Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter EAC vs. CD audio... Throwing Down the Gauntlet !!!
Toy Maker;638339 Wrote: I will also do a little testing/listening of FLAC vs. wav files vs. CDs in the next week or so. Again, i don't expect to be able to hear a difference. But I want to cover all my bases before showing up unprepared, and look stupid and have anyone tell me see we told you CDs were better Approximately what % of space is saved using FLAC files over the raw wav files? For someone with so many toys you seem kinda green :) The bitstreams will be identical. The jitter may vary between devices. The difference will likely be inaudible. Good DACs will make the difference in jitter non existent. It's been beaten to death years ago. You're a little late to the party. If you use a DAC that can use an external word clock with the Transporter the jitter will be effectively 0. I assume some CD players can drive or use input a word clock as well. If you use an external DAC you basically want a single master clock running both the player and the DAC. Rather than use SPDIF and recreate the clock in the DAC. This is the best way to use an external, but you likely won't hear a difference with out it. If it's reasonbly good CD player or Transporter. FYI DBpoweramp, is so much better than EAC. They own accurateRip (assuming you know what that means). You seem a bit hung up on EAC. You get a bunch other nice tools with dbPoweramp as well. I think most folks on this forum are convinced going with Music libraries even if it was slightly worse than CD. The luxury of your whole library at your finger tips is great. Flac rules around here for most folks. WAV was created with Windows 3.1, much better, does error correcting, easier to store meta data and have the space with no loss. It can also support 24/96 (officially) as well as multi channel. You can also setup your server to send WAV to Transporter/SB3 even if your library is in FLAC. Silly, but you can. -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88364 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
DaveWr;602190 Wrote: Since the actual data won't be affected, it has to be timing - jitter effects. This would also mean that your DAC has poor jitter rejection performance. Data integrity on all Squeezeboxes has been proved by DTS cinema stream data, any changes and it doesn't decode. I am a strong beleiver in this test for gross setup errors. But if you drop bits now and then DTS will still Decode. I don't know the details of how DTS/DD does error receovery but I believe it has it. I think it does things like repeats etc. to fill in gaps where things didn't decode correctly. Or errors can be so short that they won't be obvious. But I have done a lot of testing in this area and recorded the bit stream out of SqueezeBox and Transporter and the diffed the results with the source. It's not hard to get 100% bit-perfect Datastream and most any differences you might hear are jitter. And I don't think jitter changes on WIFI vs Hardwired. It's nonsense. Most good DACs will do some jitter reduction as well. -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bug in Transporter Firmware 84
Mnyb;595307 Wrote: That I have seen on my SB3 or boom fixed by the mentioned xilink reset or restart. Note that I do like to beta test I might have used many fw versions and 300-400 different server versions or soo.. Its usually a very rare bug not seen by everyone. Wait untill you get the hellishly distorted sound at extremely high volume bug ;) all ip3k sbs can get to this state, sounds like a crackling white noise modulated by the music you try to play, also xilink reset time . Thats one reason to always use attenuation when going directly to power amps (besides the obvious sonic benefits). I've been sticking to official releases for some time now. Running nightly I always ended up chasing my tail. But I really wanted the AC Power fix in firmware 84. I have never had the extremely high volume bug or crackling white noise problem either. Maybe the bug is in digital attenuation :) I also don't use Transporter DACs. -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=83927 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] . . . and then a question!
You can also install the nightly build and get firmware 85. -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=83969 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bug in Transporter Firmware 84
I've been running 84 for a couple weeks now. No AC Failures yet. I went to run the system this morning. Everything seems fine, Transporter needles bouncing along but no sound. Rebooted Transporter and I got sound. This has never ever happened in the couple years I've had it. Anyone else have this issue? Should I report a bug? Squeezebox Server StatusVersion: 7.5.1 - r30836 @ Tue Jun 1 06:02:45 PDT 2010 Hostname: thinkpad Server IP Address: 192.168.2.102 Server HTTP Port Number: 9000 Operating system: Windows XP - EN - cp1252 Platform Architecture: 586 Perl Version: 5.10.0 - MSWin32-x86-multi-thread MySQL Version: 5.0.22-community-nt Total Players Recognized: 2 ControllerPlayer Model: Controller Firmware: 7.5.1-r9009 Player IP Address: 192.168.2.145 Player MAC Address: 00:04:20:1a:12:eb TransporterPlayer Model: Transporter Firmware: 84 Player IP Address: 192.168.2.149 Player MAC Address: 00:04:20:10:0c:33 Voltage: 120 -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=83927 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bug in Transporter Firmware 84
Wombat;595097 Wrote: Just for your info, recent firmware is 85 Oh cool thanks. For reference, my transporter nor squeezebox in 4 years has never shown everything as PLAYING but nothing come out. It was not frozen, if it did that I would be less concerned. But the needles (VU meters) and time etc. were moving along. It acted as if outputs were muted. -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=83927 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bug in Transporter Firmware 84
Wombat;595097 Wrote: Just for your info, recent firmware is 85 Where did you get it, I usually get it here which still shows 84 http://update.slimdevices.com/update/firmware/7.6.0/ -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=83927 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Bug in Transporter Firmware 84
mswlogo;595141 Wrote: Where did you get it, I usually get it here which still shows 84 http://update.slimdevices.com/update/firmware/7.6.0/ Never mind I got from nightly build. -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=83927 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
michael123;594727 Wrote: good for you.. +1 :) -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter making strange noises
I've never heard mine. But I do use knob on occasion. Try using it a little and see if that helps. I know there was some buggy versions of firmware regarding it (pretty long ago now though) and I think I got my unit just after those were resolved. -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=83767 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Stereophile Review II: What conclusion can be drawn from the Measurements?
You guys seem to think the difference between 17 and 18 bits is insignificant. It can be quite large. I agree in 24bits music most systems and ears won't hear say the bottom 5 bits or so. But when you are talking 16 vs 17 vs 18 vs 19 bits I think you are in an area that on SOME systems with SOME rooms with SOME ears with SOME music this can make a large practical difference. 17 bits seems rather poor these days. But it probably doesn't matter to folks that would use the analog outputs anyways (as opposed to a better DAC). The DACs in my 15 year old Meridian speakers can do 18bits and the 9 year ones can do 20-21 bits. I believe I can hear 18bits at normal listening levels on some passages of some music in my system that resolves 20-21 bits. -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82050 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Best 24/96 demo tracks?
R Johnson;573425 Wrote: Suppose the SAME recording is available for download at 16/44.1 and at 24/88.2 -- that is, a new recording produced at 24/88.2 and down-sampled to 16/44.1 for a CD or a download. Question 1: Can I hear a difference? Nature of difference? Question 2: Assuming that the answer to #1 was Yes, is it worth extra money for the 'HD' download? How much money? I'm simply looking for sample downloads to answer those questions. I want to compare apple-HD to apple-CD not apple-HD to orange-CD. You can test it yourself with any 24/96 recording. Just use dbpoweramp to mix it down to 16/44 and compare it. I can't tell the difference with my system. Because 0dB is 0dB in 16bit or 24bit the Mixing job isn't that different between 24/96 and 16/44. Since the top 96db (top 16bits) is what is most critical and pretty much all what you can hear. There is a little more room for slop with 24bit in that if it's mixed a little too low digitally you can bring it up. Where on 16bit it's gone. Here is a web site with some free Hi-Res stuff to play with. http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=81634 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Excellent Touch Review
RonM;568624 Wrote: This is on Home Theater and High Fidelity. Originally posted in the general discussion area. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/digital-analog-converters/879-logitech-squeezebox-touch.html?showall=1 I have recently ordered a Transporter, from eBay. I was nuts to do so; it's not clear that the TP can do anything that I need or want that the Touch won't do. R. That review was meaningless. When someone does some side by side measurements with a Transporter and Touch and touch possibly wins then, you can scratch your head about your choice. Until then my money is on Transporter. I don't think you'll regret it once you hook it up. -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=81131 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Outstanding Transporter issues?
michael123;567558 Wrote: #1 The bug was fixed quite recently.. http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15693 #2 Which issue? I do run into the overvoltage bug about once every couple months or so. I keep checking for the new firmware release and still nothing at http://update.slimdevices.com/update/firmware/7.6.0/ I think there was an issue with highly compressed FLACs at one point. Not sure if something was fixed or it was a If it hurts, don't do that type of solution. I never had a problem with 96Khz myself. -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=81018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Outstanding Transporter issues?
