Re: Bullying and Battering
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My brain hurts.and I don't want to be tested on it later. But oh what fun readings from them both. Two intellectual lights much much better than any old flame. So where are the marshmallows and Hershey bars and graham crackers?!? But lets skip the battered and fried Rocky Mountain Oysters... ;} Debbi Sing Around The Campfire Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
At 01:21 PM 6/1/04, Deborah Harrell wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My brain hurts.and I don't want to be tested on it later. But oh what fun readings from them both. Two intellectual lights much much better than any old flame. So where are the marshmallows and Hershey bars and graham crackers?!? But lets skip the battered and fried Rocky Mountain Oysters... ;} Debbi Sing Around The Campfire Maru 99 bottles of ridiculously expensive bottled water on the wall, 99 bottles of ridiculously expensive bottled water. If one of those bottles should happen to fall, we're out two bucks, and have 98 bottles of ridiculously expensive bottled water on the wall. 98 bottles of ridiculously expensive bottled water on the wall, 98 bottles of ridiculously expensive bottled water. If one of those bottles should happen to fall, we're out two bucks, and have 97 bottles of ridiculously expensive bottled water on the wall. ...ad nauseum... Updated For The 21st Century Maru -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
My brain hurts.and I don't want to be tested on it later. But oh what fun readings from them both. Two intellectual lights much much better than any old flame. William Taylor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
To expand on the idea of continuity vs. revolution. Gary seems to be suggesting that there must be a zero-sum belief here; either you believe in continuity or you don't. I completely reject this. In certain cases, there is continuity. In others there is not. When I was discussing continuity with regards to classical learning, this is a social or intellectual continuity. Which has nothing to do with political continuity (or not). It reminds me of the left vs. right type arguments I see on the list often; that in order to be on the left you must be a flaming liberal, or to be on the right you must be an evil republican (or vice versa...I don't really know what the differences are and don't care for them anyway). In short, there can't be a medium or a spectrum. This is one of the reasons I object to such classifications, and additionally, I do not fit into such a classification. Damon. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Bullying and Battering
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] My brain hurts.and I don't want to be tested on it later. But oh what fun readings from them both. Two intellectual lights much much better than any old flame. William Taylor Ahh, yes, truly said. Do you think it is sufficiently illuminating to be classified as a Renaissance? Andrew ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Andrew said: Ahh, yes, truly said. Do you think it is sufficiently illuminating to be classified as a Renaissance? An Enlightenment, surely. Rich GCU One Line Reply ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My brain hurts.and I don't want to be tested on it later. Is your brain feeling battered? :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Damon Agretto wrote: To expand on the idea of continuity vs. revolution. Gary seems to be suggesting that there must be a zero-sum belief here; either you believe in continuity or you don't. I completely reject this. In certain cases, there is continuity. In others there is not. Is it kind of like intellectual punctuated equilibrium? That's what it looks like to me -- there's a prevailing worldview for a period of time, and then a shift over a relatively short period, and then a different stable worldview for awhile. But the shifts seem to be coming faster recently. Maybe we're heading toward a singularity. Julia how many ideas did I throw into that one, now? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
In a message dated 5/31/2004 7:20:18 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My brain hurts.and I don't want to be tested on it later. Is your brain feeling battered? :) If I say yes, are you going to throw it into the deep frier? Vilyehm --- And no answering that you can't find a monk intellectual enough to call deep. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
On Mon, 31 May 2004 02:03:02 -0400, Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Saturday he seems to write that a period of nearly four hundred years is too short a time for a lively literary and scholarly environment to develop under Islam in Spain but the two - three hundred years of Catholicism must have been the roots of it. ??? Perhaps I am misinterpreting something there. I'd better quote that: Yes, you are misinterpreting. What I was pointing out is that the scholarly liveliness of the Medieval Muslim world could only be based on the material it recovered from the old Roman areas, areas that were now Christian. They recovered such materials and reintroduced them into Europe at a later date. Just some brief interjections before BBQ. It is not clear and seems unlikely that the Moors in Spain were using materials found in Spain. As a center for learning for the Islamic world, why Islamic progress dimmed after Spain was reconquered, it had access to materials from all over the Mediterranean. I would say this argument is not only contradictory but Nothing contradictory about it if you consider where these materials came from. To continue then, now that I had earlier agreed with him about there not being a Dark Ages, Damon writes that Europe was too busy trying to survive to develop a lively literary or scholarly movement during this period (specifically the so-called Dark Ages). ??? Just because there was no lively intellectual development during this period does not automatically make it a dark age. There WAS literary and scholarly development during this period, but not on the same level as before or after. But there were other things going on too, the aformentioned fusion of Classical, Germanic, and Judeo-christian mentalities. It was a time of ferment and development, and a time of struggle. But it was not dark either. I had already agreed it was not Dark. I am not sure how a lack of lively intellectual development as you state and again your literary and scholarly development... but not on the same level as before or after could be described then? Are you suggesting it was the Dim Ages? No, what I'm saying is that the influence of Augustine's and others writing caused a fundamental shift in attitudes towards classical learning. I certainly do see a break here in mentalities. Perhaps, I would have to study this more. It may be that it was an improvement, recognizing and using Plato was useful at this time was an improvement from tossing all the pagans out. Recognizing and using Aristotle centuries later was another improvement. Note that it was Aristotelian arguments used against Galileo later so while this was progress it was a slow evolution and had further to go. Damon has objected more than once that the Church was engaged in a struggle to survive I never objected to that. You are misrepresenting what I said. A misunderstanding here. You had objected to my arguments using as a basis that the Church was engaged in a struggle to survive. indicates he acknowledges it was suppressing liturgy and laws it disagreed with. Which is not the same as supressing classical learning either. I don't know, where do you draw the line? Some classical writers and philosophers would be out of favor with the Church, like Aristotle was until he was accepted centuries later. I'm still agreeing with Damon. A Dim but not Dark Age and a very slow evolution toward somewhat more openness in ideas and debate. Of course this implies that before Augustine the Church was very dark. Gary Denton - Pool and BBQ Maru #1 on Google for lemming lesbian spank inferno ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 5/31/2004 7:20:18 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My brain hurts.and I don't want to be tested on it later. Is your brain feeling battered? :) If I say yes, are you going to throw it into the deep frier? Vilyehm --- And no answering that you can't find a monk intellectual enough to call deep. Damn. There goes the easy response. :) (Actually, the only monk I've really known was deep. And a very interesting person.) OK, how's this: No, we're using the deep fryer for the turkey this year, so it would have to be the roasting pan. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Damon said: And yet the people living it it continued to refer to themselves as Romans (or, specifically, Romaioi), people outside the empire referred to them as Romans (the term Romanians comes up often when referring to the Byzantine Empire). Whether or not the fragment of Empire that existed at the end resembled the empire is academic; there was a clear line of succession from the original Roman Emperors, and the last Byzantine Emperor was an inheritor of that. And Mehmed II considered himself the successor of the Byzantine emperors without any disruption of continuity. (As, for that matter, did the Latin emperors of Byzantium centuries earlier) He proclaimed himself the protector of the Orthodox church and appointed a patriarch in the manner of a Byzantine emperor. The Ottomans took over much of the administrative machinery of the Byzantine state. I can't cite a reference, but the Ottomans may even have considered themselves Romans; the earlier Seljuk turks of the Sultanate of Rum (i.e. Rome) certainly considered themselves succesors of Rome, a new elite controlling a large part of an ancient empire. But regardless of all of this, the events of 1453 were not a collapse, but rather the fall of a single city. Again, you can make plenty of arguments for or against. But in academic circles 476 is the recognized or agreed upon date for the final end of the Empire in the West. It was never clear whether the empire in the West was in its final decline or whether it could be revived. Certainly there were elements that hoped so, and we are fairly certain that despite the movement of the Germans into the remnants of the Empire, the Imperial government and beauracracy continued to function, even AFTER the deposition of Romulus Augustulus. Yes, indeed. All of which is why I objected here too to your use of the word collapse. All that happened in 476 was that Odoacer gave Romulus Augustulus a pension and sent him off to live out his days in comfortable obscurity. There wasn't a collapse of any kind, there was just a Gothic chieftain ruling directly rather that through a puppet emperor (as others had before). But this date is most accepted for the fact that the Imperial Regalia for the Western empire was returned to the Emperor Zeno in Constantinople, making a reality what had already happened. On the other hand, Odoacer requested the title Patricius from Zeno, and received it in 480 after the death of Nepos, whom Zeno had continued to regard as legitimate western Emperor. In this sense, there was a continuity of empire after 476. Zeno was sole emperor, and formally ruled parts of the west through Odoacer. If this was an empty formality, it was no more so than the earlier situation of Alaric, who was both Gothic chieftain and magister militum of the Eastern empire (and terror of the West, no doubt). While we're talking about history, I have a question for you: if I am only going to read five books about the Middle Ages, which five should they be to gain the greatest understanding? Rich Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Those are all great points, and illustrates that history is an interpretive and analytical art. While I certainly hve no objections to your agruments, regardless I still see the final Byzantine emperors as inheritors of old Roman authority, and besides which, having commonly accepted dates are very useful for a frame of reference. While we're talking about history, I have a question for you: if I am only going to read five books about the Middle Ages, which five should they be to gain the greatest understanding? I would definitely start with a general, broad overview of the period. There are several books of this type, but I prefer Hollister's _Medieval_ Europe for accessability, scholarship, and ease of reading (Hollister can sometimes be a little humorous, believe it or not). Second, I would look at something about feudalism to understand how tis functioned in larger medieval society. I reccommend Carl Stephenson's _Medaeval Feudalism_, which is simply written and very clear (and designed for beginning students). Perhaps you might want to follow up with Bloch's _Medieval Society_, which is altogether excellent (Bloch is a big name in the field, and is very influential along with his colleagues in the _Annales_ school of historical methodology) 3rd, I would look at something that deals with church history in a broad way.A good title to look at is _Western Society and the Church in the Middle Ages_ by Southern. After that, you can really branch out into a number of different directions, in whatever really interests you. If you're interested in daily life, picking up a number of Gies Gies' _Life in a Medieval (Village, Castle, City, etc) would be interesting. If you have an interest in military history, currently Contamine's _Medieval Warfare_ is still the standard. Oh yes, picking up a copy of Haskin's _The Rennaisance of the 12th Century_ is good too. I always reccommend picking up a primary source to read at the end to get an idea as to the mentality of people during this age. I like Galbert of Bruges _The Murder of Charles the Good_ since its in a period I'm very interested in (early 12th C), has lots of action, and is insightful in a number of ways. But other books, such as _The Book of Margery Kempe_ and anything by Christian de Pisan would be good. Damon. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Damon said: Those are all great points, and illustrates that history is an interpretive and analytical art. While I certainly hve no objections to your agruments, regardless I still see the final Byzantine emperors as inheritors of old Roman authority, and besides which, having commonly accepted dates are very useful for a frame of reference. That's fair enough too. By the way, which date or period would you consider as marking the beginning of the Byzantine empire? Thank you for your recommendations. I've added all of the ones that are in print in the UK to my Amazon History wish-list, except for the Bloch which was on it anyway. I'm definitely going to have to get to some of these quite soon, as the only book I've read on the Middle Ages is Keen's _History of Medieval Europe_, which I review at http://www.theculture.org/rich/sharpblue/archives/84.html (Bloch is a big name in the field, and is very influential along with his colleagues in the _Annales_ school of historical methodology) Speaking of Annales, I recently read Braudel's _The Mediterranean in the Ancient World_, which I thought was quite brilliant (especially those parts on the most ancient civilisations of the Mediterranean). It's pleasantly concise too (it is only its length that has so far discouraged me from reading his _Civilization and Capitalism_, which was recommended by Brad amongst others). Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
That's fair enough too. By the way, which date or period would you consider as marking the beginning of the Byzantine empire? Well, I guess it depends on how you define what the Byzantine Empire is. As I mentioned in the previous post, even despite the fact that the Empire's language, customs, culture, and attitutes were decisively Greek in nature, the people still thought of themselves as being Romans. I think this is because of the transformation of the meaning Roman during the Late Imperial period, and why authority in the West collapsed in the middle to latter 5th C. It was no longer sufficient to withdraw and shorten borders; everyone was Roman then. But if I were to date it, it would certainly be after the reign of Justinian, probably sometime in the 7th C (perhaps at the end of Emp. Heraclius?). Nice review BTW. I also liked the one on the Late Roman Empire. I've been looking around for such a book... Speaking of Annales, I recently read Braudel's _The Mediterranean in the Ancient World_, which I thought was quite brilliant (especially those parts on the most ancient civilisations of the Mediterranean). It's pleasantly concise too (it is only its length that has so far discouraged me from reading his _Civilization and Capitalism_, which was recommended by Brad amongst others). Huh. I'll have to dig out my lecture notes on Braudel. If you're interested in this school, there's a nice book on it called _The French Historical Revolution: The Annales School 1929-89_ by Peter Burke. Damon. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Let me gather some threads here and make a too long cloak. This started when Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] objected to the term Dark Ages which I had used as a jovial afterthought. He also objected to my dates, the first dates I used being Dark Ages and later the fall of the Roman Empire and the Renaissance. No matter that he does not believe in any of those terms I used them and so must be using them as he with a degree in history defines: AD 476 and AD 1500. The fact that i disagree with these dates is immaterial. I then agreed with him that the Dark Ages seems a misnomer, no Darker than previous times, and agreed with him that the intellectual Renaissance, which he doesn't believe in but he suggested a date anyway, really had it roots in the 12th Century. My agreements and agreeableness seem to bring forth longer disagreements from him. We had a digression into book burning which occurred earlier than this period, which he implied he didn't believe happened and wanted citations but then seemed to say Oh, those books which the State or Church needed to burn. Maybe I should use his real words Of course such works would be suppressed. Saturday he seems to write that a period of nearly four hundred years is too short a time for a lively literary and scholarly environment to develop under Islam in Spain but the two - three hundred years of Catholicism must have been the roots of it. ??? Perhaps I am misinterpreting something there. I'd better quote that: Gary: While some Greek knowledge was preserved in the Eastern Empire you are minimizing the importance of Toledo and Sicily when they fell from Muslim hands. These both took place just before 1100 and most of Aristotle's work in biology. the Arab knowledge of alchemy, as well as much else arrived in Europe from these conquests. Damon I am not minimizing these centers. However, again look at your dates. Spain did not fall until 711, and by the late 5th C or so was fully converted to Catholicism. Sicily not until more than a century later. For there to be a lively literary and scholarly environment there must have been something there to begin with. I would say this argument is not only contradictory but also suggests that it is too soon for most of the universities in America to be centers of new knowledge and learning. (I would like to agree with him here but just can't even if we start redefining 'new knowledge and learning.') I will point out that the Archbishop of Toledo after the reconquest supported translating the Arabic works, my nod to the church. I also note Toledo and Cordova were under the control of Rome only by their recognition of Visigoth (Arian until 589) control. Let me add a quote here: From Spain came the philosophy and natural science of Aristotle and his Arabic commentators in the form which was to transform European thought in the thirteenth century. The Spanish translators made most of the current versions of Galen and Hippocrates and of the Arab physicians like Avicenna. Out of Spain came the new Euclid, the new algebra, and treatises on perspective and optics. Spain was the home of astronomical tables and astronomical observation (Charles Homer Haskins, The Renaissance of the Twelfth Century, p. 289) I had noted much earlier in this thread the 40,000 manuscripts in Rome. In the great library of Cordova alone, there were some 600,000 manuscripts. Paper, a material still unknown to the west, was everywhere. There were bookshops and more than seventy libraries. (James Burke, The Day the Universe Changed) - recommended if popular account of science moments and changes in knowledge. To continue then, now that I had earlier agreed with him about there not being a Dark Ages, Damon writes that Europe was too busy trying to survive to develop a lively literary or scholarly movement during this period (specifically the so-called Dark Ages). ??? So a lack of literature and scholarship only creates a so-called Dark Ages, perhaps I should agree with him again and see how he responds. Maybe I should just let Damon argue with himself. Expanding on the Augustine debate he writes In the fourth century controversy had raged over the Church's policy towards classical learning, but with time MODERATE VIEW proposed by ST AUGUSTINE [emphasis mine] prevailed that 'pagan' learning should be tolerated as long as it was kept subordinate to scripture and put to good Christian use... and more interesting stuff which is somewhat different than what I wrote I see no change after Augustine, it was not until around the time of Aquinas that there was a change in attitudes toward ancient knowledge. So I believe he is arguing here that because Augustine believes that not all pagan learning should be destroyed but only that which the Church finds unable to tolerate or use the Church is promoting learning during this time. ??? Doesn't that support that the church was burning the books before then and with Augustine improved that
Re: Bullying and Battering
We had a digression into book burning which occurred earlier than this period, which he implied he didn't believe happened and No, I had believed you were trying to suggest the Church was doing this AFTER the collapse of Roman authority in the West. citations but then seemed to say Oh, those books which the State or Church needed to burn. Maybe I should use his real words Of course such works would be suppressed. Of course they would be supressed because they were matters of liturgy that were opposed to what the leadership of the time thought was right. The stakes, in their minds, was not matters of philosophical disagreement, but of heaven and hell. Saturday he seems to write that a period of nearly four hundred years is too short a time for a lively literary and scholarly environment to develop under Islam in Spain but the two - three hundred years of Catholicism must have been the roots of it. ??? Perhaps I am misinterpreting something there. I'd better quote that: Yes, you are misinterpreting. What I was pointing out is that the scholarly liveliness of the Medieval Muslim world could only be based on the material it recovered from the old Roman areas, areas that were now Christian. They recovered such materials and reintroduced them into Europe at a later date. I would say this argument is not only contradictory but Nothing contradictory about it if you consider where these materials came from. To continue then, now that I had earlier agreed with him about there not being a Dark Ages, Damon writes that Europe was too busy trying to survive to develop a lively literary or scholarly movement during this period (specifically the so-called Dark Ages). ??? Just because there was no lively intellectual development during this period does not automatically make it a dark age. There WAS literary and scholarly development during this period, but not on the same level as before or after. But there were other things going on too, the aformentioned fusion of Classical, Germanic, and Judeo-christian mentalities. It was a time of ferment and development, and a time of struggle. But it was not dark either. Maybe I should just let Damon argue with himself. Hardly. So I believe he is arguing here that because Augustine believes that not all pagan learning should be destroyed but only that which the Church finds unable to tolerate or use the Church is promoting learning during this time. ??? No, what I'm saying is that the influence of Augustine's and others writing caused a fundamental shift in attitudes towards classical learning. I certainly do see a break here in mentalities. I'll answer a minor point raised - I was redefining a Renaissance to agree with Damon about the 12th century rise in scholarship. Damon is free with the term Renaissance, citing several of them, for one who doesn't believe in them but stresses the continuity of, what he doesn't define, I'll call 'whatever'. I was quoting from sources for one. I was also illustrating that the so-called Rennaisance of the 16th C was not the first, further illustrating my belief in a continuity of interest in Classical Learning. Damon has objected more than once that the Church was engaged in a struggle to survive I never objected to that. You are misrepresenting what I said. indicates he acknowledges it was suppressing liturgy and laws it disagreed with. Which is not the same as supressing classical learning either. Richard also noted the strange way Damon stresses continuity and then starts tossing around collapses, and I would add Renaissances. Again, quoting from sources. Would you rather I not take direct quotes? See my point above. Damon. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
