subject:"Re\: Disturbing evidence of torture"

On Fri, 7 May 2004 20:30:00 -0700, Messiah Mike Lee
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I don't quite get what your point is here. Somewhere in there, I supposed
 you think that the GOP is worse than Stalin, but other than that, I'm
 baffled.

Baffled Mike Lee throws in that somehow people who oppose him support Stalin.

 
 And the Supreme Court has ruled against them when? And they have ignored the
 
 Court after that ruling when? And the administration implemented the Patriot
 Act despite Congress not passing it?

Actually they did,  many provisions of the Patriot Act 2 were inserted
into other bills.

The so-called Patriot Act II, as the press dubbed it, was written by
the Justice Department. The Center for Public Integrity discovered it
last year and exposed the document, initiating a public outcry that
forced the government to back down on its plans.

But critics say the government didn't abandon its goals after the
uproar; it simply extracted the most controversial provisions from
Patriot Act II and slipped them surreptitiously into other bills, such
as the Intelligence Authorization Act, to avoid raising alarm.

Wired News: Bush Grabs New Power for FBI  
http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,61792,00.html

And it is illegal to tell the world that you're suing to challenge the
Patriot Act.

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51423-2004Apr28.html


   By the way, Bush just used the word apologize
   but it still won't make you happy. What he did was gutsy
  and difficult
   and you don't care.

I was referring to the interviews for Arab TV, not the next day statement.


 
  Bush calls treatment of Iraqi prisoners 'abhorrent,' but
  doesn't apologize
  http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/Iraq/2004/05/05/448149-ap.html
 
  You have low standards for gutsy and difficult.
 
 You like to move the goalposts a lot.


  I agree he is a right wing moron.  I cannot see Kerry doing
  anything as bad as this gang has managed to do and Kerry was
  way down on my list of candidates.  
 
 Well, that's what happens when you let Mr. Mole vote. Kerry has said he'll
 kiss Eurabian/UN ass in the war on terror. He'll out-Chamberlain Spain.
 
 Also, let's not forget, it wasn't just 30 years ago today that Sgt. Kerry
 threw his medals away. Since then, he's been about the most consistently
 leftist member of Congress. Even if he had reformed, I wouldn't care.
 Really, there's something wrong with you if you buy into this shit even when
 you're 20.

Kerry has the best of both worlds, a war hero who came back and
opposed the Vietnam War.

Get out of your video game world and face real life.

 You might want to keep in mind that the Geneva Conventions prohibit things
 like keeping POWs in cells or isolated from each other. Those are the kinds
 of provisions we need to violate. When the cops interrogate criminals they
 don't put them all in the same holding cell so they can get their stories
 straight.

Mike, still defending violating Geneva conventions.

 
 What our MPs did to those prisoners in Iraq sucked. Whether it technically
 violated the conventions, I don't know or care. I'm proud of how the Bushies
 have sucked it up and taken their lumps. No, they haven't been perfect. Bush
 didn't say the A-word timely. Rumsfeld was a little defensive the first time
 he was confronted about it. But what the Chappaquiddick Kid did today was
 beyond shameful, and Rumsfeld was spot on, only losing his temper at
 stupidity a couple of times today. If you think the dog and pony show that
 went on today is going to play well with the voters, please keep thinking
 that. As a great man once said, Bring it on!

Quoting Kerry now?  Bring it on.  You seem to be desperately trying to
tie in the last 80 years of leftist scandals, first Stalin, then
Chappaquiddick.
 
  Amnesty International and others in the coalition, however,
  have argued that those held in Guantanamo are presumed to be
  prisoners of war, and if there is any doubt about their
  status, it is not the prerogative of the US secretary of
  defense to unilaterally make the determination.
 
 Fuck Amnesty International. I used to give them money. What a maroon.
 
 Amnesty International can take the issue to court or go to hell. They choose
 soft targets and ignore the really bad stuff. Poseurs.
 
  According to Article 5 of the Third Geneva Convention, said
  Amnesty, the US must convene a competent tribunal that is
  competent and impartial to decide on their status.
 
 Read more, believe AI propaganda less.
 
  This is also the position exposed by the International
  Committee of the Red Cross, considered a key interpreter of
  the Geneva Conventions.
 
 First, that would be espoused, not exposed and second, too bad for the Red
 Cross. They shouldn't play politics like this or they could go the way of
 French wine in America. Really, I'm about done with taking crap off my moral
 inferiors, especially when they are wallowing in their pretensions to moral
 superiority. Which has a lot to

Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-08 Thread Dan Minette

- Original Message - 
From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

 I missed what happened today.  What did Kennedy do?

