Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Haraldo, any updates on the Lipinski's? -- rydenfan rydenfan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
rydenfan;275244 Wrote: Haraldo, any updates on the Lipinski's? Hey, Thanks for asking :-D Yeah, I've been in touch with the guys some more, but I'm moving slowly right now, I don't think I'll buy another pair of speakers right now. I already own two very well performing sets that I just can't sell I'll just have to wait a bit with that, won't rule out that I'll buy a pair L-505 though I'm thinking DSP and room correction first, and then subwoofers, and I don't think the Lipinski sub's are right for me because I want smaller drivers than the 15 that's provided for in the lipinski sub. regards Harald N -- haraldo Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Not much to add here as this is such a subjective question. I'll be asking the same as my current setup is laughable. NuForce 9's SE V2 running into Def Tech BP2000's using my Modded SB3. OK laugh. Still, it sounds great and from the great number of auditions I've been through trying to sort out the speakers with the associated electronics - and for ~$10K, Vandersteen would probably top the list. I really liked the pair of Wilson Sophia's for pulling the disappearing act.. For myself, I'm might build a pair of Line Arrays from either GR-Reasearch or Selah audio for 1/4 the price! -- NoFlyZone NoFlyZone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
rydenfan;271914 Wrote: If you truly want to discuss a monitor that is used in many mixing and mastering studios then you need to discuss the Lipinski montiors. Take a look at this client list... I sent an email to Lipinski, and the guy (Lipinski himself) called me a few hours later and wondered what he could do to help, and if I needed assistance in acoustics, room, issues or anything else I have never experienced something like this, these guys seem like genuine professionals :-)) MrJB;273210 Wrote: I play in stereo through a pair of the S3.4s with a REL sub. The S 3.4 are fantastic, I really love'em. And with great REL sub(s) I reckon you would never have to look back just enjoy -H -- haraldo Suse Linux / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
haraldo;273329 Wrote: I sent an email to Lipinski, and the guy (Lipinski himself) called me a few hours later and wondered what he could do to help, and if I needed assistance in acoustics, room, issues or anything else I have never experienced something like this, these guys seem like genuine professionals :-)) -H I believe the entire company is Andrew Lipinski (Engineer and designer) and now his son. I am thrilled that I have turned somebody on to them. I really hope you will keep me updated with how things progress. -- rydenfan rydenfan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
rydenfan;273346 Wrote: I am thrilled that I have turned somebody on to them. I really hope you will keep me updated with how things progress. You bet. :-)) My wife's not going to like this, I have two sets of very well performing speakers (Duntech PCL-15 + Meadowlark Kestrel2), and I'm not going to sell them! The Duntech PCL-15 is amongst the best imaging speakers in the world... at any price, but they are bears to drive, there's no bass, and they're amongst most inefficient speakers in the world, and they're just plain ugly to look at, and. They sound like magic.. Still, The Lipinski L-505 seems like something I really have to check out. In the world of insanely overpriced speakers and equipment, this seem to me like something that provides real genuine value. Cheers Harald N -- haraldo Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
rydenfan;272932 Wrote: I still believe I should have ordered the littler L-505 instead of my current speakers, but such is life. You should really hear them if you get a chance. I wouldn't be surprised if the smaller L-505 would be even better than the larger ones for two reasons: - Vifa and Scan-speak ring-radiator are incredibly fast and if they are paired with midranges that's not likewise very fast you may have issues in the crossover region, this means those tweeters often work better with smaller drivers - I believe smaller drivers are generally better and faster and provides more detail, but then you may have to match with very competent and likewise fast stereo subwoofers Re Dynaudio. I have never heard a Dynaudio speaker that's not well sounding, like the Contour S3.4, incredibly fine sounding speakers, almost bought a pair of those Regards Harald N -- haraldo Suse Linux / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
I met a guy called Dieter Ennemoser when I was covering the Vienna hifi show in 1999. An Austrian violin-maker by trade, he had produced a philosophy and associated laquer (C37) which he was using to treat existing components, and to create his own. Anyway he dragged me off to listen to his HUGE Archaeopteryx speakers, which at the time were selling for about 20,000 quid. They has and 18 C37 laquered bass unit that crossed over to the tweeter at 3k. Contrary to expectation, these speakers were the best thing I heard in the whole show. By no means what you would call a conventional presentation - but boy did they make fun music. My point being that big drivers can also work. Then again I have no idea how the speakers would stand up to extended listening. He still makes them though! http://www.ennemoser.com/ -- bigfool1956 David Ayers Music is what counts, hifi just helps us enjoy it more bigfool1956's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13782 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
bigfool1956;273158 Wrote: Contrary to expectation, these speakers were the best thing I heard in the whole show. By no means what you would call a conventional presentation - but boy did they make fun music. My point being that big drivers can also work. Thanks - You really got me there :-)) Guess there are NO rules without exceptions -- haraldo Suse Linux / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
I play in stereo through a pair of the S3.4s with a REL sub. For 5.1, I add in a SC center (which is really nice), and 2x Audience 42Ws (not as nice, but great for mounting on the wall with their special bracket, and fine for now as Rear Left and Right). One sits up and takes notice of a good movie soundtrack on this system! I also have a pair of Dyn Focus 110s for a smaller room. To be honest, I don't think I'll ever bother looking at another speaker line, Dynaudios and their extraordinary tweeters are just right for my ears. -- MrJB MrJB's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15616 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