michael123;567587 Wrote: I have sometimes general performance issues with SBS, e.g. when I switch album the whole system (SBS/Transporter) freezes. I have quite powerful system (for SBS at least) - now it is Core i5 with 320GB 7200rpm hard drive, 4GB RAM running Windows7 and Lime unRaid NAS.. Looks like some kind of MySQL lock (don't really see any bottleneck with CPU or disk).. In this case, I do not really know if it comes from Transporter or SBS.. Ahh, and sometimes Transporter just freezes (very rarely). I need to disconnect power cable and reconnect it back, since it does not react to buttons on its front panel.. This sounds unrelated to the Transporter itself. Mine has been running very smooth. -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=81018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What outboard DAC do you use with Squeezebox?
jbc;490836 Wrote: I'm currently feeding my Linn Unidisk SC a steady stream of flac files via toslink, and it works fine. The performance is - to my ears - on par with playing the original disks in the Unidisk. As an aside, a second squeezebox feeds an analog signal to an older Rotel/BW set-up in the kitchen/dining room, and that works fine too. Seeing all the recent reviews of DAC's with asymmetric (apodizing) filters - like Ayre and Meridian - and hearing the new Linn DS units makes me think there's still potential room for improvement. So, as a poll, what kind of outboard DAC do you use with your squeezeboxes? Secondly, has anyone switched from 'my' setup to something else, and had an increase in performance? If so, what did you try? Thanks, JBC I ran the Transporter through Meridian's HD621 apodizing upsampler and to be honest I didn't hear much difference at all. Now perhaps the apodizing upsample in the 808.3 or 861V6 or if my music choice was different I must have different results. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72018 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Does the Touch provide a bit perfect output?
TiredLegs;563533 Wrote: Windows XP maybe, but Windows Vista and Windows 7? Bit perfect output is easy with the newer OSs. And what more could the operating system possibly do? I have no problem getting bit-perfect out of XP, Vista or Windows 7 over USB. It's more of driver issue than anything. You must use either WASPI (Vista/Win7) or ASIO (XP/Win7/Vista). Don't see WASPI support much yet from vendors. My favorite unit is the TASCAM US144 MKII. $122.00 on amazon. I've tried many. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80537 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Does the Touch provide a bit perfect output?
michael123;564107 Wrote: or Kernel Streaming. BTW, ASIO is good for XP, but for Win7/Vista it is outdated May be but it works fine. 64bit too. Don't see many apps or cards supporting WASPI. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80537 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Yet another Touch vs. Transporter thread
A friend of mine built a modest size dedicated HT. His equipment was in the back outside the room but he wanted his DVD player in front inside. I don't know how many feet it was, but it was a lot. But with like 50 ft of RCA he was getting drop outs all over the place. He converted to XLR using a Meridian 518 and then another 518 to convert back and his problems were solved. He also tried Coax between 518's and no go. So much for it being crap. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sound quality between wav and flac
Themis;558238 Wrote: My own listening tests come to the same conclusion as Phil's ones. Nevertheless, for various practical reasons (and also because my SB is wired) I do FLAC-PCM conversion on the server. I used to that but doing Fast Forward, Rewind and Next Song etc. all were kindy herky jerky. With Flac it's nice and smooth. It may be improved now since I last tried it or with a beefier server. But I don't see any value in doing so. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71321 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] bit-perfect malarky?
wayne325;558637 Wrote: The cross product between jitter and communications channel duplex type is exactly equal to 0. I can just as well make an extrememly low jitter simplex comms channel as I can make a highly jittered full duplex channel. Also, simplex channels need not be synchronized. The world is chock full of chips called asynchronous source rate converters that perform exactly the function of destroying or creating output data to adjust the input data rate. There is nothing which compels the output of such devices to have high amounts of jitter. And... I know all about sending source clocks from a DAC to a transport in order to reduce jitter. Much, much better than most. In fact, I believe I'm still the only person on this board who has designed his own DAC to do exactly this. However, I reiterate that sending the clock in this manner to the transport does NOTHING to reduce jitter inherent in the system. All it does is get rid of the SRC. The jitter is up to the DAC designer. That is, I can just as well make a high jitter clock-looped system as I can a low-jitter SRC-type system. By feeding the clock back you eliminate clock drift between the two components allowing a small reclocking buffer to eliminate jitter from the source. If you have a reclocking buffer unless you have the clock fed back or some sort of hand shake your buffer will underflow or overflow. I can do this between my Meridian (DAC) and Transporter. Problem is it's a chicken or egg problem as to what rate the Merdian DAC should run at based on the source file I'm playing. Ugh. I'm sure one could design a low jitter one-way and a poor jitter two-way setup. But the best way is two-way with rebuffering. This essentially just moves the jitter problem into a signal box that can be better managed with one accurate master clock. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79677 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] bit-perfect malarky?
Yes it is. Two way systems allow buffering and reclockling. For example a squeezebox has no added jitter from lan or wifi. As soon as you switch to systems that are one way, they have to synchronized. For example SPDIF. If you broadcast the clock from dac back to the source. You solve a lot of jitter problems. But that is basically twoway. Another way is to buffer incoming signal, but unless it can communicate with source it has problems. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79677 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Yet another Touch vs. Transporter thread
20bit / 48khz is about the limit of your equipment, room and hearing. 32/384 you completely discredited your review (flush...woosh...girgle girgle) -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] bit-perfect malarky?
cliveb;555171 Wrote: I think you are being a little optimistic. Even the Benchmark DAC1 USB (a $1300 device) uses adaptive mode. It appears you are correct. I stand corrected. I can't believe these audio manufacturers are so stupid. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79677 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] bit-perfect malarky?
cliveb;554859 Wrote: That is not necessarily so. USB DACs *can* operate in asynchronous mode (where the master clock is in the DAC and controls the transfer from the computer host), but many USB DACs (especially the cheaper ones) operate in adaptive mode where the DAC has no control over the transfer. It's just as bad as SPDIF in that respect (typically worse, in fact, because the clocks in PCs are usually less stable than those in digital audio transports). Perhaps $20.00 USB DACs. But anything over $100.00 will do it async. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79677 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] bit-perfect malarky?
pski;554816 Wrote: Thanks. All the music is already apple lossless (which I understand IS compressed.) I tried EAC before setting-out but it took FOREVER. I've been using dbpoweramp for conversions. As a summary: it sounds like USB might be better than spdif because it's synchronous. The DAC has all three inputs. This leads to questions about OS USB drivers. The host is Vista and the user is wondering if a sound card/drivers might provide different results from the stock output of the PS Audio driver. (Simple: control panel/sound/usb codec?) Previous experience with PS Audio has been good. Paul Both EAC and dBPoweramp can take forever if not setup correctly. Both setup correctly can be quite fast and accurate. That said dppoweramp is much more user friendly to setup and default behavior is better. Apple lossless is just as fine as flac. It's just not as popular and not native to the squeezebox, so it will have to transcode to wav or flac. USB is no BETTER than PCI, LAN, WIFI etc. You really should not be comparing USB to SPDIF it's just two completely different things. There may be some exceptions as clivb mentioned where it buffers on the PC. But I believe that is total cheap crap you would not even look at. You don't connect the SQUEEZE box to the computer with SPDIF do you? No. One thing that is being mixed up a little a DAC versus Transport. I tend to think of SqueezeBoxes or USB SoundCards or PC's as Transports. I personally would never use any of those as a DAC. But if you are strictly talking DAC, then yeah a good USB one solves a lot of jitter issues becuase it's buffered up into that BOX and they can control clocking from the buffer to the DAC. But if your talking say a USB SoundCard as a digital transport, you need to convert to SPDIF anyway and USB doesn't really solve anything. You can think of a SqueezeBox or Transporter as exactly the same thing (as the USB SoundCard if you use it as a DAC or Transport. The Wifi/Lan is buffered and so all clocking is controlled within one box. One box (one master clock) is the best way to address jitter. But if you use the SqueezeBox/Transporter as a Transport then problems with jitter over SPDIF are back again. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79677 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB hardware hangs with surround/5.1 FLAC files... Needs hard reset.
