[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
95bcwh;171813 Wrote: No..I detest such ads.. but it's all over the place, what can you do about it? Just turn on your TV: Cable phone, call anywhere for $29.99 only yeah right, then you have to pay another $15 tax. Came in for a brake service for $99! Yeah right, you end up paying $800! Buy a sleep number bed, starting $599 Yeah right, the moment you enter the store, the price goes up to $2000! There is only one thing we can do about it: refuse to do business with such people. It's relatively hard in domains where we feel a need to own a product and there is an oligopoly (cellphones). But audio equipment seems to me a relatively easy venue for expressing this kind of disgust. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
I emailed Bel Canto twice regarding the 'in home' demo and questioned them about the particulars of the 'no risk' policy (Dec / Jan). I never received a response to any of my questions. Shame, as I liked the products I was interested in 'on paper.' -- sonofcolin sonofcolin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9291 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Just to update. I did finally receive a response (co-incidence?) I will not post a private message here, but I can say that they did explain their perspective regarding the offer quite clearly. My opinion: Contact Bel Canto directly and get your questions answered . -- sonofcolin sonofcolin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9291 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
wshields;171695 Wrote: Funny, they have never bothered to email me back. Could you give us a summary of their perspectve? People could get the new stuff from Bel Canto to demo for 15 days, decide they like it, send it back to Bel Canto and buy it else where much cheaper. -- sonofcolin sonofcolin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9291 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
sonofcolin;171735 Wrote: People could get the new stuff from Bel Canto to demo for 15 days, decide they like it, send it back to Bel Canto and buy it else where much cheaper. If their own dealers are undercutting them, then they have a pricing problem, IMHO. If they're worried about people buying used, how is this different from the situation of direct sellers who don't charge restocking fees? -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
sonofcolin;171735 Wrote: People could get the new stuff from Bel Canto to demo for 15 days, decide they like it, send it back to Bel Canto and buy it else where much cheaper. While that is true, bel canto would still make money off the dealer sale. Did they say why they call it a No Risk Purchase Plan when they charge 5% restocking? That is my beef with them. (not whether it is okay to charge a restocking fee) -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
totoro;171737 Wrote: If their own dealers are undercutting them, then they have a pricing problem, IMHO. How is it a pricing problem? I think its the issue of trying to balance a dealer network while trying to sell direct...they are essentially competing with their dealers, and if a dealer doesn't want to offer a 30-day trial, they will have to compete on some other basis (eg. price, service, etc). -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
wshields;169437 Wrote: I got an RMA. Why would a company call something a NO RISK Purchase plan then charge a 5% restocking fee? What does no risk mean to you smart guy? Come on.. you weren't born yesterday are you? This is called Marketing!!! Such ads are all over the place. -- 95bcwh 95bcwh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4358 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
PhilNYC;171743 Wrote: How is it a pricing problem? I think its the issue of trying to balance a dealer network while trying to sell direct...they are essentially competing with their dealers, and if a dealer doesn't want to offer a 30-day trial, they will have to compete on some other basis (eg. price, service, etc). Yeah, I thought of that after posting. It might be impossible to balance having dealers _and_ selling direct. That said, if someone wanted to use the services of a dealer, why would they demo from bel canto first? I'd assume in that case, they'd have a dealer they could get to reasonably easily. If the problem is that their dealers are undercutting them, then they've probably set the price too high (my original point). I would have thought that the _only_ thing their dealers would be capable of competing on would have to be service (not just repairs, but the whole package). Given the fact that they're selling direct for more than they sell wholesale, I would think that they could set their price so that it would be uneconomic for dealers to undercut them. But still, there are other companies that do both that don't charge these restocking fees (benchmark being one, I think). The whole thing is somewhat unconvincing to me (others of course may disagree). This whole thing is a diversion from the main point of this thread, that their website offer was misleading. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
95bcwh;171745 Wrote: Come on.. you weren't born yesterday are you? This is called Marketing!!! Such ads are all over the place. It is misleading Marketing. If you want to accept it as okay and allow it to become the norm, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
PhilNYC;171743 Wrote: How is it a pricing problem? I think its the issue of trying to balance a dealer network while trying to sell direct...they are essentially competing with their dealers, and if a dealer doesn't want to offer a 30-day trial, they will have to compete on some other basis (eg. price, service, etc). I think it must have been a 30 day trial at some point but it now is only 15 days. -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
95bcwh;171745 Wrote: Come on.. you weren't born yesterday are you? This is called Marketing!!! Such ads are all over the place. It's still dishonest marketing. The caveat emptor line is no justification. If I take this line of reasoning to what seems the logical conclusion, it's ok to steal from someone's house because the door was unlocked or to steal credit card info from an online business because their security wasn't good enough. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
totoro;171750 Wrote: Yeah, I thought of that after posting. It might be impossible to balance having dealers _and_ selling direct. That said, if someone wanted to use the services of a dealer, why would they demo from bel canto first? I'd assume in that case, they'd have a dealer they could get to reasonably easily. If the problem is that their dealers are undercutting them, then they've probably set the price too high (my original point). I would have thought that the _only_ thing their dealers would be capable of competing on would have to be service (not just repairs, but the whole package). Given the fact that they're selling direct for more than they sell wholesale, I would think that they could set their price so that it would be uneconomic for dealers to undercut them. But still, there are other companies that do both that don't charge these restocking fees (benchmark being one, I think). The whole thing is somewhat unconvincing to me (others of course may disagree). This whole thing is a diversion from the main point of this thread, that their website offer was misleading. There are a couple of reasons why a consumer might do what Bel Canto describes: -There are some dealers who will not accomodate a home-demo (either via policy or that they just don't have the specific component available) -There are some dealers who unethically discount and sell into other dealers' territories...so the consumer demos the unit to determine that s/he likes it, then solicits bids from as many dealers as s/he can to get the lowest price. The issue with lowering the price is this...there is an industry-accepted standard range for dealer margin. If Bel Canto does anything to lower this margin (ie. lower the retail price without lowering the dealer price), then the dealer is incented to sell a higher-margin product to his/her customer...and Bel Canto essentially loses a dealer. Regarding Benchmark, there's a reason why you don't see many high end dealers representing them...they offer a tiny margin, and most dealers would rather represent a higher-margin product. Most of Benchmark's retailers are pro audio businesses that have lower dealer margins and tend to do higher volume. For the record, I don't run my business based on the margins I get...I basically only represent the stuff that I own myself, regardless of the margins...but what I've described above is the reality of most high end audio dealer businesses... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
