Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
audiomuze;542825 Wrote: Please could you share the titles so that I can avoid inadvertently acquiring them in my travels? I don't have access to my library at present, but I seem to recall the DVD-Audio of Eagles - Hotel California is one of them. You will never learn to truly enjoy music thinking that way. I was gonna say this is too funny. But serioulsy it's sad that you're misunderstanding the insignificance of this level of clipping. Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
audiomuze;542825 Wrote: Please could you share the titles so that I can avoid inadvertently acquiring them in my travels? I don't have access to my library at present, but I seem to recall the DVD-Audio of Eagles - Hotel California is one of them. Yes - Fragile is the only one that I have that is really badly mastered... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
I thought I would just follow this thread rather than continue to contribute, but I'm having trouble understanding the various viewpoints now... and we seem to have moved on to a discussion of clipping which different people seem to define in different ways?. My view is: 1) getting tracks that peak at 0dB is good - but what really matters is the desired relative energy (perceived loudness) of the track as whole - peaks need to be studied to understand their nature - what causes them and what treatment if any do they require 2) getting tracks that clip (ie want to carry a sample value greater than 0dB but obviously can't) is bad 3) there are several ways to avoid clipping 4) It is often the case that in a track at mixdown you can end up with a handful of samples that would exceed 0dB if you didn't do something. If you force THOSE samples below 0dB (limit or compress them, manually or via software/hardware) the average energy of the track can be preserved, which is important as this track needs to be (relatively) level balanced against the other tracks and you don't want to restrict the dynamic range on the whole album just because of one track... 5)You probably won't see many tracks with the characteristics of 4 above in the wild because they will have been dealt with in mastering... 6)using digital clipping to achieve 4 is the worst/laziest way of doing it 7)It IS true that you won't hear digital clipping if it only affects a handful of sporadic samples across a track 8)The progressive limiting on the Hurt track is an artistic choice - it enables the song to build to a more intense climax before the resolution. This is NOT poor production! 9) Hotel California is a great-sounding DVD-A. The title track contains a magic moment at 3:28 where the whole track is subject to a hard -40dB fade-to-black giving the effect of silence - at this point the LSB's are ruthlessly exposed! Given that the snare drums are peaking at 0dB, this means that - taken as a whole - this is one of the few tracks that actually exploits nearly the full available dynamic range (actually SNR)... On a casual listen it sounds like they muted the main bus @ 3:28 - but examine that region carefully and you'll see that isn't what they did! 10) as a final experiment, I set up my two (unused) SB3's synced with their s/pdifs into 2 s/pdif inputs on my 5103. One was set too max vol, the other to vol=80. The amp inputs were then calibrated to compensate (the 5103 lets you programme gain in 1dB steps). I downsampled the Hotel California track to 24/48 with SOX. Switching between the inputs reveals no audible difference to me. Recording the output from the 5103 (via its DAC and tape out) and diffing them reveals an expected increase in noise floor but otherwise no difference. Even at 3:28 you can't hear the noise floor increase... So to conclude, I have no idea what you guys that insist on vol=max are hearing (or not hearing?) but I can't recreate it here. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;542833 Wrote: Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at you. I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant listening experience. -- audiomuze 'Cable break-in is real, and occurs between the ears of the listener - nowhere else (most certainly not in the cable).' (http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm) '*last.fm*' (http://www.last.fm/user/audiomuze) audiomuze's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33613 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
On 03/05/10 09:41, audiomuze wrote: mswlogo;542833 Wrote: Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. O On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at you. I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant listening experience. I think what this demonstrates is that some folk prefer a compressed sound while others prefer a more natural sound. This is personal preference. I prefer the latter; mswlogo seems to prefer the former. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
