Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Wine is najis in Islam for many schools. And in the Bahai texts tobacco is described as very filthy and unclean. On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv In regards to this whole najas issue, it is not just that Baha'is don't regard unbelievers as unclean, we also have no concept of ritual uncleanliness in regards to certain foods as Muslims do. Of course, we wash our food, but there are no foods, other than drugs and alcohol that are considered haram. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511965-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I do welcome and appreciate a spiritual and metaphorical reading of that verse in Surah of Towbeh. I disagree that at the time of its revelation it was meant to be understood spiritually exclusively and not literally. Immediately afterwards, it advises the believer Muslims that they should not have any concern about loss of trade, business, or income from literally observing the law and not allowing the najas unbelievers in Mecca. It is obvious that a literal reading was required back then. I wouln't use the word literal in the context but I think I understand your argument. And there are definitely Muslims who read it in the way you suggest. What I would suggest is that you connect this to the the later verse [9.125] And as for those in whose hearts is a disease, it adds uncleanness to their uncleanness and they die while they are unbelievers. And compare it to the treatment of those with spiritual diseases according to the Bahai Faith. In the Bahai faith covenant breakers are said to have contagious spiritual diseases and are shunned. In Islam in the early generation, the polytheists were kept out of Mecca. But just as shunning covenat breakers doesn't mean you have to do extra ablutions if you accidentally bump into a covenant breaker, the Muslims don't have to renew their ablutions if they bump into a polytheist because the polytheist isn't ritually unclean. But their spiritual influence was to be decisively excluded from Mecca. In other words, in both cases there is a spiritual condition, which doesn't affect ritual purity, but it does imply a different treatment in the world. (which explains why economic factors could be mentioned). Do you understand? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511966-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto; Thanks for your message. A couple of points, since we are discussing differences: Cleanliness and litAAfat (both physical purity and cleanliness and spiritual, mental cleanliness, purity of thought, purity of mind) is certainly very much encouraged in the Baha'i Faith. What is absent is the concept of najas as in Surah of Towbeh (9th Surah) of the Quran. As I am a practicing Baha'i believer and you are a practicing Muslim, you obviously think that the Islamic law and teaching is better than the Baha'i teachings and law. Or, do you believe that the Baha'i law is better? I was not talking about mujaddids or mujtahids or imams, or saints, etc. I am talking about a Person Who comes with a Revelation (new Revelation) direct from God because the mujaddid or mujtahid does not have any authority to change/abrogate any law. Only God Himself who first gave the law can do that; and He alone can change and abrogate it. This is the Baha'i position, as I understand it. The Baha'i understanding of the Seal of the Prophets is different from the *current* muslim understanding of the concept. Recent research has shown that early Muslims had a very different understanding of the issue. Baha'is view and interpret the Seal of the Prophets with different explanations and from different angles and viewpoints. Why is that confusing? There is a diversity of readings and interpretations. Regarding your question about a lying impostor, etc. I would say that if someone claims to have a Revelation direct from God, then I should do an unfettered and independent investigation of the issue and try to determine with my own judgement if s/he is true or a lying impostor. In the process, by the way, Baha'is do not expect that claimant to perform magical acts such as levitating instantaneously from Mecca to Jerusalem, etc. These are theatrics and they are way beneath the station and claim of a person who claims to be the Divine Educator and Physician for the ills of humanity. At the end of the day, I should hear her/him speak to my heart with the voice and authority of God (just as I hear the voice of God when I read the Quran or the Kitab-i-Aqdas) before I believe in Her/Him. Best regards, Iskandar On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:53 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed comments about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least some of the points I made. I actually agree with what Matt said about finding common ground. That's why the whole dynamic of this thread seems so bizarre to me. To just go back to the original topic... both Islam and the Bahai faith require a kind of ablution or washing before the required prayers. Both Islam and the Bahai faith include instructions to pray in clean clothes and on a clean surface. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have suggestions to use perfume and scent in this context as well. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have slightly different rules regarding menstruating women and prayer. So it seems to me pretty obvious that both Islam and the Bahai faith have a similar (not identical but similar) approach to prayer and cleanliness. But when I point this out it feels like folks are going to great lengths to deny this. So instead of saying Yes, look at all this wonderful common ground it feels like you want to emphasize the differences (which I would guess in your mind would make the Bahai faith better). I think it was similarly weird when Susan was recently trying maintain and emphasize the distinction between Bahai and Muslim ways of understanding the Bible. However, I find Gilberto's comment about the Baha'i understanding of the issue of finality (Seal of the Prophets, etc.) and his reference to Baha'i metaphysical obfuscation very unhelpful and insulting. No insult was intended. He owes an apology to the Baha'is on this list. The concept is very lucid, coherent, rational, in full agreement with the general theme and thrust of all religions and Sacred Scriptures, and there is no obfuscation. I wouldn't claim to generalize about what all religions say. But at the very least, it is obvious that the Bahai understanding of Seal of the Prophets is in disagreement with the Muslim understanding. And from myside, part of why the Bahai view might seem confusing is that Bahais don't all talk about it in the same way. In this very thread there are examples of Bahais arguing that 1) Seal simply does not mean last. 2) Seal does mean last and so Muhammad (saaws) was the last MAnifestionation in the Cycle of Prophethood but then they would say that the Bab was the first Manifestation in the cycle of fulfillment. 3) While other Bahais use prophet/messenger and manifestation almost interchangeably.
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv A revelation direct from God? Can there be a revelation indirect from God? I guess we could give Joseph Smith as an example. He could communicate with angels and he had the spiritual ability to translate the Book of Mormon. The prophet was Moroni from the fourth/fifth century CE, so he wasn't the prophet but a seer-translator-angel communicator. Emanuel Swedenborg is another example. He could communicate with angels, have visions of heaven and hell, find the inner meaning of the Bible, etc. Mary Bakker Eddy is another example. She could find the inner meaning of the Bible, heal people, teach others to do likewise, etc. I would say they received indirect revelations on par with Fatima. The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto; Thanks for your message. A couple of points, since we are discussing differences: Cleanliness and litAAfat (both physical purity and cleanliness and spiritual, mental cleanliness, purity of thought, purity of mind) is certainly very much encouraged in the Baha'i Faith. What is absent is the concept of najas as in Surah of Towbeh (9th Surah) of the Quran. As I am a practicing Baha'i believer and you are a practicing Muslim, you obviously think that the Islamic law and teaching is better than the Baha'i teachings and law. Or, do you believe that the Baha'i law is better? I was not talking about mujaddids or mujtahids or imams, or saints, etc. I am talking about a Person Who comes with a Revelation (new Revelation) direct from God because the mujaddid or mujtahid does not have any authority to change/abrogate any law. Only God Himself who first gave the law can do that; and He alone can change and abrogate it. This is the Baha'i position, as I understand it. The Baha'i understanding of the Seal of the Prophets is different from the *current* muslim understanding of the concept. Recent research has shown that early Muslims had a very different understanding of the issue. Baha'is view and interpret the Seal of the Prophets with different explanations and from different angles and viewpoints. Why is that confusing? There is a diversity of readings and interpretations. Regarding your question about a lying impostor, etc. I would say that if someone claims to have a Revelation direct from God, then I should do an unfettered and independent investigation of the issue and try to determine with my own judgement if s/he is true or a lying impostor. In the process, by the way, Baha'is do not expect that claimant to perform magical acts such as levitating instantaneously from Mecca to Jerusalem, etc. These are theatrics and they are way beneath the station and claim of a person who claims to be the Divine Educator and Physician for the ills of humanity. At the end of the day, I should hear her/him speak to my heart with the voice and authority of God (just as I hear the voice of God when I read the Quran or the Kitab-i-Aqdas) before I believe in Her/Him. Best regards, Iskandar On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:53 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed comments about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least some of the points I made. I actually agree with what Matt said about finding common ground. That's why the whole dynamic of this thread seems so bizarre to me. To just go back to the original topic... both Islam and the Bahai faith require a kind of ablution or washing before the required prayers. Both Islam and the Bahai faith include instructions to pray in clean clothes and on a clean surface. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have suggestions to use perfume and scent in this context as well. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have slightly different rules regarding menstruating women and prayer. So it seems to me pretty obvious that both Islam and the Bahai faith have a similar (not identical but similar) approach to prayer and cleanliness. But when I point this out it feels like folks are going to great lengths to deny this. So instead of saying Yes, look at all this wonderful common ground it feels like you want to emphasize the differences (which I would guess in your mind would make the Bahai faith better). I think it was similarly weird when Susan was recently trying maintain and emphasize the distinction between Bahai and Muslim ways of understanding the Bible. However, I find Gilberto's comment about the Baha'i understanding of the issue of finality (Seal of the Prophets, etc.) and his reference to Baha'i metaphysical obfuscation very unhelpful and insulting. No insult was intended. He owes an apology to the Baha'is on this list. The concept is very lucid, coherent, rational, in full agreement with the general theme and thrust of all religions and
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Regarding your question about a lying impostor, etc. I would say that if someone claims to have a Revelation direct from God, then I should do an unfettered and independent investigation of the issue and try to determine with my own judgement if s/he is true or a lying impostor. I should add that the original Arabic stays that anyone claiming to have an Amr from God prior to the passing of a thousand years is a lying impostor. My interpretation is not that it is someone who claims to have received a vision, a visit by an angel or anything else. Rather we are talking about someone who claims to have a new Cause, i.e. a new religion from God. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511788-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv What about the restoration of an existing religion? According to Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation anyone claiming authority over the House of Justice would be laying claim to an Amr in that sense: The meaning of this is that any individual who, before the expiry of a full thousand years -- years known and clearly established by common usage and requiring no interpretation -- should lay claim to a Revelation direct from God, even though he should reveal certain signs, that man is assuredly false and an impostor. snip The substance is, that prior to the completion of a thousand years, no individual may presume to breathe a word. All must consider themselves to be of the order of subjects, submissive and obedient to the commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice. Should any deviate by so much as a needle's point from the decrees of the Universal House of Justice, or falter in his compliance therewith, then is he of the outcast and rejected. (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 67) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511836-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Doesn't the UHJ only have jurisdiction over Baha'is? The Baha'i Studies Listserv What about the restoration of an existing religion? According to Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation anyone claiming authority over the House of Justice would be laying claim to an Amr in that sense: The meaning of this is that any individual who, before the expiry of a full thousand years -- years known and clearly established by common usage and requiring no interpretation -- should lay claim to a Revelation direct from God, even though he should reveal certain signs, that man is assuredly false and an impostor. snip The substance is, that prior to the completion of a thousand years, no individual may presume to breathe a word. All must consider themselves to be of the order of subjects, submissive and obedient to the commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice. Should any deviate by so much as a needle's point from the decrees of the Universal House of Justice, or falter in his compliance therewith, then is he of the outcast and rejected. (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 67) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511836-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511840-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Doesn't the UHJ only have jurisdiction over Baha'is? Of course. And the statement whoso layeth claim to a revelation direct from God is directed to Baha'is as well. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511862-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Continuing... On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: Dear Gilberto; Thanks for your message. You are welcome. A couple of points, since we are discussing differences: Cleanliness and litAAfat (both physical purity and cleanliness and spiritual, mental cleanliness, purity of thought, purity of mind) is certainly very much encouraged in the Baha'i Faith. Yes, I agree. That is also highly emphasized in Islam. There is even a hadith which says that cleanliness is half of faith. Yes, I was aware of that hadith. Cleanliness is definitely taught in Islam. najas concept is not part of Baha'i teachings and laws. What is absent is the concept of najas as in Surah of Towbeh (9th Surah) of the Quran. I understand what you are refering to. The verse which says idolaters are unclean. I understand that some scholars (especially) Shia may have a different view but do you believe me when I tell you that the Hanafi school (which is what I'm most familiar with, and which is the largest of the four Sunni schools) reads that particular verse spiritually? It does not say that the living body of a polytheist is najis? It says that polythesist can even enter the Kaaba? Oh, I certainly do believe you and understand what you say from a Hanafi point of view. I do welcome and appreciate a spiritual and metaphorical reading of that verse in Surah of Towbeh. I disagree that at the time of its revelation it was meant to be understood spiritually exclusively and not literally. Immediately afterwards, it advises the believer Muslims that they should not have any concern about loss of trade, business, or income from literally observing the law and not allowing the najas unbelievers in Mecca. It is obvious that a literal reading was required back then. Also, I found something interesting. Further down in this same surah, there is a verse which talks about how unbelievers responded to the revelation of the Quran. [9.125] And as for those in whose hearts is a disease, it adds uncleanness to their uncleanness and they die while they are unbelievers. I understand that the Kitab-I-Aqdas says: God hath, likewise, as a bounty from His presence, abolished the concept of uncleanness, whereby divers things and peoples have been held to be impure. and I admit there are differences between the Muslim laws regarding what is clean and not clean for the purposes of prayer and the Bahai concept. So even though according to one quote people are no longer impure or unclean isn't there a concept of spiritual diseases in the Bahai faith where certain people are construed to have a contagious spiritual disease and should be shunned? I understand how a different word is used but don't you also see a little bit of similarity there as well? for the next point, let me just put the context back in: For me as a Baha'i, the idea that at some point in time (e.g., in 632) God decided to go into permanent retirement and leave humanity to its own devices forever, with-holding His grace and bounty forever, is unacceptable and far from His loving kindness, justice, and mercy. And as I'm sure we've discussed before, even Muslims who insist that no more prophets and messengers are coming are still perfectly willing to accept the continuing appearance of imams, mujaddids, mujtahids, qutbs, awliya and even manifestations (insan al-kamil) who continue to receive and share guidance from Allah even in the form of kashf and ilham. And the point about insan-al-kamil is actually important because I know Sunni Muslims who say that such people are alive today (perfectly polished souls who reflect the Attributes of Allah). In other words Muslims who are open to the idea that such manifestations are alive in the world today but the Bahais due to literal interpretations and clouds in the writings would treat such a person like a lying impostor. I was not talking about mujaddids or mujtahids or imams, or saints, etc. I am talking about a Person Who comes with a Revelation (new Revelation) direct from God because the mujaddid or mujtahid does not have any authority to change/abrogate any law. It just seems to me like you are talking about two separate things, and at one point the bar is one place and now you moved it elsewhere. First you started talking about God going into retirement and withholding His grace and bounty on humanity. And I hope it is clear that is nowhere near the Islamic position. There are many different ways which according to Islam, God continues to cause special individuals to appear to provide guidance, to revive religious truth, and to manifest his mercy on the world. And actually if you look up kashf (unveiling) and ilham (inspiration) you would see that even some form of
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv So why should non-Baha'is care if Baha'u'llah says there will be no new prophets for atleast 1000 years? (Some Pilgrim Note say 1000 years is a minimum and it could be 6000 years to 500,000 years depending on the need of humanity.) The Baha'i Studies Listserv Doesn't the UHJ only have jurisdiction over Baha'is? Of course. And the statement whoso layeth claim to a revelation direct from God is directed to Baha'is as well. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511862-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511881-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv In regards to this whole najas issue, it is not just that Baha'is don't regard unbelievers as unclean, we also have no concept of ritual uncleanliness in regards to certain foods as Muslims do. Of course, we wash our food, but there are no foods, other than drugs and alcohol that are considered haram. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511909-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed comments about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least some of the points I made. Gilberto either didn't understand or misunderstood my comments. But I'm reluctant to try to clarify and reclarify again and again. However, I find Gilberto's comment about the Baha'i understanding of the issue of finality (Seal of the Prophets, etc.) and his reference to Baha'i metaphysical obfuscation very unhelpful and insulting. He owes an apology to the Baha'is on this list. The concept is very lucid, coherent, rational, in full agreement with the general theme and thrust of all religions and Sacred Scriptures, and there is no obfuscation. For me as a Baha'i, the idea that at some point in time (e.g., in 632) God decided to go into permanent retirement and leave humanity to its own devices forever, with-holding His grace and bounty forever, is unacceptable and far from His loving kindness, justice, and mercy. This is a discussion list and nobody is proselytizing Gilberto or anyone else because proselytizing is prohibited in the Baha'i Faith. Gilberto is here on his own accord and he can leave anytime he wants. (Actually, a few years ago, he was asked to leave this list and Susan told him that he was no longer welcome here). At any rate, nobody is proselytizing him here. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-511148-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 04:06:42 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:43 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, you know guys, this whole thing is rather funny: I pointed out that there definitely is a major difference about this najas issue in that whereas the Quran 9:28 clearly and explicitly says some folks are najas, Yes, except that most Muslims don't read the texts the way you do. this whole concept just does not exist in the Baha'I Faith at all. Yes, except for how there are ritual ablutions before prayer. Commandments to pray in unsullied clothes on a clean surface, preferably after bathing in rosewater. Different rules for menstruating women. And except for warnings that certain individuals have spiritual diseases and shunning covenant breakers. Then we moved to more common ground, which I think is more positive and more fruitful. Now, the emphasis is on differences, again. Do I really need to remind you that you and I belong to two different religions? I honestly don't know where you are coming from. What did I say to make you think I think you are Muslim? Isn't it better to build bridges and build on common ground than emphasize the differences? Yes, I often do that. MY sense is that Bahais want to assert the differences Heck, there are very real and very major and irreconcilable differences between Shi`ah and Sunni. Shall I recount them for you? I prefer not to. I think you are radically exaggerating the differences and there is still a large amount of common ground. But still I'm not sure what you are trying to say. No, we Baha'is do not go out of our way to invite a non-Baha'i to our 19-day feast. It is quite uninteresting for a non-Baha'i, but if you as a non-Baha'i want to attend it, you are welcome and you will not be barred. I honestly and without being facetious I think you specifically would be a gracious host if I just came and showed up. But based on the numerous letters from Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ which were in the link I gave it is abundantly that the Feasts are meant to be exclusively for Bahais. It's not just that it is boring but the Bahais would need to have a safe space to discuss all sorts of issues which they don't necessarily want aired in front of outsiders. And like I said earlier that is a valid need which I respect. But it IS exclusive. Also in terms of Mecca, even though entry by non-Muslim is NOT a religious question of ritual purity, in the US on multiple occasions you have pundits and politicians joking about nuking the Kaaba. I'm sure the same has been said elsewhere. And even under the status quo a few decades ago there was a siege of the Kaaba during Hajj and if you go back several centuries the Black Stone was even stolen for a time. It's not a tourist attraction like Disneyland. Why should everybody be able to go? I cannot get the directive for you right now from my cell phone; but if you really need it, I can get it for you. Or, Susan can get it for you. I'd love to go on pilgrimage to Mecca as a non-Muslim but the Saudi government won't permit that. And I suspect they will not listen to Gilberto or Matt telling them otherwise. Do I
