Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
hitler On 8/11/07 21:52, Michael Sparks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 08 November 2007 13:09, Brian Butterworth wrote: But it is the origination of netiquette - the document is dated October 1995, No, it's not. Nettiquette's been around a lot longer than 95. The first place I came across the concept was via my brother in '91 and that was due to seeing a copy of Emily Postnews's guide. The earliest copy google groups (nee deja news) has of this as far as I can tell is this: * http://tinyurl.com/2w8654 Which is 19 Aug 1988. The earliest reference I can find to netiquette dates back nearly 25 years which is here: http://tinyurl.com/2kl7bs (15 Nov 1982) However the way its used there implies that it was well known as a really nice idea. By comparison, RFC822 is also dated 1982, 4 months earlier. In the beginning was email and usenet, then from the depths of the first mighty flame war, lo did a code of conduct arise, and its name hence for evermore was netiquette and in its mighty name did spawn more and bloodier flame wars indeed yea, from then until the end of time. *ahem* Now please can we go back to the principle of netiquette? (Which is of course anyone who breaks it has to buy the next round :-D ) Michael. (tempted to nominate next thursday as international netiquette day) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 11/9/07, Matthew Cashmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hitler A rather crude invocation of Godwin's Law - but does that mean this discussion is now closed? - martin - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 09/11/2007, Matthew Cashmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hitler Ahahahah! This is the funniest invokation of Godwin's Law I have ever seen. From a BBC address too - I wonder if you're boss would be happy with this? -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
You can't deliberately invoke Godwins law: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html So the silliness is set to continue. Vijay. On 09/11/2007, Martin Deutsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/9/07, Matthew Cashmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hitler A rather crude invocation of Godwin's Law - but does that mean this discussion is now closed? - martin - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 09/11/2007, vijay chopra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can't deliberately invoke Godwins law: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html So the silliness is set to continue. Please vijay, RFC 1149 and 2549 clearly state that referenced hyperlinks included within the message body should be indented by no less than two U+0020 (SPACE) characters. http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1149.html http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2549.html Please make sure you follow these rudimentary netiquette guidelines in future. -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Mornington Crescent! (Oh, sorry, wrong game) On 09/11/2007, Matthew Cashmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Churchill -- Peter Bowyer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Sorry no you can't do a cross lateral insertion in the backstage version of the game. Please refer to the rule wiki. Euston. m On 9/11/07 11:37, Peter Bowyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mornington Crescent! (Oh, sorry, wrong game) On 09/11/2007, Matthew Cashmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Churchill ___ Matthew Cashmore Development Producer BBC Future Media Technology, Research and Innovation BC5C3, Broadcast Centre, Media Village, W12 7TP T:020 8008 3959(02 83959) M:07711 913241(072 83959) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
vijay chopra wrote: You can't deliberately invoke Godwins law: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html I think you'll find that he can, since he did, although I accept that the chances of a successful Godwinizing are low. (Plus, if anyone gets to pull rank on this list, it'll be Matthew or Ian -- that they'll do it with good humour is a bonus.) Personally, I was waiting to see whether anyone's irony fuse was going to blow, since arguing in public about how good your manners are is a fairly robust demonstration of how good they aren't. -- Frank Wales [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On Nov 9, 2007 12:02 PM, Richard Lockwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 9, 2007 11:07 AM, Noah Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 09/11/2007, vijay chopra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can't deliberately invoke Godwins law: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html So the silliness is set to continue. Please vijay, RFC 1149 and 2549 clearly state that referenced hyperlinks included within the message body should be indented by no less than two U+0020 (SPACE) characters. I think you'll find that's two fewer. ;-) Cheers, R. Whoops - fewer than two. :-) R. -- SilverDisc Ltd is registered in England no. 2798073 Registered address: 4 Swallow Court, Kettering, Northamptonshire, NN15 6XX
Re: Etiquette and TCP (was Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails)
On Friday 09 November 2007 01:34, Christopher Woods wrote: Does anybody have a new mashup to show off? I wrote this in my spare time for use at home: * http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/KamaeliaGrey - it's a greylisting SMTP proxy for eliminating spam. It uses Kamaelia which is something I developed at work. My home email tends to have the ratio of 4% spam, 96% non-spam. (before adding it my email was 96% spam, 4% spam) I've been running it for handling my email at home for the past couple of months, and it's been pretty solid that entire time filtering around 77,000 messages in that time. Given 96% of those were spam, that means I've not had to do anything with ~74000 messages. Assuming 1 second to categorise each, that's a saving of ~21 hours. Unlike a spambayes approach the cpu usage is next to nothing. It took less than 21 hours to write (probably more like 10 hours or so all told spread over a the weekend a few evenings) though so there's a net benefit. You can consider it a mashup if you like because Kamaelia components have outboxes and inboxes which are mashed together. If you think of outboxes like RSS feeds (or pull from atom pubsub) and inboxes as being similar to push in AtomPub, then the differences are conceptually minimal. You then join the dots together, much like in a mashup. Regards, Michael - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On Nov 9, 2007 11:07 AM, Noah Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 09/11/2007, vijay chopra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can't deliberately invoke Godwins law: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html So the silliness is set to continue. Please vijay, RFC 1149 and 2549 clearly state that referenced hyperlinks included within the message body should be indented by no less than two U+0020 (SPACE) characters. I think you'll find that's two fewer. ;-) Cheers, R.
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 09/11/2007, Noah Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1149.html http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2549.html Hehe, RFC1149 never fails to make me laugh, I've never seen RFC2549 before though: Avian carriers normally bypass bridges and tunnels but will seek out worm hole tunnels. When carrying web traffic, the carriers may digest the spiders, leaving behind a more compact representation. The carriers may be confused by mirrors. Round-robin queueing is not recommended. Robins make for well-tuned networks but do not support the necessary auto-homing feature. Classic. Vijay.
RE: Etiquette and TCP (was Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails)
Oooo, now that's an interesting one, I'll hav to give that a try (I get tons of the crap and although I have on-server mail filtering I get them all delivered to my PC anyway to avoid not receiving false positives). Also evaluating various on-PC mail filters for my Mum (who's your typical learn-by-rote PC user, so it has to be easy to use!) Cheers for the point-out mate, I'll have to check that out this weekend! :) (PS - anyone else going to SBES @ the NEC on the 14th or 15th?) -Original Message- From: Michael Sparks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 09 November 2007 12:30 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: Etiquette and TCP (was Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails) On Friday 09 November 2007 01:34, Christopher Woods wrote: Does anybody have a new mashup to show off? I wrote this in my spare time for use at home: * http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/KamaeliaGrey - it's a greylisting SMTP proxy for eliminating spam. It uses Kamaelia which is something I developed at work. My home email tends to have the ratio of 4% spam, 96% non-spam. (before adding it my email was 96% spam, 4% spam) I've been running it for handling my email at home for the past couple of months, and it's been pretty solid that entire time filtering around 77,000 messages in that time. Given 96% of those were spam, that means I've not had to do anything with ~74000 messages. Assuming 1 second to categorise each, that's a saving of ~21 hours. Unlike a spambayes approach the cpu usage is next to nothing. It took less than 21 hours to write (probably more like 10 hours or so all told spread over a the weekend a few evenings) though so there's a net benefit. You can consider it a mashup if you like because Kamaelia components have outboxes and inboxes which are mashed together. If you think of outboxes like RSS feeds (or pull from atom pubsub) and inboxes as being similar to push in AtomPub, then the differences are conceptually minimal. You then join the dots together, much like in a mashup. Regards, Michael - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Andrew Bowden wrote: Sure my employer would love me channeling all my emails through Gmail just so you don't have to sort your quoting out properly ;) Not that Outlook does much better. Outlook-Quotefix* is your friend, if the BBC desktop IT bods will let you install it (they were very rule-bound indeed when I was there, but that may in part have been due to the absurd fragility of Win95/98). * Free from http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Sure my employer would love me channeling all my emails through Gmail just so you don't have to sort your quoting out properly ;) Not that Outlook does much better. Outlook-Quotefix* is your friend, if the BBC desktop IT bods will let you install it (they were very rule-bound indeed when I was there, but that may in part have been due to the absurd fragility of Win95/98). The BBC rules on installing software on your PC remain very strict. IT people generally don't want their machines broken after all :) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth On 08/11/2007, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not sure why *I* should change my email system just to suit someone with a legacy system either. It's not a rule of the list to do what you are asking, so I feel inclined to decline your suggestion. It's called good nettiquete to consider others when posting to mailing lists. How you do that is entirely up to you and your email provider. In fact it is not. RFC 1855 says You may shorten the message and quote only relevant parts, but be sure you give proper attribution. http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html Please stop making up your own rules and then calling them netiquette. Brian, I have been on online communities for well over 11 years. And I know fully well that netiquette is not a rule or a set of rules. It is generally about being polite and considerate of others. Being polite and considerate anywhere and any time is always a good thing IMHO.
