nuts
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s734326.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: The Secret of How Microsoft Stays on Top
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of William T Goodall ... by Sean Silverthorne, Editor, HBS Working Knowledge Critics say Microsoft's incredible two-decade run at the top of the computer industry has less to do with innovation than it does with bully tactics. But new research from Harvard Business School professors Marco Iansiti and Alan MacCormack suggest a different reason: the company's ability to spot technological trends and exploit key software technologies. Well, duh, as they say. Is this supposed to be news? Hasn't MS been known forever to package and distribute technology for the market better than other companies, regardless of who was the innovator? That's always been their area of expertise, not the innovation itself. Their take: Microsoft wins through brilliant management of its intellectual property and an ability to spot and react to important trends before they take hold. LOL! Instead of disparaging Microsoft for not being a technological innovator, its competitors should be seeking to imitate its expertise at recognizing what customers will and won't pay for. Isn't it clear by now that in the marketplace, how a product is packaged (which includes the UI, APIs, feature set, etc., in addition to physical packaging) is just as important as how innovative it is? An awful lot of tech companies are Gutenburgs, slowly going bankrupt while they try to perfect their technologies, while Gates plays the part of Aldus, who built the first great publishing company by figuring out how to compromise effectively among technology, content and market innovations. A lot more people remember Gutenburg, but most of them don't realize his investors seized his work and he died bankrupt. Why do we tend to worship technology and content innovators more than market innovators? Is that a western phenomenon, a left-brain, right-brain thing? Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Today's Salon.com Cover Story...
...is an interesting examination of the US gov't's Total Information Awareness program. Several database and computer technology experts weigh in on its feasability and the statistical possibility of false accusations. The article is in Salon's premium section, and it is also over 20K and 10 pages, so I won't post it here. If anyone wants a copy sent, let me know offlist. Jon Excerpt below: - - - - - - - - - - - - Is Big Brother our only hope against bin Laden? Civil libertarians are outraged about Total Information Awareness, the government's Orwellian plan to monitor everyone, all the time. But some computer scientists say it might be the only way to save civilization. - - - - - - - - - - - - By Farhad Manjoo Dec. 3, 2002 | On Aug. 28, 2001, a 33-year-old Egyptian flight-school student named Mohamed Atta walked into a Kinko's copy shop in Hollywood, Fla., and sat down at a computer with Internet access. He logged on to American Airlines' Web site, punched in a frequent-flyer account number he'd signed up for three days before, and ordered two first-class, one-way e-tickets for a Sept. 11 flight from Boston to Los Angeles. Atta paid for the tickets -- one of which was for Abdulaziz Alomari, a Saudi flight student also living in Florida -- with a Visa card he had recently been issued. The next day, Hamza Alghamdi, a Saudi man who was also training to become a pilot, went to the same Kinko's. There, he used a Visa debit card to purchase a one-way seat on United Airlines Flight 175, another Sept. 11 flight from Boston to Los Angeles. The day after that, Ahmed Alghamdi, Hamza's brother, used the same debit card to purchase a business-class seat on Flight 175; he might have done it from the Hollywood Kinko's, too. And at around the same time, all across the country, 15 other Arab men, several of them flight students, were also buying seats on California-bound flights leaving on the morning of Sept. 11. Six of the men gave the airlines Atta's home phone number as a principal point of contact. Some of them paid for the seats with the same credit card. A few used identical frequent-flyer numbers. It's now obvious that there was a method to what the men did that August; had someone been on their trail, their actions would have seemed too synchronized, and the web of connections between them too intricate, to have been dismissed as mere coincidence. Something was up. And if the authorities had enjoyed access, at the time, to the men's lives -- to their credit card logs, their bank records, details of their e-mail and cellphone usage, their travel itineraries, and to every other electronic footprint that people leave in modern society -- the government might have seen in the disparate efforts of 19 men the makings of the plot they were to execute on Sept. 11, 2001. Right? We could have predicted it. That's the underlying assumption of Total Information Awareness, a new Defense Department program that aims to collect and analyze mountains of personal data -- on foreigners as well as Americans -- in the hope of spotting the sort of suspicious behavior that preceded the attacks on New York and Washington. The effort, sponsored by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA, is at this point only a vaguely defined research project; officials at the agency have so far declined to fully brief the public on the program and its potential cost, and the few documents made available have stressed that technologists will need several years to achieve many of TIA's goals. Civil libertarians, not unexpectedly, are already raising a ruckus, their temper brought to a flaring point by the appointment of the man tapped to head the agency: John Poindexter, Ronald Reagan's national security advisor, who was convicted (though, on appeal, acquitted) of lying to Congress during the Iran-Contra scandal. The invasion of privacy threatened by the name Total Information Awareness itself is also sure to raise constitutional questions. But computer scientists who specialize in the kinds of technologies necessary to make something like TIA work are intrigued -- even as they express concern. For some, the threat posed by terrorism is so great that the need for a comprehensive response can be equated to the need for the Manhattan Project. It's a comparison meant to convey both how dangerous and how vital to our society constant data collection may be. Frankly, I don't see any other way for us to survive as a civilization, says Jeffrey Ullman, a computer scientist at Stanford University and an expert on database theory. We're heading for a world where any creep with a grudge can build himself a dirty bomb. Al-Qaida has just broken new ground, but you can't see these things as a unique phenomenon. We have to have in place a system that makes it very hard for individuals anywhere to do such things. _