rydenfan;271914 Wrote: If you truly want to discuss a monitor that is used in many mixing and mastering studios then you need to discuss the Lipinski montiors. Take a look at this client list... http://www.lipinskisound.com/customer.aspx http://www.lipinskisound.com/wstl.aspx Rydenfan, this looks like fantastic speakers!! If you ever heard genuine phase coherent speakers in a proper setup, you'll never forget about it This actually looks like the real stuff. I believe that I would much rather but something like this with fast subwoofers than BW 802D (which in my opinion is slow), and you may even have some money left for a gift to your wife :-)) Cheers Harald N -- haraldo Suse Linux / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
They are most certainly the real deal! With the big L-707 you have the ability to order them with a 600 watt monoblock built into the stand! I have heard a 5 channel system of them and it remains one of the most moving musical experiences of my life. I still believe I should have ordered the littler L-505 instead of my current speakers, but such is life. You should really hear them if you get a chance. -- rydenfan rydenfan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Everyone has there own favorite speaker (s). My favorite right now is the Dynaudio S3.4. The most natural sound I have ever heard. You just have to find yours. http://www.dynaudiousa.com/products/contour/s34/s34.htm -- MrJB MrJB's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15616 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Presently using SB3/DAC1/Arcam/Dynaudio speakers. Dynaudios are very natural sounding. Listen to some Dyn's, the bigger the better, you might be surprised. Have fun. -- MrJB MrJB's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15616 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
If you truly want to discuss a monitor that is used in many mixing and mastering studios then you need to discuss the Lipinski montiors. Take a look at this client list... http://www.lipinskisound.com/customer.aspx http://www.lipinskisound.com/wstl.aspx -- rydenfan rydenfan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
haraldo;26 Wrote: I reckon it's difficult to discuss such speakers without bringing the power amplifiers into the loop. Does anybody know which amps the famous UK studios are using? I have read that some studios are using very expensive Chord Poweramps, while I have also heard about Electrocompaniet Nemo. The reasoning behind this, from me, is that I reckon it's not possible to get the full benefit of the larger BW without powerhouse amplifiers. When I auditioned the 802D they were driven by quite expensive / large Classe poweramps, and they were just not able to make the speakers come alive. If you're auditioning speakers, perhaps you should also bring your own amplifier, if possible. It's a significant factor in the equation I bought speakers 15 years ago realizing afterwards that I didn't have the amplifiers to run them properly, that's not much fun. Some reviewers actually use Large Krell amps (like FPB-600cx) when reviewing $1500 BW speakers. No one would use such a setup in the real world An example: the Quattro Wood, will obviously be much easier on the amps because it's got a powered subwoofer and a passive high-pass filter in the signal path before the power amplifier. This makes a significant difference. Regards -H Couldn't have said it better myself. Some time ago I bought my Reference 9's and promptly learned a good deal about how good amplifiers compare favorably with welders. I've heard fine examples of B W's and sadly I've had friends that were unduly proud. The amp was the issue. I would highlight earlier references to Dynaudio. As amp requirements go, they are a handful but with adequate amps (not watts,) they are stunningly broad and accurate. P -- pski pski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15574 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
wyrob1;263229 Wrote: My SB3 setup is giving me plenty of enjoyment, but time for a speaker upgrade. My current Monitor Audio S10s are OK but cannot keep up with my new amps (Murano Audio IcePower based P-500S [EMAIL PROTECTED]#937;), show full benefit of the DAC1 clarity, nor fill our large listening space. Some internet review research led me to the BW 802Ds and a listening test at a local store blew me away. But at $10,000 this is a big step. Wondering if anyone had experience with these speakers and/or any other loudspeakers that could offer similar quality / range to the 802Ds Many thanks SB3 - Benchmark DAC 1 - Murano Audio p-500S - Monitor Audio S10 So, you made any decisions on where you're going? It would be interesting to hear where you're landing Regards Harald N -- haraldo Suse Linux / SC7 - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 Everything is difficult before it's easy haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
wyrob1;263229 Wrote: My SB3 setup is giving me plenty of enjoyment, but time for a speaker upgrade. My current Monitor Audio S10s are OK but cannot keep up with my new amps (Murano Audio IcePower based P-500S [EMAIL PROTECTED]), show full benefit of the DAC1 clarity, nor fill our large listening space. Some internet review research led me to the BW 802Ds and a listening test at a local store blew me away. But at $10,000 this is a big step. Wondering if anyone had experience with these speakers and/or any other loudspeakers that could offer similar quality / range to the 802Ds Many thanks SB3 - Benchmark DAC 1 - Murano Audio p-500S - Monitor Audio S10 so many flavors and arguments! I remembered John Bowers as a little gentleman w, huge ears standing next to the odd looking original 801, this was in 1980, when every other speakers were rectangular boxes. He talked about edge diffractions, cone breakup, cabinet vibrations AND laser interferometry, strange stuffs indeed, a good 15 years ahead of industry. I couldn't afford the 801, no sir, but the $250/pr DM110 sounded better than my ESS AMT ($1200) squackboxes. Then came the 802FS as my next system for 17yrs (drove from Oregon to Vancouver BC and back for a demo unit that i could afford), and the N802 since 2002 (another trip to Bellevue and back to save some pesos). To sum it up, i appreciate the improvement in quality more than someone who just jump into a BW from another brand, because for very little money, the bottom rungs BWs already give you excellent sounds. I still have all of them but due to its size i gave the 802FS to my daughter because she has a huge listening room. SB3MF A3.242NAK PA7N802NICE! -- empty99 empty99's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3488 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
