these guys were very skeptical and to a man and woman they were perplexed and amazed at how good a digital source could sound. That was easy money. But that's not just a digital source - it's a transport and D/A. The Karik/Numerik was a digital source because there was a special clock master/slave tie-in between the two that specific to them only. I have a Duet and I really enjoy the ease of use and versatility. It doesn't sound as good as my CD player, but it's a lot easier to find the music I want to hear in my collection. I plan to buy a Linn DS player. They sound fantatic and leave you buried deep inside the music. The user interface from Linn is a different story, but I have seen some promising things from some of the third party developers. I have heard the Transporter, it has some very good qualities. It just doesn't get me involved in the music. Logitech has cool products, and they have done a lot to make good music available and easy to use. I still maintain that the difference between Duet/SB/Transporter/Karik digital sources when used with the same DAC (the Numerik, in your case) will be, at best, subtle. Sure, there may (will?) be differences but, as I said in my original statement, they will not be night and day. R.My nights and days mean something different than maybe some others. I worry less about soundstage and speaker bumps. I am much more concerned if I can hear the way Coltrane began his entry into the piece and can I follow him through as I would at a live performance. A really good source frees up this level of information. You get the artist intention on how the piece was played in the hall or the studio from a performace perspective. Better amps and speakers can make this clearer and more interesting, but they can't bring any more information than what the source sends. -- WhatsNext WhatsNext's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=24839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
duderino, how are you level matching? Are you using your preamp to chanege the level or are you lowering the volume on the TP. You should set both the SB and TP to max volume and use the preamp to change the volume to match. You raise the noise floor if you use the digital volume and might also drop some bits depending on how low you go. My preamp can keep separate volume levels for separate inputs. When I compared TP to SB I thought there was enough dif to make it worth it. However these difs are much less than the difs between speakers. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
jaysung;409586 Wrote: Hello, Could somebody give me more info on that? I am just now deciding if a customer gets an akurate DS from Linn or a transporter from logitech. Usability is one of the biggest concerns. The idea is that he has the UI on his lcd Sony 40 inch screen. Linngui runs on a computer? So that would go on a display? What exactly is worse in Linngui than in SC7. Most important: What about album art / covers? Any chance to navigate by album art on that big screen vfia linngui? Iphone-like coverflow would be nice. ;)You are looking at two different levels of product both from usability and sound. Logitech does a much better job of usability with SC7 and the Squeezebox Controller. You have cover art, easier playlist, and more intuitive controls. You also have a lot more services and internet features. The Linn GUI is clunky and unfriendly. From a sound perspective the Akurate is better in almost every way. You should listen to them yourself, but I found the DS to be a lot more enjoyable to listen to. It also cost three times as much as a Tranporter. The Sneaky DS would be a better direct comparison from a price perspective. The Linn UI can run on a laptop or PDA. My DS dealer loves the Mac so he uses a third party UI designed for the DS that is available for the iphone/itouch. It's called Songbook and it supports cover flow and a host of other cool features such as easy playlist manipulation. You can look it up in the app store in iTunes. The Akurate DS does not support digital out, if thats important to you. The Logitech does. You would need to move down in the DS line if you want that feature. I like both for different reasons. If the UI is very important to you at the moment, then Logitech is the way to go. if you don't mind integrating third party products and spending more money, then the Linn will be a more musical experience. -- WhatsNext WhatsNext's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=24839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
tomjtx;409614 Wrote: duderino, how are you level matching? Are you using your preamp to chanege the level or are you lowering the volume on the TP. You should set both the SB and TP to max volume and use the preamp to change the volume to match. You raise the noise floor if you use the digital volume and might also drop some bits depending on how low you go. My preamp can keep separate volume levels for separate inputs. When I compared TP to SB I thought there was enough dif to make it worth it. However these difs are much less than the difs between speakers. Hi Tom. Level matching sources by playing a white noise sample through synchronized SB3 and Transporter and using a Radioshack sound meter to level match. I have the volume on the SB3 and Transporter set to fixed gain (ie at 100%) and adjust the volume on the preamp to volume match. Like yours, my preamp is able to store separate volume levels for separate inputs so it makes A/B comparisons pretty easy. I am sure that changing out speakers will make a significant difference. I plan on doing this down the road. I did find that the SB3 was somewhat fatiguing to listen to due to unrefined/harsh highs. That seems to have resolved with the Transporter. What subjective differences did you note between the SB3 and Transporter? -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