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 08/11/2007, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth On 08/11/2007, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth On 07/11/2007, Noah Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought we were talking about having short codes which could be used by something like go.bbc.co.uk/shortcode where new codes would be added everytime a new news story (or sport or whatever) came up. Yes - you can do this with a single regular expression. Oh, and your quoting of entire emails takes up a LOT of space and make's it harder to read. Or you can use Gmail and it sorts it all for you. Sure my employer would love me channeling all my emails through Gmail just so you don't have to sort your quoting out properly ;) I'm not sure why *I* should change my email system just to suit someone with a legacy system either. It's not a rule of the list to do what you are asking, so I feel inclined to decline your suggestion. It's called good nettiquete to consider others when posting to mailing lists. How you do that is entirely up to you and your email provider. In fact it is not. RFC 1855 says You *may* shorten the message and quote only relevant parts, but be sure you give proper attribution. http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html Please stop making up your own rules and then calling them netiquette. Thank you kindly. -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
RE: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth On 08/11/2007, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth On 07/11/2007, Noah Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought we were talking about having short codes which could be used by something like go.bbc.co.uk/shortcode where new codes would be added everytime a new news story (or sport or whatever) came up. Yes - you can do this with a single regular expression. Oh, and your quoting of entire emails takes up a LOT of space and make's it harder to read. Or you can use Gmail and it sorts it all for you. Sure my employer would love me channeling all my emails through Gmail just so you don't have to sort your quoting out properly ;) I'm not sure why *I* should change my email system just to suit someone with a legacy system either. It's not a rule of the list to do what you are asking, so I feel inclined to decline your suggestion. It's called good nettiquete to consider others when posting to mailing lists. How you do that is entirely up to you and your email provider.
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Andrew Bowden wrote: Brian, I have been on online communities for well over 11 years. And I know fully well that netiquette is not a rule or a set of rules. It is generally about being polite and considerate of others. Being polite and considerate anywhere and any time is always a good thing IMHO. I fear you're on to a loser here. Brian appears to be, to be blunt, a dick. I plonked him shortly after this discussion started. *deep sigh* S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth On 07/11/2007, Noah Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought we were talking about having short codes which could be used by something like go.bbc.co.uk/shortcode where new codes would be added everytime a new news story (or sport or whatever) came up. Yes - you can do this with a single regular expression. Oh, and your quoting of entire emails takes up a LOT of space and make's it harder to read. Or you can use Gmail and it sorts it all for you. Sure my employer would love me channeling all my emails through Gmail just so you don't have to sort your quoting out properly ;)
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 08/11/2007, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth On 07/11/2007, Noah Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought we were talking about having short codes which could be used by something like go.bbc.co.uk/shortcode where new codes would be added everytime a new news story (or sport or whatever) came up. Yes - you can do this with a single regular expression. Oh, and your quoting of entire emails takes up a LOT of space and make's it harder to read. Or you can use Gmail and it sorts it all for you. Sure my employer would love me channeling all my emails through Gmail just so you don't have to sort your quoting out properly ;) I'm not sure why *I* should change my email system just to suit someone with a legacy system either. It's not a rule of the list to do what you are asking, so I feel inclined to decline your suggestion. -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 08/11/2007, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In fact it is not. RFC 1855 says You *may* shorten the message and quote only relevant parts, but be sure you give proper attribution. http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html Please stop making up your own rules and then calling them netiquette. Thank you kindly. From the first paragraph of your own link: This memo does not specify an Internet standard of any kind So why should anyone follow someone else's arbitraty rules instead of their own? Just because it has an official sounding name? I'll stick with my own, totally random definition of netiquette thanks, it's no better nor any worse than any one else's. Vijay.
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Steff Davies wrote: [something intemperate] Sorry - that was intended to be a private mail. I am hoist by own petard of email-pedantry ;-) S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 08/11/2007, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That makes you a noobie in my book! There is nothing polite about making up your own rules and then claiming that they are netiquette. But by following (someone else's) just as random rules makes you teh 1337 netequette god !!!111one1one!! eh? Personally I perfer Andrew's netquette rules over yours. Vijay.
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 08/11/2007, vijay chopra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 08/11/2007, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In fact it is not. RFC 1855 says You *may* shorten the message and quote only relevant parts, but be sure you give proper attribution. http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html Please stop making up your own rules and then calling them netiquette. Thank you kindly. From the first paragraph of your own link: This memo does not specify an Internet standard of any kind So why should anyone follow someone else's arbitraty rules instead of their own? Just because it has an official sounding name? I'll stick with my own, totally random definition of netiquette thanks, it's no better nor any worse than any one else's. Vijay. That's more netanarchy than netiquette, surely? But yes, you are right, the document is not a standard, just a recommendation. But it is the origination of netiquette - the document is dated October 1995, and is part of the same RFC that define almost everything else on the Internet - this email comes to you via RFC822, for example. Perhaps it just a physiological deflection from someone at an organization in a state of crisis? It seems poor form for list for developers to have a Man From Auntie trying to impose their own personal rules. But I don't mean to be rude or come across as excessively intemperate, but I can't be object to an arbitrary extension of the lists' rules. Especially as we have been over this several times already. -- Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Etiquette and TCP (was Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails)
Brian Butterworth wrote: Yes, I am sure you do. That's your opinion. I'm sure I probably don't agree with it as I'm sure that I regard etiquette as something for Mrs Beeton and the 1950s. Uh huh. And yet you hold an attachment to a 12 year old RFC codifying behaviour in a time of 9600b modems? Also, I don't hold good manners as being anything other than a particular social affectation. But that's just my opinion. Let me put this in terms you *may* understand... Good manners and polite behaviour (etiquette) are the CRC of effective communication. In fact I think you'll find they are the difference between an unreliable UDP storm and a reliable TCP stream. I suggest you seriously think about that point. Of course you can critique it but I think there's something in it. I've been writing about netiquette since the early 1990s, and the RFC is the codified version of it. It's a published and widely distributed set of rules. It's a shame you have yet to grasp the difference between knowledge and enlightenment. Whilst it seems that no-one actually agrees with it in it's entirely, it is at least a published and relevant definition. So is the Koran. So? The usual retort to this kind of argument is to provide another reference link that trumps my definition... if no-one has one, can we let this discussion rest? There are times when being accused of being a geek is a compliment. This isn't one of them. David - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On Thursday 08 November 2007 13:09, Brian Butterworth wrote: But it is the origination of netiquette - the document is dated October 1995, No, it's not. Nettiquette's been around a lot longer than 95. The first place I came across the concept was via my brother in '91 and that was due to seeing a copy of Emily Postnews's guide. The earliest copy google groups (nee deja news) has of this as far as I can tell is this: * http://tinyurl.com/2w8654 Which is 19 Aug 1988. The earliest reference I can find to netiquette dates back nearly 25 years which is here: http://tinyurl.com/2kl7bs (15 Nov 1982) However the way its used there implies that it was well known as a really nice idea. By comparison, RFC822 is also dated 1982, 4 months earlier. In the beginning was email and usenet, then from the depths of the first mighty flame war, lo did a code of conduct arise, and its name hence for evermore was netiquette and in its mighty name did spawn more and bloodier flame wars indeed yea, from then until the end of time. *ahem* Now please can we go back to the principle of netiquette? (Which is of course anyone who breaks it has to buy the next round :-D ) Michael. (tempted to nominate next thursday as international netiquette day) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: Etiquette and TCP (was Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manners Argh! So much academic discussion about what is/isnt manners. Let's just consider the facts: * Quoting whole emails is unnecessary for providing context * Quoting whole emails provides a lot of noise when reading the email * This noise can be visually/mentally distracting * This noise might impair usability on small screen devices * This noise might harm accessibility for users with assitive devices. * There are MANY modern email clients that do not support filtering of this noise These are the facts, I assume they are not up for debate. What follows is a judgment call, I guess. I you prepared to continue quoting entire emails given the caveats listed above? Do you consider it bad manners to given all of this points to continue? I cannot tell you what the correct manners are - it's totally subjective - but I can only suggest that I find it rude an inconsiderate. You may disagree - but I think that says a lot, in and of it's self. -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: Etiquette and TCP (was Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails)
On 08/11/2007, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 08/11/2007, David Greaves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brian Butterworth wrote: Yes, I am sure you do. That's your opinion. I'm sure I probably don't agree with it as I'm sure that I regard etiquette as something for Mrs Beeton and the 1950s. Uh huh. And yet you hold an attachment to a 12 year old RFC codifying behaviour in a time of 9600b modems? I can't think of a better definition of netiquette. The rest is quite literally semanics. No it's not. Also, I don't hold good manners as being anything other than a particular social affectation. But that's just my opinion. Let me put this in terms you *may* understand... Good manners and polite behaviour (etiquette) are the CRC of effective communication. Good manners are something found in PG Wodehouse - I am sure he would have had a good line about a cyclic redundnacy check! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manners I see no mention of Woodhouse, obviously because I can present a link showing this, it must be true. In fact I think you'll find they are the difference between an unreliable UDP storm and a reliable TCP stream. That's a bit anthropomprphic! Your point is? I suggest you seriously think about that point. Of course you can critique it but I think there's something in it. What ON EARTH does this have to do with editing out other people comments from an email? I've been writing about netiquette since the early 1990s, and the RFC is the codified version of it. It's a published and widely distributed set of rules. It's a shame you have yet to grasp the difference between knowledge and enlightenment. Right, so it's enlightened to remove text that my mail programme doesn't even show me because other people use Outlook and find scrolling down troublesome? Wow. Yes. Whilst it seems that no-one actually agrees with it in it's entirely, it is at least a published and relevant definition. So is the Koran. So? I can't recall seeing the definition of 'netiquette' in that old book. Perhaps I missed it? That was obviously not his point. The usual retort to this kind of argument is to provide another reference link that trumps my definition... if no-one has one, can we let this discussion rest? There are times when being accused of being a geek is a compliment. This isn't one of them. I see no link! Because links are the one true source of knowledge; right? Besides, I've given you one now. David - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv This has been a demonstration of bad manners and appalling netiquette brought to you by the How To Waste Your Time in teh internts company Vijay.