Archimago;555114 Wrote: Hi guys. No, it's not an issue with DTS surround bit streams; rather an issue with multichannel lossless compressed FLAC files. These are accepted by SqueezeCenter/Server and show up as music to play. Just attached a short 30-sec 6-channel FLAC-compliant file to the bug report above. It's 6 channels of a sine wave. Import into SqueezeCenter and you'll see that it's accepted and will show up in the database. Now play it... No sound but hardware will show it playing. Now try playing something else that should play properly. Bet you have to unplug the Squeezebox to reset. Try renaming a MIDI file to .WAV see if that makes it crash too. The server only looks at the tag information as far as showing in the library as playable. But if you give it an unsupported file what else do expect. Sure it could handle the error more gracefully. But creating a whole thread for just that rather than just filing a bug and moving on seems quite over kill. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79646 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] bit-perfect malarky?
pski;554803 Wrote: So: connecting a SB receiver (or other boxen) via spdif (or USB for that matter.) Is there really a difference between winders and OSX? I understand codecs and drivers are different but can someone explain the seeming (local) bias against winders vs apple (with respect to bit perfect?) What about these little (and $400) gizmos that are claimed to correct the clocking of winders/OSX USB and convert to coax optical out? Duh? I'm puzzled. Mostly I'm looking at a PS Audio Digital III.. USB output from the computer vs spdif from the SB receiver. Outputs will be balanced through the preamp to the power amps. Wouldn't this box also properly frame the digital input? Paul They can all be bit-perfect if setup correctly. Both OS's have had issues over the years and ways to address them. Not all sound cards are bit-perfect basically because of poor driver support. The whole reclocking over USB is a joke. USB is TWO-WAY so any USB device should not have jitter issues getting out to that device. Jitter comes in when it's converted to SPDIF because it's ONE-WAY communciation and therefore it's more complicated to buffer and synchromize clocks because you can't control the dataflow rate. A USB device is no different than WIFI, LAN, or PCI. They will all send the data to a buffer to be clocked out over SPDIF. One problem on Macs I recall though is it was not easy to get iTunes to track the data rate of the source file your playing. You had to set the output clock rate and if it matched the source you were all set. But if it didn't it would resample. This may have changed since I last looked at it. Another area that I think Windows has a slight edge is the choice of very good ripping software EAC and dbpoweramp with AccurateRip. I don't think accurate rip is available on Macs yet but I read it was being requested of the popular ripping tools. On Macs don't use iTunes to Rip and Likewise don't use Windows Media Player to Rip. There are better tools out there. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79677 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SB hardware hangs with surround/5.1 FLAC files... Needs hard reset.
ralphpnj;554658 Wrote: All of the Squeezebox devices will pass through the digital data stream of a DTS encoded 5.1 flac file. What they will not do is: 1) Decode any type of multi-channel stream since all the Squeezebox devices are only two channel. 2) Pass through a non-DTS encoded 5.1 flac stream. In other words, when you rip the 5.1 data from a DVD-Audio disc what you get are six separate channels of data (5 plus the subwoofer channel) and these channels need to be encoded into a DTS stream in order have your Squeezebox (or Transporter or Receiver or Touch) successfully pass the DTS data through a device which can decode the DTS stream, such as a home theater receiver. Basically there is an extra step involved which requires using DTS encoding software such as Surcode DTS. You may also be able to encode the 5.1 data into a Dolby Digital stream but I haven't tried doing this so I'm not sure if that will work. Just for the record, I have encountered the same problem you described and I was able to resolve it by using a DTS encoder. You can extract the ENCODED DTS/AC3 bitstream that is already on 99% of all DVD-A's. It's described in the WIKI how to do it. It's a bit of work and works fine. I have a ton of them and they sound extremely good. It's silly to reencode the lossless DVD-A channels into DTS yourself. What's on the disk already is done by a pro and it will likely sound better and a heck of lot easier. If you throw an illegal file format at the SqueezeBox/Transporter (i.e. a 5.1 FLAC) and hang don't expect it to get very high priority. But the DTS/AC3 encode bitstream embedded in a 2 channel Flac has worked perfectly for years. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79646 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Duet + dacmagic or squeezebox touch
depends on your decent stereo system and how it's hooked up to it, analog or digital and if your decent stereo system has a true analog path through it. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79561 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Duet + dacmagic or squeezebox touch
tomasito;554220 Wrote: Hello Rhalpnj, Your advise is good. You are right I will go first with the touch. If you are hooking up digitally to your decent stereo I doubt you'll notice a difference. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79561 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter: No more bug fixes in firmware
Bug shows it was fixed in version 80. How can it be in 80 if 80 has been published for a while? Wouldn't it be 81 if it was just fixed? Is 80 part of nightly build? -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78453 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter: No more bug fixes in firmware
michael123;552489 Wrote: Yes! http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15693 Awesome. Do you guys have experience plugging oil wells? -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78453 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter versions
RonM;552255 Wrote: I am contemplating a transporter, and have access to a couple of models. The current part number is 930-12, according to the Logitech website; I could also obtain one with p/n 930-53. Anyone know what the difference is, if any? Odd that the higher number is the older unit, maybe it's for a different geographic market. Product info makes no reference to Win7, though. R. There is two colors. That's all I'm aware of and there may be a part number with that packages it with a Duet Controller. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79339 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
cliveb;551849 Wrote: Phil, I think you've misunderstood what Mr_Sukebe is saying. He is saying that he hears differences in output *from the same DAC* when using different SPDIF sources. So he's not comparing one DAC to another. That said, I remain unconvinced that jitter is the cause of these differences. Too many people say that there are only two things that can possibly distinguish digital sources: the bits they deliver, and the jitter. Not so - there are two another possible sources of difference that I can think of: a). The EMI radiated by the devices which can affect the operation of other nearby analogue circuitry. b). Grounding topology which may allow noise to transfer between the ground planes of devices. On unbalanced devices, the ground plane becomes part of the signal (in that the actual signal is in fact the difference between the signal and ground). Therefore if there is any noise on the ground plane it gets interpreted as signal. (*Perfect* shunting of the ground plane to earth is of course impossible). You points on A and B are correct. But you'd have to have one really F'd up setup for those to occur (and have cables significantly change it). I have tons of Meridian boxes and never found a digital cable to make any difference. I've done similar experiments that I posted and recorded the signal right at the digital tape output of 861 to assure data was perfect from rip to processor. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
Themis;551675 Wrote: You are talking about the SPDIF receivers, not the dacs, surely ? Please allow me to respectfully disagree to your above assumption. As you are not talking about jitter anymore, what are you talking about, exactly ? ;) I'm talking about how robust SPDIF communication is. And if you have a Good DAC (that buffers/reclocks - many do) it doesn't matter what you use for an SPDIF cable (TosLink or Coax). -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
Themis;551675 Wrote: You are talking about the SPDIF receivers, not the dacs, surely ? Please allow me to respectfully disagree to your above assumption. As you are not talking about jitter anymore, what are you talking about, exactly ? ;) Better yet. Why don't you read the actualy thread I explained myself in rather than read it here out of context. http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79245 I replied to this thread with a LINK to that because someone asked if I had posted information about some testing further up in this thread. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Toslink vs Coax SB3 vs Reference [bits are bits (+ Jitter)]
See the test at the bottom. http://www.meridianunplugged.com/wiki/index.php?pagename=RMAATests The RMAA test is actaully less important than the work I did to actually diff the results. The Recorded files and the files I hand trimmed are included. I used a non 75ohm cable (because I was too lazy to dig one up) and for one test I used a CO2 converter to convert TosLink to Coax. Note there are 2 types of jitter. Peak to Peak and Clock Drift. The Meridian FIFO (or similar buffering in good DACs) will get rid of 100% of peak to peak jitter. A cable could change peak to peak jitter but it can't effect the clock drift jitter. So with a Meridian system (or a DAC with similar buffering) a digital cable should make ZERO difference. As well as TosLink vs Coax will make no difference. It also tells me SpeakerLink (a new Meridian connection) should make no difference since the DSP Speakers have FIFO dejitter as well and should eliminate cable differences. I was a little concerned the DTS Test was not 100% reliable, in that DTS does handle some errors. I had in the past recorded my own test wave forms and compared them bit for bit using a wave form editor. But this test is much more extensive and verifies it's not that hard to transmit every bit over SPDIF. All that is left with a Good DAC is effects of clock drift. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79245 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
Phil Leigh;551440 Wrote: If you are recording and diffing s/pdif you will never see jitter. Jitter will only manifest post-DAC (assuming decent, working equipment - which you do have!). For jitter to manifest pre-DAC it would have to be so severe as to change the bitstream - which we all know it doesn't in the SB2/3/TP/Touch devices. All the evidence available points to the conclusion that the Touch and TP are pretty much perfect deliverers of s/pdif to a DAC... I know that, but some don't seem to believe it. SB3 is a perfect SPDIF deliverer too (both toslink and SPDIF). CO2 converts perfectly and TASCAM records perfectly. All that is left is jitter. And if your DAC buffers/reclocks that gets rid of all peak to peak jitter. So people must have really bad DACs if they can hear differences between toslink vs coax and this cable or that. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to fight clipping due to high (recorded) volume?