On Sat, 29 May 2004 01:08:31 -0400, Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your response was: Believing it is impossible for the Church to retard learning between 500-1000 because it barely survived is silly. It was destroying libraries and books before that time. Cite please. Specifically how the church was burning libraries and books. This is contrary to anything I've heard. I posted some citations on burning books and libraries before that time which is what you asked.. This is all fine Gary, but again look at your dates and again look at the transition within Christianity. The role of Christians post Augustine, FREX, was as *preservers* of this legacy. A lot has been made about Muslims and preservation of knowledge, but where did this come from? The answer, of course, is from works preserved by Christians in the Eastern Empire. If there really was a concerted effort to destroy this legacy, would we have access to it at all? I see no change after Augustine, it was not until around the time of Aquinas that there was a change in attitudes toward ancient knowledge. While some Greek knowledge was preserved in the Eastern Empire you are minimizing the importance of Toledo and Sicily when they fell from Muslim hands. These both took place just before 1100 and most of Aristotle's work in biology. the Arab knowledge of alchemy, as well as much else arrived in Europe from these conquests. So just what proportion of ancient literature has been lost? This is difficult to answer but we can get a rough estimate from the size of ancient libraries. Archaeology suggests that the biggest contained 20,000 or so scrolls and the Great Library of Alexandria itself is most reliably said to have contained 40,000. On the other hand, all the extant pagan classical works would not fill much more than a thousand scrolls so we have been left with about 5% of what might be found (barring repeat copies) in Rome. Furthermore, in sections of your post, you cite information such as the suppression of Arianism and Gnosticism. You post this without external reference to what was going on in Christianity at the time. Of course such works would be supressed since it was the belief of the mainstream that this was perilous and grossly incorrect. It was the belief of the official state religion of a totalitarian regime that information it disapproved of should be suppressed. If by mainstream you mean majority, until the successful campaigns of Justinian (died 565) Arianism, not Catholicism was the majority religion of Europe. So again, by posting this you create an unequal and only half-story, and minimize the efforts of later generations to preserve that information. I am reminded of Alas, Babylon which mimicked this preservation by having the Church canonization of a Jew and the manuscript illumination of his grocery shopping list by barely literate monks who had no clue to the works they were saving after a nuclear war. I acknowledge that the Irish monks on the remote outskirts of the Empire had a program to preserve manuscripts but the major recent book on the subject is overrated and does not even mention sources besides the Irish monks, i.e. Jews, Muslims, the Eastern Empire. The point you are trying to make is that there was no Dark Ages, there was no Renaissance, was no Enlightenment, and that the Church preserved and spread knowledge and contributed to scientific advancement? I do not blame the Church for the Fall of Rome but as a totalitarian creation that survived the fall of Rome it preserved knowledge it wanted, suppressed other knowledge, and let non-spiritual knowledge it was not interested in lapse. Gary wanting to have illuminated shopping lists #1 on Google for liberal news ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
- Original Message - From: Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 5:59 AM Subject: Re: Bullying and Battering On Sat, 29 May 2004 01:08:31 -0400, Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was the belief of the official state religion of a totalitarian regime that information it disapproved of should be suppressed. If by mainstream you mean majority, until the successful campaigns of Justinian (died 565) Arianism, not Catholicism was the majority religion of Europe. At the least Arianism was constantly being fought as a heresy *of* Catholicism in much of France (and parts of Germany IIRC). But Arianism was basically a form of Catholicism and is strongly tied to the cult of the Magdelene. There are variations of Arianism that survive to the current period by some accounts. So again, by posting this you create an unequal and only half-story, and minimize the efforts of later generations to preserve that information. I am reminded of Alas, Babylon which mimicked this preservation by having the Church canonization of a Jew and the manuscript illumination of his grocery shopping list by barely literate monks who had no clue to the works they were saving after a nuclear war. Should that not be A Canticle For Liebowitz? I acknowledge that the Irish monks on the remote outskirts of the Empire had a program to preserve manuscripts but the major recent book on the subject is overrated and does not even mention sources besides the Irish monks, i.e. Jews, Muslims, the Eastern Empire. Seanchan Torpiest for example. xponent Broad Subject Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Gary Denton wrote: On Sat, 29 May 2004 01:08:31 -0400, Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So again, by posting this you create an unequal and only half-story, and minimize the efforts of later generations to preserve that information. I am reminded of Alas, Babylon which mimicked this preservation by having the Church canonization of a Jew and the manuscript illumination of his grocery shopping list by barely literate monks who had no clue to the works they were saving after a nuclear war. Er, that was _A Canticle for Leibowitz_, not _Alas, Babylon_. If you can't get *that* right, I'm viewing the rest of your argument with more suspicion. I believe that Damon knows what he's talking about; I'm not sure you do. I wish you better luck in persuading me of your views in the future. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
On Sat, 29 May 2004 08:20:48 -0500, Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gary Denton wrote: On Sat, 29 May 2004 01:08:31 -0400, Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So again, by posting this you create an unequal and only half-story, and minimize the efforts of later generations to preserve that information. I am reminded of Alas, Babylon which mimicked this preservation by having the Church canonization of a Jew and the manuscript illumination of his grocery shopping list by barely literate monks who had no clue to the works they were saving after a nuclear war. Er, that was _A Canticle for Leibowitz_, not _Alas, Babylon_. If you can't get *that* right, I'm viewing the rest of your argument with more suspicion. I believe that Damon knows what he's talking about; I'm not sure you do. I wish you better luck in persuading me of your views in the future. :) Julia Ah, you are right of course, I blame the early hour and not having read both in a couple of decades. Gary slaps his head, mutters more coffee #1 on Google for liberal news ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
I see no change after Augustine, it was not until around the time of Aquinas that there was a change in attitudes toward ancient knowledge. While some Greek knowledge was preserved in the Eastern Empire you are minimizing the importance of Toledo and Sicily when they fell from Muslim hands. These both took place just before 1100 and most of Aristotle's work in biology. the Arab knowledge of alchemy, as well as much else arrived in Europe from these conquests. I am not mimimizing these centers. However, again look at your dates. Spain did not fall until 711, and by the late 5th C or so was fully converted to Catholicism. Sicily not until more than a century later. For there to be a lively literary and scholarly environment there must have been something there to begin with. Irregardless, Europe was too busy trying to survive during this period to develop a lively literary or scholarly movement during this period (specifically the so-called Dark Ages). From _The Oxford History of Medieval Europe: Througout the early Middle Ages in both east and west scholars and writers set themselves the aim of emulating the literary canons and educational norms inherited from antiquity. To see the cultural history of this period in terms of the fragile survival of a classical tradition is in some ways misleading as it overlooks its limited but significant oral achievements, not to mention an immense oral tradition now virtually lost to us, but does reflect the priorities of early medieval intellectuals. The start of our period was marked by an astonishing breadth and vitality in cultural life. Most partsof the Medditerrenean retained a degree of stability and prosperity and th senatoral aristocracy continued to cultivate the ideal of Otium (liesure) involving the composition and copying of traditional secular liturature... In the fourth century controversy had raged over the Church's policy towards classical learning, but with time MODERATE VIEW proposed by ST AUGUSTINE [emphasis mine] prevailed that 'pagan' learning should be tolerated as long as it was kept suborndinate to scripture and put to good Christian use... When Justinian closed down the Platonic Academy of Athens in 529 he did so not to eliminate a threat, but to advance his ideal of a uniform Christian community... The Neoplatonic notions which dominated Late Roman philosophy had already been absorbed into Christian thought... In education th standard curriculum of antiquity was systemized in a traties by Martianus Capella and then transmitted to the medieval west as the doctrine of the sevel liberal arts by Cassiodorus. So I believe this contends that indeed there was a break between the Late Empire The point you are trying to make is that there was no Dark Ages, there was no Renaissance, was no Enlightenment, and that the Church preserved and spread knowledge and contributed to scientific advancement? Yes, but more specifically, the point I'm trying to make is that after the collapse of Roman authority in the West (keep in mind that the Roman Empire per se did not collapse until 1453 when the Turks under IIRC Suleyman the Magnificent conquered Constantinople) the church served to preserve the cultural and intellectual traditions through incorporation into spiritual learning, that the term Dark Ages is overly pessimistic and negative view unfair to a period that was just as dynamic and important as the preceding periods, but in different ways (I could go into a discussion of the CULTURAL history of this period, and why it's just as important, but to summarize this period is important since it coaleced the ideals of classical, Germanic, and Judeo-christian culture to give us the foundations of the so-called Western Tradition). Morover, my point with regards to the Rennaisance and later periods is that this transition was in no way revolutionary (View 1 of the Rennaisance followers..those that believe it was revolutionary and unlike earlier periods), but rather evolutionary stretching back several centuries, with no clear break (View 3...View 2 would be the moderates). But I think the biggest problem I have with everything you've discussed is the fact that you are *non*-specific with your dates. I already know the dates; those come easy. FREX, when you talk about the period between the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of the Rennaisance, even if you do not give specific dates, both periods are firmly locked in or have a commonly accepted reference point for discussion. We know the Roman Empire in the West collapsed in 476 when Odoacar.The commonly accepted reference point for the beginning of the Rennaisance has always been around 1500. Although this date could change with regards to the country being examined, there is a concensus that after this period is the Rennaisance. So when you discussed repression of learning during this period you are clearly lumping Aquinas and others in with the adage of the Dark Age. It appears to me,
Re: Bullying and Battering
Further: In reality, therefore, the Benedictines had an enormous impact on the world they renounced. Their schools produced most of the literate Europeans who kept the art of writing al;ive during the early Middle Ages. They serced as a cultural bridge, transcribing and preserving the writings of Latin antiquity in a society that was largely nonliterate. p.69 And on the Northumbrian Rennaisance: The encounter between Celtic and Roman Christianity in Seventh-century Northumbria produced a notable cultural awakening known as the 'Northumbrian Rennaisance.' The two traditions influenced and energized one another to such an eztent that the evolving civilization of the CHristian West reached a pinnacle in this remote land. Boldly executed illuminate manuscropts in a curvilinear style both Celtic and Germanic in inspiration, a new script, a vigorous vernacular epic poetry, and impressive architecture -- all contributed to the luster of Northumbrian culture in the late 600s and early 700s. The Northumbrian Rennaisance centered on the great monasteries founded by Irish and continental missionaries at Lindisfarne, Wearmouth, Jarrow, and elsewhere By Bede's death in 735, the Northumbrian kings hsd lost their poltical hegemony, and Northumbrian culture was beginning to fade. But the tradition of learning was carried from England back to the Continent during the eighth century by a group of Anglo-saxon Benedictine missionaries. p.73 From _Medieval Europe : A Short History_ by C. Warren Hollister. Damon. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Gary said: It was the belief of the official state religion of a totalitarian regime that information it disapproved of should be suppressed. In what sense was the Dominate a totalitarian regime? It seems to me that under Diocletian and his successors the Roman Empire became increasingly hard to govern despite (or perhaps because of!) the vast increase in bureaucracy. All the evidence suggests that the Roman state failed miserably to establish a command economy (instituting ever harsher penalties for those selling above the fixed prices was ineffectual, and such punishments were in any case hardly ever carried out). There's also a lot of evidence for rise (or resurgence) of regional cultures and languages in the period, and the thriving of many small towns at the expense of the major cities. If anything, the fourth and fifth centuries were a time during which the centralised state became weaker (and, of course, in the west it entirely ceased to exist in the late fifth century). This certainly wasn't an age of totalitarianism in the modern sense. Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Damon said: (keep in mind that the Roman Empire per se did not collapse until 1453 when the Turks under IIRC Suleyman the Magnificent conquered Constantinople) and later We know the Roman Empire in the West collapsed in 476 when Odoacar. For someone who is stressing continuities elsewhere, this talk of collapse sticks out! What was left of the Roman Empire in 1453 is surely not deserving of the words Roman or Empire. If you want to choose a single date at which the Eastern empire collapsed, the disaster at Manzikert in 1071 would surely be a better choice, even if some remnant did limp on for centuries longer. (Or, for that matter, the loss of many of the Asian and African provinces to the forces of Islam many centuries before.) And what ended in 476 was the line of Augusti, which was more a formal recognition of the new order in western Europe than anything else. More important dates might be the defeat at Adrianople in 378, the battle of Chalons in 451 the murder of Flavius Aetius in 454. But again, there is no sudden dramatic collapse, just a long series of defeats, disasters and displays of idiocy, incompetence and treachery. Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
