Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
But when you click the side switch mapped to MMB while hovering, it's still MMB if you choose to make contact with the surface, correct? Hmm... actually, I'm not sure. I presumed it would just count as both buttons (LMB + MMB), but you could be correct. I'll give it a test the next time I'm on my work computer. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 7:11 PM, Mike Erwin significant@gmail.com wrote: Ahh, everything makes sense now! What you say is exactly right. This Linux behavior can probably be mimicked on Windows too with the proper driver settings. But when you click the side switch mapped to MMB while hovering, it's still MMB if you choose to make contact with the surface, correct? It's not that hovering has no pressure, the pressure is just zero. A regular mouse has no pressure. Right now the code treats both no pressure zero pressure as pressure = 1, which isn't really correct. One of the things I'm working on :). Back to your original point, a hovering pen has zero pressure and can't be used to draw. Totally agree. Sorry for veering away from the keymaps topic and into tablet-land! It's just where my head's been for the past several weeks. Mike Erwin musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:20 PM, Nathan Vegdahl ces...@cessen.com wrote: I feel like we are still miscommunicating. It sounds like your setup is: Stylus tip = LMB Hold down side-button-1 + stylus tip = MMB Hold down side-button-2 + stylus tip = RMB In other words, you use the side buttons as _modifiers_ for the tip of the stylus. Holding them down changes the meaning of the tip. Whereas my setup (and the default on Linux) is: Stylus tip = LMB Side-button-1 = MMB Side-button-2 = RMB The side buttons in this case are buttons unto themselves, they are _not_ modifiers for the stylus tip. All I do is click a side button, and it acts as a mouse button click. No need to tap the stylus tip to the tablet at all. Does that make sense? So with the setup I use, MMB and RMB have no pressure sensitivity, because they have absolutely nothing to do with the tip of the stylus where the pressure sensitivity is. --Nathan ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
I've been thinking about number keys and edit modes. It's been suggested that the modes be bound to the number keys. I'm all for this. I also would like to propose that shift plus a number key adds an edit mode. Ctrl + number key can remove a mode. Example suppose a user inputs this series of keys: 1 - Switch to Face mode 2 - Switch to Edge mode Shift 3 - Add Vertex mode, now Blender is in Edge + Vertex mode Shift 1 - Add Face mode, now Blender is in all 3 Ctrl 2 - Remove Edge mode, now Blender is Face + Vertex -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez jo...@lunarworkshop.com twitter: VinoBS 919.757.3066 ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Ahh, everything makes sense now! What you say is exactly right. This Linux behavior can probably be mimicked on Windows too with the proper driver settings. But when you click the side switch mapped to MMB while hovering, it's still MMB if you choose to make contact with the surface, correct? It's not that hovering has no pressure, the pressure is just zero. A regular mouse has no pressure. Right now the code treats both no pressure zero pressure as pressure = 1, which isn't really correct. One of the things I'm working on :). Back to your original point, a hovering pen has zero pressure and can't be used to draw. Totally agree. Sorry for veering away from the keymaps topic and into tablet-land! It's just where my head's been for the past several weeks. Mike Erwin musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:20 PM, Nathan Vegdahl ces...@cessen.com wrote: I feel like we are still miscommunicating. It sounds like your setup is: Stylus tip = LMB Hold down side-button-1 + stylus tip = MMB Hold down side-button-2 + stylus tip = RMB In other words, you use the side buttons as _modifiers_ for the tip of the stylus. Holding them down changes the meaning of the tip. Whereas my setup (and the default on Linux) is: Stylus tip = LMB Side-button-1 = MMB Side-button-2 = RMB The side buttons in this case are buttons unto themselves, they are _not_ modifiers for the stylus tip. All I do is click a side button, and it acts as a mouse button click. No need to tap the stylus tip to the tablet at all. Does that make sense? So with the setup I use, MMB and RMB have no pressure sensitivity, because they have absolutely nothing to do with the tip of the stylus where the pressure sensitivity is. --Nathan ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Sounds like a good idea :) Might also be an idea to keep the current keymap, if the changes are integrated etc., in a Blender Classic preset, so that people who like the current set up can still get to use them. On 06/04/2012 05:53, CG Cookie wrote: A major +1 from me as well. If you'd like some help also I'm game to chip in to help develop the initial keymap. Sent from my iPad On Apr 5, 2012, at 11:10 PM, Damir Prebegblend.fact...@gmail.com wrote: +1 for all of these principles. Especially for the Principle 0. ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Also as a Dvorak keyboard users, I always feel left out. I switch to QWERTY just for blender use. Ah, indeed! This should be filed under principle 7, along with all those other things I haven't a clue how to address yet. Hopefully we'll come up with solutions as we try out various keymap ideas. I think dropping the number keys is a really bad idea unless you come up with something really great to replace it! Oh, don't get me wrong, my numerical keypad is a cornerstone of my blender use. But if we can find a reasonable way to accomplish the same things without it, I think we should go for it. And even if we do, we can still leave the numpad as-is for those who do have a numpad. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 12:16 AM, Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:05 AM, metalliandy metalliandy...@googlemail.com wrote: Sounds like a good idea :) Might also be an idea to keep the current keymap, if the changes are integrated etc., in a Blender Classic preset, so that people who like the current set up can still get to use them. Yes, I was about to post the same thing. New and classic keyboards are a must. Also as a Dvorak keyboard users, I always feel left out. I switch to QWERTY just for blender use. I think dropping the number keys is a really bad idea unless you come up with something really great to replace it! Laptop users can always buy a plug in keyboard if they must use laptops for work. Also as a person working on backs and necks all day, I must say that using a Laptop full time is really a dumb idea! -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
+1, Nathan, you can start working on this immediately in contrib if you like. From trunk this DIR us used for keymap files but as with any other contrib script - it wont be included in release, which is a good think seeing as we're in feature freeze ATM. The keymap can be committed to: ./release/scripts/addons_contrib/presets/keyconfig/ On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Nathan Vegdahl ces...@cessen.com wrote: Also as a Dvorak keyboard users, I always feel left out. I switch to QWERTY just for blender use. Ah, indeed! This should be filed under principle 7, along with all those other things I haven't a clue how to address yet. Hopefully we'll come up with solutions as we try out various keymap ideas. I think dropping the number keys is a really bad idea unless you come up with something really great to replace it! Oh, don't get me wrong, my numerical keypad is a cornerstone of my blender use. But if we can find a reasonable way to accomplish the same things without it, I think we should go for it. And even if we do, we can still leave the numpad as-is for those who do have a numpad. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 12:16 AM, Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:05 AM, metalliandy metalliandy...@googlemail.com wrote: Sounds like a good idea :) Might also be an idea to keep the current keymap, if the changes are integrated etc., in a Blender Classic preset, so that people who like the current set up can still get to use them. Yes, I was about to post the same thing. New and classic keyboards are a must. Also as a Dvorak keyboard users, I always feel left out. I switch to QWERTY just for blender use. I think dropping the number keys is a really bad idea unless you come up with something really great to replace it! Laptop users can always buy a plug in keyboard if they must use laptops for work. Also as a person working on backs and necks all day, I must say that using a Laptop full time is really a dumb idea! -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- - Campbell ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Here are some (proposed) principles for designing the keymap (the order has nothing to do with importance): --Nathan ___ +1 for all of these principles. ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