TiredLegs;550952 Wrote: That must sound like a jet engine or something. I don't see how it could sound like music. There is no way to tell how bad it is from a birds eye view with Audacity. Audacity will mark full scale peaks red. You really have to zoom into a few areas to see how bad the clipping really is. It doesn't look promising that hits full scale that often but you really need to look closer to judge. You need to read the redlines as possible clipping. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78964 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to mono L R balanced outputs
I suspect this thread applies. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr1217354866 -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79158 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
My guess is it will sound fine until you suddenly lose lock. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
Don't get me wrong I love my Transporter. But it's had the over voltage problem since I bought it (couple years now) and it's a simple firmware bug that has not been fixed. I would not buy one today unless this bug was fixed. It does not happen often, but would you buy a car that just quits on you in the middle of highway once a month. Even though it runs fine the rest of the time and starts right back up. What would your passengers think. Absolute sin. Just buy a touch. It will be supported for a while. As far as digital differences I doubt you'll hear any difference. I didn't hear ANY difference going from SqueezeBox 3 to Transporter using an external DAC. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
michael123;550404 Wrote: mswlogo I was asked this week for some comments via bugzilla for this specific bug, there is a hope it will be fixed (for 7.6?) btw, I did hear the difference between SB3 and Transporter... Flat sound of SB3 was the reason it migrated to the bedroom and I got Transporter.. They are both absolutely 100% bit perfect (TosLink and Coax, Wifi and Wired). I've recorded the SPDIF on both and neither will miss a bit. Only difference may be jitter. But as dicussed elsewhere a good DAC will take care of that. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Touch vs. Transporter digital output (again)
michael123;550424 Wrote: With my audiolab 8000AP it did not sound well.. anyway, there are huge differences in construction of SB3, Touch and Transporter. Yes construction is different. most of Transporter's construction is for beefing up it's analog section. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78441 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
nicolas75;550428 Wrote: Well, no need to get angry :-) I am not an hardware guy, and I am far more aware of the problem you have with old piece of software much less efficient than modern ones. I thought that taking advantage of modern hardware instruction set, over obsolete one, could be very useful for a hardware designer to make more efficient and reliable products. I know that it is true for some embedded systems much more critical than sound processing. I am not a DSP hardware designer, so if you are, and are positive it is useless in this case, I can easily accept it :-) Let's stop this off topic discussion :-) Here Cirus Logic's Audio DSP's (no 64bit) http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/techs/T6.html Here is TI's (no 64bit) http://focus.ti.com/apps/docs/mrktgenpage.tsp?appId=1contentId=14700 Here is Freescales (which now includes the Motorola line) They even have quad core 16bit chips. http://www.freescale.com/webapp/search/Serp.jsp?qt=DSPQueryText=DSPbaseUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freescale.com%2FwebappPART_NUMBER=SEARCH_OPERATOR=Containsattempt=-1 -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
nicolas75;550220 Wrote: Unusual advice, Igor Levin from Antelope is talking about the benefit of jitter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-65gN44G9hU Sounded pretty good until he mentioned a 64bit Processor. When ever I hear that I know it's a B.S. sales pitch rather than a technical pitch. The most significant attribute of a 64bit Processor is much memory it can address. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
nicolas75;550229 Wrote: I don't fully agree. I do prefer a Windows 7 x64 over a x86, even if I use few memory. Modern OS are more stable and efficient in 64bit than in 32bit. If someone want to build a PC with a processor which is not a 64bit one, I wonder which OS you will install on it ... (nowadays all PC processors are 64bit, even if you stick with a 32bit OS, I doubt any 32bit processor is still supported). No idea if there can be some analogy when you develop a Dac. But I guess that available material which are not 64bit may well be obsolete ones ... How windows behaves in 64bit vs 32bit is totally irrelevant. All this means is you bought into the 64bit buzz word he used to impress you. Because people associate new and more stable with it. Which has nothing to do will a totally controlled embedded DSP environment. It could be a 8-bit processor and be just as effective and stable a solution. It would be like my saying my 3.0L engine rides smoother than your 2.0L engine. What does engine size have to do with how smooth the ride is. Now for a particular car line a certain model with 3.0L may be associated with a more luxury model (in your mind or the puclics mind) than the 2.0L. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
nicolas75;550294 Wrote: I don't think so. It is because I have to use and develop applications for x64 et x86, both Windows and Linux. So I am quite aware that the amount of work for maintaining both versions results in the fact that the main version is more carefully tested, reliable, and efficient, than the obsolete one you have to maintain because of those who still use it. I think that for Windows, the process of replacing x86 by x64 really started with Windows Vista, and that now, with Windows 7, the massive adoption of x64 starts. (step already done with Mac OS by the way) Until now, when you were looking for a driver, x86 drivers were the main ones (Windows XP x64 was almost not used) and x64 version of the driver not always available. It is clear that now, drivers will be develop for x64, and x86 obsolete versions will be derived from the x64, and will not be the priority. I can easily imagine that the hardware process is the same. I don't think x86 processor is still correctly supported by a recent OS Who still use an Intel 486 in a computer today ? If someone tell me that in his new product, he replaced an Intel 486 with a modern Intel x64 processor, I wouldn't say he is telling marketing bullshit, I would wonder why on earth that was not done earlier. If you just want to save small text files, a 3.5 floppy is enough. Anyway I am happy to use usb key instead, and have not used a floppy for years ... Is that only because of buzz and marketing bullshit ? Stop comparing Desktop/Server OS's to Embedded DSP. Apples and oranges. If someone was selling a Desktop or Server. Sure I'd want to hear 64bit. But that's NOT what we are dealing with. We are dealed with embedded OS or custom OS processing audio in real time. Who gives a crap of it's 64bit or 32bit or 16bit. As long as it does what it's supposed to do. Does that mean it will have less jitter? Does that mean it will have less errors? Does your 8bit, 16bit or 32bit embedded DSP systems crash more than a 64bit? It means absolutely NOTHING in embedded DSP world. They don't use Intel x86 or x64 desktop chips for embedded Audio DSP. Sorry, hate to clue ya. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Volume controlS questions???
Mnyb;549774 Wrote: OT : It's been interesting to see mswlogo measuring the G98 (as I have one) . I strongly suspect that it is an connection between it's hybrid volume control, and the setup when you calibrate it with your RS spl meter . It's seems to use some course analog gain steps then using a digital volume control for the finer steps. I suspect that it chooses where to use it's big analog steps based on your calibration, thus giving every G68 owner an OK gain scaling even if you are unaware of the problems. But anyhow I,m still using the gain on my power amps so that I crank up the G68 at it's higher levels, this would still give slightly better performance. But I'm still using passive speakers, so I have bigger fish to fry re ultimate performance ;) G68 does not do anything special in calibration for analog setups(which is good). I ran a specific test for that. See meridian wiki page. For dsp speakers calibration does case issues. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79033 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Volume controlS questions???
Ikabob;549831 Wrote: So, totally bypass the pre-amp. That is an option I never thought about. I'll give that a thought. But I have an am/fm radio into pre- amp to amp...and a DVD player. Use the preamp for daily adjustment. Leave touch on Max. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79033 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 2.0 vs 2.1
ghostrider;549854 Wrote: Sorry I didn't post more detailed info. My speakers are floorstanders, Anthony Gallo Reference 3.1's. They are 4-way, with 2 carbon fiber midrange drivers that roll off at about 150hz. The woofer takes over there down to -3db at 34hz according to the specs. I'm driving the speakers with an NHT amp with Icepower modules that's rated at 200wpc. The 10 woofer also has a second voice coil which I drive with a 240wpc Gallo subamp, which allows me to adjust phase and boost by channel. A lowpass filter is also provided and I have it set at 40hz. This extends the low frequency performance to a theoretical 22hz. I live in a condo and my living room is 24x16. I've skimmed the referenced article and it's rather deep for me...Q factors, forth order slopes? I'll have to go over it again in more depth this evening. Also, my source is a Transporter and I run the analog outs to a Pioneer Elite receiver, which I'm using only as an analog direct preamp, no digital signal processing turned on. One of the issues I'm concerned with is stereo bass. Does the fact that most of the bass is coming through a dedicated subwoofer produce an altered soundstage? I doubt a sub would help. But the main reason for subs is their flexibility placing them where they will perform well in your room. Quite often where your mains are may not be the best place for low frequencies to be delivered from. It's more of a room issue than how big your mains are in knowing if you could use a sub or not. I personally tend not to like subs. I love having 5 (almost) full range speakers. It's all about moving air and spreading that out within the room. If you did add a sub I would consider 2.2 rather than 2.1 -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79054 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to fight clipping due to high (recorded) volume?