I have never understood the reasoning the Superchargers, they are essentially just another set of Power amplifier that you add after your power amplifier Why have double set of Power Amplifiers instead of just one that does it all I don't believe that just throwing power at your rig solves all issues. To me it sounds strange to add another poweramp instead of just upgrading Regards -Harald N -- haraldo Suse Linux - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
haraldo;265187 Wrote: I have never understood the reasoning the Superchargers, they are essentially just another set of Power amplifier that you add after your power amplifier Why have double set of Power Amplifiers instead of just one that does it all I don't believe that just throwing power at your rig solves all issues. To me it sounds strange to add another poweramp instead of just upgrading I completely second that. More cables and more connections are a no no for me. Plus I dont believe at all in Musical Fidelity's power=better marketing stunt. However, still many speaker manufacturers continue to design very inefficient speakers, and that means business for MF and other megawatt builders (krell, bryston, etc). Its not a question of superpower amps, but a question of super inefficient speakers. -- GuyDebord Reference3A Royal Master monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration, REL Strata 5 sub. AMPS: Pathos Classic One MKIII's in mono config. ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient, Satisfy Carbon Lyra Helikon SL, ASR MiniBasis SQ preamp, link: WireWorld SilverEclipse 5.2. DIGITAL: SlimDevices Transporter, link: AcousticZen Silver Reference2 XLRs. POWER: Isotek MiniSub GII, Isotek Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech SPX30 MKII (Transporter), van den Hul Mainstream (Pathos) van den Hul Mainserver (ASR). GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
GuyDebord;265190 Wrote: I completely second that. More cables and more connections are a no no for me. Plus I dont believe at all in Musical Fidelity's power=better marketing stunt. However, still many speaker manufacturers continue to design very inefficient speakers, and that means business for MF and other megawatt builders (krell, bryston, etc). Its not a question of superpower amps, but a question of super inefficient speakers. Couldn't agree more :-D Musical Fidelity is creating a need that isn't there in the first place -Harald :-D -- haraldo Suse Linux - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Personally I'm in the camp that likes to listen at louder or more realistic volume levels. However, the maximum loudness of a system can work against its performance at low listening levels. You are limited by the dynamic range of all the equipment in the chain, and even the best equipment has a finite range. For example, I believe this factor more often that not benefits valve amps in level-matched comparisons against SS amps. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
GuyDebord;265229 Wrote: the only reason you would need 500w to get decent levels lies in the inefficiency of the speakers used. Fair enough, but I'm talking about comparisons between amps and you keep the same speakers for such comparisons. -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
opaqueice;265239 Wrote: I'm confused. By dynamic range of an amp I assume you just mean maximum power before clipping (maybe divided by noise floor), and almost all solid state amps are capable of supplying more power than almost all tube amps (and with lower noise). So yes, tube amps in general have considerably less dynamic range than SS. Is that controversial? By dynamic range I meant the DIFFERENCE between the highest signal the amplifier can output to the amplifiers output noise. And this difference (ratio) is usually given in db's and certainly not in power units as your comment: maximum power before clipping might suggest . DR is more dependent on power regulation circuits whose output DR might read as compressed and yes, tube amps in SOME cases have simpler pr circuits. There is nothing controversial about that declaration, what is problematic is that it seems to take this ratio as the only thing important to achieve realistic audio levels. DR alone doesnt say much and using DR to disqualify tubes is very very simplistic. -- GuyDebord Reference3A Royal Master monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration, REL Strata 5 sub. AMPS: Pathos Classic One MKIII's in mono config. ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient, Satisfy Carbon Lyra Helikon SL, ASR MiniBasis SQ preamp, link: WireWorld SilverEclipse 5.2. DIGITAL: SlimDevices Transporter, link: AcousticZen Silver Reference2 XLRs. POWER: Isotek MiniSub GII, Isotek Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech SPX30 MKII (Transporter), van den Hul Mainstream (Pathos) van den Hul Mainserver (ASR). GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
GuyDebord;265263 Wrote: By dynamic range I meant the DIFFERENCE between the highest signal the amplifier can output to the amplifiers output noise. And this difference (ratio) Difference and ratio are not the same thing. You mean ratio. is usually given in db's and certainly not in other power units as your comment: maximum power before clipping might suggest . Not at all. The maximum power divided by the power in the noise floor doesn't have units, and is conventionally expressed in dB. DR is more dependent on power regulation circuits whose output DR might read as compressed and yes, tube amps in SOME cases have simpler pr circuits. There is nothing controversial about that declaration, what is problematic is that it seems to take this ratio as the only thing important to achieve realistic audio levels. DR alone doesnt say much and using DR to disqualify tubes is very very simplistic. Besides its an old argument that doesnt say much today. Fine - you agree that tube amps almost always have lower DR, right? I wasn't drawing any conclusions from that; I was just confused by your earlier comment. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Andrew B.;264594 Wrote: Chord and Bryston are popular amps in the mastering world. Not cheap. But having active speakers like the ATCs solves this drive problem and eliminates a source of distortion (the passive crossover). Andrew My opinion: Another benefit of active speakers are improved dynamics, there are no passive components between the amp and the speaker and that also clearly improve the dynamics... Improvement dependent on the complexity of the filter, ref the extremely complex filters in some BW models, that steal power and dynamics -Harald N -- haraldo Suse Linux - SB3 - Benchmark DAC1 - Krell KAV400xi - Meadowlark Kestrel2 haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Get yourself Musical Fidelity Superchargers. They'll drive anything to hell back, and if you wish to keep the sonic signature of your amp (even if it's a low-wattage SET) you can do that, too. Can't lose. -- selfdivider selfdivider's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14941 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