== Principle 8 == Key-map everything. There are many operators that don't have any key-map. Users have to manually create key-slot for it and configure it and it is not so easy and takes some time. Users should have some key-map for everything so they could just easily edit it if needed. -- n-pigeon ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Thanks Campbell! I attempted to commit what I have so far, but SVN gave me this error: svn: Commit failed (details follow): svn: Server sent unexpected return value (405 Method Not Allowed) in response to MKCOL request for '/svnroot/bf-extensions/!svn/wrk/1c506060-ffef-45df-99b1-68315534/contrib/py/scripts/addons/presets/keyconfig' Do I not have permission to commit in addons_contrib? Or is it something else? --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Campbell Barton ideasma...@gmail.com wrote: +1, Nathan, you can start working on this immediately in contrib if you like. From trunk this DIR us used for keymap files but as with any other contrib script - it wont be included in release, which is a good think seeing as we're in feature freeze ATM. The keymap can be committed to: ./release/scripts/addons_contrib/presets/keyconfig/ On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Nathan Vegdahl ces...@cessen.com wrote: Also as a Dvorak keyboard users, I always feel left out. I switch to QWERTY just for blender use. Ah, indeed! This should be filed under principle 7, along with all those other things I haven't a clue how to address yet. Hopefully we'll come up with solutions as we try out various keymap ideas. I think dropping the number keys is a really bad idea unless you come up with something really great to replace it! Oh, don't get me wrong, my numerical keypad is a cornerstone of my blender use. But if we can find a reasonable way to accomplish the same things without it, I think we should go for it. And even if we do, we can still leave the numpad as-is for those who do have a numpad. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 12:16 AM, Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:05 AM, metalliandy metalliandy...@googlemail.com wrote: Sounds like a good idea :) Might also be an idea to keep the current keymap, if the changes are integrated etc., in a Blender Classic preset, so that people who like the current set up can still get to use them. Yes, I was about to post the same thing. New and classic keyboards are a must. Also as a Dvorak keyboard users, I always feel left out. I switch to QWERTY just for blender use. I think dropping the number keys is a really bad idea unless you come up with something really great to replace it! Laptop users can always buy a plug in keyboard if they must use laptops for work. Also as a person working on backs and necks all day, I must say that using a Laptop full time is really a dumb idea! -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- - Campbell ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
As much as I would love to have a keymap for everything, I think this is really difficuly. There's just not enough room to still keep consistency and all of those wonderful principles. Also keep in mind that not all artists need to use the whole 100% of Blender but only a subset of it for which I'm pretty sure they're going to configure they own keymaps (my graph editor behaves in a way that would probably make other users scream, but it's incredibly fast for me!) Anyway, +1 to all of the above! .Gian On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Przemyslaw Golab gbird...@gmail.comwrote: == Principle 8 == Key-map everything. There are many operators that don't have any key-map. Users have to manually create key-slot for it and configure it and it is not so easy and takes some time. Users should have some key-map for everything so they could just easily edit it if needed. -- n-pigeon ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 7:14 PM, Przemyslaw Golab gbird...@gmail.com wrote: == Principle 8 == Key-map everything. There are many operators that don't have any key-map. Users have to manually create key-slot for it and configure it and it is not so easy and takes some time. Users should have some key-map for everything so they could just easily edit it if needed. Don't agree here, sometimes there are conflicts with mixed modes - some tools are fairly obscure - all we can do is our best to make good choices, but map everything is a bit unrealistic - unless you accept many strange keymaps with ctrl+alt+shift+fkeys... but dont think this helps with user satisfaction/efficiency. With any generic keymap there will always bee some specific use case where someone wants to map some obscure tool to a key that doesn't make sense for general usage, a new keymap can't solve that IMHO. ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
There's just not enough room to still keep consistency and all of those wonderful principles. No doubt! I have no illusions that a perfect keymap is possible, hitting all of these principles 100%. With any problem this complex, that's not going to happen. You can't design roads to get everyone everywhere in a straight line, either. But you can do better than a crazy confusing jungle of one-way streets and deadends. Likewise, I think we can make some significant improvements to Blender's keymap, even if it can't reach a fictitious ideal state where every workflow is perfectly efficient everywhere in Blender. :-) Also keep in mind that not all artists need to use the whole 100% of Blender but only a subset of it for which I'm pretty sure they're going to configure they own keymaps Dunno, I think this depends on the user. I use vanilla Blender for all my work. I used to do lots of customization on various softwares I used, but eventually I realized that for me, personally, it's more trouble than it's worth. It's a pain to keep track of, for one thing, and it makes it harder to sit down at someone else's computer and show them how to do something. But to each their own! Nothing wrong with customizing if that's what you prefer. But I think an updated keymap is overdue for people like me who prefer to stick with vanilla Blender. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Gianmichele Mariani g.mari...@liquidnet.it wrote: As much as I would love to have a keymap for everything, I think this is really difficuly. There's just not enough room to still keep consistency and all of those wonderful principles. Also keep in mind that not all artists need to use the whole 100% of Blender but only a subset of it for which I'm pretty sure they're going to configure they own keymaps (my graph editor behaves in a way that would probably make other users scream, but it's incredibly fast for me!) Anyway, +1 to all of the above! .Gian On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Przemyslaw Golab gbird...@gmail.comwrote: == Principle 8 == Key-map everything. There are many operators that don't have any key-map. Users have to manually create key-slot for it and configure it and it is not so easy and takes some time. Users should have some key-map for everything so they could just easily edit it if needed. -- n-pigeon ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Agreed, Campbell. Principle 8 really ought to be: There is no such thing as a perfect keymap. We _will_ be making compromises, and not everyone is going to be perfectly happy. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Campbell Barton ideasma...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 7:14 PM, Przemyslaw Golab gbird...@gmail.com wrote: == Principle 8 == Key-map everything. There are many operators that don't have any key-map. Users have to manually create key-slot for it and configure it and it is not so easy and takes some time. Users should have some key-map for everything so they could just easily edit it if needed. Don't agree here, sometimes there are conflicts with mixed modes - some tools are fairly obscure - all we can do is our best to make good choices, but map everything is a bit unrealistic - unless you accept many strange keymaps with ctrl+alt+shift+fkeys... but dont think this helps with user satisfaction/efficiency. With any generic keymap there will always bee some specific use case where someone wants to map some obscure tool to a key that doesn't make sense for general usage, a new keymap can't solve that IMHO. ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Yes but the problem is the creations of keyslot, creating new keyslot for operator that doesn't have one is not easy and fast. You have to find it (learn that it doesn't exists) create one (learn how) and edit it. Not just, find it edit it how you like. W dniu 6 kwietnia 2012 11:35 użytkownik Gianmichele Mariani g.mari...@liquidnet.it napisał: As much as I would love to have a keymap for everything, I think this is really difficuly. There's just not enough room to still keep consistency and all of those wonderful principles. Also keep in mind that not all artists need to use the whole 100% of Blender but only a subset of it for which I'm pretty sure they're going to configure they own keymaps (my graph editor behaves in a way that would probably make other users scream, but it's incredibly fast for me!) Anyway, +1 to all of the above! .Gian -- n-pigeon ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Hmm, maybe something different about my #8 rule. Everything haves a slot, event if it not assigned to key. Then if someone wants a hot key for this function, he only add what key he want. How about this approach? -- n-pigeon ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