Mnyb;549426 Wrote: This Matrix stereo downmix is a feature of the DVD-A system it -should- work , hmm maybe time to drag out my copy was it Brothers in Arms ? Normally you only use this if there is no Stereo track on the DVD-A . technically these downmix works but artistically they could be whatever. It's a course method compared to a real engineer doing a real stereo mix from the 24 track or what it was. This of-course depends on how the 5.1 was done and what is in the other 4.1 channels and how much of the other channel are used in the matrix. The matrix downmix of Brothers in Arms sounds ok to me, maybe there are smart ways to make the matrix downmix ok. I wonder what audacity reports a clipping most of these are when the sample actually hits full 24 bits not a flatline between several samples. So I say it is points where you should suspect clipping. Is it really clipping if a single sample hits the full word length, to know this you must have knowledge of how it locked like before AD to see if in fact the transient should have been a little bit louder the software can not have this knowledge. If it's a flat between several samples it is very likely that it is clipped And also being the hit song of the album Money for nothing sounds as it does the hit's is always a hotter mix brothers in arms looks much better for example . But Money for nothing is a very benign example of this. for the kids out there ;) in the beginning of the loudness war it was common practice that only the hit song(s) should sound like crap , not all songs like it is now. I like this album, it is better than you remembered I just skip Money for nothing 50% times i listen to it and walk of life 100% of the time's There are multiple clip detectors in audacity. One allows you to set how many consecutive full scale bits before flagging it. If there is approx 3 or more consecutive bits full scale then you can be pretty sure it clipped since real peaks are not flat. That's why I say 95% of the clipped peaks in Brother In Arms are not to worry about. As the just brush full scale. But some are clearly chopped off. There may be some stuff built into DVDA for playing/extracting 2 channel. But the way he did it post processing a 6 Channel Rip won't be assisted by anything to do with DVDA. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78964 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Added DUET Headphone Jack to RMAA Tests
Not bad except for a problem at a couple frequencies. http://www.meridianunplugged.com/wiki/index.php?pagename=RMAATests -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=79027 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How good is the Transporter anyway?
earwaxer;548797 Wrote: Very good indeed! IMHO. I just replaced my fuse with a good German silver variety. The sound has improved on each iteration. Sure I could use more power. Probably the Wyred 4 sound integrated amp would give me that mid and base punch I am looking for from my maggies. Thats ok. The sound through the ethernet connection is VERY good! Much better than the wireless. I would be hesitant to go to ANY USB interface at this point. I would have to hear it first. Forget about 24bit 96khz. I have a fair amount of 24bit downloads. Not a big difference at all. 16bit sounds great through the Transporter. Isnt that what its all about? The CD's that we now have sounding great! I have a $15 25ft ethernet cable and it sounds fantastic. Could I go that long with a USB? Probably not. Call me a nut! I am not convinced that USB has an edge at this point. synch or non synch. $15 on ethernet cable for audio !! Try a Monster Ethernet cable and you'll really be in for a treat. http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=4697 -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78950 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to fight clipping due to high (recorded) volume?
Phil Leigh;549272 Wrote: Michael - I'm not sure, you need advice from a Behringer owner. Are you boosting any frequencies or just cutting? For example, if you were boosting by 6dB at 500Hz, you need to lower the overall behringer level by -6dB (at least, this is how my TACT works). Replaygain will be applied before the Behringer, any gain changes in the Behringer are (obviously) applied... in the Behringer. In both cases they are pre-DAC, so you will have a very small decrease in SNR - but I bet you wont hear it. Actually, Replaygain will try and keep your replay levels at approximately 89dB... so in theory you should have plenty of headroom for EQ. You would think the Behringer would automatically add headroom if it thinks it needs it. I would set Behringer flat and only attenuate a few hot peaks. Sometimes less is more. Lot of experts say don't go for flat. It won't sound that great and it's impossible to achieve anyway. I'm a little confused though. If you are using Behringer in the transporter processor loop then you are only dealing with 2 channels. If you are only dealing with 2 channels then something had to mix the 6 channels down to 2 channels. If that's what you are doing I would look there. Often when you mix multichannel down to 2 channel it won't sound the best. It's very hard to do well. Are you letting a squeezebox plugin do that? I tried the mix down of Brother In Arms using DVD Audio extractor and it looked quite good as far as clipping and compression goes. But I did not try listening to the mix down. If you are limited to 2 channel you might just try the CD side. It may sound better than mixing down the Hi-Res MultiChannel. It's nice when DVDA disc has a 2 channel 24/96 track but most don't. If you are mixing down, I suspect that is what's making it not sound the greatest and not the actual clipping or what every you have beringer doing. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78964 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
Phil Leigh;549300 Wrote: It is simply NOT possible to emulate Jitter in DSP, since jitter is a phenomena that occurs in time intervals that are less than one sample duration, and there is no way in DSP software to manipulate such things, since the basic unit of work for DSP is a sample I was thinking that too. But the smallest unit of work in DSP is 1bit not one sample :) So you could emulate single bit misreads in DSP. But I'm not sure if other audio aspects of poor jitter kick in long before a bit misread. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to fight clipping due to high (recorded) volume?
michael123;548965 Wrote: I opened Money For Nothing (FLAC) from Brothers In Arms (DVD-A), and using Audacity/Find Clipping found a lot of fragments.. Running sox on the server is an option, but I do not want to do that for high-rez files, it will be very heavy BTW, some other DACs know to overcome this.. Don't confuse minor (I said MINOR) clipping. With an over compressed disc. Many DVDA's and CD's have minor clipping. And Audacity will flag them. If you look close at them they are like 0.01dB (most of the time). For just a few samples (small amount of clip for a small amount of time). This will not cause harm. What is a MUCH bigger problem is over compressed discs. Which Brother in Arms DVD-A I don't belive is. I have not examined Brother in ARMS MLP tracks in audacity but that album is very good (in my opinion). I won't crank up over compressed discs because they just plain hurt to listen too. But that DVD-A I do crank up. Quite often over compressed discs also have lots of clipping. The more important thing to look at is RMS levels. You are confusing Peak Loudness vs Average loudness. Here is an excellent article on it. http://www.chicagomasteringservice.com/loudness.html You can easily have a very overcompressed disk that sounds horrible and have no clipping clipping at all. If it has serious clipping that data is lost. If it's overcompressed you can actually do some decompression to make something more listenable. Check out the post from Dan W on the second page of this thread. I never did get and answer of how he repaired it but he used Adobe Audition. I suspect other tools out their like audacity can do dome expansion as well. I also show an excellent recording in that thread on the first page where audacity flags it it with clipping. http://meridianunplugged.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflatNumber=117267fpart=1 -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78964 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to fight clipping due to high (recorded) volume?