 Julia

I forgot to mention one interchange.  Kennedy said that Rumsfeld et. al.
knew of the abuses from Red Cross reports and did nothing.  Rumsfeld took
exception to this.  Technically, Rumsfeld was correct.  In reality, there
was a small, and tremendously inadaquate response, not no response.

Given the reports by the Red Cross, Rumsfeld should have know that
something was seriously  wrong at the prisons and a tremendous effort to
take immediate corrective action should have taken place.  Bells and
whistles should have gone off.  They didn't.

Trying to piece things together, it appears that the assumption that
Americans are so naturally good that abuse is impossible underlied the
planning.  Anyone who accepted the facts that Gautam so clearly showed
would never have put understaffed undertrained, virtually unsupervised
guards on an overcrouded prison, asked them to prepare prisoners for
questioning, and expected the prisoners to be properly treated.  It boggles
the mind.

The intertwined sins of management by wishfull thinking and denial of
reality seems to have been at the heart of this.  It seems more and more
obvious that, while the war itself was managed very well, the peace
aftwards was significantly bungled.  It isn't surprising: people do what
they believe in much better than what they don't believe in.  From the
start, Bush didn't believe in nation building.  We went into Iraq assuming
we'd win (which we did very well), we'd walk in as liberators (which sorta
happened...opinions were split), and the exile leaders who've been
whispering in our years would quickly form a temporary government that
would lead to quick elections, and a democracy that would be a great US
ally.

Just like my old company, those who had experience and understanding of the
real challanges were dismissed as naysayers.  State was virtually shut out,
the general who had a more realistic assessment of the requirements of
post-victory Iraq was pushed out of the loop after stating realistic
requirements.  The financial cost of the post-war period was also
denied...remember when it was all to be paid out of the increased oil
revenue?

Even now, State is being shut out of the loop.  One day Powell tells the
Black Caucus there will be no request for additional funds for Iraq, the
next day there is a request for 25 billion.

Dan M.

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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-08 Thread Mike Lee

Gary Denton, dumb to the last drop:

  And the Supreme Court has ruled against them when? And they have 
  ignored the
  
  Court after that ruling when? And the administration 
 implemented the 
  Patriot Act despite Congress not passing it?
 
 Actually they did,  many provisions of the Patriot Act 2 were 
 inserted into other bills.

Passed by Congress, presumably. My point stands.

 And it is illegal to tell the world that you're suing to 
 challenge the Patriot Act.
 
 washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51423-2004Apr28.html

I know you like to believe everything the Washington Post says, but we'll
see how this all settles out. Not that I'm all in favor of the Patriot Act,
since that mow-ron Ashcroft has begun using it to go after pornographers and
such. I really hate that guy. Talk about undermining the war on terror.
Abusing the extraordinary powers granted by the Patriot Act to serve his own
sexually hysterical agenda really makes us less safe. We need the government
to have those powers to have a hope of keeping up with terrorists. We can't
afford government using those powers for other purposes. Ashcroft has proven
all the critics and libertarians right. Keep Rumsfeld, ditch Asscroft.

  Really, there's something wrong with you if you buy into this shit 
  even when you're 20.
 
 Kerry has the best of both worlds, a war hero who came back 
 and opposed the Vietnam War.

I know that's how you like to paint it, but you guys like to paint Teddy
Kennedy as a car safety expert and a great swimmer too.

If Kerry had the courage of his convictions, he should have gone to Canada,
not Vietnam. I really don't understand what the hell motivated him back
then, which is just one more thing about him that gives me the creeps. I
don't think he has a clue what he's about, and he never has. He reminds me
of the Scream mask ghoul, except there's something behind the ghoul's mask.

 Get out of your video game world and face real life.

Boy, I bet you're a great dad.

  You might want to keep in mind that the Geneva Conventions prohibit 
  things like keeping POWs in cells or isolated from each 
 other. Those 
  are the kinds of provisions we need to violate. When the cops 
  interrogate criminals they don't put them all in the same 
 holding cell 
  so they can get their stories straight.
 
 Mike, still defending violating Geneva conventions.

Absolutely. You'd think that Moses brought down the Geneva Conventions along
with the 10 commandments, the way some people talk about it. 

There's all kinds of legalistic wrangling going on right now, and, it likely
will turn out, we have not violated the Geneva Conventions. But that's not
the real point we really care about. The Geneva Conventions are (mostly
rightly) revered as a commitment to limit the savagery and brutality of war.
Like the Sermon on the Mount, they may be a little naïve, dumb and
philosophically incoherent, but the thrust of it is pretty powerful and
worth paying attention to.