Some time ago I noticed a theme in some audiophile posts. My wife uses iTunes to fill her iPod. I don't use a computer for music at all. so I posted survey questions on the audioAsylum digital drive forum asking 1) if audiophiles used a computer to play music and 2) did any family member use a computer to play music or sync an iPod. Several people answered that they didn't use a computer for music playback but their wife did. Given the usual picture of high-end audio as a guy thing that wives and girlfriends ignored, I found this opposite theme to be amusing. I think that new functionality is leading to wide adoption of iTunes/iPod or the equivalent by a non-audiophile public. Some audiophiles are so narrowly focussed on better sound that they don't see the point. Bill -- Listener Listener's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2508 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
I'll just throw in my two cents on this subject. I auditioned the Transporter under their trial offer and ended up keeping my SB3 to use with a Lavry DA-10 external DAC. I could find no audible difference between them to justify keeping the Transporter. That was about two years ago and I've had absolutely no urge to change anything at the source end of my system since. The Transporter does have some flexibility that the SB3 does not, and it combines the receiver and DAC into one box. There is also the appearance issue; the Transporter simply looks like a more serious piece of equipment and that is certainly important to many people. The Transporter is certainly an excellent product, and by high-end audio standards, is still quite reasonably priced. I don't think you can go wrong either way. -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
Robin Bowes;409472 Wrote: Thank *you* for a superb riposte to a typical audiophile post. :) R. It was my pleasure. ;) -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino: I am going to share with you the way that I audition equipment. You are cerainly free to use other selections that you may find more in tune with your tastes. I have used the same four tracks to test different audio systems for several years. This enables me to establish a base line of expectations so that I can hear diferences when they occur. Each track offers sometihing different from the others. 1) Diana Krall - Love Scenes - Tack 1 All or nothing at all This track sounds good on almost any system. If it doesn't sound good, there may be something wrong with your set-up. 2) Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - Track 7 The Chain Listen for the high pitched guitar of Lindsay Buckingham; the deep bass of of the Bass guitar and the clear sounds of the bass drum and the cymbols. 3) Brad Mehldau - The Art of the Trio (Vol 3) - Track 1 Song-Song The three instruments should clearly be positoned on your sound stage. The piano should sound like a real piano. The bass should sound deep and authoritative. The drums should sound crisp and distinct. 4) Rimsky-Korsakov - Scherazade Track 1 The Sea and Sinbad's Ship This movement has great dynamic range. The loud sections shouldn't sound muddy. The violin solos should sound real. Set the volume up high to enjoy this music. I hope you find this useful. Jim -- boxerboy boxerboy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5786 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
Listener;409634 Wrote: Some time ago I noticed a theme in some audiophile posts. My wife uses iTunes to fill her iPod. I don't use a computer for music at all. I wonder if this is a 'macho' response. As in ...no I don't do it, but not because it is too techie (my wife can), but it is in fact a bit 'girlie' and I prefer a real man's back to basics approach... The implications being: - 1. Computer music is for lightweights (inadequancy complex). 2. Girls can't handle the real thing (stone age sexism). 3. You are a girlie for doing it (I'm a real man). 4. I must be superior to you, so my choice of music reproduction must be superior. (Mine is bigger than yours, if you've got one..) Ok, a wild extrapolation, but I've met the type at bike meets, hi-fi meets, in the pub etc. Paul -- BigEars BigEars's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6154 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
WhatsNext;409624 Wrote: You are looking at two different levels of product both from usability and sound. Logitech does a much better job of usability with SC7 and the Squeezebox Controller. You have cover art, easier playlist, and more intuitive controls. You also have a lot more services and internet features. The Linn GUI is clunky and unfriendly. From a sound perspective the Akurate is better in almost every way. You should listen to them yourself, but I found the DS to be a lot more enjoyable to listen to. It also cost three times as much as a Tranporter. The Sneaky DS would be a better direct comparison from a price perspective. The Linn UI can run on a laptop or PDA. My DS dealer loves the Mac so he uses a third party UI designed for the DS that is available for the iphone/itouch. It's called Songbook and it supports cover flow and a host of other cool features such as easy playlist manipulation. You can look it up in the app store in iTunes. The Akurate DS does not support digital out, if thats important to