2012/4/6 Przemyslaw Golab gbird...@gmail.com: Yes but the problem is the creations of keyslot, creating new keyslot for operator that doesn't have one is not easy and fast. You have to find it (learn that it doesn't exists) create one (learn how) and edit it. Not just, find it edit it how you like. Then it should be made east fast. ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Just committed the first version of the new keymap. Or perhaps I should say pre-version. It's not much yet. The main change of interest that I've made is how mode-switching works. A toggle mentality really doesn't work anymore, since e.g. mesh objects have numerous modes. I'm experimenting with alternative ways to do mode switching. Right now it works by pressing the space-bar, and a menu of available modes pops up. You can use the number keys to select. So spacebar-1 is object mode, spacebar-2 is edit mode, etc. It takes a little getting used to, but is quite fast. I'm thinking that the spacebar, being the largest key on the keyboard, can be a sort of hub for managing context, such as mode switching. It remains to be seen how effective that will be in parts of Blender other than the 3d view. Incidentally, since the spacebar is now the mode-switching key, I've moved the operator search menu to the tab key. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 3:04 AM, Campbell Barton ideasma...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/4/6 Przemyslaw Golab gbird...@gmail.com: Yes but the problem is the creations of keyslot, creating new keyslot for operator that doesn't have one is not easy and fast. You have to find it (learn that it doesn't exists) create one (learn how) and edit it. Not just, find it edit it how you like. Then it should be made east fast. ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Campbell Barton ideasma...@gmail.comwrote: 2012/4/6 Przemyslaw Golab gbird...@gmail.com: Yes but the problem is the creations of keyslot, creating new keyslot for operator that doesn't have one is not easy and fast. You have to find it (learn that it doesn't exists) create one (learn how) and edit it. Not just, find it edit it how you like. My workflow usually dictates what has a keymap and what not. If I find that I use a tool a lot and I still need to navigate menus or toolbars to access it, then I simply and a key to it (most of the time removing something that I don't use at all). This is true in every software I have used. But this is up to the user I guess. @Nathan: totally agree. My comment was referred to having a key for every tool Oo. Can't wait to see what the result is going to be :D ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Incidentally - the underline keys in the menu can also be used as shortcuts, so.. Space, E (Edit mode) Space, O (Object mode) On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Nathan Vegdahl ces...@cessen.com wrote: Just committed the first version of the new keymap. Or perhaps I should say pre-version. It's not much yet. The main change of interest that I've made is how mode-switching works. A toggle mentality really doesn't work anymore, since e.g. mesh objects have numerous modes. I'm experimenting with alternative ways to do mode switching. Right now it works by pressing the space-bar, and a menu of available modes pops up. You can use the number keys to select. So spacebar-1 is object mode, spacebar-2 is edit mode, etc. It takes a little getting used to, but is quite fast. I'm thinking that the spacebar, being the largest key on the keyboard, can be a sort of hub for managing context, such as mode switching. It remains to be seen how effective that will be in parts of Blender other than the 3d view. Incidentally, since the spacebar is now the mode-switching key, I've moved the operator search menu to the tab key. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 3:04 AM, Campbell Barton ideasma...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/4/6 Przemyslaw Golab gbird...@gmail.com: Yes but the problem is the creations of keyslot, creating new keyslot for operator that doesn't have one is not easy and fast. You have to find it (learn that it doesn't exists) create one (learn how) and edit it. Not just, find it edit it how you like. Then it should be made east fast. ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- - Campbell ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
A basic idea is to find what is used most often and then make those keys the most easy to type, remembering the rule of one hand on the mouse at all times. Finding the most used commands might be done by writing a recorder that is mode aware and then letting a large group of pros/advanced users use it. Once you get the data then you have a great starting place when it comes to deciding what is important and often used VS commands that are almost never used. Also keys with mnemonics are good. G=Grab etc. Really odd commands that are seldom used with hotkeys like alt-ctrl-shift B, are almost useless. You forget them, if you even do know when and why to use them. -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Hi! By the way. I have one most used command I use in edit mode. I wanted to propose to create a hot key by default for Limit selection to visible button, that lay right aside the (vert/edge/face) buttons. Usually I bind it to Q key and I use that function very often when I edit meshes, and I think other people do too. Also +1 for all the principles! :) On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com wrote: A basic idea is to find what is used most often and then make those keys the most easy to type, remembering the rule of one hand on the mouse at all times. Finding the most used commands might be done by writing a recorder that is mode aware and then letting a large group of pros/advanced users use it. Once you get the data then you have a great starting place when it comes to deciding what is important and often used VS commands that are almost never used. Also keys with mnemonics are good. G=Grab etc. Really odd commands that are seldom used with hotkeys like alt-ctrl-shift B, are almost useless. You forget them, if you even do know when and why to use them. -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Campbell Barton Then it should be made east fast. Hehe, good point. :) -- n-pigeon ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
I would like to get involved in this too - is there a wiki page or IRC channel we can use to kick around ideas? I can see this topic becoming really long winded for the mailing list. -Sean On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Przemyslaw Golab gbird...@gmail.com wrote: Campbell Barton Then it should be made east fast. Hehe, good point. :) -- n-pigeon ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- ||-- Instant Messengers -- || ICQ at 11133295 || AIM at shatterstar98 || MSN Messenger at shatte...@hotmail.com || Yahoo Y! at the_7th_samuri ||-- ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Inspiring. In particular, this is what caught my eye: On 2012-04-05, at 11:30 PM, Nathan Vegdahl wrote: (When I say keymap in this email, I mean to include the mouse as well. Basically, key/mouse-map.) == Principle 5 == Consistency with other software. Tautology: unless there are good reasons to not adhere to an existing ubiquitous UI standard, then there is no good reason to not adhere to an existing ubiquitous UI standard. Lastly: process. A keymap can be great in theory, but suck in practice. So I would like to err on the side of try things out rather than discussion. Discussion is still important, of course! Especially for figuring out guidelines for the future. But the discussion should, as much as possible, be based around seeing what works and what doesn't. Let's treat keymaps as cheap, and not be shy about trying things out and throwing them away. Those things said - I've been trying LMB-select for a couple of years. I have to say, I much prefer it, as LMB for select is ubiquitous in virtually all other pieces of software I use. Dare I suggest you try this out as well Nathan? ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
