Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

can we talk about sep 11th now? :-)


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[opaqueice]

willyhoops;201774 Wrote: 
 can we talk about sep 11th now? :-)
 i am so so so curious... how many people here (aside from pale blue)
 think sep 11th was a us / israeli etc plot?

You really are a troll!

Conspiracy theories are rather childish - they can explain anything,
which makes them both useless and boring.  It's much more interesting
to try to understand what actually happened - which in this case was
just what it looked like.

So far as I can tell most of the conspiracy theories for 9/11 revolve
around the fact that the buildings fell straight down.  Of course an
elementary knowledge of physics tells you that's exactly what to
expect, once you remember how hot jet fuel burns.

Let me add that I live about a mile from the trade center site, I knew
one person that died and several more that narrowly escaped, I read the
9/11 report cover to cover, as well as countless articles and several
books that relate to the causes, and there isn't the slightest reason
to suspect any such conspiracy.  If you believe in one, ask yourself
the following question - in a world where 9/11 happened with no
conspiracy, would there still be a group that believed in one?  Are you
sure you're not living in that world?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Pale Blue Ego]

krochat;201427 Wrote: 
 So, what exactly is piracy vs fair use, especially for material you've
 already purchased in a different format?
 
 Case 1: Stuff you've purchased once. 
 
 I own 2000 LPs, mostly purchased new. Obviously, I can't play them on
 my Squeezebox. Can I
 
 1) Rip the LP to a digital recording?
 2) Check out the same CD from the library and rip it?
 3) Borrow the CD from a friend and rip it?
 4) Download the CD from a free internet site?
 5) Buy the CD, rip it, then sell it used?
 
 Case 2: Music that I haven't purchased previously. 
 
 I Borrow the CD from the library and rip it. Can I
 1a) Listen, then delete it when I return it to the library?
 1b) Listen, and don't delete it?
 2) Can I buy the CD used? (No artist or company gets paid).
 3) Can I buy the CD, rip it, then sell it used? (The artist and company
 do get paid).
 
 Curiously,
 Kim

It would be very interesting to see the content industry address these
questions.  They have a history of waffling when it comes to Fair Use. 
At one point (I think it was in testimony to Congress) they said of
course it is legal to rip a CD and listen to it on your iPod, then less
than a year later they indicated that that specific behavior was
technically a violation, but the IP industry was magnanimously willing
to currently grant users that boon without pursuing legal action but
the situation could change at any time if they ever decided to clamp
down.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Phil Leigh]

Pale Blue Ego;201990 Wrote: 
 It would be very interesting to see the content industry address these
 questions.  They have a history of waffling when it comes to Fair Use. 
 At one point (I think it was in testimony to Congress) they said of
 course it is legal to rip a CD and listen to it on your iPod, then less
 than a year later they indicated that that specific behavior was
 technically a violation, but the IP industry was magnanimously willing
 to currently grant users that boon without pursuing legal action but
 the situation could change at any time if they ever decided to clamp
 down.


Which makes them a bunch of scoundrels in my book!
If I've bought 2,000 CD's (which I have) I want to listen to the music
on them any damn way I want. I've paid for the bits.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Pale Blue Ego]

We should also note that they sued Diamond Rio, the first company to
offer an mp3 player for sale in the U.S., and went after Apple for
their Rip, Mix, Burn ad campaign which encouraged people to exercise
their fair use rights with CDs they had purchased.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[servies]

johann;201281 Wrote: 
 Where's the conflict between owning and using a SB and listening to
 (what I assume you mean) ultra commercial music or whatever you mean?
 
 I wonder what more artists you include there
I actually wasn't pointing out the artist but the soundquality of those
productions. A transistor radio sounds the same as most of that crap.
Misunderstanding (one of the many, but alas my native language isn't
English).


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[johann]

servies;201412 Wrote: 
 I actually wasn't pointing out the artist but the soundquality of those
 productions. A transistor radio sounds the same as most of that crap.
 Misunderstanding (one of the many, but alas my native language isn't
 English).

Mind you not all people get a SB because how well it sounds and it's
very difficult to play music stored at your computer/NAS  using a
transistor radio.

Not to mention that music can still be enjoyable even when the
recording and/or production is crap.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[tomjtx]

Steve Jobs sees the writing on the wall. That's why he is pushing for
DRM free music from the big guys.

Itunes music sales and ipod sales will go even higher with no DRM and
that is why Jobs is pushing for it.

EMI finally understands this now. The other majors will come around in
time, especially after sales figures come in.

Who do you think is a better bet to be right, Sillyhoops or Steve
Jobs?

I know where I'll put my money :-)


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[krochat]

So, what exactly is piracy vs fair use, especially for material you've
already purchased in a different format?

Case 1: Stuff you've purchased once. 

I own 2000 LPs, mostly purchased new. Obviously, I can't play them on
my Squeezebox. Can I

1) Rip the LP to a digital recording?
2) Check out the same CD from the library and rip it?
3) Borrow the CD from a friend and rip it?
4) Download the CD from a free internet site?
5) Buy the CD, rip it, then sell it used?

Case 2: Music that I haven't purchased previously. 

I Borrow the CD from the library and rip it. Can I
1a) Listen, then delete it when I return it to the library?
1b) Listen, and don't delete it?
2) Can I buy the CD used? (No artist or company gets paid).
3) Can I buy the CD, rip it, then sell it used? (The artist and company
do get paid).

Curiously,
Kim


-- 
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--
SB3 (+linear) - Big Ben - TacT RCS 2.2X - 2xS2150 - Vandersteen 3a
Signature + TacT W210

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Pat Farrell]

krochat wrote:
 So, what exactly is piracy vs fair use, especially for material you've
 already purchased in a different format?

IANAL, and I can't define fair use.

But it is a well documented fact that much of the profits of the music 
industry in the late 80s and 90s was selling the same old music in a new 
format.  I know I bought hundreds of CDs of music I had on vinyl.

It was a good time to be a record label.

Before the CD gold mine, being a record label was a lot like being a 
Venture Capitalist. You invested in 100 deals, and lost money on 90, 
broke even on 9, and made a fortune on 1. So the labels had a legitimate 
claim that they had to make lots of money off the megasellers to cover 
the costs of all the flops.

With the gold mine, they just minted money on old acts, and I believe 
they lost their ear for finding new talent.

Now, neither the record labels or the VC like the old model, they want 
80% hits.


-- 
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[opaqueice]

krochat;201427 Wrote: 
 So, what exactly is piracy vs fair use, especially for material you've
 already purchased in a different format?
 

I'm not a lawyer either, but my understanding is that the legality of
these things is rather unclear.  The law simply isn't specific enough
to answer many of the questions you asked, and so the only way to
determine legality is through the interpretation of the law by a judge.
Therefore until a case arises that specifically revolves around one of
those questions the legality is simply not known.  Of course the record
companies will always give you the most restrictive possible
interpretation, but what they say can't be trusted.

My guess is that owning an LP is not enough to allow you to copy  the
CD version, as the LP and CD versions would probably be considered to
be different recordings.  Similarly, making a copy of a CD from the
library and keeping that copy for personal use is probably also
illegal.  See here:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

So you may be allowed to record some portion of the CD if you intend to
use it for education or research.

Making a copy that you keep only while you have the CD checked out is
another matter.  For one thing every time you play a CD using a CD
player or computer a (very temporary) copy is resident in memory
anyway.  More importantly this is clearly in good faith and doesn't
affect the copyright holder in any way, so it almost certainly would be
considered fair use.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Patrick Dixon]

I think it's a very good question, and it's one of the things the music
industry should give us an answer on ... before telling us why they
need DRM.


-- 
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www.at-tunes.co.uk

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

 9/11 absolutely was an inside job, no possible doubt

I am curious - Is this a joke or do you really believe it?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[smst]

About the honesty of customers:

http://www.freakonomics.com/article2.php

This is an interesting account of a bagel salesman and his belief that
honest people will stay honest without a bagel protection mechanism.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

thats a cool article...

 By measuring the money collected against the bagels taken, he could
 tell, down to the penny, just how honest his customers were...
 
 As it happens, his accidental study provides a window onto a subject
 that has long stymied academics: white-collar crime
 
 A street crime has a victim...But white-collar crime presents no
 obvious victim. Whom, exactly, did the masters of Enron steal from? And
 how can you measure something if you don't know to whom it happened, or
 with what frequency, or in what magnitude? 
 