Re: Etiquette and TCP (was Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails)
On 08/11/2007, David Greaves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brian Butterworth wrote: Yes, I am sure you do. That's your opinion. I'm sure I probably don't agree with it as I'm sure that I regard etiquette as something for Mrs Beeton and the 1950s. Uh huh. And yet you hold an attachment to a 12 year old RFC codifying behaviour in a time of 9600b modems? I can't think of a better definition of netiquette. The rest is quite literally semanics. Also, I don't hold good manners as being anything other than a particular social affectation. But that's just my opinion. Let me put this in terms you *may* understand... Good manners and polite behaviour (etiquette) are the CRC of effective communication. Good manners are something found in PG Wodehouse - I am sure he would have had a good line about a cyclic redundnacy check! In fact I think you'll find they are the difference between an unreliable UDP storm and a reliable TCP stream. That's a bit anthropomprphic! I suggest you seriously think about that point. Of course you can critique it but I think there's something in it. What ON EARTH does this have to do with editing out other people comments from an email? I've been writing about netiquette since the early 1990s, and the RFC is the codified version of it. It's a published and widely distributed set of rules. It's a shame you have yet to grasp the difference between knowledge and enlightenment. Right, so it's enlightened to remove text that my mail programme doesn't even show me because other people use Outlook and find scrolling down troublesome? Wow. Whilst it seems that no-one actually agrees with it in it's entirely, it is at least a published and relevant definition. So is the Koran. So? I can't recall seeing the definition of 'netiquette' in that old book. Perhaps I missed it? The usual retort to this kind of argument is to provide another reference link that trumps my definition... if no-one has one, can we let this discussion rest? There are times when being accused of being a geek is a compliment. This isn't one of them. I see no link! David - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: Etiquette and TCP (was Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails)
On 08/11/2007, Noah Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Quoting whole emails is unnecessary for providing context * Quoting whole emails provides a lot of noise when reading the email * This noise can be visually/mentally distracting * This noise might impair usability on small screen devices * This noise might harm accessibility for users with assitive devices. * There are MANY modern email clients that do not support filtering of this noise These are the facts, I assume they are not up for debate. Amen to that. -- www.dobo.urandom.co.uk If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us still has one object. If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now has two ideas. - George Bernard Shaw -- www.dobo.urandom.co.uk If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us still has one object. If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now has two ideas. - George Bernard Shaw - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: Etiquette and TCP (was Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails)
I'm glad to see this list didn't once more descend into the realms of mild silliness while I was away. Does anybody have a new mashup to show off? *gets hounded off to the backstage-dev list* - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
PHP code sample to do the tinyURL bit... ? $link = mysql_connect(MYSQLHOST, MYSQLUSER, MYSQLPASS) or die(Could not connect); mysql_select_db(MYSQLDB) or die(Could not select database); $strURL=http://invalidvaluelocation;; $result2 = mysql_query(SELECT strURL FROM tblRedirects WHERE txtShortCode= \ . @$_GET[code] . \;) or die(Query failed); if (mysql_num_rows($result2)0) while ($line = mysql_fetch_array($result2, MYSQL_ASSOC)) if ($line[strURL]!=) $strURL=$line[strURL]; header (Location: $strURL); ? On 07/11/2007, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 06/11/2007, James Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6 Nov 2007, at 00:07, Andrew Bowden wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of James Cox 'course, bbc.co.uk has had some kind of redirect magic for a while: http://bbc.co.uk/zanelowe/ First time I've seen a big fat httpd.conf called magic :) and there I was thinking you had some nice routing controller thin-app which had some clever logging, tracking and management of such urls :) 1544804416 entries would be a bit much for a httpd.conf file, I suspect what would be required is a ... database. though i suspect the problem (and usage of tinyurl) is that to get one of those nice urls hooked up, you gotta email someone a request, who needs to get approval from a manager Well lets just say there is a process and it has to be done sensibly else you'd get loads of random redirects. Although I still think bbc.co.uk/breakfast should go to a big portal page for all the BBC's breakfast shows :) -- *James Cox, *Internet Consultant t: 07968 349990 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: http://imaj.es/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Brian, I hope your not using the code below anywhere as it looks wide open to SQL Injection. Adam Quoting Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED]: PHP code sample to do the tinyURL bit... ? $link = mysql_connect(MYSQLHOST, MYSQLUSER, MYSQLPASS) or die(Could not connect); mysql_select_db(MYSQLDB) or die(Could not select database); $strURL=http://invalidvaluelocation;; $result2 = mysql_query(SELECT strURL FROM tblRedirects WHERE txtShortCode= \ . @$_GET[code] . \;) or die(Query failed); if (mysql_num_rows($result2)0) while ($line = mysql_fetch_array($result2, MYSQL_ASSOC)) if ($line[strURL]!=) $strURL=$line[strURL]; header (Location: $strURL); ? On 07/11/2007, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 06/11/2007, James Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6 Nov 2007, at 00:07, Andrew Bowden wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of James Cox 'course, bbc.co.uk has had some kind of redirect magic for a while: http://bbc.co.uk/zanelowe/ First time I've seen a big fat httpd.conf called magic :) and there I was thinking you had some nice routing controller thin-app which had some clever logging, tracking and management of such urls :) 1544804416 entries would be a bit much for a httpd.conf file, I suspect what would be required is a ... database. though i suspect the problem (and usage of tinyurl) is that to get one of those nice urls hooked up, you gotta email someone a request, who needs to get approval from a manager Well lets just say there is a process and it has to be done sensibly else you'd get loads of random redirects. Although I still think bbc.co.uk/breakfast should go to a big portal page for all the BBC's breakfast shows :) -- *James Cox, *Internet Consultant t: 07968 349990 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: http://imaj.es/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 07/11/2007, Jonathan Tweed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:15:41 +, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looks like an unmanageable mess to me. I must prefer a database table, much easier to manage, especially if the short code is translated into a integer. Or if that's the case you could make the algorithm two way and then you don't need a database table. But there's no magic integer id for every page on bbc.co.uk. Or if you want to get to X, you don't want to be starting from here Incidentally the ids in the /programmes urls are generated by a two way algorithm from an integer (or at least the bit that changes is an integer). Cheers Jonathan - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:15:41 +, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looks like an unmanageable mess to me. I must prefer a database table, much easier to manage, especially if the short code is translated into a integer. Or if that's the case you could make the algorithm two way and then you don't need a database table. But there's no magic integer id for every page on bbc.co.uk. Incidentally the ids in the /programmes urls are generated by a two way algorithm from an integer (or at least the bit that changes is an integer). Cheers Jonathan - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 07/11/2007, Noah Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That wouldn't be very dynamic, would it? You would have to restart the servers everytime you wanted to create a new one! Why would you ever want dynamic regex based rewrites? I thought we were talking about having short codes which could be used by something like go.bbc.co.uk/shortcode where new codes would be added everytime a new news story (or sport or whatever) came up. -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 07/11/2007, Peter Bowyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 07/11/2007, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 07/11/2007, Noah Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Depending on volumes and volatility of data, it may be 'insane' to have a database connection, query and teardown for every redirect, too. What works on the bench doesn't always work in the field... I would recommend against any method that involved network I/O for Apache. If you have large volumes of redirects that cannot be satisfied with a few simple regular expressions and mod_rewrite the obvious way forward is batch generated (from the DB) apache config files placed in a directory and sourced by the main apache.conf. That wouldn't be very dynamic, would it? You would have to restart the servers everytime you wanted to create a new one! RewriteMap is your friend. Looks like an unmanageable mess to me. I must prefer a database table, much easier to manage, especially if the short code is translated into a integer. -- Peter Bowyer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 07/11/2007, Adam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brian, I hope your not using the code below anywhere as it looks wide open to SQL Injection. Of course not. It was simply a response to the rather dumb suggestion of doing it via httpd.conf Adam Quoting Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED]: PHP code sample to do the tinyURL bit... ? $link = mysql_connect(MYSQLHOST, MYSQLUSER, MYSQLPASS) or die(Could not connect); mysql_select_db(MYSQLDB) or die(Could not select database); $strURL=http://invalidvaluelocation;; $result2 = mysql_query(SELECT strURL FROM tblRedirects WHERE txtShortCode= \ . @$_GET[code] . \;) or die(Query failed); if (mysql_num_rows($result2)0) while ($line = mysql_fetch_array($result2, MYSQL_ASSOC)) if ($line[strURL]!