On the topic of mode switching: I did some work on this in my own keymap and my approach was to reduce the number of keystrokes and mouse clicks to switch modes. Currently to switch among edit modes (vertex, edge, face) you must press the hotkey and then choose with the mouse. That involves a bit of mouse aiming and an extra click that I think in unnecessary and distracting. My solution was to have three hotkeys, one for each edit mode. That's more keys on the keyboard, but I think it's worth it given how much context switching goes on. Another thing I would like to see is more seamless switching between object mode and the edit modes. If I'm in object mode and I want to go to a specific edit mode then the process is 1. Hit tab to go to edit mode 2. Ctrl-tab to open edit mode menu 3. Select an option, vertex face or edge The mental model that this gives to a user is that there are two high-level modes, object and edit modes, with edit further broken down into three sub-modes. That basically represents how they're implemented in the code. It's a complex mental model that requires a lot of keystrokes and I think it can be simplified. I would like to see four high-level modes, ie object mode, face mode, vertex mode, and edge mode. I think presenting the modes to the user this way is a better choice, since it's a simpler mental model and can result in faster switching between modes and thus more efficient work. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez jo...@lunarworkshop.com twitter: VinoBS 919.757.3066 ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
I would like to see four high-level modes, ie object mode, face mode, vertex mode, and edge mode. Is this a correct way of looking at it? You can be in Object mode *OR* Edit mode. But you can have vertex select, edge select, and face select enabled simultaneously if you wish so they aren't really modes at all. Harley ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
I don't think that has any effect on what I suggested. That all remains the same, but you remove an abstraction layer which groups the three edit modes inside a parent mode. It's not an issue of changing how it's implemented, but rather of changing how it's presented to the user. Currently the presentation represents the implementation, I am suggesting a presentation that simplifies the conceptual model and makes therefore context switching simpler. On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:22 AM, Harley Acheson harley.ache...@gmail.comwrote: I would like to see four high-level modes, ie object mode, face mode, vertex mode, and edge mode. Is this a correct way of looking at it? You can be in Object mode *OR* Edit mode. But you can have vertex select, edge select, and face select enabled simultaneously if you wish so they aren't really modes at all. Harley ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez jo...@lunarworkshop.com twitter: VinoBS 919.757.3066 ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Related to this is differences in keyboard layouts. Many laptops do not have numeric keypads, and yet people are more and more frequently using laptops for serious graphics work. There are also differences in keyboard layouts between countries. Also: number of mouse buttons? People using tablets? Etc. At a recent blender user group, about 12 people brought laptops, and 4-5 of them had USB keypads dangling off the side. For me, the user pref to remap the top number keys is nice in a pinch, but plugging in a full external keyboard is even nicer. No suprise here. One unexpected benefit of the nicer 3D mice is that their buttons elminate the need for a numpad. On a desktop this is a neat trick, but on a laptop it changes everything. I'm shopping for a nice keyboard for my desktop, and am drawn more and more to the tenkeyless models. Paired with a SpaceExplorer, it's never a problem. And with a narrower keyboard, there's room for everything on a keyboard drawer! When using a tablet, the drag-to-move default behavior is never what I want or expect. I end up turning off several keymap items like this. Instead of a one-size-fits-all keymap, why can't we have it grow or shrink based on what devices a person is actually using? Might be better as a keymap-gen script outside blender, to keep things simple. Input: I have a US keyboard layout without numpad, an Inutos4M, and a SpaceMousePro Output: a default keymap for exactly that hardware. Also, how about an interface that answers what is mapped to XYZ in edit mode? That would help avoid conflicts. Mike Erwin musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Finding the most used commands might be done by writing a recorder that is mode aware and then letting a large group of pros/advanced users use it. Once you get the data then you have a great starting place when it comes to deciding what is important and often used VS commands that are almost never used. This is an excellent idea! Anyone up for writing a keystroke logging script? Then we can distribute it to volunteers. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 5:12 AM, Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com wrote: A basic idea is to find what is used most often and then make those keys the most easy to type, remembering the rule of one hand on the mouse at all times. Finding the most used commands might be done by writing a recorder that is mode aware and then letting a large group of pros/advanced users use it. Once you get the data then you have a great starting place when it comes to deciding what is important and often used VS commands that are almost never used. Also keys with mnemonics are good. G=Grab etc. Really odd commands that are seldom used with hotkeys like alt-ctrl-shift B, are almost useless. You forget them, if you even do know when and why to use them. -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
@Nathan: totally agree. My comment was referred to having a key for every tool Oo. Oh, I see! Ha ha, I totally misunderstood. I agree. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 3:26 AM, Gianmichele Mariani g.mari...@liquidnet.it wrote: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Campbell Barton ideasma...@gmail.comwrote: 2012/4/6 Przemyslaw Golab gbird...@gmail.com: Yes but the problem is the creations of keyslot, creating new keyslot for operator that doesn't have one is not easy and fast. You have to find it (learn that it doesn't exists) create one (learn how) and edit it. Not just, find it edit it how you like. My workflow usually dictates what has a keymap and what not. If I find that I use a tool a lot and I still need to navigate menus or toolbars to access it, then I simply and a key to it (most of the time removing something that I don't use at all). This is true in every software I have used. But this is up to the user I guess. @Nathan: totally agree. My comment was referred to having a key for every tool Oo. Can't wait to see what the result is going to be :D ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Inspiring. In particular, this is what caught my eye: On 2012-04-05, at 11:30 PM, Nathan Vegdahl wrote: (When I say keymap in this email, I mean to include the mouse as well. Basically, key/mouse-map.) == Principle 5 == Consistency with other software. Tautology: unless there are good reasons to not adhere to an existing ubiquitous UI standard, then there is no good reason to not adhere to an existing ubiquitous UI standard. Lastly: process. A keymap can be great in theory, but suck in practice. So I would like to err on the side of try things out rather than discussion. Discussion is still important, of course! Especially for figuring out guidelines for the future. But the discussion should, as much as possible, be based around seeing what works and what doesn't. Let's treat keymaps as cheap, and not be shy about trying things out and throwing them away. Those things said - I've been trying LMB-select for a couple of years. I have to say, I much prefer it, as LMB for select is ubiquitous in virtually all other pieces of software I use. Dare I suggest you try this out as well Nathan? On 2012-04-06, at 4:15 PM, Knapp wrote: Mike Erwin; Instead of a one-size-fits-all keymap, why can't we have it grow or shrink based on what devices a person is actually using? Might be better as a keymap-gen script outside blender, to keep things simple. Input: I have a US keyboard layout without numpad, an Inutos4M, and a SpaceMousePro Output: a default keymap for exactly that hardware. I LOVE THIS IDEA!! It makes total sense to have blender be hardware aware or at least keyboard. I would love to have a map for Dvorak that is well designed (fat chance right?) but Chinese might have very different ideas about what is good and also have the users to support it. I think if combined with good data about users and how they use blender, the job might not even be all that hard to do. BTW there is still a strangeness to how it tells what keyboard to use in KDE. It does not use the current keyboard but instead the one at the top of the list of possible keyboards in the keyboard picker setup. It took me a long time to figure this out but now all is good because I put the USA Keyboard on top. It used to have USA Keyboard in some places and Dvorak in others within Blender. -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
