Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Khazeh,

At least on my side, I think your posts tend to have a unifying spirit
(or at least a clarifying one) which often allow conversations to end
on a positive note without needing a response.

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Khazeh  wrote:
> No one seems to read my postings. I posted so many beautiful things
> including all the Moojan Momen essays on Islam and the Bahai Faith…not one
> response.
>
>
>
> A Persian poet says that often when we make a point it is exactly as if a
> concert should play for the deaf or a mirror be brought for the blind…
>
> ( بقول شاعر (پیش کر بربط سرای وپیش کور آیینه دار )
>
>
>

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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Sen & Sonja]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 23 Dec 2010 at 1:21, Gilberto Simpson wrote:

> So I would want to see a
> clearer statement on how Shia define the limits of the ummah.

My answer was based on family law in Iran, because I wrote a booklet 
on the topic. If you look at the theoreticians of the republic soon 
after the revolution - when exporting the revolution was high on the 
agenda - you will find very inclusive statements, which contradict 
their theories of the justification for velayat-e faqih. If you look 
at the other end of the spectrum, at Khatami, he is again inclusive 
but sincerely so, and the same would apply to some other modernisers. 
But what the theoreticians say doesn't count for much, it's social 
attitudes that determine how much tension there is between the 
communities. 

Sen



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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
According to some Sunni scholars (whom I wouldn't necessarily
"endorse" myself but I still have acknowledge that their opinions are
out there) considerations of kuf still apply when both prospective
mates are clearly Muslim. The marriages are valid with the permission
of the wali but can be annulled without it. So I would want to see a
clearer statement on how Shia define the limits of the ummah.

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 5:16 AM, Sen & Sonja  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> On 21 Dec 2010 at 22:29, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
>
>> And maybe even on a popular level there may be a certain
>> amount of conflict and tension between the two communities. But if you
>> look to some of the most respected voices speak about  the other side,
>> they still recognize one another as Muslims.
>
> You and Firouz are both half right, because the picture is not
> symetrical. Shiah marriage law, for example, allows a Shiah man to
> marry a Sunni woman, but does not allow a Shiah woman to marry a
> Sunni man. That is Kuf' (marrying below onself). So for marriage
> purposes, Sunni are outside Islam, or a boundary case. Khomeini
> however adopted a modernising position, in his Clarifications, saying
> only that a Moslem woman may not marry a non-Moslem, and that a
> Moslem man may not marry an infidel woman in permanent marriage. That
> implicitly includes Sunnis in the fold, and more surprisingly, puts
> the same restriction on men as on women.
>
> Sunni marriage law treats Shiah like any other Muslims.
>
> So from the Sunni point of view, the differences are merely legal or
> about the details of doctrine, but from the Shiah point of view they
> are essential. It may be that Khomeini's view will prevail (I hope
> so), but I don't have a crystal ball
>
> Sen
>
> --
> --
> Sen McGlinn       http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com
>
> The influence of individual souls is and always will be beloved.  For
> the influence
> of each soul is its fruit, and a soul without influence is considered
> a tree without
> fruit in the most great realm.  Speak forth for the sake of God, and
> spread the
> cause for his sake.  Do not look at whether others accept or deny,
> but rather at
> the service you are commanded to perform by God.
>
> Baha'u'llah -- Tablet of the Son -- http://www-
> personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htm
>
>
>
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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Firouz]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 23/12/2010 11:42 AM, Khazeh wrote:
>
> No one seems to read my postings. I posted so many beautiful things 
> including all the Moojan Momen essays on Islam and the Bahai Faith…not 
> one response.
>
> A Persian poet says that often when we make a point it is exactly as 
> if a concert should play for the deaf or a mirror be brought for the 
> blind…
>
> ( بقول شاعر (پیش کر بربط سرای وپیش کور آیینه دار)
>
Dearest Khazeh,

I always read your posts with much interest. I read them more than once, 
at least twice. I have benefited and learned a lot from your posts. I 
keep all your posts in my archive and refer to them occasionally when I 
am teaching to Muslims or Christians. You always make my day whenever I 
see a post from you in my INBOX either in this forum or in Tarikh. 
Please, please keep them coming. I have learned a lot from you my dear 
Khazeh. I am thankful to Baha'u'llah that I came to meet you in 
cyberspace. I am thankful to you for all your posts.

loving greetings,
Firouz


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RE: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Khazeh]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Behalf Of Naison Jones
Sent: 23 December 2010 04:17



How can you be the return of Jesus without possessing Jesus qualities?

Obviously by return is not meant Jesus actually came back into the world. So by 
return is meant Jesus powers his attributes his station his glory...

Consider this. The station of the manifestation is utter selflessness. 
Therefore They consider themselves only reflectors of the light. This being the 
case It is logical that they claim each is the return of the other. That is 
they are refereing to the light within them since their own self they do not 
regard at all as being significant. Does this make sense? Naison Jones

 

 

Dearest Naison

 

You wrote a wonderful point. ** They consider themselves only reflectors of the 
light **i wish people would really and cordially read your pure hearted 
postings.

No one seems to read my postings. I posted so many beautiful things including 
all the Moojan Momen essays on Islam and the Bahai Faith…not one response.

 

A Persian poet says that often when we make a point it is exactly as if a 
concert should play for the deaf or a mirror be brought for the blind…

( بقول شاعر (پیش کر بربط سرای وپیش کور آیینه دار )

 

 

 

A friend of mine wrote this in relation to your *reflectors of light** point 
which I take to heart

 

Commenting on what ‘Abdu’l-Baha has said

"Christ is an Expression of the Divine Reality, the Single Essence and Heavenly 
Entity, which hath no beginning or ending. It has appearance, arising, and 
manifestation and setting in each one of the Cycles."

 

  (Abdu'l-Baha)

 

http://www.paintdrawer.co.uk/david/

 

In considering the Trinity presented in the New Testament, a particularly 
useful analogy to explore is that of the Sun, which itself is employed a number 
of times in the New Testament.

The Sun is the glorious power from which all human life, and nature, is 
sustained, both knowingly and unawares, and is a most perfect and beautiful 
symbol for God.

The sun sheds its life-giving influence upon the world through its rays of 
light, warming and illuminating the earth and its peoples; by these rays, night 
is turned into day, and all work and life is empowered. These life-giving rays 
spreading from the Sun out into the world, are the symbol of the Holy Spirit, 
being the creative flowing of God into the world of existence; also called the 
Word of God: for the Holy Spirit is the direct commanding of God through which 
He says 'Be' and it is.

These rays of light travel into the world by virtue of a pure and stainless 
medium that mediates their spiritual power from the world of God in to the 
world of man. This mediator is Christ, and in the symbol of the sun He is the 
clear open space through which the sunlight of the Holy Spirit travels to the 
world, the windows through which the Spirit enters into the daily homes of 
people's lives. The spiritual mediation of God to mankind is through virtue of 
a perfectly pure and devoted nature wholly devoid of ego, called sinless, 
through which the divine influence may travel to man's world unsullied. Of 
primary importance is the mediation of God to the inner spirit of each 
individual, so that they are revolutionised in spirit, 'a new creation', though 
to all outer worldly eyes no change appears: "Therefore if any man be in 
Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things 
are become new" (2Co 5:17; Gal 6:15). John the Baptist referred to Jesus' 
mediating the Spirit to man as 'baptizing' people with Spirit: "He that sent me 
to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the 
Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with 
the Holy Spirit." (Jn 1:31-33)

The station of mediator of the Holy Spirit, is one of a humble servant 
conveying the glorious Spirit from the Master Fashioner to the world: thus in 
Acts, he is called the Servant of God (e.g. Act 3:13, 3:26, 4:27, 4:30), and 
the same is included more lovingly in the title 'Son of God'. Hebrews depicts 
this humble servitude vividly: "During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he 
offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could 
save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission... he 
learned obedience from what he suffered, and once made perfect... was 
designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek" (Heb 5:7).

Christ's greatness in pure mediation of the Holy Spirit into the world of man, 
is like the greatness and perfection of a window in allowing the sun to shine 
through. It is forgiveable to curse the window as an object in itself, but not 
the light that shines through it. Thus Jesus says: "Whosoever shall speak a 
word against the Son of Man [Jesus], it shall be forgiven him: but unto him 
that blasphemeth against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven" (Lk 12:10) 
- just as you may speak ill of a flut

Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Naison Jones]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
How can you be the return of Jesus without possessing Jesus qualities?
Obviously by return is not meant Jesus actually came back into the world. So
by return is meant Jesus powers his attributes his station his glory...
Consider this. The station of the manifestation is utter selflessness.
Therefore They consider themselves only reflectors of the light. This being
the case It is logical that they claim each is the return of the other. That
is they are refereing to the light within them since their own self they do
not regard at all as being significant. Does this make sense?



On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Naison Jones wrote:

> Yeh but arnt these things all just names for the same thing?
> Mehdi or whatever. It's just a name.
> Not sure what you mean by "Spin", can you explain that?
> thanks
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:
>
>>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>
>>
>>   That's still not a scientific logical test. That's spin. Have you
>> tested any people with this test. What is divine knowledge? When Baha'is use
>> the term it sounds like spin. The term Manifestation predates the Baha'i
>> Faith. There's no such definition in other scriptures, on what a messiah,
>> madhi, qaim, kalki, avatar, maitreya, buddha, saoshyant, shah-bahram, etc
>> is.
>>
>> You're using a retro-active definition and a retro-active revisionist
>> history. Do Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, etc. fit your paradigm despite being
>> designated Manifestations. All Manifestations before the Bab, have been
>> designated Manifestations retroactively. Most Muslims would consider
>> considering Muhammad to be such Ghulat(exaggeration). Ghulat sects were
>> people who viewed Muhammad, Fatima, Ali, Hasan, Husayn, etc. and their
>> descendents/successor to be Manifestations.
>>
>> The Bab and Baha'u'llah changed the definition of  a pre-existent
>> terminology. Just looking at religious history will prove such a definition
>> isn't what Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism,
>> etc. prophesized. Looking retroactively, you could impose such a view on
>> religious history, but such a view actually has no basis in religious
>> history. As well as discrideting people like Confucius and Lao Tzu even
>> though Confucians and Taoists would argue otherwise.
>>
>> 1. Return. They don't use the explicit word return, but Avatar claimanits
>> cliam an avataric lineage. Buddha and Boddhisattva cliamants as well as lama
>> claim a lineage too.
>>
>> 2. Yes, they claim divine knowledge even though some less theistic
>> tradition would use the word divine. Knowledge of various topics is
>> associated with each claimant. The topic vary per each claimant.
>>
>> 3. This one is complicated. Some claimants do go on to found independent
>> religion with their own scriptures while others do the same, but within the
>> framework of an existing religion.
>>
>> I tended to look at Avatar and Buddha claimants recently rather than
>> Manifestation claimants (ie Joseph Emmanuel and Jamshid Mani). There is a
>> special noteworthy mention of Leland Jensen who despite claiming not to be a
>> Manifestation, does claim to be the first two out of three. He claims to be
>> the return of Joshua, Kalki, the knight on a white horse, the Saoshyant,
>> Maitreya (as a bodhisattva-mahasattva while Bahullah is Amitabha ie a
>> buddha), the Madhi, the return of Jesus, etc. A Manifestation of God as this
>> doctrine is linked only to Bayaniism and Bahaiism. He claim to be the Baha'i
>> equivalent of a Mujadid (reformer).
>>
>>  --
>> *From:* Naison Jones 
>> *To:* Baha'i Studies 
>> *Sent:* Tue, December 21, 2010 10:22:43 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel
>>
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>
>> The concept is not that difficult. Do they claim to be the return of the
>> manifestations before them? e.g. Christ Moses Baha'u'llah.
>> Do they claim to posses divine knowledge? Do they bring a new set of laws
>> and book?
>> They must fulfil these things. Now Jesus may not have brought a new book
>> but actually he did because he annulled certain commandments of Moses and
>> reinfoced others.
>> Funny story...
>> Yesterday some Mormans came to my door and tried to teach me and they said
>> yep they have this prophet who they follow whats his face, I cant remember
>> his name and they wanted to invite me to their information night (

Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Naison Jones]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Yeh but arnt these things all just names for the same thing?
Mehdi or whatever. It's just a name.
Not sure what you mean by "Spin", can you explain that?
thanks



On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>   That's still not a scientific logical test. That's spin. Have you tested
> any people with this test. What is divine knowledge? When Baha'is use the
> term it sounds like spin. The term Manifestation predates the Baha'i Faith.
> There's no such definition in other scriptures, on what a messiah, madhi,
> qaim, kalki, avatar, maitreya, buddha, saoshyant, shah-bahram, etc is.
>
> You're using a retro-active definition and a retro-active revisionist
> history. Do Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, etc. fit your paradigm despite being
> designated Manifestations. All Manifestations before the Bab, have been
> designated Manifestations retroactively. Most Muslims would consider
> considering Muhammad to be such Ghulat(exaggeration). Ghulat sects were
> people who viewed Muhammad, Fatima, Ali, Hasan, Husayn, etc. and their
> descendents/successor to be Manifestations.
>
> The Bab and Baha'u'llah changed the definition of  a pre-existent
> terminology. Just looking at religious history will prove such a definition
> isn't what Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism,
> etc. prophesized. Looking retroactively, you could impose such a view on
> religious history, but such a view actually has no basis in religious
> history. As well as discrideting people like Confucius and Lao Tzu even
> though Confucians and Taoists would argue otherwise.
>
> 1. Return. They don't use the explicit word return, but Avatar claimanits
> cliam an avataric lineage. Buddha and Boddhisattva cliamants as well as lama
> claim a lineage too.
>
> 2. Yes, they claim divine knowledge even though some less theistic
> tradition would use the word divine. Knowledge of various topics is
> associated with each claimant. The topic vary per each claimant.
>
> 3. This one is complicated. Some claimants do go on to found independent
> religion with their own scriptures while others do the same, but within the
> framework of an existing religion.
>
> I tended to look at Avatar and Buddha claimants recently rather than
> Manifestation claimants (ie Joseph Emmanuel and Jamshid Mani). There is a
> special noteworthy mention of Leland Jensen who despite claiming not to be a
> Manifestation, does claim to be the first two out of three. He claims to be
> the return of Joshua, Kalki, the knight on a white horse, the Saoshyant,
> Maitreya (as a bodhisattva-mahasattva while Bahullah is Amitabha ie a
> buddha), the Madhi, the return of Jesus, etc. A Manifestation of God as this
> doctrine is linked only to Bayaniism and Bahaiism. He claim to be the Baha'i
> equivalent of a Mujadid (reformer).
>
>  --
> *From:* Naison Jones 
> *To:* Baha'i Studies 
> *Sent:* Tue, December 21, 2010 10:22:43 PM
> *Subject:* Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> The concept is not that difficult. Do they claim to be the return of the
> manifestations before them? e.g. Christ Moses Baha'u'llah.
> Do they claim to posses divine knowledge? Do they bring a new set of laws
> and book?
> They must fulfil these things. Now Jesus may not have brought a new book
> but actually he did because he annulled certain commandments of Moses and
> reinfoced others.
> Funny story...
> Yesterday some Mormans came to my door and tried to teach me and they said
> yep they have this prophet who they follow whats his face, I cant remember
> his name and they wanted to invite me to their information night ( a bit
> like a Bahai does).
> Anyway I said ah so this guy is a prophet does he have divine knowledge and
> she said whats that and i said "He has to know everything". (eg Muhammad
> said the earth revolved around the sun prooving his divine source of
> knowledge despite people not agreeing with him).
> And she said.
> Yes he does have divine knowledge. When he speeks i can feel his words in
> my heart and they touch me.
> P
> This is obviously not divine knowledge! Anyone with Charisma can do this.
> Anyway so they left and i said come back after new years.
>
> One more thing though. A manifestation of God need not prove they are one
> by showing you a sign. If you need a sign it only reflects badly on
> yourself. The main thing is investigate.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 5:39 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:
>
>>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>
>>

Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Stephen Gray]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


That's still not a scientific logical test. That's spin. Have you tested any 
people with this test. What is divine knowledge? When Baha'is use the term it 
sounds like spin. The term Manifestation predates the Baha'i Faith. There's no 
such definition in other scriptures, on what a messiah, madhi, qaim, kalki, 
avatar, maitreya, buddha, saoshyant, shah-bahram, etc is. 



You're using a retro-active definition and a retro-active revisionist history. 
Do Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, etc. fit your paradigm despite being designated 
Manifestations. All Manifestations before the Bab, have been designated 
Manifestations retroactively. Most Muslims would consider considering Muhammad 
to be such Ghulat(exaggeration). Ghulat sects were people who viewed Muhammad, 
Fatima, Ali, Hasan, Husayn, etc. and their descendents/successor to be 
Manifestations. 


The Bab and Baha'u'llah changed the definition of  a pre-existent 
terminology. Just looking at religious history will prove such a definition 
isn't what Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, 
etc. prophesized. Looking retroactively, you could impose such a view on 
religious history, but such a view actually has no basis in religious history. 
As well as discrideting people like Confucius and Lao Tzu even though 
Confucians 
and Taoists would argue otherwise. 


1. Return. They don't use the explicit word return, but Avatar claimanits cliam 
an avataric lineage. Buddha and Boddhisattva cliamants as well as lama claim a 
lineage too. 


2. Yes, they claim divine knowledge even though some less theistic tradition 
would use the word divine. Knowledge of various topics is associated with each 
claimant. The topic vary per each claimant.

3. This one is complicated. Some claimants do go on to found independent 
religion with their own scriptures while others do the same, but within the 
framework of an existing religion. 


I tended to look at Avatar and Buddha claimants recently rather than 
Manifestation claimants (ie Joseph Emmanuel and Jamshid Mani). There is a 
special noteworthy mention of Leland Jensen who despite claiming not to be a 
Manifestation, does claim to be the first two out of three. He claims to be the 
return of Joshua, Kalki, the knight on a white horse, the Saoshyant, Maitreya 
(as a bodhisattva-mahasattva while Bahullah is Amitabha ie a buddha), the 
Madhi, 
the return of Jesus, etc. A Manifestation of God as this doctrine is linked 
only 
to Bayaniism and Bahaiism. He claim to be the Baha'i equivalent of a Mujadid 
(reformer).





From: Naison Jones 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 10:22:43 PM
Subject: Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel


The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The concept is not that difficult. Do they claim to be the return of the 
manifestations before them? e.g. Christ Moses Baha'u'llah.
Do they claim to posses divine knowledge? Do they bring a new set of laws and 
book?
They must fulfil these things. Now Jesus may not have brought a new book but 
actually he did because he annulled certain commandments of Moses and reinfoced 
others.
Funny story...
Yesterday some Mormans came to my door and tried to teach me and they said yep 
they have this prophet who they follow whats his face, I cant remember his name 
and they wanted to invite me to their information night ( a bit like a Bahai 
does).
Anyway I said ah so this guy is a prophet does he have divine knowledge and she 
said whats that and i said "He has to know everything". (eg Muhammad said the 
earth revolved around the sun prooving his divine source of knowledge despite 
people not agreeing with him).
And she said.
Yes he does have divine knowledge. When he speeks i can feel his words in my 
heart and they touch me.
P
This is obviously not divine knowledge! Anyone with Charisma can do this.
Anyway so they left and i said come back after new years.

One more thing though. A manifestation of God need not prove they are one by 
showing you a sign. If you need a sign it only reflects badly on yourself. The 
main thing is investigate.


 
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 5:39 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>What is a Manifestation? A Druze, Ismaili, etc. would recognize that there are 
>Manifestations, but understand the concept differently than a Bayani or a 
>Bahai. 
>The Ismailis have Aga Khan IV.
>
>
>
>
________________
From: Sen & Sonja  
>
>To: Baha'i Studies 
>Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 4:45:45 AM 
>
>Subject: Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel
>
>
>The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>On 19 Dec 2010 at 10:05, Firouz wrote:
>
>> This is the main issue you pointed out. Gilberto and indeed no Muslim
>> could ever accept that there coul

Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Stephen Gray]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Ahmadiyya would qualify agian two out of three:

1.Claims to be the return of Jesus.
2.Produced many writings and prophecies





From: Stephen Gray 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 12:26:09 PM
Subject: Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel


The Baha'i Studies Listserv
That's still not a scientific logical test. That's spin. Have you tested any 
people with this test. What is divine knowledge? When Baha'is use the term it 
sounds like spin. The term Manifestation predates the Baha'i Faith. There's no 
such definition in other scriptures, on what a messiah, madhi, qaim, kalki, 
avatar, maitreya, buddha, saoshyant, shah-bahram, etc is. 


You're using a retro-active definition and a retro-active revisionist history. 
Do Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, etc. fit your paradigm despite being designated 
Manifestations. All Manifestations before the Bab, have been designated 
Manifestations retroactively. Most Muslims would consider considering Muhammad 
to be such Ghulat(exaggeration). Ghulat sects were people who viewed Muhammad, 
Fatima, Ali, Hasan, Husayn, etc. and their descendents/successor to be 
Manifestations. 


The Bab and Baha'u'llah changed the definition of  a pre-existent 
terminology. Just looking at religious history will prove such a definition 
isn't what Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, 
etc. prophesized. Looking retroactively, you could impose such a view on 
religious history, but such a view actually has no basis in religious history. 
As well as discrideting people like Confucius and Lao Tzu even though 
Confucians 
and Taoists would argue otherwise. 