PhilNYC;171756 Wrote: There are a couple of reasons why a consumer might do what Bel Canto describes: -There are some dealers who will not accomodate a home-demo (either via policy or that they just don't have the specific component available) -There are some dealers who unethically discount and sell into other dealers' territories...so the consumer demos the unit to determine that s/he likes it, then solicits bids from as many dealers as s/he can to get the lowest price. The issue with lowering the price is this...there is an industry-accepted standard range for dealer margin. If Bel Canto does anything to lower this margin (ie. lower the retail price without lowering the dealer price), then the dealer is incented to sell a higher-margin product to his/her customer...and Bel Canto essentially loses a dealer. Regarding Benchmark, there's a reason why you don't see many high end dealers representing them...they offer a tiny margin, and most dealers would rather represent a higher-margin product. Most of Benchmark's retailers are pro audio businesses that have lower dealer margins and tend to do higher volume. For the record, I don't run my business based on the margins I get...I basically only represent the stuff that I own myself, regardless of the margins...but what I've described above is the reality of most high end audio dealer businesses... I see your point. The issue might be then that they need to shit or get off the pot, ie, decide whether they're a direct business or a dealer oriented one. Not a fun position to be in, I guess, but they initiated the whole thing themselves. Again, I view this discussion as orthogonal to the misleading marketing. Sure, there are valid reasons to have this policy. But this doesn't excuse being misleading or dishonest about it. I personally don't think there is such a thing as dishonest discounting. The obverse is really price-fixing, which is illegal in some cases, and is certainly not how a market is supposed to work. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
PhilNYC;171756 Wrote: There are a couple of reasons why a consumer might do what Bel Canto describes: -There are some dealers who will not accomodate a home-demo (either via policy or that they just don't have the specific component available) -There are some dealers who unethically discount and sell into other dealers' territories...so the consumer demos the unit to determine that s/he likes it, then solicits bids from as many dealers as s/he can to get the lowest price. The issue with lowering the price is this...there is an industry-accepted standard range for dealer margin. If Bel Canto does anything to lower this margin (ie. lower the retail price without lowering the dealer price), then the dealer is incented to sell a higher-margin product to his/her customer...and Bel Canto essentially loses a dealer. Regarding Benchmark, there's a reason why you don't see many high end dealers representing them...they offer a tiny margin, and most dealers would rather represent a higher-margin product. Most of Benchmark's retailers are pro audio businesses that have lower dealer margins and tend to do higher volume. For the record, I don't run my business based on the margins I get...I basically only represent the stuff that I own myself, regardless of the margins...but what I've described above is the reality of most high end audio dealer businesses... This is off my original point(that the advertisement is unacceptably misleading) but what about the concept of risk-reward? If they want the reward of vastly higher price directly to them(versus their sale price to the dealer) why won't they take the risk of a possible return? Obviously, they appease their dealers by selling at full retail. I personally would not have demoed from them had I had another choice. (knowing no dealer would get full retail for their product) -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
This will be my last post on the subject, because I think the original point by wshield has been made and we're getting somewhat off-topic. But I will mention that this whole selling-direct thing is still very new to Bel Canto...they just started with the direct thing a couple of months ago, and I'm sure they are still just in the process of getting the kinks out. And it's entirely possible that they are headed in a direction that will eventually cut out high-end dealers such as my business, and instead pursue the likes of places like Best Buy, Tweeter, and other higher-volume retail businesses that can handle lower-margin products. In their defense, they've been very up-front with dealers such as myself when they decided to go to the direct-sale model, and as I've said before, I've not had any significant issues in my manufacturer-dealer relationship with them. -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
PhilNYC;171765 Wrote: This will be my last post on the subject, because I think the original point by wshield has been made and we're getting somewhat off-topic. But I will mention that this whole selling-direct thing is still very new to Bel Canto...they just started with the direct thing a couple of months ago, and I'm sure they are still just in the process of getting the kinks out. And it's entirely possible that they are headed in a direction that will eventually cut out high-end dealers such as my business, and instead pursue the likes of places like Best Buy, Tweeter, and other higher-volume retail businesses that can handle lower-margin products. In their defense, they've been very up-front with dealers such as myself when they decided to go to the direct-sale model, and as I've said before, I've not had any significant issues in my manufacturer-dealer relationship with them. Sorry, I was a major participant in the OT-ness :). Just in case I come across as being rabidly anti-dealer, I _have_ bought equipment from all three of my major local dealers over the last 10 years (equipment that only each had, not because I was playing them off against each other). -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
wshields;171752 Wrote: It is misleading Marketing. If you want to accept it as okay and allow it to become the norm, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. No..I detest such ads.. but it's all over the place, what can you do about it? Just turn on your TV: Cable phone, call anywhere for $29.99 only yeah right, then you have to pay another $15 tax. Came in for a brake service for $99! Yeah right, you end up paying $800! Buy a sleep number bed, starting $599 Yeah right, the moment you enter the store, the price goes up to $2000! -- 95bcwh 95bcwh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4358 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
I've been lurking on the sidelines here, and just had to add my $.02. I have to agree that such a misleading banner tells an awful lot about a compnay and its practices. Maybe BC is an honest enterprise at its core, but they aren;t getting my business. This policy is just too front-n-center to be a mistake or to give them the benefit of the doubt that it was overlooked. On the other hand, companies like Moscode, and company leaders like George Kaye, are to be commended. His newest amplifier, the hybrid highly vaunted 200 wpc Moscode 401HR, is available for home evaluation in what George calls a 33 1/3 day evaluation. There are many things to like about this program, and this company. First, he doesn't need to do this, based on the incredible reviews the 401HR is getting. Second, his website goes out of its way to insist that you read the fine print. What you'll find is that other than a hard stop at 34 days, George and company take on all the risks, not the customer. Sure, the amp needs to return in the same pristine shipping condition it left in, but otherwise the customer pays no shippingeither way! The customer pays no restocking fees (unless damaged, of course) and the customer gets 100% refund on his Discover card or other form of payment. I took George up on the offer, eval'd the