On Friday 06 April 2012, Nathan Vegdahl wrote: The other thing I'd like to try out is just assigning the vert/edge/face modes to 1/2/3. Just some feedback on this: I'm using exactly this setting for some time now, and it's far better for me than the default, especially because, as you said, switching is done very often while modelling. I found that I'm switching more often to the setting that is most appropriate for the current modelling task, while with the default setting I tend to avoid switching because it's just a bit too fiddly. Sanne ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Started a wikipage under my user page for now: http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:Cessen/New_Keymap --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Nathan Vegdahl ces...@cessen.com wrote: Excellent point. I'll create a wiki page. Campbell: is there a particular place on the wiki that something like this should go? I'm looking at the guidelines, and it's not entirely obvious to me where this would fit. Maybe just under my user page...? It also may be a good idea to simply move this discussion to the functionality board list. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Sean Olson seanol...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to get involved in this too - is there a wiki page or IRC channel we can use to kick around ideas? I can see this topic becoming really long winded for the mailing list. -Sean On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Przemyslaw Golab gbird...@gmail.com wrote: Campbell Barton Then it should be made east fast. Hehe, good point. :) -- n-pigeon ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers -- ||-- Instant Messengers -- || ICQ at 11133295 || AIM at shatterstar98 || MSN Messenger at shatte...@hotmail.com || Yahoo Y! at the_7th_samuri ||-- ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Those things said - I've been trying LMB-select for a couple of years. I have to say, I much prefer it, as LMB for select is ubiquitous in virtually all other pieces of software I use. Dare I suggest you try this out as well Nathan? Yup! I'm kind of assuming that we'll switch to LMB-select as default. Unless there are some strong arguments against, it seems like it's high time to join the rest of the world on this. And I say this as someone that is extremely used to RMB-select in Blender. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Mike Belanger mikejamesbelan...@gmail.com wrote: Inspiring. In particular, this is what caught my eye: On 2012-04-05, at 11:30 PM, Nathan Vegdahl wrote: (When I say keymap in this email, I mean to include the mouse as well. Basically, key/mouse-map.) == Principle 5 == Consistency with other software. Tautology: unless there are good reasons to not adhere to an existing ubiquitous UI standard, then there is no good reason to not adhere to an existing ubiquitous UI standard. Lastly: process. A keymap can be great in theory, but suck in practice. So I would like to err on the side of try things out rather than discussion. Discussion is still important, of course! Especially for figuring out guidelines for the future. But the discussion should, as much as possible, be based around seeing what works and what doesn't. Let's treat keymaps as cheap, and not be shy about trying things out and throwing them away. Those things said - I've been trying LMB-select for a couple of years. I have to say, I much prefer it, as LMB for select is ubiquitous in virtually all other pieces of software I use. Dare I suggest you try this out as well Nathan? ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Nathan Vegdahl ces...@cessen.com wrote: Those things said - I've been trying LMB-select for a couple of years. I have to say, I much prefer it, as LMB for select is ubiquitous in virtually all other pieces of software I use. Dare I suggest you try this out as well Nathan? Yup! I'm kind of assuming that we'll switch to LMB-select as default. Unless there are some strong arguments against, it seems like it's high time to join the rest of the world on this. And I say this as someone that is extremely used to RMB-select in Blender. --Nathan I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? That's based on the option in the user preferences. It may be true, I'm not sure. In our case, though, we're creating an entire new input map, so there's no reason it needs to be an issue. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Nathan Vegdahl ces...@cessen.com wrote: Those things said - I've been trying LMB-select for a couple of years. I have to say, I much prefer it, as LMB for select is ubiquitous in virtually all other pieces of software I use. Dare I suggest you try this out as well Nathan? Yup! I'm kind of assuming that we'll switch to LMB-select as default. Unless there are some strong arguments against, it seems like it's high time to join the rest of the world on this. And I say this as someone that is extremely used to RMB-select in Blender. --Nathan I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Pitching in on the sub-modes discussion; I feel submodes should be exactly that. They should not be listed in the normal Modes menu with Object/Edit/Weight/etc or else that menu will become too large. I think using 1/2/3 within Edit Mode, and other modes makes the most sense. It's very easy to reach with the left hand and it is not tied to anything else unless using emulate numpad while in Edit Mode. -- Jonathan Williamson Instructor - http://www.blendercookie.com (http://www.blendercookie.com/) Personal Trainer - http://www.mavenseed.com (http://www.mavenseed.com/) Portfolio - http://www.jw3d.com (http://www.jw3d.com/) On Friday, April 6, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Nathan Vegdahl wrote: I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? That's based on the option in the user preferences. It may be true, I'm not sure. In our case, though, we're creating an entire new input map, so there's no reason it needs to be an issue. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com (mailto:magick.c...@gmail.com) wrote: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Nathan Vegdahl ces...@cessen.com (mailto:ces...@cessen.com) wrote: Those things said - I've been trying LMB-select for a couple of years. I have to say, I much prefer it, as LMB for select is ubiquitous in virtually all other pieces of software I use. Dare I suggest you try this out as well Nathan? Yup! I'm kind of assuming that we'll switch to LMB-select as default. Unless there are some strong arguments against, it seems like it's high time to join the rest of the world on this. And I say this as someone that is extremely used to RMB-select in Blender. --Nathan I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org (mailto:Bf-committers@blender.org) http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org (mailto:Bf-committers@blender.org) http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
The only mess-up I'm aware of is weight-painting mode. Trying to select a new bone just paints. But if you just hit Shift+LMB, you get a list of (hopefully) nicely labelled bones. So it isn't that much of a mess-up. I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