Re: The Secret of How Microsoft Stays on Top
Why do we tend to worship technology and content innovators more than market innovators? Is that a western phenomenon, a left-brain, right-brain thing? Let me answer in two parts. First, I do think that marketing and sales can have a positive effect on the ecconomy. It is important to match technological innovations to the needs of people. It doesn't help the ecconomy if one's innovations are gee wiz things in the lab that really don't apply. I've seen a number of scientists do poorly in industry becasue they are not interested in what the customer really wants. Having said that, market winners are often not really innovators. Let me go back to the example of my friends who are technology innovators. Their companies biggest competitors were great at playing the market. They invested in patent attornies who's specialty was working the limits of the examiners and the legal system. Thus, they were able to patent things that had been in the literature for years, and were able to work around my friend's patents by bluster and main force. So, they didn't need to innovate, they just needed to copy because they knew how to play the marketplace. Other aspects of market innovators comes from the Gilded age. In my old back yard, we have the Mesebi brothers who had to sell to US Steel for pennies on the dollar when Morgan got their bankers to call their notes in when their railroad from their mines to the port of Duluth were just miles from being finished. Originally, Gate's position was a market innovation. He did indeed determine what people were willing to pay for and produced it. Now, I'd argue, Microsoft is more like the trees in a climax forest. They foster an environment where competitors cannot grow. Thus, innovation is stifled. When a company is an economic success because it finds a practical way to use technological innovations, then it is a worthwhile innovation and should be recognized. When a company doesn't just competing in a market environment that is controlled by forces outside of all competitors and starts competing by exerting control over the market, then damage instead of benefit is done. Further, when a company wins because it just has better smoke and mirrors, then harm is still done, although it is far less than if it controlled the market place. In short, marketing can do one of three things 1) It can perform its legitimate function, matching technological possibilities to needs. When it does this it improves productivity and, thus, the true wealth of the world. 2) It can sell sizzle instead of steak. It adds nothing when it does this, but it can divert resources from those that can. 3) If you include the largest sense of market innovation, it can manipulate the marketplace to remove opportunities for productivity improvement. This is quite harmful. Dan M. Selling the sizzle instead of the steak can be profitable, but it does not add to pr Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: The Secret of How Microsoft Stays on Top
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Dan Minette ... Originally, Gate's position was a market innovation. He did indeed determine what people were willing to pay for and produced it. I don't think Microsoft has ever really distinguished itself with invention. DOS, which launched the company as we know it today, was essentially an acquisition. Windows was a Mac knock-off on top of DOS. Bill has always focused on market share, not innovation. And that's where his success comes from, IMO. Now, I'd argue, Microsoft is more like the trees in a climax forest. They foster an environment where competitors cannot grow. Thus, innovation is stifled. Agreed, although that's not where I was headed. Corrupting standards, such as what MS tried to do to Java a while back, stifles innovation and competition, even though it appears superficially to do the opposite. The old way of thinking is that if Microsoft innovates with a proprietary version of Java, that means there's more competition (between MS and Sun, in this case). But the overall effect on the market is to diminish innovation by fracturing a design platform, and to diminish competition by locking people into proprietary platforms, which inevitably favors the market leader. When a company is an economic success because it finds a practical way to use technological innovations, then it is a worthwhile innovation and should be recognized. When a company doesn't just competing in a market environment that is controlled by forces outside of all competitors and starts competing by exerting control over the market, then damage instead of benefit is done. Further, when a company wins because it just has better smoke and mirrors, then harm is still done, although it is far less than if it controlled the market place. I think MS is accused of smoke and mirrors fairly sometimes (when they announce they'll do a standard better -- the old embrace, extend and destroy), but unfairly other times. The unfair accusations have more to do with customers unhappy over missing features, bugs, performance, etc. In short, marketing can do one of three things 1) It can perform its legitimate function, matching technological possibilities to needs. When it does this it improves productivity and, thus, the true wealth of the world. 2) It can sell sizzle instead of steak. It adds nothing when it does this, but it can divert resources from those that can. There's an interesting question with a moral dimension -- is there legitimate value in persuading people to feel good about their purchases? Or should that be left entirely up to the customer? 3) If you include the largest sense of market innovation, it can manipulate the marketplace to remove opportunities for productivity improvement. This is quite harmful. Dan M. Selling the sizzle instead of the steak can be profitable, but it does not add to pr At the IPO party for Verity, one of our investment bankers toasted our CFO, saying he was just what we needed to go with our CEO. You've got to have steak with the sizzle, she said. Our CEO exhibited a very rare blush when he realized what she was saying. But when somebody just helped you raise many millions, I guess they have the right to call 'em as they see 'em. Or at least the ability to get away with it. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Today's Salon.com Cover Story...