For someone who is stressing continuities elsewhere, this talk of collapse sticks out! What was left of the Roman Empire in 1453 is surely not deserving of the words Roman or Empire. And yet the people living it it continued to refer to themselves as Romans (or, specifically, Romaioi), people outside the empire referred to them as Romans (the term Romanians comes up often when referring to the Byzantine Empire). Whether or not the fragment of Empire that existed at the end resembled the empire is academic; there was a clear line of succession from the original Roman Emperors, and the last Byzantine Emperor was an inheritor of that. And what ended in 476 was the line of Augusti, which was more a formal recognition of the new order in western Europe than anything else. More important dates might be the defeat at Adrianople in 378, the battle of Chalons in 451 the murder of Flavius Aetius in 454. But again, there is no sudden dramatic collapse, just a long series of defeats, disasters and displays of idiocy, incompetence and treachery. Again, you can make plenty of arguments for or against. But in academic circles 476 is the recognized or agreed upon date for the final end of the Empire in the West. It was never clear whether the empire in the West was in its final decline or whether it could be revived. Certainly there were elements that hoped so, and we are fairly certain that despite the movement of the Germans into the remnants of the Empire, the Imperial government and beauracracy continued to function, even AFTER the deposition of Romulus Augustulus. But this date is most accepted for the fact that the Imperial Regalia for the Western empire was returned to the Emperor Zeno in Constantinople, making a reality what had already happened. Damon. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
On Thu, 27 May 2004 05:44:08 -0700 (PDT), Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Believing it is impossible for the Church to retard learning between 500-1000 because it barely survived is silly. It was destroying libraries and books before that time. Cite please. Specifically how the church was burning libraries and books. This is contrary to anything I've heard. Who skinned Hypatia alive with sharpened oyster shells, then dragged her body behind a cart until she was dead? Ah, but its much more complex than just that. This was before the acceptance of moderation as proposed by some of the early Church Doctors such as Augustine, in which there was no threat to Christianity by classical learning. Besides which, in order for this to support Gary's thesis, this would have to have taken place at the behest of the church leadership; rather it seems to have been undertaken by a radical group that took it into their own hands. Furthermore, there may have been a bit more of politics involved in her alienation than just Pagan science. The early censorship of the Church is common knowledge - look up censorship in any encyclopedia. This included burning libraries and books. ~~~ Constantine the Great set the pattern of religious censorship that was to be followed for centuries by ordering the burning of all books by the Greek theologian Arius in 333 AD. After the emperor Theodosius made Christianity the established religion of the empire, the Roman government and the church began to persecute both pagans and Christian heretics who deviated from orthodox doctrine or practice. The pope was recognized as the final authority in church doctrine and government, and the secular state used force to compel obedience to his decisions. Books or sermons that were opposed to orthodox faith or morals were prohibited, and their authors were punished. Pope Gelasius issued the first catalog of forbidden books in 496. http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761559522/Censorship.html I'll get back to book burnings in a minute. For more on Hypatia: Her contemporary Socrates Scholasticus (Socrates Scholasticus (c.380 - c.450) was a Greek Christian church historian, born at Constantinople.) in his Ecclesiastical History portrays her as a follows: There was a woman at Alexandria named Hypatia, daughter of the philosopher Theon, who made such attainments in literature and science, as to far surpass all the philosophers of her own time. Having succeeded to the school of Plato and Plotinus, she explained the principles of philosophy to her auditors, many of whom came from a distance to receive her instructions. On account of the self-possession and ease of manner, which she had acquired in consequence of the cultivation of her mind, she not unfrequently appeared in public in presence of the magistrates. Neither did she feel abashed in going to an assembly of men. For all men on account of her extraordinary dignity and virtue admired her the more. The letters written by Synesius (c. 373-c. 414), of Cyrene, Bishop of Ptolomais, to Hypatia, whom he loved and respected as a teacher, grants some insights into the power struggle of the time. In one of them, he complains about dogmatic thinkers: Their philosophy consists in a very simple formula, that of calling God to witness, as Plato did, whenever they deny anything or whenever they assert anything. A shadow would surpass these men in uttering anything to the point; but their pretensions are extraordinary. In this letter, he also tells Hypatia that the same men had accused him for storing copies of unrevised copies of books in his library. This indicates that books were rewritten to suit the prevailing Christian dogma, which may also relate to the difficulty of finding accurate contemporary information about Hypatia's life and death. And [after an alleged Jewish massacre was punished by the Christians and the Jews expelled from the city] a multitude of believers in God arose under the guidance of Peter the magistrate -- now this Peter was a perfect believer in all respects in Jesus Christ -- and they proceeded to seek for the pagan woman who had beguiled the people of the city and the prefect through her enchantments. And when they learnt the place where she was, they proceeded to her and found her seated on a (lofty) chair; and having made her descend they dragged her along till they brought her to the great church, named Caesarion. Now this was in the days of the fast. And they tore off her clothing and dragged her [till they brought her] through the streets of the city till she died. And they carried her to a place named Cinaron, and they burned her body with fire. And all the people surrounded the patriarch Cyril and named him 'the new Theophilus'; for he had destroyed the last remains of idolatry in the city. Socrates Scholasticus complements this account by stating that, while she was still alive, Hypatia's flesh was torn off using oyster
Re: Bullying and Battering
On Fri, 28 May 2004 23:12:14 -0500, Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Van Biema, The Lost Gospels, Time Magazine , December 22, 2003 . *The Catholic Church is in fact notorious for actively censoring and eagerly destroying almost anything outside of its rather narrow, control-oriented belief system. Correction - The quote by David Van Biema should be The scarcity of lost texts... did not reflect unpopularity in their day so much as a later campaign by the church to eliminate what it deemed misguided teaching. The other quote was from Dan Ward, a fan of lost Christian teachings. Gary That seemed a little strident for Time Denton #1 on Google for liberal news ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
This is all fine Gary, but again look at your dates and again look at the transition within Christianity. The role of Christians post Augustine, FREX, was as *preservers* of this legacy. A lot has been made about Muslims and preservation of knowledge, but where did this come from? The answer, of course, is from works preserved by Christians in the Eastern Empire. If there really was a concerted effort to destroy this legacy, would we have access to it at all? Furthermore, in sections of your post, you cite information such as the suppression of Arianism and Gnosticism. You post this without external reference to what was going on in Christianity at the time. Of course such works would be supressed since it was the belief of the mainstream that this was perilous and grossly incorrect. So again, by posting this you create an unequal and only half-story, and minimize the efforts of later generations to preserve that information. Damon. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
At 09:11 PM 5/26/04, Damon Agretto wrote: The dates I posted were the Fall of Rome and the rebirth of reason known as the Renaissance. Which is commonly accepted as being between 500 and 1500. You may not have said it outright, but you certainly implied it, especially as you did not define precisely what you mean. And, of course, this period (ALL of it) is the Middle Ages. Believing it is impossible for the Church to retard learning between 500-1000 because it barely survived is silly. It was destroying libraries and books before that time. Cite please. Specifically how the church was burning libraries and books. This is contrary to anything I've heard. Who skinned Hypatia alive with sharpened oyster shells, then dragged her body behind a cart until she was dead? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Who skinned Hypatia alive with sharpened oyster shells, then dragged her body behind a cart until she was dead? Ah, but its much more complex than just that. This was before the acceptance of moderation as proposed by some of the early Church Doctors such as Augustine, in which there was no threat to Christianity by classical learning. Besides which, in order for this to support Gary's thesis, this would have to have taken place at the behest of the church leadership; rather it seems to have been undertaken by a radical group that took it into their own hands. Furthermore, there may have been a bit more of politics involved in her alienation than just Pagan science. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Cults vs Religions, was Bullying and Battering
From: David Land [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] What's that come to in skoshes? How about in smoots? - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Ronn Blankenship wrote: I have the same problem when it comes to topics including the face on Mars, Planet X, the Moon landings were faked, etc. The longer it takes to get another Moon landing, the more I believe that those in the 60s and 70s were faked. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Cults vs Religions, was Bullying and Battering