Here's the point: the people we're fighting against care fuck all about the
Geneva Conventions, except as a club to beat us with. The sight of the Arab
world lifting it's dirty little pinkie finger and offering cocktail party
moral criticism to the West over treatment of prisoners is even more absurd
than it is hypocritical and disgusting. It's like listening to Ted Bundy
bitch about the guards calling him Nancy and spitting in his soup.

Where America has committed serious spirit of the law violations of the
Geneva Conventions, we've already investigated, taken it seriously and made
changes. As for letter of the law violations, they're fine with me.

Let's not forget, those pictures were taken months ago. The people involved
were in deep shit long before those pictures went public. The system has
been working pretty well to deal with this. The soldier who first reported
the abuses has not been disciplined--his reports triggered a huge
investigation.

  well with the voters, please keep thinking that. As a great 
 man once said, Bring it on!
 
 Quoting Kerry now?  Bring it on.  You seem to be desperately 
 trying to tie in the last 80 years of leftist scandals, 
 first Stalin, then Chappaquiddick.

Well, I'm tying in, but it didn't feel desperate to me. But it is nice to
see the weakening of the left, with you only being able to drown party girls
after a few decades of rule.

And that was Kerry quoting Bush, by the way.

If there's a single event that epitomizes the liberal pussification of
America, it is the reaction of your ilk to Bush saying Bring 'em on!
First, you cover your eyes, scream Eeek!, jump up on stools and flutter your
hankies that Bush would dare say something so macho and provocative. Then
you prop up Botox Boy and have him echo it, while you all shriek and faint
like teenage girls seeing the Beatles for the first time.

Clinton used Fleetwood Mac's Don't Stop as his theme. I'm waiting for
Kerry to play Just a Gigolo.

   the US must convene a competent tribunal

Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

Sat, 8 May 2004 23:11:39 +, Alberto Monteiro
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Why would the USA torturers _document_ the torture? When
 we had state-sponsored torture in Brazil, back in the 70s,
 when we were fighting communist by closing brazilian
 economy and establishing state monopolies, the torturers
 at least were shameful of that.
 
 This looks like the arrogance of the nazis, who documented
 all their atrocities, believing that they would never be
 punished for that
 
 Alberto Monteiro

According to reports these are private cameras which are very common
among U.S. soldiers.

There may have been some psychological embarassment of the prisoners
going on as well.

Knowing the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld gang they will likely solve the
problem by banning cameras for servicemen like they have already
banned pictures of dead Americans and coffins.
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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

On Sat, 8 May 2004 16:10:51 -0500, Dan Minette
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 - Original Message -
 From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 10:43 PM
 Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

  I missed what happened today.  What did Kennedy do?

  Julia

 I forgot to mention one interchange.  Kennedy said that Rumsfeld et. al.
 knew of the abuses from Red Cross reports and did nothing.  Rumsfeld took
 exception to this.  Technically, Rumsfeld was correct.  In reality, there
 was a small, and tremendously inadaquate response, not no response.

Yes, a one paragraph press release - we are investigating reports of abuse.

...
 Trying to piece things together, it appears that the assumption that
 Americans are so naturally good that abuse is impossible underlied the
 planning.  Anyone who accepted the facts that Gautam so clearly showed
 would never have put understaffed undertrained, virtually unsupervised
 guards on an overcrouded prison, asked them to prepare prisoners for
 questioning, and expected the prisoners to be properly treated.  It boggles
 the mind.

The Red Cross, three generals,  David Kay, Bremer, numerous Iraqi's,
the press in the U.K. were all repeatedly reporting problems, which
were ignored.

I think you are minimizing the extent this was military intelligence
policy done with the approval of higher-ups.

The Pentagon, meaning the GOP political appointees, approved of the
tough questioning tactics in Gitmo and Iraq and Afghanistan - despite
as General Taguba said, estimating that something like 60% of the
folks in detention were innocent.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11017-2004May8.html

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/

Systemic Failures, not isolated individuals 

'Cooks and drivers were working as interrogators' 

Many of the prisoners abused at the Abu Ghraib prison were innocent
Iraqis picked up at random by US troops, and incarcerated by
under-qualified intelligence officers, a former US interrogator from
the notorious jail told the Guardian. Torin Nelson, who served as a
military intelligence officer at Guantanamo Bay before moving to Abu
Ghraib as a private contractor last year, blamed the abuses on a
failure of command in US military intelligence and an over-reliance on
private firms. He alleged that those companies were so anxious to meet
the demand for their services that they sent cooks and truck drivers
to work as interrogators. . .