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Erik Reuter Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 9:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Today's Salon.com Cover Story... Jon, Please email me a copy. By the way, why did these guys use frequent flyer numbers? Is there some benefit other than accumulating the miles (for example, does it make it easier to order a ticket no questions asked)? I'm not a frequent flyer, so maybe someone who is can enlighten me? The major perk is that as you reach certain levels of annual mileage, it becomes much easier to buy cheap upgrades to business or first class. And when you're flying 100,000 miles a year, those upgrades are really important, believe me. But I can't quite see why the terrorists cared. I'd imagine that they were simply on a budget. You can buy a round-trip ticket for 25K miles, so it doesn't take many cross-country trips to accumulate one. Of course, it is inconceivable that the account used on Sept. 11th would ever be touched again, so perhaps their goal was to reduce suspicion. Or maybe they were seeking upgrades in order to be closer to the cockpits. It's definitely much easier and more acceptable to the flight attendants for people in the forward cabins to be up and moving around. In coach, if they're serving food, you can't move around. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Secret of How Microsoft Stays on Top
- Original Message - From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 12:56 PM Subject: RE: The Secret of How Microsoft Stays on Top -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Dan Minette ... Originally, Gate's position was a market innovation. He did indeed determine what people were willing to pay for and produced it. I don't think Microsoft has ever really distinguished itself with invention. DOS, which launched the company as we know it today, was essentially an acquisition. Right. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt in seeing the market potential for DOS. The wife of the guy who wrote it didn't see the market. So, he bought it, for $3k IIRC, and then made millions on it from IBM. Windows was a Mac knock-off on top of DOS. Bill has always focused on market share, not innovation. And that's where his success comes from, IMO. Right. But I was giving him the benefit of the doubt on that too. Indeed, most financial sucess stories are like that. I thought that's what you were talking about when you discussed market innovation. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Today's Salon.com Cover Story...
From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Today's Salon.com Cover Story... Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:06:44 -0800 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Erik Reuter Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 9:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Today's Salon.com Cover Story... Jon, Please email me a copy. By the way, why did these guys use frequent flyer numbers? Is there some benefit other than accumulating the miles (for example, does it make it easier to order a ticket no questions asked)? I'm not a frequent flyer, so maybe someone who is can enlighten me? The major perk is that as you reach certain levels of annual mileage, it becomes much easier to buy cheap upgrades to business or first class. And when you're flying 100,000 miles a year, those upgrades are really important, believe me. But I can't quite see why the terrorists cared. I'd imagine that they were simply on a budget. You can buy a round-trip ticket for 25K miles, so it doesn't take many cross-country trips to accumulate one. Can't be. The article said the frequent flyer account had only been signed up for 3 days before. Unless they did an around the world in 3 days or purchased $25,000 on an American airlines credit card. :) Of course, it is inconceivable that the account used on Sept. 11th would ever be touched again, so perhaps their goal was to reduce suspicion Or maybe they were seeking upgrades in order to be closer to the cockpits. It's definitely much easier and more acceptable to the flight attendants for people in the forward cabins to be up and moving around. In coach, if they're serving food, you can't move around. Possibly, but since they had already purchased first class tix (at least Atta did), then I don't see how that could have made a difference. Jon _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???
Kevin Tarr wrote: Still haven't started yet, waiting for the mad season to be over with: Sonja, what do you mean about the weight of the plaster replaced, 700kg? Do you mean that 50kg came off a wall that had to be replaced with something else, or that was truly the weight of the material that was new? Well in total 28 bags at 25 kg each of plaster went into this house. We had about 800 kg stacked in our living room when they started. I nicked one bag for repairs and three went back to the supplier. In order for so much plaster to go in, first it had to come off. And all that with a chisel and a hammer in under three days. It is a very impressiv amount when stacked in ones living room. And If I hadn't been there myself I wouldn't have believed it. Still haven't started yet, waiting for the mad season to be over with: He thinks the nine foot ceilings are too much and should put in drop ceilings I love high ceilings, but it is worth considering the decoration you put on them to make the most of them. I did something spectacular with ours so now our rather high (we also have 9 ft ceilings downstairs) narrow long tunnellike livingroom has that feel of spaciousness and luxurious width it doesn't have by nature. Everybody is surprised when entering. I've noticed that it totally fools the eye. So it just all depends on what you do with it. Just don't put in drop ceilings. I personally dislike the look of any form of drop ceilings. Wood, panneling or other. But there is a new kind of system of 'drop'ceiling. Actually it is more like a fake ceiling. It kind of works kind of like laminated flooring only the panels are much bigger and nailed to a wooden support that has to be put onto the ceiling first. When finished it rather looks like it has been plastered really fancy and since it is synthetic it is rather easy to clean. And the best part is that you don't loose much hight or see any of the fixings. There is only a loss of 3 to 4 cm that you need to put in the pannels. It looks really great. I've seen it in a friends house and it is absolutely gorgeous. Only problem is the price. It is somewhat expensive. But I think rather worth it if you aren't good at plastering ceilings. Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???
Kevin Tarr wrote: At 10:43 AM 11/28/2002 +1000, you wrote: ...but the summers are horrid. The house has complete exposure east, west, and south. Sometime days it was 85 at 5am inside, while 70 outside. I know about getting the heat out, but sometimes can't. To keep your house as cool as possible. In the morning when it is still chilly outside open all the windows. Best even to have them open all night. Then before the sun gets hot close everything and draw the curtains. In the afternoon when it starts to cool down again you can open everything up again. It works great but you really need to keep everything closed during the daytime. Opening up just one window for a little while will ruin it. Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???
Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: Kevin Tarr wrote: Still haven't started yet, waiting for the mad season to be over with: He thinks the nine foot ceilings are too much and should put in drop ceilings I love high ceilings, but it is worth considering the decoration you put on them to make the most of them. I did something spectacular with ours so now our rather high (we also have 9 ft ceilings downstairs) narrow long tunnellike livingroom has that feel of spaciousness and luxurious width it doesn't have by nature. Everybody is surprised when entering. I've noticed that it totally fools the eye. So it just all depends on what you do with it. Just don't put in drop ceilings. I personally dislike the look of any form of drop ceilings. Wood, panneling or other. But there is a new kind of system of 'drop'ceiling. Actually it is more like a fake ceiling. It kind of works kind of like laminated flooring only the panels are much bigger and nailed to a wooden support that has to be put onto the ceiling first. When finished it rather looks like it has been plastered really fancy and since it is synthetic it is rather easy to clean. And the best part is that you don't loose much hight or see any of the fixings. There is only a loss of 3 to 4 cm that you need to put in the pannels. It looks really great. I've seen it in a friends house and it is absolutely gorgeous. Only problem is the price. It is somewhat expensive. But I think rather worth it if you aren't good at plastering ceilings. 1) We have 10-foot ceilings downstairs and 9-foot ceilings upstairs. 2) We have crown molding in most of the downstairs rooms. We also have a wallpaper border in the kitchen just under the crown molding. It's a pattern of 4 different birds. (I hated most of the borders in the wallpaper books when we were picking out wallpaper, but this one wasn't all fruity, flowery or obviously designed for either a laundry room or bathroom.) We also have some crown molding upstairs, most notably in the big open room. 3) Plaster? Not only are the walls drywall, but the ceilings are, as well. They used a thicker drywall for the ceilings than for the walls. And they did a very good job of putting it all up, but then again, they were paid extremely well to do so. I like the idea of panels similar to the ones for laminated floors. But I think those would be harder to install, gravity working against you instead of for you. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???
Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: Kevin Tarr wrote: At 10:43 AM 11/28/2002 +1000, you wrote: ...but the summers are horrid. The house has complete exposure east, west, and south. Sometime days it was 85 at 5am inside, while 70 outside. I know about getting the heat out, but sometimes can't. To keep your house as cool as possible. In the morning when it is still chilly outside open all the windows. Best even to have them open all night. Then before the sun gets hot close everything and draw the curtains. In the afternoon when it starts to cool down again you can open everything up again. It works great but you really need to keep everything closed during the daytime. Opening up just one window for a little while will ruin it. Open the windows in the afternoon/evening as soon as the outdoor temperature is cooler than the indoor temperature. Using a fan to pull the warmer air out of the house (set up a box fan in one window, blowing out) helps a lot. Close the windows as close to sunrise as possible. My mother's aunt couldn't keep the house cool when my mom was living with her (and didn't listen to my mom's advice on handling it). She went away for a week, and the temperatures were higher that week than they'd been all summer, but when she got home, my mother had it cooler in the house than it had been in a couple of months. I think after that, my mom was put in charge of keeping the house cool until she moved out. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
'Trek' boldly beams down
'Trek' boldly beams down LONDON, England (Reuters) -- Watch out for Klingons on the starboard bow -- the Starship Enterprise is landing in London's Hyde Park. Fans of the cult science fiction saga will be in seventh heaven with the opening of the biggest Star Trek exhibition ever staged. http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/11/30/trek.london.reut/index.html Jeroen Moderation is evil, why it must be eradicated van Baardwijk ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???
Julia Thompson wrote: I like the idea of panels similar to the ones for laminated floors. But I think those would be harder to install, gravity working against you instead of for you. :) Well that is just it. Because of their size and weight they are really easy to handle. Maybe I should have said floorboards instead of laminated flooring. It is something in between. You click and nail the parts into place. With sort of a tung and groove system but not exactly like it. I cannot remember the firm that makes them. But I'll be at the builders merchant a lot more often now, since we started on our bathroom this week so I can look (if I remember to). Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Dumb Thief. Really Dumb.
Jon Gabriel wrote: The 18-year-old man was arrested near the east coast city of East London after police saw him rob a woman at gun point on her way to church, police spokeswoman Michelle Matroos said. They searched him, but they didn't get (her) cell phone back. While they were in the charge room one of the officers decided to call the number. ... They heard the phone go off, and when they searched the suspect they found it in his underpants, she told Reuters. I wonder if she is getting the phone back, and if they told her where they found it. Then I wonder if she'll still want it back yuck, just the thought of where it has been and then having to put it against your ear ..shudder Sonja. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: moderation is evil, why it must be eradicated
Erik Reuter wrote: On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 04:33:51PM +0100, Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: Logically it follows that you thus admit to being scum ;o) duck and hide Logically it follows that you are a duck! No it doesn't. A bunny maybe, but not a duck. 'Your logic is flawed mister Reuter'.;o) Sonja PS: After all the verbal clobberings I have had from Erik I just couldn't resist. :o) Logically it follows that you are a superconductor! Pbrrrt. Good one! Although it could do with a smiley. Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Robert Kagan on Europe and the US