 Paul F.'s bagel business was different. It did present a victim. The
 victim was Paul F. 
 
 [...and they didn't steal from him...]
 

This has a brilliant parallel in the file sharing debate... People who
would never steal cash from an old lady will happily go out and steal
from record companies by pirating thier CDs. Why? Becuase unlike Paul
F.'s bagel business they can't see who they are stealing from or how
much difference it is making. Great stuff.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

That's an interesting, optimistic and fun article. Freakonomics indeed.

But I think the problem is people can convince themselves that
something is not stealing when it is in order to justify their desires.
Rarely do you hear criminals saying I did it because I was greedy...
they usually come up with some lame justification like so and so
deserved it.

You can see on this forum that instead of admitting that they are
greedy as they pirate CDs many here have now developed a copyright
should be abolished and the record companies deserve it viewpoint. 

Also anyone who stole from Paul's bagel business could see the human
victim easily but with pirate cds they have to use their intellect to
grasp the significance of the problem. Clearly a problem if you think
Sep 11th was a plot...


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[discocarp]

Well now that we've brought 9/11 into this thread I guess its time to
break this out...


+---+
|Filename: even kittens.jpg |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2788|
+---+

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[adamslim]

discocarp;201250 Wrote: 
 Well now that we've brought 9/11 into this thread I guess its time to
 break this out...

Although interestingly, no Nazis yet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

Adam


-- 
adamslim

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have
others

http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/
'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top
artists'
(http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists)

To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the
whole Arab world against us ... condemning [young soldiers] to fight in
what would be an un-winnable urban guerrilla war. It could only plunge
that part of the world into even greater instability - George Bush
Snr, 1998

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[adamslim]

willyhoops;201256 Wrote: 
 That's very interesting and sounds very strange. It's certainly not the
 way book publishng works which i have experience of.

You clearly have no idea of how the industry works.  Very few artists
recoup - generally only very big artists.  I have worked with small
record companies which often only have one or two in their portfolio of
hundreds of artists that are recouping.

Quality trolling sir :)

Adam


-- 
adamslim

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have
others

http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/
'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top
artists'
(http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists)

To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the
whole Arab world against us ... condemning [young soldiers] to fight in
what would be an un-winnable urban guerrilla war. It could only plunge
that part of the world into even greater instability - George Bush
Snr, 1998

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[cliveb]

willyhoops;201247 Wrote: 
 many here have now developed a copyright should be abolished and the
 record companies deserve it viewpoint.
The two are not connected. I do NOT believe that copyright should be
abolished, but I DO think that the big record companies deserve it.

It strikes me that you don't have a clue how typical recording
contracts operate, so here's a brief summary:

1. The record company advances the artist some money, in order to pay
for the recording.
2. The artist spends that money and makes their recording.
3. The recording belongs to the record company. (Seems fair, they've
paid for it, yes?)
4. The record company sells the recording, and from the proceeds the
artist gets a royalty.

Here's the gotcha:

5. EVERY SINGLE PENNY that the record company has spent on behalf of
the artist (which includes all of their advance, all of the marketing,
and all of the associated corporate hospitality - such as lunches for
the executives in swanky restaurants) is deducted from their
royalties.

The outcome is:

1. The artist has paid for a recording which now belongs to the record
company. This is morally indefensible.
2. Of course, the vast majority of recordings never recoup all of the
costs that the record companies accountants claim has been spent, so
the artist never actually makes any money at all.

Do you really think this is fair? Does a company which behaves like
this really deserve to have their business model protected?


-- 
cliveb

Performers - dozens of mixers and effects - clipped/hypercompressed
mastering - you think a few extra ps of jitter matters?

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

Ah so these bum deals have generated a lot of publicity, thrown a lot of
confusion on the topic, and given the record companies a bad name. Still
maybe it's getting carried away to junk the whole industry on the basis
of that.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[adamslim]

willyhoops;201261 Wrote: 
 Ah so these bum deals have generated a lot of publicity, thrown a lot of
 confusion on the topic, and given the record companies a bad name. Still
 maybe it's getting carried away to junk the whole industry on the basis
 of that.

It's not a matter of being a bum deal.  For a small independent record
company, they are taking unknowns and helping them to make records;
some work and do very well, while others flop.  It's a risk, and the
classic approach is to diversify the portfolio and hope you choose a
few good'uns.  In order to do well, a band needs a lot of promotion, so
there is a huge cost for a small label.

The problem comes with the big boys, who often sign the big names as
loss-leaders (just like the book industry!), and have to put huge
amounts through as recoupable expenses on the rest of their artists,
just to balance their books.  These artists never recoup.

So a small artist can either go with a small label, who will care about
them but is quite unlikely to make them into a new Britney Spears, or
they can go to a major, who might make them big but they'll never get
any money out of it until they have enough clout to renegotiate their
contract.  Of course, new bands are desperate for a contract, so will
often sign away all sorts of rights.

Naturally these are polarised examples spun rather negatively, but it
gives a taste of the situation.  The problem is that there is no better
business model out there at the moment, but it will change - it needs
to!  But DRM will not force a change in the right way.

Adam


-- 
adamslim

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have
others

http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/
'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top
artists'
(http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists)

To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the
whole Arab world against us ... condemning [young soldiers] to fight in
what would be an un-winnable urban guerrilla war. It could only plunge
that part of the world into even greater instability - George Bush
Snr, 1998

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[cliveb]

 Promotion costs *should* not be recoupable.
 Out-of-pocket expenses for promotional purposes, incurred by the artist
 *should* be reimbursed by the record company. 
 The record company *may* provide promotional tour support 
 Video costs are *usually* recoupable by 50%. The remaining 50% is
 recovered from commercial exploitation of the video.
Note the preponderance of non-committal words (which I have
highlighted). The Music For London site appears to be saying what
*ought* to happen. But it's not what happens in practice to an awful
lot of artists. Someone else has already referred you to Janis Ian's
well-known essay on the subject. She's not alone.


-- 
cliveb

Performers - dozens of mixers and effects - clipped/hypercompressed
mastering - you think a few extra ps of jitter matters?

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

 5. EVERY SINGLE PENNY that the record company has spent on behalf of
 the artist (which includes all of their advance, all of the marketing,
 and all of the associated corporate hospitality - such as lunches for
 the executives in swanky restaurants) is deducted from their royalties.

That's very interesting and sounds very strange. It's certainly not the
way book publishng works which i have exxperience of. I did a search on
Google and came across this which said something silmilar:

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/music-royalties6.htm

but it sounded so strange i looked into more professional web sites
desinged for real artists needing adice. They mentioed confusion arounf
the iddue and then i found quite a good one:

http://www.musicforlondon.co.uk/MusicContractsSite/recording_agreements.htm

 ROYALTIES
 
 The rate is usually comprised between 10% and 14% of the retail price
 of the records sold or between 13% and 18%of the published price to the
 dealer. Indies usually redistribute 50%. 
 They are received after the recoupment of the advance and the recording
 and video costs. 
 
 PROMOTION
 
 Promotion costs should not be recoupable. 
 Out-of-pocket expenses for promotional purposes, incurred by the artist
 should be reimbursed by the record company. 
 The record company may provide promotional tour support 
 Video costs are usually recoupable by 50%. The remaining 50% is
 recovered from commercial exploitation of the video. 
 

You are clearly mistaken on EVERY SINGLE PENNY part but the deal is not
as sweet as I originally thought.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[servies]

willyhoops Wrote: 
 That's very interesting and sounds very strange. It's certainly not the
 way book publishng works which i have experience of.
So you really don't know what you're talking about and now you admit
it.

 but it sounded so strange i looked into more professional web sites
 designed for real artists needing advice. Then i found quite a good one

You mean:
-but it sounded not the way I wanted it, so I found another one which
is better in my view.-

willyhoops;201261 Wrote: 
 Ah so these bum deals have generated a lot of publicity, thrown a lot of
 confusion on the topic, and given the record companies a bad name. Still
 maybe it's getting carried away to junk the whole industry on the basis
 of that.
Geez, again something which tells a lot about you. I wonder why you
have a squeezebox at all as probably you're only listening to Justing
Timberlake or Britney Spears or J'Lo.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[johann]

servies;201269 Wrote: 
 I wonder why you have a squeezebox at all as probably you're only
 listening to Justing Timberlake or Britney Spears or J'Lo.

Where's the conflict between owning and using a SB and listening to
(what I assume you mean) ultra commercial music or whatever you mean?