you. The Logitech does. You would need to move down in the DS line if you want that feature. I like both for different reasons. If the UI is very important to you at the moment, then Logitech is the way to go. if you don't mind integrating third party products and spending more money, then the Linn will be a more musical experience. There's a very good reason why the Akurate and Klimax don't have a digital out... It would undermine the entire point of the products - which are basically superdacs, with an ethernet receiver tacked on the front. I cannot imagine why anyone would buy one of these boxes and then want to connect them to other DACS (even if they could). It would the grandest waste of money. In point of fact the reason why I wouldn't buy one of them (and yes I've had lengthy demos of both) is that they have no digital loop-through for my TACT. I have heard enough ethernet transports now to conclude that - used PURELY as a transport - there is little if anything to choose between them. I couldn't justify a TP purely as a transport over an SB3. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Outdoors: Boom Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
One argument for the Transporter: It is able to play 96kHz files. As long as the most common way to get digital music is ripping standard CDs it's not a big advantage. But the more you can buy music online the more I would love being able to play the best quality offered. I'm extremely happy with my Duet/DacMagic but I just can't afford a Transporter. As you can see, I'm still convinced that a Transporter simply -has to- sound at least as good as a SB+DAC. And I experienced myself that a SB+DAC sounds better than a plain SB. No ABX-test, white noise or sound meter is needed. Would you really consider blind-testing scotch single malt vs. bourbon? ;-) -- Quad Quad's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
Quad;409695 Wrote: One argument for the Transporter: It is able to play 96kHz files. As long as the most common way to get digital music is ripping standard CDs it's not a big advantage. But the more you can buy music online the more I would love being able to play the best quality offered. I'm extremely happy with my Duet/DacMagic but I just can't afford a Transporter. As you can see, I'm still convinced that a Transporter simply -has to- sound at least as good as a SB+DAC. And I experienced myself that a SB+DAC sounds better than a plain SB. No ABX-test, white noise or sound meter is needed. Would you really consider blind-testing scotch single malt vs. bourbon? ;-) ...and a small counter-argument: 24/96 don't sound ANY different to 24/48... :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Outdoors: Boom Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
Phil Leigh;409699 Wrote: ...and a small counter-argument: 24/96 don't sound ANY different to 24/48... :-) Thats possible... never had the chance to try due to a lack of Transporter. ;-) Maybe there some serious testing would be appropriate. -- Quad Quad's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sound issue, Duet. Will an external DAC help?
Hey. Im not happy with the sound my Duet produce vs my CD-player. There is a huge difference in volume, details dissapair when playing flac rips using my Duet vs the org. CD, there is much more punch in my CD-player output. Whats strange is that i feel the sound gotten worse lately. I feel the difference was much less noticable before. Maybe a change happen when I upgraded to the lastest version of squeezcenter. Can this happen? I cant really find any settings to play with on my Duet. Ive tried changing and swapping cables, all is the same. I have ripped my cds using EAC and i think the files are ok. There was a period before i upgraded SC that my cd-player was not in use, 2-3 months maybe. Perhaps ive gotten used to the SB sound and didnt notice the big difference from the cd-player output. Now im a bit bumbed out, I really dont enjoy listening to the SB anymore. Its a shame, cause I love the interface and the features. So, do you guys think i might be better off with an external dac, like the ones from Beresford or Cambridge? Or could my problems be solved in any other way. Thanks. EF. -- efroy efroy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=29007 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61755 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino;409630 Wrote: ... I did find that the SB3 was somewhat fatiguing to listen to due to unrefined/harsh highs. That seems to have resolved with the Transporter. In my eyes :-) that's not a small feat. I have seen all kinds of phrases used to illustrate the quality of the transporter, but 'less fatiguing' might be the most important for me. That's the main reason I think you hear some differences between system components only after a relatively long listening period. E.g., several amps become very fatiguing after some days. As a classic music lover, 'realness' of instrument sounds are also very important to me. Here the listening period can be very short. A lot of components can be discarded after listening to a simple piano tune or a cello. (In my experience, all Class D amps -- except the very expensive ones like the Halcro -- turn a Steinway into an bad electronic piano. Lately I heard the first part of Bach's Goldberg variations played by Gould on two rather expensive Class D amps: it was terrible.) Teus -- Teus de Jong Teus de Jong's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15415 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sound issue, Duet. Will an external DAC help?