Dan Minette wrote: Why did you use the future tense? What you predicted is exactly what happened in Serbia: namely the de-europeization of Kosovo. Well, that's a different story. Kosovo came under Musilim rule when the Ottoman empire conquered it in 1455. The Ottoman empire only lost control after WWI. It's *not* a different story, because Kosovo was majoritarily Christian in the early XX century or so. Then, immigrants from Albania came, first as a minority, then as an aggressive and increasing minority, then as a majority. My bet is that the next country to be Kosovoed is Germany - a fine irony for their n--- past. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Humor: Top 5 List: SciFi
As usual, the runner-ups are better than the list itself. Jon GSV Plus they had a Logan's run reference! ;) == TOPFIVE.COM'S LITTLE FIVERS -- SCIENCE FICTION http://www.topfive.com/fivers.shtml == November 28, 2002 NOTE FROM GREG: New Sci-Fi Galactic Overlord Greg Preece here...welcome to Top Five Sci Fi...Mark II. Recently, The Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) wanted to give Steven Soderbergh's Solaris an R rating based on a shot of George Clooney's backside, or to have him cut the scene altogether. Soderbergh argued and won -- the scene stayed in -- and the film is rated PG-13. That got me to thinking... have they done this before to Sci Fi movies, and if so, was it a BAD thing? The Top 7 Cuts We're Glad They Made From Science Fiction Films 7 In Spider-Man, originally the webbing wasn't going to shoot from his *wrists*, if you know what I mean 6 The scene in which Frodo drops down to one knee and offers the ring to the lucky bachelorette. 5 Holodeck scene where Dr. Crusher and Deanna Troi are walking along the beach, and one says to the other, Do you ever not feel, well, fresh? 4 Spock soaking his hands in Palmolive after every neck pinch. 3 Star Trek V: The Final Frontier -- That whole pesky plot thing. 2 The alternate ending of Capricorn One in which OJ Simpson escapes from the government agents, gets home to his wife, and kills her. and the Number 1 Cut We're Glad They Made From Science Fiction Films... 1 The scene in which E.T. teaches Eliot that he can extend things too. [ Copyright 2002 by Chris White] [ http://www.topfive.com ] -- Cuts We're Glad They Made From Science Fiction Films RUNNERS UP list -- All the Trimmings -- The zero-gravity bathroom scene from 2001: A Space Odyssey. (Mike Sarno, Towanda, PA) E.T. showing off his alien powers by turning the FBI agents' guns into radios. (Peter Heltzer, Wheeling, IL) Battlefield Earth -- whatever they cut, it wasn't enough. (RW Lipp, Lenexa, KS) Harry Potter using his cloak of invisibility to spy on Hermione in the shower room. (Arthur Levesque, Laurel, MD) Charleton Heston's sex scene in Planet of the Apes: Work those filthy paws, you damn dirty ape! (Mike Sarno, Towanda, PA) The scene where ET sticks his finger in his crotch to make it glow. (Dave Oberhart, Durham, NC) -- Cuts We're Glad They Made From Science Fiction Films HONORABLE MENTION list -- USDA Prime Offal -- The food fight from Soylent Green. (Guy Payne, Birmingham, AL) The synchronized swimming sequence in Alien: Resurrection. (Fran Fruit, Winnetka, IL) Princess Leia and Chewbacca's make-out session in the South passage. (Dave Oberhart, Durham, NC) Logan 5 having his life clock independently appraised on the black market. (Peter Heltzer, Wheeling, IL) I am your father. - Jar Jar Binks to Anakin Skywalker (Arthur Levesque, Laurel, MD) Though riveting, Nemesis probably benefitted by the removal of the scene in which Dr. Crusher lances that painful boil on Commander Riker's butt. (Mary Ann McDonald, Sacramento, CA) Captain Decker's hissy-fit when he finds out Kirk is taking over the ship. (Dave Oberhart, Durham, NC) == [ TOPFIVE.COM'S LITTLE FIVERS ] [Top 10 lists on a variety of subjects ] [ http://www.topfive.com ] == [ Copyright 2002 by Chris White All rights reserved. ] [ Do not forward, publish, broadcast, or use ] [ in any manner without crediting TopFive.com ] == [ To complain to the moderator: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ Have friends who might like to subscribe to this list? ] [ Refer them to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] = _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Re: Robert Kagan on Europe and the US
- Original Message - From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 12:39 PM Subject: Re: Robert Kagan on Europe and the US Dan Minette wrote: Why did you use the future tense? What you predicted is exactly what happened in Serbia: namely the de-europeization of Kosovo. Well, that's a different story. Kosovo came under Musilim rule when the Ottoman empire conquered it in 1455. The Ottoman empire only lost control after WWI. It's *not* a different story, because Kosovo was majoritarily Christian in the early XX century or so. Then, immigrants from Albania came, first as a minority, then as an aggressive and increasing minority, then as a majority. The sources I read suggested that immigration from Albania has been going on for 400+ years. What was the fraction in the early 20th century? My bet is that the next country to be Kosovoed is Germany - a fine irony for their n--- past. If you extrapolate the fraction of German population that is Turkish over the last 30 years, how long will it take for Turks to become 10% of the population? At 2.3% of the population, they don't seem to be there in large numbers. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
bad quoting is evil, why it must be eradicated
-Mensagem original- De: Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Data: Terça-feira, 3 de Dezembro de 2002 19:20 Assunto: RE: Today's Salon.com Cover Story... From: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Today's Salon.com Cover Story... Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:06:44 -0800 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Erik Reuter Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 9:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Today's Salon.com Cover Story... Is this is a dispute to see how long the useless part of the message can grow? Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Robert Kagan on Europe and the US
- Original Message - From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 5:31 PM Subject: Re: Robert Kagan on Europe and the US Dan Minette wrote: The sources I read suggested that immigration from Albania has been going on for 400+ years. What was the fraction in the early 20th century? You are the statistics guy. Get your sources :-P OK at http://www.decani.yunet.com/histkim.html we have The Great 1690 Migration was a important turning point in the history of the Serbs. In Kosovo and Metohia alone, towns and some villages were abandoned to the last inhabitantThe century after the Great Migration saw a fresh exodus of the Serbs from Kosovo and Metohia, and a growing influence of ethnic Albanians on political circumstances. And Ethnic circumstances in Kosovo and Metohia in the early 19th century can be reconstructed on the basis of data obtained from the books written by foreign travel writers and ethnographers who journeyed across European Turkey. Joseph Miller's studies show that in late 1830s, 56,200 Christians and 80,150 Muslims lived in Metohia; 