I wonder what more artists you include there


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Pale Blue Ego]

willyhoops;201198 Wrote: 
 I am curious - Is this a joke or do you really believe it?

Absolutely.  I won't debate the topic, only suggest that if you're
interested to research it yourself and draw your own conclusion.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[discocarp]

Pale Blue Ego;201284 Wrote: 
 I won't debate the topic...

Damn. Looks like I brought out my kittens jpg too early!


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[adamslim]

discocarp;201296 Wrote: 
 Damn. Looks like I brought out my kittens jpg too early!

LOL this has been an entertaining thread, despite the OP being a level
80 troll.  I occasionally get rather attached to my ideas, but in order
to argue effectively, one always needs to recognise that others may know
stuff too.  Good fun though, plenty of good thoughts here :)

Adam


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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have
others

http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/
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artists'
(http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists)

To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the
whole Arab world against us ... condemning [young soldiers] to fight in
what would be an un-winnable urban guerrilla war. It could only plunge
that part of the world into even greater instability - George Bush
Snr, 1998

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[jonDough]

willyhoops,
Here is a better article that explains what goes on when recording an
album written by someone who was actually signed to a major.


http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/print.html


Also, for anybody thinking that non-drm'd music will not sell b/c
everybody will just trade it with their friends you might want to go
check out Allofmp3.  I think they are 2nd only to Itunes b/c of the
legality of their business model.

_JD_


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

 ...foundation that collects the tax on blank CD's... CD's for
 photography...It's not easy to think of something taxable that is
 associated only with listening to music  

Oh god what papers do you read! There is a famous and obvious solution
to this... Microsoft pays a % of the sale price on every Zune to the
record companies to compensate for piracy. Apple was asked to do the
same but refused. Indeed it's a tall order for manufactureres to do it
voluntarily. The obvious way to distrubute the money is based on survey
of pirate content although this is hard to measure for real small
artists... But as file sharing goes ballistic recovering enough money
to compensate for lost sales is going to add unrealistically to the
price of the machines.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[AndyC_772]

 such a thing is very possible despite all the knuckle headed denials.

Please: if you want to carry on a discussion, stop throwing insults at
us and actually address some of the points that have been made. Just
because many of us disagree with you doesn't mean we're thick.

willyhoops;200923 Wrote: 
 There is a famous and obvious solution to this... Microsoft pays a % of
 the sale price on every Zune to the record companies to compensate for
 piracy. Apple was asked to do the same but refused. Indeed it's a tall
 order for manufactureres to do it voluntarily and quite an effort to
 enforce across the world via taxation.

Too right they refused. If there's any money changing hands here, it
should be FROM the record companies TO the manufacturers of such
devices, to compensate them for the very real, measurable expense they
incur building DRM technology into each and every player, regardless of
whether the end user actually wants, needs or uses it.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

mark-e-mark

 I would like to see more discussion around the trust relationships and
 their security enforcement mechanisms...

If you mean you would like to learn about DRM and hacking etc then i
can give this quick tutorial:

Today we can use encryption to completely protect data from any hackers
and even government agencies #8211; read wiki about encryption. So why
did they crack HD DVD recently?

Because the consumer needs to be able to play DVDs his computer had to
be able to decrypt them. So Microsoft put the secret key for unlocking
the DVD inside Windows Media Player. Then some smart bloke in Russia
looked inside the WMP memory while the DVD was playing and found the
key. Another approach taken by another hacker was to invade the
operating system with a special device driver it did not notice that
read the video stream out of memory after the DVD has been decrypted.
It#8217;s real hard / impossible to do DRM without hardware. Microsoft
tried with all sorts of stuff but really they are fighting a loosing
battle until Intel  AMD come up with a new generation of DRM secure
chips. Even then it will be hard.

However if you have a #8216;smart card#8217; credit card with your
pin number is stored on it, you will never get the information off
because you have no key to unlock it and they never give you any
software with the key inside for you to deprogram. Everything that
happens with that card takes place in hardware they control. Even if
you get out some volt meters and hacksaws etc the hardware is tamper
resistant so you can not get inside with destroying it. Read about
smart cards on wiki. This is in contrast to HD DVD running on Windows
or XBOX where the hacker can write programs and control the in side of
these computers.

Of course another form of hacking is to get into someone#8217;s
computer. There are lots of way of doing this including guessing a
password. Because computers are hugely complex things designed to do
many things they contain many faults / weaknesses. For example,
Microsoft one day realised it was possible to create a specially
crafted #8220;.jpg#8221; file which internet explorer would get so
confused reading (buffer overrun attacks) that you could cause it to
run code that would take over your computer! Of course they fixed it as
soon as they could after finding the problem, but when the published the
fix the world learnt about it - and today anyone who has not applied the
fix is now in danger from hackers using this technique. All Operating
Systems contain numerous faults like this but Windows get the most
flack because it#8217;s the most popular one to attack, it runs on
peoples home computers, and it is a vast operating system with vast
amount of legacy code designed to support applications written years
ago. Their latest OS, Vista, addressed many security issues but as a
result broke a good percentage of the worlds existing software.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[servies]

willyhoops;200923 Wrote: 
 There is a famous and obvious solution to this... Microsoft pays a % of
 the sale price on every Zune to the record companies to compensate for
 piracy. Apple was asked to do the same but refused. 
Hmmm, indirectly you will pay for that taxation. and what if I would
use my Zune only to listen to music I made myself? In short: it's not
the solution. IMHO Apple did the right thing.
The same Dutch foundation that I mentioned earlier wanted to do the
same, but not only for Zune/iPod like gadgets. They wanted to  tax
every datacarrier you can imagine. Luckily the Dutch government
sanctioned this, partly because the foundation still can't tell how
they spend/distribute the money they received.

willyhoops;200923 Wrote: 
 If the goal is to pay artists for their work (unlike the many here who
 claim music should be free of copyright) then building a decent DRM is
 obviously the way forward. In this 21st centuary such a thing is very
 possible despite all the knuckle headed denials.
If the goal is to pay artists for their work then artists should get a
fairer slice of the pie. Not the promille they're now getting as a
fee...
From every 10 euros an album costs you maybe some 20 cents (if they're
lucky) goes to the artist (minus the costs the record company made in
recording the album etc.).
If you search a bit you can find enough of these horrorstories how
recordcompanies really treat their artists...
read http://www.janisian.com/article-internet_debacle.html par
example... If you're thinking the same about DRM after that, then I'm
sure that you're working for the RIAA or alike...


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

 from 10 euro cd artist gets maybe some 20 cents if they're lucky

So you think that 2% of the CD sale price does to the artist if they
are luyky. Common sense should tell you that is junk. I was guessing
arount 10% same as a book but more for very established artists.

A quick check at a harvard law web site gave me this:

 
 * Currently, when a CD is sold [in the United States], 35 percent of
 the retail price goes to the store, 27 percent to the record company,
 16 percent to the artist, 13 percent to the manufacturer and 9 percent
 to the distributor. See Strauss, Pennies That Add Up to $16.98: Why
 CD's Cost So Much, New York Times, July 5, 1995, Section C, page 11,
 column 1. 
 
 * In Great Britain, a typical popular-music compact disc costs aprx.
 $17 (U.S.).  Of that amount, 17% goes to the retail store, 50% goes to
 record company, 17% goes to taxes, and 17% goes to a combination of the
 composer, the music publisher, and the recording artist.  New recording
 artists typically get only 7% of retail price, while established
 artists get as much as 15%.  However, both are commonly responsible for
 studio charges and other expenses.  The net result, under current
 regime, is that new artists often end up with nothing. 



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Rangdo]

willyhoops;200946 Wrote: 
 So you think that 2% of the CD sale price does to the artist if they are
 lucky. 

I think you've mis-interpreted, the point being made is only a fraction
of the CD cost actually goes to the artist - NOT that servies thinks the
artist should only get 2%.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[smst]

willyhoops;200923 Wrote: 
 The obvious way to distrubute the money is based on survey of pirate
 content although this is hard to measure for real small artists... Eg
 iPod survey information shows today that under 5% of the music on an
 iPod is purchased through the iTunes store.