When I began to use Blender I chose to use LMB selection because I was accustomed to other applications. I had soon to switch back to RMB selection because left button functions overlapped with selection. Now I think that RMB selection is the best choice and I'd like to use it also in other applications: I can't change selection accidentally and functions are distributed evenly among the two buttons. Maybe you could solve LMB selection conflicts while keeping RMB selection and current mouse-button mapping fully functional. Fabio Massaioli On Fri, 6 Apr 2012, Nathan Vegdahl wrote: I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? That's based on the option in the user preferences. It may be true, I'm not sure. In our case, though, we're creating an entire new input map, so there's no reason it needs to be an issue. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Nathan Vegdahl ces...@cessen.com wrote: Those things said - I've been trying LMB-select for a couple of years. I have to say, I much prefer it, as LMB for select is ubiquitous in virtually all other pieces of software I use. Dare I suggest you try this out as well Nathan? Yup! I'm kind of assuming that we'll switch to LMB-select as default. Unless there are some strong arguments against, it seems like it's high time to join the rest of the world on this. And I say this as someone that is extremely used to RMB-select in Blender. --Nathan I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
The only mess-up I'm aware of is weight-painting mode. Trying to select a new bone just paints. Hmm. Yeah, this may be trickier than I thought. Also consider selecting faces/vertices for masking. For people using mice, switching painting functionality to RMB will work fine. But for tablet users it's important for LMB to be paint, since that's the one with pressure sensitivity. Ideas? --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Mike Belanger mikejamesbelan...@gmail.com wrote: The only mess-up I'm aware of is weight-painting mode. Trying to select a new bone just paints. But if you just hit Shift+LMB, you get a list of (hopefully) nicely labelled bones. So it isn't that much of a mess-up. I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Since selecting bones in weight paint mode is a bit like a secondary action (with painting being the primary action), would it be obscene to change selection in this case to be CTRL + LMB? I realize that strays away from absolute consistency for selection, but I think it would be more strange and confusing to move paint to a different key/button. -- Jonathan Williamson Instructor - http://www.blendercookie.com (http://www.blendercookie.com/) Personal Trainer - http://www.mavenseed.com (http://www.mavenseed.com/) Portfolio - http://www.jw3d.com (http://www.jw3d.com/) On Friday, April 6, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Nathan Vegdahl wrote: The only mess-up I'm aware of is weight-painting mode. Trying to select a new bone just paints. Hmm. Yeah, this may be trickier than I thought. Also consider selecting faces/vertices for masking. For people using mice, switching painting functionality to RMB will work fine. But for tablet users it's important for LMB to be paint, since that's the one with pressure sensitivity. Ideas? --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Mike Belanger mikejamesbelan...@gmail.com (mailto:mikejamesbelan...@gmail.com) wrote: The only mess-up I'm aware of is weight-painting mode. Trying to select a new bone just paints. But if you just hit Shift+LMB, you get a list of (hopefully) nicely labelled bones. So it isn't that much of a mess-up. I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org (mailto:Bf-committers@blender.org) http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org (mailto:Bf-committers@blender.org) http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org (mailto:Bf-committers@blender.org) http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Since selecting bones in weight paint mode is a bit like a secondary action (with painting being the primary action), would it be obscene to change selection in this case to be CTRL + LMB? I think we need to take a broader look at selection first. But using one of the modifier keys to allow selection in paint modes is probably not terrible, no. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 3:55 PM, CG Cookie jonat...@cgcookie.com wrote: Since selecting bones in weight paint mode is a bit like a secondary action (with painting being the primary action), would it be obscene to change selection in this case to be CTRL + LMB? I realize that strays away from absolute consistency for selection, but I think it would be more strange and confusing to move paint to a different key/button. -- Jonathan Williamson Instructor - http://www.blendercookie.com (http://www.blendercookie.com/) Personal Trainer - http://www.mavenseed.com (http://www.mavenseed.com/) Portfolio - http://www.jw3d.com (http://www.jw3d.com/) On Friday, April 6, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Nathan Vegdahl wrote: The only mess-up I'm aware of is weight-painting mode. Trying to select a new bone just paints. Hmm. Yeah, this may be trickier than I thought. Also consider selecting faces/vertices for masking. For people using mice, switching painting functionality to RMB will work fine. But for tablet users it's important for LMB to be paint, since that's the one with pressure sensitivity. Ideas? --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Mike Belanger mikejamesbelan...@gmail.com (mailto:mikejamesbelan...@gmail.com) wrote: The only mess-up I'm aware of is weight-painting mode. Trying to select a new bone just paints. But if you just hit Shift+LMB, you get a list of (hopefully) nicely labelled bones. So it isn't that much of a mess-up. I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org (mailto:Bf-committers@blender.org) http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org (mailto:Bf-committers@blender.org) http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org (mailto:Bf-committers@blender.org) http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
One of the problem is with the use of manipulators, which seem to have precedence with LMB action over viewport movement On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Fabio Massaioli fabio.massai...@virgilio.it wrote: When I began to use Blender I chose to use LMB selection because I was accustomed to other applications. I had soon to switch back to RMB selection because left button functions overlapped with selection. Now I think that RMB selection is the best choice and I'd like to use it also in other applications: I can't change selection accidentally and functions are distributed evenly among the two buttons. Maybe you could solve LMB selection conflicts while keeping RMB selection and current mouse-button mapping fully functional. Fabio Massaioli On Fri, 6 Apr 2012, Nathan Vegdahl wrote: I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? That's based on the option in the user preferences. It may be true, I'm not sure. In our case, though, we're creating an entire new input map, so there's no reason it needs to be an issue. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Nathan Vegdahl ces...@cessen.com wrote: Those things said - I've been trying LMB-select for a couple of years. I have to say, I much prefer it, as LMB for select is ubiquitous in virtually all other pieces of software I use. Dare I suggest you try this out as well Nathan? Yup! I'm kind of assuming that we'll switch to LMB-select as default. Unless there are some strong arguments against, it seems like it's high time to join the rest of the world on this. And I say this as someone that is extremely used to RMB-select in Blender. --Nathan I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/**CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.**phphttp://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/**ztab1.htmhttp://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.**wikispot.org/Front_Pagehttp://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/**perspectiveproject/http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ __**_ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/**mailman/listinfo/bf-committershttp://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers __**_ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/**mailman/listinfo/bf-committershttp://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Everyone: In order to avoid cluttering the development mailing list, I'm moving to the functionality board mailing list for further discussion. There we can break this up into other topics, with different threads for each. Please follow me there if you would like to continue participating! :-) You can join the functionality board list here: http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-funboard --Nathan On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 8:30 PM, Nathan Vegdahl ces...