audiomuze;542857 Wrote: On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at you. I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant listening experience. Then I would have a closer look at your system than the disks. I am never tempted to turn it down. I have 18 amps, 18 DACs, one for every frequency/single driver. It sounds like heaven. I have about 20 DVDAs but I don't own Fragile. Stay away from blue-man group. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Robin Bowes;542877 Wrote: On 03/05/10 09:41, audiomuze wrote: mswlogo;542833 Wrote: Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. O On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at you. I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant listening experience. I think what this demonstrates is that some folk prefer a compressed sound while others prefer a more natural sound. This is personal preference. I prefer the latter; mswlogo seems to prefer the former. R. Now we are discussing personal taste! - I find the Mo-Fi boring by comparison - each to their own. I doubt any of us would mix/master any given album identically... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;542853 Wrote: I thought I would just follow this thread rather than continue to contribute, but I'm having trouble understanding the various viewpoints now... and we seem to have moved on to a discussion of clipping which different people seem to define in different ways?. My view is: 7)It IS true that you won't hear digital clipping if it only affects a handful of sporadic samples across a track. I agree with most of your points. Your point here is all I was saying when folks jumped all over it because they ran out of ideas in explaining why ditgital attenution doesn't cost anything. Your right it may be one track in an album. Or few. It's worth losing skeep over. If I see a whole album with say 3dB or more headroom. I concider that being lazy. Than clipping few audible peaks because they don't it that close by accident. Re: Topic of attenuation. if your happy with 14bits at 80 volume. All the power to ya. That test that was posted says it all. Some ears/systems may not notice it but others will. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Robin Bowes;542877 Wrote: On 03/05/10 09:41, audiomuze wrote: mswlogo;542833 Wrote: Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. O On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at you. I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant listening experience. I think what this demonstrates is that some folk prefer a compressed sound while others prefer a more natural sound. This is personal preference. I prefer the latter; mswlogo seems to prefer the former. R. To be really picky, unless you are talking about a crossed-pair 2-track recording (or a soundfield job) in a real ambience with no EQ, reverb etc there is no natural... there is just engineered... :-) Most people wouldn't like the natural (untreated) sound of a pop/rock band without EQ and (especially) compression! And before anyone says What about the Beatles? - their early recordings have all manner of EQ, compression etc on them - much of it enforced by the microphones, mixing consoles, guitars, amplifiers and tape decks of the day - you couldn't get a neutral sound to build from so you had to work round that. The reason they sound good? - a lot of care was taken in the performance, recording, mixing and mastering. This was a long time before the fix it in the mix mentality became popular... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Robin Bowes;542877 Wrote: On 03/05/10 09:41, audiomuze wrote: mswlogo;542833 Wrote: Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. O On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at you. I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant listening experience. I think what this demonstrates is that some folk prefer a compressed sound while others prefer a more natural sound. This is personal preference. I prefer the latter; mswlogo seems to prefer the former. R. To be really picky, unless you are talking about a crossed-pair 2-track recording (or a soundfield job) in a real ambience with no EQ, reverb etc there is no natural... there is just engineered... :-) Most people wouldn't like the natural (untreated) sound of a pop/rock band without EQ and (especially) compression! And before anyone says What about the Beatles? - their early recordings have all manner of EQ, compression etc on them - much of it enforced by the microphones, mixing consoles, guitars, amplifiers and tape decks of the day - you couldn't get a neutral sound to build from so you had to work round that. The reason they sound good? - a lot of care was taken in the performance, recording, mixing and mastering. This was a long time before the fix it in the mix mentality became popular... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;542880 Wrote: I agree with most of your points. Your point here is all I was saying when folks jumped all over it because they ran out of ideas in explaining why ditgital attenution doesn't cost anything. Your right it may be one track in an album. Or a few. It's not worth losing skeep over. If I see a whole album with say 3dB or more headroom. I consider that being lazy. Than clipping a few inaudible peaks because they didn't cut it that close by accident. Re: Topic of attenuation. if you're happy with 14bits at 80 volume. All the power to ya. That test that was posted says it all. Some ears/systems may not notice it but others will. I think we are close (ish) to agreeing. (24-bit) Digital Attenuation costs SNR (nothing else). Can you hear 10-20dB of it? Depends on several things but predominantly it depends on the average energy level of the track - if it is a very quiet track you MIGHT hear the increased noise floor relative to the track content. On a track with 0dB peaks and an average level -40dB... I can't. Fortunately that's 99.9% of my collection - I'm still looking for ones that might meet these criteria. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