You seem to be implying that the other 95% is made of illegal
downloads.  But of course it also includes legal downloads from stores
other than iTMS (presumably only stores without DRM), and songs ripped
from one's own CD collection (fair use in many countries).

willyhoops;200928 Wrote: 
 So how does this all relate to our DRM debate? The iTunes  Microsoft
 Play4Sure DRMs were cracked becuase like the HD DVD DRM they relied on
 software ticks not heavy duty hardware to protect them. The next
 generation of DRM will not do this and will be secure. Sometimes I get
 annoyed that not everyone here understands this becuase unless someone
 does debating with them is utterly pointless.

Hardware is more secure than software, but is not guaranteed to be
secure.  But crucially it requires consumer buy-in -- I'd have to be
convinced to spend extra money on a dedicated device, or component of
my PC, in order to support the DRM they want to sell me.  How am I
going to be convinced that this is worth spending money on? It seems
that the new hardware will restrict what I can do with the music I've
paid for, and only offer richer tags and ultra-high quality.  Richer
tags, artwork etc would be nice, of course, but not nice enough to
justify the expense since I can enter the data myself (and be more sure
that it's accurate and in a format to my liking).  And the thing to
remember about higher quality is this: most people won't care about it,
because they can't hear it.  I can't tell the difference between lossy
and lossless encoding, so increasing the bit-depth and sample rate
doesn't interest me.  Most people, happy with clipped CDs and FM radio,
will settle for even less.

willyhoops;200946 Wrote: 
 So you think that 2% of the CD sale price does to the artist if they are
 lucky. Common sense should tell you that this is junk. No one can make a
 living from that. I was guessing around 10% (same as a book) or 15%+ for
 very established artists. Even 10% sounds low but you have to remember
 there is a lot to promoting books and cds. You can self publish but
 most people go the 10% route unless no one likes their work.
 
 A quick check at a harvard law web site gave me this:   In Great Britain 
 [typically] 17% goes to a combination of the composer,
  the music publisher, and the recording artist.  
The music publisher is the record company.  We don't know how much of
that 17% they take.  And (assuming the artist wrote their songs, which
is not always the case) the remainder is offset by paying back an
advance to the record company.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[servies]

willyhoops;200946 Wrote: 
 So you think that 2% of the CD sale price does to the artist if they are
 lucky. Common sense should tell you that this is junk. No one can make a
 living from that. I was guessing around 10% (same as a book) or 15%+ for
 very established artists. Even 10% sounds low but you have to remember
 there is a lot of cuts taken from the sale price of a cd and promotion
 is costy.
 
 A quick check at a harvard law web site gave me this:
You didn't read the article by Janis Ian didn't you...


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

I saw the article by Janis Ian. I can't see the bit where he got to 2%
but it looks like a complete junk article. For example:

 There is zero evidence that material available for free online
 downloading is financially harming anyone. In fact, most of the hard
 evidence is to the contrary.

Even the copyright abolish fans here are surley not arging that file
shaming has had no financial hard on anyone. 

There is no quality control on the internet. If you search around you
will find that September the 11th was a US / Israeli plot as well. And
that they never landed on the moon... Do you believe these things as
well?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Rangdo]

Well, one small example for you - take it how you will.

I recently saw an album available for download in lossless format -
obviously not an official source ;)  This is how I like to try out new
stuff, after all if I want a new car I can test drive it first, I can
try on new clothes prior to purchase, etc, etc.  I see no reason why I
should gamble my hard-earned on a CD when maybe the 1 track played on
the radio is the only decent thing on there.

I liked it, I ordered it online - while waiting for it to arrive I told
one of my mates about it, forwarded him a track.  He also liked it and
received his CD yesterday.

2 sales from an illegal download - someone's benefitted there, artist,
record company, Amazon, etc.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

Thats a nice story and its keeping sales alive at the moment. But when
the consumer looses all interest in physical CDs, why would he download
a free lossless CD and then like it and then buy exactly the same thing
again. RIAA reports sales by value including both CDs and Digital
downaloads as down 6.5% in 2006 and year on year falls in several
previous years as well. But in a future without DRM the numbers are
expected to get much worse. When you buy from allofmp3.com or file
share artists and record companies get nothing. Hence the move away
from selling music to making money off live tv and events being tested
by the major lables. This is disasterous for smaller artists.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[servies]

willyhoops;200953 Wrote: 
 I saw the article by Janis Ian. I can't see the bit where he got to 2%
 but it looks like a complete junk article. For example:
 
 
 
 Even the copyright abolish fans here are surley not arging that file
 sharing has had no financial hard on anyone. 
 
 There is no quality control on the internet. If you search around you
 will find that September the 11th was a US / Israeli plot as well. And
 Dianna was murdered by the MI6. And that they never landed on the
 moon... Do you believe these things as well?
Do you at all know who Janis Ian is? If you call that article a junk
article it's obvious who you are. So tell me, how much did your company
invest in a DRM company or how much did you get paid by the RIAA and
consorts...


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Rangdo]

willyhoops;200958 Wrote: 
 Thats a nice story and its keeping sales alive at the moment. But when
 the consumer looses all interest in physical CDs, why would he download
 a free lossless CD and then like it and then buy exactly the same thing
 again.

Well as I already had the download, there was actually little point in
buying the CD other than to show my support by buying it - I haven't
bothered to rip it again as I'm sure I couldn't do a better job and
after reading the liner the CD is now in storage.  No suggestion I
wouldn't do the same with downloads.  

I don't care about statistics saying sales are down - stats can be made
to tell any story they want.

When someone can give me a full analysis of how income has changed vs
the various products that can be bought with said income,
cross-referenced with the size of the record companies catalogue and
mapped against *accurate* downloading figures then I won't believe what
the stats tell me.

I know I don't have the money to buy *all* the games I want, and see
*all* the movies I want, and buy *all* the CDs I want - something has
to give somewhere.  It's probably not too great a leap of faith to
assume some of the money that used to be spent on music now disappears
on video games, or DVDs.

The companies need to stop bleating and blaming illicit downloading for
their own ineptitude.  Get some quality artists on book and support
them, fan loyalty would go a long way to increasing revenue for them. 
Most young people I know only buy 'Now That's What I Call Music 199'
compilation albums as they're only interested, generally, in 1 track by
any particular artist.  Most of them are here today, gone tomorrow,
manufactured pap - it's a stretch to call them artists (well, maybe
p155 artists!!).


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

ah i checked on wiki... she is an uneducated lesbian folk singer and
outspoken critic of the RIAA. well she must be smart then...

i am looking to invest but nothing yet...


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[servies]

The way you describe her, tells us enough about you...
And you still never countered any arguments given here against DRM...


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[tomjtx]

Starve the troll, save the world


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

I will be here tonight dressed in a smoking jacket so feel free to
contine the debate in person if you live in London...

www.whatwhatclub.co.uk


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[totoro]

willyhoops;200964 Wrote: 
 ah i checked on wiki... she is an uneducated lesbian folk singer and
 outspoken critic of the RIAA who has herself sold a lot of records.
 well she must be smart then...
 
 share price of majors has been beaten down and now there in interest in
 them. maybe you have seen, for example, the private equity bid stories
 on emi. only the little companies are trash. personally i would love to
 invest in a drm that will put the world to rights and make the entire
 sector a massive buy but nothing yet...

Her sexuality is relevant to the discussion in what way? So far, most
of what I've seen from you in this debate is ad hominems, blanket
assertions, and strawmen. But this particular ad hominem is just too
much.

You are a boor, a jackass, and an idiot.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[discocarp]

totoro;200983 Wrote: 
 Her sexuality is relevant to the discussion in what way? So far, most of
 what I've seen from you in this debate is ad hominems, blanket
 assertions, and strawmen. But this particular ad hominem is just too
 much.
 
 You are a boor, a jackass, and an idiot.

You forgot troll. :) 

I've been following this discussion. Its amazing to me that its
actually been a pretty good discussion despite being started and fueled
by a troll.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

well i knew it would annoy a little... but come on - have you ever had
an intelligent rational debate with a folk singing lesbian? :-)

willy the 'troll'


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[adamslim]

tomjtx;200975 Wrote: 
 Starve the troll, save the world

Ah Heroes, there should be another to download soon.  Who cares about
music copyright when TV shows are whizzing around the ether within
minutes of ending?  It's an outrage...


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[snarlydwarf]

willyhoops;200958 Wrote: 
 Hence the move away from selling music to making money off live tv and
 events being tested by the major lables. This is disasterous for
 smaller artists.

Um.

Record Labels don't make moneey off live shows and events.

That is how artists make money: and how they have made money for the
last 30 years.