@cessen.com wrote: (When I say keymap in this email, I mean to include the mouse as well. Basically, key/mouse-map.) A great deal of things about Blender were improved with the 2.5 project, but the keymap is still more-or-less the same as it was in the 2.4x days. This keymap has built up over the years, with new functionality being crammed into the ever dwindling unused hotkey combinations in a somewhat haphazard way. The result is a keymap that, while capable, isn't nearly as efficient as it could be. I propose to start developing a new keymap for Blender. The goal will be to update the keymap to optimize for current typical usage, and to develop some guidelines and principles that will help the keymap grow in a reasonable way in the future. It's impossible to make anything _completely_ future proof, but let's aim for a keymap that will hopefully be sufficient for the next, say, 7-10 years (if we're not all using dynamic multi-touch computers by then!). I think we should also keep in mind future UI developments. For example, it sounds like there is still an interest in adding pie menus to Blender. So to whatever extent we can design the key map to be ready to take advantage of pie menus when we get them, but without compromising usability right now, we should probably do so. Here are some (proposed) principles for designing the keymap (the order has nothing to do with importance): == Principle 0 == No principle is sacred. Including this one. Every rule has a time and place to be broken, and we shouldn't be dogmatic about things. We should instead be practical and have real user experience guide things. == Principle 1 == One thing that Blender's keymap already does well is consistency across different areas and modes of Blender. The quintessential example of this is the G, R, and S hot keys for grabbing, rotating, and scaling selections. No matter what part of Blender you are using, if those concepts apply at all, then those hot keys are what you use to do them. That kind of consistency helps users switch between different areas and modes of Blender without having to think about it. I think this is very important, and we should seek to preserve and even expand upon this. == Principle 2 == Most-used functionality should have prime real-estate on the keyboard. The more often a tool is used, the less acceptable it is for its hotkey to involve five modifier keys, three repeat key presses, and a complex mouse gesture. Ideally the most-used functionality of Blender should be a single key-press away. == Principle 3 == Hand-strain is bad. Hotkey combinations that are uncomfortable for the human hand should be avoided. == Principle 4 == Confusion is bad. Hotkey/mouse/whatever combinations that frequently cause confusion should be avoided. A good example of this are the current hot keys for object mode switching. I've been using Blender for years, and I've been doing serious rigging ever since BBB, and I _still_ get confused switching between object/edit/pose mode with armatures (I'm in pose mode right now... if I hit tab, will that take me into edit mode, or exit into object mode...? Okay, it put me in edit mode. What if I hit tab now? Will it take me back to pose mode, or exit into object mode...? Gah!). == Principle 5 == Consistency with other software. Tautology: unless there are good reasons to not adhere to an existing ubiquitous UI standard, then there is no good reason to not adhere to an existing ubiquitous UI standard. We can deal with this on a case-by-case basis. There are plenty of cases where there are good reasons to be different. But in some cases there aren't. In the latter cases, we should pull from existing standards to avoid unneccesary mental mode switching when users switch between Blender and other software (including, e.g., their operating system). This also applies to not changing things in the keymap just for the sake of changing them. We should try to be consistent with Blender's old keymap where reasonable as well. == Principle 6 == Muscle memory. The more the keymap can take advantage of people's muscle memory to speed up workflow, the better. == Principle 7 == For common OS's (Windows, OSX, popular linux desktop environments) we should seek to avoid hotkey conflicts. For example, we should probably avoid using ctrl-alt-delete as a hotkey, due to Windows. And OSX makes heavy use of the function keys for OS
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
Easy fix. Just tried it out. All we need to do is switch selection to be done with click (mouse down + mouse up) instead of just press (mouse down). In general, though, I feel like manipulators are a neglected part of blender. Will address at some point over on the funboard list. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Gianmichele Mariani g.mari...@liquidnet.it wrote: One of the problem is with the use of manipulators, which seem to have precedence with LMB action over viewport movement On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Fabio Massaioli fabio.massai...@virgilio.it wrote: When I began to use Blender I chose to use LMB selection because I was accustomed to other applications. I had soon to switch back to RMB selection because left button functions overlapped with selection. Now I think that RMB selection is the best choice and I'd like to use it also in other applications: I can't change selection accidentally and functions are distributed evenly among the two buttons. Maybe you could solve LMB selection conflicts while keeping RMB selection and current mouse-button mapping fully functional. Fabio Massaioli On Fri, 6 Apr 2012, Nathan Vegdahl wrote: I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? That's based on the option in the user preferences. It may be true, I'm not sure. In our case, though, we're creating an entire new input map, so there's no reason it needs to be an issue. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Knapp magick.c...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Nathan Vegdahl ces...@cessen.com wrote: Those things said - I've been trying LMB-select for a couple of years. I have to say, I much prefer it, as LMB for select is ubiquitous in virtually all other pieces of software I use. Dare I suggest you try this out as well Nathan? Yup! I'm kind of assuming that we'll switch to LMB-select as default. Unless there are some strong arguments against, it seems like it's high time to join the rest of the world on this. And I say this as someone that is extremely used to RMB-select in Blender. --Nathan I agree with this but I was about to try doing just this when someone on IRC warned me off of it saying it messes up to much in Blender. Was this just BS, or is there some truth to it? -- Douglas E Knapp Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies with open source software! http://douglas.bespin.org/**CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.**phphttp://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer: http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/**ztab1.htmhttp://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm Please link to me and trade links with me! Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project. http://sf-journey-creations.**wikispot.org/Front_Pagehttp://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page http://code.google.com/p/**perspectiveproject/http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/ __**_ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/**mailman/listinfo/bf-committershttp://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers __**_ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/**mailman/listinfo/bf-committershttp://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
For people using mice, switching painting functionality to RMB will work fine. But for tablet users it's important for LMB to be paint, since that's the one with pressure sensitivity. --Nathan All buttons of the pen should already be pressure sensitive, whether or not the sideswitch is used to make them MMB, RMB, or whatever. The eraser end comes through as button 1 as well (LMB by default). Unless you're talking about some strange hardware I haven't tested. Mike Erwin musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