=) $strURL=$line[strURL]; header (Location: $strURL); ? On 07/11/2007, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 06/11/2007, James Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6 Nov 2007, at 00:07, Andrew Bowden wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of James Cox 'course, bbc.co.uk has had some kind of redirect magic for a while: http://bbc.co.uk/zanelowe/ First time I've seen a big fat httpd.conf called magic :) and there I was thinking you had some nice routing controller thin-app which had some clever logging, tracking and management of such urls :) 1544804416 entries would be a bit much for a httpd.conf file, I suspect what would be required is a ... database. though i suspect the problem (and usage of tinyurl) is that to get one of those nice urls hooked up, you gotta email someone a request, who needs to get approval from a manager Well lets just say there is a process and it has to be done sensibly else you'd get loads of random redirects. Although I still think bbc.co.uk/breakfast should go to a big portal page for all the BBC's breakfast shows :) -- *James Cox, *Internet Consultant t: 07968 349990 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: http://imaj.es/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Brian Butterworth wrote: Oh, and your quoting of entire emails takes up a LOT of space and make's it harder to read. Or you can use Gmail and it sorts it all for you. Not on the evidence of that post, it doesn't. I've just had to redo your quoting manually to make this make sense. S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:34:49 +, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If they are to be reproduced in newspapers and the like, then they codes really need to be case insensitive and treat zero/O and one/I as the same character. This would allow a total of 34 characters (alphanumerics plus numbers minus two) for each character in the short code. Don't forget to also drop at least u, otherwise you might end up with offensive short codes. You may have noticed that the programme ids don't have any vowels in them. This is deliberate ;-) Cheers Jonathan - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 07/11/2007, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 07/11/2007, Noah Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Depending on volumes and volatility of data, it may be 'insane' to have a database connection, query and teardown for every redirect, too. What works on the bench doesn't always work in the field... I would recommend against any method that involved network I/O for Apache. If you have large volumes of redirects that cannot be satisfied with a few simple regular expressions and mod_rewrite the obvious way forward is batch generated (from the DB) apache config files placed in a directory and sourced by the main apache.conf. That wouldn't be very dynamic, would it? You would have to restart the servers everytime you wanted to create a new one! RewriteMap is your friend. -- Peter Bowyer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Depending on volumes and volatility of data, it may be 'insane' to have a database connection, query and teardown for every redirect, too. What works on the bench doesn't always work in the field... I would recommend against any method that involved network I/O for Apache. If you have large volumes of redirects that cannot be satisfied with a few simple regular expressions and mod_rewrite the obvious way forward is batch generated (from the DB) apache config files placed in a directory and sourced by the main apache.conf. -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 07/11/2007, Peter Bowyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 07/11/2007, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 07 November 2007 11:13 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails On 07/11/2007, Adam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brian, I hope your not using the code below anywhere as it looks wide open to SQL Injection. Of course not. It was simply a response to the rather dumb suggestion of doing it via httpd.conf Don't think anyone made that suggestion at all. Cos to do huge shortcode systems, it would be insane. Depending on volumes and volatility of data, it may be 'insane' to have a database connection, query and teardown for every redirect, too. What works on the bench doesn't always work in the field... I never comment about what works 'on the bench' Peter -- Peter Bowyer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 07/11/2007, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 07 November 2007 11:13 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails On 07/11/2007, Adam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brian, I hope your not using the code below anywhere as it looks wide open to SQL Injection. Of course not. It was simply a response to the rather dumb suggestion of doing it via httpd.conf Don't think anyone made that suggestion at all. Cos to do huge shortcode systems, it would be insane. Depending on volumes and volatility of data, it may be 'insane' to have a database connection, query and teardown for every redirect, too. What works on the bench doesn't always work in the field... Peter -- Peter Bowyer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Or you can use Gmail and it sorts it all for you. Two points: 1) I may be using a phone, small screen or assistive device on which your emails can take pages and pages of scrolling to get to the real content - even then it could be confusing enough to miss. 2) I DO use Gmail (check the message headers) and it still looks like garbage. -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 07/11/2007, Noah Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought we were talking about having short codes which could be used by something like go.bbc.co.uk/shortcode where new codes would be added everytime a new news story (or sport or whatever) came up. Yes - you can do this with a single regular expression. Oh, and your quoting of entire emails takes up a LOT of space and make's it harder to read. Or you can use Gmail and it sorts it all for you. -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
I thought we were talking about having short codes which could be used by something like go.bbc.co.uk/shortcode where new codes would be added everytime a new news story (or sport or whatever) came up. Yes - you can do this with a single regular expression. Oh, and your quoting of entire emails takes up a LOT of space and make's it harder to read. -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 07/11/2007, Noah Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Depending on volumes and volatility of data, it may be 'insane' to have a database connection, query and teardown for every redirect, too. What works on the bench doesn't always work in the field... I would recommend against any method that involved network I/O for Apache. If you have large volumes of redirects that cannot be satisfied with a few simple regular expressions and mod_rewrite the obvious way forward is batch generated (from the DB) apache config files placed in a directory and sourced by the main apache.conf. That wouldn't be very dynamic, would it? You would have to restart the servers everytime you wanted to create a new one! -- Noah Slater http://www.bytesexual.org/ Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. - R. Stallman - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Jonathan Tweed wrote: Don't forget to also drop at least u, otherwise you might end up with offensive short codes. You may have noticed that the programme ids don't have any vowels in them. This is deliberate ;-) Sounds like an interesting little algorithmic challenge - what shortcode generation algorithm eliminates accidental real words while compromising optimally between simplicity and efficiency? S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 07/11/2007, Steff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brian Butterworth wrote: Oh, and your quoting of entire emails takes up a LOT of space and make's it harder to read. Or you can use Gmail and it sorts it all for you. Not on the evidence of that post, it doesn't. I've just had to redo your quoting manually to make this make sense. Work fine for me. It's a poor workman who blames his tools? S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Steve Jolly wrote: Jonathan Tweed wrote: Don't forget to also drop at least u, otherwise you might end up with offensive short codes. You may have noticed that the programme ids don't have any vowels in them. This is deliberate ;-) Sounds like an interesting little algorithmic challenge - what shortcode generation algorithm eliminates accidental real words while compromising optimally between simplicity and efficiency? It's been discussed in the Mac blogosphere recently: http://www.rogueamoeba.com/utm/posts/Random/RASN2-Swears-2007-10-16-15-00.html Essentially, generate as normal, and reject on matches from a dictionary. adam - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 08/11/2007, Adam Lindsay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Jolly wrote: Jonathan Tweed wrote: Don't forget to also drop at least u, otherwise you might end up with offensive short codes. You may have noticed that the programme ids don't have any vowels in them. This is deliberate ;-) Sounds like an interesting little algorithmic challenge - what shortcode generation algorithm eliminates accidental real words while compromising optimally between simplicity and efficiency? It's been discussed in the Mac blogosphere recently: http://www.rogueamoeba.com/utm/posts/Random/RASN2-Swears-2007-10-16-15-00.html Ah, the routine that rejects the great Yorkshire town of scunthorope! I guess if you are going to use them on the radio too, you need to avoid confusions like two u in a row too. Essentially, generate as normal, and reject on matches from a dictionary. adam - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