incredible amp for 30 days, and unfortunately found that my system had become too warm for my tastes with its insertion (mainly due to room issues and many tubed source/preamp choices). George even tried to ask me to keep it a few days longer and try various tube rolling ideas. Net/netTHIS is the way in-home evaluations should take place. And should I ever need a product in a category that Moscode competes in, they are my first choice and I use a why not Moscode approach to every evaluation. -- ted_b ted_b's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3289 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Yeah, service is surprisingly easy, and people find it so easy to tell it from sales. Some companies want you to be happy, so you tell everyone, and some want to sell you stuff. Selling direct cuts out such a lot of overhead (mainly dealer margin) that one should expect both good prices and good service. However, the manufacturers are used to dealing with professionals (i.e. dealers); this means they aren't used to providing service. My angle on BC is that they should expect returns from selling direct, whether they make this offer or not - some people will return the product, it's inevitable. However, a far lower percentage will do this than the dealer takes (assuming the product is OK), so you're quids in. Getting a claw-back strikes me as greed, or ineptitude. They're trying to sell rather than provide a service. Desperation? Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette: Your observations are a little undersupported by the data. :) I doubt that anyone else here was as upset by all of this as you were. I've been zinging you more out of perversity than anything else. That said, now that the gloves are off, I'll make a few observations which I think are supported by the data, in no particular order. 1. You have an overly thin skin (see your reaction to my hoist by your own petard statement) 2. You are an obnoxious jerk (this whole thread stands as evidence for that) 3. You have such poor reasoning skills that I wouldn't allow you into my group as an intern (see your claim that using a device which supports the new n proposed standard would magically fix all networking problems: see also your assumption that anyone would get really upset by your last screed). 4. In addition to being stupid, you're self-important (see all of the numerous gratuitous references you have made to your profession) 5. You think that logic is something that lawyers study (a bit of a pet peeve of mine, having taken 9 semesters of the subject) 6. You're a parasite: you've been in a lot of arguments here, but I haven't seen you actually help anyone. sayonara, bozo -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette;169793 Wrote: I, for one, don't get the need to whine on Internet forums. Why not? The OP clearly attempted to get BC to correct this oversight or blatant cash grab, in complete privacy. They failed to do so or even bother to answer. They were given the opportunity to correct the situation and chose not to do so. So now they deserve to either be publicly shamed or at least have the community at large become aware of what they're up to. An Internet forum reaches a LOT of like-minded people (with disposable incomes, I might add!) Of all the avenues available to the OP, it is, by far, the best medium to expose their practices to the greatest number of people. And what's more, it's finely targeted to the people who actually purchase these products - a letter to the New York Times, say, would actually reach less interested people who were not as inclined to purchase BC products. I used to associate Bel Canto with a bunch of high-end audiophile companies that I may be able to buy something from someday. I now put them in their own group - a high-end audiophile company that I will never buy anything from someday. Ethics in marketing and business is severely lacking these days. There's an increasing feeling the consumer is growing sick and tired of it and unethical practices are being exposed and publicly ridiculed. That is exactly as it should be. These companies richly deserve it. -- Mark Lanctot Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Mark Lanctot;169973 Wrote: It would be about as convincing and sincere as a Mel Gibson or Michael Richards apology You made me snort coffee through my nose! -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
totoro;170016 Wrote: You made me snort coffee through my nose! Sorry. :-) -- Mark Lanctot Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
totoro;170016 Wrote: You made me snort coffee through my nose! Is that better than red bull? -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Skunk;170030 Wrote: Is that better than red bull? Mark-- you should be! Skunk-- I think yes. A sugar crust on the nose really hurts. :) cheers, Michael -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
The smallprint shouldn't contradict the large boasting headline. I suspect a court would agree with that. In the real world we expect honesty. If we get the opposite the word goes around and the offender will be punished -no courts involved. It's up to each and everyone to make his own gudgement on the accuracy of reality vs. bragging. lafayette;169498 Wrote: The bottom line is this: 1. There is a big banner that says guarantee. Guess what? It is a link. A five year old could figure that out. 2. Before commiting $2,500 on a purchase, it would perhaps be wise to spend 2 minutes reading over the details. This isn't in the least bit misleading. Yes, it is a no risk policy -- you don't like it, you send it back. There is a caveat, though, about a restocking fee. This is not uncommon! Try ordering something from any of the major camera suppliers. My God, man, you are blaming someone else for your own laziness in not reading material which was readily available to you. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Whenever I want to make use of an audition policy I read the fine print. But I am a cynic. However , acknowledging our 1st posters error in not reading more carefully does not exonerate BC IMHO. Having read Bel Cantos policy I would not audition their product directly from them. Most companies don't have a restocking fee and some don't even charge the shipping. It is hard for me to think that BC doesn't know exactly what it is doing and how it is being misleading. They should rewrite their policy if for no other reason than good customer relations. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette, Even a 4 year old could see to call something a No Risk Purchase Plan when it charges a 5% restocking fee is clearly misleading. I have never blamed anyone for anything other than to say the policy is misleading and should be changed. You wrote: 1. There is a big banner that says guarantee. Guess what? It is a link. A five year old could figure that out. I don't see guarantee mentioned anywhere on a banner. Furthermore the linked info mentions No Risk Purchase Plan four times before any mention of a restocking fee. Do you think that is an accident? -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
The OP said he had no local dealer and thus purchased online. To me, no risk means no risk -- we are confident enough in our product that we are willing to let you try it out and return it if it is not to your satisfaction, no questions asked and no cost (other than possibly shipping, which should be clearly specified). The online shoe seller Zappos has the best policy I have found. You can keep their products for up to a year, and if you decide to return them, you print out a postage-paid mailing label from their website. If a shoe seller can do this, a high-end (high-margin) audio dealer should be able to, as well. -- Kyle Kyle's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2541 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