Keith Henson wrote: I'm not sure I agree, but I like the biological parallels here! Ghod knows I have been making them long enough. My first article on this subject was published in Analog Aug 1987. ... Taking your last point first, I'd say that it would now be more useful to have a safe religion as a cult agonist, blocking the religion receptor site, than it was in the past. For there are many more cults around now than there were in ages past, which increases the danger of infection. You might be right on this point, but there were a lot of dangerous cults about in the past. For example the children's crusades in 1212 resulted in a few tens of thousands dying. So the claim would be that during the Dark Ages in Europe (Hi, Damon!), when the Catholic church was the only religion, that people were more susceptible to cultic memes, just as monocultured plants are more susceptible to pests and diseases? (The reason being that diseases which do successfully attack individuals can more easily spread throughout an homogenous population.) The Flagellantes seem to be a cult that was optimized to spread through the climate of the time. (Although if all one needs to do is block a receptor, the blocking does not have to be done by a religion. I seem to use a dogma-free amalgam of several religions as a blocker. : ) ) My favorite is the Church of the SubGenius--which is distantly related to (of all things) scientology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius No, the Church of Bob doesn't work for me, since it seems too obviously a joke. (Your link does not seem to give any connection between Bob and L. Ron Hubbard.) You might get more mileage out of an analogy between cults and diseases, rather than parasites. A cult would be like a germ that was too virulent, and killed its host. A religion would be like a chronic/harmless infection, which did not interfere too much with the life of its host. There is a reason to use the parasite model. As I mentioned in the clip above, it is a common progression over evolutionary time for a parasite to become a mutualistic symbiote. Disease and parasites are often the same thing, malaria for example. Got me, what is the difference between disease organisms and parasites? If the individuals are sufficiently large, we call them parasites, and if they are small enough, we don't? ... Most apocalyptic cults turn inward a bit before the predicted apocalypse. This seriously interferes with their ability to recruit more members. And so on... Correct, but *after* the date some of them get more into recruiting. The JWs are an example. I think the more common behavior is pushing back the predicted date of the apocalypse. But I guess one can only do this so many times. ---David ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Cults vs Religions, was Bullying and Battering
So the claim would be that during the Dark Ages in Europe (Hi, Damon!), Why you little... Damon. __ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Cults vs Religions, was Bullying and Battering
On 26 May 2004, at 12:45 pm, David Hobby wrote: Keith Henson wrote: Correct, but *after* the date some of them get more into recruiting. The JWs are an example. I think the more common behavior is pushing back the predicted date of the apocalypse. But I guess one can only do this so many times. Pushing back the apocalypse for over a century! sounds better than wrong lots of times :) Maybe they should use it in their literature... -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons. - Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Cults vs Religions, was Bullying and Battering
-- From: David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] Keith Henson wrote: Got me, what is the difference between disease organisms and parasites? If the individuals are sufficiently large, we call them parasites, and if they are small enough, we don't? My pet cat is clearly a parasite. I would be hard pressed to desribe him as a disease. ... Most apocalyptic cults turn inward a bit before the predicted apocalypse. This seriously interferes with their ability to recruit more members. And so on... Correct, but *after* the date some of them get more into recruiting. The JWs are an example. I think the more common behavior is pushing back the predicted date of the apocalypse. But I guess one can only do this so many times. Indeed: http://www.freeminds.org/history/list.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Cults vs Religions, was Bullying and Battering
David Hobby wrote: I think the more common behavior is pushing back the predicted date of the apocalypse. But I guess one can only do this so many times. Indeed: http://www.freeminds.org/history/list.htm Amazing. Especially for people who claim to speak with the authority of God, given that Jesus said No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Matthew 13:32). From the above document: ... this measurement [of a length of an interior passageway discovered inside the Pyramids - it has no reference in Scripture] is 3416 inches, symbolizing 3416 years ... Let's see... that's about 285 feet, and also about 87 meters, which means that they missed the end by a little more 3000 years. It's also about 9000 of my little pinkie widths, which means we have a long time to wait. Dave What's that come to in skoshes? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
On Tue, 25 May 2004 13:25:01 -0700 (PDT), Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: YHO is not accurate. The dictionaries were used because Dark Ages is a recognized term with which you disagree. Not being a historian I am not obligated to use more than general terms. Which is why I posted a correction. Where in the Hell did I even use any dates!? When I asked for definitions and you posted them. The dates I posted were the Fall of Rome and the rebirth of reason known as the Renaissance. As you point out, historians at this time disagree about the time of the Renaissance and you fall into a modern camp denying there was even a Renaissance. A brief checking of current encyclopedias online indicates the term is still in current use in their historical articles but now note that a few are beginning to refer to it as a cultural Renaissance. That my use of the terms is acceptable also should have been obvious as the current history professor I quoted uses those terms. That's fine. I was pointing out that that is not a universal belief within the community. OK, and I have learned that. I am left to speculate if there is some conservative or religious basis to such strong objection to the term Dark Ages and denial of the Renaissance. No. The objection is the some 100 years of belief in pop history that the Middle Ages were the Dark Ages (def 2). It still pervades pop history, though things are getting better. The conservative/religious comment is silly. As far as dates are concerned: you make the allegation that the Church hindered intellectual growth because of its power, bias, etc. This would be impossible during the early period between 500-1000, as the Church barely survived. The period between 1000-1300, which is part of the aformentioned 12th C rennaisance, clearly contradicts your statement as this was the major period of Church power and reform. Believing it is impossible for the Church to retard learning between 500-1000 because it barely survived is silly. It was destroying libraries and books before that time. I agree with you that the Church was at its all time high in political power between 1000-1300 but this is irrelevant. It was in this period that the seeds of a Renaissance were sprouting with the rise of scholars not necessarily agreeing with the Church in the Church controlled universities. Perhaps some intellectual movements in the Church such as Aquinas being condemned for heresy in 1277 but being canonized in 1323 are influential. The rise of the study of Aristotle and a decline in Plato might also help scientific thought and lead to Bacon and Newton. Upon further investigation I agree with your objection to the term Dark Ages. It is difficult to tell when that period would begin or where 'Light' would be before it. Gary - Enlightened maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Cults vs Religions, was Bullying and Battering
At 07:45 AM 26/05/04 -0400, David wrote: Keith Henson wrote: snip You might be right on this point, but there were a lot of dangerous cults about in the past. For example the children's crusades in 1212 resulted in a few tens of thousands dying. So the claim would be that during the Dark Ages in Europe (Hi, Damon!), when the Catholic church was the only religion, that people were more susceptible to cultic memes, just as monocultured plants are more susceptible to pests and diseases? That might be a valid analogy. Though, I would expect Europe of 1212 to be less of a monoculture then than it is today. On the other hand, the children's crusades came from rather small areas. snip My favorite is the Church of the SubGenius--which is distantly related to (of all things) scientology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius No, the Church of Bob doesn't work for me, since it seems too obviously a joke. (Your link does not seem to give any connection between Bob and L. Ron Hubbard.) Try scientology discordians OTO masons mormons in Google. snip There is a reason to use the parasite model. As I mentioned in the clip above, it is a common progression over evolutionary time for a parasite to become a mutualistic symbiote. Disease and parasites are often the same thing, malaria for example. Got me, what is the difference between disease organisms and parasites? If the individuals are sufficiently large, we call them parasites, and if they are small enough, we don't? The most common distinction is that of persistence. Disease is more often acute and is cleared by the immune system. A parasite has figured a way to limit the effectiveness of the immune system and persists for years to a lifetime. Parasites cause persistent disease. ... Most apocalyptic cults turn inward a bit before the predicted apocalypse. This seriously interferes with their ability to recruit more members. And so on... Correct, but *after* the date some of them get more into recruiting. The JWs are an example. I think the more common behavior is pushing back the predicted date of the apocalypse. But I guess one can only do this so many times. Look up When Prophecy Fails by Festinger, Riecken and Schachter for an example of a typical cult. Keith Henson ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
The dates I posted were the Fall of Rome and the rebirth of reason known as the Renaissance. Which is commonly accepted as being between 500 and 1500. You may not have said it outright, but you certainly implied it, especially as you did not define precisely what you mean. And, of course, this period (ALL of it) is the Middle Ages. Believing it is impossible for the Church to retard learning between 500-1000 because it barely survived is silly. It was destroying libraries and books before that time. Cite please. Specifically how the church was burning libraries and books. This is contrary to anything I've heard. Damon. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Believing it is impossible for the Church to retard learning between 500-1000 because it barely survived is silly. It was destroying libraries and books before that time. Cite please. Specifically how the church was burning libraries and books. This is contrary to anything I've heard. Damon. But you weren't there! So you can't say it didn't happen! Kevin T. - VRWC Waiting for the photos ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Cults vs Religions, was Bullying and Battering
At 09:38 PM 26/05/04 -0400, I wrote: Try scientology discordians OTO masons mormons in Google. Sorry, Google.groups. Keith ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
On Mon, 24 May 2004 21:39:40 -0400, Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The other usage of Dark Ages is the general view of the poverty, superstitious ignorance, and stagnation during this period. This persisted until the rebirth of reason known as the Renaissance. This opened up a new era of optimism, prosperity, and scientific progress, all made possible by the philosophies of secular humanism and scientific method. Gary, again, what are your sources and list your evidence for this. Let's just clip from a general internet site: The Early Medieval Era is sometimes still called the Dark Ages. This epithet originated with those who wanted to compare the earlier period unfavorably with their own so-called enlightened age. Modern scholars who have actually studied the time period would not so readily use the label, since passing judgment on the past interferes with a true understanding of the time and its people. Yet the term is still somewhat apt for the simple reason that we know relatively little about events and material culture in those times. http://historymedren.about.com/library/weekly/aa072502f.htm Definitions: Dark Ages, a period of stagnation and obscurity in literature and art, lasting, according to Hallam, nearly 1000 years, from about 500 to about 1500 A. D.. See Middle Ages, under Middle. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. dark ages n : the period of history between classical antiquity and the Italian Renaissance [syn: middle ages] Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dark+agesr=67 Dr. Steven Kreis gives a nice modern overview online in The History Guide and he has no problem with your 12th century Renaissance and neither do I. http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/ancient.html#table Historians working on the problem of the Renaissance have never been able to decide when the period began, or even when it ended, although they all admit that a Renaissance did indeed occur. Some see its beginning in the 12th century, while others, in the 14th century. An even larger question looms: if there was such a thing as the Renaissance, regardless of when it began or ended, for whom was the Renaissance, a Renaissance? Did it affect all people at the same time? Or, was its impact felt only on a relatively small number of people in Northern Italian city-states, France, England and Holland? http://www.historyguide.org/earlymod/lecture1c.html The traditional definition of around the 15th century as the Renaissance is useful because that is the foundation of the secular ideas of the modern nation-state as well as the first recognized 'modern' geniuses like Da Vinci and Machiavelli (much as I dislike the latter's ideas.) However, the 12th Century with the rise of more secularist scholars actually fits in better with my statements above. http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture26b.html FYI I have a history degree and specialized in the European Middle Ages. I also don't believe in the Rennaisance (at least the pop definition of the term, i.e. the period between 1500 and 1600). The reasons are too lengthy to go into here, but mostly stem from the evidence that the growth of the scientific method, humanism, learning, etc did not begin after 1500 but much much earlier. Specifically, I'd reccommend you look at the 12th C Rennaisance, and there are a number of good books I can reccommend on the subject. Indeed this was the 2nd such Rennaisance to occur (the first was in the mid-750s or so) so to suggest the MA were the Dark Ages are wildly inaccurate on BOTH definitions. Damon, and lets not get into a discussion of the growth in superstition in the post 1500 era... Agreed, lets not. Gary agreeable maru 31 on Google for Easter Lemming ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