11,740 of the Muslims were Islamized Serbs, and 2,700 of the Christians were Catholic Albanians. However, clear picture of the ethnic structure during this period cannot be obtained until one takes into account the fact that from 1815 to 1837 some 320 families, numbering ten to 30 members each, fled Kosovo and Metohia ahead of ethnic Albanian violence. According to Hilferding's figures, Pec numbered 4,000 Muslim and 800 Christian families, Pristina numbered 1,200 Muslim, 900 Orthodox and 100 Catholic families with a population of 12,000 and... Despite the persecution and the steady outflow of people. Serbs still accounted for almost half the population in Kosovo and Metohia in 1912. So, I'd argue that in the Kosovo region, there was an Albanian majority a long way back. My bet is that the next country to be Kosovoed is Germany - a fine irony for their n--- past. If you extrapolate the fraction of German population that is Turkish over the last 30 years, how long will it take for Turks to become 10% of the population? See above :-) Well, my understanding is that the Turkish population as a % of the population has been pretty steady over the last 20 years. I know that from '98 to '00, the Turkish population actually fell. So, the extrapolated increase would probably not arrive at 10% in the 21st century. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Dumb Thief. Really Dumb.
- Original Message - From: Lalith Vipulananthan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 6:36 PM Subject: RE: Scouted: Dumb Thief. Really Dumb. Erik wrote: The question is, was it in the front or the back? *lol* Not a pleasant thought in either respect. But it does bring up an adaptation of the old Mae West line: Are you taking a call, or are you just happy to see me? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: time travel is evil, why it must be eradicated
Julia Thompson wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 11/26/2002 7:37:47 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Strangulation is a lot less bloody than doing *that*. Geez. ;) Julia A woman's hair should be long enough to strangle her man if he misbehaves. Well, that's been my philosophy for awhile. My hair comes down to below my waist. :) Julia And you were wondering why I'd bring up strangulation Well I have rather long hair as well, but found it not very practical with a toddler around. At the moment Tom is using my hair to pull himself up, strangeling me in the process. Not much fun really. I'll spair you the story of little kids throwing up and long hair. That is when I finally decided to tie it together or put it up whenever Tom is in the vicinity. Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the good side
I learned the 3 rules of plumbing some years ago, and I'll share them with you now. (1) Hot water goes on the left (2) Shit goes downhill (3) Payday's on Friday That's really all you need to know. Well, that, and (4) Make triple sure you've turned off the water before touching the pipes. Adam C. Lipscomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Silence. I am watching television. - Spider Jerusalem ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: time travel is evil, why it must be eradicated
Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 11/26/2002 7:37:47 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Strangulation is a lot less bloody than doing *that*. Geez. ;) Julia A woman's hair should be long enough to strangle her man if he misbehaves. Well, that's been my philosophy for awhile. My hair comes down to below my waist. :) Julia And you were wondering why I'd bring up strangulation Well I have rather long hair as well, but found it not very practical with a toddler around. At the moment Tom is using my hair to pull himself up, strangeling me in the process. Not much fun really. I'll spair you the story of little kids throwing up and long hair. That is when I finally decided to tie it together or put it up whenever Tom is in the vicinity. Sammy wants to use mine as a comfort object. He's content to just pull a few hairs out of my head for the purpose. I spend time looking at couch cushions and my computer chair, looking for hairs I can hand him before he starts trying to pull mine out. We haven't had any throwing-up incidents, but not *everything* he's swallowing is staying in his stomach. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the good side
Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: Sounds like working on my bathroom. snip preparatory phase Go to the bathroom and start ripping things out. snip redesign phase Start installing the tub and puncture a water pipe. snip damage repair phase Spent two days repairing it. Reconsider on how you wanted to do the job, have a change of heart and find out you still need more stuff to finish the job you haven't even really started on.. Get desperate. Yes, at this point I'm as desperate as it sounds. I hope that tomorrow will be a better day. I have high hopes that we'll manage to do something creative and productive for once since we started this insert plenty of nastyness here project. Gee - I hope you bought a LOT of deodorant before you started. Much longer without a bath/shower and the BO could get unbearable :-) Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???
Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: When finished it rather looks like it has been plastered really fancy and since it is synthetic it is rather easy to clean. How dirty can a ceiling get?? Now I feel like a slob because I have NEVER cleaned a ceiling beyond spider web removal... Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the good side
Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: I learned the 3 rules of plumbing some years ago, and I'll share them with you now. (1) Hot water goes on the left (2) Shit goes downhill (3) Payday's on Friday That's really all you need to know. Well, that, and (4) Make triple sure you've turned off the water before touching the pipes. Especially make sure you've turned off the water to the toilet before you start mucking with its innards. (Dan never *did* get a coherent explanation as to why I was mopping up the bottom of the shelf with a towel, but I think he figured it out. And that was 2 houses ago, and I haven't neglected *that* detail since.) I got good enough with toilets, I was able to fix the problem at my mother's aunt's house with less than $10 worth of parts. Saved her a plumber's bill, which she was happy about. Oh, and before you disconnect the water pipe going into the toilet, having a decent-sized bowl to stick under it to catch the last bit that didn't leave the tank when you flushed after turning off the water works a lot better than just a mess of towels, but have the towels handy, just in case. (A bucket may be too deep.) Julia who is hoping not to have to make any toilet adjustments for a good long time to come ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???