CCRDude;169536 Wrote: In Germany, consumer protection for such things is quite good. If you order something by phone, fax or Internet, you have two weeks to return it - without even having to give a reason, and the seller may not charge you anything if you just used it in a way thats required for testing it. It's the same in the UK (maybe all over the EU?). I've had no dealings with Bel Canto, but this seems pretty poor practice and would make me wary of dealing with them. -- Fifer Fifer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette: Even a child can see that there is a major difference between Risk Free and Risk Free with Major Caveats, although apparently some lawyers can't. The banner didn't say Risk Free with Major Caveats. This behavior on Bel Canto's part is pretty clearly unethical in many people's ethical system. Whether it's legal or not doesn't really have any bearing on whether it's wrong. I certainly wouldn't do business with them, and it seems that some others feel the same way. If you condone unethical behavior, that's your business, but being snotty to others while doing so doesn't present you in a very flattering light. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
It's interesting to contrast the US and EU here. In the EU, consumer protection is very strong - distance selling legislation exists such that you can return products for no reason, and get a full refund, with the issue of shipping being the only bone of contention. This makes total sense to me - if you are buying direct, the manufacturer does not have to pay the 40% or so mark-up of the retailer, so takes some additional risk. He's also usually offering less service - the dealer would normally do more than merely transact the sale - so it all balances out. I don't know of any similar protection in the US - you are protected by contract law only, and so need to read the TCs, which in this case seem to be in BC's favour. It is an awful way to do business though, I think. I have always been a fan of TCs that say This is the important bit (2 paragraphs, the contentious stuff) This is the small print (2 pages, mostly irrelevant stuff). They're getting rarer. I wasn't planning to become a BC customer anytime soon, and there's even less chance now! Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Actually, I agree with you. I think the re-stocking fee, given the fairly outrageous price of the product, is plain silly. I also think they should state the re-stocking fee on the FRONT page and I can see how someone could overlook it and come to woe afterwards. I am sorry for having been snotty. Too many other things on my mind. However, I think it was unfair for the original poster to rant on this and another forum. He did so while CES was going on -- which makes it hard to communicate with any audio company -- and, well, he really didn't read the fine print. A little time spent on the site, before or after the purchase, would have clarified the situation. Also, to paraphrase Radish, this doesn't seem to belong on this forum. Personal qualms about another company don't have much to do with the direct discussion of Slim Devices products. Again, I do ask forgiveness of the forum for my short response. totoro;169568 Wrote: lafayette: Even a child can see that there is a major difference between Risk Free and Risk Free with Major Caveats, although apparently some lawyers can't. The banner didn't say Risk Free with Major Caveats. This behavior on Bel Canto's part is pretty clearly unethical in many people's ethical system. Whether it's legal or not doesn't really have any bearing on whether it's wrong. I certainly wouldn't do business with them, and it seems that some others feel the same way. If you condone unethical behavior, that's your business, but being snotty to others while doing so doesn't present you in a very flattering light. -- lafayette Sweet Home Alabama lafayette's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9022 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette;169601 Wrote: I am sorry for having been snotty. Too many other things on my mind. Personal qualms about another company don't have much to do with the direct discussion of Slim Devices products. Again, I do ask forgiveness of the forum for my short response. In your first post, yoiu made assumptions about what the OP had done (no RMA) and took off flaming him. You demanded that he apologize. The OP noted that he had gotten an RMA number. You have continued to attack the OP for not reading the fine print. Apologize to the OP and shut up. Bill -- Listener Listener's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2508 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Lafayette, You say Actually, I agree with you. I think the re-stocking fee, given the fairly outrageous price of the product, is plain silly. I also think they should state the re-stocking fee on the FRONT page and I can see how someone could overlook it and come to woe afterwards. You orginally said You have only yourself to blame and your post is rather shameless and baseless. Which is it? Furthermore you accused and berated me about sending the package back without an RMA when this was not the case and I gave no indication it was. Plenty of people on here are discussing dacs and their purchase decision on such. I posted to inform people to not believe the No Risk Headline and miss the caveat and overlook it and come to woe afterwards. Do you think you should apologize to Matt or John for saying I think the re-stocking fee, given the fairly outrageous price of the product, is plain silly or are you the only one entitled to voice his opinions? -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
On the other hand consumer rights organisations are much stronger and more active in the US, I believe. BelCanto was just another name for me earlier, but now I have some info which I can attach to that name.. That is exactly what misleading people will do to a name. adamslim;169575 Wrote: It's interesting to contrast the US and EU here. In the EU, consumer protection is very strong - distance selling legislation exists such that you can return products for no reason, and get a full refund, with the issue of shipping being the only bone of contention. This makes total sense to me - if you are buying direct, the manufacturer does not have to pay the 40% or so mark-up of the retailer, so takes some additional risk. He's also usually offering less service - the dealer would normally do more than merely transact the sale - so it all balances out. I don't know of any similar protection in the US - you are protected by contract law only, and so need to read the TCs, which in this case seem to be in BC's favour. It is an awful way to do business though, I think. I have always been a fan of TCs that say This is the important bit (2 paragraphs, the contentious stuff) This is the small print (2 pages, mostly irrelevant stuff). They're getting rarer. I wasn't planning to become a BC customer anytime soon, and there's even less chance now! Adam -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Kyle wrote: The OP said he had no local dealer and thus purchased online. To me, no risk means no risk -- we are confident enough in our product that we are willing to let you try it out and return it if it is not to your satisfaction, no questions asked and no cost (other than possibly shipping, which should be clearly specified). Let me be clear here: I agree with the OP that this is not best practice, and not something that could happen in Europe because of distance selling laws. However, the following thought occurred to me while reading Kyle's post (I've read all the others, so this is not something that came to me immediately) no risk is actually not the same as no cost no risk means that the vendor guarantees to accept the unit back from you. no cost means that the vendor will not charge you anything. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Robin Bowes;169661 Wrote: Kyle wrote: The OP said he had no local dealer and thus purchased online. To me, no risk means no risk -- we are confident enough in our product that we are willing to let you try it out and return it if it is not to your satisfaction, no questions asked and no cost (other than possibly shipping, which should be clearly specified). Let me be clear here: I agree with the OP that this is not best practice, and not something that could happen in Europe because of distance selling laws. However, the following thought occurred to me while reading Kyle's post (I've read all the others, so this is not something that came to me immediately) no risk is actually not the same as no cost no risk means that the vendor guarantees to accept the unit back from you. no cost means that the vendor will not charge you anything. R. Perhaps. I read it differently. To me no risk means no risk of losing money. I would bet that this is a more common reading than yours. Of course, this is one of the things that makes linguistics hard: not everyone reads a statement the same way. I still contend that it was intentionally misleading. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