1. Return. They don't use the explicit word return, but Avatar claimanits cliam 
an avataric lineage. Buddha and Boddhisattva cliamants as well as lama claim a 
lineage too. 


2. Yes, they claim divine knowledge even though some less theistic tradition 
would use the word divine. Knowledge of various topics is associated with each 
claimant. The topic vary per each claimant.

3. This one is complicated. Some claimants do go on to found independent 
religion with their own scriptures while others do the same, but within the 
framework of an existing religion. 


I tended to look at Avatar and Buddha claimants recently rather than 
Manifestation claimants (ie Joseph Emmanuel and Jamshid Mani). There is a 
special noteworthy mention of Leland Jensen who despite claiming not to be a 
Manifestation, does claim to be the first two out of three. He claims to be the 
return of Joshua, Kalki, the knight on a white horse, the Saoshyant, Maitreya 
(as a bodhisattva-mahasattva while Bahullah is Amitabha ie a buddha), the 
Madhi, 
the return of Jesus, etc. A Manifestation of God as this doctrine is linked 
only 
to Bayaniism and Bahaiism. 






From: Naison Jones 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 10:22:43 PM
Subject: Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel


The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The concept is not that difficult. Do they claim to be the return of the 
manifestations before them? e.g. Christ Moses Baha'u'llah.
Do they claim to posses divine knowledge? Do they bring a new set of laws and 
book?
They must fulfil these things. Now Jesus may not have brought a new book but 
actually he did because he annulled certain commandments of Moses and reinfoced 
others.
Funny story...
Yesterday some Mormans came to my door and tried to teach me and they said yep 
they have this prophet who they follow whats his face, I cant remember his name 
and they wanted to invite me to their information night ( a bit like a Bahai 
does).
Anyway I said ah so this guy is a prophet does he have divine knowledge and she 
said whats that and i said "He has to know everything". (eg Muhammad said the 
earth revolved around the sun prooving his divine source of knowledge despite 
people not agreeing with him).
And she said.
Yes he does have divine knowledge. When he speeks i can feel his words in my 
heart and they touch me.
P
This is obviously not divine knowledge! Anyone with Charisma can do this.
Anyway so they left and i said come back after new years.

One more thing though. A manifestation of God need not prove they are one by 
showing you a sign. If you need a sign it only reflects badly on yourself. The 
main thing is investigate.


 
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 5:39 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>What is a Manifestation? A Druze, Ismaili, etc. would recognize that there are 
>Manifestations, but understand the concept differently than a Bayani or a 
>Bahai. 
>The Ismailis have Aga Khan IV.
>
>
>
>
________________
From: Sen & Sonja  
>
>To: Baha'i Studies 
>Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 4:45

Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Stephen Gray]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
That's still not a scientific logical test. That's spin. Have you tested any 
people with this test. What is divine knowledge? When Baha'is use the term it 
sounds like spin. The term Manifestation predates the Baha'i Faith. There's no 
such definition in other scriptures, on what a messiah, madhi, qaim, kalki, 
avatar, maitreya, buddha, saoshyant, shah-bahram, etc is. 


You're using a retro-active definition and a retro-active revisionist history. 
Do Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, etc. fit your paradigm despite being designated 
Manifestations. All Manifestations before the Bab, have been designated 
Manifestations retroactively. Most Muslims would consider considering Muhammad 
to be such Ghulat(exaggeration). Ghulat sects were people who viewed Muhammad, 
Fatima, Ali, Hasan, Husayn, etc. and their descendents/successor to be 
Manifestations. 


The Bab and Baha'u'llah changed the definition of  a pre-existent 
terminology. Just looking at religious history will prove such a definition 
isn't what Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, 
etc. prophesized. Looking retroactively, you could impose such a view on 
religious history, but such a view actually has no basis in religious history. 
As well as discrideting people like Confucius and Lao Tzu even though 
Confucians 
and Taoists would argue otherwise. 


1. Return. They don't use the explicit word return, but Avatar claimanits cliam 
an avataric lineage. Buddha and Boddhisattva cliamants as well as lama claim a 
lineage too. 


2. Yes, they claim divine knowledge even though some less theistic tradition 
would use the word divine. Knowledge of various topics is associated with each 
claimant. The topic vary per each claimant.

3. This one is complicated. Some claimants do go on to found independent 
religion with their own scriptures while others do the same, but within the 
framework of an existing religion. 


I tended to look at Avatar and Buddha claimants recently rather than 
Manifestation claimants (ie Joseph Emmanuel and Jamshid Mani). There is a 
special noteworthy mention of Leland Jensen who despite claiming not to be a 
Manifestation, does claim to be the first two out of three. He claims to be the 
return of Joshua, Kalki, the knight on a white horse, the Saoshyant, Maitreya 
(as a bodhisattva-mahasattva while Bahullah is Amitabha ie a buddha), the 
Madhi, 
the return of Jesus, etc. A Manifestation of God as this doctrine is linked 
only 
to Bayaniism and Bahaiism. 






From: Naison Jones 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 10:22:43 PM
Subject: Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel


The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The concept is not that difficult. Do they claim to be the return of the 
manifestations before them? e.g. Christ Moses Baha'u'llah.
Do they claim to posses divine knowledge? Do they bring a new set of laws and 
book?
They must fulfil these things. Now Jesus may not have brought a new book but 
actually he did because he annulled certain commandments of Moses and reinfoced 
others.
Funny story...
Yesterday some Mormans came to my door and tried to teach me and they said yep 
they have this prophet who they follow whats his face, I cant remember his name 
and they wanted to invite me to their information night ( a bit like a Bahai 
does).
Anyway I said ah so this guy is a prophet does he have divine knowledge and she 
said whats that and i said "He has to know everything". (eg Muhammad said the 
earth revolved around the sun prooving his divine source of knowledge despite 
people not agreeing with him).
And she said.
Yes he does have divine knowledge. When he speeks i can feel his words in my 
heart and they touch me.
P
This is obviously not divine knowledge! Anyone with Charisma can do this.
Anyway so they left and i said come back after new years.

One more thing though. A manifestation of God need not prove they are one by 
showing you a sign. If you need a sign it only reflects badly on yourself. The 
main thing is investigate.


 
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 5:39 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>What is a Manifestation? A Druze, Ismaili, etc. would recognize that there are 
>Manifestations, but understand the concept differently than a Bayani or a 
>Bahai. 
>The Ismailis have Aga Khan IV.
>
>
>
>
____________
From: Sen & Sonja  
>
>To: Baha'i Studies 
>Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 4:45:45 AM 
>
>Subject: Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel
>
>
>The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>On 19 Dec 2010 at 10:05, Firouz wrote:
>
>> This is the main issue you pointed out. Gilberto and indeed no Muslim
>> could ever accept that there could be a Messenger after Prophet
>> Muhammad, 
>
>And yet, yo

Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Sen & Sonja]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 21 Dec 2010 at 22:29, Gilberto Simpson wrote:

> And maybe even on a popular level there may be a certain
> amount of conflict and tension between the two communities. But if you
> look to some of the most respected voices speak about  the other side,
> they still recognize one another as Muslims.

You and Firouz are both half right, because the picture is not 
symetrical. Shiah marriage law, for example, allows a Shiah man to 
marry a Sunni woman, but does not allow a Shiah woman to marry a 
Sunni man. That is Kuf' (marrying below onself). So for marriage 
purposes, Sunni are outside Islam, or a boundary case. Khomeini 
however adopted a modernising position, in his Clarifications, saying 
only that a Moslem woman may not marry a non-Moslem, and that a 
Moslem man may not marry an infidel woman in permanent marriage. That 
implicitly includes Sunnis in the fold, and more surprisingly, puts 
the same restriction on men as on women. 

Sunni marriage law treats Shiah like any other Muslims. 

So from the Sunni point of view, the differences are merely legal or 
about the details of doctrine, but from the Shiah point of view they 
are essential. It may be that Khomeini's view will prevail (I hope 
so), but I don't have a crystal ball 

Sen
 
--
-- 
Sen McGlinn   http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com 

The influence of individual souls is and always will be beloved.  For 
the influence 
of each soul is its fruit, and a soul without influence is considered 
a tree without 
fruit in the most great realm.  Speak forth for the sake of God, and 
spread the 
cause for his sake.  Do not look at whether others accept or deny, 
but rather at 
the service you are commanded to perform by God. 

Baha'u'llah -- Tablet of the Son -- http://www-
personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htm



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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Naison Jones]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The concept is not that difficult. Do they claim to be the return of the
manifestations before them? e.g. Christ Moses Baha'u'llah.
Do they claim to posses divine knowledge? Do they bring a new set of laws
and book?
They must fulfil these things. Now Jesus may not have brought a new book but
actually he did because he annulled certain commandments of Moses and
reinfoced others.
Funny story...
Yesterday some Mormans came to my door and tried to teach me and they said
yep they have this prophet who they follow whats his face, I cant remember
his name and they wanted to invite me to their information night ( a bit
like a Bahai does).
Anyway I said ah so this guy is a prophet does he have divine knowledge and
she said whats that and i said "He has to know everything". (eg Muhammad
said the earth revolved around the sun prooving his divine source of
knowledge despite people not agreeing with him).
And she said.
Yes he does have divine knowledge. When he speeks i can feel his words in my
heart and they touch me.
P
This is obviously not divine knowledge! Anyone with Charisma can do this.
Anyway so they left and i said come back after new years.

One more thing though. A manifestation of God need not prove they are one by
showing you a sign. If you need a sign it only reflects badly on yourself.
The main thing is investigate.



On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 5:39 AM, Stephen Gray  wrote:

>  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>  What is a Manifestation? A Druze, Ismaili, etc. would recognize that
> there are Manifestations, but understand the concept differently than a
> Bayani or a Bahai. The Ismailis have Aga Khan IV.
>
>  --
> *From:* Sen & Sonja 
>
> *To:* Baha'i Studies 
> *Sent:* Sun, December 19, 2010 4:45:45 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel
>
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> On 19 Dec 2010 at 10:05, Firouz wrote:
>
> > This is the main issue you pointed out. Gilberto and indeed no Muslim
> > could ever accept that there could be a Messenger after Prophet
> > Muhammad,
>
> And yet, you did make that step. You should know personally, and you
> can see historically, that many Muslims have made that step. Beware
> of essentialisms (which is to say, prejudices) that lay down what a
> whole class of people "can never do."
>
> The "recognition" (irfan)  of a messenger of God (whether new, or
> already socially accepted) requires something more than knowledge of
> certain texts, or the ability to manipulate the codes of meaning to
> come up with the "right" answer. It involves a certain personal
> capacity which cannot be aquired simply by taking over someone else's
> knowledge and arguments, but which can be developed internally. This
> capacity is not limited to people of any one race or religion or era,
> but it is very far from universal. Irfan is and has always been the
> prize for those who strive for it
>
> Sen
>
>
> --
> --
> Sen McGlinn  http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com
>
> Happy are those who spend their days in gaining knowledge, in
> discovering the secrets of nature, and in penetrating the subtleties
> of
> pure truth! Woe to those who are contented with ignorance, whose
> hearts
> are gladdened by thoughtless imitation, ... who have wasted their
> lives!"(~Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions p.137)
>
> --
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __
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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Firouz]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Gilberto,

You're correct and I agree with you about the differences in beliefs of 
Sunnis and Shias. And I am sure most educated Muslims do agree with you 
as well.