haraldo;26 Wrote: I reckon it's difficult to discuss such speakers without bringing the power amplifiers into the loop. Does anybody know which amps the famous UK studios are using? I have read that some studios are using very expensive Chord Poweramps, while I have also heard about Electrocompaniet Nemo. The reasoning behind this, from me, is that I reckon it's not possible to get the full benefit of the larger BW without powerhouse amplifiers. When I auditioned the 802D they were driven by quite expensive / large Classe poweramps, and they were just not able to make the speakers come alive. If you're auditioning speakers, perhaps you should also bring your own amplifier, if possible. It's a significant factor in the equation I bought speakers 15 years ago realizing afterwards that I didn't have the amplifiers to run them properly, that's not much fun. Some reviewers actually use Large Krell amps (like FPB-600cx) when reviewing $1500 BW speakers. No one would use such a setup in the real world An example: the Quattro Wood, will obviously be much easier on the amps because it's got a powered subwoofer and a passive high-pass filter in the signal path before the power amplifier. This makes a significant difference. Regards -H Chord and Bryston are popular amps in the mastering world. Not cheap. But having active speakers like the ATCs solves this drive problem and eliminates a source of distortion (the passive crossover). Andrew -- Andrew B. = SB3- Benchmark DAC1 - ATC CA2 pre - ATC SCM50ASL active speakers... nice! Andrew B.'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Phil Leigh;264361 Wrote: I'm not disagreeing - commercially, you have to eat your own dogfood... But my point really was that if you can create well-balanced masters then the speakers are fundamentally OK. The sound on these CD's is not just to do with compression (they use plenty, especially on vocals!) or the agreed abscence of brick-wall limiting, but also the quality of the end-to-end recording chain. Anyway, Linn/Naim was just an example. Abbey Road has been all over BW for years and no-one complains about their masters - they are held in high esteem. I'm not a big fan of the BW sound by the way - except for the Nautilus which is just...wow! [...] A good mix makes mastering much easier. Re. Linn/Naim, I was talking about master buss compression rather than track compression. I think you will find that one thing that distinguishes the Linn/Naim approach is the relatively small amount of compression across the main stereo buss either in mixing or mastering. Abbey Road is more famous for recording and mixing than for mastering, I would say. I realise that they also have mastering and surround mastering facilities, and that they mainly use BW Nautilus 801 and 802 (although they have Questeds as well). They wouldn't use bad speakers, even if they got them for nothing. BW are good speakers but I think the active ATCs are possibly better and certainly more convenient in a domestic context (no need to house some mega amps in the system to cope with the hard load). Andrew -- Andrew B. = SB3- Benchmark DAC1 - ATC CA2 pre - ATC SCM50ASL active speakers... nice! Andrew B.'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Andrew B.;264155 Wrote: I was assuming that was the case - and also discounting it as a special case (a rather biased endorsement). The reason for the high technical quality of the Linn and Naim recordings (I own several of each, not least since I am a former Naimee) is the recording techniques used and the lack of squashing compression applied to the master buss, so that the music still has proper dynamics. I don't think this has much to do with their choice of mastering speakers. Andrew I'm not disagreeing - commercially, you have to eat your own dogfood... But my point really was that if you can create well-balanced masters then the speakers are fundamentally OK. The sound on these CD's is not just to do with compression (they use plenty, especially on vocals!) or the agreed abscence of brick-wall limiting, but also the quality of the end-to-end recording chain. Anyway, Linn/Naim was just an example. Abbey Road has been all over BW for years and no-one complains about their masters - they are held in high esteem. I'm not a big fan of the BW sound by the way - except for the Nautilus which is just...wow! I could go into a lengthy discourse about how the best speakers to listen to any recording are the ones they were mastered on. That's what produced the sound we were intended to hear. Recovering more detail (for example) is fascinating but I don't want to hear Ringo's drum stool squeak, because I'm pretty sure if George Martin had heard it at the time he would have fixed it! I don't want to know about 3-d soundstaging because I can guarantee that no-one was trying to create it in the first place oh, and it isn't there anyway ;o), and i don't want to know about fantastic dynamics that would have been compressed or limited out had they been heard at the time. It's always interesting to hear artists/engineers opinions on systems when they listen to their own records on them. These people actually have a valid opinion on what things should sound like. We can only say what we prefer, not what is more accurate. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