On 24 May 2004, at 11:14 pm, Deborah Harrell wrote: Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathar Second, Bruderhof abuse in Google lists almost 3000 pages. Try http://www.perefound.org/jr_cn.html or Google Bruderhof critics From the latter site: Young women confront the issues of powerlessness and gender inequality in spiritual and temporal roles, and severe limits are placed upon their aspirations and participation in the community. Women especially bear the burdens of Gelassenheit, resignation and self-renunciation to the will of God, as enforced by the patriarchy. What IS it with various religious factions and their profound fear of women? Sheesh, even among the baboons at least females determine ranking in the society... Breaking up families, not allowing dissenters to see their family members, no access to outside influences - how loving, how Christ-like... Debbi Sounds Like A Cult To Me Maru :P All religions are cults. They may seem like harmless gobbledygook and balderdash featuring stunning idiocies like conversations with imaginary gods or fondling poisonous snakes, but behind the prattling nonsense and grotesque rituals lies real evil. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs. -- Robert Firth ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Dark Ages, a period of stagnation and obscurity in literature and art, lasting, according to Hallam, nearly 1000 years, from about 500 to about 1500 A. D.. See Middle Ages, under Middle. Does not agree with available evidence, nor what professional historians say about it. Quoting from a dictionary is IMHO NOT a good debating technique! Historians working on the problem of the Renaissance have never been able to decide when the period began, or even when it ended, although they all admit that a Renaissance did indeed occur. Some see its beginning in the 12th century, while others, in the 14th century. An even larger question looms: if there was such a thing as the Renaissance, regardless of when it began or ended, for whom was the Renaissance, a Renaissance? Did it affect all people at the same time? Or, was its impact felt only on a relatively small number of people in Northern Italian city-states, France, England and Holland? http://www.historyguide.org/earlymod/lecture1c.html Not entirely true. 3 different viewpoints on this issue: a) those who see a definite disconnect with earlier periods worthy of the term Rennaisance, b) those that se the Rennaisance as a transitional period between the MA and the early-modern period, and c) those who do not see strong evidence for a Rennaisance. I fall in the latter camp; many of the elements pointed out as being typically Rennaisance are indeed elements carried over from the MA, or developed therein. However, the 12th Century with the rise of more secularist scholars actually fits in better with my statements above. http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture26b.html Then you should be more precise with your dates! This, specifically, as well as the rest of the High MA is why I strongly disagree with your stance. Damon. __ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
On 25 May 2004, at 1:48 pm, Damon Agretto wrote: Dark Ages, a period of stagnation and obscurity in literature and art, lasting, according to Hallam, nearly 1000 years, from about 500 to about 1500 A. D.. See Middle Ages, under Middle. Does not agree with available evidence, nor what professional historians say about it. Quoting from a dictionary is IMHO NOT a good debating technique! Very true! One of the foibles of English is that experts and specialists use the same words that are in the dictionary with more particular or slightly different meanings, or even completely different meanings. I see the word 'deprecated' used every day, but not in any of the main senses given in a dictionary... -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons. - Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
At 12:17 PM 25/05/04 +0100, William T Goodall wrote: On 24 May 2004, at 11:14 pm, Deborah Harrell wrote: snip Breaking up families, not allowing dissenters to see their family members, no access to outside influences - how loving, how Christ-like... Debbi Sounds Like A Cult To Me Maru :P All religions are cults. They may seem like harmless gobbledygook and balderdash featuring stunning idiocies like conversations with imaginary gods or fondling poisonous snakes, but behind the prattling nonsense and grotesque rituals lies real evil. The distinction between cults and religions is real and useful. Cults are outright parasites, religions are the same mental parasites that have co-evolved with their hosts long enough to become more useful than harmful. Takes about 300 years. And at least one function of religions is to fill up the religious meme receptor in human mental space to make infection with a dangerous parasite less likely. (This may be less true in today's memetic ecosystem than it was in the past.) Keith Henson ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Additionally, I googled the name Hallam and came up with a Henry Hallam, 1777-1859. If this is the same person referred to in the dictionary definition, I think its pretty obvious that his research is very much obsolete, and doesn't take into account the research or evidence discovered of the last 150 years, and indeed it would appear he was not a professional historian, and indeed predated the period of the Professional Historians. Additionally, many historians of this period were both wildly innaccurate with regards to the European Middle Ages, being overly fawning on either the Classical age or the Rennaisance. Therefore, I would dismiss this definition. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 24 May 2004, at 11:14 pm, Deborah Harrell wrote: Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Try http://www.perefound.org/jr_cn.html or Google Bruderhof critics From [the above] site: Young women confront the issues of powerlessness and gender inequality in spiritual and temporal roles, and severe limits are placed upon their aspirations and participation in the community. Women especially bear the burdens of Gelassenheit, resignation and self-renunciation to the will of God, as enforced by the patriarchy. What IS it with various religious factions and their profound fear of women? Sheesh, even among the baboons at least females determine ranking in the society... Breaking up families, not allowing dissenters to see their family members, no access to outside influences - how loving, how Christ-like... Debbi Sounds Like A Cult To Me Maru :P All religions are cults. They may seem like harmless gobbledygook and balderdash featuring stunning idiocies like conversations with imaginary gods or fondling poisonous snakes, but behind the prattling nonsense and grotesque rituals lies real evil. rolls eyes, amused snort Smacking one of your favorite hobby-horses again, Willie m'dear...you're going to beat it to death one of these days! Debbi whose mostest favoritest hobby-horse IS horses -- alive, thank-you-very-much! ;) __ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
On Tue, 25 May 2004 05:48:05 -0700 (PDT), Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dark Ages, a period of stagnation and obscurity in literature and art, lasting, according to Hallam, nearly 1000 years, from about 500 to about 1500 A. D.. See Middle Ages, under Middle. Does not agree with available evidence, nor what professional historians say about it. Quoting from a dictionary is IMHO NOT a good debating technique! YHO is not accurate. The dictionaries were used because Dark Ages is a recognized term with which you disagree. Not being a historian I am not obligated to use more than general terms. Historians working on the problem of the Renaissance have never been able to decide when the period began, or even when it ended, although they all admit that a Renaissance did indeed occur. Some see its beginning in the 12th century, while others, in the 14th century. An even larger question looms: if there was such a thing as the Renaissance, regardless of when it began or ended, for whom was the Renaissance, a Renaissance? Did it affect all people at the same time? Or, was its impact felt only on a relatively small number of people in Northern Italian city-states, France, England and Holland? http://www.historyguide.org/earlymod/lecture1c.html Not entirely true. 3 different viewpoints on this issue: a) those who see a definite disconnect with earlier periods worthy of the term Rennaisance, b) those that se the Rennaisance as a transitional period between the MA and the early-modern period, and c) those who do not see strong evidence for a Rennaisance. I fall in the latter camp; many of the elements pointed out as being typically Rennaisance are indeed elements carried over from the MA, or developed therein. However, the 12th Century with the rise of more secularist scholars actually fits in better with my statements above. http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture26b.html Then you should be more precise with your dates! Where in the Hell did I even use any dates!? This is my post which brought this on: At 07:03 PM 5/24/04, Gary Denton wrote: snip others The source material is too heavily edited in most cases to make ready sense. You have to tease out meanings that aren't what the Church was pushing and try to find documents that weren't destroyed. Visualize the Roman Empire as a totalitarian world government and the Catholic Church as the only official religion. Part of the mission of church officials was to remove books and documents that didn't support the Church. After the Western Roman Empire fell this didn't change, it got worse. The Catholic Church had all the centers of learning and was the one transnational authority with real power. There is a reason for the Dark Ages. This, specifically, as well as the rest of the High MA is why I strongly disagree with your stance. Damon. From your statements you disagree there was a dark ages. I pointed out Dark Ages was in common use even if as I pointed out historians aren't happy with the term and I pointed out why it could be in common use in my next posting. Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:10:31 -0500 While the term Dark Ages is deplored by historians for many reasons, one original motivation for the term, is the lack of knowledge and sources of the time. The other usage of Dark Ages is the general view of the poverty, superstitious ignorance, and stagnation during this period. This persisted until the rebirth of reason known as the Renaissance. This opened up a new era of optimism, prosperity, and scientific progress, all made possible by the philosophies of secular humanism and scientific method. I believe that it is due to Church power and their control of education that little is known of the period, superstitious ignorance flourished, and stagnation persisted. YMMV Then you disagreed about dates when I didn't supply any other than after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and I obliged with a historian discussing the dates of the Renaissance. I pointed out the two periods of time called Renaissance and agreed with you that the rise of secular scholars, implied with my first statement, was a good date for the beginning of the Renaissance As you point out, historians at this time disagree about the time of the Renaissance and you fall into a modern camp denying there was even a Renaissance. A brief checking of current encyclopedias online indicates the term is still in current use in their historical articles but now note that a few are beginning to refer to it as a cultural Renaissance. That my use of the terms is acceptable also should have been obvious as the current history professor I quoted uses those terms. I am left to speculate if there is some conservative or religious basis to such strong objection to the term Dark Ages and denial of the Renaissance. Fine, you disagree that there was a Dark Ages to have a Renaissance from. Your
Re: Bullying and Battering