It is hardly disasterous for smalller artists: smaller artists make
virtually all of their money from live shows.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

Here is the troll...

[image: http://www.whatwhatclub.co.uk/images/14.jpg]

:-)


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

ah here is willyhoops the troll...


+---+
|Filename: 14.jpg   |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2783|
+---+

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[nicketynick]

willyhoops;200958 Wrote: 
 Thats a nice story and its keeping sales alive at the moment. But when
 the consumer looses all interest in physical CDs, why would he download
 a free lossless CD and then like it and then buy exactly the same thing
 again. RIAA reports sales by value including both CDs and Digital
 downaloads as down 6.5% in 2006 and year on year falls in several
 previous years as well. But in a future without DRM the numbers are
 expected to get much worse. When you buy from allofmp3.com or file
 share artists and record companies get nothing. Hence the move away
 from selling music to making money off live tv and events being tested
 by the major lables. This is disasterous for smaller artists.

Would you please stop saying this? Especially the bit about
disasterous for smaller artists, unless you can really provide some
backup for it!

I've pointed out before that falling revenues for the major labels are
an empty argument.  If music-buying dollars are being more heavily
distributed to independent labels and artists directly (ie. emusic.com
is good evidence), that is a good thing for smaller artists! If you
mean smaller artists trying to make it big via the major labels, maybe
they just need to take another look at their approach - there are other
options out there!


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

provide some evidence for it! 
not to mention the logical arguments...
HAVE YOU READ THE TWO ARTICLES I ALREADY POSTED HERE?
Not from a folk singing lesbian... actually from a major national uk
newspaper! oh yea, and if you are not from the uk... the newspaper is
the best here after the Financial Times and has a left wing slant...


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[tomjtx]

Yes, but what about a picture of Sillyhoops?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

how about this?


+---+
|Filename: pic.jpg  |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2784|
+---+

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[tomjtx]

Very good likeness


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[nicketynick]

willyhoops;201036 Wrote: 
 Provide some evidence for it???!!!
 
 Not to mention the logical arguments... HAVE YOU READ THE TWO ARTICLES
 I ALREADY POSTED HERE?
 Not from a folk singing lesbian... actually from a major national uk
 newspaper! oh yea, and if you are not from the uk... the newspaper is
 the best here after the Financial Times and has a left wing slant...


I'm sorry I don't really recall anything in those articles that
particularly supported your arguments! There was this though from an
independent artist getting free publicity that very specifically flies
in the face of your arguments!:

By all means pirate the latest corporate spew from major label
central. But don't pretend it's the same thing as copying this, because
one day, when we're all gone and all that's left is two or three giant
multinational conglomerates putting out lowest-common-denominator
bollocks, you'll wish you hadn't.

Clearly, this is a band that prefers a distribution system that
involves hundreds or thousands of operating companies, who obviously
are not going to be able to implement any sort of DRM system that
relies on every single company/artist/label agreeing to a hardware
standard that limits fair use!
If the big labels want to go ahead and try to implement a hypothetical
DRM that requires everybody to buy new hardware, let them go ahead and
try! I think they'll quickly find that they're losing all their
business to the competition that provides non-DRM music. And then
they'll start to lose their artists too..


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Rangdo]

willyhoops;201036 Wrote: 
 actually from a major national uk newspaper!

Oh well, if it's in a UK newspaper it must be true then, the papers
never tell porkies do they ;)


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Robin Bowes]

willyhoops wrote:

 but come on - have you ever had an intelligent rational debate with a
 folk singing lesbian? :-)

You know Willy, I had you down as many things; learning that you're a 
female folkie surprises me. ;)

R.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Skunk]

willyhoops;201044 Wrote: 
 how about this?

It's nice, but if you are the artist don't you want to add a copyright
blurb, so that I don't steal it for my Web site/clip art cd project?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Pale Blue Ego]

willyhoops;200953 Wrote: 
 There is no quality control on the internet. If you search around you
 will find that September the 11th was a US / Israeli plot as well. And
 Dianna was murdered by the MI6. And that they never landed on the
 moon... Do you believe these things as well?

9/11 absolutely was an inside job, no possible doubt.  Diana I have not
researched except to note that Charles specifically threatened her with
that exact outcome should she continue to date the Arab.

The moon landing was real, however.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[totoro]

willyhoops;200953 Wrote: 
 I saw the article by Janis Ian. I can't see the bit where he got to 2%
 but it looks like a complete junk article. For example:
 
 
 
 Even the copyright abolish fans here are surley not arging that file
 sharing has had no financial hard on anyone. 
 
 There is no quality control on the internet. If you search around you
 will find that September the 11th was a US / Israeli plot as well. And
 Dianna was murdered by the MI6. And that they never landed on the
 moon... Do you believe these things as well?

Sure, file sharing might have had an effect. But so might the
availability of other forms of entertainment, an overall lousy product,
or any number of other factors. This has been analyzed quite a bit by
numerous people, and it really isn't all that clear that the troubles
of the big music companies are all caused by file sharing. 

They've certainly claimed this, but correlation isn't causation, as you
well know (or should anyway), and they certainly have offered nothing in
the way of solid arguments for this claim.

Most of the music I buy (I've bought ~300 cds in the last year) is on
small specialist jazz labels, which seem to be resurgent, so, again,
I'd really want to see some better evidence in order to accept that
there's an overall crisis in music making. 

As to your argument about the janis ian thing: all you've done is
spout ad hominems. Tell us something specific that's wrong with her
claims. Regarding your arguments by authority, they're plainly
laughable. The Guardian is certainly not immune to publishing nonsense
when it comes to technology, so I wouldn't exactly take them as the
final arbiter of anything.

As far as quality control on the internet goes: this seems to be
another of your unintentionally self-referential statements :)


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[AndyC_772]

Mark Lanctot;200587 Wrote: 
 But there already is such a thing: a DSD decoding chip, necessary for
 SACD playback.  That sure proved popular...

Actually DSD isn't encryption, it's just a different way of using
digital bits to encode an analogue waveform. The AK4396 DAC used in the
Transporter can actually decode it.

Given that SACD is backwards compatible with most CD players, the only
reason I can think of as to why it didn't take off, is that customers
simply didn't care enough about the higher quality, so didn't ask for
it. If it costs more (even fractionally more) to produce, but customers
don't really want it, then labels won't make them.

Puts the whole 'throw away your equipment so you can have 96/24
quality' argument into perspective, doesn't it?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Robin Bowes]

opaqueice wrote:

 It would be interesting to study the economics of music performance and
 composition in the era before copyright, or before recorded music. 
 Mozart had no trouble making a living.

Actually, Mozart struggled to make a living and died poor - he was 
buried in a pauper's grave.

  Why didn't everyone else just
 copy him?  Why wasn't he destroyed by having every good idea
 immediately stolen?  I don't know the answer, but I suspect it's
 similar to modern academia - everyone in the community knew Mozart, his
 style, his famous works, and if people copied them it simply made him
 more famous, more in demand to compose a new piece, or as a performer,
 or to be the composer-in-residence, or as a teacher, etc.  

I suspect it was simply that it was harder to copy in those days - no 
media to record on, only live performances; no way to copy the scores 
easily, either copy out long-hand or expensive printing process.

Today, we can rip a CD in minutes or copy the music files. We can also 
easily reproduce scores/music.

 
 What's wrong with that as a model for music today?

Er, it's about 250 years out of date!

R.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[opaqueice]

Robin Bowes;200696 Wrote: 
 
 Actually, Mozart struggled to make a living and died poor - he was 
 buried in a pauper's grave.
 

Because he was profligate, not because he had trouble making a living. 
I've been to an apartment in Vienna he lived in - he had lots of money,
at least for a while.  His patrons were grand dukes etc.  Anyway the
point is there was a thriving music scene without copyright, as there
probably had been throughout human history.

Copying scores longhand really isn't very difficult, so that's not the
explanation.

What's different now is that there are new ways for musicians to make
money which never existed before.  Now they can sell recordings, and,
in principle, earn a living.  That's great, but it doesn't work - very
few musicians make any money that way.  So the system is broken, it
isn't helping to create more art, and at the same time it's a great
restriction on the public.  That's exactly the situation where the law
needs to be modified to make it less restrictive - but instead, the
trend is the opposite, probably because corporations do make a lot of
money from this, and they have a lot of power.