There is no evidence of abuses on the scale of Abu Ghraib being
committed at Guantanamo Bay, but Mr Nelson said that like the Iraqi
jail, it was packed with innocent people, who are only now being
released.

More reports from the UK press of sexual psychological abuse in Gitmo
on my news site.

http://elemming2.blogspot.com

 The intertwined sins of management by wishfull thinking and denial of
 reality seems to have been at the heart of this.  It seems more and more
 obvious that, while the war itself was managed very well, the peace
 aftwards was significantly bungled.  It isn't surprising: people do what
 they believe in much better than what they don't believe in.  From the
 start, Bush didn't believe in nation building.  We went into Iraq assuming
 we'd win (which we did very well), we'd walk in as liberators (which sorta
 happened...opinions were split), and the exile leaders who've been
 whispering in our years would quickly form a temporary government that
 would lead to quick elections, and a democracy that would be a great US
 ally.

 Just like my old company, those who had experience and understanding of the
 real challanges were dismissed as naysayers.  State was virtually shut out,
 the general who had a more realistic assessment of the requirements of
 post-victory Iraq was pushed out of the loop after stating realistic
 requirements.  The financial cost of the post-war period was also
 denied...remember when it was all to be paid out of the increased oil
 revenue?

 Even now, State is being shut out of the loop.  One day Powell tells the
 Black Caucus there will be no request for additional funds for Iraq, the
 next day there is a request for 25 billion.

 Dan M.

Except that the $25 billion is just immediate needs - a bigger
supplemental request is expected after the election.

I had no problem with the Democratic questioning, except for Sore
Lieberman who should have run as Bush's VP.

Rumsfeld was evasive and testy.

Gary

#1 on google for liberal news
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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

On Sat, 8 May 2004 14:43:28 -0700, Mike Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

snip 

This one could be marked as wingnut response number 6.

4) Denial #1: Isolated incident. 

5) Denial #2: It was due to a low-level Bureaucrat. Dear leader would
never tolerate such behavior.

6) Blame the messenger: You liberals always hate America. I notice you
didn't complain when .

Gary, who can actually read
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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

On Sat, 8 May 2004 22:18:23 -0500, Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Sat, 8 May 2004 23:11:39 +, Alberto Monteiro
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Why would the USA torturers _document_ the torture? When
  we had state-sponsored torture in Brazil, back in the 70s,
  when we were fighting communist by closing brazilian
  economy and establishing state monopolies, the torturers
  at least were shameful of that.
 
  This looks like the arrogance of the nazis, who documented
  all their atrocities, believing that they would never be
  punished for that
 
  Alberto Monteiro
 
 According to reports these are private cameras which are very common
 among U.S. soldiers.
 
 There may have been some psychological embarassment of the prisoners
 going on as well.
 
 Knowing the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld gang they will likely solve the
 problem by banning cameras for servicemen like they have already
 banned pictures of dead Americans and coffins.
 

Just spotted that there are reports that Kellogg, Brown and Root is
cutting off non-essential email to and from Iraq for 90 days.

Here is one report:
http://www.kathryncramer.com/wblog/archives/000549.html
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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread Gary Denton

On Thu, 6 May 2004 20:33:41 -0700, Mike Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Gary Denton, putting me in Oh, Please! mode:

It's a start.

 
   Mike Lee
   Savior of the Masses writes:
 
 Like all true Saviors, the masses loathe me.

Something else we might agree on.

  The liberals and leftists you despise were pointing out the
  corruption in the Food for Oil program since just after it
  started.  For various reasons it is a big talking point for
  conservatives now to use against those same liberals and leftists.  
 
 If it's been a big talking point for you ll's for so long, why shut up now?
 Where are the demonstrations organized by ANSWER in front of the UN
 building? Where's Michael Whoore or John Kerry talking about it every damn
 day?

Uh, because the problem which occurred in the past is being
investigated?  Why aren't billionaires for Bush leading marches in
front of the UN or going on quiche strikes?  Could some have made
money off of it?

Ya'll went piranha on Martha Stewart. 

We all didn't take a bite out Martha.  I don't know what idealogical
side was after Stewart.  It looks like she, like Nixon, like Bush,
just started lying about a cover up and it got out of hand.  She does
provide an interesting lesson that when you are worth billions you
shouldn't break laws about a few thousand dollars and then start
digging deeper..

OK, Kofi is Bush's puppet.  If the U.S. didn't hold his purse strings
I am sure he would have kicked Bush and Powell's asses.. i'd buy RAW
tickets for that.

  North Korea has always been a bigger threat, a worse mass murderer.
 