RE: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of James Cox 'course, bbc.co.uk has had some kind of redirect magic for a while: http://bbc.co.uk/zanelowe/ First time I've seen a big fat httpd.conf called magic :) though i suspect the problem (and usage of tinyurl) is that to get one of those nice urls hooked up, you gotta email someone a request, who needs to get approval from a manager Well lets just say there is a process and it has to be done sensibly else you'd get loads of random redirects. Although I still think bbc.co.uk/breakfast should go to a big portal page for all the BBC's breakfast shows :) winmail.dat
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 06/11/2007, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However that's not always the case. Turnham Green is actually a hell of a lot closer to Chiswick Park tube station, than Turnham Green tube station. ... and if you get a 27 bus to Turnham Green, it stops at the real Turnham Green, not the tube station - a nightmare for integrated public transport planning :-) -- Peter Bowyer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Sure, and where there is ambiguity there should be a disambiguity page to sort that out. J On 06/11/2007, Andrew Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Jason Cartwright The TFL journey planner has such potential, but from what I can see it's not terribly well built. Why does it have to ask me what type of data I'm inputting? Doesn't it know that SW1W 9TQ is a postcode, White City is a station, and Buckingham Palace is a place of interest? Well White City is a station. It's also a locale and a building (and a demolished stadium ;). (BBC White City, aka the evil grey fortress of doom ;) Now they all happen to be in the same area so that's not a huge problem, although there's still a five minute walk between the tube platform and the building (as I know you know Jason ;). However that's not always the case. Turnham Green is actually a hell of a lot closer to Chiswick Park tube station, than Turnham Green tube station. Then you've the case of the large number of Shepherds Bushs... Anyway that's just a silly point ;) IIRC on TfL's journey planner (the software of which is used in various parts of the country), stations are on the place of interest list.
RE: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Jason Cartwright The TFL journey planner has such potential, but from what I can see it's not terribly well built. Why does it have to ask me what type of data I'm inputting? Doesn't it know that SW1W 9TQ is a postcode, White City is a station, and Buckingham Palace is a place of interest? Well White City is a station. It's also a locale and a building (and a demolished stadium ;). (BBC White City, aka the evil grey fortress of doom ;) Now they all happen to be in the same area so that's not a huge problem, although there's still a five minute walk between the tube platform and the building (as I know you know Jason ;). However that's not always the case. Turnham Green is actually a hell of a lot closer to Chiswick Park tube station, than Turnham Green tube station. Then you've the case of the large number of Shepherds Bushs... Anyway that's just a silly point ;) IIRC on TfL's journey planner (the software of which is used in various parts of the country), stations are on the place of interest list. winmail.dat
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Matthew Somerville wrote: David Greaves wrote: You want an 8am train from Cardiff to Birmingham? http://www.traintimes.org.uk/8:00/cardiff/birmingham The requested URL /8:00/cardiff/birmingham was not found on this server. Hmm, works fine here. ;-) Ho Ho!! Been using the site for years BTW :) sigh people are so complicated... Well, all you had to do was ask. ;) OK : Could you please simplify people - all of them. Make them understand what I wanted them to understand when I first thought of the idea. Cheers. Just in case...I meant that if you (or I) think of an idea or a hierarchy in a nice logical way like so: The reason it's as it is by default, by the way, is because URLs are hierarchical, and it's pretty pointless to supply a time without a from or a to (whereas cutting any bit off a default URL returns what you'd expect). then some silly bugger like me will think about it in an entirely different way: (see above URL) The front page gives the manual, such as it is. I think it is an excellent solution - however it's a solution to a different problem. I think your URL is actually a user interface; ie designed to be a primary data entry mechanism for a search or similar (which is cool). Most URLs are not really designed for humans to use. They are essentially simply uncompressed tinyURLs. Many URLs are actually informative but a quick look at the 33 pages I have open: * line-noise 18 * grokable 15 I don't think I could, with any certainty, have typed the displayed URL into *any* of them to get what I was seeing. They're not data entry fields. Another site I've done, http://landmarktrust.dracos.co.uk/ uses a key=value URL structure, so that it doesn't matter in what order the variables are presented. Yep, IIRC I used that for BTexact's site a few years back. I notice the URLs in http://www.theyworkforyou.com/ are not so easy to comprehend (not a criticism - just an example of a more complex problem that doesn't succumb). TinyURL is clever - it's small and easy to *transcribe*. Well, unless you can get 1 and l, or O and 0 confused. :) Oh, I'm sure it can be improved. (Yes, it astonishes me that things like MS product keys (not seen one for a couple of years but...) still use 0s and Os - and the only difference in the printed version is the roundedness of the font) Anyhow... URLs are clearly primarily designed as a machine readable bookmark - either to a process point (sessions) or an information heirarchy/database location (wikis, shops, blogs, forums, datastores) They are, in the main, no longer expected to be typed. (What % of urls that you visit do you actually type - shortcuts *not* included!) For the rare occasion we need to type (transcribe) then I'd suggest that tinyURLs are a better UI than informative URLs. They have less chance of transcription error (both because they're shorter and because the user doesn't think they know how to spell). Interesting discussion :) David - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 08:45 +, Peter Bowyer wrote: However that's not always the case. Turnham Green is actually a hell of a lot closer to Chiswick Park tube station, than Turnham Green tube station. ... and if you get a 27 bus to Turnham Green, it stops at the real Turnham Green, not the tube station - a nightmare for integrated public transport planning :-) if you don't get 'em on public transport you'll never turn 'em green;) (I'll get me coat) - R - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
David Greaves wrote: then some silly bugger like me will think about it in an entirely different way: (see above URL) Okay, but more and more people can only learn about hierarchical-ness - e.g. the mouse gesture in Opera to go up a level and so on (just thought, I wonder if that works on Opera on a Wii...? :) ). But as you say, people don't generally type URLs, and having the hierarchy as a /result/ of tinyurl or whatever is still helpful. I'd be most annoyed if a tinyurl displayed the page under that URL I've just entered without changing to the actual location. I notice the URLs in http://www.theyworkforyou.com/ are not so easy to comprehend (not a criticism - just an example of a more complex problem that doesn't succumb). Only because we haven't been able to get around to it yet, it could be a lot better, certainly at a 1st/2nd depth level - I believe there's a ticket for it ;) For the rare occasion we need to type (transcribe) then I'd suggest that tinyURLs are a better UI than informative URLs. They have less chance of transcription error (both because they're shorter and because the user doesn't think they know how to spell). Yep. However, as you said, how many URLs do you type? Certainly, links are clickable in my email client, so there was no real need for tiny-urls in that email from the BBC that started this discussion. The two arguments here are that some clients (Hotmail in safe mode, AOL if you haven't sent the email properly) don't make links clickable, so the user has to copy/paste/type them - tiny-urls doesn't help here, so we can assume the links will be clickable; and that URLs that are too long break across lines, so we need to make them shorter - and I think you could probably make an informative *and* shorter URL, perhaps adjusting between the two depending on your personal preference. If the URLs were stupidly long, I believe that's more likely to be a problem with that URL structure first. Tiny-urls for transcribing - this presumably means over a phone or similar, in which case I'd say - I'll just send you an email :-) A downside of transcribing tiny-urls is if you do get them wrong, there's probably not much the tiny-url provider can do to help; having a bit of information (and a good web developer) means a 404 page can hopefully be of use. But sadly lots of people aren't good web developers (I'm sure there are lots of places where I too fail on that before anyone goes hunting for any!) But I do like the fact that http://www.dracos.co.uk/paly/live-trains-ma/ works fine :) ATB, Matthew | http://www.dracos.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