The internal DAC on the Duet is most definitely it's weakest point. Get external DAC, like either the Beresford or Cambridge you mentioned, and the sound will undergo a vast improvement and you'll love your Duet once again. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61755 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
jaysung;409586 Wrote: Hello, Could somebody give me more info on that? I am just now deciding if a customer gets an akurate DS from Linn or a transporter from logitech. Usability is one of the biggest concerns. The idea is that he has the UI on his lcd Sony 40 inch screen. Linngui runs on a computer? So that would go on a display? What exactly is worse in Linngui than in SC7. Most important: What about album art / covers? Any chance to navigate by album art on that big screen vfia linngui? Iphone-like coverflow would be nice. ;) You should check on the Linn forum - they have been working on a system that allows SC to control the Linn DS. When I looked, some time ago, you had to buy a 'sacrificial' SB (e.g. a Duet) and use the Receiver part and the Linn syncs to the SB. Thus you get all the benefits of the SC GUI, together with the sound of the Linn. It also worked for 24/192 files, IIRC. -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others SB+, dCS Purcell Elgar, Audion Pre, Welborne DRD 300B SETs, Lowther Big Fun Horns with PM6As adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sound issue, Duet. Will an external DAC help?
Can you provide some more information? Are you using the digital out or the analog out on the Duet? Do you have replay gain turned on? If using the digital out, what is the volume set at? We need some further information in order to help you. I would make sure you have everything set properly before spending the money on an external dac. -- Dean100 Dean100's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15157 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61755 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sound issue, Duet. Will an external DAC help?
An external DAC could of course help. But volume differences have nothing to do with a DAC. I'm confused about this volume difference part (the analog output of the duet is about the same as that of a normal CD player). Are you using replay gain? This is not a bad thing I use album gain all the time on my transporter), but it would mean that you have to play louder than with a CD player. Further, I would check if you're really listening to FLAC. Go to Settings, tab Advanced, at the drop down choose File types and look at the FLAC entry. It should be (this is in SC 7.4): FLAC: Native MP3: Disabled PCM: Disabled (this entry could be called WAV) Teus -- Teus de Jong Teus de Jong's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15415 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61755 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
iPhone;409297 Wrote: If you are going to use FLAC or some other lossless format and can afford the Transporter, keep it and enjoy the music instead of wasting time setting up incorrect/incomplete testing procedures. First, common sense should tell you that you are wasting your time as well as ours because the DAC chip, DAC circuits, power supplies, and analog output section in the Transporter are superior to the SB3 in every department! Second, your ears can't be trusted as they are connected to you brain that uses all available information at its disposal to make conclusions. You may ask if you're listening what other info is available? I will tell you, your eyes and any misconceptions, biases, or conclusions you have already arrived at. An Audio Engineer friend and I have proved this many times with an experiment we repeated many times with the exact same result every time. Bias and pre-conclusions win out over actual facts when one is depending on ones ears to form test results. Download the software that Phil and I have been using and eliminate the faulty part of your testing IE your brain, eyes, and ears. Third, if you don't already know that XLR Balanced outputs are superior to RCA outs, then don't bother wasting your time and ours. The SB3 has a 6.0Vpp RCA line level output and the Transporter XLR is 8.5Vpp so it had better sound louder into the same pre-amp line level input! Should it sound clearer and cleaner, it should, but because of the better DAC and accompanying circuits. Not the fact that XLR has more oomph. Again the ears are misleading the conclusions and the brain is making assumptions. Why are you so hostile? This user has great questions. IMO your logic is flawed on several points: First, common sense should tell you that you are wasting your time as well as ours because the DAC chip, DAC circuits, power supplies, and analog output section in the Transporter are superior to the SB3 in every department! That does not mean it's going to sound better on his system. Or if it does sound better , it warrants the the difference in price. The law of diminishing returns. And I think that is what he is trying to determine. Second, your ears can't be trusted. WTF? Then why not buy a transistor radio? If he can't tell the difference why spend $2K VS $300? Because someone else tells you it sounds better because it uses better parts? Third, if you don't already know that XLR Balanced outputs are superior to RCA outs, then don't bother wasting your time and ours. Your simply rude dude. -- sfraser 2 Chan. System SB3-Benchmark DAC-1- Bryston(BP-25,3B)-PMC TB2 Home Theater System SB2- Bryston(SP1,4B,4B,2B,2B)- PSB Stratus Goldi Basement System SB2- Parasound Preamp (carver M1.0t) -Klipsch La Scala's Bedroom System SB2- Sony BoomBox Rear Deck/Patio Duet- Yamaha Reciever- PSB Mini's, sfraser's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2026 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
