RE: Some things are too good to last

[Horn, John]

> From: J. van Baardwijk [mailto:j.vanbaardwijk@;chello.nl]
> 
> About 15 minutes ago, for an other post, I did a Google 
> search on "Dan 
> Minette"; there were literally dozens of links to the archives at 
> mail-archive.com and Yahoo!Groups.
> 
> When I did a search on your e-mail address, the first two 
> links point to 
> mail-archive.com.

I stand corrected.  I wasn't aware that google could reach those archives.
Apparently the Hero-L mailing list I'm on also shows up.  Doh!!

  - jmh
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RE: Some things are too good to last

[Deborah Harrell]

--- Ronn Blankenship wrote:
> Deborah Harrell wrote:
> >This reminds me of a Halloween ride in 1990
> >...pre-ride we had mead, coffee with Bailey's, and
> >mimosas (orange juice & champagne)... 
> >but the real problem came
> >later, when I was holding the reins for another
> woman to re-mount.
> >Her mare spooked violently at her flapping cape...
> >and leaped into the lake; not having sense enough
> to drop the reins, I wound up _under_ Magnolia...
> >those on shore said she
> >appeared to stumble before she leaped out of the
> water - I think she sensed that I was under her and
> jumped over me...]
> >
> >What's that saying about "watching over fools and
> >idiots?"   I haven't ridden, driven or
> >operated any equipment whatsoever with more than a
> >half-glass of wine on-board since.
 
 
> I think I will refrain from making any observations
> about "dumb animals" . 
> . . especially when it comes to applying that label
> to any particular one 
> of the participants in that anecdote . . .
> When Are The Lawyers Going To Require Warning Labels
> On Horses Maru


I think I covered that already with the "idiot"
remark! :P

And OSHA has already designed many saftey features for
the timid rider:  ;D 
http://www.hsegroup.com/hse/text/cowboy.htm

Piggin' Strings Maru

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[J. van Baardwijk]

At 09:58 04-11-2002 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote:


Is putting graffiti on a wall a felony there, then?  I think that that
would probably fall under the category of "misdemeanor" here.
Misdemeanors don't affect your ability to vote, and probably don't
affect your ability to hold most jobs. A felony is a more serious crime.


Putting graffiti on a wall is probably "only" a misdemeanour here as well. 
You are not sent to prison for it, but will be usually be sentenced to a 
number of hours of community service -- and it the case of graffiti 
"artists", that usually means *removing* graffiti from walls.   

But anyway, I only used that example to point out that relatively small 
acts of wrongdoing usually do not have any really serious consequences 
later in life.


Do you have any classification distinction between sorts of crimes like
that, or not?  Just curious.


We do; the classification is pretty much similar to the classification in 
the US, although there might be a few differences wrt whether a specific 
act is considered a misdemeanour or a crime, or even a form of criminal 
behaviour at all.


Jeroen "Justice for all" van Baardwijk

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Julia Thompson]

"J. van Baardwijk" wrote:
> 
> At 14:42 01-11-2002 -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote:
> 
> >Can convicted felons work for the Dutch Defense Ministry, and why or why not?
[snippage]
> Of course, there will be a few variables at play then, such as what you did
> wrong and when you did it. A sentence of 40 hours of community service you
> received 10 years ago for putting some graffiti on a wall is not likely to
> cause any problems with getting a job. If your criminal record lists gun
> violence, you will probably not get a job in which you will have access to
> weapons. Someone convicted for fraud will probably not get a job with DEFAC
> (Defense Finance & Accounting) either. A criminal record will probably also
> have an effect on your Security Clearance level.

Is putting graffiti on a wall a felony there, then?  I think that that
would probably fall under the category of "misdemeanor" here. 
Misdemeanors don't affect your ability to vote, and probably don't
affect your ability to hold most jobs. A felony is a more serious crime.

Do you have any classification distinction between sorts of crimes like
that, or not?  Just curious.

Julia
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Re: Some things are too good to last

[J. van Baardwijk]

At 14:42 01-11-2002 -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote:


Can convicted felons work for the Dutch Defense Ministry, and why or why not?


I am not sure either way, and I cannot check right now either as I am on 
leave this week (and after this week, there are still ~38 hours of vacation 
time left that I have to take this year). However, given that over here we 
believe that convicted felons need to be reintegrated into society after 
serving their sentence, I think there is a good chance that even an 
convicted felon can get a job at the Defense Department.

Of course, there will be a few variables at play then, such as what you did 
wrong and when you did it. A sentence of 40 hours of community service you 
received 10 years ago for putting some graffiti on a wall is not likely to 
cause any problems with getting a job. If your criminal record lists gun 
violence, you will probably not get a job in which you will have access to 
weapons. Someone convicted for fraud will probably not get a job with DEFAC 
(Defense Finance & Accounting) either. A criminal record will probably also 
have an effect on your Security Clearance level.

So, it might be possible for convicted felons to get a job with the Dept., 
but there will almost certainly be (reasonable) limits on what kind of job 
s/he could get.


Jeroen "For Queen and Country" van Baardwijk

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

Ronn Blankenship wrote:

> At 02:48 PM 11/1/02, Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote:
>
> >Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote:
> >
> > > .command of Ron on Jeroen's sig. And second to Adam's respons to my
> > first
> >
> >That should have been ... comment of Ron on  D'oh. :o)
> >
> >Sonja
>
> Who's Ron?
>
> --Ronn! :)

I should have given up there and then

Sonja

Back to breakfast and paint stripping, I love powertools, 
yeah man, ... more power.

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RE: Some things are too good to last

[Horn, John]

> From: Ronn Blankenship
> >
> >That should have been ... comment of Ron on  D'oh. :o)
> 
> Who's Ron?

I believe that would be the guy trying to go for the Alpha Mail position!


 - jmh
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Re: Some things are too good to last

[J. van Baardwijk]

At 19:16 02-11-2002 -0600, Ronn Blankenship wrote:


One thing I find interesting, going over this thread:  All responses
spawned by that one post of Jeroen's that come through as being part of
the thread as threaded by Netscape come either from people in Jeroen's
town in The Netherlands, or people who live in Texas within 3 hours'
drive of each other.  Does this mean anything, or is it coincidental?
:)

Julia

waiting for a response from someone not fitting either geographical
category now



That the rest of us have decided to stay out of it?


Well, if people insist, I *could* reply to it from work (now that my PC has 
been repaired). I live but do not work in Eindhoven (which, BTW, qualifies 
as *city*, not *town*: pop. 203,000 per 01-01-2001) but work in the nearby 
town of Oirschot, so technically speaking, I would not be posting from 
"either geographical category" then.   


Jeroen "Just a thought" van Baardwijk

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message -
From: "Horn, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: Some things are too good to last


>
> Last time I checked, neither of those archives shows up when you do a
google
> search.  A page on your website probably would.
>

I use Copernic for searches.

Using my name for a search brings up Sloan3D as the first hit and the eighth
hit.
The yahoo group comes up as the sixteenth hit and the twentysixth hit.

The twenty eighth hit is mail-archive.com as is the forty first.

But I think this gives creedence to Johns point. Regular websites give
better hits than archives.

Who is going to research the archive looking for dirt on a new hire?


xponent
A Clue Maru
rob


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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Ronn Blankenship]

At 02:48 PM 11/1/02, Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote:


Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote:

> .command of Ron on Jeroen's sig. And second to Adam's respons to my 
first

That should have been ... comment of Ron on  D'oh. :o)

Sonja



Who's Ron?