It's interesting that what is happening is precisely what Jefferson
feared - that creating even a limited monopoly like copyright would
inevitably lead corporations to gain more and more power.  As a result
he was opposed to any form of copyright, and, ultimately, he may have
been correct.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[nicketynick]

Just ran into this in a Canadian Press article:
For their part, at least two of the recording companies will ask Jobs
to sell a wider variety of content in digital bundles of songs, videos
and other multimedia, according to two recording company executives
familiar with their companies' plans. They spoke on condition of
anonymity, citing the confidential nature of the negotiations.
I really think our OP is more intimately involved in this issue than he
lets on..


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[tomjtx]

opaqueice;200710 Wrote: 
 Because he was profligate, not because he had trouble making a living. 
 I've been to an apartment in Vienna he lived in - he had lots of money,
 at least for a while.  His patrons were grand dukes etc.  Anyway the
 point is there was a thriving music scene without copyright, as there
 probably had been throughout human history.
 
 
 
 Mozart's fortunes did go up and down but not only because he was
 profligate.
 
 He wasn't a good self manager and he often alienated his patrons.
 
 Composers did make money from their scores as did the publishers of
 those scores. They are original work product and the composer has a
 right to earn revenue.
 
 The printed disemination of those scores in turn increased the
 popularity of the composer. If the publisher couldn't earn revenue from
 the printing and distribution of the scores why would the publisher
 incur the expense.
 
 Record companies do provide a service to the public and the artist
 although I agree that the cos. make too much and the artist too
 little.
 
 That may be changing as online self distribution by artists continues
 to grow. They will have more bargaining power to negotiate better
 contracts.
 
 Being a musician, I know a lot of musicians and none of them would
 support abolishing all forms of copyright.
 
 
 
 However most musicians I know don't support the restrictions on fair
 use that DRM causes. But that is a different issue.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[opaqueice]

I was hoping you'd chime in on this - I'm very interested in your
opinion.

tomjtx;200728 Wrote: 
 
 Composers did make money from their scores as did the publishers of
 those scores. They are original work product and the composer has a
 right to earn revenue.
 
 The printed disemination of those scores in turn increased the
 popularity of the composer. If the publisher couldn't earn revenue from
 the printing and distribution of the scores why would the publisher
 incur the expense.

But do you happen to know if this was enforced by law?  I know in the
states it wasn't possible to copyright musical scores until the early
to mid 19th century, but I don't know about the Holy Roman Empire in
the late 18th.  In any case, if Mozart was a bad example, we can always
go back earlier in time - there's been music around for a long while
:-).

 
 Being a musician, I know a lot of musicians and none of them would
 support abolishing all forms of copyright.
 
 However most musicians I know don't support the restrictions on fair
 use that DRM causes. But that is a different issue.

I know some that do...  but perhaps more would if there was something
to replace it?  For example, a tax of some sort (on blank CDs for
example) which went to a fund to support artists and public art/music
programs?  A system of artists-in-residence at the federal, state,
county, city, university level?  More public funding for local
orchestras and smaller ensembles?  Done well, it could lead to a huge
increase in the amount of music being made, and people's exposure to
it.  Done badly, it would lead to a bloated and ineffective
bureaucracy.

A less radical option is simply to reform the system as it stands, and
make sure most of the money goes directly to the artists and not to
middlemen.  That already seems to be happening, and I think the current
struggles over DRM are part of it.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[AndyC_772]

opaqueice;200735 Wrote: 
 there's been music around for a long while :-).

True - but home recording  playback equipment hasn't. Copying the
score for a symphony doesn't remove the need for an orchestra to play
it!


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[adamslim]

opaqueice;200735 Wrote: 
 For example, a tax of some sort (on blank CDs for example) which went to
 a fund to support artists and public art/music programs?  A system of
 artists-in-residence at the federal, state, county, city, university
 level?  More public funding for local orchestras and smaller ensembles?
 Done well, it could lead to a huge increase in the amount of music
 being made, and people's exposure to it.  Done badly, it would lead to
 a bloated and ineffective bureaucracy.

The problem with flat systems is that they tend to get distributed
unfairly.  Any 'unidentifiable' income for music reproduction is
distributed in the same ratio as the total take, which is great for big
artists but clearly unfair - but can we come up with a better system?

Public funding is great, but in the UK it's being cut massively - we
have an Olympics in 2012, and we're going to decimate the classical
industry (and not even invest in grassroots sport) to pay for it!

On Mozart, he may have been profligate but he was arguably the greatest
music genius of all time.  By any calculation, surely he should have
earned more in real terms than the £600m fortune that Paul 'not even
the most talented in his band' McCartney has amassed?  Couldn't we
allow Wolfy a few parties? ;)

Some system of copyright protection is essential to reward the
successful artists, and some amount of state (or rich benefactor)
sponsorship should be there for the unrecognised talent.  The balance
is hard to call, but I would fear that use of DRM (which strongly
favours the copyright holder) would push the balance towards highly
marketed artists, which would certainly not be a result I personally
would like to see.

Adam


-- 
adamslim

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have
others

http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/
'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top
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(http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists)

To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the
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Snr, 1998

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Mark Lanctot]

opaqueice;200735 Wrote: 
 For example, a tax of some sort (on blank CDs for example) which went to
 a fund to support artists and public art/music programs?

We have such a wonderful system in Canada.  It's turned into another
cash grab, but one of the original justifications for it was to
compensate artists for the inevitable copying that would occur.  Yet
we still have this AND we also have DRM, the worst of both worlds.  If
the intentions around the blank media tarriff were factual, copying a
CD would be entirely legal in Canada and DRM would be illegal (since it
prevents the supposedly legal copying of a CD), but this isn't the case.
Media companies conveniently skirt the issue and release CDs with the
same protections as the American releases.

Since many music releases can be obtained as downloads now, there's
talk of extending the tax to blank hard drives.  These would be taxed
by the recording capacity.  Could you imagine the extra cost added to a
500 GB drive if you consider how many 128 kbps MP3s could be fitted onto
it?  Insanity.  Plus, of course, most of these downloads can't be copied
anyway due to DRM.  bangs head against wall

Thankfully we don't have laws like the DMCA.  Yet.  I say yet because
the RIAA and MPAA are extending their tentacles over the border.  The
MPAA, for example, has invented statistics showing that most pirated
movies come from Canada, the Montreal area to be specific, and
announced just yesterday that to punish us for our sins there will be
no more advanced screenings in the country.  This is more to put
pressure on politicians to make our laws more in line with those of the
U.S.

One thing to be proud of though, about 6 months ago, several prominent
Canadian musicians spoke out against DRM.  Unfortunately nothing has
become of it.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Mark Lanctot]

krochat;199061 Wrote: 
 And, despite what the article says, the album is already available for
 download at http://www.thecrimea.net/download/tabid/62/Default.aspx

OT: I like this idea, I just wished I liked the music more.  :-(


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

i thought i would never write again on the subject here, but this post
just annoyed me too much:

[qoute]Some system of copyright protection is essential ... [but] The
balance is hard to call, but I would fear that use of DRM (which
strongly favours the copyright holder) would push the balance towards
highly marketed artists, which would certainly not be a result I
personally would like to see. 
 
 My explanations of how not selling music creates a media like world of
 live TV / big concert / t-shirt sales that hits small artists but which
 the big names can live with has not beeen enough.
 
 Neither has the last article from the guardian about the demise of the
 small artist...
 
 So here is yet another...
 
 http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/04/has_illegal_downloading_gone_t.html
 
 Here is an extract from it:
 
 Last week, I received a promotional CD of Ma Fleur, the new album by
 Cinematic Orchestra, a group on the independent label Ninja Tune.
 Before I'd even played it (it's very good by the way), I was hooked by
 the blurb on the sleeve.
 
 Usually, this is the bit of legal boilerplate where the label informs
 you that illegal downloading is outright gangsterism and anyone who
 practises it will be dragged outside to be shot like a dog, after which
 their head will be exhibited on a spike outside the BPI headquarters as
 a warning to others.
 
 But this one is different. Before you copy, burn or upload these
 recordings, it begins, please take a moment to think about what
 you're doing and what you're not doing. You are not 'sticking it to the
 man'. You are not 'striking a blow against outdated copyright laws'. You
 are not 'liberating content from the corporations'. Nor are you
 'promoting our records for us'. You are making it much harder for the
 musicians in Cinematic Orchestra to make anything like a living wage
 for creating the music which is good enough to give to friends and
 associates.
 