totoro;169667 Wrote: Perhaps. I read it differently. To me no risk means no risk of losing money. I would bet that this is a more common reading than yours. Of course, this is one of the things that makes linguistics hard: not everyone reads a statement the same way. I still contend that it was intentionally misleading. What other risk could there be? The manufacturer coming home to beat you up if you try to return the product? ;-D No, I think it is pretty clear that risk always means financial loss when used about transactions like these. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Robin Bowes;169661 Wrote: Kyle wrote: The OP said he had no local dealer and thus purchased online. To me, no risk means no risk -- we are confident enough in our product that we are willing to let you try it out and return it if it is not to your satisfaction, no questions asked and no cost (other than possibly shipping, which should be clearly specified). Let me be clear here: I agree with the OP that this is not best practice, and not something that could happen in Europe because of distance selling laws. However, the following thought occurred to me while reading Kyle's post (I've read all the others, so this is not something that came to me immediately) no risk is actually not the same as no cost no risk means that the vendor guarantees to accept the unit back from you. no cost means that the vendor will not charge you anything. R. Robin, that is certainly a valid point and I suspect that is the kind of fine distinction that could be made legally. But from an ethical POV I find it hard to interpret BC's copy as other than misleading. At any rate it seems to be bad for their image. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
tomjtx wrote: Robin Bowes;169661 Wrote: no risk is actually not the same as no cost no risk means that the vendor guarantees to accept the unit back from you. no cost means that the vendor will not charge you anything. Robin, that is certainly a valid point and I suspect that is the kind of fine distinction that could be made legally. But from an ethical POV I find it hard to interpret BC's copy as other than misleading. I agree entirely. I too would read no risk as no risk of it costing me anything and think that advertising the scheme as no risk whilst costing 5% is not good. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Given this discussion, I would like to take this opportunity to give a plug for Pacific Valve. I bought a LiTe Dac 68 and returned it within his 30 day return period, and he did not charge me a restocking fee. I read on his website that he now charges a 3% restocking fee unless something is being returned to swap for something else. Regardless of that, I thought their business practices were commendable. -- Ron F. Ron F.'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5616 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
P Floding;169651 Wrote: BelCanto was just another name for me earlier, but now I have some info which I can attach to that name.. That is exactly what misleading people will do to a name. This sucks. I'm a Bel Canto dealer. :-( I'll say that they've been very good to work with, even though they compete directly with me by having a web-store...they've always been responsive to questions, turnaround time for upgrades and repairs, etc. And I like their products very much. Am not a fan of their marketing copy, but then again, the only marketing that I think is great comes from Apple Computers... :-) -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
I did not take off flaming the poster. I did point out that he overlooked an important point of the deal -- and one readily found online. Okay, he had an RMA. It didn't sound like it. That's a done deal. However, the post did not belong on this forum. He essentially flamed BCD without having checked all the facts himself! And he did this on at least two forums! I'm sure you're a big, brave man who tells strangers on the street to shut up. Listener;169606 Wrote: In your first post, yoiu made assumptions about what the OP had done (no RMA) and took off flaming him. You demanded that he apologize. The OP noted that he had gotten an RMA number. You have continued to attack the OP for not reading the fine print. Apologize to the OP and shut up. Bill -- lafayette Sweet Home Alabama lafayette's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9022 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette wrote: Listener;169606 Wrote: In your first post, yoiu made assumptions about what the OP had done (no RMA) and took off flaming him. You demanded that he apologize. The OP noted that he had gotten an RMA number. You have continued to attack the OP for not reading the fine print. Apologize to the OP and shut up. I did not take off flaming the poster. I did point out that he overlooked an important point of the deal -- and one readily found online. Okay, he had an RMA. It didn't sound like it. That's a done deal. However, the post did not belong on this forum. He essentially flamed BCD without having checked all the facts himself! And he did this on at least two forums! I'm sure you're a big, brave man who tells strangers on the street to shut up. You, my friend, have a problem. This is not the first time you've laid into someone, and then taken umbrage when they give you some back. I would suggest that either you do not have sufficient experience of internet forums to know how to conduct yourself as you participate, or you are an immature, spoiled person who is used to yelling at people and getting his/her own way. Please wise up or grow up, which ever is appropriate. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette;169696 Wrote: Robin, Couldn't agree more. It could just be poor web site design, but that should make that upfront. I operate under the assumption that consumers, and especially consumers of high-end, expensive products, look fully into the details of their purchase before commiting to them. He failed to do so and, as I said, has only himself to blame. Still, you are right: 1. No risk does not mean not cost, and 2. They would do far better to list that caveat on the front page. Having failed to do so, knowing BCD, is more of an oversight than an ethical lapse. The more I think about it, the more I agree with P Floding and Robin's later assessment. The only sensible reading of no risk is no financial risk. P Floding hit the nail on the head for me when he said what other kind of risk is there? for this kind of transaction. This caveat means essentially, 30 day trial period with a $150 fee that can be applied towards the purchase price. Seriously: it's absolutely logically equivalent, as far as I can see. If that's what they said, at least they would have been obvious. IMHO what they did was commit a sleazy linguistic sleight of hand. I honestly don't think I know anyone who would interpret No Risk Trial and 30 day trial period with a $150 fee that can be applied towards the purchase price as having the same semantics. As I said earlier, whether or not this is a legal difference is a moot point. I won't do business with a company I perceive as being unethical. Who knows what other dirty tricks they might have up their sleeve, say when you need warrantee service? Kind of reminds me of the scene in the Meaning of Life where a guy has to give up his liver while he's still alive because he didn't read the fine print of his organ donor agreement. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
totoro;169707 Wrote: The more I think about it, the more I agree with P Floding and Robin's later assessment. The only sensible reading of no risk is no financial risk. P Floding hit the nail on the head for me when he said what other kind of risk is there? for this kind of transaction. This caveat means essentially, 30 day trial period with a $150 fee that can be applied towards the purchase price. Seriously: it's absolutely logically equivalent, as far as I can see. If that's what they had said, at least they would have been obvious. IMHO what they did was commit a sleazy linguistic sleight of hand. I honestly don't think I know anyone who would interpret No Risk Trial and 30 day trial period with a $150 fee that can be applied towards the purchase price as having the same semantics. As I said earlier, whether or not this is a legal difference is a moot point. I won't do business with a company I perceive as being unethical. Who knows what other dirty tricks they might have up their sleeve, say when you need warrantee service? Kind of reminds me of the scene in the Meaning of Life where a guy has to give up his liver while he's still alive because he didn't read the fine print of his organ donor agreement. Let's hope BCD looks at this thread. They should be alarmed by all this bad publicity and perhaps they will take steps to improve their image. Is squeezing the 150.00 out of the OP worth all this bad PR? -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