--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle


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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Ronn Blankenship]

At 10:17 AM 10/31/02, Julia Thompson wrote:

Dan Minette wrote:
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 9:22 AM
> Subject: Re: Some things are too good to last
>
> > Dan Minette wrote:
> > >
> > > I hit reply on a post from Sonja, and it went to her instead of the
> list.
> > > That's the first time that's happend to me.  Anyway, here it is.
> > >
[great snippage]
> > > I do not see how you can ask someone to have ignored your husbands
> threats
> > > to people's livelihoods.
> >
> > I haven't seen any evidence that he's about to put that sort of negative
> > information up; all he's done this week is indicate displeasure with the
> > list with his .sig.
>
> I agree, and that's fair enough.  I know that Jeroen's recent responses to
> me have been much easier to deal with.  He has strongly pushed his points,
> but has kept the conversation on topic.  Yes, he has ignored some of my
> questions, but in my head I just assume that he doesn't have a good answer
> for those questions right now.  I've seen other posters delay answers to
> certain questions until they are happy with responses.
>
> But, Adam brought up an example of a past threat, and I was responding to
> Sonja's response to that, etc.  That threat no longer seems operative,
> which is very good, but it is a reasonable example of a threat that could
> not have been ignored.

Fair enough.  I just prefer not to drag up negative things from the past
if it can be avoided.

> > I think that on the basis of this one .sig file change, some people are
> > overreacting.
>
> My reaction was at the time was "please let this not be the start of a
> pattern."  It doesn't appear to be, Jeroen seems to write lotsa different
> things in the .sig file.

Right.  I just took it as momentary frustration (keeping in tone with
the rest of the post!) rearing its head, and might have glossed over it
altogether if it hadn't been pointed out.

Rob, if you're going to point out stuff in Jeroen's .sig file, can you
point out the good things, too?  I'm liable to miss those, as well.  :)

> >If he actually modifies content on his website to reflect
> > this negativity, that's another matter entirely, but he hasn't done a
> > damn thing to it this week as far as I can tell.  All he has done is
> > modify his .sig file.  Lighten up, guys, would ya?
>
> I have no problem with the .sig. However,  I didn't respond to Sonja's
> first comment that the original protest of Gautam, myself, and others was
> just paranoia because I was willing to let things lie and because I allowed
> a bit of hyperbola by someone who was subjected to a number of rude emails.
> (That of course was wrong.)
>
> However, after it became a repeated theme for Sonja; I decided to respond.
> I have no problems with Jeroen put in his sig.  I have a significant
> problem with any credible threat of RL consequences.  That is not paranoia.
> Indeed, my issue is with Sonja's posts, not Jeroen's sigs.  I differ with
> them and thus write a rebuttal. No hard feelings.  Indeed, a casual perusal
> of my posting patterns indicates that I do tend to write rebuttals for
> posts I differ with, even when they are written by people I like. :-)

Yes, you do.

Actually, I expected nothing less from you when I hit "send".  And I'd
like to take the opportunity to let you know that I appreciate the
cordial tone of your response to me.

One thing I find interesting, going over this thread:  All responses
spawned by that one post of Jeroen's that come through as being part of
the thread as threaded by Netscape come either from people in Jeroen's
town in The Netherlands, or people who live in Texas within 3 hours'
drive of each other.  Does this mean anything, or is it coincidental?
:)

Julia

waiting for a response from someone not fitting either geographical
category now



That the rest of us have decided to stay out of it?


-- Ronn in Birmingham, AL  :)

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RE: Some things are too good to last

[Ronn Blankenship]

At 03:56 PM 10/30/02, Deborah Harrell wrote:

--- Reggie Bautista wrote:
> Jean-Louis replied:
> >I suggest drinking Halloween floats :
> >
> >1 part blond beer (eg. lager) with orange coloring
> >1 part Guinness which should float on the lager!
>
> Irish bars here in KC (and presumably elsewhere)
> call this either a
> half-and-half (if the bottom half is Harp) or a
> Black and Tan (if the bottom half is Bass).
>
> Ahh, the memories!  A pint-sized half-and-half in my
> right hand, a
> double-shot of Bushmills Special Reserve in my left
> hand, and a bar full of
> drunks singing Irish drinking songs along with Eddie
> Delahunt... Those were *really* the days :-)
>
> Reggie Bautista
> Haven't even had a good glass of Mead in the past
> year Maru :-(

This reminds me of a Halloween ride in 1990: for our
pre-ride brunch we had mead, coffee with Bailey's, and
mimosas (orange juice & champagne) - with assorted
quiches/muffins/fruit to dilute the alcohol! - then
set off for the lake.  I was one of several to 'kiss
the dirt' as none of the horses had participated in a
costumed event before (no one was hurt as we were,
ahem, 'well-lubricated'), but the real problem came
later, when I was holding the reins for another woman
to re-mount.

Her mare spooked violently at her flapping cape (the
scary mask probably didn't help either :P ), reared
and leaped into the lake; not having sense enough to
drop the reins, I wound up _under_ Magnolia, and
finally let go of them when a pastern (the joint right
above the hoof) smacked my forehead.  [I didn't see it
of course, but a steel-shod hoof would have at least
cracked my soused head; those on shore said she
appeared to stumble before she leaped out of the water
- I think she sensed that I was under her and jumped
over me...]

What's that saying about "watching over fools and
idiots?"   I haven't ridden, driven or
operated any equipment whatsoever with more than a
half-glass of wine on-board since.




I think I will refrain from making any observations about "dumb animals" . 
. . especially when it comes to applying that label to any particular one 
of the participants in that anecdote . . .



--Ronn! :)


When Are The Lawyers Going To Require Warning Labels On Horses Maru


I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle


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RE: Some things are too good to last

[J. van Baardwijk]

At 12:44 01-11-2002 -0600, John Horn wrote:


> Second, it would not make any difference if I would put such messages
> on a website, because those messages are already a matter of public
> record (they are available from at least two on-line archives).

Last time I checked, neither of those archives shows up when you do a google
search.


About 15 minutes ago, for an other post, I did a Google search on "Dan 
Minette"; there were literally dozens of links to the archives at 
mail-archive.com and Yahoo!Groups.

When I did a search on your e-mail address, the first two links point to 
mail-archive.com.


Jeroen "Websearch" van Baardwijk

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[J. van Baardwijk]

At 12:55 01-11-2002 -0600, Dan Minette wrote:


> If he uses that sort of  methods, he is likely to use other
> questionable reasons as well to decide whether or not to fire an
> employee (such as "how often does this employee leave his desk to get
> some coffee?" and "I am a smoker -- is this employee opposed to
> smoking?"). Not the kind of employer *I* would want to work for.

To put it bluntly, you are speaking from ignorance.


Actually, it is worse: I am speaking from experience. I have seen employers 
use literally anything to determine whether or not to fire someone. I have 
even had one employer who kept track of how often I went to the toilet...


Not everyone works for the government.


Who said anything about working for the government?



However, when someone is looking for work, they don't need a question
mark by their name.  That is usually enough to get someone in the discard
pile.


Then that person should show such behaviour that such a question mark would 
not appear in the first place. Everyone is responsible for his/her own 
actions and the consequences of those actions. I mean, if you had a 
criminal record, and an employer would decide not to hire you because of 
that criminal record, would you blame the government for your 
not-getting-the-job because they keep such records?


> Second, it would not make any difference if I would put such messages
> on a website, because those messages are already a matter of public record
> record (they are available from at least two on-line archives).