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:53 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed comments about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least some of the points I made. I actually agree with what Matt said about finding common ground. That's why the whole dynamic of this thread seems so bizarre to me. To just go back to the original topic... both Islam and the Bahai faith require a kind of ablution or washing before the required prayers. Both Islam and the Bahai faith include instructions to pray in clean clothes and on a clean surface. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have suggestions to use perfume and scent in this context as well. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have slightly different rules regarding menstruating women and prayer. So it seems to me pretty obvious that both Islam and the Bahai faith have a similar (not identical but similar) approach to prayer and cleanliness. But when I point this out it feels like folks are going to great lengths to deny this. So instead of saying Yes, look at all this wonderful common ground it feels like you want to emphasize the differences (which I would guess in your mind would make the Bahai faith better). I think it was similarly weird when Susan was recently trying maintain and emphasize the distinction between Bahai and Muslim ways of understanding the Bible. However, I find Gilberto's comment about the Baha'i understanding of the issue of finality (Seal of the Prophets, etc.) and his reference to Baha'i metaphysical obfuscation very unhelpful and insulting. No insult was intended. He owes an apology to the Baha'is on this list. The concept is very lucid, coherent, rational, in full agreement with the general theme and thrust of all religions and Sacred Scriptures, and there is no obfuscation. I wouldn't claim to generalize about what all religions say. But at the very least, it is obvious that the Bahai understanding of Seal of the Prophets is in disagreement with the Muslim understanding. And from myside, part of why the Bahai view might seem confusing is that Bahais don't all talk about it in the same way. In this very thread there are examples of Bahais arguing that 1) Seal simply does not mean last. 2) Seal does mean last and so Muhammad (saaws) was the last MAnifestionation in the Cycle of Prophethood but then they would say that the Bab was the first Manifestation in the cycle of fulfillment. 3) While other Bahais use prophet/messenger and manifestation almost interchangeably. especially in the light of 4) How the Writings suggest that all the MAnifestations partake in the station of Seal of the Prophets. For me as a Baha'i, the idea that at some point in time (e.g., in 632) God decided to go into permanent retirement and leave humanity to its own devices forever, with-holding His grace and bounty forever, is unacceptable and far from His loving kindness, justice, and mercy. And as I'm sure we've discussed before, even Muslims who insist that no more prophets and messengers are coming are still perfectly willing to accept the continuing appearance of imams, mujaddids, mujtahids, qutbs, awliya and even manifestations (insan al-kamil) who continue to receive and share guidance from Allah even in the form of kashf and ilham. And the point about insan-al-kamil is actually important because I know Sunni Muslims who say that such people are alive today (perfectly polished souls who reflect the Attributes of Allah). In other words Muslims who are open to the idea that such manifestations are alive in the world today but the Bahais due to literal interpretations and clouds in the writings would treat such a person like a lying impostor. All I really mean to say is that you are overstating the Muslim position on this point. In any case, I have been thinking of resending my request to leave the list. I certainly don't feel welcome. I think we've said what has been on our minds. I don't see your views or my views growing or changing much. So I should focus my time on other pursuits. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511576-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Isn't it better to build bridges and build on common ground than emphasize the differences? That was the whole point that I was trying to make to you, as well. On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:43 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, you know guys, this whole thing is rather funny: I pointed out that there definitely is a major difference about this najas issue in that whereas the Quran 9:28 clearly and explicitly says some folks are najas, this whole concept just does not exist in the Baha'I Faith at all. Then we moved to more common ground, which I think is more positive and more fruitful. Now, the emphasis is on differences, again. Do I really need to remind you that you and I belong to two different religions? You think that I had forgotten that? Isn't it better to build bridges and build on common ground than emphasize the differences? Of course the Baha'i Faith has laws and commandments that are different from Islam. Heck, there are very real and very major and irreconcilable differences between Shi`ah and Sunni. Shall I recount them for you? I prefer not to. No, we Baha'is do not go out of our way to invite a non-Baha'i to our 19-day feast. It is quite uninteresting for a non-Baha'i, but if you as a non-Baha'i want to attend it, you are welcome and you will not be barred. I cannot get the directive for you right now from my cell phone; but if you really need it, I can get it for you. Or, Susan can get it for you. I'd love to go on pilgrimage to Mecca as a non-Muslim but the Saudi government won't permit that. And I suspect they will not listen to Gilberto or Matt telling them otherwise. Do I begrudge or hate Muslims for not letting me visit the Kaabah? No, of course not. Regarding the issue of Seal of the Prophets, my conclusion is that Baha'u'llah's reading and interpretation of this whole issue of finality is the most profound understanding of the term. We Baha'is certainly do believe in Islam and in the Quran in a manner that is totally unacceptable by a Christian or a Jew or a Zoroastrian person. Of course we have a different hermeneutic, and a different reading of the Quran. There is a major and irreconcilable difference between the Shi`ah understanding of people in authority in Quran 4:59 and the Sunni understanding of the verse. For a Shi`ah the first 3 Caliphs were simply illegitimate and usurpers of `Ali's right to be the infallible successor to the Prophet and the interpreter of the Quran. I prefer to dwell on commonalities and de-emphasize the differences. But I think I'm going to stop posting any more comments. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-511021-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:56:44 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments. Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet in the same sense that Jesus, Moses, and Baha'u'llah are the last Prophet. And the first Prophet. It's all explained in Baha'u'llah's Book of Certitude and in Khazeh's paper. I've read Khazeh's paper and parts of the Book of Certitude. I know what you are saying. I don't want to argue about it. All I'm saying is that this is definitely not the ordinary meaning of the word last. And it isn't what Muslims mean by last. And when I'm feeling uncharitable I would just say it is dishonest. But otherwise I think it is a sincerely believed paradox. Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of God in the same sense that Moses, Muhammad, you, and me are Sons of God. The uniqueness of Christ was not that He was fatherless and conceived of the Holy Spirit. The uniqueness of Jesus is because He was the Word, the Logos, the Primal Will; it's because He was a lamp from which the unique light of haqiqat muhammadiyyah was shining. In other words, Baha'is believe that He was as unique as Moses, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, Adam, Noah, Buddha, Zoroaster, and the Bab. I personally think that the concept of Haqiqat Muhammadiyyah / Logos is a powerful tool for reconciling *some* claims about the status of Jesus (as) and Muhammad (as). (e.g. Arian Christians and Muslims). But at the end of the day, Bahais read the Quran in ways which are radically different enough for me to say they don't believe it. (Most obviously when it comes to rejecting its commandments). Regarding the 19-day feast: it is open to non-Baha'is. During the consultation period of the 19-day feast, if a vote is going to be taken, then the votes of Baha'is are counted, naturally. http://bahai-library.com
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
assert. They believe that Ali should have been the first Imam but they accept that the first 3 caliphs were sincerely mistaken and didn't conspire against anyone. And I'm sure I'm mentioned before that even in Sunni sources, Sunnis are supposed to love Ahl al-Bayt. And especially according to a Sunni Sufi framework, the 12 imams were still among the companions and the awliya and some reached the station of Insan al-Kamil and the Qutbs of their time. So again, I'm not sure what you are saying when in one breath you say you want to dwell on commonalities but in another try to talk about divisions between Muslims. What are you trying to say/accomplish? Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-511021-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:56:44 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments. Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet in the same sense that Jesus, Moses, and Baha'u'llah are the last Prophet. And the first Prophet. It's all explained in Baha'u'llah's Book of Certitude and in Khazeh's paper. I've read Khazeh's paper and parts of the Book of Certitude. I know what you are saying. I don't want to argue about it. All I'm saying is that this is definitely not the ordinary meaning of the word last. And it isn't what Muslims mean by last. And when I'm feeling uncharitable I would just say it is dishonest. But otherwise I think it is a sincerely believed paradox. Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of God in the same sense that Moses, Muhammad, you, and me are Sons of God. The uniqueness of Christ was not that He was fatherless and conceived of the Holy Spirit. The uniqueness of Jesus is because He was the Word, the Logos, the Primal Will; it's because He was a lamp from which the unique light of haqiqat muhammadiyyah was shining. In other words, Baha'is believe that He was as unique as Moses, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, Adam, Noah, Buddha, Zoroaster, and the Bab. I personally think that the concept of Haqiqat Muhammadiyyah / Logos is a powerful tool for reconciling *some* claims about the status of Jesus (as) and Muhammad (as). (e.g. Arian Christians and Muslims). But at the end of the day, Bahais read the Quran in ways which are radically different enough for me to say they don't believe it. (Most obviously when it comes to rejecting its commandments). Regarding the 19-day feast: it is open to non-Baha'is. During the consultation period of the 19-day feast, if a vote is going to be taken, then the votes of Baha'is are counted, naturally. http://bahai-library.com/compilations/feast.html The above link is a compilation of different directives about the Feast from Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ and all of section 6 is about restrictions on Feast attendance. It is pretty clear that non-Bahais aren't supposed to be invited and their presence at Feasts is to be avoided. If they are there anyway, the administrative portion of the meeting is to be postponed. Now, I actually don't see anything wrong with that. I totally understand that a community might want to have opportunities to discuss issues among themselves without prying eyes. But don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining. It is obviously a form of exclusion. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511021-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 23 Jun 2010 at 21:47, Gilberto Simpson wrote: ...I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be anything special about being Bahai. I don't experience it that way at all. I find it quite special, to be a Bahai, and after becoming a Bahai, I went on to study Christian history and theology, and then Islamic studies - and found out more of what's special about Christianity and Islam. Religion is not a zero-sum game, where you have to put down the others to get ahead yourself ! Sen - --- Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com All is to be yielded up, save only the *remembrance* of God; all is to be dispraised, except His praise. Today, to this melody of the Company on high, the world will leap and dance: `Glory be to my Lord, the All-Glorious!' (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 93) -- -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510929-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Thanks. Gilberto's point was that when a Baha'i says s/he has respect for Islam, honors the Prophet, and regards the Quran as the Word of God, this is very very different (according to Gilberto) from when a Muslim has respect for Islam, honors the Prophet, and regards the Quran as the word of God. My question was whether Gilberto or Matt has *the same* respect for Christianity, Buddhism, or for the Baha'i Faith as Matt or Gilberto has for Islam. I did not get my answer from you or from Gilberto yet. Did I miss it? Is it *the same respect, dear Gilberto and Matt? Or, is it different? And does Gilberto have respect for Buddhism and/or for the Baha'i Faith as Divinely ordained religions? Matt? Gilberto? Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510918-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 00:38:16 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes, I respect most religions, even some of the nature-based quasi Pagan ones. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:26 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I am asking you, Gilberto, or Mat Haas. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510909-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:24:40 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv Who are you asking? On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:20 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Do you have respect for Islam the same way that you have respect for Christianity, Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith? Do you have respect for Buddhism? Or, for the Baha'i Faith? Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510904-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:15:29 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think that what a Bahai means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God is very very different from what a Muslim means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be anything special about being Bahai. Gilberto, It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have done those things I had remained a Christian. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto: gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-510900-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-510904-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly
Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I was brought up as a Catholic, and now I am a Baha'i. When I was a Catholic boy, I was taught to despise Muhammad and to look on the Qur'an as a strange book that should be avoided. Now *because* of accepting Baha'i teachings, I believe Muhammad was a Messenger of God. I believe the Qur'an is the word of God and is much more authentic than the Bible. I believe Islam is a true religion from the Creator. This is a direct result of my acceptance of Baha'u'llah's revelation. If someone spoke badly of Muhammad or Islam I would do my best to defend them with cogent words. If a copy of the Qur'an fell on the floor I would hurry to pick it up and clean it off. These are just examples. Because of being Baha'i, I respect Muhammad and acknowledge the truth of Islam. If I had remained Chrstian, my vision would probably have remained clouded. If I could afford it, I would visit Mecca, but I think Muslims would not allow it. Note that people who are not Bahai's are welcome to visit the shrines in the Holy Land, and to visit Baha'i houses of worship. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510937-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv That's nice and positive and I can agree with it, dear Gilberto. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510938-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 08:37:45 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv Like I said elsewhere I think all those religions (including the Bahai faith) are basically positive forces in the world and make society better to the extent that they inspire the followers ti be better human beings. But there are also points of disagreement in the mix. So I don't treat all religions as the same or interchangeable but I think I try to appreciate their positive qualities on balance. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:20 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Do you have respect for Islam the same way that you have respect for Christianity, Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith? Do you have respect for Buddhism? Or, for the Baha'i Faith? Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510904-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:15:29 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think that what a Bahai means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God is very very different from what a Muslim means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be anything special about being Bahai. Gilberto, It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have done those things I had remained a Christian. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510900-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510904-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510938-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv are basically positive forces in the world and make society better to the extent that they inspire the followers ti be better human beings. Dear Gilberto, I don't want to change your mind. This is a pretty picture. But pretty isn't always good. 1. To me, this is very weak and wishy washy. If I believed this, I would have to admit I don't take anything seriously at all. Why stick to Islam if it has negative influence? Be yourself! Make your own decisions! Have empathy. Stand up for the weak, silence is compliance and acceptance of the status quo which abuses the minority. 2. Also, You can say this about anything and everything. Everything can have some positive impact on society and people. My company does that to me even though it is profit-centric. The US government's human rights commission also does that. The boys scout does that. Kindergarden class does that and it is secular. Even atheism has some positive impact on society. 3. God doesn't exist and isn't going to fix anything. You gotta be the agent of change yourself. Pray for an amputee to grow a leg, see if God answers you. Pray for a dead child, see if God raises him back to life. For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness. Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts - Bahá'u'lláh Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510952-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Tim Nolan tnola...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I was brought up as a Catholic, and now I am a Baha'i. When I was a Catholic boy, I was taught to despise Muhammad and to look on the Qur'an as a strange book that should be avoided. Now *because* of accepting Baha'i teachings, I believe Muhammad was a Messenger of God. I believe the Qur'an is the word of God and is much more authentic than the Bible. I believe Islam is a true religion from the Creator. This is a direct result of my acceptance of Baha'u'llah's revelation. If someone spoke badly of Muhammad or Islam I would do my best to defend them with cogent words. If a copy of the Qur'an fell on the floor I would hurry to pick it up and clean it off. These are just examples. Because of being Baha'i, I respect Muhammad and acknowledge the truth of Islam. If I had remained Chrstian, my vision would probably have remained clouded. I think those are all amazing great things. And I accept that there are Bahais who help combat obvious forms of Islamophobia. and try to have a basic respect for Muslims. At the same time there are differences in understanding at multiple points. For example, you say you acknowledge the truth of Islam. And I accept that you are sincere. But a principle of Islam which is a basic part of both Sunni and Shia belief is the idea Muhammad is the last prophet, which is something that the Bahai Faith rejects. You say you believe the Quran is the authentic word of God and I accept that you are sincere. But the Bahai faith also teaches that Jesus is the divine son of God which blatantly contradicts a number of different passages in the Quran. I don't; want to rehash old arguments and go back and forth on these points, but those are just two examples where what a Bahai might mean by saying I believe in the Quran is different from what a Muslims means by saying I believe in the Quran. If I could afford it, I would visit Mecca, but I think Muslims would not allow it. Note that people who are not Bahai's are welcome to visit the shrines in the Holy Land, and to visit Baha'i houses of worship. I think most communities, religious or otherwise have times and/or places which are just for ,members of the community. For a long time the Bahai 10-day feasts have been for Bahais only. Correct? And the place I currently go to jummah turns out to be especially welcoming to Christians. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510956-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 9:10 AM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv are basically positive forces in the world and make society better to the extent that they inspire the followers ti be better human beings. Dear Gilberto, I don't want to change your mind. This is a pretty picture. But pretty isn't always good. I' don't think you understood what I wrote. 