Unfortunately in most middle eastern countries and Indian sub-continent, 
it is totally different. What average people have come to believe since 
childhood is very different than those academic books. That is why we 
see how Shias and Sunnis kill each other in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, 
Afghanistan, and probably some other countries. Just last week a bomb 
exploded in a mosque in a city in south eastern Iran, some bombs 
exploded in Iraq. These are more than politics, many of Sunnis and Shias 
in these regions have come to believe what they have been told, right or 
wrong. Many Sunni/Shias in these regions have developed a hatred towards 
each other. Yes, I know that is not Islam, but that is some facts and 
beliefs among these Muslims.


regards,
Firouz

On 22/12/2010 10:29 AM, Gilberto Simpson wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Sunnis and Shias obviously disagree with one another on specific
points. And maybe even on a popular level there may be a certain
amount of conflict and tension between the two communities. But if you
look to some of the most respected voices speak about  the other side,
they still recognize one another as Muslims.

For example Al-Azhar's fatwa on the Shias:
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter1b/14.html#text

or the Deobandi fatwa on whether Shias are non-Muslims:
http://www.islamopediaonline.org/fatwa/darul-ifta-darul-uloom-deoband-responds-question-are-all-shia-considered-non-muslims

(Note, The Deoband seminary is in India and Al-Azhar is in Egypt,
which I'm pretty sure is in the Middle East),

For a more thorough discussion of the topic from a classical
perspective  you could look at "On the Boundaries of theological
tolerance in Islam" which was annotated and translated by Sherman A.
Jackson from a much earlier work by Abu Hamid al-Ghazali. (Who was
Persian, also not American). He gives a very inclusive notion of who
can be "Muslim" which definitely includes Shias.


On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 9:06 PM, Firouz  wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Susan,

I think there is a big difference between the average Muslims in USA and in
the Middle East/Indian sub-continent in their views about their own
religions and other sects of Islam. I am not a historian so I do not exactly
know the origin of division between Shias and Sunnis and how it was
politicized. What I see today in ME/Pakistan their understanding of Islam
has become sort of a belief for majority (not all of course) that the other
sects of Islam have broken the covenant of Prophet Muhammad.

Except "covenant breaker" is more a Bahai concept than a Muslim one.

For Muslims the question boils down to: What is the absolute minimum
one has to believe in order to be "Muslim"? And in capsule form, the
basic answer is the shahadah: "There is no god but God. Muhammad is
prophet/messenger of God". including certain principles which
logically flow from it.(like belief in the Quran).

But since the successorship of Abu Bakr is not one of those basic
principles, merely believing that Ali should have been the successor
is not enough to take a person out of Islam.

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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Sunnis and Shias obviously disagree with one another on specific
points. And maybe even on a popular level there may be a certain
amount of conflict and tension between the two communities. But if you
look to some of the most respected voices speak about  the other side,
they still recognize one another as Muslims.

For example Al-Azhar's fatwa on the Shias:
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter1b/14.html#text

or the Deobandi fatwa on whether Shias are non-Muslims:
http://www.islamopediaonline.org/fatwa/darul-ifta-darul-uloom-deoband-responds-question-are-all-shia-considered-non-muslims

(Note, The Deoband seminary is in India and Al-Azhar is in Egypt,
which I'm pretty sure is in the Middle East),

For a more thorough discussion of the topic from a classical
perspective  you could look at "On the Boundaries of theological
tolerance in Islam" which was annotated and translated by Sherman A.
Jackson from a much earlier work by Abu Hamid al-Ghazali. (Who was
Persian, also not American). He gives a very inclusive notion of who
can be "Muslim" which definitely includes Shias.


On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 9:06 PM, Firouz  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Dear Susan,
>
> I think there is a big difference between the average Muslims in USA and in
> the Middle East/Indian sub-continent in their views about their own
> religions and other sects of Islam. I am not a historian so I do not exactly
> know the origin of division between Shias and Sunnis and how it was
> politicized. What I see today in ME/Pakistan their understanding of Islam
> has become sort of a belief for majority (not all of course) that the other
> sects of Islam have broken the covenant of Prophet Muhammad.

Except "covenant breaker" is more a Bahai concept than a Muslim one.

For Muslims the question boils down to: What is the absolute minimum
one has to believe in order to be "Muslim"? And in capsule form, the
basic answer is the shahadah: "There is no god but God. Muhammad is
prophet/messenger of God". including certain principles which
logically flow from it.(like belief in the Quran).

But since the successorship of Abu Bakr is not one of those basic
principles, merely believing that Ali should have been the successor
is not enough to take a person out of Islam.

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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Firouz]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Susan,

I think there is a big difference between the average Muslims in USA and 
in the Middle East/Indian sub-continent in their views about their own 
religions and other sects of Islam. I am not a historian so I do not 
exactly know the origin of division between Shias and Sunnis and how it 
was politicized. What I see today in ME/Pakistan their understanding of 
Islam has become sort of a belief for majority (not all of course) that 
the other sects of Islam have broken the covenant of Prophet Muhammad. 
As a student in Iran (this is during Shah's time of course) we had to 
study about Islam, and in our religious classes we were told that Sunnis 
broke the covenant by not accepting Imam Ali as His immediate successor. 
I am sure the Sunnis (specially the Wahabis) have been taught similar 
things about Shias and how they are not real Muslims. So many Muslims 
have come to believe these non-sense. So you see, there is big 
difference between Muslims of Muslim countries and Muslims in countries 
where Islam is a minority religion.


Best regards,
Firouz


On 22/12/2010 1:26 AM, Susan Maneck wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Living in the South I can tell you there are far too many Christians
that don't consider Catholics "Christian" but I wouldn't make the
generalization about Christianity that you made about Islam, Firouz.
Most Sunnis I talk to consider the difference between Shi'ites and
Sunnis to be "political" not religious. The same would not be said for
the Wahhabi-types of course. The make the same accusations against
Shi'ites that Shi'tes make against Baha'is:
http://www.cesnur.org/2009/slc_maneck.htm

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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Stephen Gray]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
What is a Manifestation? A Druze, Ismaili, etc. would recognize that there are 
Manifestations, but understand the concept differently than a Bayani or a 
Bahai. 
The Ismailis have Aga Khan IV.





From: Sen & Sonja 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 4:45:45 AM
Subject: Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 19 Dec 2010 at 10:05, Firouz wrote:

> This is the main issue you pointed out. Gilberto and indeed no Muslim
> could ever accept that there could be a Messenger after Prophet
> Muhammad, 

And yet, you did make that step. You should know personally, and you 
can see historically, that many Muslims have made that step. Beware 
of essentialisms (which is to say, prejudices) that lay down what a 
whole class of people "can never do." 

The "recognition" (irfan)  of a messenger of God (whether new, or 
already socially accepted) requires something more than knowledge of 
certain texts, or the ability to manipulate the codes of meaning to 
come up with the "right" answer. It involves a certain personal 
capacity which cannot be aquired simply by taking over someone else's 
knowledge and arguments, but which can be developed internally. This 
capacity is not limited to people of any one race or religion or era, 
but it is very far from universal. Irfan is and has always been the 
prize for those who strive for it

Sen


--
--        
Sen McGlinn      http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com

Happy are those who spend their days in gaining knowledge, in 
discovering the secrets of nature, and in penetrating the subtleties 
of
pure truth! Woe to those who are contented with ignorance, whose 
hearts
are gladdened by thoughtless imitation, ... who have wasted their
lives!"(~Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions p.137)

--
-- 






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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Stephen Gray]

 yoga 
teacher P.R. Sarkar in India, who founded Ananda Marga, and while in this 
organization, Emmanuel was given the spiritual name "Maitreya." This has been 
cited as further evidence by the Mission of Maitreya that Joseph Emmanuel is 
the 
true Maitreya.The discussion has tended to focus only on Westerners, but what 
about Hindus and Buddhists?





From: Naison Jones 
To: Baha'i Studies 
Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 9:32:55 PM
Subject: Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel


The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 
A seeker must put aside all love and hate. Love because what he loves can blind 
him to finding the beloved in another form because he is too attached to the 
old 
form.
if I love the symbol of the cross and am so in love with Jesus dying on the 
cross and his self-less sacrifice I will not as easily be able to recognise 
Baha'u'llah he did not die on the cross.
If similarly I am in love with Muhammad in love with the idea of this desert 
nomab guiding people and declaring holy war and winning these battles or 
whatever else pertains to this revelation how can I recognise one who says 
"Holy 
war is abolished"?
Love can be a veil as much as hate.
A true seeker puts aside his love and hate and seeks only for the reality in 
all 
things.
And since the reality of the prophets is the same, one who is detached from all 
else save him should be able to come upon the revelation "Swift as a twinkling 
of the eye" (that is from ruhi book 2 I think).
Good luck.


 
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 12:18 AM, Gilberto Simpson  
wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Khazeh  wrote:
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
>> Again Firouz said
>>>  And we don't think non-Baha'is go to hell
>
>> Whereupon Gilberto replied:
>
>> That's not exactly true. Isn't recognizing the Manifestation for the current
>> age seen as a major obligation according to the Bahá’ís?
>
>> From The summons of the Lord of Hosts
>>
>> Suriy-i-Haykal
>> ***It is even as ye witness in the present day: those who have disbelieved
>> in God and joined partners with Him cling to a single one of Our Names, and
>> are debarred from recognizing Him Who is the Creator of all Names. We
>> testify that such men are of a truth amongst the people of the Fire.**
>>
>> Firouz can reply for himself of course and others so much better equipped
>> than this lowly one can engage in deep and spiritual conversation but I wish
>> to make two points as I always admire Gilberto’s mind and logic.
>>
>> Firstly I will mention the second point above re the quote from the Tablet
>> revealed by Baha’u’llah in the Haykal.
>>
>> Please Gilberto.
>>
>> It can be read differently.
>>
>> Baha’u’llah is here emphasizing the truth that “clinging to one name” being
>> attached to one name” “idolizing one name” to the detriment of realizing
>> that He Possesses ALL Names (= > All Revelations the One Common revelation),
>>  THAT is the start of going away from the truth, becoming negative, turning
>> away from the entirety and wholeness of Divine Revelations and becoming
>> engrossed and entrapped by shirk which is hell itself.
>>
>
>If I'm understanding you properly, I think that's a beautiful way to
>think of things. But would you be willing to say that people in the
>present day can "cling" to Bahaullah in a negative sense in the
>present day ? Can someone be a member of a particular faith without
>believing in Bahaullah without being guilty of "clinging" to their old
>faith?
>
>Or to explain with an example on the other side.. there is a blog
>which I like reading from time to time called Inspirations and
>Creative Thoughts.
>http://www.mysticsaint.info/
>
>From what I can tell, the author is basically Muslim, from a Muslim
>family, who follows the Shadhili tariqat and believes that Muhammad is
>the last prophet. But he follows Islam in a really open-hearted way
>and values the truth wherever it appears (including the Bahai
>writings). As far as I can tell, he doesn't consider the Bab or
>Bahaullah as Manifestations or prophets, but he has an appreication of
>works like the Seven Valleys. Would you consider such a person to be
>"clinging"?
>
>
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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Susan Maneck]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think you make a valid point, Gilberto.