JJZolx;409474 Wrote: What light is that? Why do you feel such an overwhelming desire to convince others that your approach to audio source components is better than another? I suppose that I was being a tad harsh but it's really not about my way or the highway, rather it's about investing large sums of money into a technology (physical CD playback) whose days are numbered. And before someone goes and states that people invest large sums of money on LP playback I want to state that LP playback is analog whereas CD playback is digital, as is all computer based audio. So I guess the light we're talking about is the light of progress. I would say the light of the future but last time I checked I could not predict the future. However, based on some very reasonable information one can make some generalized guesses about the future and the future appears to be pointing in the direction of hard drive based music storage and playback and away from physical media. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sound issue, Duet. Will an external DAC help?
I use analog out on my Duet, my amp dont have digital input. My setting was No Volume Adjustment. Ive tried track and album gain, i did not notice any difference. Volume on my Controller is turned to max, still it does not produce the volume i get when playing CDs. Settings - Advanced - File types show Flac native, MP3 disabled, Wav flac. -- efroy efroy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=29007 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61755 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sound issue, Duet. Will an external DAC help?
So turn up your amp? Sounds like a bug in the CD player to me. I would try doing a level-match comparison between the DAC in the Duet and CD Player (use an audio level meter with a white-noise CD track) before you decide that the output of the Duet is worse. I'm going to bet once you level the playing field (haha) that the Duet will be just fine, or better. -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61755 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
Quad wrote: meter is needed. Would you really consider blind-testing scotch single malt vs. bourbon? ;-) If you're ever in the area, let me know and we can find out :) ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Help with ampmatching - are these specs ok?
Hello again cyber, have you seen this? http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?topic=32763.0 -- Anne Squeezebox 3 Stereovox XV2 Bryston B100-DA SST Martin Logan Aeon I Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61156 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Wired vs. Wireless
I've been a satisfied SB3 user for over 5 years but still have problems with the wireless signal cutting out. I am considering running a 50' ethernet cable from my Verizon Fios router directly to the ethernet input of the SB3. Will doing this degrade the sound quality in any way and are there any recommendations for the set-up and type of cable. Any help is appreciated. -- dtash123 dtash123's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18186 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Wired vs. Wireless
dtash123;409798 Wrote: I've been a satisfied SB3 user for over 5 years but still have problems with the wireless signal cutting out. I am considering running a 50' ethernet cable from my Verizon Fios router directly to the ethernet input of the SB3. Will doing this degrade the sound quality in any way and are there any recommendations for the set-up and type of cable. Opening a can of worms... Some audiophiles feel quite the opposite - that using wireless introduces a source of RFI that is best avoided. Ethernet cable? Doesn't matter. Whatever Lowes or Best Buy or whatever you can find cheaper online will work all the same. If it's going to be visible, pick a color that you like. If it's not going to be run in the wall you want a flexible (stranded wires) patch cable with the plugs already on both ends. Don't fiddle with trying to crimp your own connectors onto patch cables. If it's going to be run in the wall then you'll want the stiffer solid core cable, Cat 5e or Cat 6. You can find small spools of it at Home Depot or Lowes, or else they may be able to cut custom lengths for you. Then you'll need two jacks for either end, a punchdown tool (a cheap one is a couple bucks or one may even be included with the jacks), wall plates or surface mount boxes, then two short patch cables for either end that will run from the jacks to your Squeezebox and network switch respectively. Do a Google search if you plan on running in-wall wiring. There are a lot of helpful guides. -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Wired vs. Wireless
There is no... NO ... difference in audio quality using wired vs. wireless. Enjoy. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Outdoors: Boom Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61758 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sound issue, Duet. Will an external DAC help?