1. To me, this is very weak and wishy washy. If I believed this, I would have to admit I don't take anything seriously at all. First of all, the Bahai Faith goes even further in a more wishy-washy direction than what I wrote: Bahaullah said: There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, 2nd rev. ed., pg 217) Why stick to Islam if it has negative influence? Be yourself! Make your own decisions! Have empathy. Stand up for the weak, silence is compliance and acceptance of the status quo which abuses the minority. I don't think what I said rules out any of those things. I'm not a relativist. Also, the Bahai Faith doesn't approve of civil disobedience. 2. Also, You can say this about anything and everything. Everything can have some positive impact on society and people. I disagree, but what is your point. My company does that to me even though it is profit-centric. If it is true, it is rare but also very different from the way in which an entire religion is positive. (Both in scale and kind) The US government's human rights commission also does that. The boys scout does that. Kindergarden class does that and it is secular. Ditto. Even atheism has some positive impact on society. The reason why I asked for more specificity is because I don't think it is a coherent statement. What does atheism do? But if we narrow it down we can ask about the positive/negeatve effects of Stalinism or Maoism or Stoicism, etc. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510962-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv What does atheism do? I don't care about all those isms. Prove to me that God exists. What is your proof? Regards, Hajir __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510966-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments. Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet in the same sense that Jesus, Moses, and Baha'u'llah are the last Prophet. And the first Prophet. It's all explained in Baha'u'llah's Book of Certitude and in Khazeh's paper. Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of God in the same sense that Moses, Muhammad, you, and me are Sons of God. The uniqueness of Christ was not that He was fatherless and conceived of the Holy Spirit. The uniqueness of Jesus is because He was the Word, the Logos, the Primal Will; it's because He was a lamp from which the unique light of haqiqat muhammadiyyah was shining. In other words, Baha'is believe that He was as unique as Moses, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, Adam, Noah, Buddha, Zoroaster, and the Bab. Regarding the 19-day feast: it is open to non-Baha'is. During the consultation period of the 19-day feast, if a vote is going to be taken, then the votes of Baha'is are counted, naturally. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510956-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 09:26:24 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Tim Nolan tnola...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I was brought up as a Catholic, and now I am a Baha'i. When I was a Catholic boy, I was taught to despise Muhammad and to look on the Qur'an as a strange book that should be avoided. Now *because* of accepting Baha'i teachings, I believe Muhammad was a Messenger of God. I believe the Qur'an is the word of God and is much more authentic than the Bible. I believe Islam is a true religion from the Creator. This is a direct result of my acceptance of Baha'u'llah's revelation. If someone spoke badly of Muhammad or Islam I would do my best to defend them with cogent words. If a copy of the Qur'an fell on the floor I would hurry to pick it up and clean it off. These are just examples. Because of being Baha'i, I respect Muhammad and acknowledge the truth of Islam. If I had remained Chrstian, my vision would probably have remained clouded. I think those are all amazing great things. And I accept that there are Bahais who help combat obvious forms of Islamophobia. and try to have a basic respect for Muslims. At the same time there are differences in understanding at multiple points. For example, you say you acknowledge the truth of Islam. And I accept that you are sincere. But a principle of Islam which is a basic part of both Sunni and Shia belief is the idea Muhammad is the last prophet, which is something that the Bahai Faith rejects. You say you believe the Quran is the authentic word of God and I accept that you are sincere. But the Bahai faith also teaches that Jesus is the divine son of God which blatantly contradicts a number of different passages in the Quran. I don't; want to rehash old arguments and go back and forth on these points, but those are just two examples where what a Bahai might mean by saying I believe in the Quran is different from what a Muslims means by saying I believe in the Quran. If I could afford it, I would visit Mecca, but I think Muslims would not allow it. Note that people who are not Bahai's are welcome to visit the shrines in the Holy Land, and to visit Baha'i houses of worship. I think most communities, religious or otherwise have times and/or places which are just for ,members of the community. For a long time the Bahai 10-day feasts have been for Bahais only. Correct? And the place I currently go to jummah turns out to be especially welcoming to Christians. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510956-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Regarding the 19-day feast: it is open to non-Baha'is. During the consultation period of the 19-day feast, if a vote is going to be taken, then the votes of Baha'is are counted, naturally. Dear Iskandar, My understanding is that we are still not suppose to be inviting non-Baha'is to the 19-Day Feast, although they are not to be turned away if they show up. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511036-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv There are definitely historical examples of Bahai missionaries using hikmat to pretend to be Sufis and claimed Bahaullah was a Sufi Shaykh in order to get converts. Where that has happened, it was almost never to get converts, in fact it was done usually in areas where we *did* not teach the Faith and its purpose was to provide some measure of protection in situations where they would otherwise be persecuted. In any case we stopped doing that during the time of the Guardian. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511037-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sorry, I thought you were Bahai. I didn't realize you were an atheist. I actually don't care to argue about that. If you don't want to believe, I'm not going to (or able to) force you. But at the end of the day, Bahais read the Quran in ways which areradically different enough for me to say they don't believe it. Hi, I do believe in God. But I think this is an important question you should not avoid. Based on your two posts above, I interpret you as saying that you believe in God because of the Quran. Clearly, the Foundation of the Baha'i Faith is not the Qur'an, but rather the writings of Baha'u'llah, The Bab, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice. Of course, the **Baha'i Writings** speak very highly of the Qur'an and the Bible, and actually quote from both of them, and make statements about their authenticity in response to seekers' questions, and call both of them the Word of God for a different time. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511040-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, you know guys, this whole thing is rather funny: I pointed out that there definitely is a major difference about this najas issue in that whereas the Quran 9:28 clearly and explicitly says some folks are najas, this whole concept just does not exist in the Baha'I Faith at all. Then we moved to more common ground, which I think is more positive and more fruitful. Now, the emphasis is on differences, again. Do I really need to remind you that you and I belong to two different religions? You think that I had forgotten that? Isn't it better to build bridges and build on common ground than emphasize the differences? Of course the Baha'i Faith has laws and commandments that are different from Islam. Heck, there are very real and very major and irreconcilable differences between Shi`ah and Sunni. Shall I recount them for you? I prefer not to. No, we Baha'is do not go out of our way to invite a non-Baha'i to our 19-day feast. It is quite uninteresting for a non-Baha'i, but if you as a non-Baha'i want to attend it, you are welcome and you will not be barred. I cannot get the directive for you right now from my cell phone; but if you really need it, I can get it for you. Or, Susan can get it for you. I'd love to go on pilgrimage to Mecca as a non-Muslim but the Saudi government won't permit that. And I suspect they will not listen to Gilberto or Matt telling them otherwise. Do I begrudge or hate Muslims for not letting me visit the Kaabah? No, of course not. Regarding the issue of Seal of the Prophets, my conclusion is that Baha'u'llah's reading and interpretation of this whole issue of finality is the most profound understanding of the term. We Baha'is certainly do believe in Islam and in the Quran in a manner that is totally unacceptable by a Christian or a Jew or a Zoroastrian person. Of course we have a different hermeneutic, and a different reading of the Quran. There is a major and irreconcilable difference between the Shi`ah understanding of people in authority in Quran 4:59 and the Sunni understanding of the verse. For a Shi`ah the first 3 Caliphs were simply illegitimate and usurpers of `Ali's right to be the infallible successor to the Prophet and the interpreter of the Quran. I prefer to dwell on commonalities and de-emphasize the differences. But I think I'm going to stop posting any more comments. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-511021-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:56:44 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments. Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet in the same sense that Jesus, Moses, and Baha'u'llah are the last Prophet. And the first Prophet. It's all explained in Baha'u'llah's Book of Certitude and in Khazeh's paper. I've read Khazeh's paper and parts of the Book of Certitude. I know what you are saying. I don't want to argue about it. All I'm saying is that this is definitely not the ordinary meaning of the word last. And it isn't what Muslims mean by last. And when I'm feeling uncharitable I would just say it is dishonest. But otherwise I think it is a sincerely believed paradox. Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of God in the same sense that Moses, Muhammad, you, and me are Sons of God. The uniqueness of Christ was not that He was fatherless and conceived of the Holy Spirit. The uniqueness of Jesus is because He was the Word, the Logos, the Primal Will; it's because He was a lamp from which the unique light of haqiqat muhammadiyyah was shining. In other words, Baha'is believe that He was as unique as Moses, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, Adam, Noah, Buddha, Zoroaster, and the Bab. I personally think that the concept of Haqiqat Muhammadiyyah / Logos is a powerful tool for reconciling *some* claims about the status of Jesus (as) and Muhammad (as). (e.g. Arian Christians and Muslims). But at the end of the day, Bahais read the Quran in ways which are radically different enough for me to say they don't believe it. (Most obviously when it comes to rejecting its commandments). Regarding the 19-day feast: it is open to non-Baha'is. During the consultation period of the 19-day feast, if a vote is going to be taken, then the votes of Baha'is are counted, naturally. http://bahai-library.com/compilations/feast.html The above link is a compilation of different directives about the Feast from Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ and all of section 6 is about restrictions on Feast attendance. It is pretty clear that non-Bahais aren't supposed to be invited and their presence
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called the manifestations of the power of God, and the sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His commandments.? As I said, I don't know how authentic those ahadith are. I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame Islam or Muslims as Muslims. I believe the issue was najas, not Islam or Muslims. You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is just Jews. If anything, it is just Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam. I think the fact that the Safavids forcibly converted Iran to Shi'ism was a problem, but the intolerance towards religious minorities was introduced by the 'ulama brought in from Iraq, so it isn't just an Iranian thing. I think you are mischaracterizing what the ulama are saying. And they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq. If they say Baha'is are not najas I'll be impressed. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510688-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan, I don't think you understood what I said. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least). I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site. No. The verse in question is: [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have cooties. Personally Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them, that is another question. Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those particular ways. (And do you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?) The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab. The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in this thread) So if you want to shake hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then I'd be happy to partake. As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination. In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the Muslim world as a whole. Marriage is a tricky question. Officially, neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage. So Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that category) As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove, It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is still a sacrament and so it can still only happen between baptized Christians. And Catholics are a majority of Christians worldwide. In any case, the Bible still says Be not yoked with unbelievers. Judaism is more tolerant of women intermarrying than men. Islam is just the opposite. Men can intermarry but not women. I think you are mischaracterizing this. Not to marry non-Jews (of either sex) is one of the 613 commandments of the Torah. And even if it wasn't a violation of what is seen as a divine commandment, it is seen as leading to the dissolution of the Jewish community and is often described as finishing up where Hitler left off... Now, according to Judaism a child who is born to a Jewish mother is Jewish. So the point isn't that Judaism is tolerant of women intermarrying.. In either case, intermarriage is not ok. But if a women intermarries, the Jewish family and the rabbis who disapprove can find cold comfort in the thought Oh at least the kids will be Jewish __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510698-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think it would be a great idea if Gilberto or Matt ask Sistani or Fazel Lankarani about Baha'is specifically, if they consider us Baha'is as najas infidels apostates or kAAfir or mushrik. Dear Matt and Gilberto, will you both kindly do ask this question in separate letters from the Shiah Ayatollahs Lankarani, Khamenei, and Sistani and from other leading Sunni mufti scholars? Best regards Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called the manifestations of the power of God, and the sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His commandments.? As I said, I don't know how authentic those ahadith are. I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame Islam or Muslims as Muslims. I believe the issue was najas, not Islam or Muslims. You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is just Jews. If anything, it is just Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam. I think the fact that the Safavids forcibly converted Iran to Shi'ism was a problem, but the intolerance towards religious minorities was introduced by the 'ulama brought in from Iraq, so it isn't just an Iranian thing. I think you are mischaracterizing what the ulama are saying. And they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq. If they say Baha'is are not najas I'll be impressed. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510688-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510702-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, I seriously doubt if the Quran verse 9:28 was meant to be understood spiritually back then at that time when it was revealed in early 7th century because it is reassuring the early Muslims not to worry about the loss of trade and business with the Meccans. This is manifestly obvious. But it would be nice if it is understood and read metaphorically nowadays by all Muslims regarding Baha'is or regarding folks who don't believe in God, or people who don't believe in any religion, or Buddhists or Hindus, etc. Alas, that's not the case. Best regards Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan, I don't think you understood what I said. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least). I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site. No. The verse in question is: [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have cooties. Personally Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them, that is another question. Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those particular ways. (And do you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?) The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab. The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in this thread) So if you want to shake hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then I'd be happy to partake. As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination. In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the Muslim world as a whole. Marriage is a tricky question. Officially, neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage. So Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that category) As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove, It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is still a sacrament and so it can still only happen between baptized Christians. And Catholics are a majority of Christians worldwide. In any case, the Bible still says Be not yoked with unbelievers. Judaism is more tolerant of women intermarrying than men. Islam is just the opposite. Men can intermarry but not women. I think you are mischaracterizing this. Not to marry non-Jews (of either sex) is one of the 613 commandments of the Torah. And even if it wasn't a violation of what is seen as a divine commandment, it is seen as leading to the dissolution of the Jewish community and is often described as finishing up where Hitler left off... Now, according to Judaism a child who is born to a Jewish mother is Jewish. So the point isn't that Judaism is tolerant of women intermarrying.. In either case, intermarriage is not ok. But if a women intermarries, the Jewish family and
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv apostate or kaffir are terms with neutral meanings which may or may not apply to particular Bahais. The more important question is how should Bahais be treated. I posted links from Sunni websites on the cleanliness of non-Muslim bathroom floor and the permissibility of non-Muslims entering the masjid. They are both based on the assumption that the human body is assumed to be clean unless known to be otherwise. From my own readings I know that this position which you seem to want to foist on Muslims is not a mainstream Sunni view and I think that the burden should be on you to find a leading Sunni mufti who claims that the body of a a Bahai is najis and therefore Muslims are required to ostracize them on religious grounds. This position is unique to Iran as far as I can tell and so as I already mentioned I would put it in the same category is the racist exclusionary practices which existed in the US against Blacks and Latinos. They were for a specific time and specific place and have no use today. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think it would be a great idea if Gilberto or Matt ask Sistani or Fazel Lankarani about Baha'is specifically, if they consider us Baha'is as najas infidels apostates or kAAfir or mushrik. Dear Matt and Gilberto, will you both kindly do ask this question in separate letters from the Shiah Ayatollahs Lankarani, Khamenei, and Sistani and from other leading Sunni mufti scholars? Best regards Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called the manifestations of the power of God, and the sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His commandments.? As I said, I don't know how authentic those ahadith are. I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame Islam or Muslims as Muslims. I believe the issue was najas, not Islam or Muslims. You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is just Jews. If anything, it is just Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam. I think the fact that the Safavids forcibly converted Iran to Shi'ism was a problem, but the intolerance towards religious minorities was introduced by the 'ulama brought in from Iraq, so it isn't just an Iranian thing. I think you are mischaracterizing what the ulama are saying. And they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq. If they say Baha'is are not najas I'll be impressed. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510688-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510702-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510709-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public -