On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Gilberto Simpson
 wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> I guess what I would suggest is that if the reality underneath the
> names is really the same, then the names don't matter at all.
> (including the name Bahaullah). The only thing that matters is getting
> access to that reality.  And so if we are really talking about the
> unchanging Faith of God as being the important thing, then that should
> be accessible from the best parts of the Jewish tradition, or the best
> parts of the Christian tradition, or the best parts of Islamic
> tradition etc. And that if you "cling" to Bahaullah its possible to
> not see the truths which non-Bahais may already have.
>
> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Naison Jones  wrote:
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>
>>
>> A seeker must put aside all love and hate. Love because what he loves can
>> blind him to finding the beloved in another form because he is too attached
>> to the old form.
>> if I love the symbol of the cross and am so in love with Jesus dying on the
>> cross and his self-less sacrifice I will not as easily be able to recognise
>> Baha'u'llah he did not die on the cross.
>> If similarly I am in love with Muhammad in love with the idea of this desert
>> nomab guiding people and declaring holy war and winning these battles or
>> whatever else pertains to this revelation how can I recognise one who says
>> "Holy war is abolished"?
>> Love can be a veil as much as hate.
>> A true seeker puts aside his love and hate and seeks only for the reality in
>> all things.
>> And since the reality of the prophets is the same, one who is detached from
>> all else save him should be able to come upon the revelation "Swift as a
>> twinkling of the eye" (that is from ruhi book 2 I think).
>> Good luck.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 12:18 AM, Gilberto Simpson
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Khazeh  wrote:
>>> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>>
>>> > Again Firouz said
>>> >>  And we don't think non-Baha'is go to hell
>>>
>>> > Whereupon Gilberto replied:
>>>
>>> > That's not exactly true. Isn't recognizing the Manifestation for the
>>> > current
>>> > age seen as a major obligation according to the Bahá’ís?
>>>
>>> > From The summons of the Lord of Hosts
>>> >
>>> > Suriy-i-Haykal
>>> > ***It is even as ye witness in the present day: those who have
>>> > disbelieved
>>> > in God and joined partners with Him cling to a single one of Our Names,
>>> > and
>>> > are debarred from recognizing Him Who is the Creator of all Names. We
>>> > testify that such men are of a truth amongst the people of the Fire.**
>>> >
>>> > Firouz can reply for himself of course and others so much better
>>> > equipped
>>> > than this lowly one can engage in deep and spiritual conversation but I
>>> > wish
>>> > to make two points as I always admire Gilberto’s mind and logic.
>>> >
>>> > Firstly I will mention the second point above re the quote from the
>>> > Tablet
>>> > revealed by Baha’u’llah in the Haykal.
>>> >
>>> > Please Gilberto.
>>> >
>>> > It can be read differently.
>>> >
>>> > Baha’u’llah is here emphasizing the truth that “clinging to one name”
>>> > being
>>> > attached to one name” “idolizing one name” to the detriment of realizing
>>> > that He Possesses ALL Names (= > All Revelations the One Common
>>> > revelation),
>>> >  THAT is the start of going away from the truth, becoming negative,
>>> > turning
>>> > away from the entirety and wholeness of Divine Revelations and becoming
>>> > engrossed and entrapped by shirk which is hell itself.
>>> >
>>>
>>> If I'm understanding you properly, I think that's a beautiful way to
>>> think of things. But would you be willing to say that people in the
>>> present day can "cling" to Bahaullah in a negative sense in the
>>> present day ? Can someone be a member of a particular faith without
>>> believing in Bahaullah without being guilty of "clinging" to their old
>>> faith?
>>>
>>> Or to explain with an example on the other side.. there is a blog
>>> which I like reading from time to time called Inspirations and
>>> Creative Thoughts.
>>> http://www.mysticsaint.info/
>>>
>>> From what I can tell, the author is basically Muslim, from a Muslim
>>> family, who follows the Shadhili tariqat and believes that Muhammad is
>>> the last prophet. But he follows Islam in a really open-hearted way
>>> and values the truth wherever it appears (including the Bahai
>>> writings). As far as I can tell, he doesn't consider the Bab or
>>> Bahaullah as Manifestations or prophets, but he has an appreication of
>>> works like the Seven Valleys. Would you consider such a person to be
>>> "clinging"?
>>>
>>> __
>>> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:naistrada...@gmail.com
>>> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
>>> mailto:leave-547821-932.41cdf54

Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Susan Maneck]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Living in the South I can tell you there are far too many Christians
that don't consider Catholics "Christian" but I wouldn't make the
generalization about Christianity that you made about Islam, Firouz.
Most Sunnis I talk to consider the difference between Shi'ites and
Sunnis to be "political" not religious. The same would not be said for
the Wahhabi-types of course. The make the same accusations against
Shi'ites that Shi'tes make against Baha'is:
http://www.cesnur.org/2009/slc_maneck.htm

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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Susan Maneck]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Is it possible some of These hadiths were made by muslims who just never 
> wanted to see Islam succeeded by a new religion?

Dear Naison,

I think Islam had to come up with something like this in order to
survive. I've read some academic articles (which alas I cannot locate
now) which suggest that at least some of these ahadith were fabricated
during the Riddah Wars when every tribal shaman was imagining himself
to be a messenger of God. Islam would have been completely destroyed
has this situation continued.

warmest, Susan

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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I guess what I would suggest is that if the reality underneath the
names is really the same, then the names don't matter at all.
(including the name Bahaullah). The only thing that matters is getting
access to that reality.  And so if we are really talking about the
unchanging Faith of God as being the important thing, then that should
be accessible from the best parts of the Jewish tradition, or the best
parts of the Christian tradition, or the best parts of Islamic
tradition etc. And that if you "cling" to Bahaullah its possible to
not see the truths which non-Bahais may already have.

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Naison Jones  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
>
> A seeker must put aside all love and hate. Love because what he loves can
> blind him to finding the beloved in another form because he is too attached
> to the old form.
> if I love the symbol of the cross and am so in love with Jesus dying on the
> cross and his self-less sacrifice I will not as easily be able to recognise
> Baha'u'llah he did not die on the cross.
> If similarly I am in love with Muhammad in love with the idea of this desert
> nomab guiding people and declaring holy war and winning these battles or
> whatever else pertains to this revelation how can I recognise one who says
> "Holy war is abolished"?
> Love can be a veil as much as hate.
> A true seeker puts aside his love and hate and seeks only for the reality in
> all things.
> And since the reality of the prophets is the same, one who is detached from
> all else save him should be able to come upon the revelation "Swift as a
> twinkling of the eye" (that is from ruhi book 2 I think).
> Good luck.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 12:18 AM, Gilberto Simpson
>  wrote:
>>
>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Khazeh  wrote:
>> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>>
>> > Again Firouz said
>> >>  And we don't think non-Baha'is go to hell
>>
>> > Whereupon Gilberto replied:
>>
>> > That's not exactly true. Isn't recognizing the Manifestation for the
>> > current
>> > age seen as a major obligation according to the Bahá’ís?
>>
>> > From The summons of the Lord of Hosts
>> >
>> > Suriy-i-Haykal
>> > ***It is even as ye witness in the present day: those who have
>> > disbelieved
>> > in God and joined partners with Him cling to a single one of Our Names,
>> > and
>> > are debarred from recognizing Him Who is the Creator of all Names. We
>> > testify that such men are of a truth amongst the people of the Fire.**
>> >
>> > Firouz can reply for himself of course and others so much better
>> > equipped
>> > than this lowly one can engage in deep and spiritual conversation but I
>> > wish
>> > to make two points as I always admire Gilberto’s mind and logic.
>> >
>> > Firstly I will mention the second point above re the quote from the
>> > Tablet
>> > revealed by Baha’u’llah in the Haykal.
>> >
>> > Please Gilberto.
>> >
>> > It can be read differently.
>> >
>> > Baha’u’llah is here emphasizing the truth that “clinging to one name”
>> > being
>> > attached to one name” “idolizing one name” to the detriment of realizing
>> > that He Possesses ALL Names (= > All Revelations the One Common
>> > revelation),
>> >  THAT is the start of going away from the truth, becoming negative,
>> > turning
>> > away from the entirety and wholeness of Divine Revelations and becoming
>> > engrossed and entrapped by shirk which is hell itself.
>> >
>>
>> If I'm understanding you properly, I think that's a beautiful way to
>> think of things. But would you be willing to say that people in the
>> present day can "cling" to Bahaullah in a negative sense in the
>> present day ? Can someone be a member of a particular faith without
>> believing in Bahaullah without being guilty of "clinging" to their old
>> faith?
>>
>> Or to explain with an example on the other side.. there is a blog
>> which I like reading from time to time called Inspirations and
>> Creative Thoughts.
>> http://www.mysticsaint.info/
>>
>> From what I can tell, the author is basically Muslim, from a Muslim
>> family, who follows the Shadhili tariqat and believes that Muhammad is
>> the last prophet. But he follows Islam in a really open-hearted way
>> and values the truth wherever it appears (including the Bahai
>> writings). As far as I can tell, he doesn't consider the Bab or
>> Bahaullah as Manifestations or prophets, but he has an appreication of
>> works like the Seven Valleys. Would you consider such a person to be
>> "clinging"?
>>
>> __
>> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:naistrada...@gmail.com
>> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
>> mailto:leave-547821-932.41cdf54d4f0ecb51bfad2c42bd979...@list.jccc.edu
>> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
>> ly...@list.jccc.edu
>> Or subscribe:
>> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
>> Baha'i Studies is available through th

Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Naison Jones]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
A seeker must put aside all love and hate. Love because what he loves can
blind him to finding the beloved in another form because he is too attached
to the old form.
if I love the symbol of the cross and am so in love with Jesus dying on the
cross and his self-less sacrifice I will not as easily be able to recognise
Baha'u'llah he did not die on the cross.
If similarly I am in love with Muhammad in love with the idea of this desert
nomab guiding people and declaring holy war and winning these battles or
whatever else pertains to this revelation how can I recognise one who says
"Holy war is abolished"?
Love can be a veil as much as hate.
A true seeker puts aside his love and hate and seeks only for the reality in
all things.
And since the reality of the prophets is the same, one who is detached from
all else save him should be able to come upon the revelation "Swift as a
twinkling of the eye" (that is from ruhi book 2 I think).
Good luck.