 True enough, on the mass murderer side of it. No, they're not a bigger
 threat. They think they're a bigger threat, but then again they're run by a
 guy who thinks that haircut looks good.

LOL, NK unlike Iraq actually has a half-decent or quarter-decent army
and really has WMDs.

...
 Stalin and Mao don't count, I guess? At least the right supports itty bitty
 dictators, unlike you leftists who say that as soon as a dictator kills 10
 million he's no longer a cult but a church.

Compared to the GOP that arranges for one of the most powerful cult
leaders, but a strong financial and media supporter, to have himself
crowned Messiah in the capital?

http://www.gorenfeld.net/blog//2004_05_01_barchive.html#108362997653753669

 But you make an interesting, if deranged, point: what exactly is it about
 what's going on that's unconstitutional and destroying the separation of
 powers?

This administration.

They have made repeated prolonged assault on the separation of powers,
elevating executive power and classifying secret public meetings with
private citizens.  They have detained US citizens without charges and
without access to an attorney and communication. They have expounded a
right to collect any and all information from any source about anyone
in the United States without revealing a reason.
 By the way, Bush just used the word apologize
 but it still won't make you happy. What he did was gutsy and difficult and
 you don't care. 

Bush calls treatment of Iraqi prisoners 'abhorrent,' but doesn't apologize
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/Iraq/2004/05/05/448149-ap.html

You have low standards for gutsy and difficult.


No matter what he does, you'll find some way to bitch about 
 it. 

Maybe. Except for a couple public moments for a couple months after
9/11 he has been pretty much a miserable, dangerous excuse for a
president.


 Bush will win this election. I'm not unconditionally thrilled about that.
 He's a right wing moron. He's made Howard Stern into a boring political
 scold. He's on the wrong side of every science issue. But this is a single
 issue election. John Kerry will very likely get millions of Americans and
 tens of millions of Muslims killed. I'll miss you, Howard.

I agree he is a right wing moron.  I cannot see Kerry doing anything
as bad as this gang has managed to do and Kerry was way down on my
list of candidates.  

  Rumsfeld had previously said that the Geneva Conventions
  didn't apply to his war.  I guess he didn't expect the photos
  of what that meant disturbing Americans at dinner and
  upsetting his boss.
 
 Quote please. In context.

Washington Post - 

The lawlessness began in January 2002 when Mr. Rumsfeld publicly
declared that hundreds of people detained by U.S. and allied forces in
Afghanistan do not have any rights under the Geneva Conventions.
That was not the case: At a minimum, all those arrested in the war
zone were entitled under the conventions to a formal hearing to
determine whether they were prisoners of war or unlawful combatants.
No such hearings were held, but then Mr. Rumsfeld made clear that U.S.
observance of the convention was now optional. Prisoners, he said,
would be treated for the most part in a manner that is reasonably
consistent with the conventions -- which, the secretary breezily
suggested, was outdated.

From way on your side of the fence NewMax - 

Defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld has

Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread David Land

Mike Lee wrote:

Gary Denton, putting me in Oh, Please! mode:
Cool! Gary found a switch. Is there one marked off nearby?

Dave

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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread Gary Denton

On Fri, 7 May 2004 02:20:34 -0500, Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote: but forgot to include the url

 Washington Post -
 
 The lawlessness began in January 2002 when Mr. Rumsfeld publicly
 declared that hundreds of people detained by U.S. and allied forces in
 Afghanistan do not have any rights under the Geneva Conventions.
 That was not the case: At a minimum, all those arrested in the war
 zone were entitled under the conventions to a formal hearing to
 determine whether they were prisoners of war or unlawful combatants.
 No such hearings were held, but then Mr. Rumsfeld made clear that U.S.
 observance of the convention was now optional. Prisoners, he said,
 would be treated for the most part in a manner that is reasonably
 consistent with the conventions -- which, the secretary breezily
 suggested, was outdated.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5840-2004May5.html
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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread Andrew Paul

From: Mike Lee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

 and those regulars would - I'm guessing - never do anything
 so unimaginably stupid and vile) and normal group dynamic
 behaviors - ones that we see in experimental psychology all
 the time - promptly asserted themselves, until you got the
 atrocity that we saw here.

It wasn't an atrocity. It was Boys and Girls Behaving Badly.

I am inclined to agree. Its not an excuse, and its cleary a public relations disaster,
but I dont think its anything new or unexpected. But its what happens in wars.
I am intrigued by the fact that it seems to be fans of the war who are most upset by 
this.
Perhaps those of us who thought it was a stupid idea to begin with were expecting this 
anyway.
 