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv So, you don't want to ask the question. That's fine. I just hope that the Saudi government goes along with your understanding of Islam vis a vis us Baha'is, apostasy, kAAfer, najas, etc. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510709-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 09:00:51 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv apostate or kaffir are terms with neutral meanings which may or may not apply to particular Bahais. The more important question is how should Bahais be treated. I posted links from Sunni websites on the cleanliness of non-Muslim bathroom floor and the permissibility of non-Muslims entering the masjid. They are both based on the assumption that the human body is assumed to be clean unless known to be otherwise. From my own readings I know that this position which you seem to want to foist on Muslims is not a mainstream Sunni view and I think that the burden should be on you to find a leading Sunni mufti who claims that the body of a a Bahai is najis and therefore Muslims are required to ostracize them on religious grounds. This position is unique to Iran as far as I can tell and so as I already mentioned I would put it in the same category is the racist exclusionary practices which existed in the US against Blacks and Latinos. They were for a specific time and specific place and have no use today. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think it would be a great idea if Gilberto or Matt ask Sistani or Fazel Lankarani about Baha'is specifically, if they consider us Baha'is as najas infidels apostates or kAAfir or mushrik. Dear Matt and Gilberto, will you both kindly do ask this question in separate letters from the Shiah Ayatollahs Lankarani, Khamenei, and Sistani and from other leading Sunni mufti scholars? Best regards Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called the manifestations of the power of God, and the sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His commandments.? As I said, I don't know how authentic those ahadith are. I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame Islam or Muslims as Muslims. I believe the issue was najas, not Islam or Muslims. You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is just Jews. If anything, it is just Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam. I think the fact that the Safavids forcibly converted Iran to Shi'ism was a problem, but the intolerance towards religious minorities was introduced by the 'ulama brought in from Iraq, so it isn't just an Iranian thing. I think you are mischaracterizing what the ulama are saying. And they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq. If they say Baha'is are not najas I'll be impressed. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510688-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510702-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv No. The verse in question is: [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have cooties. Hi, Saudi Arabia is Hanbali, actually the only palce in the world where that specific jurisprudence exists. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Madhhab_Map2.png That's a map from wikipedia. Sunni jurisprudences: According to the map Maliki jurisprudence covers the most territory. Shafi jurisprudence covers Indonesia which is the most populous Muslim county and some other areas. Hanafi jursiprudence does cover most of the Middle East. Hanbali jurisprudence covers Saudi Arabia, just Saudi Arabia. Shia jurisprudences: Jafari jurisprudence covers Iran, Iraq, and Azerbaijan. Zaidi juriprudence covers Yemen. Other juriprudences: Ibadi jurisprudence covers Oman. So, if you want to go to Saudi Arabia, knowledge of Hanbali jursiprudence is an absolute prerequisite. Stephen __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510732-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv If anything, it is just Persians (of a certain era)... instead of Islam Persians are not bad people. In fact, Persians invented Human Rights. All mankind is one. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510763-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 11:43 AM, haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv If anything, it is just Persians (of a certain era)... instead of Islam Persians are not bad people. [...] All mankind is one. Generalizations are generally bad. Especially about entire religions, races, nationalities, ethnicities and civilizations. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510776-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Generalizations are generally bad. Especially about entire religions, races, nationalities, ethnicities and civilizations. Hi, then do you think it is fair to say that all three, the Baha'i Faith and Islam and Christianity, are not generally bad (this even implies that they are not generally good either) ? Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510790-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, Saudi Arabia is Hanbali, actually the only palce in the world where that specific jurisprudence exists. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Madhhab_Map2.png That's a map from wikipedia. That's a nice map but I am worried that you may be oversimplifying a bit how this works. For Sunnis there are 4 major schools of interpretation of Islamic law. And especially in the past, particular Islamic rulers would have governed according to one of the 4 schools. And so the map which you shared gives some indication of the geographic distribution of those schools. But in practice, following a particular school is to a large degree an individual choice. So in any given country you'll still find pockets of people following madhabs other than the majority madhab (even in Saudi Arabia) Also the Hanafi madhab is also predominant in Eastern Europe, China, the former Ottoman lands and the Indian subcontinent so the number of people there is larger than perhaps the area suggests. And also another piece which makes the picture more complex is that there is a relatively modern movement sometimes called Salafism or Wahabism which theoretically strive to be independent from traditional Muslim scholarship. It would be more accurate to say that Wahabism is dominant in Saudi Arabia, not just the Hanbali school. And there are many Muslims outside of Saudi Arabia who would regard Wahabism as a form of heresy which only has as much prominence as it does because of a coincidental alliance between Abdul-Wahab and the House of Saud combined with the discovery of oil in Saudi Arabia. Sunni jurisprudences: According to the map Maliki jurisprudence covers the most territory. Shafi jurisprudence covers Indonesia which is the most populous Muslim county and some other areas. Hanafi jursiprudence does cover most of the Middle East. Hanbali jurisprudence covers Saudi Arabia, just Saudi Arabia. Shia jurisprudences: Jafari jurisprudence covers Iran, Iraq, and Azerbaijan. Zaidi juriprudence covers Yemen. Other juriprudences: Ibadi jurisprudence covers Oman. So, if you want to go to Saudi Arabia, knowledge of Hanbali jursiprudence is an absolute prerequisite. Stephen __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510732-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510816-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv My basic view is that with the rare exception of Hale-Bopp following, gun-stockpiling, compound-having, child molesting, poison-Kool-Aid drinking, death-cults, religion is basically a positive force which makes the world a better place. On balance, the good outweighs the bad, and any bad is usually attributable (ultimately) to sinful individuals. So that would include the major and not-so-major reilgions. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:20 PM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Generalizations are generally bad. Especially about entire religions, races, nationalities, ethnicities and civilizations. Hi, then do you think it is fair to say that all three, the Baha'i Faith and Islam and Christianity, are not generally bad (this even implies that they are not generally good either) ? Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510790-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510824-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv religion is basically a positive force which makes the world a better place. On balance, the good outweighs the bad, and any bad is usually attributable (ultimately) to sinful individuals. So that would include the major and not-so-major reilgions. ~ Wow great. So you would also include humanism (atheistic good) and manmade institutions like corporations which focus on doing good? Or not? Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510828-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, I mean atheism specifically, Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510832-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm saying be more specific :) On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 3:54 PM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, I mean atheism specifically, Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510832-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510841-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv No thanks. I don't follow those scholars in terms of theology. I study religions on my own, and come to my own conclusions what I think about them. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.comwrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think it would be a great idea if Gilberto or Matt ask Sistani or Fazel Lankarani about Baha'is specifically, if they consider us Baha'is as najas infidels apostates or kAAfir or mushrik. Dear Matt and Gilberto, will you both kindly do ask this question in separate letters from the Shiah Ayatollahs Lankarani, Khamenei, and Sistani and from other leading Sunni mufti scholars? Best regards Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called the manifestations of the power of God, and the sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His commandments.? As I said, I don't know how authentic those ahadith are. I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame Islam or Muslims as Muslims. I believe the issue was najas, not Islam or Muslims. You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is just Jews. If anything, it is just Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam. I think the fact that the Safavids forcibly converted Iran to Shi'ism was a problem, but the intolerance towards religious minorities was introduced by the 'ulama brought in from Iraq, so it isn't just an Iranian thing. I think you are mischaracterizing what the ulama are saying. And they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq. If they say Baha'is are not najas I'll be impressed. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-510688-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-510702-9533...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510845-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those particular ways. As I indicated, it was imported from the Shi'ite 'ulama in Iraq and was not therefore specifically Iranian. As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination. In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the Muslim world as a whole. I don't think so. Christians in Pakistan often complain about how this Qur'anic verse has been applied to them (of course it doesn't help that these Christians were converts from untouchable castes in undivided India.) Also, my recollection is that the 15 December 2003 fatwa issued from Al-Ahzar University also declared the Baha'is unclean. That is the most prestigious Islamic university in the world. But I would agree the concept is stronger amongst Shi'ites in Iran than elsewhere. As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove, It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is still a sacrament and so it can still only happen between baptized Christians. And Catholics are a majority of Christians worldwide. But that simply isn't true. The rules do change. Whether marriage is a sacrament or not most Catholic priests at least in the US, will perform inter-faith marriages. It used to be they would only do this if the non-Catholic agreed to raise the children in the church, but even that is no longer required. There are still ill-advised but permissible. Here are the current requirements for inter-faith marriage in the Catholic church as far as the US is concerned: The Catholic party to a mixed marriage is required to declare his (her) intention of continuing practice of the Catholic faith and to promise to do all in his (her) power to share his (her) faith with the children born of the marriage by having them baptized and raised as Catholics. No declarations or promises are required of the non-Catholic party, but he (she) must be informed of the declaration and promise made by the Catholic. Notice of the Catholic's declaration and promise is an essential part of the application made to a bishop for (1) permission to marry a baptized non-Catholic or (2) a dispensation to marry an unbaptized non-Catholic. A mixed marriage can take place with a Nuptial Mass. (The [U.S.] bishops' statement [on the subject] added this caution: 'To the extent that Eucharistic sharing is not permitted by the general discipline of the Church, this is to be considered when plans are being made to have the mixed marriage at Mass or not.') The ordinary minister at a mixed marriage is an authorized priest or deacon, and the ordinary place is the parish church of the Catholic party. A non-Catholic minister may not only attend the marriage ceremony but may also address, pray with, and bless the couple. For appropriate pastoral reasons, a bishop can grant a dispensation from the Catholic form of marriage and can permit the marriage to take place in a non-Catholic church with a non-Catholic minister as the officiating minister. A priest may not only attend such a ceremony but may also address, pray with, and bless the couple. 'It is not permitted,' however, the [U.S.] bishops' statement declared, 'to have two religious services or to have a single service in which both the Catholic marriage ritual and a non-Catholic marriage ritual are celebrated jointly or successively' This latter requirement would present problems for Baha'is but I have seen plenty of Catholic-Baha'i marriages none-the-less. Presumably they performed the Baha'i marriage after the Catholic one and without the priest's consent. In any case, the Bible still says Be not yoked with unbelievers. To be precise, Paul says that. But since Paul also insisted that Christians were free from works of the law, this can't be considered a matter of law. ;-} Judaism is more tolerant of women intermarrying than men. Islam is just the opposite. Men can intermarry but not women. I think you are mischaracterizing this. Not to marry non-Jews (of either sex) is one of the 613 commandments of the Torah. Of the 613 commandments of the Torah only two are seen as binding upon women, keeping the sabbath and kosher home. I'm also looking at Jewish practice. Some of the research in Jewish conversions to the Baha'i Faith in Iran shows that women were
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something? On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.comwrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, I seriously doubt if the Quran verse 9:28 was meant to be understood spiritually back then at that time when it was revealed in early 7th century because it is reassuring the early Muslims not to worry about the loss of trade and business with the Meccans. This is manifestly obvious. But it would be nice if it is understood and read metaphorically nowadays by all Muslims regarding Baha'is or regarding folks who don't believe in God, or people who don't believe in any religion, or Buddhists or Hindus, etc. Alas, that's not the case. Best regards Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan, I don't think you understood what I said. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least). I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site. No. The verse in question is: [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have cooties. Personally Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them, that is another question. Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those particular ways. (And do you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?) The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab. The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in this thread) So if you want to shake hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then I'd be happy to partake. As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination. In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the Muslim world as a whole. Marriage is a tricky question. Officially, neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage. So Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that category) As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove, It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is still a sacrament and so it can still only happen between baptized Christians. And Catholics are a majority of Christians worldwide. In any case, the Bible still says Be not yoked with unbelievers. Judaism is more tolerant of women intermarrying than men. Islam is just the opposite. Men can intermarry but not women. I think you are mischaracterizing this. Not to marry non-Jews (of either sex) is one of the 613 commandments of the Torah. And even if it wasn't a violation of what is seen as a divine commandment, it
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv . I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something? Dear Matt, I am interested in your thoughts about atheism too. Can you please comment on that issue before we get involved in this silly exchange? Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510855-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Gilberto, Matt; Check this out http://richarddawkins.net/ And this http://WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com/ Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510859-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv apostate or kaffir are terms with neutral meanings which may or may not apply to particular Bahais. Apostasy and kaffir are terms with neutral meanings? Please, give me a break! Apostasy carries the death penalty in Islam! As for kafir, it's literal translation is 'ingrate' hardly a neutral meaning in my book. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510864-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Huh? Do I want Muslims to hate me? Where did you get that from? No, of course not. So, two Muslims out of more than a billion don't hate me. Well, that's nice and I appreciate it. Best regards and much thanks, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510848-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 16:33:30 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something? On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.comwrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, I seriously doubt if the Quran verse 9:28 was meant to be understood spiritually back then at that time when it was revealed in early 7th century because it is reassuring the early Muslims not to worry about the loss of trade and business with the Meccans. This is manifestly obvious. But it would be nice if it is understood and read metaphorically nowadays by all Muslims regarding Baha'is or regarding folks who don't believe in God, or people who don't believe in any religion, or Buddhists or Hindus, etc. Alas, that's not the case. Best regards Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan, I don't think you understood what I said. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least). I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site. No. The verse in question is: [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have cooties. Personally Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them, that is another question. Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those particular ways. (And do you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?) The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab. The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in this thread) So if you want to shake hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then I'd be happy to partake. As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination. In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the Muslim world as a whole. Marriage is a tricky question. Officially, neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage. So Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that category) As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove, It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the Catholic Church and look
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv That's OK, that you don't want to ask the question from Sistani or Lankarani, etc. I understand. Had you or another tolerant and open minded Muslim been able to get a decree from Lankarani or Sistani that Baha'is are not najas, it would have been a tremendous help towards the improvement of the human rights situation of Baha'is. The issue, however, is not a matter of theology however, it's a matter of law and day to day practice by the way. Anyhow, it's OK that you don't want to ask. I guess I was a bit too optimistic. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510845-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 16:26:00 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv No thanks. I don't follow those scholars in terms of theology. I study religions on my own, and come to my own conclusions what I think about them. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.comwrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think it would be a great idea if Gilberto or Matt ask Sistani or Fazel Lankarani about Baha'is specifically, if they consider us Baha'is as najas infidels apostates or kAAfir or mushrik. Dear Matt and Gilberto, will you both kindly do ask this question in separate letters from the Shiah Ayatollahs Lankarani, Khamenei, and Sistani and from other leading Sunni mufti scholars? Best regards Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called the manifestations of the power of God, and the sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His commandments.? As I said, I don't know how authentic those ahadith are. I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame Islam or Muslims as Muslims. I believe the issue was najas, not Islam or Muslims. You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is just Jews. If anything, it is just Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam. I think the fact that the Safavids forcibly converted Iran to Shi'ism was a problem, but the intolerance towards religious minorities was introduced by the 'ulama brought in from Iraq, so it isn't just an Iranian thing. I think you are mischaracterizing what the ulama are saying. And they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq. If they say Baha'is are not najas I'll be impressed. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-510688-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-510702-9533...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510845-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something? The problem, Matt, is that Iranian Baha'is like Iskandar have already experienced this hatred first hand and often in very traumatic ways. And this isn't just a Shi'ite problem. Let me quote what al-Azhar, the most prestigious Islamic university in the world had to say about Baha'is: Surely Al-Azhar calls out to those who are responsible for the state of affairs in the Arab Republic of Egypt that they should be resolute in their stand against this deviated group which has rebelled against the religion of Allah and against the public order of this society. They should execute the verdict of Allah against them and promulgate laws to crush them and to defile and defame them and their thoughts. This should be done so as to support and protect all their fellow citizens lest they become apostate by this heretic sect and move away from the straight path of Allah. Surely it is necessary for all of these people who have harmed the interests of Islam and the country that they should not be seen alive and if this should not happen then they should make sure that they never utter anything against Islam This matter surely calls for a rapid and active response from the religious authorities and jurists and those responsible with the enforcements and executions of these matters. Let us always remember that Allah has Allah has granted to those in authority (the power of enforcement) what it has not granted to Quran too. This mischief in Islam should be dealt with concern and attention as it is among the major crimes and sins against Islam. Then let us all rush out to defend the rights of Allah which have been defiled and violated. Let us also rush out to defend Islam, the religion of Allah, regarding which people have been put to trial by the false and vain talks (of these deviated sects). We may consider these actions to be small and insignificant but surely they have a great position near Allah. Now, granted there are Muslims such as yourself who do not pay any attention to the fatwas of the 'ulama but this is not the case for most Muslims and this puts Baha'is in a very precarious position in nearly all Muslim countries. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510869-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions - where?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those particular ways. As I indicated, it was imported from the Shi'ite 'ulama in Iraq and was not therefore specifically Iranian. I think in the period you were talking about Iraq wasn't even a country yet and the region was dominated by the Safavids. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510887-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions - where?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't think so. I think Iraq was part of the Ottoman Empire until the early 1920's or so. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510887-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:06:47 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions - where? The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those particular ways. As I indicated, it was imported from the Shi'ite 'ulama in Iraq and was not therefore specifically Iranian. I think in the period you were talking about Iraq wasn't even a country yet and the region was dominated by the Safavids. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510887-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions - inter-marriage