 ...justifications ring hollow, especially when it comes to independent
 artists... Filesharing raises the artist's profile? True, it can stoke
 demand for live shows, and for licensing to TV, movies and advertisers,
 but word-of-mouth promotion doesn't work if you're giving someone an
 album instead of just telling them about it. According to Ninja Tune's
 Will Ashon, who wrote the Ma Fleur text, the difference between an
 independent album losing money and breaking even can be as little as
 1000 copies.
 
 I'll leave the last word to Ninja Tune: By all means pirate the latest
 corporate spew from major label central. But don't pretend it's the same
 thing as copying this, because one day, when we're all gone and all
 that's left is two or three giant multinational conglomerates putting
 out lowest-common-denominator bollocks, you'll wish you hadn't.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[nicketynick]

Kudos to them for expressing their concerns and feelings on the subject
so well. It is ironic though, that this message was relayed to us via a
CD that was given a way for free! Hmmm
They are absolutely nuts though if they think they're going to make any
kind of money selling CD's through normal retail channels. The only
independent CD's I buy I get right at live shows (get 'em signed if I
can), anything else I download. (legally)


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

the album was not free, they were just sending a free promo one to a
journalist for review. no doubt they expect to sell cds and downloads
when apple let them, that hardly invalidates the complaint against
piracy (file sharing) and the importance of making money from selling
music to the small artist.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[adamslim]

willyhoops;200768 Wrote: 
 this post just annoyed me too much

Oh good. :)


-- 
adamslim

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have
others

http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/
'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top
artists'
(http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists)

To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the
whole Arab world against us ... condemning [young soldiers] to fight in
what would be an un-winnable urban guerrilla war. It could only plunge
that part of the world into even greater instability - George Bush
Snr, 1998

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[mark-e-mark]

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread and have become more
educated about the issues involved in DRM as a result.  It's terrific
that there are immensely qualified posters who are willing to engage
willyhoops in this discussion. It is a compliment to this community
that willyhoops is willing to voice a minority position opposed by many
forum regulars.

I would like to see more discussion around the trust relationships and
their security enforcement mechanisms, since that appears to me to be
at the heart of this debate.  Someone posted an anlogy to credit
card/bank transactions initiated by the account holder and conducted
with a vendor, so that the security model of 'hidden key' is a
successful solution for that relationship.  

Does the community's interest in secure retail transactions mean that
hackers are the only ones attempting to bypass the security in
financial systems?  Are record companies and copyright estates the only
ones interested in a DRM system?  Are there any other analagous
relationships, however imperfect, that we might use to shed more light
on the situation?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[servies]

opaqueice;200735 Wrote: 
 I know some that do...  but perhaps more would if there was something to
 replace it?  For example, a tax of some sort (on blank CDs for example)
 which went to a fund to support artists and public art/music programs? 
 A system of artists-in-residence at the federal, state, county, city,
 university level?  More public funding for local orchestras and smaller
 ensembles?  Done well, it could lead to a huge increase in the amount of
 music being made, and people's exposure to it.  Done badly, it would
 lead to a bloated and ineffective bureaucracy.
Such a system we have here in the Netherlands and to be honest: It
doesn't work. The foundation that collects the tax on blank CD's has
around 70 million Euros waiting to be given to the artists... for more
than 3 years... And all they can do is babble away about how they
should divide it so each artist gets a fair share...


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[AndyC_772]

IMHO there's a much bigger problem with the idea of a tax on CDs or
other media. One of my hobbies is photography, and I use blank CDs and
DVDs to store digital photos - original material in which I hold the
copyright.

So, the idea of paying a tax to the music industry for the storage
space I use is every bit as ludicrous and unjustified as suggesting I
should pay a tax to the fast food industry, or the coal mining
industry, or any other industry that has NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER in my
use of digital storage media for my own legitimate purposes.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Phil Leigh]

Yep - another really well thought out piece of rubbish legislation.

I'm surprised no-one has suggested a blanket tax on paper and
pencils...

Analogue Rights Management anyone?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[opaqueice]

Phil Leigh;200839 Wrote: 
 Yep - another really well thought out piece of rubbish legislation.
 
 I'm surprised no-one has suggested a blanket tax on paper and
 pencils...
 

I think this is going a bit fast.  It's not easy to think of something
taxable that is associated only with listening to music on which
copyright hasn't been paid.  So as a compromise the tax is applied to
something that can be used for other purposes as well.  That's bad for
people that use lots of blank CDs, but it's good for everybody else and
for musicians (presumably).  So this again is a question of balancing
the good of the many against the detriment of a few. 

In any case, I share the skepticism here that a specific tax which gets
distributed to artists would be the best thing to replace music
copyrights with - it was just an idea.  Does anyone have any other
suggestions?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[tomjtx]

OK I will chime in again.

I strongly support fair use and I think current DRM restricts this and
ultimately hurts sales more than helps them.

That said, I would not copy someone's CD and keep it.
I have copied CDs to see if I like them and want to keep them. If I
want to keep them I buy them. If I don't like it I delete it.

To copy a Cd to keep is stealing revenue from the musician and I have a
problem with that.
Rationalizations that the artist doesn't see the revenue are just that
: rationalizations.  

I am opposed to DRM.  I would rather rely on the honesty of others than
restrict fair use, regardless of how naive this may seem.

I do believe that there will always be a lot of stealing , especially
among high school and college students. I also think this is an
acceptable loss when weighed against their income and ability to
promote a given artist.
I prefer to believe these students, when they get jobs and enter the
adult world will buy music.

I would rather risk stealing among a certain group than penalize
everyone with unfair DRM which restricts the fair use of the majority.

I do think the riaa , ascap etc. are little more than a mafia which
even extorts money from any business (resturaunts etc.) which play CD's
and have live music.

I don't think this means we should abolish copyright. Perhaps the law
needs to be refined to prevent the extortionist tactics of ASCAP etc.

The above was written after 2 glasses of a good cabernet while
listening to Ojos De Brujo: Techari.

Said writer/musician is preparing to cook angel hair pasta with fresh
gulf shrimp sauteed in virgin olive oil and garlic to be added to a
homemade tomatoe basil sauce.

Condiments include a fresh ground pecorino reggiano.

All the above is copyrighted and any attempts to duplicate will be
vigorously prosecuted.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[Robin Bowes]

tomjtx wrote:

 Said writer/musician is preparing to cook angel hair pasta with fresh
 gulf shrimp sauteed in virgin olive oil and garlic to be added to a
 homemade tomatoe basil sauce.

You shouldn't use virgin olive oil to cook with - it burns to easily. 
Better using something like groundnut oil.

:p

R.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[tomjtx]

Robin Bowes;200871 Wrote: 
 tomjtx wrote:
 
  Said writer/musician is preparing to cook angel hair pasta with
 fresh
  gulf shrimp sauteed in virgin olive oil and garlic to be added to a
  homemade tomatoe basil sauce.
 
 You shouldn't use virgin olive oil to cook with - it burns to easily. 
 Better using something like groundnut oil.
 
 :p
 
 R.

Groundnut oil?
Wouldn't that be painful?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[haunyack]

The above was written after 2 glasses of a good cabernet while
listening to Ojos De Brujo: Techari

I would think the Techari CD calls for a fine agave mescal.

Great CD by the way!

.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[tomjtx]

haunyack;200873 Wrote: 
 The above was written after 2 glasses of a good cabernet while
 listening to Ojos De Brujo: Techari
 
 I would think the Techari CD calls for a fine agave mescal.
 
 Great CD by the way!
 
 .

Only if you eat the worm :-)


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[opaqueice]

Robin Bowes;200871 Wrote: 
 
 You shouldn't use virgin olive oil to cook with - it burns to easily. 
 Better using something like groundnut oil.
 

You must be British :-).


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

i am sorry not to  have responded for a while. I decided to take the
discussion to a more enlightened crowd. the debate here helped to
sharpen my arguments so many thanks.

It comes down to 

(1) Is DRM possible?
Yes cost effective DRM using harware Secure Cryptoprocessor /
Decompression / DAC chip with tamper-resistant properties for dedicated
harware players like squeezebox/ipod is very possible. Under $50 per
device but with large investment to produce the harware. Analogue
recording of the output would be possible but would result in lower
quality and tag loss. 

(2) Would consumers buy it?
For classical the 24bit/96khz and rich tags would be very attractive as
long as there was confidence in the dac. Real potential to see dramatic
sales as consumers upgrade their entire collection. Young people
listening to pop would probably stick to mp3s. Questions on the
remainder.