On 03/05/10 12:16, Phil Leigh wrote: To be really picky, unless you are talking about a crossed-pair 2-track recording (or a soundfield job) in a real ambience with no EQ, reverb etc there is no natural... there is just engineered... :-) Yes, that's true, but some recordings can sound more natural than others. Most people wouldn't like the natural (untreated) sound of a pop/rock band without EQ and (especially) compression! Also true, and I'm not suggesting that I don't like pop/rock bands that use compression - far from it! I don't, for example, expect a natural sound from AC/DC or Jimi Hendrix :) And before anyone says What about the Beatles? - their early recordings have all manner of EQ, compression etc on them - much of it enforced by the microphones, mixing consoles, guitars, amplifiers and tape decks of the day - you couldn't get a neutral sound to build from so you had to work round that. The reason they sound good? - a lot of care was taken in the performance, recording, mixing and mastering. This was a long time before the fix it in the mix mentality became popular... The reason they sound good? Because they were damned good songs, perfectly arranged. I have some Beatles multitracks, ie. copies of the 4-track used before mixdown and it's plain to hear that not a lot is done in the mix - all the good stuff is on the tape. Funnily enough, on Friday night I popped in to a local pub who had a Beatles/60s tribute band playing. They were basically just 4 blokes in their 50s, average musicians - 4-piece, drums, bass, 2 x guitar, three vox singing the harmonies. The Beatles songs sounded simply superb. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;542777 Wrote: Because if it was 50% of the log scale that would be 48dB and I assure you the SqueezeBox DAC would not output the low 16bits of the DAC that well. Totally misleading. No, it is 0.5db reduction per step downwards from 100 (0db) to 1 (-49.5db) then at 0 silence. mswlogo;542880 Wrote: I agree with most of your points. Your point here is all I was saying when folks jumped all over it because they ran out of ideas in explaining why ditgital attenution doesn't cost anything. Your right it may be one track in an album. Or a few. It's not worth losing skeep over. If I see a whole album with say 3dB or more headroom. I consider that being lazy. Than clipping a few inaudible peaks because they didn't cut it that close by accident. Re: Topic of attenuation. if you're happy with 14bits at 80 volume. All the power to ya. That test that was posted says it all. Some ears/systems may not notice it but others will. Your calculations are wrong. 50 volume is -25db (not -48db). Do your calculations all over again and (not that I have to tell you this) get back to us. Let's see once you re-do your calculations whether your opinion is just the same. I know what I'm betting. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Robin Bowes;542890 Wrote: On 03/05/10 12:16, Phil Leigh wrote: To be really picky, unless you are talking about a crossed-pair 2-track recording (or a soundfield job) in a real ambience with no EQ, reverb etc there is no natural... there is just engineered... :-) Yes, that's true, but some recordings can sound more natural than others. Most people wouldn't like the natural (untreated) sound of a pop/rock band without EQ and (especially) compression! Also true, and I'm not suggesting that I don't like pop/rock bands that use compression - far from it! I don't, for example, expect a natural sound from AC/DC or Jimi Hendrix :) And before anyone says What about the Beatles? - their early recordings have all manner of EQ, compression etc on them - much of it enforced by the microphones, mixing consoles, guitars, amplifiers and tape decks of the day - you couldn't get a neutral sound to build from so you had to work round that. The reason they sound good? - a lot of care was taken in the performance, recording, mixing and mastering. This was a long time before the fix it in the mix mentality became popular... The reason they sound good? Because they were damned good songs, perfectly arranged. I have some Beatles multitracks, ie. copies of the 4-track used before mixdown and it's plain to hear that not a lot is done in the mix - all the good stuff is on the tape. Funnily enough, on Friday night I popped in to a local pub who had a Beatles/60s tribute band playing. They were basically just 4 blokes in their 50s, average musicians - 4-piece, drums, bass, 2 x guitar, three vox singing the harmonies. The Beatles songs sounded simply superb. R. Don't disagree with any of this... my Beatles point was that the multi-tracks are inherently pre-eq'd