Russell Chapman wrote: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: When finished it rather looks like it has been plastered really fancy and since it is synthetic it is rather easy to clean. How dirty can a ceiling get?? Now I feel like a slob because I have NEVER cleaned a ceiling beyond spider web removal... Neither have I. When it gets *that* bad, just repaint. (Although there was a patch at my mother's house that *really* could have used cleaning for a number of years, as we'd touch it as we went up the stairs to the second floor, and since the ceiling had a texture to it, cleaning it wasn't going to be easy. I think that maybe the buyers of that house got an allowance for repainting the ceilings!) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the good side
Julia Thompson wrote: Julia who is hoping not to have to make any toilet adjustments for a good long time to come What is it with this list and toilets? It's like we've outlawed the nazis and toilets have snuck in as our default level that all threads will eventually reach... :-) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Toilets! Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the good side
Russell Chapman wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: Julia who is hoping not to have to make any toilet adjustments for a good long time to come What is it with this list and toilets? It's like we've outlawed the nazis and toilets have snuck in as our default level that all threads will eventually reach... :-) Toilets are useful things that all of us come in contact with several times a day, and when they malfunction, it's a problem. (Notice that a significant portion of the toilet talk is about ones that aren't working optimally, at the very least?) Why is that any different from anyone discussing their computer problems? (At least we haven't had anything resembling an OS war on the toilet front!) Julia who has childproofing stuff for her computer and her toilets, none of which is installed at the moment, but can be fairly quickly if it becomes an issue ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Toilets! Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the goodside
Julia Thompson wrote: Toilets are useful things that all of us come in contact with several times a day, and when they malfunction, it's a problem. So are refridgerators, lights, stairs, watches, chairs, keys etc etc but barely a whisper on these... I think we should acknowledge the unique nature of our list, but not embrace it... ;-) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Toilets! Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the goodside
Julia Thompson wrote: who has childproofing stuff for her computer and her toilets, none of which is installed at the moment, but can be fairly quickly if it becomes an issue How do you childproof a toilet? (I'll leave the how do you toilet train a child with a childproofed toilet question until Sammy is older). Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Toilets! Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, thegoodside
Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: Julia wrote: (At least we haven't had anything resembling an OS war on the toilet front!) That's probably because you're one of those lamers that uses the low-volume toilets, that you have to flush 3 times to get everything out of the bowl. Me? I go out and find Old Skool toilets, that have at least a 5 gal capacity. Not that I need it, but just in case Adam C. Lipscomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Making new strides in reaching the lowest common denominator Ah, but have you tried a high-end Japanese-manufactured low-volume toilet? Those work very nicely, and use less water. Best of both worlds. :) Julia just waiting now for Ronn's inevitable comment ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
hex grid
http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/gameprog.html ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!
From: Adam C. Lipscomb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] http://homepage.mac.com/msparby/iMovieTheater5.html *blink* *twitch* Make it stop This link no longer works. So, what was it? Or shouldn't I ask... - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: hex grid
The Fool wrote: http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/gameprog.html Anything in particular? I assume you were intending that the reader go to the section on hexagonal grids; if there was a particular link off that section that you thought would be of particular interest, please point it out. I ended up skimming down to the Rants section, and hit the link there, and then went from that page to another: http://www.telegraph-road.org/writings/cpp_plea.html which I found to be quite interesting and enlightening. Even if I didn't get what you intended from the Hexagonal Grids section, I got *something* out of the exercise, and for that I'm glad. Thank you. Julia who is not a programmer but who gets to listen to one talk about programming on a regular basis ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: ignore: hex grid
http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/gameprog.html ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: hex grid
From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool wrote: http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/gameprog.html Anything in particular? I assume you were intending that the reader go to the section on hexagonal grids; if there was a particular link off that section that you thought would be of particular interest, please point it out. Was a mistake. I sent it here by accident. I ended up skimming down to the Rants section, and hit the link there, and then went from that page to another: http://www.telegraph-road.org/writings/cpp_plea.html which I found to be quite interesting and enlightening. Even if I didn't get what you intended from the Hexagonal Grids section, I got *something* out of the exercise, and for that I'm glad. Thank you. Meant for diffent group. There are some fascinating articles if ye art into algorithms. This link is nice: http://www.gamedev.net/reference/design/features/balance/ Julia who is not a programmer but who gets to listen to one talk about programming on a regular basis ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: hex grid
The Fool wrote: From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool wrote: http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/gameprog.html I ended up skimming down to the Rants section, and hit the link there, and then went from that page to another: http://www.telegraph-road.org/writings/cpp_plea.html which I found to be quite interesting and enlightening. Even if I didn't get what you intended from the Hexagonal Grids section, I got *something* out of the exercise, and for that I'm glad. Thank you. Meant for diffent group. There are some fascinating articles if ye art into algorithms. Well, I don't consider the time I took following it to be wasted. :) I'm interested in algorithms, but I'm not sure it's enough to get me to read any further this evening. (I'm going to fall asleep in front of the computer if I don't get up soon and start heading for bed, which will be a *much* more comfortable place to fall asleep) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!