On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 12:18 AM, Gilberto Simpson <
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Khazeh  wrote:
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> > Again Firouz said
> >>  And we don't think non-Baha'is go to hell
>
> > Whereupon Gilberto replied:
>
> > That's not exactly true. Isn't recognizing the Manifestation for the
> current
> > age seen as a major obligation according to the Bahá’ís?
>
> > From The summons of the Lord of Hosts
> >
> > Suriy-i-Haykal
> > ***It is even as ye witness in the present day: those who have
> disbelieved
> > in God and joined partners with Him cling to a single one of Our Names,
> and
> > are debarred from recognizing Him Who is the Creator of all Names. We
> > testify that such men are of a truth amongst the people of the Fire.**
> >
> > Firouz can reply for himself of course and others so much better equipped
> > than this lowly one can engage in deep and spiritual conversation but I
> wish
> > to make two points as I always admire Gilberto’s mind and logic.
> >
> > Firstly I will mention the second point above re the quote from the
> Tablet
> > revealed by Baha’u’llah in the Haykal.
> >
> > Please Gilberto.
> >
> > It can be read differently.
> >
> > Baha’u’llah is here emphasizing the truth that “clinging to one name”
> being
> > attached to one name” “idolizing one name” to the detriment of realizing
> > that He Possesses ALL Names (= > All Revelations the One Common
> revelation),
> >  THAT is the start of going away from the truth, becoming negative,
> turning
> > away from the entirety and wholeness of Divine Revelations and becoming
> > engrossed and entrapped by shirk which is hell itself.
> >
>
> If I'm understanding you properly, I think that's a beautiful way to
> think of things. But would you be willing to say that people in the
> present day can "cling" to Bahaullah in a negative sense in the
> present day ? Can someone be a member of a particular faith without
> believing in Bahaullah without being guilty of "clinging" to their old
> faith?
>
> Or to explain with an example on the other side.. there is a blog
> which I like reading from time to time called Inspirations and
> Creative Thoughts.
> http://www.mysticsaint.info/
>
> From what I can tell, the author is basically Muslim, from a Muslim
> family, who follows the Shadhili tariqat and believes that Muhammad is
> the last prophet. But he follows Islam in a really open-hearted way
> and values the truth wherever it appears (including the Bahai
> writings). As far as I can tell, he doesn't consider the Bab or
> Bahaullah as Manifestations or prophets, but he has an appreication of
> works like the Seven Valleys. Would you consider such a person to be
> "clinging"?
>
> __
> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:naistrada...@gmail.com
> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:
> leave-547821-932.41cdf54d4f0ecb51bfad2c42bd979...@list.jccc.edu
>  Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
> ly...@list.jccc.edu
> Or subscribe:
> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
> Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Khazeh  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv

> Again Firouz said
>>  And we don't think non-Baha'is go to hell

> Whereupon Gilberto replied:

> That's not exactly true. Isn't recognizing the Manifestation for the current
> age seen as a major obligation according to the Bahá’ís?

> From The summons of the Lord of Hosts
>
> Suriy-i-Haykal
> ***It is even as ye witness in the present day: those who have disbelieved
> in God and joined partners with Him cling to a single one of Our Names, and
> are debarred from recognizing Him Who is the Creator of all Names. We
> testify that such men are of a truth amongst the people of the Fire.**
>
> Firouz can reply for himself of course and others so much better equipped
> than this lowly one can engage in deep and spiritual conversation but I wish
> to make two points as I always admire Gilberto’s mind and logic.
>
> Firstly I will mention the second point above re the quote from the Tablet
> revealed by Baha’u’llah in the Haykal.
>
> Please Gilberto.
>
> It can be read differently.
>
> Baha’u’llah is here emphasizing the truth that “clinging to one name” being
> attached to one name” “idolizing one name” to the detriment of realizing
> that He Possesses ALL Names (= > All Revelations the One Common revelation),
>  THAT is the start of going away from the truth, becoming negative, turning
> away from the entirety and wholeness of Divine Revelations and becoming
> engrossed and entrapped by shirk which is hell itself.
>

If I'm understanding you properly, I think that's a beautiful way to
think of things. But would you be willing to say that people in the
present day can "cling" to Bahaullah in a negative sense in the
present day ? Can someone be a member of a particular faith without
believing in Bahaullah without being guilty of "clinging" to their old
faith?

Or to explain with an example on the other side.. there is a blog
which I like reading from time to time called Inspirations and
Creative Thoughts.
http://www.mysticsaint.info/

>From what I can tell, the author is basically Muslim, from a Muslim
family, who follows the Shadhili tariqat and believes that Muhammad is
the last prophet. But he follows Islam in a really open-hearted way
and values the truth wherever it appears (including the Bahai
writings). As far as I can tell, he doesn't consider the Bab or
Bahaullah as Manifestations or prophets, but he has an appreication of
works like the Seven Valleys. Would you consider such a person to be
"clinging"?

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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Khazeh  wrote:

> You also said dearest Gilberto
>
> **I'm going to give more weight to what scholars from Darul-uloom or from
> Al-Azhar**
>
> I beg of you on my knees: do not give weight to scholars qua scholars. Give
> weight to your noble conscience the voice within the soul.
>
> Read what they write but do not let your soul be affected by humans
>

I agree that in matters of ultimate truth you should follow your
conscience. But the context of the above was a discussion about what
"Sunni Islam" teaches. And in that context, I was saying I would give
more weight to what those institutions of Sunni learning say than what
Firouz says is taught by "Sunni Islam". Actually in that context I
would also give more weight to my own conscience as well.

>

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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Sen & Sonja]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 19 Dec 2010 at 18:04, Firouz wrote:

> What do you call a Muslim who recognizes Baha'u'llah as Manifestation
> of God? 

"Friend."

Sen


--
--
Sen McGlinn   http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com 

All is to be yielded up, save only the *remembrance* of God; 
   all is to be dispraised, except His praise. 
Today, to this melody of the Company on high, 
   the world will leap and dance: 
  `Glory be to my Lord, the All-Glorious!' 

 (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 93) 
--
-- 


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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Firouz]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Thank you Sen for your remark. I see your point and I agree with you.  I 
think I could not express myself properly.  I am a Baha'i of Muslim 
Background. I became a Baha'i when I was 20, some 30 years ago. What do 
you call a Muslim who recognizes Baha'u'llah as Manifestation of God?


Best regards,
Firouz

On 19/12/2010 5:45 PM, Sen & Sonja wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 19 Dec 2010 at 10:05, Firouz wrote:


This is the main issue you pointed out. Gilberto and indeed no Muslim
could ever accept that there could be a Messenger after Prophet
Muhammad,

And yet, you did make that step. You should know personally, and you
can see historically, that many Muslims have made that step. Beware
of essentialisms (which is to say, prejudices) that lay down what a
whole class of people "can never do."

The "recognition" (irfan)  of a messenger of God (whether new, or
already socially accepted) requires something more than knowledge of
certain texts, or the ability to manipulate the codes of meaning to
come up with the "right" answer. It involves a certain personal
capacity which cannot be aquired simply by taking over someone else's
knowledge and arguments, but which can be developed internally. This
capacity is not limited to people of any one race or religion or era,
but it is very far from universal. Irfan is and has always been the
prize for those who strive for it

Sen


--
--
Sen McGlinn   http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com

Happy are those who spend their days in gaining knowledge, in
discovering the secrets of nature, and in penetrating the subtleties
of
pure truth! Woe to those who are contented with ignorance, whose
hearts
are gladdened by thoughtless imitation, ... who have wasted their
lives!"(~Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions p.137)

--



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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Sen & Sonja]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 19 Dec 2010 at 10:05, Firouz wrote:

> This is the main issue you pointed out. Gilberto and indeed no Muslim
> could ever accept that there could be a Messenger after Prophet
> Muhammad, 

And yet, you did make that step. You should know personally, and you 
can see historically, that many Muslims have made that step. Beware 
of essentialisms (which is to say, prejudices) that lay down what a 
whole class of people "can never do." 

The "recognition" (irfan)  of a messenger of God (whether new, or 
already socially accepted) requires something more than knowledge of 
certain texts, or the ability to manipulate the codes of meaning to 
come up with the "right" answer. It involves a certain personal 
capacity which cannot be aquired simply by taking over someone else's 
knowledge and arguments, but which can be developed internally. This 
capacity is not limited to people of any one race or religion or era, 
but it is very far from universal. Irfan is and has always been the 
prize for those who strive for it

Sen


--
--
Sen McGlinn   http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com

Happy are those who spend their days in gaining knowledge, in 
discovering the secrets of nature, and in penetrating the subtleties 
of
pure truth! Woe to those who are contented with ignorance, whose 
hearts
are gladdened by thoughtless imitation, ... who have wasted their
lives!"(~Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions p.137)

--
-- 


 



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RE: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Khazeh]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Firouz Anaraki

fir...@thai-bahais.org

Wrote to our dear and respected and much loved brother Gilberto Simpson

> Hi Gilberto,

> 

> Even though Baha'is may talk about Baha'is and non-Baha'is, we still 

> believe in equality of rights for all humans. All have equal rights 

> and opportunities.

 

And our brother Gilberto Simpson Replied

**

It's also worth pointing out that there is nothing in the Quran which says 
"Thou shalt prevent the Bahais from getting a college education".. Part of the 
treatment of the Bahais in Iran has to do with the specifics of Iranian society 
and it isn't just all based on religion.**

 

Again Firouz said

>  And we don't think non-Baha'is go to hell

 

 

Whereupon Gilberto replied:

 

That's not exactly true. Isn't recognizing the Manifestation for the current 
age seen as a major obligation according to the Bahá’ís?

 

>From The summons of the Lord of Hosts

Suriy-i-Haykal

***It is even as ye witness in the present day: those who have disbelieved in 
God and joined partners with Him cling to a single one of Our Names, and are 
debarred from recognizing Him Who is the Creator of all Names. We testify that 
such men are of a truth amongst the people of the Fire.**

 

Firouz can reply for himself of course and others so much better equipped than 
this lowly one can engage in deep and spiritual conversation but I wish to make 
two points as I always admire Gilberto’s mind and logic.

 

Firstly I will mention the second point above re the quote from the Tablet 
revealed by Baha’u’llah in the Haykal.

Please Gilberto.

It can be read differently.