I've read all this with interest and it brings up some interesting points. The original subjects is with regard to emails, where there is a limit of 78 characters for some (older) systems. The other use for short URLs is where they have to be physically typed in because they are on a hard copy. It would make sense to me for the BBC to have a system of short code URLs for the whole site. I suspect that I would personally make them: go.bbc.co.uk/shortcode If they are to be reproduced in newspapers and the like, then they codes really need to be case insensitive and treat zero/O and one/I as the same character. This would allow a total of 34 characters (alphanumerics plus numbers minus two) for each character in the short code. This would give 34^5=45,435,424 possibilities for a five character code or 34^6=1,544,804,416 possibilities for six. I imagine that a six-character code would last for a few years I would also, personally, generate the codes randomly. These codes could then be displayed somewhere near the top of each page. Another use, which I don't think anyone has mentioned, for short codes is on mobile phones and other devices with poor input devices. On 06/11/2007, Matthew Somerville [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Greaves wrote: then some silly bugger like me will think about it in an entirely different way: (see above URL) Okay, but more and more people can only learn about hierarchical-ness - e.g. the mouse gesture in Opera to go up a level and so on (just thought, I wonder if that works on Opera on a Wii...? :) ). But as you say, people don't generally type URLs, and having the hierarchy as a /result/ of tinyurl or whatever is still helpful. I'd be most annoyed if a tinyurl displayed the page under that URL I've just entered without changing to the actual location. I notice the URLs in http://www.theyworkforyou.com/ are not so easy to comprehend (not a criticism - just an example of a more complex problem that doesn't succumb). Only because we haven't been able to get around to it yet, it could be a lot better, certainly at a 1st/2nd depth level - I believe there's a ticket for it ;) For the rare occasion we need to type (transcribe) then I'd suggest that tinyURLs are a better UI than informative URLs. They have less chance of transcription error (both because they're shorter and because the user doesn't think they know how to spell). Yep. However, as you said, how many URLs do you type? Certainly, links are clickable in my email client, so there was no real need for tiny-urls in that email from the BBC that started this discussion. The two arguments here are that some clients (Hotmail in safe mode, AOL if you haven't sent the email properly) don't make links clickable, so the user has to copy/paste/type them - tiny-urls doesn't help here, so we can assume the links will be clickable; and that URLs that are too long break across lines, so we need to make them shorter - and I think you could probably make an informative *and* shorter URL, perhaps adjusting between the two depending on your personal preference. If the URLs were stupidly long, I believe that's more likely to be a problem with that URL structure first. Tiny-urls for transcribing - this presumably means over a phone or similar, in which case I'd say - I'll just send you an email :-) A downside of transcribing tiny-urls is if you do get them wrong, there's probably not much the tiny-url provider can do to help; having a bit of information (and a good web developer) means a 404 page can hopefully be of use. But sadly lots of people aren't good web developers (I'm sure there are lots of places where I too fail on that before anyone goes hunting for any!) But I do like the fact that http://www.dracos.co.uk/paly/live-trains-ma/ works fine :) ATB, Matthew | http://www.dracos.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On Tuesday 06 November 2007 13:34, Brian Butterworth wrote: I suspect that I would personally make them: go.bbc.co.uk/shortcode The shortcode could then also be embedded in any advertising as a 2D barcode meaning someone could just snap a photo of something and have the shortcode easily extractable. Which would be quite neat. You could of course do this today using tinyurl.com and then the 2D barcodes could link anywhere, not just the BBC. You can put any URL you like into tinyurl after all and use it as an open 2D barcode lookup system: * cf http://preview.tinyurl.com/2xzaay Which I admit is possibly a little random. Michael - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 11/6/07, Michael Sparks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 06 November 2007 13:34, Brian Butterworth wrote: I suspect that I would personally make them: go.bbc.co.uk/shortcode The shortcode could then also be embedded in any advertising as a 2D barcode meaning someone could just snap a photo of something and have the shortcode easily extractable. Which would be quite neat. You could of course do this today using tinyurl.com and then the 2D barcodes could link anywhere, not just the BBC. I did once spy a large 2D barcode somewhere in the Broadcast Centre - but it was before the days I had Kaywa Reader on my phone to do anything useful with it. I think two issues are being confused a little on this thread, though: - User-friendly URLs these generally exist already on websites with their heads screwed on - either by building a well-designed URL structure (well documented elsewhere), or judicious use of .htaccess redirects (eg. bbc.co.uk/sportscotland) where you want an easy deep link, perhaps to a nasty looking CMS address. - Short URLs to easy linking to stupidly long URLs avoids line breaking in emails (such as the BBC example at the top of the thread), or publishing really really big links as references in newspapers (as the Guardian frequently do.) I don't really think that big organisations like the above ought to have to rely on the likes of tinyurl for this - I'd have a little bit more confidence blindly clicking on, or typing in, such a link if I knew the redirect was being hosted by the people referring me to it. Doing it on their own domain would looks more professional too. - martin - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Brian Butterworth wrote: I've read all this with interest and it brings up some interesting points. The original subjects is with regard to emails, where there is a limit of 78 characters for some (older) systems. True - also if they are visible (and long) they can interfere with readability. I get [use Perl] stories and they look like this: One of the implications of the work on [0]Test::Harness 3.0 is that [1]Test::Harness::Straps will no longer exist as part of Test::Harness. For new applications you are encouraged to use TAP::Harness / TAP::Parser. The awkwardness of Straps was one of the reasons to embark on a rewrite of Test::Harness and the new code should make it far easier to write ad-hoc testing applications. Links: 0. http://search.cpan.org/~andya/Test-Harness-2.99_04/ 1. http://search.cpan.org/~petdance/Test-Harness-2.64/lib/Test/Harness/Straps.pm 2. http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg09192.html Which probably has limited 'mass market' appeal but is suitable for text only emails. The other use for short URLs is where they have to be physically typed in because they are on a hard copy. Exactly - newspapers, TV shows, paper mail. Another use, which I don't think anyone has mentioned, for short codes is on mobile phones and other devices with poor input devices. Good one. David - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Beyond the debate about security in following email links, redirects and then the discussion of poorly designed urls the weirdest thing about the use of tinyurl in the BBC Archive email is that the urls they were substituting weren't that long in the first place: http://tinyurl.com/2fkqes goes to: http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/trial/forgotton_password.shtml and... http://tinyurl.com/29t4o5 goes to: http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/trial/ ...then to compound the confusion the email signs off with the real url: Regards, The BBC archive trial team bbc.co.uk/archive/trial/ sometimes things just don't make sense ~:-\ J. On 5/11/07 17:52, Tom Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Using TinyUrl is a symptom of poorly designed urls... On 05/11/2007, Sean Dillon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adam wrote: Tinyurl is a great service and i can understand why it is used, but i feel that using this type of service in a wider audience is a bad idea. We're having this exact same argument at the moment here, and I would agree that ideally this service should be located under the main publisher's domain. The Guardian uses tinyurl extensively, as do many other publications. We have decided to build our own system instead, as at least this way we are able to track who's clicking the links and where they're coming from as well. Seán - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 6 Nov 2007, at 00:07, Andrew Bowden wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of James Cox 'course, bbc.co.uk has had some kind of redirect magic for a while: http://bbc.co.uk/zanelowe/ First time I've seen a big fat httpd.conf called magic :) and there I was thinking you had some nice routing controller thin- app which had some clever logging, tracking and management of such urls :) though i suspect the problem (and usage of tinyurl) is that to get one of those nice urls hooked up, you gotta email someone a request, who needs to get approval from a manager Well lets just say there is a process and it has to be done sensibly else you'd get loads of random redirects. Although I still think bbc.co.uk/breakfast should go to a big portal page for all the BBC's breakfast shows :) -- James Cox, Internet Consultant t: 07968 349990 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: http://imaj.es/