YHO is not accurate. The dictionaries were used because Dark Ages is a recognized term with which you disagree. Not being a historian I am not obligated to use more than general terms. Which is why I posted a correction. Where in the Hell did I even use any dates!? When I asked for definitions and you posted them. As you point out, historians at this time disagree about the time of the Renaissance and you fall into a modern camp denying there was even a Renaissance. A brief checking of current encyclopedias online indicates the term is still in current use in their historical articles but now note that a few are beginning to refer to it as a cultural Renaissance. That my use of the terms is acceptable also should have been obvious as the current history professor I quoted uses those terms. That's fine. I was pointing out that that is not a universal belief within the community. I am left to speculate if there is some conservative or religious basis to such strong objection to the term Dark Ages and denial of the Renaissance. No. The objection is the some 100 years of belief in pop history that the Middle Ages were the Dark Ages (def 2). It still pervades pop history, though things are getting better. The conservative/religious comment is silly. As far as dates are concerned: you make the allegation that the Church hindered intellectual growth because of its power, bias, etc. This would be impossible during the early period between 500-1000, as the Church barely survived. The period between 1000-1300, which is part of the aformentioned 12th C rennaisance, clearly contradicts your statement as this was the major period of Church power and reform. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
YHO is not accurate. The dictionaries were used because Dark Ages is a recognized term with which you disagree. Not being a historian I am not obligated to use more than general terms. Which is why I posted a correction. PS: This is NOT MY opinion, but the opinion of a large body of historical scholars. Besides which, as someone with training i the field, should I not be obligated to correct information that I know is incorrect, or should I let it slide? This is one of the problems I have with Brin and his abuse of the term feudalism. When I have to teach a class on the subject, I have to choose whether I can or should overcome societal preconcieved notions on the subject, or just abandon the word and teach it using new terms. In short, the task becomes much harder when this occurs. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
At 08:12 AM 5/25/04, William T Goodall wrote: On 25 May 2004, at 1:48 pm, Damon Agretto wrote: Dark Ages, a period of stagnation and obscurity in literature and art, lasting, according to Hallam, nearly 1000 years, from about 500 to about 1500 A. D.. See Middle Ages, under Middle. Does not agree with available evidence, nor what professional historians say about it. Quoting from a dictionary is IMHO NOT a good debating technique! Very true! One of the foibles of English is that experts and specialists use the same words that are in the dictionary with more particular or slightly different meanings, or even completely different meanings. I see the word 'deprecated' used every day, but not in any of the main senses given in a dictionary... And people have lost their jobs for using words like niggardly in exact accordance with their dictionary definitions . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
At 03:36 PM 5/25/04, Damon Agretto wrote: YHO is not accurate. The dictionaries were used because Dark Ages is a recognized term with which you disagree. Not being a historian I am not obligated to use more than general terms. Which is why I posted a correction. PS: This is NOT MY opinion, but the opinion of a large body of historical scholars. Besides which, as someone with training i the field, should I not be obligated to correct information that I know is incorrect, or should I let it slide? I have the same problem when it comes to topics including the face on Mars, Planet X, the Moon landings were faked, etc. Unfortunately, in the opinion of some people, the so-called experts are uninterested in listening to the important new knowledge on the topic from those whose mindset has not been set in stone by traditional training. Unfortunately, not only do such people not wish to learn from those with training in the field, but for some reason they seem to have a lot more time to compose and post Internet messages on the topic (not to mention getting radio and TV time to promote their non-mainline hypotheses) than those with training in the field . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
On 25 May 2004, at 9:03 pm, Deborah Harrell wrote: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All religions are cults. They may seem like harmless gobbledygook and balderdash featuring stunning idiocies like conversations with imaginary gods or fondling poisonous snakes, but behind the prattling nonsense and grotesque rituals lies real evil. rolls eyes, amused snort Smacking one of your favorite hobby-horses again, Willie m'dear...you're going to beat it to death one of these days! Just helping to make the world a better place... -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. - Bjarne Stroustrup ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Dead horses Re: Bullying and Battering
Deborah Harrell wrote: rolls eyes, amused snort Smacking one of your favorite hobby-horses again, Willie m'dear...you're going to beat it to death one of these days! Just so long as, after he beats it to death, he doesn't go through the saddlebags looking for loose change, and once he's found it, starts overanalyzing each individual coin. (Someone was in a meeting that ended with the horse being beaten to death for so long that's what it seemed like to him, and I like the metaphor.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Damon Agretto wrote: YHO is not accurate. The dictionaries were used because Dark Ages is a recognized term with which you disagree. Not being a historian I am not obligated to use more than general terms. Which is why I posted a correction. PS: This is NOT MY opinion, but the opinion of a large body of historical scholars. Besides which, as someone with training i the field, should I not be obligated to correct information that I know is incorrect, or should I let it slide? This is one of the problems I have with Brin and his abuse of the term feudalism. When I have to teach a class on the subject, I have to choose whether I can or should overcome societal preconcieved notions on the subject, or just abandon the word and teach it using new terms. In short, the task becomes much harder when this occurs. Damon-- My vote is for abandon the word and teach it using new terms, either that, or make a big deal of the fact that it will be used in a technical sense in class. I'd say that MOST of the time the general public recognizes a technical term, it acquires an inaccurate everyday meaning. Try anal retentive, for instance. : ) At a guess, Dark Ages is hopeless, and should simply be avoided. Renaissance is a term that can be sharpened up and used in a technical sense. ---David Or sweep back the sea. Want a broom, cheap? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Cults vs Religions, was Bullying and Battering
At 11:09 PM 25/05/04 -0400, you wrote: Keith Henson wrote: snip The distinction between cults and religions is real and useful. Cults are outright parasites, religions are the same mental parasites that have co-evolved with their hosts long enough to become more useful than harmful. Takes about 300 years. And at least one function of religions is to fill up the religious meme receptor in human mental space to make infection with a dangerous parasite less likely. (This may be less true in today's memetic ecosystem than it was in the past.) Keith Henson Keith-- I'm not sure I agree, but I like the biological parallels here! Ghod knows I have been making them long enough. My first article on this subject was published in Analog Aug 1987. I have picked dangerous examples for vivid illustrations and to point out that memes have a life of their own. The ones that kill their hosts make this hard to ignore. However, most memes, like most microorganisms, are either helpful or at least harmless. Some may even provide a certain amount of defense from the very harmful ones. It is the natural progression of parasites to become symbiotes, and the first symbiotic behavior that emerges in a proto-symbiote is for it to start protecting its host from other parasites. I have come to appreciate the common religions in this light. Even if they were harmful when they started, the ones that survive over generations evolve and do not cause too much damage to their hosts. Calvin (who had dozens of people executed over theological disputes) would hardly recognize Presbyterians three hundred years later. Contrariwise, the Shaker meme is now confined to books, and the Shakers are gone. It is clearly safer to believe in a well-aged religion than to be susceptible to a potentially fatal cult. http://groups.google.ca/groups?q=insubject:original+author:Keith+author:Hensonhl=enlr=ie=UTF-8selm=hkhensonE5ozq9.K8x%40netcom.comrnum=1 Taking your last point first, I'd say that it would now be more useful to have a safe religion as a cult agonist, blocking the religion receptor site, than it was in the past. For there are many more cults around now than there were in ages past, which increases the danger of infection. You might be right on this point, but there were a lot of dangerous cults about in the past. For example the children's crusades in 1212 resulted in a few tens of thousands dying. . http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/children.html (Although if all one needs to do is block a receptor, the blocking does not have to be done by a religion. I seem to use a dogma-free amalgam of several religions as a blocker. : ) ) My favorite is the Church of the SubGenius--which is distantly related to (of all things) scientology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius You might get more mileage out of an analogy between cults and diseases, rather than parasites. A cult would be like a germ that was too virulent, and killed its host. A religion would be like a chronic/harmless infection, which did not interfere too much with the life of its host. There is a reason to use the parasite model. As I mentioned in the clip above, it is a common progression over evolutionary time for a parasite to become a mutualistic symbiote. Disease and parasites are often the same thing, malaria for example. Certainly there were many cults that stopped their members from recruiting more members, for various reasons. The Shakers died out because their cult interfered with the reproductive cycle of its host. Most apocalyptic cults turn inward a bit before the predicted apocalypse. This seriously interferes with their ability to recruit more members. And so on... Correct, but *after* the date some of them get more into recruiting. The JWs are an example. Keith Henson ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathar Second, Bruderhof abuse in Google lists almost 3000 pages. Try http://www.perefound.org/jr_cn.html or Google Bruderhof critics From the latter site: Young women confront the issues of powerlessness and gender inequality in spiritual and temporal roles, and severe limits are placed upon their aspirations and participation in the community. Women especially bear the burdens of Gelassenheit, resignation and self-renunciation to the will of God, as enforced by the patriarchy. What IS it with various religious factions and their profound fear of women? Sheesh, even among the baboons at least females determine ranking in the society... Breaking up families, not allowing dissenters to see their family members, no access to outside influences - how loving, how Christ-like... Debbi Sounds Like A Cult To Me Maru :P __ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Deborah Harrell wrote: What IS it with various religious factions and their profound fear of women? Sheesh, even among the baboons at least females determine ranking in the society... Haven't we spent a fair amount of our energy over the past couple of hundred thousand years separating ourselves from the so-called lower primates? So maybe it's the fear of becoming baboons? Maybe it's the fact that women are magic (Really. Other *people* come out of them!), and most religions are afraid of magic. Really, though, I think it has to do with controlling reproduction. Until *very* recently, there was no way for a man to know whether the person who came out of his wife was his or not. Fear and the biological imperative added up to some pretty brutal habits that die hard. Breaking up families, not allowing dissenters to see their family members, no access to outside influences - how loving, how Christ-like... Yeah, but that Jesus is full of surprises: If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters -- yes, even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple. -- Luke 14:26 It's sayings of Jesus like this that give me pause when anyone -- myself included -- claims to know what Jesus would say or do. And yes, I know that the word hate as Jesus uses it here probably means about 100 things that we don't normally think it means, and yes, I know I'm taking one verse out of context. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