I reckon it's difficult to discuss such speakers without bringing the power amplifiers into the loop. Does anybody know which amps the famous UK studios are using? I have read that some studios are using very expensive Chord Poweramps, while I have also heard about Electrocompaniet Nemo. The reasoning behind this, from me, is that I reckon it's not possible to get the full benefit of the larger BW without powerhouse amplifiers. When I auditioned the 802D they were driven by quite expensive / large Classe poweramps, and they were just not able to make the speakers come alive. If you're auditioning speakers, perhaps you should also bring your own amplifier, if possible. It's a significant factor in the equation I bought speakers 15 years ago realizing afterwards that I didn't have the amplifiers to run them properly, that's not much fun. Some reviewers actually use Large Krell amps (like FPB-600cx) when reviewing $1500 BW speakers. No one would use such a setup in the real world An example: the Quattro Wood, will obviously be much easier on the amps because it's got a powered subwoofer and a passive high-pass filter in the signal path before the power amplifier. This makes a significant difference. Regards -H -- haraldo haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
haraldo;26 Wrote: I reckon it's difficult to discuss such speakers without bringing the power amplifiers into the loop. Does anybody know which amps the famous UK studios are using? I have read that some studios are using very expensive Chord Poweramps, while I have also heard about Electrocompaniet Nemo. The reasoning behind this, from me, is that I reckon it's not possible to get the full benefit of the larger BW without powerhouse amplifiers. When I auditioned the 802D they were driven by quite expensive / large Classe poweramps, and they were just not able to make the speakers come alive. If you're auditioning speakers, perhaps you should also bring your own amplifier, if possible. It's a significant factor in the equation I bought speakers 15 years ago realizing afterwards that I didn't have the amplifiers to run them properly, that's not much fun. Some reviewers actually use Large Krell amps (like FPB-600cx) when reviewing $1500 BW speakers. No one would use such a setup in the real world An example: the Quattro Wood, will obviously be much easier on the amps because it's got a powered subwoofer and a passive high-pass filter in the signal path before the power amplifier. This makes a significant difference. Regards -H Harald I agree - big BW's need lots...LOTS of power to drive them properly. Abbey Road uses Classe amps (nice!). -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Phil Leigh;263652 Wrote: I suppose you know that a lot of the CD's we enjoy are mastered/balanced using BW's...(not necessarily 802D's for sure, but...) I don't personally know any (UK) mastering studios that uses other than top-end BW, Spendor, ATC, Linn, Naim, Harbeth, PMC etc. I also suppose you have also seen their ads advertising their speakers in a recording studio environment? Sponsorships are great in this neoliberal times. The truth of the matter is that a lot of mastering is done in a lot of parlance sources including headphones; you said it yourself, Spendor, ATC, Linn and I can add AE's, Dynaudio, Tannoy and so many non audiophile brands, plus double the variety in selecting passive or active monitors. And lets not forget that normally professional monitors cost less than many high-end audiophile monitors. Dont get me wrong, BW are not bad speakers, but they spend a lot of their budget in heavy branding campaigns which the majority swallow. Lets say they are not the best in the ratio of what you get for the money, Almost all the time I discover how much better are smaller and less known audio companies, this is why I prefer them. A lot of the value you get with the likes of BW is the value of the BRAND, which is the same seducer that makes people grab Louis Vuitton's instead of others... -- GuyDebord Reference 3A Royal Master monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration, REL Strata 5 sub. AMP: Pathos Classic One MKIII. ANALOGUE: Michell Gyro SE, Technoarm Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Mini Basis SQ phono preamp, link: WireWorld Silver Eclipse 5.2. DIGITAL: SlimDevices Transporter, link: Acoustic Zen Silver Reference2 XLRs. POWER: Isotek MiniSub GII, Isotek Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech SPX30 MKII (Transporter), van den Hul Mainstream (Pathos) van den Hul Mainserver (ASR). GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
GuyDebord;263886 Wrote: [...] The truth of the matter is that a lot of mastering is done in a lot of parlance sources including headphones; you said it yourself, Spendor, ATC, Linn and I can add AE's, Dynaudio, Tannoy and so many non audiophile brands, plus double the variety in selecting passive or active monitors. And lets not forget that normally professional monitors cost less than many high-end audiophile monitors. [...] Sorry Guy, I have to pick you up on this. Perhaps you are confusing mixing with mastering. I have never seen or heard of anyone mastering on headphones. Occasionally people may mix or mix-check on headphones. But mastering is a very separate and serious discipline, carried out in highly refined audio environments (lots of acoustic treatment, minimal equipment and distractions, built for the task) on FULL RANGE LOUDSPEAKER SYSTEMS. Mastering is instructive for hifi hobbyists since it is a closer approximation (than mixing) to what they might want to achieve with their own systems. The first lesson from mastering should probably be the importance of improving the listening room environment rather than fiddling with cables and power leads! The speakers used for mastering are often those available at the high end of consumer audio: the big BWs, ATCs, PMCs, Tannoys, Eggleston (I have never heard of a mastering studio using Linn or Naim but I concede that it is possible). Sometimes these are actively driven and sometimes passively with expensive hi-fi type amps made by people like Bryston, Chord and Pass Labs. BW 8xx series are serious speakers and 802s are used for mastering for reasons other than simply the brand name. I agree that they may not be the best value, particularly when combined with a suitably powerful amp, which is why I often suggest people listen to the active ATCs as an alternative. Andrew -- Andrew B. = SB3- Benchmark DAC1 - ATC CA2 pre - ATC SCM50ASL active speakers... nice! Andrew B.'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