Baha’u’llah is here emphasizing the truth that “clinging to one name” being 
attached to one name” “idolizing one name” to the detriment of realizing that 
He Possesses ALL Names (= > All Revelations the One Common revelation),  THAT 
is the start of going away from the truth, becoming negative, turning away from 
the entirety and wholeness of Divine Revelations and becoming engrossed and 
entrapped by shirk which is hell itself.

 

**I testify, O Thou Who art the Lord of the whole creation, and the Desire of 
whosoever hath sought Thee, that, amidst Thy creatures, They resemble the sun 
which no matter how often it riseth and setteth is still the one and the same 
sun. Whoso maketh any distinction between any of Them hath truly failed to 
attain the ultimate purpose, and to reach the highest goal, and hath been 
deprived of the mysteries of unity and of the lights of sanctity and oneness.

 

  (Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 50)

 

This *deprivation* à i.e.  been deprived of the mysteries of unity and of the 
lights of sanctity and oneness leads to all sorrow and separation and this 
*depriving oneself pertains as much to me as to any one else.

 

It is in this light that one may read the “Summons” Passage.

 

The onus is on all of us to see if Baha’u’llah does speak the truth. Is He also 
that SUN that rose before and has risen again.

He HimSelf says I am the same Sun. I speak not of Myself.

All humanity is invited to consider this but this is *disagreeable* according 
to the Holy Qur’an

await the day when the Summoner will summon them to a disagreeable thing

yawma yadAAu alddaAAi ila shay-in nukurin (Qur’an)

 

O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes 
of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all 
that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and 
All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for 
this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding 
to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I 
entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured 
that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of 
the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be 
still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of 
all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list. The evanescent is as 
nothing before Him Who is the Ever-Abiding. His all-compelling summons hath 
reached Me, and caused Me to speak His praise amidst all people.

 

  (Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 96)

 

 

 

And dear Gilberto re your second point

".. Part of the treatment of the Bahá’ís in Iran has to do with the specifics 
of Iranian society and it isn't just all based on religion.**

This is a big subject but it has to do also with how their religion is 
interpreted. 

 

You also said dearest Gilberto

**I'm going to give more weight to what scholars from Darul-uloom or from 
Al-Azhar**

 

 

 

I beg of you on my knees: do not give weight to scholars qua scholars. Give 
weight to your noble conscience the voice within the soul.

Read what they write but do not let your soul be affec

Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 10:56 PM, Firouz  wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Hi Gilberto,
>
> Even though Baha'is may talk about Baha'is and non-Baha'is, we still believe
> in equality of rights for all humans. All have equal rights and
> opportunities.

Bahais aren't really in charge anywhere so you can't really say one
way or another how Bahais would treat the non-Bahais in their midst if
they were in a position to oppress. I don't expect Bahais to be
particularly evil but I wouldn't expect them to be particularly
saintly either. You are human and a Bahai society would have the same
flaws, challenges, growing pains, opportunities, potentials,
capacities for improvement that other human societies have.

It's also worth pointing out that there is nothing in the Quran which
says "Thou shalt prevent the Bahais from getting a college
education".. Part of the treatment of the Bahais in Iran has to do
with the specifics of Iranian society and it isn't just all based on
religion.

 A question which comes to mind is if the LSAs/NSA of a particular
region took on all the responsibilities of government would non-Bahais
be able to  vote?


>  And we don't think non-Baha'is go to hell

That's not exactly true. Isn't recognizing the Manifestation for the
current age seen as a major obligation according to the Bahais?

>From The summons of the Lord of Hosts
Suriy-i-Haykal
It is even as ye witness in the present 42 day: those who have
disbelieved in God and joined partners with Him cling to a single one
of Our Names, and are debarred from recognizing Him Who is the Creator
of all Names. We testify that such men are of a truth amongst the
people of the Fire.


or should be taxed
> or punished differently from Baha'is. We do believe in prophets of Muslims
> and other major religions. And we believe in the changeless Faith of God,
> unlike Muslims.

I think that the moment you say "We have the light, unlike those
Muslims over there" is when you become just another religion just like
all the others.  You become just another competing group which adds to
the amount of conflict and divisiveness in the world instead of
promoting unity or peace. I think that the real "changeless Faith" has
more to do with each individual's relationship with God and isn't the
exclusive property of a particular religious group. I have my own set
of beliefs and so I think that some of the specific claims made by a
particular religious group are false. But I think we (people of faith)
are all basically trying to improve ourselves and approach and serve
God to the best of our (often flawed) understanding.  You don't get
automatic brownie points just for being on a particular team.
>
> What I said about Shias and Sunnis is what I have seen in living in both a
> Shia country (Iran) and a Sunni country (UAE). I was born as a Muslim of
> Shia background in Iran and became Baha'i some 30 years ago. So I know well
> how the Muslims (Shias and Sunnis) in Middle East and Indian sub-continent
> think and believe. Probably the Muslims in USA are a bit different.

But you have an axe to grind. And Islam isn't defined by what random
Muslims do. I'm going to give more weight to what scholars from
Darul-uloom or from Al-Azhar (or especially highly respected scholars
like Al-Ghazzali) whom I've read and disagree with you.
>

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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Naison Jones]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Is it possible some of These hadiths were made by muslims who just never
wanted to see Islam succeeded by a new religion?
Like from a statement of Muhammad it gets multiplied and reinforced.
In any case yes names and titles have ever been a test.
What if Muhammad said "I am the first prophet".
You would first say "Errr no your not." Then you would think for a moment
and come to the conclusion that he meant "Oh he means he is the return of
the first prophet".
In like manner time being irrelevent to God. If he is to say "I am the last
prophet" you would say "Err ok that means no prophet will come after you."
Wheras in the same manner as the first versue you should be saying "Ok you
are the return of the last prophet".
Prophets are pre-existant and eternal remember, time is irrelevent.

Read these.

"Such is the state of the wayfarers in this Valley; but the people of the
Valleys above this see the end and the beginning as one; nay, they see
neither beginning nor end, and witness neither "first" nor "last." [Qur'án
57:3.] Nay rather, the denizens of the undying city, who dwell in the green
garden land, see not even "neither first nor last"; they fly from all that
is first, and repulse all that is last. For these have passed over the
worlds of names, and fled beyond the worlds of attributes as swift as
lightning. Thus is it said: "Absolute Unity excludeth all attributes." [Saying
attributed to `Alí.] And they have made their dwelling-place in the shadow
of the Essence. "



Although a brief example hath been given concerning the beginning and ending
of the relative world, the world of attributes, yet a second illustration is
now added, that the full meaning may be manifest. For instance, let thine
Eminence consider his own self; thou art first in relation to thy son, last
in relation to thy father. In thine outward appearance, thou tellest of the
appearance of power in the realms of divine creation; in thine inward being
thou revealest the hidden mysteries which are the divine trust deposited
within thee. And thus firstness and lastness, outwardness and inwardness
are, in the sense referred to, true of thyself, that in these four states
conferred upon thee thou shouldst comprehend the four divine states, and
that the nightingale of thine heart on all the branches of the rosetree of
existence, whether visible or concealed, should cry out: "He is the first
and the last, the Seen and the Hidden" [Qur'án 57:3]

44

 These statements are made in the sphere of that which is relative,
because of the limitations of men. Otherwise, those personages who in a
single step have passed over the world of the relative and the limited, and
dwelt on the fair plane of the Absolute, and pitched their tent in the
worlds of authority and command—have burned away these relativities with a
single spark, and blotted out these words with a drop of dew. And they swim
in the sea of the spirit, and soar in the holy air of light. Then what life
have words, on such a plane, that "first" and "last" or other than these be
seen or mentioned! In this realm, the first is the last itself, and the last
is but the first.

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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Firouz]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hi Gilberto,

Even though Baha'is may talk about Baha'is and non-Baha'is, we still 
believe in equality of rights for all humans. All have equal rights and 
opportunities. And we don't think non-Baha'is go to hell or should be 
taxed or punished differently from Baha'is. We do believe in prophets of 
Muslims and other major religions. And we believe in the changeless 
Faith of God, unlike Muslims.


What I said about Shias and Sunnis is what I have seen in living in both 
a Shia country (Iran) and a Sunni country (UAE). I was born as a Muslim 
of Shia background in Iran and became Baha'i some 30 years ago. So I 
know well how the Muslims (Shias and Sunnis) in Middle East and Indian 
sub-continent think and believe. Probably the Muslims in USA are a bit 
different.


cheers,
Firouz


On 19/12/2010 10:29 AM, Gilberto Simpson wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
A couple of things:

The Bahai Faith also divides humanity into believers and non-believers.

I'm not going to speak for Shias but certainly know of Sunnis who
accept Shias as Muslims. You have no right to generalize about over a
billion people like that.

-There is not a single book called "the Shariah" which contains the
laws followed by all Muslims. And in any case the Shariah shouldn't
just be identified with the laws of Iran.

-I'm sure that the Iranian government treats Bahais and Sunnis badly.
So it shouldn't be surprising if Iranian Bahais or Iranian Sunnis say
nasty things about Muslims or Shias (respectively).


On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Firouz  wrote:

Dear Dr. Hai,

This is the main issue you pointed out. Gilberto and indeed no Muslim could
ever accept that there could be a Messenger after Prophet Muhammad, and that
is why Muslims cannot recognize followers of Baha'u'llah as People of Book.
We see this clearly in Iran and how the Muslim rulers treat Baha'is. That
would be the case in any other country when the Islamic Shariah is followed.
I never believe when Muslims talk about equality of human beings. For
Muslims there are just 2 kinds of people, believers and non-believers. And
Sharia laws clearly state how non-believers should be treated. The problem
for Muslims is that Sunnis do not considers Shias as Muslims and vice versa.
And we well know how Shias of Iran treat Sunnis and how Sunnis countries
treat their Shia subjects.

If you get some time, please watch the following video. A sunni Imam in Iran
addressing his followers. It is in Persian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S6m9JP97UU&feature=player_embedded


Best regards,
Firouz


Best regards,
Firouz


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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
A couple of things:

The Bahai Faith also divides humanity into believers and non-believers.

I'm not going to speak for Shias but certainly know of Sunnis who
accept Shias as Muslims. You have no right to generalize about over a
billion people like that.

-There is not a single book called "the Shariah" which contains the
laws followed by all Muslims. And in any case the Shariah shouldn't
just be identified with the laws of Iran.

-I'm sure that the Iranian government treats Bahais and Sunnis badly.
So it shouldn't be surprising if Iranian Bahais or Iranian Sunnis say
nasty things about Muslims or Shias (respectively).