I had a look at Money For Nothing DVDA and it probably does cross the line a bit in clipping but not in overcompression. 95% of the clipping is really nothing, the peaks are just brushing the limit and getting flagged. But there are a few peaks that clearly cross the line. The track is so loud and busy at those points though, you probably would never hear it. When listening to it, it sounds quite good though. I don't think reducing it 2dB will solve your problems. But I don't know how digital equalizers work and if they add headroom for eq adjustments or what. But depending on how they work a track that really pushes the limit (and occasionally crosses it) may cause some issues. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78964 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
SoftwireEngineer;548679 Wrote: Folks, please dont say nobody knows better. I am a CS/EE major and a major skeptic. First off, please understand what jitter is. Here is my summary - a CD needs to be played exactly (will come to the recording later) at 44.1kHz. But we cannot control this frequency exactly. It varies and that too at very high frequency. Like for example - it is 44.10001Khz now and 44.0Khz in another millisecond/picosecond. DO you get the picture ? Is that distortion ? I do not know but it is not an exact reproduction of the waveform. Now can you hear this ? I have been using a Panasonic Digital Amplifier Receiver biamping my silverline sonatina speakers. So in my case, there is no dac, no class A/B amplification and associated distortions. My sound quality is directly related to the digital input quality (I think). And now if I change digital cables, sources (like digital modded SB3, Duet, modded oppo, Philips 963sa, Behringer SRC2496) I hear a difference. What do you think is at play ? (Same goes for the recording, you need to sample at exactly 1/44100 second intervals. So you cannot get rid of the jitter in the recording. One of the reasons some people insist on LP as the best source, because they are not satisfied with the best digital playback). Sounds like you need a better DAC. Most advanced DACs these days will buffer up the data and reclock it out internally. I would not consider Panasonic exactly an audiophile brand. Yes you do have a DAC. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] SqueezeBox 3 Analog Out added to RMAA Tests
I'm not sure anyone with the same test equipment has tested Transporter and SqueezeBox 3. I did not do another digital attenuation test, but you can compare both running at Max Volume using both 16bit and 24bit to get some idea the difference in performance. http://www.meridianunplugged.com/wiki/index.php?pagename=RMAATests -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78917 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
It's not easy to simulate with data because the jitter talked about is typically much less than one sample width. One CD sample is 1/44100 seconds where people debate differences in 100's of pico seconds 1/10. It's totally ridiculous. You could simulate massive jitter in the data. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The sound of jitter
Actually my numbers were off quite a bit. I was forgetting it was serial and 2 channels. So my guess on sample clock rate compared to jitter numbers was 2 orders of magnitude off. But still pretty far from 10s of pico seconds. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78790 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Strange behavior testing with RightMark Audio Analyzer
Phil Leigh;544662 Wrote: Ah. I think we are at cross-purposes here. The test method I am using is: 1) generate the test file in RMAA (you only need to do this once) 2) play back on SB device using SBS and... 3) record analogue output from SB device into soundcard (RMAA is not involved in this step) 4) use RMAA to open and analyse recorded file The calibration file is not required for any of this. It is used for speaker testing. Ah !! I was wondering about doing it that way but didn't think it should matter if RightMark analyzes Live or analyzes a recorded wav (that I just recorded Live) should be the same. RightMark basically records it and then analyzes what it recorded. I'll try it that way. However doing everything I've done does work Live. Except playing WAV. It's also the only path that reports calibration levels are distorted. If your not doing calibration file. How do you know you have the levels set right? You eye balling clip lights during the Test? -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78451 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Strange behavior testing with RightMark Audio Analyzer
See the new thread I created with test results for Transporter and Meridian. The Wav to Wav worked. I just ignored the calibration thing (which works fine in most cases). I adjusted gains each time until the recording was full scale. Lot's of trial and error. I think if I did the same with Live it would have work too. But my levels were wrong with the broken live calibration stuff. Should be nothing wrong recording live vs to a wav file. It's the same thing. RMAA just records to a file behind the scenes first and then analyzes. This would work on squeezebox too. It's just pain in the butt to get levels right with no calibration signal. It's also odd when driving Meridian live spdif it was squeaky clean. And I could never get that close playing a test wav through transporter to Meridian. Should be the same. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78451 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
Phil, they ALL have hybrid volume control. 565,561,568,G68,G61,G91,G92,G95,861,6k,8k,5k,5.2k,7k,7.2k With or without driving DSP speakers. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
I did the test the way phil suggested. And resukts were worse. So bad that the -24dB analyze could not find sync pulse. I understand why you want to do it this way but I think It's not right. You are stressing the ADC on sound card but not stressing the sound card peeamp gain. The way I did it I'm feeding similar levels to ADC but I'm stressing the input gain preamp on sound card. I believe the analog circiuts are more stable What I'm looking for is regardless of how good your analog side is or gain what does the DAC lose by shifting it's bits lower. Note that folks that use it as volume have Full gain on analog side. I figured out good test really see effects of digital attenuation that removes effect of preamp input gain on sound card but still give same levels to adc on sound card. Test the test signal and attenuate it by say 12dB digitally. Record it at full scale as best you possibly can. Fine tuning everything. Now switch how you attenuated. Put digital back up to 0dB and attenuate in analog by 12dB. Preamp gain stays the same (may need a tiny tweak). Levels that reach adc will also be the same. The only difference is how we attenuated. This exactly what we want to compare. I ran the test but have not had a chance to post it yet. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Strange behavior testing with RightMark Audio Analyzer
The generated Calibration file is junk it's way over clipped. http://softronix.com/pictures/levelperfect/GeneratedCalSignal.jpg Here it is if I record it Digitally which looks correct http://softronix.com/pictures/levelperfect/RecordedSPDIFCalSignal.jpg I think it may look at the capabilities of your sound card to generate it and it's screwing up. Could you email yours? Both CAL and Test mswlogo AT hotmail -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78451 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
Phil Leigh;545190 Wrote: Well you are Mr. Meridian, but that big knob on the front right hand side of the G68 is definitely a DSP Volume Control :-) It is not all DSP and it is not all Analog. It's both. But it has Analog in there. Quote from any old Meridian data sheet. The output level of the system can be controlled remotely or via the front-panel knob which controls a proprietary hybrid digital/analogue volume control – a design similar to that used in the 800 Series and DSP 8000. I'm not starting a thread with that discussion here. Your welcome to discuss it on Meridian forum if you wish. The Meridian may be doing better than a typical analog Preamp because of how it's Volume works. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Strange behavior testing with RightMark Audio Analyzer
Gotta read all the details. Of course Volume is at Max. TASCAM analog input is perfectly fine if I drive it through SPDIF it works. The FLAC file is perfectly fine is I record it on SPDIF out of Transporter I don't think you know what a TASCAM is. It's an external card and has analog trims and clipping lights. I can set the levels exactly right. I'm also using the Pro version of RightMark with ASIO. http://www.tascam.com/products/us-144mkII.html Every end works fine (SPDIF, WAV, Analog) except just one combo just won't. Playing the WAV file vs driving SPDIF should be exactly the same. Only difference is who derives clock. When SPDIF driven TASCAM derives clock (who so happens to have the ADC to Record) for WAV TRansporter derives clock. Summary Transporter SPDIF to Analog Works Merdian SPDIF to Analog Works Transporter SPDIF to SPDIF Works Meridian SPDIF to SPDIF Works Transporter FLAC to SPDIF Works Transporter FLAC to Analog Fails Transporter FLAC to SPDIF to Meridian to Analog Fails -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78451 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
Phil Leigh;545178 Wrote: Yes - this why recording in 24-bit is important and changes my results (improves them). I am reducing the level into the ADC (no make-up gain) so the ADC LSB noise becomes more significant - and of course there is less of it at 24-bit! I'll do a test with fixed Touch output and changing gain on the card just to be certain. Does the G68 have an analogue volume control? - I thought it was 100% DSP/no analogue? There is analog components in the Meridian Volume in both their speakers and preamps. Testing just the Transporter and trying to keep levels up then moves how good the input preamp is on the SoundCard into the test results. But my guess is the Meridian Volume and TASCAM input Preamp both have less issues than the ADC in the sound card. I have to think carefully the implications of using 24bit (for recording). But that may reduce effects of the soundcard ADC (allowing it to run the best it can). -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
Phil Leigh;545153 Wrote: Understood. So how exactly are you doing the analogue level reduction - which Meridian item are you using? ... you seem to have a lot of it :-) RMAA uses normalisation to address exactly what you are doing by re-recording - to get an accurate apples-to-apples comparison. Even if you get to within 0.1dB it will still normalise during the test. G68 Volume control. By the way it seems to make a significant difference on how close I get to 0.1dB. Again the larger the dynamic range you record the better the ADC can do. It's all the same argument again. Keep things as wide and near full scale as you can for both DACs and ADCs to pefroam their best. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter: No more bug fixes in firmware