You know better than that.  Its like saying that it makes no difference,
given that a needle exists  in a haystack in the state of Kansas, that
someone offers a service to fetch the needle for someone and place it on
their desk.  After all, it was in an accessable place.


Your analogy is flawed: finding something about FREX you on the Web would 
be several orders of magnitude easier than finding a needle of which you 
only know that it is in a haystack somewhere in Kansas. Example: I just did 
a Google search on "Dan Minette"; Google returned 232 results and only 
needed 0.18 seconds for it.

I challenge you to find a needle in an haystack in Kansas within 0.18 
seconds...   


There are billions upon billions of bytes of information on the www. To
set things up so that negative information is selected when someone's name
is typed in a search engine is not the same as it being buried in near
100,000 messages of one of hundreds of thousands of mailing lists and
newsgroups.


Let's assume for a moment that I had put some negative information about 
you on a website; what would be the odds of an employer selecting that 
specific link from the hundreds of results a search on your name would 
generate?


Jeroen "You do the crime, you do the time" van Baardwijk

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

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Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote:

> .command of Ron on Jeroen's sig. And second to Adam's respons to my first

That should have been ... comment of Ron on  D'oh. :o)

Sonja

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

Dan Minette wrote:

> I have no problem with the .sig. However,  I didn't respond to Sonja's
> first comment that the original protest of Gautam, myself, and others was
> just paranoia because I was willing to let things lie and because I allowed
> a bit of hyperbola by someone who was subjected to a number of rude emails.
> (That of course was wrong.)

Maybe you should have read what I wrote a little more carefully. I was
painstakingly precise in creating two totally impartial responses. First to the
command of Ron on Jeroen's sig. And second to Adam's respons to my first
impartial remark. If you wouldn't have known my affiliation to Jeroen you might
have noticed it.

> However, after it became a repeated theme for Sonja; I decided to respond.

So now I can no longer say how I feel about this whole thing, without everybody
tripping over themselves trying to show me the error of my ways no matter what
I wrote of how I wrote it? I think that is a bit rash, but what the heck. :o)

> I have no problems with Jeroen put in his sig.  I have a significant
> problem with any credible threat of RL consequences.  That is not paranoia.

I believe my first mention of paranoia was in relation to what happened in the
past before Jeroen changed his web site and as a counterpoint to what I feel
Nick has been doing. And I believe the general tone of my responses would
warrant a little credit in that respect. But I admit it was unfair of me to
drag that old cow back in and I'll retract what I said about people being
paranoid in respect to Jeroen's capabillities to wreck havoc on this list.

> Indeed, my issue is with Sonja's posts, not Jeroen's sigs.  I differ with
> them and thus write a rebuttal.

It's been noted. I've abstained from partaking in any of the heated exchanges
other than factual because I actually expected to be treated unfair and seen as
partial. I felt that this would lend my point of view no credibillity
whatsoever. I've been proven right in that respect. So in effect it was a waste
of effort and time. So as a result I won't express my opinion on this subject
again, since it is apperantly not apreciated that I do so, be it in jest or
seriously.

> No hard feelings.

It'll just save me a lot of time, that's all, so no hard feelings. :o)

> Indeed, a casual perusal of my posting patterns indicates that I do tend to
> write rebuttals for posts I differ with, even when they are written by people
> I like. :-)

Sonja :o)

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

Dan Minette wrote:

> 

But. Aren't you supposed to work during your bosses hours? I feel that
being active on a this list should be pure personal pleasure nothing to do with
work. We don't all live by that but that is only because those got nice bosses
that allow the occasional listmail being read and written during the bosses
hours. Considering this I want to see the boss that prohibits that. My guess is
that people afraid of RL concequences can use pseudonyms if they are really
afraid of being linked to something as ... ehum ... controversial as brin-l. I
believe we have at least one such person among us whose RL identity is totally
unknown to us and cannot be traced so far 

Sonja :o)

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Jon Gabriel]

From: "Jim Sharkey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Some things are too good to last
Date: Fri,  1 Nov 2002 13:42:21 -0500 (EST)


J. van Baardwijk wrote:
> And then of course there is this little thing called "freedom of
> speech".

The First Amendment in the U.S. protects you from the GOVERNMENT.  If your 
prospective employer doesn't want controversy, he doesn't have to hire you 
if he thinks you'll bring it.

Jim


Hi Jim,

And something that may also be appropriate in Gautam's case:

If you publish written articles, releases or statements for your company in 
trade or consumer publications, or speak to company vendors, clients or the 
news media with any regularity (sometimes even infrequently,) then you speak 
*for* the company as a representative in some capacity.  Company 
representatives may not be hired if they have some controversy in their 
backgrounds.

Interesting corrollary (at least to me...)
Can convicted felons work for the Dutch Defense Ministry, and why or why 
not?
Jon



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RE: Some things are too good to last

[Horn, John]

> From: J. van Baardwijk [mailto:j.vanbaardwijk@;chello.nl]
> 
> First, an employer who would use a couple of e-mails as a 
> reason to not 
> hire a person, would be a lousy employer anyway. If he uses 
> that sort of 
> methods, he is likely to use other questionable reasons as 
> well to decide 
> whether or not to fire an employee (such as "how often does 
> this employee 
> leave his desk to get some coffee?" and "I am a smoker -- is 
> this employee 
> opposed to smoking?"). Not the kind of employer *I* would 
> want to work for.

I have posted the last time this comes up that this is not true.  As a
person who has done hiring, when you have a stack of resumes 6 inches high
for a position that are all basically identical you are looking for reasons
*NOT* to hire some of them.  A web search that brings up something like this
might cause that resume to go into the "no" pile.  I don't believe that
makes me a bad employer or change the way I'm going to deal with someone
once I do hire them.  They are completely different things.

> Second, it would not make any difference if I would put such 
> messages on a 
> website, because those messages are already a matter of 
> public record (they 
> are available from at least two on-line archives).

Last time I checked, neither of those archives shows up when you do a google
search.  A page on your website probably would.

 - jmh
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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message -
From: "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: Some things are too good to last


> At 09:08 31-10-2002 -0600, Dan Minette wrote:

> >
> >You appear to ignore extemely credible evidence that has been presented
on
> >Brin-l.detailing how such a threat cannot simply be ignored.   The
problem
> >with such a website with names and libel is that it is extremely
visable.
> >Let us assume that a curious person who heard about Gautam would type in
> >his name.  It is probable that it would list Jeroen's page as one of the
> >first hits.  The same is true with my name.
>
> If poster X writes "Jeroen, you are an asshole", and I put that post up
on
> a website, how can it possibly be libelous? I am merely quoting said
poster.

Well, if you did nothing more than snip quotes out of context, then it
might not be libel.  However, if you added the editorializing that you
suggested that you would, it probably would be.  Further, even if it not
technically lible, threatening RL harm simply because someone got in a
flame war with you is wrong.

One other thing worth noting.  You have written things far stronger than
what's been written at you.  If you want proof, contact me offline.  I
really don't want to drag those posts in front of everyone.  Given the
forbearance of others regarding your posts, threats of RL harm really seems
way way out of line to me.

>
> >Gautam said that his employer would require him to quit the list; they
> >don't like conterversy.
>
> IMHO, nobody should go work for such an employer; after all, what the
> employer is doing in such a case is telling the employee what s/he can
and
> cannot do and say in his/her spare time. I can imagine that an employer
> would be opposed to letting employees send out controversial personal
> e-mails from work, but what an employee does outside work hours is the
> employee's business, not the employer's.