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove, It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is still a sacrament and so it can still only happen between baptized Christians. And Catholics are a majority of Christians worldwide. But that simply isn't true. The current online version of the Catholic Code of Canon Law says: Can. 1086 §1. A marriage between two persons, one of whom has been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it and has not defected from it by a formal act and the other of whom is not baptized, is invalid. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3Y.HTM And last year the *current* Pope changed that to be even more cut-and-dried A marriage between two persons, one of whom was baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, and the other of whom is not baptized, is invalid. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/b16omnium.HTM Judaism is more tolerant of women intermarrying than men. Islam is just the opposite. Men can intermarry but not women. I think you are mischaracterizing this. Not to marry non-Jews (of either sex) is one of the 613 commandments of the Torah. Of the 613 commandments of the Torah only two are seen as binding upon women, keeping the sabbath and kosher home. I think you are being bizarre here. I hope you don't mean what you said here.So according to Judaism women are allowed to commit murder, steal, commit idolatry ? In any case: Deuteronomy 7:3 says: 3Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, Anyway, both these sets of rules are still more restrictive than �(Lawful unto you in marriage are chaste women who are believers and chaste women among the people of the book�. (al-Ma�idah, 5). __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510890-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm not sure what your point is.? On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 5:24 PM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Gilberto, Matt; Check this out http://richarddawkins.net/ And this http://WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com/ Sent by iPhone __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510859-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510891-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be anything special about being Bahai. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something? On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, I seriously doubt if the Quran verse 9:28 was meant to be understood spiritually back then at that time when it was revealed in early 7th century because it is reassuring the early Muslims not to worry about the loss of trade and business with the Meccans. This is manifestly obvious. But it would be nice if it is understood and read metaphorically nowadays by all Muslims regarding Baha'is or regarding folks who don't believe in God, or people who don't believe in any religion, or Buddhists or Hindus, etc. Alas, that's not the case. Best regards Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan, I don't think you understood what I said. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least). I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site. No. The verse in question is: [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have cooties. Personally Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them, that is another question. Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those particular ways. (And do you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?) The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab. The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in this thread) So if you want to shake hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then I'd be happy to partake. As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination. In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the Muslim world as a whole. Marriage is a tricky question. Officially, neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage. So Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that category) As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove, It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is still a sacrament and so it can still only happen between baptized Christians. And Catholics are a majority of
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv So, according to Islamic Shari`ah law, what is the treatment that a Muslim receives when s/he leaves Islam? Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510892-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:43:09 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv Anyone who used to be a member of religion A but isn't anymore is an apostate from religion A. So Nima is an apostate from the Bahai faith. If I remember correctly you are an apostate from Christianity. Spinoza was arguably an apostate from Judaism. And if a person was Muslim at one point but is no longer Muslim now then they are an apostate from Islam. That';s just what the word means. Similarly, in terms of Islamic law, kaffir means non-Muslim. Calling a Bahai an apostate or a kaffir either applies or doesn't. The important thing isn't the term. It is the treatment (which is the point you ignored from my response). __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510892-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The Baha'i concept of progressive Revelation does not mean that there is anything wrong with Islam. Baha'is believe Islam to be a Divinely ordained religion and the Quran to be the word of God. As I said, shelf life is a different story. Baha'is are supposed to defend and vindicate the truth and validity of Islam as `Abdu'l-Baha Himself did when He was travelling through the West. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510893-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:47:48 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be anything special about being Bahai. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something? On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, I seriously doubt if the Quran verse 9:28 was meant to be understood spiritually back then at that time when it was revealed in early 7th century because it is reassuring the early Muslims not to worry about the loss of trade and business with the Meccans. This is manifestly obvious. But it would be nice if it is understood and read metaphorically nowadays by all Muslims regarding Baha'is or regarding folks who don't believe in God, or people who don't believe in any religion, or Buddhists or Hindus, etc. Alas, that's not the case. Best regards Iskandar Sent from my iPod On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan, I don't think you understood what I said. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least). I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site. No. The verse in question is: [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have cooties. Personally Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them, that is another question. Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those particular ways. (And do you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?) The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab. The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in this thread) So if you want to shake hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then I'd be happy to partake. As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination. In terms of the particular religious question under
Re: Ablutions - where?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan's references were talking about how Jews or other non-Muslims were treated by the Safavids in terms of ritual purity in the 1500s. And at that time much of the Safavid empire overlapped with what is now Iraq. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:13 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't think so. I think Iraq was part of the Ottoman Empire until the early 1920's or so. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510887-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:06:47 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions - where? The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those particular ways. As I indicated, it was imported from the Shi'ite 'ulama in Iraq and was not therefore specifically Iranian. I think in the period you were talking about Iraq wasn't even a country yet and the region was dominated by the Safavids. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510887-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510897-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Anyone who used to be a member of religion A but isn't anymore is an apostate from religion A. So Nima is an apostate from the Bahai faith. If I remember correctly you are an apostate from Christianity. Spinoza was arguably an apostate from Judaism. And if a person was Muslim at one point but is no longer Muslim now then they are an apostate from Islam. That';s just what the word means. Similarly, in terms of Islamic law, kaffir means non-Muslim. Calling a Bahai an apostate or a kaffir either applies or doesn't. The important thing isn't the term. It is the treatment (which is the point you ignored from my response). Hardly, I pointed out that apostasy carried the death penalty. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510898-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions - where?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv What is now Iraq was then part of the Ottoman empire, in the 16th and 17th and 18th and 19th centuries. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510897-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:00:15 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions - where? The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan's references were talking about how Jews or other non-Muslims were treated by the Safavids in terms of ritual purity in the 1500s. And at that time much of the Safavid empire overlapped with what is now Iraq. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:13 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't think so. I think Iraq was part of the Ottoman Empire until the early 1920's or so. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510887-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:06:47 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions - where? The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those particular ways. As I indicated, it was imported from the Shi'ite 'ulama in Iraq and was not therefore specifically Iranian. I think in the period you were talking about Iraq wasn't even a country yet and the region was dominated by the Safavids. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510887-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510897-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be anything special about being Bahai. Gilberto, It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have done those things I had remained a Christian. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510900-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions - where?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think in the period you were talking about Iraq wasn't even a country yet and the region was dominated by the Safavids. It was always a country. What it wasn't was a nation-state. Iraq was only under the control of the Safavids for short periods. For the most part it was controlled by the Ottomans. If you know anything about Iranian history you will know how little control the Safavids were able to exercise over the clerics who were imported from Iraq. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510901-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions - where?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The Ottomans and Safavids fought with one another over territory. Baghdad for instance changed hands back and forth several times. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:05 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv What is now Iraq was then part of the Ottoman empire, in the 16th and 17th and 18th and 19th centuries. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510897-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:00:15 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions - where? The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan's references were talking about how Jews or other non-Muslims were treated by the Safavids in terms of ritual purity in the 1500s. And at that time much of the Safavid empire overlapped with what is now Iraq. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:13 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't think so. I think Iraq was part of the Ottoman Empire until the early 1920's or so. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510887-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:06:47 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions - where? The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those particular ways. As I indicated, it was imported from the Shi'ite 'ulama in Iraq and was not therefore specifically Iranian. I think in the period you were talking about Iraq wasn't even a country yet and the region was dominated by the Safavids. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510887-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510897-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New
Re: Ablutions - inter-marriage
The Baha'i Studies Listserv If you read further down in the canon law you would have seen it is not so cut-and-dried. Further on it states how dispensations can be given for such marriages: Can. 1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled: 1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church; 2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party; 3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to exclude. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510903-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think that what a Bahai means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God is very very different from what a Muslim means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be anything special about being Bahai. Gilberto, It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have done those things I had remained a Christian. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510900-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510904-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think that what a Bahai means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God is very very different from what a Muslim means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God. Whatever. The fact remains I would have none of those things were I still a Christian. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510905-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions - where?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The Ottomans and Safavids fought with one another over territory. Baghdad for instance changed hands back and forth several times. Yes, but most of the time it was under Ottoman control. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510906-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Do you have respect for Islam the same way that you have respect for Christianity, Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith? Do you have respect for Buddhism? Or, for the Baha'i Faith? Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510904-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:15:29 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think that what a Bahai means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God is very very different from what a Muslim means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be anything special about being Bahai. Gilberto, It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have done those things I had remained a Christian. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510900-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510904-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions - inter-marriage
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The section you are talking about is related to non-Catholics who are still Christian. In Pope Benedict's text: Art. 5. The text of can. 1124 of the Code of Canon Law is modified as follows: Marriage between two baptized persons, one of whom was baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it after baptism, and the other a member of a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with the Catholic Church, cannot be celebrated without the express permission of the competent authority. So basically even marriages to other Christians are questionable and require special permission. And so marriages with non-Christians are really exceptional (at least in principle). On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv If you read further down in the canon law you would have seen it is not so cut-and-dried. Further on it states how dispensations can be given for such marriages: Can. 1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled: 1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church; 2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party; 3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to exclude. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510903-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510908-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Who are you asking? On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:20 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Do you have respect for Islam the same way that you have respect for Christianity, Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith? Do you have respect for Buddhism? Or, for the Baha'i Faith? Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510904-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:15:29 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think that what a Bahai means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God is very very different from what a Muslim means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be anything special about being Bahai. Gilberto, It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have done those things I had remained a Christian. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510900-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510904-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510909-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I am asking you, Gilberto, or Mat Haas. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510909-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:24:40 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv Who are you asking? On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:20 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Do you have respect for Islam the same way that you have respect for Christianity, Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith? Do you have respect for Buddhism? Or, for the Baha'i Faith? Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510904-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:15:29 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think that what a Bahai means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God is very very different from what a Muslim means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be anything special about being Bahai. Gilberto, It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have done those things I had remained a Christian. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510900-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510904-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510909-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions - inter-marriage
The Baha'i Studies Listserv So basically even marriages to other Christians are questionable and require special permission. Yes, they do require special permission, but that is easier and easier to get these days. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510911-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes, I respect most religions, even some of the nature-based quasi Pagan ones. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:26 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I am asking you, Gilberto, or Mat Haas. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510909-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:24:40 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv Who are you asking? On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:20 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Do you have respect for Islam the same way that you have respect for Christianity, Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith? Do you have respect for Buddhism? Or, for the Baha'i Faith? Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510904-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:15:29 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think that what a Bahai means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God is very very different from what a Muslim means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Quran as the word of God. On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be anything special about being Bahai. Gilberto, It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have done those things I had remained a Christian. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto: gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-510900-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-510904-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-510909-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Just as you might interpret a lot of things from your own Baha'i Faith
symbolically and metaphorically, perhaps you may also want to give Islam the
same kind of treatment and see what comes from it? I understand that you are
upset by what some of the Mullahs have said about the Baha'is, but I don't
think Islam as a world religion with a billion adherents should be subjected
to what some clerics say. The Qur'an itself allows for interfaith marriages
with the people of the Book. If all non-Muslims are regarded as ritually
unclean, then how is it that a Muslim is permitted to have the most
intimate of all relationships with such a person? *And among His signs is
this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may
dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your
hearts. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect. (Qur'an 30:21) *How
can you dwell in tranquility with someone you regard is ritually impure,
and put love and mercy between your hearts? It just doesn't make any sense
to me to say that a Muslim can't be friends or even so far as physically
touch a non-Muslim because they are ritually impure, but yet it's okay to go
a thousand steps further and marry them.