GuyDebord;263886 Wrote: Dont get me wrong, BW are not bad speakers, but they spend a lot of their budget in heavy branding campaigns which the majority swallow. Lets say they are not the best in the ratio of what you get for the money, Almost all the time I discover how much better are smaller and less known audio companies, this is why I prefer them. A lot of the value you get with the likes of BW is the value of the BRAND, which is the same seducer that makes people grab Louis Vuitton's instead of others... Like Andrew, I think you're being a bit harsh here. Sure BW spend a lot on brand advertising, but this is a rational business decision - it sells speakers. Their business model is to ensure high sales so they can spend money on RD and get economies of scale. This is different from my speaker manufacturer's, which is lower volume and lower advertising, but there's nothing wrong with BW. Comparing them to Louis Vuitton is disingenuous - fashion brands deliberately price high to become exclusive, and make obscene per item profits. BW do loads of RD and produce a product that is at the leading edge of the market. You may not like it, but all those studios would not use it for mastering if it were not good enough, even if they got it for free. So to the OP: pay attention to all the specific recommendations, and spend time listening, as speakers have a big influence on the character of the sound and it's all very personal, but if you prefer the 802Ds you'll have a great speaker. Not as good as my OBX-R2, obviously... ;) -- adamslim Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others SB+, EAR V20, Living Voice OBX-R2s plus some other stuff SB3, Charlize, Harbeth HL-P3ES adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
You may have already considered unbox speakersBut if you haven't, you should definitely try to listen to the Martin-Logan Summits. I would also suggest you try to find a local owner of the Orions. http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_us.htm You can sign up and post a request to audition on the Orion User Group Board: http://orion.quicksytes.com/viewforum.php?f=1 I am currently building a pair of the Orion/Thors and expecting this will be my last speaker. Happy searching. George -- gsawdy gsawdy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14330 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Andrew B.;263897 Wrote: Sorry Guy, I have to pick you up on this. Perhaps you are confusing mixing with mastering. I have never seen or heard of anyone mastering on headphones. Occasionally people may mix or mix-check on headphones. But mastering is a very separate and serious discipline, carried out in highly refined audio environments (lots of acoustic treatment, minimal equipment and distractions, built for the task) on FULL RANGE LOUDSPEAKER SYSTEMS. Mastering is instructive for hifi hobbyists since it is a closer approximation (than mixing) to what they might want to achieve with their own systems. The first lesson from mastering should probably be the importance of improving the listening room environment rather than fiddling with cables and power leads! The speakers used for mastering are often those available at the high end of consumer audio: the big BWs, ATCs, PMCs, Tannoys, Eggleston (I have never heard of a mastering studio using Linn or Naim but I concede that it is possible). Sometimes these are actively driven and sometimes passively with expensive hi-fi type amps made by people like Bryston, Chord and Pass Labs. BW 8xx series are serious speakers and 802s are used for mastering for reasons other than simply the brand name. I agree that they may not be the best value, particularly when combined with a suitably powerful amp, which is why I often suggest people listen to the active ATCs as an alternative. Andrew Andrew - the Linn and Naim labels use their own speakers...and their CD sound quality is generally accepted as top notch. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Phil Leigh;263952 Wrote: Andrew - the Linn and Naim labels use their own speakers...and their CD sound quality is generally accepted as top notch. I was assuming that was the case - and also discounting it as a special case (a rather biased endorsement). The reason for the high technical quality of the Linn and Naim recordings (I own several of each, not least since I am a former Naimee) is the recording techniques used and the lack of squashing compression applied to the master buss, so that the music still has proper dynamics. I don't think this has much to do with their choice of mastering speakers. Andrew -- Andrew B. = SB3- Benchmark DAC1 - ATC CA2 pre - ATC SCM50ASL active speakers... nice! Andrew B.'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Andrew B.;263897 Wrote: Sorry Guy, I have to pick you up on this. Perhaps you are confusing mixing with mastering. I have never seen or heard of anyone mastering on headphones. Occasionally people may mix or mix-check on headphones. But mastering is a very separate and serious discipline, carried out in highly refined audio environments (lots of acoustic treatment, minimal equipment and distractions, built for the task) on FULL RANGE LOUDSPEAKER SYSTEMS. Andrew You are right Andrew, headphones separate stereo very differently than monitors and in a mastering session what you want to trust among other characteristics is the sound separation in space, but headphones are still used to catch errors in timing/notes and tweak noise levels; even if its occasionally they become part of the process, I never mentioned they were the primary tools for this task. Im sorry if I offended any BW owner, and I repeat that I dot believe theyre bad or that they dont do RD but we all know they also do a lot of PR and Marketing, and I believe that when an audio company spends so much in that, a big portion of the value of your purchase object is just that and people feel good owning that. Bose and BO are other great examples of those type of companies and Im sure we are more opinionated on this brands since they dont target the ultra small niche of the hifi world, we dont see their ads in the audiophile magazines therefore we believe they dont belong there. Image building and product targeting go a very long way in the psyche of buyers, and by common sense I cannot trust so much in the performance value of what this corporate companies offer. Check out this link of an easy article I read a few weeks ago, its not directly related to audio but im sure you can find many coincidences with the practice of our hobby. Let me know what you think... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7187577.stm -- GuyDebord Reference3A Royal Master monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration, REL Strata 5 sub. AMPS: Pathos Classic One MKIII's in mono config. ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient, Satisfy Carbon Lyra Helikon SL, ASR MiniBasis SQ preamp, link: WireWorld SilverEclipse 5.2. DIGITAL: SlimDevices Transporter, link: AcousticZen Silver Reference2 XLRs. POWER: Isotek MiniSub GII, Isotek Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech SPX30 MKII (Transporter), van den Hul Mainstream (Pathos) van den Hul Mainserver (ASR). GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