Not when it affects the employer's reputation.  For example, if an employee
of McKensey (sp) was on TV as a leader of the KKK, McKensey is not legally
oblidged to keep said employee.  Doing harm to the reputation of a company
is grounds for dismissal.  Especially, when employees are told about it to
begin with.


> And then of course there is this little thing called "freedom of speech".

Freedom of speech means that the government cannot prohibit a wide range of
speach.  It doesn't mean that the government is oblidged to make sure that
there are no consequences from said speech.


> >I do not see how you can ask someone to have ignored your husbands
threats
> >to people's livelihoods.
>
> First, an employer who would use a couple of e-mails as a reason to not
> hire a person, would be a lousy employer anyway.

Bull.  The reality is that, for many jobs, there are a number of applicants
and uncertain information.  Many jobs get hundreds of applicants.  All it
takes is one possible negative to get a resume placed in the big "do not
follow up on" pile, instead of the small "call" pile.

Further,  I find it reprehensible for you to dismiss any responsibility for
keeping someone from getting a job because "the employer would have been
lousy anyway."  Its not yours to decide.

>If he uses that sort of  methods, he is likely to use other questionable
reasons as well to decide
> whether or not to fire an employee (such as "how often does this employee
> leave his desk to get some coffee?" and "I am a smoker -- is this
employee
> opposed to smoking?"). Not the kind of employer *I* would want to work
for.

To put it bluntly, you are speaking from ignorance.  Not everyone works for
the government. In the real world, employment is at will.  There is a short
list of reasons for which someone cannot be dismissed.  Outside of that,
its fair game.  Gautam's case is a bit unusual, because he has such a high
profile job.  However, when someone is looking for work, they don't need a
question mark by their name.  That is usually enough to get someone in the
discard pile.

> Second, it would not make any difference if I would put such messages on
a
> website, because those messages are already a matter of public record
(they
> are available from at least two on-line archives).


You know better than that.  Its like saying that it makes no difference,
given that a needle exists  in a haystack in the state of Kansas, that
someone offers a service to fetch the needle for someone and place it on
their desk.  After all, it was in an accessable place.

There are billions upon billions of bytes of information on the www.  To
set things up so that negative information is selected when someone's na

Re: Some things are too good to last

[Jim Sharkey]

J. van Baardwijk wrote:
> And then of course there is this little thing called "freedom of
> speech".

The First Amendment in the U.S. protects you from the GOVERNMENT.  If your prospective 
employer doesn't want controversy, he doesn't have to hire you if he thinks you'll 
bring it.

Jim

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[J. van Baardwijk]

At 09:08 31-10-2002 -0600, Dan Minette wrote:


> > Well, who wrote "Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website:"?  If listmember
> > "J" uses a website to slam the list, or threatens to do so, with the
> > implicit threat that some members of the list may have libelous
> > information posted about them, are other listmembers not allowed to
> > say anything about it?  How are other listmembers supposed to react to
> > that?  Say nothing?
>
> It's an idea that might perhaps work. It hasn't been tried so far and
> everything else failed. But males in general, usually aren't very good at
> that. So I forgive you. ;o)

You appear to ignore extemely credible evidence that has been presented on
Brin-l.detailing how such a threat cannot simply be ignored.   The problem
with such a website with names and libel is that it is extremely visable.
Let us assume that a curious person who heard about Gautam would type in
his name.  It is probable that it would list Jeroen's page as one of the
first hits.  The same is true with my name.


If poster X writes "Jeroen, you are an asshole", and I put that post up on 
a website, how can it possibly be libelous? I am merely quoting said poster.


Gautam said that his employer would require him to quit the list; they
don't like conterversy.


IMHO, nobody should go work for such an employer; after all, what the 
employer is doing in such a case is telling the employee what s/he can and 
cannot do and say in his/her spare time. I can imagine that an employer 
would be opposed to letting employees send out controversial personal 
e-mails from work, but what an employee does outside work hours is the 
employee's business, not the employer's.

And then of course there is this little thing called "freedom of speech".


Other folks, who are looking for work, might face a situation when
a situation when someone doing due dilligence might simply types their
names into a search engine and comes up with that website as a hit.  They
might not even be told why they were not offered a job.  Yes, they might
not, too.  But, it is not beyond the pale to expect someone to spend 3
minutes checking on the public information available on someone looking
for work.

I do not see how you can ask someone to have ignored your husbands threats
to people's livelihoods.


First, an employer who would use a couple of e-mails as a reason to not 
hire a person, would be a lousy employer anyway. If he uses that sort of 
methods, he is likely to use other questionable reasons as well to decide 
whether or not to fire an employee (such as "how often does this employee 
leave his desk to get some coffee?" and "I am a smoker -- is this employee 
opposed to smoking?"). Not the kind of employer *I* would want to work for.

Second, it would not make any difference if I would put such messages on a 
website, because those messages are already a matter of public record (they 
are available from at least two on-line archives).


Jeroen "You do the crime, you do the time" van Baardwijk

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Doug]

Julia Thompson wrote:



Commenting on the weather won't do any good. 

Weather?  What weather?

Doug

¦:^)


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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Julia Thompson]

Robert Seeberger wrote:
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 10:17 AM
> Subject: Re: Some things are too good to last
> 
> > One thing I find interesting, going over this thread:  All responses
> > spawned by that one post of Jeroen's that come through as being part of
> > the thread as threaded by Netscape come either from people in Jeroen's
> > town in The Netherlands, or people who live in Texas within 3 hours'
> > drive of each other.  Does this mean anything, or is it coincidental?
> > :)
> 
> Its coincidental I'm sure, but I noticed it too.
> Maybe those who are able to deal with Texas summers are less likely to put
> up with any crap? 

Or those who have to deal with Texas summers refuse to put up with any
*other* crap?  :)

Commenting on the weather won't do any good.  Commenting on anything
else has more potential to do any good.  Biting one's tongue about the
weather may make one more itchy to put in $0.02 on any other subject. 
(ANY other subject!)

Speaking of weather, maybe the Texans were just a little uptight about
last week's weather (flash flooding everywhere, nowhere near enough
sunshine) and a little touchier as a result?

Julia

*so* glad not to have been living in Corpus Christi in the past 7 days
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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Jon Gabriel]

Julia wrote:


> One thing I find interesting, going over this thread:  All responses
> spawned by that one post of Jeroen's that come through as being part of
> the thread as threaded by Netscape come either from people in Jeroen's
> town in The Netherlands, or people who live in Texas within 3 hours'
> drive of each other.  Does this mean anything, or is it coincidental?
> :)


*Sigh* I'm 1800 posts behind... hopefully I'll catch up before New Years.
Consider this a token post from NY. :-)
Jon, who will probably have lots to say on the subject as soon as I figure 
out what's going on!

GSV Reading just as fast as I can


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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message -
From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: Some things are too good to last


> Dan Minette wrote:
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 9:22 AM
> > Subject: Re: Some things are too good to last
> >
> > But, Adam brought up an example of a past threat, and I was responding
to
> > Sonja's response to that, etc.  That threat no longer seems operative,
> > which is very good, but it is a reasonable example of a threat that
could
> > not have been ignored.
>
> Fair enough.  I just prefer not to drag up negative things from the past
> if it can be avoided.

I tend to agree with Dan. There is always potential for unexpected
consequences from "normal" posts (I think JDG will agree here), but when one
is angry or somewhat excited when posting those potentials increase.