(3) Would the world be a better place with DRM?
Probably - the inability to sell music is likely to create an less
original and more populist industry. A world with free 128k mp3s and
drm protected 24bit rich tag audio sounds interesting.

(4) Would record companies invest in it?
Need to figure out if the pay market would be big enough to justify the
cost of developing this DRM.

(5) What about subscription service?
Online subscription service is hot area in wake of DRM failure - but
risk consumers downloading every cd and distribute. We can market our
secure hardware to this market as well - very nice.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[adamslim]

willyhoops;200406 Wrote: 
 I decided to take the discussion to a more enlightened crowd.

Couldn't you have stayed there?


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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have
others

http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/
'Last.fm group: people who don't listen to any of last.fm's top
artists'
(http://www.last.fm/group/People+who+don%27t+listen+to+any+of+last.fm%27s+top+artists)

To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the
whole Arab world against us ... condemning [young soldiers] to fight in
what would be an un-winnable urban guerrilla war. It could only plunge
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Snr, 1998

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[AndyC_772]

willyhoops;200406 Wrote: 
 i am sorry not to  have responded for a while. I decided to take the
 discussion to a more enlightened crowd.

Am I right in assuming that by 'more enlightened', you actually mean
'pro-DRM'? (Never mind, don't bother answering that).

Nevertheless, you are now at least asking some sensible questions -
though the answers are most definitely up for debate:

 (1) Is DRM possible?

Not with any current hardware. The implementation of a truly secure
system would require consumers to throw away all their existing
players, replacing them with new ones that support the new tamper-proof
chip. Add anything even approaching $50/unit to the cost of anything
other than an audiophile-grade player would be commercially ruinous -
it would double the cost of an MP3 player, for example. In fact adding
even $5 to the raw BOM cost of such a device would be completely
unacceptable to manufacturers, just ask anyone who works in the
electronics industry.

 (2) Would consumers buy it?

Highly unlikely. The young people, who both buy and pirate the most
music, simply won't hear any difference on their budget and portable
systems, and the increased file size and DRM means both reduced storage
capacity and battery life. The idea that they should consider replacing
all their playback equipment, never mind their entire music
collections, is truly laughable.

The benefit of 96/24 encoding might be appreciated by the small
proportion of the market that represents 'audiophiles' - though they
too are unlikely to replace perfectly good, high quality equipment with
something new, just to accommodate a DRM chip. They are also the people
most likely to pay for their music in the first place, so DRM provides
minimal benefit to the record companies.

 (3) Would the world be a better place with DRM?
Better for whom?

For the record companies, maybe. They find themselves in a position
where they can truly charge whatever they like - in fact they're
legally obliged to do so, if it maximises the benefit to their
shareholders. Philanthropy is neither an historical virtue nor a future
probability.

For the consumer? A huge bill to replace perfectly good playback
equipment, music becomes more expensive, reduced ability to play the
music they've paid for where and when they choose... the ONLY potential
benefit is a rather vague suggestion that there might be a greater
variety of music out there to choose from. Though the case for labels
promoting endless, over-hyped dross in a DRM-free world has been made,
the case for NOT doing so in a DRM'd one has not. They could afford
to, and I'd like it if they did is not a case. Bill Gates could afford
to buy me a new laptop, and I'd like it if he did - but he's not going
to. Why should he?

 (4) Would record companies invest in it?
No, because it would be commercial suicide for all the reasons
described above. (BTW who gives a stuff about tags, really? My music
includes the artists' names and song titles, and that's plenty - I can
find the album I want easily and play it. What display issue are you
getting at?)

 (5) What about subscription services?
Good idea. Pay some reasonable amount per month and download music in
the format of your choice - say, FLAC or MP3 - quickly and safely from
a secure server that's guaranteed to work, to be available, and not to
be full of malware. I'd subscribe to that, and I'd keep subscribing
provided that the flow of new, interesting music kept coming. It would
be a whole lot easier than trawling P2P networks, the quality would be
guaranteed, and that would make it worth the reasonable fee.

Of course, it wouldn't be a 'per-album' fee, though.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[gbruzzo]

Andy_C, 

I am with you point by point. 

Let us never forget, that most of the DRM-related discussion is skewed.


Record companies defend the rights of their artists (their artists'
right to a stream of income). 

But in most cases, these streams of income have been signed away by the
artists to these very same companies (when the first record contract was
signed).

The whole DRM debate seems to me to depend on two levels:

1) the relationship between the artist and the recording company, as
described by their record contracts. Artists don't often have any
control on the pricing/marketing of their music, they mostly receive
some (smaller) cash stream from the recording company in exchange for
giving up the rights to cash streams from future sales. 

2) the relationship between the recording companies and the final music
consumer, who rightly would like to be able to download music freely (eg
no expiry, no limitation in changing the format, no limitation in the
choice of hardware one uses to stream/play this music) and priced
according to quality of the recording. 

One should try to keep these two aspects of the discussion as separate
as possible. One issue is contractual, the other has to  do with
logistics and distribution.
Record companies demagogically try to mix these two issues, as
described above. They are unable to innovate at the level of 1),
therefore try to force the distortion upon us by acting on 2). 

There is no reason why this should happen.

Giacomo


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[servies]

 I decided to take the discussion to a more enlightened crowd.
Who decided them to be 'more enlightened'. I probably see them as
idiots. The way you're reasoning around here suggests me that you
probably wouldn't even know people knowledgeable about the subject
enough to be called 'enlightened'.
You have never ever tried to counter arguments people here provided.
Your whole 'discussion' is just a stupid monologue.

I can give you enough of examples of so-called 'tamper-resistant'
hardware which have been cracked within minutes...
If you don't get it by now: everything can be cracked if there's enough
motivation and mostly it's within a fraction of the development time...

 (1) Is DRM possible
Yes it is possible and it will be broken within weeks...

 (2) Would consumers buy it?
Why would I buy something that restricts my rights to things I already
have/can?

 (3) Would the world be a better place with DRM?
Why would the music industry invest in music only few people would buy,
if they can forcefeed you the rubbish they're want to produce cheaply...
So probably NO...

 (4) Would record companies invest in it?
If those are the enlightened people you're referring to... probably
they will try and their companies will die...

 (5) What about subscription services?
Already answered by Andy.

So tell me... how much did you invest into a DRM related company? Just
so we can laugh about how much money you're going to lose...


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[AndyC_772]

Tags are completely unimportant to me. When I buy a CD, the music goes
straight onto my NAS, then the disc itself goes into the CD-changer in
my car, and the box (including the sleeve notes, cover art and so on)
goes on the shelf. I rarely, if ever, even look at them.

Care to try and address any of my other points above please? Why
exactly am I 'mad'?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

well you are still all mad but let me ask one thing... do you really all
think tags are unimportant? when i buy an opera it comes with a booklet
of all the words, a description of the recording, a few pics etc. one
of the sad things to me of digital music is the limited tags. not being
able to see the words scroll in time with the music especially silly
given we are living in the 21st centuary. i rip my cds and then take
the booklet out and keep that and throw away the cd. but having it
digital and properly integrated into my player would be real nice.

how many people think having real rich tags would be real nice?

my hunch, seeing the popularity of mp3tag and programs to print out a
music collection including images, is that rich tags would be real
popular (although it's something that is still catching on).


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

ok ancy_c you are not so mad but servies clearly is. 

still, i am interested in feedback from others about tags.

i think seeing album art and correct consistent tags and song words
scrolling will make a huge difference to the market for digital music.
Just the small step of seeing album art on the ipod video made a big
difference to me for example. i would say for a classical fan the all
media guide database etc is such a mess tags are almost a write off
currently. of course the record companies could fix this with the cd
text but they they have no intention of doing this because it helps to
prevent ripping.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[funkstar]

I wouldn't ever assume you are going to get full and complete tags off a
record company. You often don't get the full details on sleae notes as
it is. I forget which album it was, but Radiohead had something like
Lyrics reporduced with permision of the record compnay, even though we
wrote them. Says it all really.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DRM lessons from the Squeezebox

[willyhoops]

funkstar... suppose for fun the record companies did a real great job of
the tags so even you were impressed ... how much would you value that? 

andy_c doesn't care how good they are. suppose the record company
helped radiohead write the tags themselves and put whatever they liked
in there for their fans...


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