Andrew
 


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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread Andrew Paul

From: Mike Lee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Prove it. Seriously. Dead Iraqis (and dead anybodys) look like hell after
they die. If the American military is in any widespread way tacitly or
otherwise condoning and encouraging such abuses, I'll go maddog on them
instead of just on you stupid liberals. The last thing the last defenders of
Western civilization need to do is to give free ammunition to you liberal
slackers.

Yea, we cant have the horrible truth of war coming out can we.
 
Andrew
 
 
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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread Gautam Mukunda

--- Andrew Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Yea, we cant have the horrible truth of war coming
 out can we.
  
 Andrew

Well, the _truth_ of war includes all the people whose
lives are saved and made better.  The truth of war is
not the same thing as the costs of war.  So I'm
comfortable with the truth of this war coming out. 
For all the bad that was done - and we're seeing the
worst of it right now - there's no doubt that Iraq is
a better place to live.

Are you?

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Freedom is not free
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com




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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread Andrew Paul

From: Gautam Mukunda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

--- Andrew Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Yea, we cant have the horrible truth of war coming
 out can we.
 
 Andrew

Well, the _truth_ of war includes all the people whose
lives are saved and made better.  The truth of war is
not the same thing as the costs of war.  So I'm
comfortable with the truth of this war coming out.
For all the bad that was done - and we're seeing the
worst of it right now - there's no doubt that Iraq is
a better place to live.

Are you?

To be honest, I dont know.
I am sure, that,  if the full flower of western secular democracy
takes root in Iraq, it will be. For now I wait and hope.
 
If I felt clearer about what the true motivation of Bush and Co were for the invasion,
I may feel more confident. I dont want to distrust them, and I dont want it to go 
wrong.
But the reasons are not clear, and the moral basis for invading an independent nation 
uncertain.
Was it to do with terrorism? How, why, on what basis?
 
I feel that this lack of clarity as to why they are there feeds down to the people on 
the ground.
They are not drones, they are people risking their lives.  The lack of a simple moral 
basis,
which i feel stems from the rush with which Bush went into this war, not willing to 
wait for
the support of the only body we have for making these decisions, namely the UN, lies at
the heart of the problems in Iraq.
 
I still stand by my original postion on this war. 
You dont declare war and invade countries without absolute moral clarity.
It didn't exist, and that seems to becoming more and more obvious.
And if the leaders dont have it, you cant expect the troops too.
 
You dont start wars.  Its always a stupid thing to do.
 
Andrew
 
 
 
 
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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread Dan Minette

- Original Message - 
From: Andrew Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:40 AM
Subject: RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

 I still stand by my original postion on this war.
 You dont declare war and invade countries without absolute moral clarity.
 It didn't exist, and that seems to becoming more and more obvious.
 And if the leaders dont have it, you cant expect the troops too.

 You dont start wars.  Its always a stupid thing to do.

Lets look at that general statement.  You would be opposed, then, to
stopping the genocide in the Sudan?  You would have thought it wrong to
stop the genocide in Rwanda? You think that the UN's actions in the Balkans
were better defendable than the US's?

I'm not asking questions to say what you think.  But, if you write a
general statement like that, it obviously invites questions to see if you
really hold with such a strong generality.

Dan M.

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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread Gautam Mukunda

--- Andrew Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I feel that this lack of clarity as to why they are
 there feeds down to the people on the ground.
 They are not drones, they are people risking their
 lives.  The lack of a simple moral basis,
 which i feel stems from the rush with which Bush
 went into this war, not willing to wait for
 the support of the only body we have for making
 these decisions, namely the UN, lies at
 the heart of the problems in Iraq.

The UN which just re-elected the Sudan (currently
conducting a genocidal campaign against its Christian
minority) to the Human Rights Committee?

Or the UN which stole, and helped Saddam steal,
billions of dollars from the people of Iraq through
the Oil-for-Fraud program?

Or the UN currently headed by a man who actively
inhibited people from stopping the Rwandan genocide? 
Whose son was employed by one of the major companies
running the Iraqi Oil program, incidentally.

 You dont start wars.  Its always a stupid thing to
 do.
  
 Andrew

Really?  Always?  If Britain and France had acted
against Germany in 1936 or 1937 Hitler would have
fallen.  Would that have been a stupid thing to do?

How about Kosovo?  NATO (meaning, chiefly the United
States and Britain) started a war there to stop
genocide.  It did so without UN approval, and over the
far _stronger_ objections of Russia and China.  In
fact under international law there's _no question_
that Kosovo was illegal, while there's at least a
plausible argument that Iraq was sanctioned by UN
Security Council resolutions.