Best Regards
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.comwrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Based on this verse (Quran 9:28) and other hadith, etc. there is decree
after decree, even in this 21st century, from Muslim clerics that we Baha'is
are najas, that Muslims should not shake hands with us, marry us, eat with
us, invite us to their homes, accept invitations for food at Baha'i houses,
etc., etc.
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ
عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
*[Shakir 9:28]* O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean,
so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you
fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please;
surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
*[Pickthal 9:28]* O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let
them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If
ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve
you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
*[Yusufali 9:28]* O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye
fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty,
for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
*[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:28]*
The infidels are unclean both literally and metaphorically. It refers to
their physical uncleanliness as well as to their impure hearts and souls.
According to the holy Imams anything wet touched by an idolater should not
be used unless properly purified.
When the unclean pagans were debarred from entering the sacred precinct of
Ka-bah, the Muslims began to worry about the profits from trade and
commerce, but Allah assured them that their welfare and economic position
will not suffer. This actually happened.
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In terms of books/references I tend to consult, none of them treat
*people* that way. As far as I am concerned, najas only comes up in
terms of defining clean surface and clean clothing in terms of
prayer (which in a general sort of way is similar to the Bahai). Also,
you aren't supposed to eat najas. But the idea that certain people are
supposed to be shunned or treated as untouchable because they are
non-Muslim is definitely not a part of Islam. Matt definitely cited
several relevant texts on this point...
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 10:12 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Gilberto:
The concept of najas (untouchable because something is considered
ritually impure) does not exist in the Baha'i Faith. My understanding is
that in Islam an infidel (kAAfir, or mushrik) is considered najas, or
semen is considered najas. This najas concept (ritual impurity) is
non-existent in the Baha'i religion. Otherwise, Baha'is are commanded to be
quintessences of refinement and exquisite cleanliness. The term used is
litAAfat which is rather difficult to translate as one single word in
English.
Best regards,
Iskandar
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
-Original Message-
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 00:59:37
To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Subject: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
wrote:
The Baha'i Studies
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I believe Islam to be a Divinely ordained religion, just like Judaism,
Buddhism, Christianity, the Baha'i Faith, Zorastrianism, and Hinduism.
Shelf life is a different story.
The way marriage is actually practiced in most Muslim societies is that a
Muslim man is allowed to have a Christian or a Jewish wife but a Muslim woman
cannot have a Jewish or Christian husband unless he first converts to Islam
before the marriage ceremony is allowed to take place.
Best regards,
Iskandar
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
-Original Message-
From: Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com
Sender: bounce-510586-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 13:16:07
To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Subject: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Just as you might interpret a lot of things from your own Baha'i Faith
symbolically and metaphorically, perhaps you may also want to give Islam the
same kind of treatment and see what comes from it? I understand that you are
upset by what some of the Mullahs have said about the Baha'is, but I don't
think Islam as a world religion with a billion adherents should be subjected
to what some clerics say. The Qur'an itself allows for interfaith marriages
with the people of the Book. If all non-Muslims are regarded as ritually
unclean, then how is it that a Muslim is permitted to have the most
intimate of all relationships with such a person? *And among His signs is
this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may
dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your
hearts. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect. (Qur'an 30:21) *How
can you dwell in tranquility with someone you regard is ritually impure,
and put love and mercy between your hearts? It just doesn't make any sense
to me to say that a Muslim can't be friends or even so far as physically
touch a non-Muslim because they are ritually impure, but yet it's okay to go
a thousand steps further and marry them.
Best Regards
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.comwrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Based on this verse (Quran 9:28) and other hadith, etc. there is decree
after decree, even in this 21st century, from Muslim clerics that we Baha'is
are najas, that Muslims should not shake hands with us, marry us, eat with
us, invite us to their homes, accept invitations for food at Baha'i houses,
etc., etc.
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ
عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
*[Shakir 9:28]* O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean,
so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you
fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please;
surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
*[Pickthal 9:28]* O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let
them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If
ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve
you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
*[Yusufali 9:28]* O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye
fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty,
for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
*[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:28]*
The infidels are unclean both literally and metaphorically. It refers to
their physical uncleanliness as well as to their impure hearts and souls.
According to the holy Imams anything wet touched by an idolater should not
be used unless properly purified.
When the unclean pagans were debarred from entering the sacred precinct of
Ka-bah, the Muslims began to worry about the profits from trade and
commerce, but Allah assured them that their welfare and economic position
will not suffer. This actually happened.
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In terms of books/references I tend to consult, none of them treat
*people* that way. As far as I am concerned, najas only comes up in
terms of defining clean surface and clean clothing in terms of
prayer (which in a general sort of way is similar to the Bahai). Also,
you aren't supposed to eat najas. But the idea that certain people are
supposed to be shunned or treated as untouchable because they are
non-Muslim is definitely not a part of Islam. Matt definitely cited
several relevant texts on this point...
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 10:12 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Gilberto:
The concept of najas (untouchable because something is considered
ritually
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:00 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I believe Islam to be a Divinely ordained religion, just like Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, the Baha'i Faith, Zorastrianism, and Hinduism. Shelf life is a different story. Ok, so which aspects should your sin covering eye look at? The way marriage is actually practiced in most Muslim societies is that a Muslim man is allowed to have a Christian or a Jewish wife but a Muslim woman cannot have a Jewish or Christian husband unless he first converts to Islam before the marriage ceremony is allowed to take place. I think the reasons for that are a whole other issue which are arguably based on the Quran, especially the verse which was already quoted in this thread. But in terms of the original subject, they definitely don't have to do with the idea that non-Muslims are unclean. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510619-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Based on what you said it doesn't even seem to be a Shi'ite issue as much as an issue of 16th and 17th century Persia. Do you find such teachings in the writings of the Imams? Dear Gilberto. Iran makes up the bulk of the Ithna Asharia sect. Sure. About half the 12-ers live in Iran. So therefore the rest live elsewhere (Iraq, Pakistan, Bahrain, Azerbaijan, etc.) in places with slightly different histories and political situations even though they are ostensibly following the same religion. So if X happens in Iran in the name of Islam, that is not enough to show that X is representative of all Muslims or even all Shia. Iskandar indicated that there were hadiths from the Imams regarding non-believers being najas but I don't know how authentic they are. You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called the manifestations of the power of God, and the sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His commandments.? What is indisputable is that these strictures have been and currently are imposed on minorities in Iran and most Iranian Baha'is have suffered because of them, whether it be in the form of a young child not being able to drink from a drinking fountain at school or an adult not allowed to enter into a business partnership with a Muslim. I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame Islam or Muslims as Muslims. I would say that these sorts of things generally tend to depend on time and place. So the discrimination and persecution that those Persians were inflicting the Jews in Persia is definitely a problem, and they may have even tried to justify it religious terms, but it has about as much to do with Islam as Jim Crow-era segregation (seperate drinking fountains, segregated churches, swiming pools, etc.) have to do with Christianity. Those quotations focused on Jews only because I took them from a Jewish website You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is just Jews. If anything, it is just Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam. but all non-Muslim minorities in Iran are subject to this treatment. In IRAN, yes. It cannot be separated from Islam for the simple reason that these strictures are based on rulings by the 'ulama not necessarily state law (although nowadays it is both.) I think you are mischaracterizing what the ulama are saying. And they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq. Now, if you want to argue that they are not Islamic in some ideal sense of the word, I won't quibble the point. But then we must admit that the 'ulama no longer represent real Islam. The opinions you are talking about do not even represent all 12-er Shia clerics. Let alone non-12 Shia like Ismailis or Zaydis. And they definitely don't represent Sunni opinion. Again, in the time of the prophet, there were non-Muslims (Christians specifically) praying in the Kaaba! Here is a fatwa from a popular Sunni site saying that one shouldn't even assume that the BATHROOM at a non-Muslim's house is unclean. http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1ID=1366CATE=3 Here is one saying non-Muslims can enter masjids, EVEN THE KAABA http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1ID=5101CATE=239 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510666-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, I don't think Islam per se committed any sin. I myself do draw spiritual nourishment from reading the Quran, for example. I am perfectly willing to forgive and forget any and all discrimination and injustice that has been done to me by Muslims in the name of God and Islam if only they would be willing to show tolerance to me. For instance, I'd like to be able to visit the country in which the Baha'i Faith was born, with peace of mind, and without fear of unwarranted detention, etc., being able to freely visit the Babi-Baha'i historical sites, etc. at least once, before I die. I do understand and appreciate your open mindedness, and your tolerance, etc. dear Gilberto. But the facts on the ground, unfortunately, are different. I suspect that your liberal and tolerant voice is a minority and, regrettably, doesn't carry much weight in the real world where the rubber meets the road. I am appreciative, nonetheless. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510619-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:10:32 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:00 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I believe Islam to be a Divinely ordained religion, just like Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, the Baha'i Faith, Zorastrianism, and Hinduism. Shelf life is a different story. Ok, so which aspects should your sin covering eye look at? The way marriage is actually practiced in most Muslim societies is that a Muslim man is allowed to have a Christian or a Jewish wife but a Muslim woman cannot have a Jewish or Christian husband unless he first converts to Islam before the marriage ceremony is allowed to take place. I think the reasons for that are a whole other issue which are arguably based on the Quran, especially the verse which was already quoted in this thread. But in terms of the original subject, they definitely don't have to do with the idea that non-Muslims are unclean. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510619-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, I seriously doubt if the Saudi government, the self proclaimed guardian of Islam, will permit me (a Baha'i), to go on pilgrimage to Kaabah, regardless of the fatwa. Visiting the Kaabah, the tomb of the Prophet and of His daughter, other historical sites and mosques in Medina and Mecca is a dream of mine. I have a feeling it will not materialize. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510666-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:43:45 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Based on what you said it doesn't even seem to be a Shi'ite issue as much as an issue of 16th and 17th century Persia. Do you find such teachings in the writings of the Imams? Dear Gilberto. Iran makes up the bulk of the Ithna Asharia sect. Sure. About half the 12-ers live in Iran. So therefore the rest live elsewhere (Iraq, Pakistan, Bahrain, Azerbaijan, etc.) in places with slightly different histories and political situations even though they are ostensibly following the same religion. So if X happens in Iran in the name of Islam, that is not enough to show that X is representative of all Muslims or even all Shia. Iskandar indicated that there were hadiths from the Imams regarding non-believers being najas but I don't know how authentic they are. You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called the manifestations of the power of God, and the sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His commandments.? What is indisputable is that these strictures have been and currently are imposed on minorities in Iran and most Iranian Baha'is have suffered because of them, whether it be in the form of a young child not being able to drink from a drinking fountain at school or an adult not allowed to enter into a business partnership with a Muslim. I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame Islam or Muslims as Muslims. I would say that these sorts of things generally tend to depend on time and place. So the discrimination and persecution that those Persians were inflicting the Jews in Persia is definitely a problem, and they may have even tried to justify it religious terms, but it has about as much to do with Islam as Jim Crow-era segregation (seperate drinking fountains, segregated churches, swiming pools, etc.) have to do with Christianity. Those quotations focused on Jews only because I took them from a Jewish website You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is just Jews. If anything, it is just Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam. but all non-Muslim minorities in Iran are subject to this treatment. In IRAN, yes. It cannot be separated from Islam for the simple reason that these strictures are based on rulings by the 'ulama not necessarily state law (although nowadays it is both.) I think you are mischaracterizing what the ulama are saying. And they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq. Now, if you want to argue that they are not Islamic in some ideal sense of the word, I won't quibble the point. But then we must admit that the 'ulama no longer represent real Islam. The opinions you are talking about do not even represent all 12-er Shia clerics. Let alone non-12 Shia like Ismailis or Zaydis. And they definitely don't represent Sunni opinion. Again, in the time of the prophet, there were non-Muslims (Christians specifically) praying in the Kaaba! Here is a fatwa from a popular Sunni site saying that one shouldn't even assume that the BATHROOM at a non-Muslim's house is unclean. http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1ID=1366CATE=3 Here is one saying non-Muslims can enter masjids, EVEN THE KAABA http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1ID=5101CATE=239 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510666-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv There are many religious Muslims who on religious grounds are critical of how the government of Saudi Arabia treats Muslims who go to visit Islamic sites. On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 11:14 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Well, I seriously doubt if the Saudi government, the self proclaimed guardian of Islam, will permit me (a Baha'i), to go on pilgrimage to Kaabah, regardless of the fatwa. Visiting the Kaabah, the tomb of the Prophet and of His daughter, other historical sites and mosques in Medina and Mecca is a dream of mine. I have a feeling it will not materialize. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-510666-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:43:45 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Based on what you said it doesn't even seem to be a Shi'ite issue as much as an issue of 16th and 17th century Persia. Do you find such teachings in the writings of the Imams? Dear Gilberto. Iran makes up the bulk of the Ithna Asharia sect. Sure. About half the 12-ers live in Iran. So therefore the rest live elsewhere (Iraq, Pakistan, Bahrain, Azerbaijan, etc.) in places with slightly different histories and political situations even though they are ostensibly following the same religion. So if X happens in Iran in the name of Islam, that is not enough to show that X is representative of all Muslims or even all Shia. Iskandar indicated that there were hadiths from the Imams regarding non-believers being najas but I don't know how authentic they are. You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called the manifestations of the power of God, and the sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and the daysprings of His commandments.? What is indisputable is that these strictures have been and currently are imposed on minorities in Iran and most Iranian Baha'is have suffered because of them, whether it be in the form of a young child not being able to drink from a drinking fountain at school or an adult not allowed to enter into a business partnership with a Muslim. I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame Islam or Muslims as Muslims. I would say that these sorts of things generally tend to depend on time and place. So the discrimination and persecution that those Persians were inflicting the Jews in Persia is definitely a problem, and they may have even tried to justify it religious terms, but it has about as much to do with Islam as Jim Crow-era segregation (seperate drinking fountains, segregated churches, swiming pools, etc.) have to do with Christianity. Those quotations focused on Jews only because I took them from a Jewish website You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is just Jews. If anything, it is just Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam. but all non-Muslim minorities in Iran are subject to this treatment. In IRAN, yes. It cannot be separated from Islam for the simple reason that these strictures are based on rulings by the 'ulama not necessarily state law (although nowadays it is both.) I think you are mischaracterizing what the ulama are saying. And they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq. Now, if you want to argue that they are not Islamic in some ideal sense of the word, I won't quibble the point. But then we must admit that the 'ulama no longer represent real Islam. The opinions you are talking about do not even represent all 12-er Shia clerics. Let alone non-12 Shia like Ismailis or Zaydis. And they definitely don't represent Sunni opinion. Again, in the time of the prophet, there were non-Muslims (Christians specifically) praying in the Kaaba! Here is a fatwa from a popular Sunni site saying that one shouldn't even assume that the BATHROOM at a non-Muslim's house is unclean. http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1ID=1366CATE=3 Here is one saying non-Muslims can enter masjids, EVEN THE KAABA http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1ID=5101CATE=239 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510666-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv In terms of books/references I tend to consult, none of them treat *people* that way. As far as I am concerned, najas only comes up in terms of defining clean surface and clean clothing in terms of prayer (which in a general sort of way is similar to the Bahai). Also, you aren't supposed to eat najas. But the idea that certain people are supposed to be shunned or treated as untouchable because they are non-Muslim is definitely not a part of Islam. Matt definitely cited several relevant texts on this point... On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 10:12 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto: The concept of najas (untouchable because something is considered ritually impure) does not exist in the Baha'i Faith. My understanding is that in Islam an infidel (kAAfir, or mushrik) is considered najas, or semen is considered najas. This najas concept (ritual impurity) is non-existent in the Baha'i religion. Otherwise, Baha'is are commanded to be quintessences of refinement and exquisite cleanliness. The term used is litAAfat which is rather difficult to translate as one single word in English. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 00:59:37 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv What is the difference between being in a state where one is legally required to perform ablutions and being ritually impure? Dear Gilberto, Baha'is perform ablutions before saying their obligatory prayers even if they have just had a bath, Right and in Islam there are also ways of being clean in a conventional way while still having to perform wudu/ghusl in order to pray. but the more thorough going ghusl in Islam is done after sexual relations or after a women's period. This is because semen and menstrual blood render one ritually impure. In Islam there are at least two levels of impurity. At one level, wudu (ablutions) is sufficient. For other things ghusl (a more extensive degree of ablutions) is necessary. I was just looking at different citations on True Seeker and I guess I understand that there are Bahai writings which say that purity laws have been abolished. And I suppose it is pretty explicit that semen is considered ritually clean in the Bahai laws. But there are also required ablutions for prayer, and rules about menstruating women praying in a different way and instructions to pray on a clean surface. In the Aqdas provision 75 (I'm not sure how to refer to the subdivisions) says the concept of uncleanliness has been abolished. But the very next provision says: God hath enjoined upon you to observe the utmost cleanliness, to the extent of washing what is soiled with dust, let alone with hardened dirt and similar defilement. Fear Him, and be of those who are pure. Should the garb of anyone be visibly sullied, his prayers shall not ascend to God, and the celestial Concourse will turn away from him. Make use of rose-water, and of pure perfume; this, indeed, is that which God hath loved from the beginning that hath no beginning, in order that there may be diffused from you what your Lord, the Incomparable, the All-Wise, desireth. I guess I can't read that and say The Bahai faith has no concept of ritual impurity. It seems more accurate to describe it in a more nuanced way. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510058-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv But the idea that certain people aresupposed to be shunned or treated as untouchable because they are non-Muslim is definitely not a part of Islam. Matt definitely cited several relevant texts on this point... Dear Gilberto, I guess you are right. What do we do now? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510395-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv In terms of books/references I tend to consult, none of them treat *people* that way. As far as I am concerned, najas only comes up in terms of defining clean surface and clean clothing in terms of prayer (which in a general sort of way is similar to the Bahai). Also, you aren't supposed to eat najas. But the idea that certain people are supposed to be shunned or treated as untouchable because they are non-Muslim is definitely not a part of Islam. Dear Gilberto, This is much more of a Shi'ite interpretation of najas than a Sunni one. Here is an article which talks about najas as it applies to Jews. http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=12363 It is applied equally to Christians, Zoroastrians and Baha'is. ___ The Safavid rulers, at the outset of the 16th century, formally established Shi’a Islam as the Persian state religion, while permitting a clerical hierarchy nearly unlimited control and influence over all aspects of public life.7 The profound influence of the Shi’ite clerical elite, continued for almost four centuries (although interrupted, between 1722-1795 8 ), through the later Qajar period, as characterized by the noted scholar E.G. Browne: “The Mujtahids and Mulla are a great force in Persia and concern themselves with every department of human activity from the minutest detail of personal purification to the largest issues of politics” 9 These Shi’ite clerics emphasized the notion of the ritual uncleanliness (najas) of Jews, in particular, but also Christians, Zoroastrians, and others, as the cornerstone of inter-confessional relationships toward non-Muslims.10 The impact of this najas conception was already apparent to European visitors to Persia during the reign of the first Safavid Shah, Ismail I (1502-1524). The Portuguese traveler Tome Pires observed (between 1512-1515), “Sheikh Ismail…never spares the life of any Jew”11, while another European travelogue notes, “…the great hatred (Ismail I) bears against the Jews…”12. During the reign of Shah Tahmasp I (d. 1576), the British merchant and traveler Anthony Jenkinson (a Christian), when finally granted an audience with the Shah, “…was required to wear ‘basmackes’ (a kind of over-shoes), because being a giaour [infidel], it was thought he would contaminate the imperial precincts…when he was dismissed from the Shah’s presence, [Jenkinson stated] ‘after me followed a man with a basanet of sand, sifting all the way that I had gone within the said palace’- as though covering something unclean.”13 snip The pre-eminent historian of Persian Jewry, Walter Fischel, explains: “Determined to purify the Persian soil from the ‘uncleanliness’ caused by the presence of non-believers (Jews and Christians in Isfahan) a group of fanatical Shi’ites obtained a decree from the young Shah Abbas II in 1656 which gave the Grand Vizier, I’timad ad-Daula, full power to force the Jews to become Muslims. In consequence, a wave of persecution swept over Isfahan and the other Jewish communities, a tragedy which can only be compared with the persecution of the Jews in Spain in the fifteenth century 15 …The sources 16 describe in great detail how the Jews of the capital were forced to abandon their religion, how the synagogues were closed.” 17 Mohammad Baqer Majlesi (d. 1699), the highest institutionalized clerical officer under both Shah Sulayman (1666-1694) and Shah Husayn (1694-1722), was perhaps the most influential cleric of the Safavid Shi’ite theocracy in Persia. By design, he wrote many works in Persian to disseminate key aspects of the Shi’a ethos among ordinary persons. His treatise, “Lightning Bolts Against the Jews”, was written in Persian, and despite its title, was actually an overall guideline to anti-dhimmi regulations for all non-Muslims within the Shi’ite theocracy. snipIt is these latter najas prohibitions which lead Anthropology Professor Laurence Loeb (who studied and lived within the Jewish community of Southern Iran in the early 1970s) to observe, “Fear of pollution by Jews led to great excesses and peculiar behavior by Muslims.”20 According to Al-Majlisi, “And, that they should not enter the pool while a Muslim is bathing at the public baths…It is also incumbent upon Muslims that they should not accept from them victuals with which they had come into contact, such as distillates , which cannot be purified. In something can be purified, such as clothes, if they are dry, they can be accepted, they are clean. But if they [the dhimmis] had come into contact with those cloths in moisture they should be rinsed with water after being obtained. As for hide, or that which has been made of hide such as shoes and boots, and meat, whose religious cleanliness and lawfulness are conditional on the animal’s being slaughtered [according to the Shari’a], these may not be taken from them. Similarly, liquids that have been preserved in skins, such as oils, grape syrup, [fruit] juices, myrobalan, and
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Based on this verse (Quran 9:28) and other hadith, etc. there is decree
after decree, even in this 21st century, from Muslim clerics that we Baha'is
are najas, that Muslims should not shake hands with us, marry us, eat with
us, invite us to their homes, accept invitations for food at Baha'i houses,
etc., etc.
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ
عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
*[Shakir 9:28]* O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so
they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear
poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely
Allah is Knowing Wise.
*[Pickthal 9:28]* O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let
them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If
ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve
you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
*[Yusufali 9:28]* O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye
fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty,
for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
*[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:28]*
The infidels are unclean both literally and metaphorically. It refers to
their physical uncleanliness as well as to their impure hearts and souls.
According to the holy Imams anything wet touched by an idolater should not
be used unless properly purified.
When the unclean pagans were debarred from entering the sacred precinct of
Ka-bah, the Muslims began to worry about the profits from trade and
commerce, but Allah assured them that their welfare and economic position
will not suffer. This actually happened.
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In terms of books/references I tend to consult, none of them treat
*people* that way. As far as I am concerned, najas only comes up in
terms of defining clean surface and clean clothing in terms of
prayer (which in a general sort of way is similar to the Bahai). Also,
you aren't supposed to eat najas. But the idea that certain people are
supposed to be shunned or treated as untouchable because they are
non-Muslim is definitely not a part of Islam. Matt definitely cited
several relevant texts on this point...
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 10:12 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Gilberto:
The concept of najas (untouchable because something is considered
ritually impure) does not exist in the Baha'i Faith. My understanding is
that in Islam an infidel (kAAfir, or mushrik) is considered najas, or
semen is considered najas. This najas concept (ritual impurity) is
non-existent in the Baha'i religion. Otherwise, Baha'is are commanded to be
quintessences of refinement and exquisite cleanliness. The term used is
litAAfat which is rather difficult to translate as one single word in
English.
Best regards,
Iskandar
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
-Original Message-
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 00:59:37
To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Subject: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
What is the difference between being in a state where one is legally
required to perform ablutions and being ritually impure?
Dear Gilberto,
Baha'is perform ablutions before saying their obligatory prayers even
if they have just had a bath,
Right and in Islam there are also ways of being clean in a
conventional way while still having to perform wudu/ghusl in order to
pray.
but the more thorough going ghusl in
Islam is done after sexual relations or after a women's period. This
is because semen and menstrual blood render one ritually impure.
In Islam there are at least two levels of impurity. At one level, wudu
(ablutions) is sufficient. For other things ghusl (a more extensive
degree of ablutions) is necessary.
I was just looking at different citations on True Seeker and I guess I
understand that there are Bahai writings which say that purity laws
have been abolished. And I suppose it is pretty explicit that semen is
considered ritually clean in the Bahai laws. But there are also
required ablutions for prayer, and rules about menstruating women
praying in a different way and instructions to pray on a clean
surface.
In the Aqdas provision 75 (I'm not sure how to refer to the
subdivisions) says the concept of uncleanliness has been abolished.
But the very next provision says:
God hath enjoined upon you
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv In terms of books/references I tend to consult, none of them treat *people* that way. As far as I am concerned, najas only comes up in terms of defining clean surface and clean clothing in terms of prayer (which in a general sort of way is similar to the Bahai). Also, you aren't supposed to eat najas. But the idea that certain people are supposed to be shunned or treated as untouchable because they are non-Muslim is definitely not a part of Islam. Dear Gilberto, This is much more of a Shi'ite interpretation of najas than a Sunni one. Based on what you said it doesn't even seem to be a Shi'ite issue as much as an issue of 16th and 17th century Persia. Do you find such teachings in the writings of the Imams? On the other hand, there is a famous hadith which says that the whole earth is clean and is suitable for prayer and the Quran clearly says: [5.5] This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers. So the discrimination and persecution that those Persians were inflicting the Jews in Persia is definitely a problem, and they may have even tried to justify it religious terms, but it has about as much to do with Islam as Jim Crow-era segregation (seperate drinking fountains, segregated churches, swiming pools, etc.) have to do with Christianity. Here is an article which talks about najas as it applies to Jews. http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=12363 It is applied equally to Christians, Zoroastrians and Baha'is. ___ The Safavid rulers, at the outset of the 16th century, formally established Shi’a Islam as the Persian state religion, while permitting a clerical hierarchy nearly unlimited control and influence over all aspects of public life.7 The profound influence of the Shi’ite clerical elite, continued for almost four centuries (although interrupted, between 1722-1795 8 ), through the later Qajar period, as characterized by the noted scholar E.G. Browne: “The Mujtahids and Mulla are a great force in Persia and concern themselves with every department of human activity from the minutest detail of personal purification to the largest issues of politics” 9 These Shi’ite clerics emphasized the notion of the ritual uncleanliness (najas) of Jews, in particular, but also Christians, Zoroastrians, and others, as the cornerstone of inter-confessional relationships toward non-Muslims.10 The impact of this najas conception was already apparent to European visitors to Persia during the reign of the first Safavid Shah, Ismail I (1502-1524). The Portuguese traveler Tome Pires observed (between 1512-1515), “Sheikh Ismail…never spares the life of any Jew”11, while another European travelogue notes, “…the great hatred (Ismail I) bears against the Jews…”12. During the reign of Shah Tahmasp I (d. 1576), the British merchant and traveler Anthony Jenkinson (a Christian), when finally granted an audience with the Shah, “…was required to wear ‘basmackes’ (a kind of over-shoes), because being a giaour [infidel], it was thought he would contaminate the imperial precincts…when he was dismissed from the Shah’s presence, [Jenkinson stated] ‘after me followed a man with a basanet of sand, sifting all the way that I had gone within the said palace’- as though covering something unclean.”13 snip The pre-eminent historian of Persian Jewry, Walter Fischel, explains: “Determined to purify the Persian soil from the ‘uncleanliness’ caused by the presence of non-believers (Jews and Christians in Isfahan) a group of fanatical Shi’ites obtained a decree from the young Shah Abbas II in 1656 which gave the Grand Vizier, I’timad ad-Daula, full power to force the Jews to become Muslims. In consequence, a wave of persecution swept over Isfahan and the other Jewish communities, a tragedy which can only be compared with the persecution of the Jews in Spain in the fifteenth century 15 …The sources 16 describe in great detail how the Jews of the capital were forced to abandon their religion, how the synagogues were closed.” 17 Mohammad Baqer Majlesi (d. 1699), the highest institutionalized clerical officer under both Shah Sulayman (1666-1694) and Shah Husayn (1694-1722), was perhaps the most influential cleric of the Safavid Shi’ite theocracy in Persia. By design, he wrote many works in Persian to disseminate key aspects of the Shi’a ethos among ordinary
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my
understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least). (And do
you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?) So if you want to shake
hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some
good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then
I'd be happy to partake. Marriage is a tricky question. Officially,
neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage. So
Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of
the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that
category)
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Based on this verse (Quran 9:28) and other hadith, etc. there is decree
after decree, even in this 21st century, from Muslim clerics that we Baha'is
are najas, that Muslims should not shake hands with us, marry us, eat with
us, invite us to their homes, accept invitations for food at Baha'i houses,
etc., etc.