All buttons of the pen should already be pressure sensitive, whether or not the sideswitch is used to make them MMB, RMB, or whatever. The eraser end comes through as button 1 as well (LMB by default). Unless you're talking about some strange hardware I haven't tested. For me: Tap = LMB Side-button-1 click = MMB Side-button-2 click = RMB I don't use the side buttons as modifiers, I use them as actual buttons. I thought this was standard? I've never used a tablet any other way, and I've never done any special configuration...? Then again, I am on Linux. So the default behavior may be different. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Mike Erwin significant@gmail.com wrote: For people using mice, switching painting functionality to RMB will work fine. But for tablet users it's important for LMB to be paint, since that's the one with pressure sensitivity. --Nathan All buttons of the pen should already be pressure sensitive, whether or not the sideswitch is used to make them MMB, RMB, or whatever. The eraser end comes through as button 1 as well (LMB by default). Unless you're talking about some strange hardware I haven't tested. Mike Erwin musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
That's the way I have mine set up too. The Wacom defaults on Mac/Windows are RMB and double-click, so you have to make a custom profile for blender. I was just pointing out that they're all pressure sensitive, not just LMB, and can be used for drawing. Mike Erwin musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire For me: Tap = LMB Side-button-1 click = MMB Side-button-2 click = RMB I don't use the side buttons as modifiers, I use them as actual buttons. I thought this was standard? I've never used a tablet any other way, and I've never done any special configuration...? Then again, I am on Linux. So the default behavior may be different. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Mike Erwin significant@gmail.com wrote: For people using mice, switching painting functionality to RMB will work fine. But for tablet users it's important for LMB to be paint, since that's the one with pressure sensitivity. --Nathan All buttons of the pen should already be pressure sensitive, whether or not the sideswitch is used to make them MMB, RMB, or whatever. The eraser end comes through as button 1 as well (LMB by default). Unless you're talking about some strange hardware I haven't tested. ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
The side buttons are pressure sensitive...? In a boolean sense, yes! But I meant once the pen makes contact with the tablet surface while one of the side-buttons is held down. Pressure = 0 while hovering. Mike Erwin musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
I feel like we are still miscommunicating. It sounds like your setup is: Stylus tip = LMB Hold down side-button-1 + stylus tip = MMB Hold down side-button-2 + stylus tip = RMB In other words, you use the side buttons as _modifiers_ for the tip of the stylus. Holding them down changes the meaning of the tip. Whereas my setup (and the default on Linux) is: Stylus tip = LMB Side-button-1 = MMB Side-button-2 = RMB The side buttons in this case are buttons unto themselves, they are _not_ modifiers for the stylus tip. All I do is click a side button, and it acts as a mouse button click. No need to tap the stylus tip to the tablet at all. Does that make sense? So with the setup I use, MMB and RMB have no pressure sensitivity, because they have absolutely nothing to do with the tip of the stylus where the pressure sensitivity is. --Nathan On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Mike Erwin significant@gmail.com wrote: The side buttons are pressure sensitive...? In a boolean sense, yes! But I meant once the pen makes contact with the tablet surface while one of the side-buttons is held down. Pressure = 0 while hovering. Mike Erwin musician, naturalist, pixel pusher, hacker extraordinaire ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
[Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
(When I say keymap in this email, I mean to include the mouse as well. Basically, key/mouse-map.) A great deal of things about Blender were improved with the 2.5 project, but the keymap is still more-or-less the same as it was in the 2.4x days. This keymap has built up over the years, with new functionality being crammed into the ever dwindling unused hotkey combinations in a somewhat haphazard way. The result is a keymap that, while capable, isn't nearly as efficient as it could be. I propose to start developing a new keymap for Blender. The goal will be to update the keymap to optimize for current typical usage, and to develop some guidelines and principles that will help the keymap grow in a reasonable way in the future. It's impossible to make anything _completely_ future proof, but let's aim for a keymap that will hopefully be sufficient for the next, say, 7-10 years (if we're not all using dynamic multi-touch computers by then!). I think we should also keep in mind future UI developments. For example, it sounds like there is still an interest in adding pie menus to Blender. So to whatever extent we can design the key map to be ready to take advantage of pie menus when we get them, but without compromising usability right now, we should probably do so. Here are some (proposed) principles for designing the keymap (the order has nothing to do with importance): == Principle 0 == No principle is sacred. Including this one. Every rule has a time and place to be broken, and we shouldn't be dogmatic about things. We should instead be practical and have real user experience guide things. == Principle 1 == One thing that Blender's keymap already does well is consistency across different areas and modes of Blender. The quintessential example of this is the G, R, and S hot keys for grabbing, rotating, and scaling selections. No matter what part of Blender you are using, if those concepts apply at all, then those hot keys are what you use to do them. That kind of consistency helps users switch between different areas and modes of Blender without having to think about it. I think this is very important, and we should seek to preserve and even expand upon this. == Principle 2 == Most-used functionality should have prime real-estate on the keyboard. The more often a tool is used, the less acceptable it is for its hotkey to involve five modifier keys, three repeat key presses, and a complex mouse gesture. Ideally the most-used functionality of Blender should be a single key-press away. == Principle 3 == Hand-strain is bad. Hotkey combinations that are uncomfortable for the human hand should be avoided. == Principle 4 == Confusion is bad. Hotkey/mouse/whatever combinations that frequently cause confusion should be avoided. A good example of this are the current hot keys for object mode switching. I've been using Blender for years, and I've been doing serious rigging ever since BBB, and I _still_ get confused switching between object/edit/pose mode with armatures (I'm in pose mode right now... if I hit tab, will that take me into edit mode, or exit into object mode...? Okay, it put me in edit mode. What if I hit tab now? Will it take me back to pose mode, or exit into object mode...? Gah!). == Principle 5 == Consistency with other software. Tautology: unless there are good reasons to not adhere to an existing ubiquitous UI standard, then there is no good reason to not adhere to an existing ubiquitous UI standard. We can deal with this on a case-by-case basis. There are plenty of cases where there are good reasons to be different. But in some cases there aren't. In the latter cases, we should pull from existing standards to avoid unneccesary mental mode switching when users switch between Blender and other software (including, e.g., their operating system). This also applies to not changing things in the keymap just for the sake of changing them. We should try to be consistent with Blender's old keymap where reasonable as well. == Principle 6 == Muscle memory. The more the keymap can take advantage of people's muscle memory to speed up workflow, the better. == Principle 7 == For common OS's (Windows, OSX, popular linux desktop environments) we should seek to avoid hotkey conflicts. For example, we should probably avoid using ctrl-alt-delete as a hotkey, due to Windows. And OSX makes heavy use of the function keys for OS functions. Related to this is differences in keyboard layouts. Many laptops do not have numeric keypads, and yet people are more and more frequently using laptops for serious graphics work. There are also differences in keyboard layouts between countries. Also: number of mouse buttons? People using tablets? Etc. How to deal with all of this is not obvious to me. We probably don't want to end up with the least-common-denominator, either, because that would be very limiting. In any case, it's something we should keep in mind as we proceed.
Re: [Bf-committers] Improving Blender's keymap: a proposal
A major +1 from me as well. If you'd like some help also I'm game to chip in to help develop the initial keymap. Sent from my iPad On Apr 5, 2012, at 11:10 PM, Damir Prebeg blend.fact...@gmail.com wrote: +1 for all of these principles. Especially for the Principle 0. ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