How about Bosnia?  We started a war there as well.

In 1993, the Clinton Administration invaded Haiti to
put Jean-Bertrand Aristide in power.  How about that? 
Was that a stupid thing to do (arguably, yes, but why
aren't you upset about it?)

Would it have been a stupid thing to do to intervene
in Rwanda to stop the genocide?  That would have been
starting a war without UN sanction.  

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Freedom is not free
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com




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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread Ronn!Blankenship

At 09:40 AM 5/7/04, Andrew Paul wrote:
You dont start wars.  Its always a stupid thing to do.


How about joining in when one is already in progress, whether it has been 
declared or not?



-- Ronn!  :)


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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread Julia Thompson

Pardon me for jumping in on this, but Mr. Lee seems not to have had time
to read and post yet this morning

Gary Denton wrote:
 
 On Thu, 6 May 2004 20:33:41 -0700, Mike Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  By the way, Bush just used the word apologize
  but it still won't make you happy. What he did was gutsy and difficult and
  you don't care.
 
 Bush calls treatment of Iraqi prisoners 'abhorrent,' but doesn't apologize
 http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/Iraq/2004/05/05/448149-ap.html
 
 You have low standards for gutsy and difficult.

That article was written on Wednesday.  My understanding is that there
were more words spoken by Bush on Thursday, and my best guess is that
this is what Mr. Lee is referring to.  Mr. Denton's response is with an
article older than the event I believe Mr. Lee is referring to, which
doesn't support his point with people in possession of the more recent
information.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storycid=1803ncid=1803e=3u=/washpost/20040507/pl_washpost/a6866_2004may6
or
http://tinyurl.com/39bpt

Julia
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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread Mike Lee

When Gary's right, he's right (vis a vis Rumsfeld declaring that the Geneva
Convention doesn't apply to most of the assholes we have in jail in Iraq).

But Rumsfeld is right too, on the law. The Geneva Conventions do not apply
to everyone who picks a fight with us, especially if they violate the rules
defined in the conventions. You can argue that we should observe the Geneva
Conventions, regardless of whether we are legally bound to do so, but that's
different from arguing we're violating them. 

 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Denton
 Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 12:24 AM
 To: Killer Bs Discussion
 Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
 
 On Fri, 7 May 2004 02:20:34 -0500, Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote: but forgot to include the url
 
  Washington Post -
  
  The lawlessness began in January 2002 when Mr. Rumsfeld publicly 
  declared that hundreds of people detained by U.S. and 
 allied forces in 
  Afghanistan do not have any rights under the Geneva Conventions.
  That was not the case: At a minimum, all those arrested in the war 
  zone were entitled under the conventions to a formal hearing to 
  determine whether they were prisoners of war or unlawful combatants.
  No such hearings were held, but then Mr. Rumsfeld made 
 clear that U.S.
  observance of the convention was now optional. Prisoners, he said, 
  would be treated for the most part in a manner that is 
 reasonably 
  consistent with the conventions -- which, the secretary breezily 
  suggested, was outdated.
 
 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5840-2004May5.html
 

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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread Mike Lee

Gary, still in not-getting-it mode:

  If it's been a big talking point for you ll's for so long, 
 why shut up now?
  Where are the demonstrations organized by ANSWER in front of the UN 
  building? Where's Michael Whoore or John Kerry talking 
 about it every 
  damn day?
 
 Uh, because the problem which occurred in the past is being 
 investigated?  Why aren't billionaires for Bush leading 
 marches in front of the UN or going on quiche strikes?  Could 
 some have made money off of it?

Oh. I see. As a card-carrying member of the liberal conspiracy, you're fine
with the job the UN is doing on the investigation.

Now, you've just suggested that Bushies or Bushie cronies are on the list of
PPOS (Pricks Paid Off by Saddam). Who?

But you do raise an interesting point. Why hasn't Bush been going nuts on
the UN about this? Certainly, this is vindication for his ignoring the UN,
and demonstrates the unprincipled heart of darkness in the Security Council.
It's called not piling on. I think it's hilarious to hear all the rabid
Democrats bitching about the so-called Republican attack machine. I loved it
when Kerry got on GMA last week and said that it's wrong to go after him for
something that happened 30 years ago when they should be going after Bush
for something that happened 30 years ago. The Democratic rhetoric is 10.5 on
the hydrophobic scale, and they only stop foaming and snarling when they're
drawing a breath and sniveling about how everyone else is so mean to them.

 LOL, NK unlike Iraq actually has a half-decent or 
 quarter-decent army and really has WMDs.

Maybe. Time will tell if they're bluffing.