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ
عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
[Shakir 9:28] O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so
they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear
poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely
Allah is Knowing Wise.
[Pickthal 9:28] O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let
them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If
ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve
you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
[Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them
not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear
poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for
Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:28]
The infidels are unclean both literally and metaphorically. It refers to
their physical uncleanliness as well as to their impure hearts and souls.
According to the holy Imams anything wet touched by an idolater should not
be used unless properly purified.
When the unclean pagans were debarred from entering the sacred precinct of
Ka-bah, the Muslims began to worry about the profits from trade and
commerce, but Allah assured them that their welfare and economic position
will not suffer. This actually happened.
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In terms of books/references I tend to consult, none of them treat
*people* that way. As far as I am concerned, najas only comes up in
terms of defining clean surface and clean clothing in terms of
prayer (which in a general sort of way is similar to the Bahai). Also,
you aren't supposed to eat najas. But the idea that certain people are
supposed to be shunned or treated as untouchable because they are
non-Muslim is definitely not a part of Islam. Matt definitely cited
several relevant texts on this point...
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 10:12 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Gilberto:
The concept of najas (untouchable because something is considered
ritually impure) does not exist in the Baha'i Faith. My understanding is
that in Islam an infidel (kAAfir, or mushrik) is considered najas, or
semen is considered najas. This najas concept (ritual impurity) is
non-existent in the Baha'i religion. Otherwise, Baha'is are commanded to be
quintessences of refinement and exquisite cleanliness. The term used is
litAAfat which is rather difficult to translate as one single word in
English.
Best regards,
Iskandar
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
-Original Message-
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 00:59:37
To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Subject: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
What is the difference between being in a state where one is legally
required to perform ablutions and being ritually impure?
Dear Gilberto,
Baha'is perform ablutions before saying their obligatory prayers even
if they have just had a bath,
Right and in Islam there are also ways of being clean in a
conventional way while still having to perform wudu/ghusl in order to
pray.
but the more thorough going ghusl in
Islam is done after sexual relations or after a women's period. This
is because semen and menstrual blood render one ritually impure.
In Islam there are at least two levels
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I never got an original post from David. (Maybe you posted an e-mail which just got to you). In any case, my response was directed more to him and he used the term superstition. On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I was responding to David (but it now occurs to me you may have posted an exchange with someone who wasn't on the list). No, I was responding to David as well. But it was my post in your trailer. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510227-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510243-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv But there are also passages in the Baha'i Writings, if taken at their face value, could be construed to imply that the world was separated between believers and unbelievers. *Know thou for a certainty that whoso disbelieveth in God is neither trustworthy nor truthful. This, indeed, is the truth, the undoubted truth.*- Baha'u'llah But taken as a whole, the Baha'i Faith doesn't teach that. I believe the same is true for Islam. It would make no sense to me if Islam taught that all non-Muslims were ritually impure, while at the same time allowing marriage between Muslims and the People of the Book. Marriage is the most intimate of relationships. *Now all mankind is considered to be from one single root, including disbelievers and people of other races, nations, cultures, and religions.* ** I have found this teaching also present in Islam; *O Mankind! Behold, We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes so that you might (affectionately) come to know one another. Verily, the most honored among you, in the Sight of Allah, is the one who lives most upright. Behold, Allah is Knower, Aware. (Qur'an 49:13)* Muhammad Asad commented on this verse, stating *We have created every one of you out of a father and a mother (Zamakhshari, Razi, Baydawi) - implying that this equality of biological origin is reflected in the equality of the human dignity common to all.] and have made you into nations and tribes, so that you might come to know one another. [I.e., know that all belong to one human family, without any inherent superiority of one over another (Zamakhshari). This connects with the exhortation, in the preceding two verses, to respect and safeguard each other's dignity. In other words, men's evolution into nations and tribes is meant to foster rather than to diminish their mutual desire to understand and appreciate the essential human oneness underlying their outward differentiations; and, correspondingly, all racial, national or tribal prejudice (asabiyyah) is condemned - implicitly in the Quran, and most explicitly by the Prophet (see second half of note on 28:15). In addition, speaking of people's boasting of their national or tribal past, the Prophet said: Behold, God has removed from you the arrogance of pagan ignorance (jahiliyyah) with its boast of ancestral glories. Man is but a God-conscious believer or an unfortunate sinner. All people are children of Adam, and Adam was created out of dust. (Fragment of a hadith quoted by Tirmidhi and Abu Daud, on the authority of Abu Hurayrah.)] Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of God is the one who is most deeply conscious of Him. Behold, God is all-knowing, all-aware. * ** ** ** On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 12:25 PM, haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv But finally, I'm still kind of confused by where the question is coming from. I understand that you might not call it ritual purityor ritual impurity. But if both the Bahai faith and Islam have ablutions which need to be performed before the prayers that would make them equally superstitious to use your conept.. I mean, in the Bahai case, even if you just took a bath, and then choose to pray, you would still do the ablutions again, right? That seems to be more of a ritual concept, no? Hi Gilberto, I think you are confusing different issues. Lets consider the concept of ritual impurity. I think the difference is that in Islam and especially in the Qur'an, non-Muslims, the disbelievers, and considered to be a distinct group of people separate from the Muslims (the believers) who are pure. The Islamic concept of ritual impurity is an extension of this foundational idea. When, if the Muslims are correct, the world becomes a Muslim world, the world passes from a state of general impurity of disbelief to a state of spiritual purity full of believers. The Baha'i idea of ablutions and provisions about cleanliness are foundationally different from the Islamic idea because the core concept that humanity is separated into believers and disbelievers has been eliminated. Now all mankind is considered to be from one single root, including disbelievers and people of other races, nations, cultures, and religions. This is because Baha'u'llah, the Glory of Allah, has already appeared on earth. The Glory of Allah is not going to appear in the future, it already appeared in the past. The Muslim concept that mankind is still separated into believers vs. disbelievers (and *consequently* into different cultures, races, nationalities, etc. etc.) is because Islam is still waiting for the Day of Judgment. Best Regards. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510218-9533...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan, Baha'is perform ablutions before saying their obligatory prayers even if they have just had a bath, but the more thorough going ghusl in Islam is done after sexual relations or after a women's period. This is because semen and menstrual blood render one ritually impure. The Bab and later Baha'u'llah abolished this concept. What was the point of the concept in Islam, then? If ghusl was never actually necessary from a hygeine perspective what was the wisdom of it? Were those people ever ritually impure or not? I'd like to know how to square this with Islam being a revealed religion and religion being superstition if it doesn't go along with science. Regards, David __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510202-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv What was the point of the concept in Islam, then? If ghusl was never actually necessary from a hygeine perspective what was the wisdom of it? Were those people ever ritually impure or not? I'd like to know how to square this with Islam being a revealed religion and religion being superstition if it doesn't go along with science. Dear David, Ritual impurity and what is physically impure are two different things. Only the latter concerns science. The ritual and physical impurity may coincide but they don't have to. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510204-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I would say Wudu/Ghusl are partially physical (including hygenic) and partially spiritual/symbolic. For example, especially in the context of the dark ages when Europeans even believed that frequent bathing was unhealthy, Muslims having a regular practice of washing and bathing (along with other practices) definitely had its hygenic /therpeutic effects. Also, even though ghusl might seem like some comfusing term for some bizare rituals, you can actually meet all of its minimum legal requirements just by taking a good shower. (In some schools, you are fine even if you accidentally fall into a swiming pool) I'm not sure what the big deal would be. On a spiritual level, you can think of wudu/ghusl as an act of worship in its own right. And it also happens to be one which puts you in a certain frame of mind to perform other acts of worship. Also, I've known Muslims who view wudu/ghusl as having a spiritual / quasi-physical effect. They would talk about wudu as if it changes the spiritual energy in a manner perceivable by sensitive souls. (I wouldn't call that the standard view). But finally, I'm still kind of confused by where the question is coming from. I understand that you might not call it ritual purity or ritual impurity. But if both the Bahai faith and Islam have ablutions which need to be performed before the prayers that would make them equally superstitious to use your conept.. I mean, in the Bahai case, even if you just took a bath, and then choose to pray, you would still do the ablutions again, right? That seems to be more of a ritual concept, no? On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 6:05 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv What was the point of the concept in Islam, then? If ghusl was never actually necessary from a hygeine perspective what was the wisdom of it? Were those people ever ritually impure or not? I'd like to know how to square this with Islam being a revealed religion and religion being superstition if it doesn't go along with science. Dear David, Ritual impurity and what is physically impure are two different things. Only the latter concerns science. The ritual and physical impurity may coincide but they don't have to. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510204-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510213-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 19 Jun 2010 at 11:13, Gilberto Simpson wrote: ... in the Bahai case, even if you just took a bath, and then choose to pray, you would still do the ablutions again, right? That seems to be more of a ritual concept, no? Not for purists: 18. QUESTION: With reference to the ablutions: if, for example, a person hath just bathed his entire body, must he still perform his ablutions? 113 ANSWER: The commandment regarding ablutions must, in any case, be observed. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 112) The act of the ablutions is part of the act of prayer, as are the prostrations. Naturally, if you are bed-ridden or in a wheelchair, you can't do the prostrations, and there may be cases where you can't do the ablutions, in which case, no harm done. They may also be people for whom they have no meaning, in which case, no benefit from doing them I suppose - except that the practice may well develop the meaning, in time. Sen -- -- Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com *** When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things, and the individuality of each, thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . . -- -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510214-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv But finally, I'm still kind of confused by where the question is coming from. I understand that you might not call it ritual purityor ritual impurity. But if both the Bahai faith and Islam have ablutions which need to be performed before the prayers that would make them equally superstitious to use your conept.. I mean, in the Bahai case, even if you just took a bath, and then choose to pray, you would still do the ablutions again, right? That seems to be more of a ritual concept, no? Hi Gilberto, I think you are confusing different issues. Lets consider the concept of ritual impurity. I think the difference is that in Islam and especially in the Qur'an, non-Muslims, the disbelievers, and considered to be a distinct group of people separate from the Muslims (the believers) who are pure. The Islamic concept of ritual impurity is an extension of this foundational idea. When, if the Muslims are correct, the world becomes a Muslim world, the world passes from a state of general impurity of disbelief to a state of spiritual purity full of believers. The Baha'i idea of ablutions and provisions about cleanliness are foundationally different from the Islamic idea because the core concept that humanity is separated into believers and disbelievers has been eliminated. Now all mankind is considered to be from one single root, including disbelievers and people of other races, nations, cultures, and religions. This is because Baha'u'llah, the Glory of Allah, has already appeared on earth. The Glory of Allah is not going to appear in the future, it already appeared in the past. The Muslim concept that mankind is still separated into believers vs. disbelievers (and consequently into different cultures, races, nationalities, etc. etc.) is because Islam is still waiting for the Day of Judgment. Best Regards. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510218-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv But if both the Bahai faith and Islam have ablutions which need to be performed before the prayers that would make them equally superstitious to use your conept.. I was not suggesting that the concept of ritual impurity was superstitious. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510219-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I was responding to David (but it now occurs to me you may have posted an exchange with someone who wasn't on the list). On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv But if both the Bahai faith and Islam have ablutions which need to be performed before the prayers that would make them equally superstitious to use your conept.. I was not suggesting that the concept of ritual impurity was superstitious. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510219-684...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510223-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I was responding to David (but it now occurs to me you may have posted an exchange with someone who wasn't on the list). No, I was responding to David as well. But it was my post in your trailer. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510227-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto: The concept of najas (untouchable because something is considered ritually impure) does not exist in the Baha'i Faith. My understanding is that in Islam an infidel (kAAfir, or mushrik) is considered najas, or semen is considered najas. This najas concept (ritual impurity) is non-existent in the Baha'i religion. Otherwise, Baha'is are commanded to be quintessences of refinement and exquisite cleanliness. The term used is litAAfat which is rather difficult to translate as one single word in English. Best regards, Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 00:59:37 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Ablutions The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv What is the difference between being in a state where one is legally required to perform ablutions and being ritually impure? Dear Gilberto, Baha'is perform ablutions before saying their obligatory prayers even if they have just had a bath, Right and in Islam there are also ways of being clean in a conventional way while still having to perform wudu/ghusl in order to pray. but the more thorough going ghusl in Islam is done after sexual relations or after a women's period. This is because semen and menstrual blood render one ritually impure. In Islam there are at least two levels of impurity. At one level, wudu (ablutions) is sufficient. For other things ghusl (a more extensive degree of ablutions) is necessary. I was just looking at different citations on True Seeker and I guess I understand that there are Bahai writings which say that purity laws have been abolished. And I suppose it is pretty explicit that semen is considered ritually clean in the Bahai laws. But there are also required ablutions for prayer, and rules about menstruating women praying in a different way and instructions to pray on a clean surface. In the Aqdas provision 75 (I'm not sure how to refer to the subdivisions) says the concept of uncleanliness has been abolished. But the very next provision says: God hath enjoined upon you to observe the utmost cleanliness, to the extent of washing what is soiled with dust, let alone with hardened dirt and similar defilement. Fear Him, and be of those who are pure. Should the garb of anyone be visibly sullied, his prayers shall not ascend to God, and the celestial Concourse will turn away from him. Make use of rose-water, and of pure perfume; this, indeed, is that which God hath loved from the beginning that hath no beginning, in order that there may be diffused from you what your Lord, the Incomparable, the All-Wise, desireth. I guess I can't read that and say The Bahai faith has no concept of ritual impurity. It seems more accurate to describe it in a more nuanced way. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510058-20805...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:%%emailaddr%% Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:%%email.unsub%% Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/%%list.name%% Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv But there are also required ablutions for prayer, and rules about menstruating women praying in a different way and instructions to pray on a clean surface. Dear Gilberto, The different instructions regarding menstruating women are optional, not obligatory. In other words menstruating women do not have to perform the obligatory prayers and may recite certain verses if they wish, but they can perform them if they want. But yes, there are general instructions about cleanliness in regards to ones clothing, etc. I guess I can't read that and say The Bahai faith has no concept of ritual impurity. It seems more accurate to describe it in a more nuanced way. I would say that Baha'u'llah is concerned with actual cleanliness rather than ritual impurity. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510128-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