>
> > > I think that on the basis of this one .sig file change, some people
are
> > > overreacting.
> >
> > My reaction was at the time was "please let this not be the start of a
> > pattern."  It doesn't appear to be, Jeroen seems to write lotsa
different
> > things in the .sig file.
>
> Right.  I just took it as momentary frustration (keeping in tone with
> the rest of the post!) rearing its head, and might have glossed over it
> altogether if it hadn't been pointed out.
>
> Rob, if you're going to point out stuff in Jeroen's .sig file, can you
> point out the good things, too?  I'm liable to miss those, as well.  :)

I try to do so actually. If you go back and look at posts I have written
where I was critical and the post was longer than one or two lines, I
usually do try to say something positive. I want people I disagree with to
feel that I respect them and value them, and that my criticism is not an
attempt to discount them in any way.
Having said that, I am sure one could find examples where I did not do so.
Me am far from perfect. 


>
> > >If he actually modifies content on his website to reflect
> > > this negativity, that's another matter entirely, but he hasn't done a
> > > damn thing to it this week as far as I can tell.  All he has done is
> > > modify his .sig file.  Lighten up, guys, would ya?
> >
> > I have no problem with the .sig. However,  I didn't respond to Sonja's
> > first comment that the original protest of Gautam, myself, and others
was
> > just paranoia because I was willing to let things lie and because I
allowed
> > a bit of hyperbola by someone who was subjected to a number of rude
emails.
> > (That of course was wrong.)
> >
> > However, after it became a repeated theme for Sonja; I decided to
respond.
> > I have no problems with Jeroen put in his sig.  I have a significant
> > problem with any credible threat of RL consequences.  That is not
paranoia.
> > Indeed, my issue is with Sonja's posts, not Jeroen's sigs.  I differ
with
> > them and thus write a rebuttal. No hard feelings.  Indeed, a casual
perusal
> > of my posting patterns indicates that I do tend to write rebuttals for
> > posts I differ with, even when they are written by people I like. :-)
>
> Yes, you do.
>
> Actually, I expected nothing less from you when I hit "send".  And I'd
> like to take the opportunity to let you know that I appreciate the
> cordial tone of your response to me.
>
> One thing I find interesting, going over this thread:  All responses
> spawned by that one post of Jeroen's that come through as being part of
> the thread as threaded by Netscape come either from people in Jeroen's
> town in The Netherlands, or people who live in Texas within 3 hours'
> drive of each other.  Does this mean anything, or is it coincidental?
> :)

Its coincidental I'm sure, but I noticed it too.
Maybe those who are able to deal with Texas summers are less likely to put
up with any crap? 


xponent
Boo Maru
rob


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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Reggie Bautista]

Julia wrote:

One thing I find interesting, going over this thread:  All responses
spawned by that one post of Jeroen's that come through as being part of
the thread as threaded by Netscape come either from people in Jeroen's
town in The Netherlands, or people who live in Texas within 3 hours'
drive of each other.  Does this mean anything, or is it coincidental?
:)

	Julia

waiting for a response from someone not fitting either geographical
category now


Sorry, every time I started to respond to a post in this thread, I noticed 
that someone else has already responded and covered the ground I was going 
to cover.

I promise I'll try to be faster in the future... :-)

Reggie Bautista
For The Diversity Of The List Maru


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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Julia Thompson]

Dan Minette wrote:
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 9:22 AM
> Subject: Re: Some things are too good to last
> 
> > Dan Minette wrote:
> > >
> > > I hit reply on a post from Sonja, and it went to her instead of the
> list.
> > > That's the first time that's happend to me.  Anyway, here it is.
> > >
[great snippage]
> > > I do not see how you can ask someone to have ignored your husbands
> threats
> > > to people's livelihoods.
> >
> > I haven't seen any evidence that he's about to put that sort of negative
> > information up; all he's done this week is indicate displeasure with the
> > list with his .sig.
> 
> I agree, and that's fair enough.  I know that Jeroen's recent responses to
> me have been much easier to deal with.  He has strongly pushed his points,
> but has kept the conversation on topic.  Yes, he has ignored some of my
> questions, but in my head I just assume that he doesn't have a good answer
> for those questions right now.  I've seen other posters delay answers to
> certain questions until they are happy with responses.
> 
> But, Adam brought up an example of a past threat, and I was responding to
> Sonja's response to that, etc.  That threat no longer seems operative,
> which is very good, but it is a reasonable example of a threat that could
> not have been ignored.

Fair enough.  I just prefer not to drag up negative things from the past
if it can be avoided.
 
> > I think that on the basis of this one .sig file change, some people are
> > overreacting.
> 
> My reaction was at the time was "please let this not be the start of a
> pattern."  It doesn't appear to be, Jeroen seems to write lotsa different
> things in the .sig file.

Right.  I just took it as momentary frustration (keeping in tone with
the rest of the post!) rearing its head, and might have glossed over it
altogether if it hadn't been pointed out.

Rob, if you're going to point out stuff in Jeroen's .sig file, can you
point out the good things, too?  I'm liable to miss those, as well.  :)
 
> >If he actually modifies content on his website to reflect
> > this negativity, that's another matter entirely, but he hasn't done a
> > damn thing to it this week as far as I can tell.  All he has done is
> > modify his .sig file.  Lighten up, guys, would ya?
> 
> I have no problem with the .sig. However,  I didn't respond to Sonja's
> first comment that the original protest of Gautam, myself, and others was
> just paranoia because I was willing to let things lie and because I allowed
> a bit of hyperbola by someone who was subjected to a number of rude emails.
> (That of course was wrong.)
> 
> However, after it became a repeated theme for Sonja; I decided to respond.
> I have no problems with Jeroen put in his sig.  I have a significant
> problem with any credible threat of RL consequences.  That is not paranoia.
> Indeed, my issue is with Sonja's posts, not Jeroen's sigs.  I differ with
> them and thus write a rebuttal. No hard feelings.  Indeed, a casual perusal
> of my posting patterns indicates that I do tend to write rebuttals for
> posts I differ with, even when they are written by people I like. :-)

Yes, you do.

Actually, I expected nothing less from you when I hit "send".  And I'd
like to take the opportunity to let you know that I appreciate the
cordial tone of your response to me.

One thing I find interesting, going over this thread:  All responses
spawned by that one post of Jeroen's that come through as being part of
the thread as threaded by Netscape come either from people in Jeroen's
town in The Netherlands, or people who live in Texas within 3 hours'
drive of each other.  Does this mean anything, or is it coincidental? 
:)

Julia

waiting for a response from someone not fitting either geographical
category now
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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message -
From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: Some things are too good to last


> Dan Minette wrote:
> >
> > I hit reply on a post from Sonja, and it went to her instead of the
list.
> > That's the first time that's happend to me.  Anyway, here it is.
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 7:29 AM
> > Subject: Re: Some things are too good to last
> >
> > > "Adam C. Lipscomb" wrote:
> >
> > > > Well, who wrote "Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website:"?  If
listmember
> > > > "J" uses a website to slam the list, or threatens to do so, with
the
> > > > implicit threat that some members of the list may have libelous
> > > > information posted about them, are other listmembers not allowed to
> > > > say anything about it?  How are other listmembers supposed to react
to
> > > > that?  Say nothing?
> > >
> > > It's an idea that might perhaps work. It hasn't been tried so far and
> > > everything else failed. But males in general, usually aren't very
good at
> > > that. So I forgive you. ;o)
> >
> > You appear to ignore extemely credible evidence that has been presented
on
> > Brin-l.detailing how such a threat cannot simply be ignored.   The
problem
> > with such a website with names and libel is that it is extremely
visable.
> > Let us assume that a curious person who heard about Gautam would type
in
> > his name.  It is probable that it would list Jeroen's page as one of
the
> > first hits.  The same is true with my name.
> >
> > Gautam said that his employer would require him to quit the list; they
> > don't like conterversy.  Other folks, who are looking for work, might
face
> > a situation when someone doing due dilligence might simply types their
> > names into a search engine and comes up with that website as a hit.
They
> > might not even be told why they were not offered a job.  Yes, they
might
> > not, too.  But, it is not beyond the pale to expect someone to spend 3
> > minutes checking on the public information available on someone looking
for
> > work.
> >
> > I do not see how you can ask someone to have ignored your husbands
threats
> > to people's livelihoods.
>
> I haven't seen any evidence that he's about to put that sort of negative
> information up; all he's done this week is indicate displeasure with the
> list with his .sig.