iPhone;263497 Wrote: With $10,000 to spend, this would be my two cents. Are the 802Ds a good speaker? They are. Are they a great speaker for the money? In my humble opinion, they are not. About 60 percent of the money is in the cabinet and manufacturing process with about 30 percent going into the drivers and cross-over (10% in other). Do you want your money's worth in sound or a nice finished over priced cabinet (they even made a DVD to try and justify the outrageous manufacturing of the cabinets)? The midrange on the 802D is also a tad weak due to being to large and over done on fancy material. (18Wx35Lx9H). And of all of this percentages come from an already reduced budget since they have to pay millions for their 1 and 2 page spreads, in so many magazines around the world, showrooms, audio shows, etc BW's are a corporate speakers -- GuyDebord Reference 3A Royal Master monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration, REL Strata 5 sub. AMP: Pathos Classic One MKIII. ANALOGUE: Michell Gyro SE, Technoarm Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Mini Basis SQ phono preamp, link: WireWorld Silver Eclipse 5.2. DIGITAL: SlimDevices Transporter, link: Acoustic Zen Silver Reference2 XLRs. POWER: Isotek MiniSub GII, Isotek Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech SPX30 MKII (Transporter), van den Hul Mainstream (Pathos) van den Hul Mainserver (ASR). GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
wyrob1;263229 Wrote: Wondering if anyone had experience with these speakers and/or any other loudspeakers that could offer similar quality / range to the 802Ds There are many, many options at that price point. Personally I like BWs (and owned a lower-grade model in the past), but I agree that the best advice is to audition as many as possible. I spent about a year and a half searching (on and off, obviously!) for my next set of speakers. I burned a CD of very well-recorded tracks I know well and brought it with me each time I auditioned a new pair, and I highly recommend that. I went to several high-end shows, and quite a few dealer showrooms and personal listening rooms. In the end, the two speakers I was most impressed by (regardless of price) were a pair of $50,000 MBLs and the Linkwitz Orions. I now own the Orions, which incidentally can be had for less than the BWs, even including the active crossover, custom woodwork, and a suitable amplifier. (And by the way I'm running a Benchmark DAC1 into them, and it sounds great.) -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
I suppose you know that a lot of the CD's we enjoy are mastered/balanced using BW's...(not necessarily 802D's for sure, but...) I don't personally know any (UK) mastering studios that uses other than top-end BW, Spendor, ATC, Linn, Naim, Harbeth, PMC etc. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
I believe that the most dramatic upgrade you can make are the speakers, and no matter what equipment you have or dac you connect, they will always be limited (or not) by the reproduction capacity of your speakers which are the immediate and most important link between your electronics and you. Saying this, you have to find a dealer of Reference 3a speakers and audition the Grand Veena's, they retail for around 7,000 and I believe they are the best speakers that your money can buy, at least they are the best I have heard including much pricier Wilson's, Goldmund's, Revel's, Bw's, Sunus Faber's, etc. I am considering the change from my beloved R3a Royal Master's which already were superior in the Mid-High range than my neighbor's BW 800N's (we were always comparing his 18,000 euro speakers with my 5,000 euro monitors and regarding everything except bass (but then I have a REL), he always ended a bit frustrated, but of course kept defending his manly looking BW's) They are incredibly fast, super efficient, transparent and extremely revealing, but most importantly their sound is truly alive. If you trust more the professional reviewers, In the the recent Absolute Sound's editor choice awards, they were one of the 4 speakers in Harry Pearson's select list, the others retailing for 146,000; 74,000 and 12,000. HP said this about the grand veeena's: Reference 3a Grand Veena speakers $7000 reference3a.com Review to come. But let this be said for the here and now: At about a tenth of the cost of its nearest sonic competitor, this speaker is a stunning achievement and perfect for the not- too-well-heeled music lover who doesn#8217;t live in a cathedral-sized space. The other very different option I would consider apart from the R3a's are the Quad 2805's which retail for 9,000. Dont buy the BW's until you get to listen to them, you and your wallet wont regret it. Good luck, -- GuyDebord Reference 3A Royal Master monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration, REL Strata 5 sub. AMP: Pathos Classic One MKIII. ANALOGUE: Michell Gyro SE, Technoarm Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Mini Basis SQ phono preamp, link: WireWorld Silver Eclipse 5.2. DIGITAL: SlimDevices Transporter, link: Acoustic Zen Silver Reference2 XLRs. POWER: Isotek MiniSub GII, Isotek Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech SPX30 MKII (Transporter), van den Hul Mainstream (Pathos) van den Hul Mainserver (ASR). GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