From: Adam C. Lipscomb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] It was Leonard Nimoy and some groovy chicks singing The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins. It's much, much worse than it sounds. At least 2D20 of SAN loss. Ah, I've seen that before. It was posted on another list I'm on. It is pretty horrid. - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
1 liter
http://www.vwvortex.com/news/04_02/04_16/index.shtml The world's most economical car is being shown to shareholders attending the 42nd annual general meeting of Volkswagen AG in Hamburg. It is a '1-liter' car, that is to say covers 100 kilometers (approximately 239 mpg) on only this amount of fuel. The prototype, built in conditions of great secrecy despite many claims that such a technological feat was impossible, was driven under its own power from Volkswagen's plant in Wolfsburg to the meeting venue in Hamburg. Dr. Ferdinand Piech, currently Chairman of the Board of Management, drove this research vehicle the whole distance on April 14th. Despite poor weather conditions, the distance was completed at what must surely be a record-breaking fuel consumption figure and is certainly almost unbelievable: only 0.89 liter per 100 kilometers. Once again, Volkswagen has demonstrated its technological leadership in a most impressive way. The journey started from Volkswagen AG's administrative tower block in Wolfsburg on Sunday morning at 9 a.m., and took place in rainy weather. The chosen route was along the A39 'autobahn' to the junction at Konigslutter, then via the A2 and A7 'autobahns' and across the River Elbe bridges to the finishing point at the Hotel Vier Jahreszeiten on Hamburg's Binnenalster lake. This successful run was the deserved reward for many weeks of test driving. Without the slightest fault developing, the experimental vehicle, its body unpainted in order to save weight, and bearing the highly significant number plate 'WOB - L 1', competed the 230 km (143 mile) long journey. Its average speed was 75 km/h (46.6 mph) and the destination was therefore reached in only three hours. Of the contents of the fuel tank, which holds 6.5 liters (1.7 gallons), only 2.1 liters (.55 gallons) were found to have passed through the engine's fuel injection system. The world's first '1-liter' car licensed for road use resembles a sports car more than a typical research vehicle in appearance. Since the concept calls for a reduced frontal area to minimize exposure to the airstream, the 3.65 m (12 ft.) long body is exceptionally narrow and low-built. Developed in the wind tunnel and built entirely from composite carbon-fiber reinforced material, it has a width of only 1.25 m (49.2 inches) and is just over a meter high (39 inches). The body is unpainted in order to save weight. The reinforced plastic outer skin conceals a space frame that is not constructed from aluminum but from magnesium, an even lighter metal. The 'one-liter car' is powered by a single-cylinder diesel engine located in the mid-engined position ahead of the rear axle and combined with an automated direct-shift gearbox. The crankcase and cylinder head are of aluminum, using a monobloc construction principle. A direct-injection, naturally aspirated diesel, with a capacity of 0.3 liter, it develops 6.3 kW (8.5 bhp) at 4000/min and is equipped with an advanced high-pressure pump-injector fuel supply system. Despite these modest figures the car is surprisingly lively thanks to its weight of only 290 kilograms (639 lb.). The suspension uses light-alloy components and the car runs on 16-inch low-friction tires optimized to keep rolling resistance to a minimum. The wheels too are made from an extremely light composite material to harmonize perfectly with the ultra-economical power train. The interior is sporting in style and extremely compact, but provides sufficient space for the driver and one passenger; it is reached by folding back the dome-shaped hinge-up door. The seats are also of extremely lightweight material, with magnesium frames and high-strength but none the less comfortable tensioned woven fabric instead of the classic upholstery. Although weight-saving construction methods have been applied throughout, safety was none the less given close attention during every phase of the 'one-liter' concept car's development. It has an anti-lock braking system, the ESP electronic stability program and a driver's airbag among its safety features. Deformable elements at the front and the space frame construction provide the same standards of impact and overturning protection as in a GT racing car. It is the sports-car style concept of the 'one-liter car' that distinguishes it from the spartan research vehicle such as one might have expected: this is a specially designed high-tech vehicle, as demonstrated by many of its features. For a start, the seating arrangement puts the driver and passenger centrally, as in a classic racing car, but one behind the other in tandem. The mid-engined layout puts the power unit transversely behind them, ahead of the rear axle. The lightweight suspension, of complex design, uses double wishbones at the front and a De Dion rear axle layout. In conjunction with the low center of gravity and low weight, the car steers in a very agile manner. The project team has thus succeeded most impressively in creating a car
Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the good side
- Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 7:10 PM Subject: Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the good side - Original Message - From: Adam C. Lipscomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 7:00 PM Subject: Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the good side I learned the 3 rules of plumbing some years ago, and I'll share them with you now. (1) Hot water goes on the left (2) Shit goes downhill (3) Payday's on Friday That's really all you need to know. Well, that, and (4) Make triple sure you've turned off the water before touching the pipes. One think that I learned from my dad: make quadruple sure the high voltage is off before you work on it. :-) I once screamed at a nice woman because I was working on a high current high voltage switching system, and had turned it all off nicely. She turned it back on behind my back while I was working. That was before the days of lock out Dan M. Been there! xponent Electrician Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