I agree, and that's fair enough.  I know that Jeroen's recent responses to
me have been much easier to deal with.  He has strongly pushed his points,
but has kept the conversation on topic.  Yes, he has ignored some of my
questions, but in my head I just assume that he doesn't have a good answer
for those questions right now.  I've seen other posters delay answers to
certain questions until they are happy with responses.

But, Adam brought up an example of a past threat, and I was responding to
Sonja's response to that, etc.  That threat no longer seems operative,
which is very good, but it is a reasonable example of a threat that could
not have been ignored.

> I think that on the basis of this one .sig file change, some people are
> overreacting.

My reaction was at the time was "please let this not be the start of a
pattern."  It doesn't appear to be, Jeroen seems to write lotsa different
things in the .sig file.

>If he actually modifies content on his website to reflect
> this negativity, that's another matter entirely, but he hasn't done a
> damn thing to it this week as far as I can tell.  All he has done is
> modify his .sig file.  Lighten up, guys, would ya?

I have no problem with the .sig. However,  I didn't respond to Sonja's
first comment that the original protest of Gautam, myself, and others was
just paranoia because I was willing to let things lie and because I allowed
a bit of hyperbola by someone who was subjected to a number of rude emails.
(That of course was wrong.)

However, after it became a repeated theme for Sonja; I decided to respond.
I have no problems with Jeroen put in his sig.  I have a significant
problem with any credible threat of RL consequences.  That is not paranoia.
Indeed, my issue is with Sonja's posts, not Jeroen's sigs.  I differ with
them and thus write a rebuttal. No hard feelings.  Indeed, a casual perusal
of my posting patterns indicates that I do tend to write rebuttals for
posts I differ with, even when they are written by people I like. :-)


Dan M.

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Julia Thompson]

Dan Minette wrote:
> 
> I hit reply on a post from Sonja, and it went to her instead of the list.
> That's the first time that's happend to me.  Anyway, here it is.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 7:29 AM
> Subject: Re: Some things are too good to last
> 
> > "Adam C. Lipscomb" wrote:
> 
> > > Well, who wrote "Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website:"?  If listmember
> > > "J" uses a website to slam the list, or threatens to do so, with the
> > > implicit threat that some members of the list may have libelous
> > > information posted about them, are other listmembers not allowed to
> > > say anything about it?  How are other listmembers supposed to react to
> > > that?  Say nothing?
> >
> > It's an idea that might perhaps work. It hasn't been tried so far and
> > everything else failed. But males in general, usually aren't very good at
> > that. So I forgive you. ;o)
> 
> You appear to ignore extemely credible evidence that has been presented on
> Brin-l.detailing how such a threat cannot simply be ignored.   The problem
> with such a website with names and libel is that it is extremely visable.
> Let us assume that a curious person who heard about Gautam would type in
> his name.  It is probable that it would list Jeroen's page as one of the
> first hits.  The same is true with my name.
> 
> Gautam said that his employer would require him to quit the list; they
> don't like conterversy.  Other folks, who are looking for work, might face
> a situation when someone doing due dilligence might simply types their
> names into a search engine and comes up with that website as a hit.  They
> might not even be told why they were not offered a job.  Yes, they might
> not, too.  But, it is not beyond the pale to expect someone to spend 3
> minutes checking on the public information available on someone looking for
> work.
> 
> I do not see how you can ask someone to have ignored your husbands threats
> to people's livelihoods.

I haven't seen any evidence that he's about to put that sort of negative
information up; all he's done this week is indicate displeasure with the
list with his .sig.  And I wouldn't have noticed it for awhile if Rob
hadn't brought it to the attention of anyone who missed it.  I think
that on the basis of this one .sig file change, some people are
overreacting.  If he actually modifies content on his website to reflect
this negativity, that's another matter entirely, but he hasn't done a
damn thing to it this week as far as I can tell.  All he has done is
modify his .sig file.  Lighten up, guys, would ya?

What I find interesting is that I haven't seen anyone take Jeroen to
task publicly for yelling, which was the most annoying thing to *me*. 
The only response to the yelling part of the post, as opposed to the
.sig, was a response to a small part of the content, and it looked
reasonable to me.

Julia
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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Dan Minette]

I hit reply on a post from Sonja, and it went to her instead of the list.
That's the first time that's happend to me.  Anyway, here it is.

- Original Message -
From: "Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: Some things are too good to last

> "Adam C. Lipscomb" wrote:



> > Well, who wrote "Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website:"?  If listmember
> > "J" uses a website to slam the list, or threatens to do so, with the
> > implicit threat that some members of the list may have libelous
> > information posted about them, are other listmembers not allowed to
> > say anything about it?  How are other listmembers supposed to react to
> > that?  Say nothing?
>
> It's an idea that might perhaps work. It hasn't been tried so far and
> everything else failed. But males in general, usually aren't very good at
> that. So I forgive you. ;o)

You appear to ignore extemely credible evidence that has been presented on
Brin-l.detailing how such a threat cannot simply be ignored.   The problem
with such a website with names and libel is that it is extremely visable.
Let us assume that a curious person who heard about Gautam would type in
his name.  It is probable that it would list Jeroen's page as one of the
first hits.  The same is true with my name.

Gautam said that his employer would require him to quit the list; they
don't like conterversy.  Other folks, who are looking for work, might face
a situation when someone doing due dilligence might simply types their
names into a search engine and comes up with that website as a hit.  They
might not even be told why they were not offered a job.  Yes, they might
not, too.  But, it is not beyond the pale to expect someone to spend 3
minutes checking on the public information available on someone looking for
work.

I do not see how you can ask someone to have ignored your husbands threats
to people's livelihoods.

Dan M.


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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

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"Adam C. Lipscomb" wrote:

> Well, who wrote "Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website:"?  If listmember
> "J" uses a website to slam the list, or threatens to do so, with the
> implicit threat that some members of the list may have libelous
> information posted about them, are other listmembers not allowed to
> say anything about it?  How are other listmembers supposed to react to
> that?  Say nothing?

It's an idea that might perhaps work. It hasn't been tried so far and
everything else failed. But males in general, usually aren't very good at
that. So I forgive you. ;o)

> Threats, even implied ones, tend to get my, and others', ire up.

So I've noticed.