Thank you thank you thank Andy :) Happy Transporter owner. Now can you fix that over voltage falses please !! -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78453 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
I stand corrected on the Actives. I did not realize there are 3 flavors of crossovers. Passive, Active and Digital. Unlike others I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong on something. Thanks for the correction. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Strange behavior testing with RightMark Audio Analyzer
Phil Leigh;544644 Wrote: I've sent you the 16/44.1 test file generated by RMAA... The calibration file (calibration.wav) is not used in the tests we are discussing here... You use the calibration file to set the levels !! -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78451 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
I understand what you are saying. I've used REW (all live) and it is extremely fussy of always calibrating levels for everything. When I use Live Testing with RMAA (which in many cases works fine) the software requires you calibrate levels for each test. But the results may be a little more stable doing what you suggested. I'll give a go. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter: No more bug fixes in firmware
andyg;545509 Wrote: Is there a bug filed for that issue? Here is the bug, including the suggested fix by Sean !! http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15693 -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78453 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter: No more bug fixes in firmware
funkstar;544673 Wrote: I don't think they can. The firmware contains the drivers for the wireless which can't be opened, and then you have the SDK cost with is something like $10,000. Good idea, but not going to happen. Who needs wireless. Is that the Xilinx SDK? -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78453 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Transporter: No more bug fixes in firmware
They should put firmware in the public domain for the old platform if they are not going to maintain it and more. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78453 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
By the way one thing I'm really puzzled on with RMAA is I always get better Dynamic range results (96dB) when it directly drives SPDIF from TASCAM. Versus when playing a Flac/Wav and letting Transporter drive SPDIF I get like 93dB. These, in theory, should be the same. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
Phil Leigh;545483 Wrote: If that's true - and I can't/don't want to argue it either way as I don't have any Meridian gear and you do - I'd love to know exactly how it's implemented in the processors. The speakers I understand. All I have is the datasheets you pointed me at (I've read a lot of them!) - and they mostly don't explain HOW things are implemented. A block diagram would be really helpful. I'm now fascinated by this from an engineering perspective - you have piqued my curiousity to the extent that I am now pouring over datasheets for equipment I will never own :-) Have you ever tested the G68 s/pdif outputs into your Tascam? Any level reduction there must be done in the digital domain. Yes I have. SPDIF volume out of G68 to DSP speakers is fixed. One issue though is Speaker Calibration is done digitally. If I reduce volume by calibration then SPDIF goes down. If I reduce by Master Volume it's fixed on SPDIF. I agree a lot of us Meridian owners would love the gory details. A lot is from some folks more knowledgable than I. Some is from older data sheets. Some is from folks talking to folks at Meridian. Some on our forum. The DSP Speaker doesn't change anything in this regard. Meridian does not reinvent the wheel when they discover something. Like their new Apodizing Filters are in speakers and preamps, their upsampling is in speakers and preamps, their volume control is in speakers and preamps. It's repackaging the same technologies. Think of the G95 you looked at as just being inside the speaker. DAC, Preamp and Amp all on one box. Like I said ealier biggest difference in DSP Speaker are they do the crossovers digitally. You can actually hear signature clicks at certain points of adjusting volume on both Analog setups and DSP Setups. If it were pure digital attenuation. You would see a similar reduction in dynamic range when turning level down via G68 volume knob vs turning it down on Transporter knob measuring the same DAC at the same levels on the same sound card. Very different results. That's because transporter is JUST digital attenution, which we know sucks. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
andynormancx;545238 Wrote: Given that the DSP6000, DSP5500HC and DSP5000 appear to have purely digital inputs, how can the volume adjustments made by the G68 be anything else that done digitally ? It sends commands to the DSP Speakers over a serial port to each speaker to adjust it's own preamp. Twin cables run to each speaker, one Serial/one SPDIF. How do think you would control volume if you hooked a CD player direct to a DSP Speaker? Gosh, Meridian sure has confused the average audio enthusiast. The biggest difference is really that Meridian keeps it digital longer, which allows crossovers to be done digitally. So there are 3-4 Channels of DACs, Preamps and Amps in each speaker. This allows for much smaller amps because the crossovers don't eat power in heat dissipation as passive ones do. And each amp can be tuned for their frequency range. They also have DSP code to calibrate for driver behavior to get the response they want. And a bunch of other cool tricks. But they would never do 100% DSP Analog Volume (a.k.a. Digital Attenuation), who would ever do that !! Oh never mind, forgot what forum I'm on :) -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
Here is a boat load of tests. Not all perfect by any means, but gives a good picture of how the TASCAM, Meridian and Transporter behave. I may do some over. http://www.meridianunplugged.com/wiki/index.php?pagename=RMAATests -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
Phil Leigh;545217 Wrote: Yes that is weird - s/pdif should be s/pdif! Unfortunately I can't try this with the Touch as it lacks a digital input... If you run a good external DAC you can. Drive the external DAC with SoundCard (run by RMAA) SPDIF and Measure external DAC output. Drive the external DAC with Touch SPDIF and Measure external DAC output. I need to triple check things though. But looping both Transporter (which can operate as a DAC) and G68 (Basically my External DAC) I get 96dB-ish even on analog. But when ever I play a FLAC/WAV I get 93dB-ish. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Strange behavior testing with RightMark Audio Analyzer
By the way there is 4 ways to run. 1:Live Play - Live Analyze 2:Live Play - Record to Wav - Post Analyze 3:Pre generate Wav - Play Wav - Live Analyze 4:Pre generate Wav - Play Wav - Record to Wav - Post Analyze Your suggesting #4 which I will try. I've done 1,2,3 on spdif to spdif. I've done 1,2,3 spdif to analog. Except #3 fails to analog. Still strange. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78451 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
Phil Leigh;545214 Wrote: Well as I said you're the Meridian expert, but if I wanted to buy one I'd be guided by their datasheets - which seem pretty clear: http://www.meridian-audio.cz/data/meridian-g68.pdf Rotary DSP Volume Control? All the manuals and reviews I can find online state the same thing. Also the G68 has no analogue pass through or direct mode so there are ADC's on all analogue inputs and DAC's on all analogue outputs... I can't find any mention of this hybrid mode. Correct. Meridian has no analog pass through. Everything analog into it goes through ADC (I'm not using any ADC here). That doesn't mean is has no Analog components for Volume Control. I just quoted one from the G95 datasheet (which is an inexpensive unit compared to G68). Meridian has been doing the same hybrid volume for 15-20 years in just about everything. Just to be clear. I'm not connecting analog outputs from Transporter to G68 and treating that as Analog. Here is the G95 data sheet that calls it hybrid. It's not a hybrid mode. Don't read that as a Hybrid Digital/Analog Preamp. It's not. It's the implementation of Volume control has digital and analog components. http://www.meridian-audio.com/data/G95ds-a4.pdf Meridian marketing folks will give it a new name with every product. But's the same thing in all of them. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
Don't read too much into absolute dynamic range differences between two tests. I think if was more patient with levels. I could have brought the Meridian up a tad. I got better at as I went along. The Merdian has less effect than the Transporter. Both are pretty small but they do exist. My Conclusion. Personally I'd never use it on anything. But Replay Gain would be pretty small (-12dB/+6dB). But as Volume control which typicaly needs more range, never in million years would I personally us it. The is the Meridian Test adding digital attenution with Transporter and Bringing Levels back up with Analog knob on Merdian and remeasuring leaving TASCAM fixed. http://meridianunplugged.com/downloads/ComparisonMeridianDigitalAttenuationWavtoWav/Comparison.htm The is the Transporter Test adding digital attenution with Transporter and Bringing Levels back up with Analog knob input Gain on TASCAM. http://meridianunplugged.com/downloads/ComparisonTransporterDigitalAttenuationWavtoWav/Comparison.htm -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing Transporter for Digital Attenuation (Take II)
I keep rerecording wav until the max peak is exactly -.1dB If rmaa is designed to renormalize then, I agree we are just factoring in and out different pieces of hardware. The two analog tests end up being the exact same test. Because 98 - 24 = 76dB on analog knob and 0 on digital. And 86 - 12 = 76dB on analog knob and 0 on digital. Are the exat same conditions. So they perfectly overlay. I never had to touch tascam for this set of tests once calibrated. And all recordings peaked close to -.1dB. It's two different starting points though. One pair I'm at 98 and want to get down to 76dB two ways. One by analog the other by digital by the same amount (24dB). And just measure the difference. The other I'm at 86 and want get down to 76dB two ways. One by analog the other by digital by the same amount (12dB). And measure that difference. Your method of testing is equally factoring in the ADC performance of the sound card into the results. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78477 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 0db distortion?