I've a Cambridge Audio Dacmagic, which I use with a SB Duet. The Dacmagic is superb,effortlessly listenable to; the SB on it's own is just not really very good at all; squashed, congested, harsh.. fine for the money, possibly, but the Dacmagic puts it and you in a whole different league. -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61755 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
ralphpnj;409768 Wrote: So I guess the light we're talking about is the light of progress. If you had expressed the same amount of enthusiasm for something like set amplifiers as the only way to go, it would not have produced the wave of defensive posts. I've seen lots of threads like that on the audioasylum digital drive forum. Some posters express their personal reasons for not taking the plunge as universals that prove that this new stuff is not a sensible choice for anyone. Refuting their arguments just makes them dig in their heels. Hard to admit that the world is passing you by. Your wife is going modern and your kids have been with it since they could walk. Bill -- Listener Listener's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2508 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
Listener;409838 Wrote: Hard to admit that the world is passing you by. Your wife is going modern and your kids have been with it since they could walk. I just love those two sentences - says it all very nicely. -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
boxerboy;409662 Wrote: El Duderino: I am going to share with you the way that I audition equipment. You are cerainly free to use other selections that you may find more in tune with your tastes. I have used the same four tracks to test different audio systems for several years. This enables me to establish a base line of expectations so that I can hear diferences when they occur. Each track offers sometihing different from the others. 1) Diana Krall - Love Scenes - Tack 1 All or nothing at all This track sounds good on almost any system. If it doesn't sound good, there may be something wrong with your set-up. 2) Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - Track 7 The Chain Listen for the high pitched guitar of Lindsay Buckingham; the deep bass of of the Bass guitar and the clear sounds of the bass drum and the cymbols. 3) Brad Mehldau - The Art of the Trio (Vol 3) - Track 1 Song-Song The three instruments should clearly be positoned on your sound stage. The piano should sound like a real piano. The bass should sound deep and authoritative. The drums should sound crisp and distinct. 4) Rimsky-Korsakov - Scherazade Track 1 The Sea and Sinbad's Ship This movement has great dynamic range. The loud sections shouldn't sound muddy. The violin solos should sound real. Set the volume up high to enjoy this music. I hope you find this useful. Jim Jim, much appreciated. I will try and acquire a few of the above albums and give them a good listen. I have a fairly eclectic mix of music crossing multiple genres including blues, jazz, rock, reggae, electronic and hip-hop. I do not have a significant collection of classical music...yet. Teus de Jong;409712 Wrote: In my eyes :-) that's not a small feat. I have seen all kinds of phrases used to illustrate the quality of the transporter, but 'less fatiguing' might be the most important for me. That's the main reason I think you hear some differences between system components only after a relatively long listening period. E.g., several amps become very fatiguing after some days. Teus Absolutely and I am not underplaying this strength of the Transporter. The non-fatiguing nature of the Transporter vs the SB3 in my setup--regardless of the underlying mechanism--may, alone, be enough to convince me to keep the Transporter. I appreciate all the input thus far. This thread is evolving in a fairly interesting manner... -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Luddites, er I mean audiophiles
Well, I think I must be a Luddite... Tho I do load the wife's iPODs. I very much enjoy what comes off of the big black discs. I occasionally even hook up the LD player and the BetaMax! http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=404340postcount=928 -- alZmtbr alZmtbr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8773 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61715 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