On Mon, 24 May 2004 16:26:25 -0700, Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: snip Yeah, but that Jesus is full of surprises: If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters -- yes, even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple. -- Luke 14:26 It's sayings of Jesus like this that give me pause when anyone -- myself included -- claims to know what Jesus would say or do. And yes, I know that the word hate as Jesus uses it here probably means about 100 things that we don't normally think it means, and yes, I know I'm taking one verse out of context. Dave The source material is too heavily edited in most cases to make ready sense. You have to tease out meanings that aren't what the Church was pushing and try to find documents that weren't destroyed. Visualize the Roman Empire as a totalitarian world government and the Catholic Church as the only official religion. Part of the mission of church officials was to remove books and documents that didn't support the Church. After the Western Roman Empire fell this didn't change, it got worse. The Catholic Church had all the centers of learning and was the one transnational authority with real power. There is a reason for the Dark Ages. Gary who has an idea for a story about the Mormon Church becoming the only official religion after some disaster # 1 on Google for liberal news ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
At 07:03 PM 5/24/04, Gary Denton wrote: Gary who has an idea for a story about the Mormon Church becoming the only official religion after some disaster A Utopian scenario story, IOW . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
There is a reason for the Dark Ages. What was that, and what evidence do you have to support this? Damon. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
On Mon, 24 May 2004 20:16:48 -0400, Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is a reason for the Dark Ages. What was that, and what evidence do you have to support this? Damon. While the term Dark Ages is deplored by historians for many reasons, one original motivation for the term, is the lack of knowledge and sources of the time. The other usage of Dark Ages is the general view of the poverty, superstitious ignorance, and stagnation during this period. This persisted until the rebirth of reason known as the Renaissance. This opened up a new era of optimism, prosperity, and scientific progress, all made possible by the philosophies of secular humanism and scientific method. I believe that it is due to Church power and their control of education that little is known of the period, superstitious ignorance flourished, and stagnation persisted. YMMV Gary OT - I took the informal Catholic church class Introduction to Catholicism while exploring the Church in college (GIHACO, if guys recognize the term), I liked the young priest, the lessons seemed illogical. #1 on Google for liberal news ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
The other usage of Dark Ages is the general view of the poverty, superstitious ignorance, and stagnation during this period. This persisted until the rebirth of reason known as the Renaissance. This opened up a new era of optimism, prosperity, and scientific progress, all made possible by the philosophies of secular humanism and scientific method. Gary, again, what are your sources and list your evidence for this. FYI I have a history degree and specialized in the European Middle Ages. I also don't believe in the Rennaisance (at least the pop definition of the term, i.e. the period between 1500 and 1600). The reasons are too lengthy to go into here, but mostly stem from the evidence that the growth of the scientific method, humanism, learning, etc did not begin after 1500 but much much earlier. Specifically, I'd reccommend you look at the 12th C Rennaisance, and there are a number of good books I can reccommend on the subject. Indeed this was the 2nd such Rennaisance to occur (the first was in the mid-750s or so) so to suggest the MA were the Dark Ages are wildly inaccurate on BOTH definitions. Damon, and lets not get into a discussion of the growth in superstition in the post 1500 era... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
At 03:14 PM 21/05/04 -0700, you wrote: While I was in the Bruderhof neighborhood... http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/Fight-or-Flight.htm There /is/ an alternative to the kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out mentality. Two things: cathars god will know his own in Google brings up almost 400 web pages. At Longedoc in July 1209, a force of Crusaders arrived, and demanded that 222 Cathars be surrendered. The people said we would rather be flayed alive. An error by the defenders of Bezier let thousands of attackers in. Arnold Amorie, head of the Crusade, ordered that everyone, all Catholics and Cathars, be killed, even his own men, since God will know his own. 20,000 were killed. http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathar Second, Bruderhof abuse in Google lists almost 3000 pages. Keith Henson ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
On Sun, 23 May 2004 09:18:14 -0400, Keith Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 03:14 PM 21/05/04 -0700, you wrote: While I was in the Bruderhof neighborhood... http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/Fight-or-Flight.htm http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathar Second, Bruderhof abuse in Google lists almost 3000 pages. Keith Henson Try http://www.perefound.org/jr_cn.html or Google Bruderhof critics There are a variety of news sources both critical and supportive of the Bruderhof. The Bruderhof, self-proclaimed as the good guy, denounce their critics as the demonic enemies of faith and adopt a complex legal, public relations, and extra-legal strategy to quiet their those who disagree with them . The courts become the tool to punish those who disagree by costly litigation and SLAPP suits intended to intimidate critics. Alternatively, KIT apostates, self-proclaimed as the good guy, denounce the Bruderhof as a destructive cult and attempt to discredit them in the court of public opinion. In the escalating conflict of dialectical opposition, the exercise of free speech and academic freedom is held hostage. Gary Who has his own religious conflict to concern him ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
At 03:36 PM 5/23/04, Gary Denton wrote: Gary Who has his own religious conflict to concern him Internal or external? Wanna share? Or just vent? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bullying and Battering
Texas is attempting to declare Unitarian Universalists not a religion. This seems insane considering the over 200 year history but things have been insane for a bit now. I don't think it will get anywhere but with the Supreme Court the way it is... Gary On Sun, 23 May 2004 17:01:27 -0500, Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 03:36 PM 5/23/04, Gary Denton wrote: Gary Who has his own religious conflict to concern him Internal or external? Wanna share? Or just vent? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Bruderhof, was Re: Bullying and Battering
Gary Denton wrote: ... Second, Bruderhof abuse in Google lists almost 3000 pages. Keith Henson ... Try http://www.perefound.org/jr_cn.html or Google Bruderhof critics There are a variety of news sources both critical and supportive of the Bruderhof. The main Bruderhof in Rifton, NY is about 4 miles away from my house. They are good neighbors, but I'm certainly prepared to believe that being in their group is no picnic. Some members do study at SUNY New Paltz where I teach. I could be wrong about this, because the blue headscarves of the women stand out more, but my impression is that there are a few students at a time who come (8 miles away) to attend college. All the ones I know of are female, and study Education. I presume that they wind up teaching at a private school in a Bruderhof. ---David Not the life for me... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Bullying and Battering (was: The Savage Solution)
Keith Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snippage Of course, battered wife is an arrested or recirculating (trapped) version of the capture-bonding sequence. Capture-bonding in the human wild state was a one time event, applied to captives for about the time hazing is today. There is a bit of a precursor to this trait in chimpanzees. Males are fairly brutal at first to females they take out of the group into remote areas during consortships. I would not say female chimpanzees bond with males who take them on consortships, but they do quit trying to escape after a few beatings. Also in baboons, where males regularly smack the females about. An intriguing paper reports on how this behavior was greatly diminished in a baboon troop whose alpha males were killed off by tuberculosis; now males tend to fight others of their own rank, and indulge in more mutual grooming: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/13/science/13BABO.html?ex=1085284800en=2cc8aafc0e63c9b1ei=5070 (our login/password: brinl/brinl) http://makeashorterlink.com/?T27513D58 Sometimes it takes the great Dustbuster of fate to clear the room of bullies and bad habits. Freak cyclones helped destroy Kublai Khan's brutal Mongolian empire, for example, while the Black Death of the 14th century capsized the medieval theocracy and gave the Renaissance a chance to shine. Among a troop of savanna baboons in Kenya, a terrible outbreak of tuberculosis 20 years ago selectively killed off the biggest, nastiest and most despotic males, setting the stage for a social and behavioral transformation unlike any seen in this notoriously truculent primate... ...researchers describe the drastic temperamental and tonal shift that occurred in a troop of 62 baboons when its most belligerent members vanished from the scene. The victims were all dominant adult males that had been strong and snarly enough to fight with a neighboring baboon troop over the spoils at a tourist lodge garbage dump, and were exposed there to meat tainted with bovine tuberculosis, which soon killed them. Left behind in the troop, designated the Forest Troop, were the 50 percent of males that had been too subordinate to try dump brawling, as well as all the females and their young. With that change in demographics came a cultural swing toward pacifism, a relaxing of the usually parlous baboon hierarchy, and a willingness to use affection and mutual grooming rather than threats, swipes and bites to foster a patriotic spirit. Remarkably, the Forest Troop has maintained its genial style over two decades, even though the male survivors of the epidemic have since died or disappeared and been replaced by males from the outside. (As is the case for most primates, baboon females spend their lives in their natal home, while the males leave at puberty to seek their fortunes elsewhere.) The persistence of communal comity suggests that the resident baboons must somehow be instructing the immigrants in the unusual customs of the tribe... ...The researchers were able to compare the behavior and physiology of the contemporary Forest Troop primates to two control groups: a similar-size baboon congregation living nearby, called the Talek Troop, and the Forest Troop itself from 1979 through 1982, the era that might be called Before Alpha Die-off, or B.A.D... ...But in the baboon study, the culture being conveyed is less a specific behavior or skill than a global code of conduct. You can more accurately describe it as the social ethos of group, said Dr. Andrew Whiten, a professor of evolutionary and developmental psychology at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland who has studied chimpanzee culture. It's an attitude that's being transmitted... ...Jerkiness or worse certainly seems to be a job description for ordinary male baboons. The average young male, after wheedling his way into a new troop at around age 7, spends his prime years seeking to fang his way up the hierarchy; and once he's gained some status, he devotes many a leisure hour to whimsical displays of power at scant personal cost. He harasses and attacks females, which weigh half his hundred pounds and lack his thumb-thick canines, or he terrorizes the low-ranking males he knows cannot retaliate. Dr. Barbara Smuts, a primatologist at the University of Michigan who wrote the 1985 book Sex and Friendship in Baboons, said that the females in the troop she studied received a serious bite from a male annually, maybe losing a strip of flesh or part of an ear in the process. As they age and lose their strength, however, males may calm down and adopt a new approach to group living, affiliating with females so devotedly that they keep their reproductive opportunities going even as their ranking in the male hierarchy plunges. For their part, female baboons, which live up to 25 years compared with the male's 18 inherit their rank in the gynocracy from their mothers and so spend less time fighting for dominance. They do,
Re: Bullying and Battering
While I was in the Bruderhof neighborhood... http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/Fight-or-Flight.htm There /is/ an alternative to the kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out mentality. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