0dB should be squeaky clean. All the tests I did are basically a full scale test signal in. http://www.meridianunplugged.com/wiki/index.php?pagename=RMAATests This one specifically shows it's pretty clean at 0dB. http://meridianunplugged.com/downloads/RMAATests/TransporterDigitalAttenuationSPDIFLiveToAnalogLive24bit/Comparison.htm Are you referring to SPDIF out or analog out, the tests above are unblanced analog out (RCA). SPDIF out is bitperfect. You can also play with my DAC resolution Tests. Which despite people thinking they are useless. I found two problems with my WinAmp configuration with. One was 24bit is explicity shut off. Another was Replay Gain was on and without Replay Gain Tags it defaulted to -6dB. Any decent system today should be able to hear 18-21bits. If you can't hear at least the 17th bit, something is WRONG !! http://www.meridianunplugged.com/wiki/index.php?pagename=DAC%20Resolution%20Test -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78733 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;544251 Wrote: Exactly, thanks Phil. I think even with analogue boosting each crossover band, which is best case, you're still left with DSP EQ in-band - shifting bits down (in some or perhaps much of the frequency range) - as you say. Edit: I have said all this already but I'm not complaining. In fact I'm pleased that someone else has looked at it and come to similar conclusions - it means that I'm not going crazy! LOL. Darren You guys are willing to grab at anything to explain this. I guess you missed the transporter test that doesn't exactly trounce the squeezebox, does it? Only slightly better. But I'm sure that's f'ked up too for some reason. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;544251 Wrote: Exactly, thanks Phil. I think even with analogue boosting each crossover band, which is best case, you're still left with DSP EQ in-band - shifting bits down (in some or perhaps much of the frequency range) - as you say. Edit: I have said all this already but I'm not complaining. In fact I'm pleased that someone else has looked at it and come to similar conclusions - it means that I'm not going crazy! LOL. Darren You guys are willing to grab at anything to explain this. I guess you missed the transporter test that doesn't exactly trounce the squeezebox, does it? Only slightly better. But I'm sure that's f'ked up too for some reason. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing of Transporter using Digital Attenuation
Phil Leigh;544219 Wrote: Here is a similar test using RMAA on a Touch with a 16/44.1 RMAA generated test tone file... Note that whilst the Touch is slightly noisier than the TP (but not in a way you can actually hear!) it has less distortion. This is probably showing the difference of the TP PSU vs the Touch and the diference in DAC chips and output circuitry. I'm using a soundcard whose ADC outperforms (less noise/distortion) the one in the other test - so this isn't an apples to apples comparison and no conclusions on Touch vs TP can be drawn. And it still shows for a 2-bit Shift you lose almost 1-bit of dynamic range. In my book that's a huge loss for a modest change. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78408 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing of Transporter using Digital Attenuation
cliveb;544233 Wrote: Interesting. The spikes are quite clearly a 60Hz fundamental plus harmonics. My initial assumption was that it is some kind of mains frequency breakthrough. But you say it's to do with the software, which confuses me. What possible software issue would create this effect? Good catch. I'll try to locate it. I hate unbalanced analog it's so susceptible that. I bet if I used balanced it would go away. Doing a different test with the exact same rig (in unbalanced analog as well) on the Meridian it's much cleaner. But there is 60hz bump. http://meridianunplugged.com/downloads/ComparisonG68AnalogCalTest/Comparison.htm -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78408 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;544274 Wrote: erm - I'm not trying to explain anything...I'm trying to get to the bottom of why you feel it so important not to attenuate anything digitally at all in YOUR setup, whilst other people (including me) have no issue with the concept, because they can't hear anything very bad happening. I'm pretty certain it isn't because you have golden ears or magic equipment or voodoo recordings! I'm doing some experiments with Omnia Sel Temperat from Carmina Burana - this is an incredibly quiet redbook recording, with a peak level of -33db! If I'm following you correctly, any attenuaton of this track would decimate it? Thanks for trying. Please stop saying nobody else hears it on their setup as well. There is at least half a dozen folks that jumped in along the way and said, Yup I hear too on my system, and always use Max. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;544274 Wrote: erm - I'm not trying to explain anything...I'm trying to get to the bottom of why you feel it so important not to attenuate anything digitally at all in YOUR setup, whilst other people (including me) have no issue with the concept, because they can't hear anything very bad happening. I'm pretty certain it isn't because you have golden ears or magic equipment or voodoo recordings! I'm doing some experiments with Omnia Sel Temperat from Carmina Burana - this is an incredibly quiet redbook recording, with a peak level of -33db! If I'm following you correctly, any attenuaton of this track would decimate it? Thanks for trying. Please stop saying nobody else hears it on their setup as well. There is at least half a dozen folks that jumped in along the way and said, Yup I hear too on my system, and always use Max. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;544295 Wrote: mswlogo, I was looking for that but I couldn't find it. Can you send a link please? Edit: found it in related thread. Too? Has someone claimed something else is f'ked up? Darren Actually it just may be. But willing to admit errors unlike some folks. I plan to run it with better unbalanced cables and making sure they are no where near AC cables (which I have all shielded) and I'll try to run it on balanced as well. I normally don't run analog on anything. Only place is within my DSP speakers. The Soundcard and Laptop were all on battery power. And other tests using that setup were much cleaner. I should have noticed the 60hz. But it was late. I doubt it's the transporter. So I suspect the analog cable picked it up. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing of Transporter using Digital Attenuation
darrenyeats;544311 Wrote: Ah this is what you referred to on the other thread! Thanks. Again, assuming this is accurate, the degradation is non-linear like with the SB. 2.1db down on the first 12db of attenuation, then a further 8.1db down on the next 12db of attenuation. Of course much lower loss of dynamic range per db of attenuation and, as predicted, yet more non-linear. But I'm surprised the results don't show a much lower loss of dynamic range overall. I don't understand the -6db column. Is the dynamic range really worse at -6db than at -12db? That looks incorrect - or maybe I misunderstand. Was a 16 bit signal used for the test? Darren I agree. It behaved oddly. That 60hz noise may be causing issues. I plan to run it on balanced. But I need to pickup a cable. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78408 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing of Transporter using Digital Attenuation
darrenyeats;544379 Wrote: Cool. I'm interested in a 16/44 signal, personally. Darren It was 16/44. It's in the Report. I will run 24/44 as well. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78408 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Testing of Transporter using Digital Attenuation
darrenyeats;544386 Wrote: Do you mean Sampling mode: 16-bit, 44 kHz? I assumed this was the ADC mode, not the digital signal that is input. Darren Live in and Live out. It's both. All testing was Live in and out. There is only one data rate setting Per Action (Record/Play, Record, Play). I used Record/Play. I was also not sure if RightMark assumes it's always paired since it behaved that way when they are tied together (i.e. live in and live out). I think this is what they mean by loop back mode. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78408 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Strange behavior testing with RightMark Audio Analyzer
Equipment TASCAM US144 MKII, MKI, and EMU 0404 (all similar devices) using ASIO Meridian G68 Transporter What works. If I Test My Meridian driving SPDIF from TASCAM and Recording Analog out with TASCAM it looks pretty clean. One small bump at 60hz. Normal Volume. More importantly Calibration Test passes. If I Test Transporter driving SPDIF from TASCAM and Recording Analog out with TASCAM is looks pretty clean. Max Volume. One small bump at 60Hz. Unbalanced. I did not do Volume test again with better cables and carefully routing unbalanced away from any power cords. Because I want to understand why a WAV won't work first. More importantly Calibration Test passes. What does not work: Then I do the exact same test on Transporter but instead of Driving with SPDIF. I play a .WAV file with test signal. Calibration Test says signal is distorted. I verified I can Play a WAV file on PC out on SPDIF and Analyze it from another PC recording it SPDIF. Got perfect results as expected. So I know the WAV procedure works. My balanced inputs on TASCAM don't seem to be correct level sensitivity to try balanced outputs on Transporter. I think it has something to do with clocks. When I drive the TASCAM (or EMU) the Clock from SPDIF output of TASCAM is used for the ADC of Analog coming back. I even tried using the internal clock of the TASCAM to drive clock on Transporter. I know this was clocking it. Because no data was actually going over it and if I pulled it everything stopped. Also if I changed RightMark to 88.2 the 44.1Khz the song Transport was playing played double speed. So I can record the analog great if driven by SPDIF directly. But I can't record it (and pass calibration tests) if it uses it's own internal clock. If I run the test anyway it's total junk. The exact same thing happens if I record the Meridian Analog while Transporter plays a file. I can record the file digitally out of the Transporter and it works perfect as expected. Since one side is analog you would not think clocks would matter. But I think they do. I'm curious how folks tested SqueezeBox and Touch with Right Mark. I tried 16/44, 24/44 and 24/88. All the same thing. Oh, if I play a DTS file on Transporter Meridian will decode it. Nothing is mucked with. To SqueezeServer and Transporter it looks just like a FLAC with a WAV in it. If Volume is changed from 100 it will not decode. But just in case I wiped SqueezeServer install and reinstalled (including all settings). -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78451 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