Sonja
GCU Restraint

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Adam C. Lipscomb]

Sonja wrote:


> Robert Seeberger wrote:
>
> >
__

> > > Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website:
http://www.Brin-L.com
> > >
> >
> > I suppose it was only to be expected.
>
> This kind of exchanges really aren't helping to restore the calm. In
fact they
> are contributing to the continuing adversity. Unfortunatly some get
more heat
> for doing so then others.

Well, who wrote "Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website:"?  If listmember
"J" uses a website to slam the list, or threatens to do so, with the
implicit threat that some members of the list may have libelous
information posted about them, are other listmembers not allowed to
say anything about it?  How are other listmembers supposed to react to
that?  Say nothing?

Threats, even implied ones, tend to get my, and others', ire up.

Adam C. Lipscomb
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Silence.  I am watching television."  - Spider Jerusalem

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

Robert Seeberger wrote:

> __
> > Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website:  http://www.Brin-L.com
> >
>
> I suppose it was only to be expected.

This kind of exchanges really aren't helping to restore the calm. In fact they
are contributing to the continuing adversity. Unfortunatly some get more heat
for doing so then others.

Sonja


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RE: Some things are too good to last

[Deborah Harrell]

--- Reggie Bautista wrote:
> Jean-Louis replied:
> >I suggest drinking Halloween floats :
> >
> >1 part blond beer (eg. lager) with orange coloring
> >1 part Guinness which should float on the lager!
> 
> Irish bars here in KC (and presumably elsewhere)
> call this either a 
> half-and-half (if the bottom half is Harp) or a
> Black and Tan (if the bottom half is Bass).
> 
> Ahh, the memories!  A pint-sized half-and-half in my
> right hand, a 
> double-shot of Bushmills Special Reserve in my left
> hand, and a bar full of 
> drunks singing Irish drinking songs along with Eddie
> Delahunt... Those were *really* the days :-)
> 
> Reggie Bautista
> Haven't even had a good glass of Mead in the past
> year Maru :-(

This reminds me of a Halloween ride in 1990: for our
pre-ride brunch we had mead, coffee with Bailey's, and
mimosas (orange juice & champagne) - with assorted
quiches/muffins/fruit to dilute the alcohol! - then
set off for the lake.  I was one of several to 'kiss
the dirt' as none of the horses had participated in a
costumed event before (no one was hurt as we were,
ahem, 'well-lubricated'), but the real problem came
later, when I was holding the reins for another woman
to re-mount.  

Her mare spooked violently at her flapping cape (the
scary mask probably didn't help either :P ), reared
and leaped into the lake; not having sense enough to
drop the reins, I wound up _under_ Magnolia, and
finally let go of them when a pastern (the joint right
above the hoof) smacked my forehead.  [I didn't see it
of course, but a steel-shod hoof would have at least
cracked my soused head; those on shore said she
appeared to stumble before she leaped out of the water
- I think she sensed that I was under her and jumped
over me...] 

What's that saying about "watching over fools and
idiots?"   I haven't ridden, driven or
operated any equipment whatsoever with more than a
half-glass of wine on-board since.

There But For The Grace Of God Go I Maru

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Reggie Bautista]

William wrote:

> >P.S. A single female on our list should dress up as a large
> >biologist/gardener alien in a tasteful pink dress with matching 
pillbox hat.
> >Let's see how long it takes someone to figure out that she's dressed 
as a
> >Jackie-O-Linten.

Alberto replied:

> No, no, no. The men and women in the list should act in an assertive
> way, showing that we abhor terrorism and those that support it.
>
> So, all women should be naked, and the men should drink
> alchoholic beverages during Halloween.


Julia responded:

I'd say "I'll drink to that", but by the above, I ought not be drinking,
but rather getting naked.  :)


Ronn observed:

One may well lead to the other . . .


Old Rita Rudner joke:
"I think it's funny that they're putting warning labels on alchohol saying 
that it's dangerous to drink alchohol while pregnant because without 
alchohol, most women wouldn't be that way."

Reggie Bautista


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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Ronn Blankenship]

At 10:45 AM 10/29/02, Julia Thompson wrote:

Alberto Monteiro wrote:
>
> William Taylor wrote:
> >
> >P.S. A single female on our list should dress up as a large
> >biologist/gardener alien in a tasteful pink dress with matching 
pillbox hat.
> >Let's see how long it takes someone to figure out that she's dressed as a
> >Jackie-O-Linten.
> >
> No, no, no. The men and women in the list should act in an assertive
> way, showing that we abhor terrorism and those that support it.
>
> So, all women should be naked, and the men should drink
> alchoholic beverages during Halloween.

I'd say "I'll drink to that", but by the above, I ought not be drinking,
but rather getting naked.  :)



One may well lead to the other . . .



--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle


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RE: Some things are too good to last

[Reggie Bautista]

I wrote:

> Haven't even had a good glass of Mead in the past year Maru :-(


Jean-Louis replied:

Come up north!  Mead and cider have made a big comeback in Quebec.
Lots of good stuff like, for example, ice cider : apple cider made
in the same way as icewine.


Oh, we have plenty of mead available in the area.  Most good liquor stores 
around here carry at least Chaucer's Mead and a couple of brands that are 
made and bottled in Missouri (Missouri has quite a few very good wineries; 
there's nothing quite like a drive through Missouri wine country in the 
fall).  I just don't drink very often, and one place I always get a good 
glass of mead or three is the Kansas City Renaissance Festival, which my 
wife and I did not get a chance to attend this year (last year we went four 
or five time).

But thanks for the info, I'd love to visit Quebec!

Reggie Bautista


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RE: Some things are too good to last

[Jean-Louis Couturier]

De : Reggie Bautista [mailto:baure_gakan@;hotmail.com]
> Haven't even had a good glass of Mead in the past year Maru :-(

Come up north!  Mead and cider have made a big comeback in Quebec.
Lots of good stuff like, for example, ice cider : apple cider made 
in the same way as icewine.

Jean-Louis
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RE: Some things are too good to last

[Reggie Bautista]

Jean-Louis replied:

I suggest drinking Halloween floats :

1 part blond beer (eg. lager) with orange coloring
1 part Guinness which should float on the lager!


Irish bars here in KC (and presumably elsewhere) call this either a 
half-and-half (if the bottom half is Harp) or a Black and Tan (if the bottom 
half is Bass).

Ahh, the memories!  A pint-sized half-and-half in my right hand, a 
double-shot of Bushmills Special Reserve in my left hand, and a bar full of 
drunks singing Irish drinking songs along with Eddie Delahunt...
Those were *really* the days :-)

Reggie Bautista
Haven't even had a good glass of Mead in the past year Maru :-(


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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Julia Thompson]

Alberto Monteiro wrote:
> 
> William Taylor wrote:
> >
> >P.S. A single female on our list should dress up as a large
> >biologist/gardener alien in a tasteful pink dress with matching pillbox hat.
> >Let's see how long it takes someone to figure out that she's dressed as a
> >Jackie-O-Linten.
> >
> No, no, no. The men and women in the list should act in an assertive
> way, showing that we abhor terrorism and those that support it.
> 
> So, all women should be naked, and the men should drink
> alchoholic beverages during Halloween.

I'd say "I'll drink to that", but by the above, I ought not be drinking,
but rather getting naked.  :)

Julia
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RE: Some things are too good to last

[Jean-Louis Couturier]

De : Alberto Monteiro [mailto:albmont@;centroin.com.br]

> No, no, no. The men and women in the list should act in an assertive
> way, showing that we abhor terrorism and those that support it.
>
> So, all women should be naked, and the men should drink 
> alchoholic beverages during Halloween.