To me not just should there not have been any restocking fee the postage to and from should be refunded. No Risk is just that, you don't risk anything. Anything short of this policy is deception, intentional or not. When I run into a situation like this I always have to wonder if the difference between the claim and reality is deliberately intended to deceive or just laziness on the part of the marketer. Both situations are depressingly common. Having said that, I agree the original poster should have read the policy and not inferred the obvious. I have found after decades of mail order buying that you need to read policies very carefully if you think there is any chance you may return it. It seems that with the advent of e-tailing and the intense competition that has ensued the mail/email order places are getting nastier and more crooked. Caveat Emptor -- regalma1 regalma1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6658 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Lafayette, you state: However, the post did not belong on this forum. He essentially flamed BCD without having checked all the facts himself! And he did this on at least two forums! Read my orginal post. Where did I flame them?? I stated I thought their No Risk Purchase Plan was misleading. Then I told exactly what happened in my situation. If they look bad it is because of what THEY did, not what I said. What facts did I not check? -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette Wrote: I'm sure you're a big, brave man who tells strangers on the street to shut up. You can't edit an email :P Ten seconds of happy thoughts before posting might go a long way towards making friends in cyberspace. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
By the way, I did crosspost this on Audiogon. Here is what someone else had to say 01-12-07: Mchd1 Wshields: I understand your feelings about this. I purchased the player over the telephone and was not told about the restocking fee even though we discussed the option of returning the player if I was not happy with it. It was only after I received the player and decided to return it that I saw the restocking fee statement on their webpage when I was looking for information about the return process. I can live with the 5% restocking fee. What is irritating to me is that the company doesn't seem to be in any hurry to refund any of my money. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl1168110920openflup154#15 -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Lafayette, Show me were I bad mouthed the company. I told what happened. I did not make anything up or say anything other than what happened. If THEY look bad it is because of what they did and how they presented this policy. Read my original post. -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
wshields;169761 Wrote: By the way, I did crosspost this on Audiogon. Here is what someone else had to say 01-12-07: Mchd1 Wshields: I understand your feelings about this. I purchased the player over the telephone and was not told about the restocking fee even though we discussed the option of returning the player if I was not happy with it. It was only after I received the player and decided to return it that I saw the restocking fee statement on their webpage when I was looking for information about the return process. I can live with the 5% restocking fee. What is irritating to me is that the company doesn't seem to be in any hurry to refund any of my money. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl1168110920openflup154#15 Maybe you should post on Audio Circle as well. The more bad PR BCD gets,the more likely they are to clean up their act. That audiogon post says it all. If BCD didn't disclose the fee on the phone then one can reasonably conclude BCD is being deliberately deceptive. The more I hear the more I dislike this company. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette;169760 Wrote: That's an easy one: 1. You bad-mouthed the company for following a published policy. 2. What facts did you not check? Must I restate the obvious? You did not check the specifics of the policy. There is an obvious link to it. Most reasonable people about to make a very expensive purchase -- or at least many -- would bother to read the details. There. I think I've said it two or three times now. Give us all a break. We've walked through what a sensible reading of No risk trial means. The only sensible meaning is no financial risk. Yes, it is _possible_ to read it some other way, but, in reality, any other meaning relies on some _other_ risk that nobody here has defined. I can't imagine anyone seriously arguing otherwise on this point. If you have fine print which contradicts the only sensible reading of your huge banner text, you are being dishonest and sleazy. End of story, really. And again: maybe it's legal, but who cares? I'll put it very bluntly-- calling someone who acts in a sleazy manner sleazy is not bad-mouthing them: it's merely telling the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Everyone has a definition of sensible. My definition: When making a high-priced purchase, make your you understand everything about the situation. Read all the fine print (I mean, it was there, and it was there linked from the front page and NOT in fine print). Ask questions. Probe. Do you buy a car without asking as many questions about the contract and warranty as possible? Without asking for definitions? If you don't, well, then it is your problem. totoro;169778 Wrote: Give us all a break. We've walked through what a sensible reading of No risk trial means. The only sensible meaning is no financial risk. Yes, it is _possible_ to read it some other way, but, in reality, any other meaning relies on some _other_ risk that nobody here has defined. I can't imagine anyone seriously arguing otherwise on this point. If you have fine print which contradicts the only sensible reading of your huge banner text, you are being dishonest and sleazy. End of story, really. And again: maybe it's legal, but who cares? I'll put it very bluntly-- calling someone who acts in a sleazy manner sleazy is not bad-mouthing them: it's merely telling the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts. -- lafayette Sweet Home Alabama lafayette's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9022 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
That's silly. Two (or one) customers who didn't fully understand the process compared to thousands of very pleased Bel Canto customers...and the company is somehow sleazy? Let's suppose they let this thing fall through the cracks. It happens. I once sent an amp to McIntosh for repair and it came back without having been repaired. Does that impugn McIntosh or make me dislike the company? Of course not. Things happen. Instead of blathering on in cyberspace -- what the hell is that going to accomplish? -- why not pick up the phone on Monday, when everyone will be back from CES, and have a chat with them? Is it so hard to have a little reserve of patience? tomjtx;169772 Wrote: Maybe you should post on Audio Circle as well. The more bad PR BCD gets,the more likely they are to clean up their act. That audiogon post says it all. If BCD didn't disclose the fee on the phone then one can reasonably conclude BCD is being deliberately deceptive. The more I hear the more I dislike this company. -- lafayette Sweet Home Alabama lafayette's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9022 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