RE: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
I agree with you - just got the same message and had the same thought. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Adam Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 3:48 PM To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails Hi, I've just received an email from the BBC Archive project and noticed that all the email links are using Tinyurl. Now i would argue that the BBC shouldn't be using this type of service in emails, mainly as it contradicts the advice i give friends regarding following URLs in emails that do not appear associated with the sender (for example only follow links to bbc.co.uk in emails from the beeb) Tinyurl is a great service and i can understand why it is used, but i feel that using this type of service in a wider audience is a bad idea. What does everyone else think. Adam - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Adam wrote: Tinyurl is a great service and i can understand why it is used, but i feel that using this type of service in a wider audience is a bad idea. We're having this exact same argument at the moment here, and I would agree that ideally this service should be located under the main publisher's domain. The Guardian uses tinyurl extensively, as do many other publications. We have decided to build our own system instead, as at least this way we are able to track who's clicking the links and where they're coming from as well. Seán - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 11/5/07, Adam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I've just received an email from the BBC Archive project and noticed that all the email links are using Tinyurl. Now i would argue that the BBC shouldn't be using this type of service in emails, mainly as it contradicts the advice i give friends regarding following URLs in emails that do not appear associated with the sender (for example only follow links to bbc.co.uk in emails from the beeb) Tinyurl is a great service and i can understand why it is used, but i feel that using this type of service in a wider audience is a bad idea. What does everyone else think. Adam - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ Hi, I would have to partially agree with you on that. On the plus side, using a service like TinyURL does make life easier: URL's are shorter and prettier and helps people avoid nasty line break issues that some clients face. On the other hand, you are right - not being able to see the landing URL of a link is dangerous and potentially a security issue. I do believe however that this is mainly due to the fact that TinyURL is an external factor and not under direct control of the BBC itself. Should they actually implement a similar _private_ service , I wouldn't have any problems using it. Is. tiny.bbc.co.uk/2m2kLAp Spiros
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On Nov 5, 2007 8:03 AM, Spiros Denaxas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is. tiny.bbc.co.uk/2m2kLAp Avoiding obfuscation (and sub-domain complexity); www.bbc.co.uk/go/ashley_highfield_nov07_interview P Spiros - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 05/11/2007, Tim Dobson wrote: Tinyurl.com isn't even that good. http://tiny.pl gives 4 digit ids to it's links and is shorter. Personally I prefer this. I once did little bit of research into similar services and found quite a few. If you are interested, here is the total list http://www.goaddr.com/ http://elfurl.com/ http://doiop.com/ http://www.shorl.com/ http://burl.fergcorp.com/ http://lnk.in/ http://lnk.in/index.php http://snipurl.com/ http://tiny.pl http://tinyurl.co.uk=at the time tinyurl.co.uk was separate from tinyurl.com http:// tinyurl.com http://tinyurl.com/ http://notlong.com/ http://makeashorterlink.com/ http://makeashorterlink.com/index.php http://www.lights.com/weblogs/shorterurls.html http://www.shorturl.com/ http://metamark.net/ http://www.freecenter.com/redirect.html http://www.2url.org/ http://link.toolbot.com/ http://enigo.com/shortlink This however was about a a year and 9 months ago, so I expect this list may have significant ommisions and errors in it, and take no responsibility at all for the content at the end of those links. Now back on topic, I agree with both, I think the BBC should give real urls, but have their own, tinyurl system as such. Much as I really don't like them, I think MSN has a similar thing something like : http://www.rubbishMSsite.com?go=DFG43 Of course loads of sites operate these systems, and there are security issues regarding them, for instance, letting public use a private one would mean that phishing scams could have links to http://redirect.ebay.com/34Fg5/ which to many would look real, especially if they ended up at 234.453.432.12:8080 and found an EXACT replica of ebay's site. I think there is some Free Software (as in Freedom for those who don't know me), code lying around that lets you do this, which might be interesting to look at, and useful to use, to adopt to the BBC's needs. Certainly a better choice than what ever Microsoft is offering cheap today. -Tim -- www.dobo.urandom.co.uk If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us still has one object. If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now has two ideas. - George Bernard Shaw
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Using TinyUrl is a symptom of poorly designed urls... On 05/11/2007, Sean Dillon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adam wrote: Tinyurl is a great service and i can understand why it is used, but i feel that using this type of service in a wider audience is a bad idea. We're having this exact same argument at the moment here, and I would agree that ideally this service should be located under the main publisher's domain. The Guardian uses tinyurl extensively, as do many other publications. We have decided to build our own system instead, as at least this way we are able to track who's clicking the links and where they're coming from as well. Seán - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Let's not forget: http://www.GiganticURL.com/ On 11/5/07, Tim Dobson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 05/11/2007, Tim Dobson wrote: Tinyurl.com isn't even that good. http://tiny.pl gives 4 digit ids to it's links and is shorter. Personally I prefer this. I once did little bit of research into similar services and found quite a few. If you are interested, here is the total list http://www.goaddr.com/ http://elfurl.com/ http://doiop.com/ http://www.shorl.com/ http://burl.fergcorp.com/ http://lnk.in/ http://snipurl.com/ http://tiny.pl http://tinyurl.co.uk=at the time tinyurl.co.uk was separate from tinyurl.com http:// tinyurl.com http://notlong.com/ http://makeashorterlink.com/ http://www.lights.com/weblogs/shorterurls.html http://www.shorturl.com/ http://metamark.net/ http://www.freecenter.com/redirect.html http://www.2url.org/ http://link.toolbot.com/ http://enigo.com/shortlink This however was about a a year and 9 months ago, so I expect this list may have significant ommisions and errors in it, and take no responsibility at all for the content at the end of those links. Now back on topic, I agree with both, I think the BBC should give real urls, but have their own, tinyurl system as such. Much as I really don't like them, I think MSN has a similar thing something like : http://www.rubbishMSsite.com?go=DFG43 Of course loads of sites operate these systems, and there are security issues regarding them, for instance, letting public use a private one would mean that phishing scams could have links to http://redirect.ebay.com/34Fg5/ which to many would look real, especially if they ended up at 234.453.432.12 :8080 and found an EXACT replica of ebay's site. I think there is some Free Software (as in Freedom for those who don't know me), code lying around that lets you do this, which might be interesting to look at, and useful to use, to adopt to the BBC's needs. Certainly a better choice than what ever Microsoft is offering cheap today. -Tim -- www.dobo.urandom.co.uk If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us still has one object. If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now has two ideas. - George Bernard Shaw - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 11/5/07, George Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-11-05 at 17:52 +, Tom Loosemore wrote: Using TinyUrl is a symptom of poorly designed urls... It is? Lots of sites use URLs to pass data, on top of pointing at files on servers. The more complex the data, the more use it might have - the longer the URL gets - eg: http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/user/XSLT_TRIP_REQUEST2?language=ensessionID=JP26_1355129797requestID=2tripSelector1=1itdLPxx_view=detailtripSelection=oncommand=nopcalculateDistance=1 In case Tom's forgotten how to get to TVC from BH Perhaps not the best example - that link breaks, because it refers to a specific session. But if you're talking well-designed URLs for journey planning, see: http://www.traintimes.org.uk/cardiff/birmingham/8:00 - martin - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Ah! A nice phat session ID in there, loverly. Also means I can't get to that URL now: Session expired. The TFL journey planner has such potential, but from what I can see it's not terribly well built. Why does it have to ask me what type of data I'm inputting? Doesn't it know that SW1W 9TQ is a postcode, White City is a station, and Buckingham Palace is a place of interest? J On 05/11/2007, George Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-11-05 at 17:52 +, Tom Loosemore wrote: Using TinyUrl is a symptom of poorly designed urls... It is? Lots of sites use URLs to pass data, on top of pointing at files on servers. The more complex the data, the more use it might have - the longer the URL gets - eg: http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/user/XSLT_TRIP_REQUEST2?language=ensessionID=JP26_1355129797requestID=2tripSelector1=1itdLPxx_view=detailtripSelection=oncommand=nopcalculateDistance=1 In case Tom's forgotten how to get to TVC from BH A shorter version of that would be very useful, and I can't work out how a better designed URL would make it significantly shorter (apart from losing the /user/ and XSLT_TRIP_REQUEST2 bit) George - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On Mon, 2007-11-05 at 18:25 +, Jason Cartwright wrote: Ah! A nice phat session ID in there, loverly. Also means I can't get to that URL now: Session expired. The TFL journey planner has such potential, but from what I can see it's not terribly well built. Why does it have to ask me what type of data I'm inputting? Doesn't it know that SW1W 9TQ is a postcode, White City is a station, and Buckingham Palace is a place of interest? OK, that was a terrible example. I'll try and think of a better one :) G - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