I suggest drinking Halloween floats : 

1 part blond beer (eg. lager) with orange coloring
1 part Guinness which should float on the lager!

Jean-Louis
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RE: Some things are too good to last

[Jean-Louis Couturier]

De : Alberto Monteiro [mailto:albmont@;centroin.com.br]

> No, no, no. The men and women in the list should act in an assertive
> way, showing that we abhor terrorism and those that support it.
>
> So, all women should be naked, and the men should drink 
> alchoholic beverages during Halloween.

I'd be all for that if it wasn't that temperatures are nearing zero
these days.  We'll stick to the alcohol part.

Naked good, hypothermia bad.  (Especially when my wife sticks her
freezing feet on my until-then warm legs)

Jean-Louis
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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Jim Sharkey]

Rob wrote:
> 
>  http://www.Brin-L.com
> 
>  
>  I suppose it was only to be expected.

I'm of two minds about that.  Yes, Jeroen sometimes doesn't know when to quit, and 
he's the architect of some of his difficulties.  But he does seem to get more than his 
fair share of "the business" over it, and despite my own feelings on his apparent need 
to police certain people's behavior, it does look like a dogpile.

Jim

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Deborah Harrell]

--- Julia wrote:
> Steve Sloan II wrote:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > > You mean Hoon are having sex with Urs? Tymbrimi
> are selling
> > > obscene glyphs under the counter? Traeki are
> painting
> > > themselves green and posing as Christmas trees
> only to sneek
> > > out of the house after having been decorated?
> > 
> > Kanten are walking up to broccolli-hating George
> Bush Sr. and yelling "boo"? ;-)
> 
> Actually, his problem was with *eating* broccoli,
> not with broccoli per
> se.  So Kanten might be more comfortable around him
> for *that* reason. 
> Me, I *love* eating broccoli.  >:)
> 
> Mebbe we should all go dress up as Kanten on
> Halloween and find George H. W. Bush.  >:)  >:)
> 
> (Oh, and Barbara Bush's response to the whole
> broccoli thing was
> something along the lines of, "Any man who eats pork
> rinds can't be all
> good."  I loved that response.)

A meal with food for the heart (broccoli) _and_ the
soul (pork rinds)?!  Preceded by an appetizer of good
humor...mmmMMMm. :)

VFP Chitlins

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Alberto Monteiro]

Gary Nunn wrote:
>
>> So, all women should be naked, and the men should drink
>> alchoholic beverages during Halloween.
>
>Dude! If that's Halloween in your country, I think I need to celebrate
>Halloween there!
>
Of course not! What do you think we are? We are a 
_Christian_ country! We don't celebrate Halloween,
a Satanist holyday.

This is the way we celebrate Carnival!

Alberto Monteiro


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RE: Some things are too good to last

[Gary Nunn]

Alberto wrote...
> So, all women should be naked, and the men should drink
> alchoholic beverages during Halloween.


Dude! If that's Halloween in your country, I think I need to celebrate
Halloween there!

Gary

>From painfully conservative Delaware Ohio


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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 10/28/2002 5:56:28 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Jackie-O-Linten.
 >
 No, no, no. The men and women in the list should act in an assertive
 way, showing that we abhor terrorism and those that support it.
 
 So, all women should be naked, and the men should drink 
 alchoholic beverages during Halloween.
  >>

Jackie O was a terrorist?

Oh well.

Have some Madera, m' dear
It comes from an excellent year
 (Flanders & Swann)


William Taylor
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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Alberto Monteiro]

William Taylor wrote:
>
>P.S. A single female on our list should dress up as a large 
>biologist/gardener alien in a tasteful pink dress with matching pillbox hat. 
>Let's see how long it takes someone to figure out that she's dressed as a 
>Jackie-O-Linten.
>
No, no, no. The men and women in the list should act in an assertive
way, showing that we abhor terrorism and those that support it.

So, all women should be naked, and the men should drink 
alchoholic beverages during Halloween.

Alberto Monteiro


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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Adam C. Lipscomb]

William wrote:
> What's a jewish street punk at Christmas time?
> 
> A rebel without a Claus.

*blink*

*twitch*

Ouch.

Adam C. Lipscomb
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Silence.  I am watching television."  - Spider Jerusalem

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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 10/28/2002 4:55:42 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< << 
  Mebbe we should all go dress up as Kanten on Halloween and find George
  H. W. Bush.  >:)  >:) >>

P.S. A single female on our list should dress up as a large 
biologist/gardener alien in a tasteful pink dress with matching pillbox hat. 
Let's see how long it takes someone to figure out that she's dressed as a 
Jackie-O-Linten.

William Taylor
--
No one dared to laugh when the Thennanin 
put the tube of Brill Creame to his lips...
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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 10/28/2002 4:48:27 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< 
 Mebbe we should all go dress up as Kanten on Halloween and find George
 H. W. Bush.  >:)  >:)
  >>

Not all. If you all dress as Kanten, I'll go as a can of cheese sauce.

William Taylor

What's a jewish street punk at Christmas time?

A rebel without a Claus.
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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 10/28/2002 4:32:55 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 > You mean Hoon are having sex with Urs? Tymbrimi are selling
 > obscene glyphs under the counter? Traeki are painting
 > themselves green and posing as Christmas trees only to sneek
 > out of the house after having been decorated?
 
 Kanten are walking up to broccolli-hating George Bush Sr. and
 yelling "boo"? ;-) >>

And an insectoid race is running about with sun lamps?

They can do, the Tandu, the tan due to you.

William Taylor
-
The USPS printed a huge error on their 
stamps a few years ago. Because of a rate 
increase, for the first time ever, Daffy Duck 
had more cents that Bugs Bunny.

(Yea, it does work better verbaly.)
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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Julia Thompson]

Steve Sloan II wrote:
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > You mean Hoon are having sex with Urs? Tymbrimi are selling
> > obscene glyphs under the counter? Traeki are painting
> > themselves green and posing as Christmas trees only to sneek
> > out of the house after having been decorated?
> 
> Kanten are walking up to broccolli-hating George Bush Sr. and
> yelling "boo"? ;-)

Actually, his problem was with *eating* broccoli, not with broccoli per
se.  So Kanten might be more comfortable around him for *that* reason. 
Me, I *love* eating broccoli.  >:)

Mebbe we should all go dress up as Kanten on Halloween and find George
H. W. Bush.  >:)  >:)

(Oh, and Barbara Bush's response to the whole broccoli thing was
something along the lines of, "Any man who eats pork rinds can't be all
good."  I loved that response.)

Julia
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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Steve Sloan II]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> You mean Hoon are having sex with Urs? Tymbrimi are selling
> obscene glyphs under the counter? Traeki are painting
> themselves green and posing as Christmas trees only to sneek
> out of the house after having been decorated?

Kanten are walking up to broccolli-hating George Bush Sr. and
yelling "boo"? ;-)
__
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Brin-L list pages ... http://www.sloan3d.com/brinl
Chmeee's 3D Objects  http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee
3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com
Software  Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links
Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com
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Re: Some things are too good to last

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 10/28/2002 3:10:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Corrupted-World-of-Brin-L Website:   http://www.Brin-L.com
 >
 
 I suppose it was only to be expected.
 
 
 rob >>

You mean Hoon are having sex with Urs? Tymbrimi are selling obscene glyphs 
under the counter? Traeki are painting themselves green and posing as 
Christmas trees only to sneek out of the house after having been decorated?

William Taylor
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