I have listened to the 802D some times and honestly I have not been that impressed by them, but that's strongly my subjective opinion. You can get Vandersteen Quattro, Thiel CS 3.7 or Dynaudio Confidence C2 at these or lower pricetags, is'n that right? A speaker like Vienna Acoustics Mahler is also better than BW 802d (In my mind!) Or if you're lucky at the second hand market, Meadowlark Audio Blue Heron 2. I believe all these speakers provide better value than the BW. Remember, the speaker that you're supposed to be living with for many many many years is not necessarily the speaker that impresses you the most at first listening. My impression is that the best speakers are the ones that doesn't sound like very much at first listen, because they are sooo clear and neutral... Perhaps this sounds like crap but I believe it's important to have an opportunity to live with the speakers for a while before you commit, especially the pricetag considered. All speakers at $10,000 are very impressive, but some may provide you more musical pleasure than others... Regards Harald N -- haraldo haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Trust yourself and your ears !!! Don't trust the reviewers, because they're living of the advertising money from the brands that's reviewed in their magazines, I don't believe they're always being straight -H -- haraldo haraldo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13472 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Trust your own ears and get what sounds good to you. Your BW dealers should have a program that would let you audition the speakers in your home with your equipment. I'd advise that you do this as your next step in order to make sure your current equipment and room will sound good with the 802D's. I have the 803D's and love them. They want a very strong amp and the slightest imperfection in your source will be apparent (assuming you have a good listening environment). -- Ben Diss 'SB3' (http://www.slimdevices.com/pi_squeezebox.html) - 'Lavry DA10' (http://www.lavryengineering.com/productspage_da_10.html) - 'BAT VK-31SE' (http://www.balanced.com/products/line/Vk-31SE/index.html) - 'Halo A21' (http://www.parasound.com/halo/a21.php) - 'BW 803D' (http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20803D) Ben Diss's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4289 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
Definitely don't trust the reviews. I like the BWs. Can't go wrong w/those. As was pointed out, at that price, it is worth listening to a lot of speakers. I have been very impressed w/Von Schweikert and Dali. I own Aerial 9s, which I love and highly recommend. Check Audiogon for great prices. -- Shredder Shredder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11380 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
wyrob1;263229 Wrote: My SB3 setup is giving me plenty of enjoyment, but time for a speaker upgrade. My current Monitor Audio S10s are OK but cannot keep up with my new amps (Murano Audio IcePower based P-500S [EMAIL PROTECTED]#937;), show full benefit of the DAC1 clarity, nor fill our large listening space. Some internet review research led me to the BW 802Ds and a listening test at a local store blew me away. But at $10,000 this is a big step. Wondering if anyone had experience with these speakers and/or any other loudspeakers that could offer similar quality / range to the 802Ds Many thanks SB3 - Benchmark DAC 1 - Murano Audio p-500S - Monitor Audio S10 With $10,000 to spend, this would be my two cents. Are the 802Ds a good speaker? They are. Are they a great speaker for the money? In my humble opinion, they are not. About 60 percent of the money is in the cabinet and manufacturing process with about 30 percent going into the drivers and cross-over (10% in other). Do you want your money's worth in sound or a nice finished over priced cabinet (they even made a DVD to try and justify the outrageous manufacturing of the cabinets)? The midrange on the 802D is also a tad weak due to being to large and over done on fancy material. My suggestion would be to take a serious listen (they are going to be your speakers, let your ears decide, not the reviews) to all three of these speakers: Vandersteen Quatro, Thiel CS 3.7, and Vandersteen Quatro Wood. The Vandersteen Wood is just over 10 grand, but if you just have to have beautiful cabinets, it fits the bill on music and beauty. If what one is looking for is the nearest audio to live music for under 15 grand, that is the definition of the Quatro and CS 3.7 (again IMHO, go listen, it is worth the time). My 10 grand solution for your system would be a pair of Quatros or CS 3.7s then take the leftover money, buy a Bel Canto e.One DAC3 and take the better half to dinner because one will have money left over! Happy better half, new speakers, and new DAC, WOW what a deal! On a personal note, I can spend 25 Grand on a pair of speakers and could only find one pair better then the Quatro. That was the Quatros big brother, the Vandersteen Model 5A (the Thiel CS 3.7 was not out yet). The reason I have the Quarto is only because the Model 5A was too much speaker for my listening room (18Wx35Lx9H). -- iPhone iPhone Last.FM http://www.lastfm.com/user/mePhone Media Room: Transporter, Vandersteen Quatro Signature, Ayre MX-R Mono Blocks, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, VCC-5 Reference Center Channel, four VSM-1 Signatures, Runco 710, RAM Oppo DV970HD, VeraStarr 6.4SE Living Room: Squeezebox 3, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold Bedroom: Squeezebox 3, Thiel 2.3, NAD C370 iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
I say you audition Kef 205/2; I'd go for those before 802D in a heartbeat. -- selfdivider selfdivider's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14941 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
My SB3 setup is giving me plenty of enjoyment, but time for a speaker upgrade. My current Monitor Audio S10s are OK but cannot keep up with my new amps (Murano Audio IcePower based P-500S [EMAIL PROTECTED]#937;), show full benefit of the DAC1 clarity, nor fill our large listening space. Some internet review research led me to the BW 802Ds and a listening test at a local store blew me away. But at $10,000 this is a big step. Wondering if anyone had experience with these speakers and/or any other loudspeakers that could offer similar quality / range to the 802Ds Many thanks SB3 - Benchmark DAC 1 - Murano Audio p-500S - Monitor Audio S10 -- wyrob1 wyrob1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15051 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] BW 802D Speakers. Tempted.
an off the wall solution [and not one that your asking ] would be to swap dac's In a recent one on one the benchmark dac1 [mk1?] faired very poorly against a unit 1/10th its cost. It may well be worth your while auditioning better dac's first as it just would be a waste of money to partner this dac with speakers over $2000. the dac tested against the dac1 was a behringer scr2496 [slightly modded] the dac1 owner has now sold it in preference for the above mentioned unit with a significant improvement in perceived sound. -- zanash Acoustician and builder of interesting cables zanash's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12157 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42808 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