by the nature of the equipment in use at the time (ie it wasn't a bunch of post-recording FX). Also they didn't have the luxury of digital reverb and spring/tank reverb had to be used sparingly... Those Abbey Road guys in lab coats who wouldn't let the meters into the red - they knew what they were doing... Yes of course the songs were well written/arranged/produced - that always helps cover over any technical issues :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Robin Bowes;542877 Wrote: I think what this demonstrates is that some folk prefer a compressed sound while others prefer a more natural sound. This is personal preference. I prefer the latter; mswlogo seems to prefer the former. R.That's probably what what it is. As I mostly listen to albums I've usually got replaygain disabled, so when you get to something that's lot louder than what you've just been listening to it's rather jarring. OTOH, I find the LPCM DVD rip of When Hell Freezes Over to be a great listen - definitely not overbearing, lots of subtlety and plenty headroom to really turn it up if you're in the mood. -- audiomuze 'Cable break-in is real, and occurs between the ears of the listener - nowhere else (most certainly not in the cable).' (http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm) '*last.fm*' (http://www.last.fm/user/audiomuze) audiomuze's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33613 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;542878 Wrote: Then I would have a closer look at your system than the disks.I'm quite confident the problem lies neither in my system nor my listening environment. Like Robin says, I think it's down to personal preference. I tend not to like compressed music, but that doesn't mean that I don't turn it up myself when the mood strikes me. -- audiomuze 'Cable break-in is real, and occurs between the ears of the listener - nowhere else (most certainly not in the cable).' (http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm) '*last.fm*' (http://www.last.fm/user/audiomuze) audiomuze's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33613 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh wrote: Don't disagree with any of this... my Beatles point was that the multi-tracks are inherently pre-eq'd by the nature of the equipment in use at the time Cute phrase. That is what all the knobs on studio consoles are for, many of them are a per-track EQ. You setup the EQ and hit record. Perhaps a few guys would ride the EQ, but most of the time it was set and left alone. The big point about Beatles era recording was that it was done to tape, and all analog tape has a built in soft limit, hit it too hard, and it doesn't go all square wave, it just gets nearly flat. Using the natural roll off of an analog tape was part of the art of audio engineering. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
pfarrell;542969 Wrote: Phil Leigh wrote: Don't disagree with any of this... my Beatles point was that the multi-tracks are inherently pre-eq'd by the nature of the equipment in use at the time Cute phrase. That is what all the knobs on studio consoles are for, many of them are a per-track EQ. You setup the EQ and hit record. Perhaps a few guys would ride the EQ, but most of the time it was set and left alone. The big point about Beatles era recording was that it was done to tape, and all analog tape has a built in soft limit, hit it too hard, and it doesn't go all square wave, it just gets nearly flat. Using the natural roll off of an analog tape was part of the art of audio engineering. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ Ah - the happy days when I traded my 32-channel analogue desk and twin 8-track machines for a 32-channel digital desk with full automation and unlimited channels of 24/48 DAW... In hindsight it wasn't progress - it was a VERY expensive mistake. I used to use a tape-head saturation emulation plugin, but it wasn't as good... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
pfarrell;542969 Wrote: Phil Leigh wrote: Don't disagree with any of this... my Beatles point was that the multi-tracks are inherently pre-eq'd by the nature of the equipment in use at the time Cute phrase. That is what all the knobs on studio consoles are for, many of them are a per-track EQ. You setup the EQ and hit record. Perhaps a few guys would ride the EQ, but most of the time it was set and left alone. The big point about Beatles era recording was that it was done to tape, and all analog tape has a built in soft limit, hit it too hard, and it doesn't go all square wave, it just gets nearly flat. Using the natural roll off of an analog tape was part of the art of audio engineering. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ Ah - the happy days when I traded my 32-channel analogue desk and twin 8-track machines for a 32-channel digital desk with full automation and unlimited channels of 24/48 DAW... In hindsight it wasn't progress - it was a VERY expensive mistake. I used to use a tape-head saturation emulation plugin, but it wasn't as good... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;542665 Wrote: A good mixer will see if he let's a *FEW* (not ONE but a few) NARROW (beyond human hearing) fringe peaks clip a little then he can get more dynamic range Working within the context of a defined word length, allowing clipping does NOT give you more dynamic range. If you're mastering for 16 bit PCM, you have 96dB of dynamic range to play with - pushing levels so things clip doesn't change this. *IF* your programme material is such that it requires more dynamic range than your word length provides, *THEN* it may be appropriate to allow a very modest amount of clipping in order to get the lower end of the recording into the bottom bits. (Although in most (all?) cases applying some soft peak limiting would be preferable to simple clipping). But I contend that no real world recording actually requires anything like 96dB of dynamic range. Even the fade out of Neptune from The Planets can probably get away with just 70dB. As far as I can see there is never any justification to impose peak limiting or clipping on an actual CD release. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh wrote: Ah - the happy days when I traded my 32-channel analogue desk and twin 8-track machines for a 32-channel digital desk with full automation and unlimited channels of 24/48 DAW... In hindsight it wasn't progress - it was a VERY expensive mistake. Would it still be a mistake today? I know it was VERY expensive, but the modern ADC and DAW workstations seem to have recovered from most of the early digital evilness. Well, 24/48 smells of ADAT, which has thankfully been obsolete for nearly all of this century. To my ears, current 24/88.2 stuff sounds fine. Those old 24 and 32 track desks were expensive to maintain themselves. Too many moving parts, issues with alignment and bias I used to use a tape-head saturation emulation plugin, but it wasn't as good... Funny how the emulations don't seem to match up with the old LA-2 compressors and tape saturation. I would think that it could be perfectly matched with enough DSP power. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;542897 Wrote: No, it is 0.5db reduction per step downwards from 100 (0db) to 1 (-49.5db) then at 0 silence. Your calculations are wrong. 75 volume is -12.5db (not -24db) and so 80 volume is -10db. Do all your calculations again and (not that I have to tell you this) get back to us. Let's see afterwards whether your opinion is just the same. I know what I'm betting. Darren Sorry but I think you're reading it all wrong. If you were right that would be even WORSE !! Because at 75% they said they get 75dB Dynamic Range (instead of ideally 96dB). So for 2-bits of attenuation (12.5dB as you say) they lose 24dB of dynamic range (4-bits). I know it's not THAT bad. That is a very old article when SqueezeBox didn't use the 0-100 scale. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543002 Wrote: Sorry but I think you're reading it all wrong. If you were right that would be even WORSE !! Because at 75% they said they get 75dB Dynamic Range (instead of ideally 96dB). So for 2-bits of attenuation (12.5dB as you say) they lose 24dB of dynamic range (4-bits). I know it's not THAT bad. That is a very old article when SqueezeBox didn't use the 0-100 scale. Hi mswlogo, If I look at the original link (http://mysite.verizon.net/forumwebspace/RightMark/Test%20Reports/Volume.htm) I can't see where 75db is mentioned (except 75.8db, under volume 20 or what they call 50%). The point is that at 80 volume on Squeezebox you're dropping about 10db or less than 2 bits. mswlogo;542880 Wrote: Re: Topic of attenuation. if you're happy with 14bits at 80 volume. All the power to ya. That test that was posted says it all. Some ears/systems may not notice it but others will. Where do you get 14 bits from? The original 16 have descended less than 2 bits - they're sitting comfortably in the middle of the 20 bits a good DAC can resolve. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543041 Wrote: Hi mswlogo, If I look at the original link (http://mysite.verizon.net/forumwebspace/RightMark/Test%20Reports/Volume.htm) I can't see where 75db is mentioned (except 75.8db, under volume 20 or what they call 50%). The point is that at 80 volume on Squeezebox you're dropping about 10db or less than 2 bits. Where do you get 14 bits from? The original 16 have descended less than 2 bits - they're sitting comfortably in the middle of the 20 bits a good DAC can resolve. Darren Correct in that example Volume 20 has has 75.8dB of dynamic range. They also note that Volume 20 is 50%. I believe translating that, that would mean 50% of the 0-96dB scale. Or in other words 48dB of attenuation. 8bits of attenuation. For the Volume 30 case. They list that as 75%. Which is the closest value to your example of 80. You you will get close to the performance of Volume 30. At volume 30 you get approx 88dB dynamic range. 2-bits lost at 75% volume. If you want to extrapolate you'd lose something like 1.8bits at 80%. My assuming 0 to 40 on the old squeezebox maps roughly to 0 to 96dB or 0 to 100 on newer SQueezeBoxes means I'm assuming a very agressive log scale in that test. If that old scale is any less agressive (meaning they are attenuating even less for the same amount of dynamic range loss) they numbers come out much worse. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