On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Firouz  wrote:
>
> Dear Dr. Hai,
>
> This is the main issue you pointed out. Gilberto and indeed no Muslim could
> ever accept that there could be a Messenger after Prophet Muhammad, and that
> is why Muslims cannot recognize followers of Baha'u'llah as People of Book.
> We see this clearly in Iran and how the Muslim rulers treat Baha'is. That
> would be the case in any other country when the Islamic Shariah is followed.
> I never believe when Muslims talk about equality of human beings. For
> Muslims there are just 2 kinds of people, believers and non-believers. And
> Sharia laws clearly state how non-believers should be treated. The problem
> for Muslims is that Sunnis do not considers Shias as Muslims and vice versa.
> And we well know how Shias of Iran treat Sunnis and how Sunnis countries
> treat their Shia subjects.
>
> If you get some time, please watch the following video. A sunni Imam in Iran
> addressing his followers. It is in Persian.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S6m9JP97UU&feature=player_embedded
> 
>
> Best regards,
> Firouz
>
>
> Best regards,
> Firouz
>
>
> __
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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Firouz]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 19/12/2010 3:13 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. wrote:


You also fail to see the self definition of the Baha'i Faith as a new 
Divine Revelation, as a new religion and you talks about saints, and 
awliyAA, and reformers, etc. Baha'u'llah is none of those. He is the 
Founder and Author of a new Divinely ordained religion/Revelation.. 
This is self definition. You don't address that.


Dear Dr. Hai,

This is the main issue you pointed out. Gilberto and indeed no Muslim 
could ever accept that there could be a Messenger after Prophet 
Muhammad, and that is why Muslims cannot recognize followers of 
Baha'u'llah as People of Book. We see this clearly in Iran and how the 
Muslim rulers treat Baha'is. That would be the case in any other country 
when the Islamic Shariah is followed. I never believe when Muslims talk 
about equality of human beings. For Muslims there are just 2 kinds of 
people, believers and non-believers. And Sharia laws clearly state how 
non-believers should be treated. The problem for Muslims is that Sunnis 
do not considers Shias as Muslims and vice versa. And we well know how 
Shias of Iran treat Sunnis and how Sunnis countries treat their Shia 
subjects.


If you get some time, please watch the following video. A sunni Imam in 
Iran addressing his followers. It is in Persian.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S6m9JP97UU&feature=player_embedded 



Best regards,
Firouz


Best regards,
Firouz


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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Iskandar Hai, M.D.]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 5:14 PM, Gilberto Simpson <
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
>  wrote:
> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> >
> > It's one thing to say that Prophets have similarities and have
> differences.
> > But, it's quite another thing to quote a hadith that purportedly says
> > Muhammad was given things (was it six things?) that other Prophets lacked
> > and then when you do actually analyze those six things, they are rather
> > bogus.
>
> If all you can say is that I'm "bogus" and aren't giving an actual
> reason, then I'm going to let this drop. Feel free to believe what you
> like on that point. I don't care. But EVEN IF that one hadith is
> "bogus" there are still over a dozen which using different phrasing
> and different phrasing say that Muhammad (saaws) is the last prophet.
> The argument doesn't just depend on the poetic meaning of the word
> "seal" or the validity of one or two hadith. Since you seem to reject
> the hadith as a whole anyway, I don't expect you to believe it. But
> I'm also okay with that.
>

--
I don't have time to go over all the ahadith that you had quoted but if you
read them very carefully, and if you are unbiased, you will see that some or
most of them have problems. I don't say you are bogus. I'm saying the hadith
is bogus. But then you become so conveniently selective in picking and
choosing your ahadith that it becomes ludicrous. Who are you? Are you a
Muslim hadith scholar and theologian or something?


>
> > You also fail to see the self definition of the Baha'i Faith as a new
> Divine
> > Revelation, as a new religion and you talks about saints, and awliyAA,
> and
> > reformers, etc. Baha'u'llah is none of those. He is the Founder and
> Author
> > of a new Divinely ordained religion/Revelation. This is self definition.
> You
> > don't address that.
>
> Initially I was responding to someone who said that the Bahai view
> since (in his opinion) it didn't allow for religion to be renewed. And
> so I mentioned those figures because they provide a way for religion
> to be renewed. Of course that would happen in a different way than the
> Bahai faith advocates because we are talking about two different
> religions. What is your point?
>
> But also, if you really look at what the Sufis are claiming when they
> say that a saint is an insan al-kamil or the qutb of the age it isn't
> small potatos. They don't just mean he or she is a boy scout If you
> really look into the issue, they are basically saying that the person
> is like a Manifestation in the Bahai sense, a powerful perfect
> polished mirror, capable of receiving kashf (unveiling) and ilham
> (inspiration).
>


--
They still seld describe themselves as Muslims. None of them have ever dared
to change one iota of Islamic shari`ah law. Baha'u'llah abrogated  laws of
past Dispensations by Divine authority. That's the difference.



>
> > Khazeh's paper and Moojan's paper address many many issues from a variety
> of
> > angles and perspectives. You don't address or engage them. Or, you just
> > can't.
>
> Because I've read the paper and thought about it before and discussed
> different parts of it on this list before.
>

---
No, you have not. You cannot.



>
> > By they way, how on earth did Moses spoke directly with God? Did God
> speak
> > with Moses in Hebrew or in Arabic, or what? How can God speak, anyhow?
> How
> > does God communicate with other Prophets? Via SMS text messaging?
>
> To get into the detailed theological issues would be controversial.
> There are technical differences between Muslims (Mutazilites, Asharis,
> Maturidis) on the nature of God's speech and I'm not sure what the
> technical Bahai position (I'd guess Mutazilite, but I really don't
> know for sure). But in terms of broad textual support, the Quran, the
> Bab, Bahaullah, and Shoghi Effendi ALL refered to Moses with the title
> "he who conversed/discoursed with God".
>
> 
"he who conversed/discoursed with God" is just a title. You made it sound
like it's really a difference. Prophets all speak with God.

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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Gilberto Simpson]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
 wrote:
> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
>
> It's one thing to say that Prophets have similarities and have differences.
> But, it's quite another thing to quote a hadith that purportedly says
> Muhammad was given things (was it six things?) that other Prophets lacked
> and then when you do actually analyze those six things, they are rather
> bogus.

If all you can say is that I'm "bogus" and aren't giving an actual
reason, then I'm going to let this drop. Feel free to believe what you
like on that point. I don't care. But EVEN IF that one hadith is
"bogus" there are still over a dozen which using different phrasing
and different phrasing say that Muhammad (saaws) is the last prophet.
The argument doesn't just depend on the poetic meaning of the word
"seal" or the validity of one or two hadith. Since you seem to reject
the hadith as a whole anyway, I don't expect you to believe it. But
I'm also okay with that.

> You also fail to see the self definition of the Baha'i Faith as a new Divine
> Revelation, as a new religion and you talks about saints, and awliyAA, and
> reformers, etc. Baha'u'llah is none of those. He is the Founder and Author
> of a new Divinely ordained religion/Revelation. This is self definition. You
> don't address that.

Initially I was responding to someone who said that the Bahai view
since (in his opinion) it didn't allow for religion to be renewed. And
so I mentioned those figures because they provide a way for religion
to be renewed. Of course that would happen in a different way than the
Bahai faith advocates because we are talking about two different
religions. What is your point?

But also, if you really look at what the Sufis are claiming when they
say that a saint is an insan al-kamil or the qutb of the age it isn't
small potatos. They don't just mean he or she is a boy scout If you
really look into the issue, they are basically saying that the person
is like a Manifestation in the Bahai sense, a powerful perfect
polished mirror, capable of receiving kashf (unveiling) and ilham
(inspiration).

> Khazeh's paper and Moojan's paper address many many issues from a variety of
> angles and perspectives. You don't address or engage them. Or, you just
> can't.

Because I've read the paper and thought about it before and discussed
different parts of it on this list before.

> By they way, how on earth did Moses spoke directly with God? Did God speak
> with Moses in Hebrew or in Arabic, or what? How can God speak, anyhow? How
> does God communicate with other Prophets? Via SMS text messaging?

To get into the detailed theological issues would be controversial.
There are technical differences between Muslims (Mutazilites, Asharis,
Maturidis) on the nature of God's speech and I'm not sure what the
technical Bahai position (I'd guess Mutazilite, but I really don't
know for sure). But in terms of broad textual support, the Quran, the
Bab, Bahaullah, and Shoghi Effendi ALL refered to Moses with the title
"he who conversed/discoursed with God".

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Re: respect for prophets was Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Iskandar Hai, M.D.]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
It's one thing to say that Prophets have similarities and have differences.
But, it's quite another thing to quote a hadith that purportedly says
Muhammad was given things (was it six things?) that other Prophets lacked
and then when you do actually analyze those six things, they are rather
bogus. And you fail to see that.

You also fail to see the self definition of the Baha'i Faith as a new Divine
Revelation, as a new religion and you talks about saints, and awliyAA, and
reformers, etc. Baha'u'llah is none of those. He is the Founder and Author
of a new Divinely ordained religion/Revelation. This is self definition. You
don't address that.

Khazeh's paper and Moojan's paper address many many issues from a variety of
angles and perspectives. You don't address or engage them. Or, you just
can't.


By they way, how on earth did Moses spoke directly with God? Did God speak
with Moses in Hebrew or in Arabic, or what? How can God speak, anyhow? How
does God communicate with other Prophets? Via SMS text messaging?


On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Gilberto Simpson <
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Baha'i Studies Listserv
> Iskandar,
>
> The point which I don't think you are seeing is that all the prophets
> would have had special things about them which distinguish them from
> one another. Adam was the first prophet. Moses is said to have spoken
> to God "directly". Joseph was said to be exceedingly beautiful. Jonah
> was one of the few prophets who preached to his people so that they
> averted punishment.
>
> The flipside is that other prophets weren't distinguished in those
> specific ways but had other attributes of excellence.
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
>  wrote:
>
> >> > This is the hadith that you quoted:
> >> > * The Holy Prophet (PBUH) observed: "God has bestowed upon me six
> >> > favors which the former Prophets did not enjoy:
> >> >
> >> >I have been endowed with the gift of pithy and perfect speech. I
> >> > was granted victory owing to my awe. The spoils of war were made
> >> > lawful unto me.
> >> > ---
>
> >> > Do you really and sincerely believe that kind of rubbish about your
> >> > Prophet?
> >> > You are a sick man if you do. Plain and simple.
> >> > As I said, go back and re-read the other ahadith that you quoted and
> >> > read
> >> > them carefully. Most of them are just garbage. They were simply made
> up
> >> > and
> >> > fabricated decades later for various other purposes.
> >> >
> >>
> >> If you have to resort to insults it just makes me lose respect for
> >> you. You are entitled to your opinion but I really don't have any
> >> desire to have you address me.
> >
> >
> > What you fail to see is that the hadith that you had quoted, if read
> > carefully, is disrespectful towards all the other Prophets of God; and
> > if/when you believe that your Prophet could have said it, then you
> > definitely have a sick mind. That's why I believe that that hadith (and
> some
> > of the other ones) were bogus and fabricated.
>
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