tomjtx;169772 Wrote: Maybe you should post on Audio Circle as well. The more bad PR BCD gets,the more likely they are to clean up their act. That audiogon post says it all. If BCD didn't disclose the fee on the phone then one can reasonably conclude BCD is being deliberately deceptive. The more I hear the more I dislike this company. Maybe I will, but only if lafayette promises to go over there and call me stupid and lazy. I would so much miss his input. -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette;169783 Wrote: Do you buy a car without asking as many questions about the contract and warranty as possible? Without asking for definitions? If you don't, well, then it is your problem. No, I wouldn't, but I'd walk away from a dealership where the fine print contradicts what's in the sales splash, thinking they were untrustworthy. -- Fifer Fifer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette;169787 Wrote: That's silly. Two (or one) customers who didn't fully understand the process compared to thousands of very pleased Bel Canto customers...and the company is somehow sleazy? Let's suppose they let this thing fall through the cracks. It happens. I once sent an amp to McIntosh for repair and it came back without having been repaired. Does that impugn McIntosh or make me dislike the company? Of course not. Things happen. Instead of blathering on in cyberspace -- what the hell is that going to accomplish? -- why not pick up the phone on Monday, when everyone will be back from CES, and have a chat with them? Is it so hard to have a little reserve of patience? As I stated before, I tried to talk to them about it. I wanted to go straight to John. Matt did not return my correspondence sent on January 2nd and I don't have any contact info for John. I find it hard to believe he didn't have any time between Jan 2 and Jan 8(when Ces started) to reply to my email. -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
But the fine print -- and it isn't fine -- does not contradict the splash. See Robin's post on the matter. Look. If you bank ever screws something up on your account do you run screwing to the Internet about it? Or a mechanic who did a less than spectacular job one time? Or maybe a dish that was served too cold but then replaced? Would you? Do people really have to complain about every aspect of their personal business -- and this is personal busiess, so where are you, Radish? -- on the Internet? I, for one, don't get the need to whine on Internet forums. Fifer;169790 Wrote: No, I wouldn't, but I'd walk away from a dealership where the fine print contradicts what's in the sales splash, thinking they were untrustworthy. -- lafayette Sweet Home Alabama lafayette's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9022 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette;169783 Wrote: Everyone has a definition of sensible. My definition: When making a high-priced purchase, make your you understand everything about the situation. Read all the fine print (I mean, it was there, and it was there linked from the front page and NOT in fine print). Ask questions. Probe. Do you buy a car without asking as many questions about the contract and warranty as possible? Without asking for definitions? If you don't, well, then it is your problem. Whether the OP's behavior was sensible is neither here nor there for our purposes here. If I leave my house unlocked, it doesn't mean it's ok for someone to walk in and take my belongings. And you are applying the word sensible to the behavior of the OP. This is not what I was talking about. I was talking about the interpretation of the phrase Risk Free Trial. If you can come up with a plausible alternative reading, please share it. They clearly meant to give people the impression that they meant Risk Free Trial, when they were really offering Risk Free with Major Caveats. To reiterate. Regardless of whether the OP's behavior was incautious, Bel Canto behaved poorly. Their only possible defense is that they were sloppy in the design of their marketing materials. This may be a good legal defense, but I personally am sick to the teeth of it: we've seen this time again from politicians and corporate malefactors. It seems pretty obvious that they were intentionally being deceptive. Even if it _were_ sloppiness, it would ensure that I never did business with them. The fact remains: I now regard Bel Canto as a company not worth doing business with. It apparently appears that way many others on this thread, as well. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette;169787 Wrote: That's silly. Two (or one) customers who didn't fully understand the process compared to thousands of very pleased Bel Canto customers...and the company is somehow sleazy? Sometimes an otherwise good company is going down the sleazy route due to new bad management or new crappy marketing people. I don't understand why you go on about mistakes etc, when it is perfectly clear they boast about one thing and then do something entirely different in practice? Oh, and I didn't read the small-print when I bought my car as it was from a reputable company (BMW). The car industry has converged on certain standards for accountability -at least in Europe. Companies misrepresenting their commitment SHOULD be exposed and slandered. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
The fact remains: I now regard Bel Canto as a company not worth doing business with. It apparently appears that way many others on this thread, as well. Well said, totoro. Their deceptive web page should make anyone hesitant to buy their product. Their treatment of returns is the nail in the coffin for me. There are 3 people on audiogon complaining they haven't received their refundsthat's enough to make me worry that this is a pattern, not an exception. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
wshields;169797 Wrote: Please everyone, do not be baited by lafayette. It is obvious that he would like this thread to go away. Lets not give the moderator any reason to call this a flame war and close the thread. Thanks I wouldn't worry too much about a moderator closing this thread. This is very tame in comparison to some other threads on this forum :-). It's one of the things I like about the slim forums: they are pretty free wheling and people aren't afraid to express their opinion. This is a contrast to audio circle which sometimes is overmoderated for my taste. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
tomjtx;169800 Wrote: The fact remains: I now regard Bel Canto as a company not worth doing business with. It apparently appears that way many others on this thread, as well. Well said, totoro. Their deceptive web page should make anyone hesitant to buy their product. Their treatment of returns is the nail in the coffin for me. There are 3 people on audiogon complaining they haven't received their refundsthat's enough to make me worry that this is a pattern, not an exception. Well, there are two things to consider here: 1 - I've never been of the impression that audio people are any good at writing things like marketing copy or promotional material. 2 - Bel Canto just started selling direct a few months ago, and the slow response to requests for refunds might simply be the result of their adjusting from being a manufacturer to being a manufacturer-retailer. These aren't meant to justify the behaviour at all, but simply a possible explanation of why things are happening the way they are. As I said above, I've found Bel Canto extremely good to work with in a manufacturer-dealer relationship...I'd be surprised if they were intentionally misleading people or being dishonest with customers... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Lafayette said: Instead of blathering on in cyberspace -- Come on Lafayette, you can blather aswell as the rest of us :-) -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette;169793 Wrote: I, for one, don't get the need to whine on Internet forums. Sure you do. You've done it plenty of times when others have criticized you on this forum. Hoist by your own petard there, I'd say. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Whatever. This sure does have a lot to do with audio. I think I made this point about this forum: there is a lot of criticism, most or all of it personal and, well, pointless. I have better things to do with my time than to follow this. totoro;169820 Wrote: Sure you do. You've done it plenty of times when others have criticized you on this forum. Hoist by your own petard there, I'd say. -- lafayette Sweet Home Alabama lafayette's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9022 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette;169844 Wrote: Whatever. This sure does have a lot to do with audio. I think I made this point about this forum: there is a lot of criticism, most or all of it personal and, well, pointless. I have better things to do with my time than to follow this. Hmm.. whining again ah well, not surprising. Pretty funny coming from someone who made a pretty personal attack on the OP, though. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette;169844 Wrote: Whatever. This sure does have a lot to do with audio. I think I made this point about this forum: there is a lot of criticism, most or all of it personal and, well, pointless. I have better things to do with my time than to follow this. See ya. Thanks for helping to get my message out. -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette;169844 Wrote: Whatever. This sure does have a lot to do with audio. I think I made this point about this forum: there is a lot of criticism, most or all of it personal and, well, pointless. I have better things to do with my time than to follow this. S. Take the opportunity. Shhh Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette wrote: Whatever. This sure does have a lot to do with audio. I think I made this point about this forum: there is a lot of criticism, most or all of it personal and, well, pointless. ...and recently, mostly started by you. I have better things to do with my time than to follow this. Please close the door on the way out. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
adamslim;169851 Wrote: S. Take the opportunity. Shhh Adam OK, OK :-) -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette;169879 Wrote: Couldn't resist. You are a bunch of hypocritical, probably lonely and single, and definitely sad little shits. This is called reciprocity. I hope you enjoy an evening of elevated blood pressure. Has Bel canto called you yet to ask if you would PLEASE stop defending them? -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
.. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
lafayette wrote: Couldn't resist. You are a bunch of hypocritical, probably lonely and single, and definitely sad little shits. This is called reciprocity. I hope you enjoy an evening of elevated blood pressure. Heh, you really think we take any of this stuff half as seriously as you do? Man, you've got a lot to learn. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
I know I'm pretty late to this party, but I did read through the thread. I will offer the following as a customer of both Bel Canto and Slim Devices. 1. I have a Bel Canto S300 amp that I bought online earlier this summer. I love it - it is a great buy and a keeper. However, I did not try to return it after evaluation. 2. That said, I consider their large print No Risk Purchase Plan wording on their web site to be misleading. Sure, one ought to read the fine print in any deal, but it shouldn't directly contradict the large print. This one does. I do not think it is an intentional effort to mislead, but it should certainly be corrected. As someone else pointed out, no risk is a sales situation only refers to financial risk. To evaluate and return their product involves a permanent loss of part of the purchase price. When a headline shouts no risk the fine print should back up that statement. Bel Canto should recognize that, fix either the headline or their policy, and move on. I've been an SB3 user for some time (and a SliMP3 prior) and am currently evaluating a Transporter (it just arrived yesterday.) Right now I have no clue if it is a keeper - it is a clear improvement over the SB3 but it's going to be a tough decision since I don't know if I'm hearing $1,700 worth of better yet. Who knows, maybe I'll get to test Slim Device's return policy. -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
I am very fond of Bel Canto. They make good products, they are professionals, and they are extremely friendly and flexible with customers. Having said that, you have got to be kidding, right? You didn't bother reading the page on the policy? You know, the page that specifies the return policy? It's right here: http://belcantodesign.com/sup_30day.html It is not hidden away. It sounds like you didn't even bother to get an RMA. Returns almost ALWAYS, with ANY company, require an RMA. You have only yourself to blame. You have no reason to bitch at Matt or John and you certainly have no reason to make a case of it here. You owe BCD a public apology. -- lafayette Sweet Home Alabama lafayette's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9022 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
I got an RMA. Why would a company call something a NO RISK Purchase plan then charge a 5% restocking fee? What does no risk mean to you smart guy? -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
wshields;169421 Wrote: I emailed Matt over a week ago asking for some info or the contact info of their CEO to discuss this with. I have not received any reply. Matt has been at CES all week... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
Phil, I emailed Matt on Tuesday January 2nd. My belief at this point is he has no intention of replying. My main goal at this point is to get them to remove the Big No Risk Purchase Plan banner on their how to buy page. I just think it is dishonest to call something no risk and then charge a restocking fee. Thanks for the info though. -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
I have to agree on this one. A 'No risk' policy would make me think there is no restocking fee. I understand the reasons for a restocking fee and realize it says there may be one in the fine print. Still, I think it is a bit misleading. -- wdrazek wdrazek's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8997 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
PhilNYC;169442 Wrote: Matt has been at CES all week... what, no email access there? ... sorry, could not resist that :) -- Howie Howie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=359 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
wdrazek;169449 Wrote: I have to agree on this one. A 'No risk' policy would make me think there is no restocking fee. I understand the reasons for a restocking fee and realize it says there may be one in the fine print. Still, I think it is a bit misleading. I have no experience with Bel Canto (although I understand they have a good reputation), but I took a look at the return policy webpage, and I have to agree with the OP - it's pretty misleading. First they announce prominently that it's no risk, then later (in a section not obviously related to the no-risk policy) they say they reserve the right to charge 5% on returns, and then at the very bottom they say they *will* charge 5%. Given that some kind of return policy - usually 30 days, often without a fee - is standard for consumer electronics, IMO their policy doesn't inspire much confidence in their product. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
I think the lesson here is to support your local dealer... ;-) -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
I agree that local dealers should be used if possible. I don't know of any in my area that carry Bel Canto Dacs. I was taking a couple of weeks off from work so I wanted to get the Dac right away to try it out while I had time. That probably also contributed to my less than complete review of the offer. (btw I paid for overnight shipping and it was never my intention to try it for free and then send it back. Just the shipping back and forth cost me ~$200) -- wshields wshields's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8639 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
I agree that no risk is very misleading. Bel Canto should be ashamed of itself. The shipping is misleading as well. They don't get to that till the end either. The fact that they say may be charged and later say will be deducted leads one to believe that their misleading is intentional. It would be interesting to see what a consumer attorney would say about it -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Bel Canto No Risk Purchase Plan
wshields;169437 Wrote: I got an RMA. Why would a company call something a NO RISK Purchase plan then charge a 5% restocking fee? What does no risk mean to you smart guy? It means no risk to THEM, silly! TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=31562 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