I see the benefit of capitalisation there, lest it be misread as http://www.GigantiCurl.com/ Discovering that, ahem, Number 2 interpretation was wrong was a big relief. I'll get my coat... On Nov 5, 2007 10:10 AM, Martin Deutsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's not forget: http://www.GiganticURL.com/ On 11/5/07, Tim Dobson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 05/11/2007, Tim Dobson wrote: Tinyurl.com isn't even that good. http://tiny.pl gives 4 digit ids to it's links and is shorter. Personally I prefer this. I once did little bit of research into similar services and found quite a few. If you are interested, here is the total list http://www.goaddr.com/ http://elfurl.com/ http://doiop.com/ http://www.shorl.com/ http://burl.fergcorp.com/ http://lnk.in/ http://snipurl.com/ http://tiny.pl http://tinyurl.co.uk=at the time tinyurl.co.uk was separate from tinyurl.com http:// tinyurl.com http://notlong.com/ http://makeashorterlink.com/ http://www.lights.com/weblogs/shorterurls.html http://www.shorturl.com/ http://metamark.net/ http://www.freecenter.com/redirect.html http://www.2url.org/ http://link.toolbot.com/ http://enigo.com/shortlink This however was about a a year and 9 months ago, so I expect this list may have significant ommisions and errors in it, and take no responsibility at all for the content at the end of those links. Now back on topic, I agree with both, I think the BBC should give real urls, but have their own, tinyurl system as such. Much as I really don't like them, I think MSN has a similar thing something like : http://www.rubbishMSsite.com?go=DFG43 Of course loads of sites operate these systems, and there are security issues regarding them, for instance, letting public use a private one would mean that phishing scams could have links to http://redirect.ebay.com/34Fg5/ which to many would look real, especially if they ended up at 234.453.432.12 :8080 and found an EXACT replica of ebay's site. I think there is some Free Software (as in Freedom for those who don't know me), code lying around that lets you do this, which might be interesting to look at, and useful to use, to adopt to the BBC's needs. Certainly a better choice than what ever Microsoft is offering cheap today. -Tim -- www.dobo.urandom.co.uk If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us still has one object. If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now has two ideas. - George Bernard Shaw - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Martin Deutsch wrote: But if you're talking well-designed URLs for journey planning, see: http://www.traintimes.org.uk/cardiff/birmingham/8:00 Thank you for that site pointer. An excellent example, and a great one to bookmark! adam - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Adam wrote: What does everyone else think. bbc.com/2e5u8e David PS it's smaller than tinyurl and it's a use for bbc.com too... (unless it's used internationally) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 5 Nov 2007, at 12:58, David Greaves wrote: Adam wrote: What does everyone else think. bbc.com/2e5u8e David PS it's smaller than tinyurl and it's a use for bbc.com too... (unless it's used internationally) 'course, bbc.co.uk has had some kind of redirect magic for a while: http://bbc.co.uk/zanelowe/ though i suspect the problem (and usage of tinyurl) is that to get one of those nice urls hooked up, you gotta email someone a request, who needs to get approval from a manager probably not all that efficient when all you want to do is send an email out and go home (or to the pub!) - james -- James Cox, Internet Consultant t: 07968 349990 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: http://imaj.es/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On 05/11/2007, David Greaves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adam Lindsay wrote: Martin Deutsch wrote: But if you're talking well-designed URLs for journey planning, see: http://www.traintimes.org.uk/cardiff/birmingham/8:00 Thank you for that site pointer. An excellent example, and a great one to bookmark! True - but that is just a clever UI to a search engine. nah, that's Matthew Somerville making our lives easier... And for any 'clever' URL scheme you can think of for indexing content I can guarantee that TMTOWTDI - and if I use *my* way to make up the URL and not your way then I'm toast You want an 8am train from Cardiff to Birmingham? http://www.traintimes.org.uk/8:00/cardiff/birmingham The requested URL /8:00/cardiff/birmingham was not found on this server. nooo! Matthew will now doubtless fix the url to work every which way, and he's got more important things to do... - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
Martin Belam wrote: though i suspect the problem (and usage of tinyurl) is that to get one of those nice urls hooked up, you gotta email someone a request, who needs to get approval from a manager Heh, heh, that's not even the half of it ;-) Of course: *that's* why tinyurl is used... Never ascribe to technical incompetence that which can be explained by management bureaucracy. David - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
David Greaves wrote: Adam Lindsay wrote: Martin Deutsch wrote: But if you're talking well-designed URLs for journey planning, see: http://www.traintimes.org.uk/cardiff/birmingham/8:00 Thank you for that site pointer. An excellent example, and a great one to bookmark! Thanks. :-) You want an 8am train from Cardiff to Birmingham? http://www.traintimes.org.uk/8:00/cardiff/birmingham The requested URL /8:00/cardiff/birmingham was not found on this server. Hmm, works fine here. ;-) sigh people are so complicated... Well, all you had to do was ask. ;) The reason it's as it is by default, by the way, is because URLs are hierarchical, and it's pretty pointless to supply a time without a from or a to (whereas cutting any bit off a default URL returns what you'd expect). The front page gives the manual, such as it is. Another site I've done, http://landmarktrust.dracos.co.uk/ uses a key=value URL structure, so that it doesn't matter in what order the variables are presented. TinyURL is clever - it's small and easy to *transcribe*. Well, unless you can get 1 and l, or O and 0 confused. :) ATB, Matthew | http://traintimes.org.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
though i suspect the problem (and usage of tinyurl) is that to get one of those nice urls hooked up, you gotta email someone a request, who needs to get approval from a manager Heh, heh, that's not even the half of it ;-) m On 05/11/2007, James Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5 Nov 2007, at 12:58, David Greaves wrote: Adam wrote: What does everyone else think. bbc.com/2e5u8e David PS it's smaller than tinyurl and it's a use for bbc.com too... (unless it's used internationally) 'course, bbc.co.uk has had some kind of redirect magic for a while: http://bbc.co.uk/zanelowe/ though i suspect the problem (and usage of tinyurl) is that to get one of those nice urls hooked up, you gotta email someone a request, who needs to get approval from a manager probably not all that efficient when all you want to do is send an email out and go home (or to the pub!) - james -- James Cox, Internet Consultant t: 07968 349990 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: http://imaj.es/ -- Martin Belam - http://www.currybet.net - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Use of Tinyurl in Emails
On Nov 5, 2007 10:26 PM, Matthew Somerville [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Greaves wrote: Adam Lindsay wrote: Martin Deutsch wrote: But if you're talking well-designed URLs for journey planning, see: http://www.traintimes.org.uk/cardiff/birmingham/8:00 Thank you for that site pointer. An excellent example, and a great one to bookmark! Thanks. :-) You want an 8am train from Cardiff to Birmingham? http://www.traintimes.org.uk/8:00/cardiff/birmingham The requested URL /8:00/cardiff/birmingham was not found on this server. Hmm, works fine here. ;-) sigh people are so complicated... Well, all you had to do was ask. ;) The reason it's as it is by default, by the way, is because URLs are hierarchical, and it's pretty pointless to supply a time without a from or a to (whereas cutting any bit off a default URL returns what you'd expect). How can I help? Hi, yes, I need a train now please, 8:00 from Cardiff And what's the destination? I don't care I'm sorry, madam, we do need a destination. Do you know who I am?! I'm sorry, no... I'm a Celebrity, get me out of here! P The front page gives the manual, such as it is. Another site I've done, http://landmarktrust.dracos.co.uk/ uses a key=value URL structure, so that it doesn't matter in what order the variables are presented. TinyURL is clever - it's small and easy to *transcribe*. Well, unless you can get 1 and l, or O and 0 confused. :) ATB, Matthew | http://traintimes.org.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