  Stalin and Mao don't count, I guess? At least the right 
 supports itty 
  bitty dictators, unlike you leftists who say that as soon as a 
  dictator kills 10 million he's no longer a cult but a church.
 
 Compared to the GOP that arranges for one of the most 
 powerful cult leaders, but a strong financial and media 
 supporter, to have himself crowned Messiah in the capital?

I don't quite get what your point is here. Somewhere in there, I supposed
you think that the GOP is worse than Stalin, but other than that, I'm
baffled.

  But you make an interesting, if deranged, point: what exactly is it 
  about what's going on that's unconstitutional and destroying the 
  separation of powers?
 
 This administration.
 
 They have made repeated prolonged assault on the separation 
 of powers, elevating executive power and classifying secret 
 public meetings with private citizens.  They have detained US 
 citizens without charges and without access to an attorney 
 and communication. They have expounded a right to collect any 
 and all information from any source about anyone in the 
 United States without revealing a reason.

And the Supreme Court has ruled against them when? And they have ignored the

Court after that ruling when? And the administration implemented the Patriot
Act despite Congress not passing it?

  By the way, Bush just used the word apologize
  but it still won't make you happy. What he did was gutsy 
 and difficult 
  and you don't care.
 
 Bush calls treatment of Iraqi prisoners 'abhorrent,' but 
 doesn't apologize 
 http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/Iraq/2004/05/05/448149-ap.html
 
 You have low standards for gutsy and difficult.

You like to move the goalposts a lot. 

Notice, that I was right. You don't care. You got what you want and you
still aren't happy. What are you, a 23 year old hot chick? 

 Maybe. Except for a couple public moments for a couple months after
 9/11 he has been pretty much a miserable, dangerous excuse 
 for a president.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I think you're a miserable, dangerous
excuse for a citizen.

 I agree he is a right wing moron.  I cannot see Kerry doing 
 anything as bad as this gang has managed to do and Kerry was 
 way down on my list of candidates.  

Well, that's what happens when you let Mr. Mole vote. Kerry has said he'll
kiss Eurabian/UN ass in the war on terror. He'll out-Chamberlain Spain.

Also, let's not forget, it wasn't just 30 years ago today that Sgt. Kerry
threw his medals away. Since then, he's been about the most consistently
leftist member of Congress. Even if he had reformed, I wouldn't care.
Really, there's something wrong with you if you buy into this shit even when
you're 20.


 Defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld has insisted from the 
 beginning, however, They will be handled not as prisoners of 
 war, because they're not, but as unlawful combatants. 
 Technically unlawful combatants do not have any rights under 
 the Geneva Convention.
 
 We have indicated that we do plan to, for the most part, 
 treat them in a manner that is reasonably consistent with the 
 Geneva conventions, to the extent they are appropriate.

I've already conceded your point in another post on this: Rumsfeld said it,
I believe it, and that settles it.

You might want to keep in mind that the Geneva Conventions prohibit things
like

Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread Julia Thompson

Mike Lee wrote:

 What our MPs did to those prisoners in Iraq sucked. Whether it technically
 violated the conventions, I don't know or care. I'm proud of how the Bushies
 have sucked it up and taken their lumps. No, they haven't been perfect. Bush
 didn't say the A-word timely. Rumsfeld was a little defensive the first time
 he was confronted about it. But what the Chappaquiddick Kid did today was
 beyond shameful, and Rumsfeld was spot on, only losing his temper at
 stupidity a couple of times today. If you think the dog and pony show that
 went on today is going to play well with the voters, please keep thinking
 that. As a great man once said, Bring it on!

I missed what happened today.  What did Kennedy do?

Julia

but I can tell you in irritating detail what he did one day in February
1980 way too close to rush hour
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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-07 Thread Dan Minette

- Original Message - 
From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

 Mike Lee wrote:

  What our MPs did to those prisoners in Iraq sucked. Whether it
technically
  violated the conventions, I don't know or care. I'm proud of how the
Bushies
  have sucked it up and taken their lumps. No, they haven't been perfect.
Bush
  didn't say the A-word timely. Rumsfeld was a little defensive the first
time
  he was confronted about it. But what the Chappaquiddick Kid did today
was
  beyond shameful, and Rumsfeld was spot on, only losing his temper at
  stupidity a couple of times today. If you think the dog and pony show
that
  went on today is going to play well with the voters, please keep
thinking
  that. As a great man once said, Bring it on!

 I missed what happened today.  What did Kennedy do?

Not really all that much...he speachifed through much of his
questioning...as did some of the Republicans.  There were a handful on both
sides who did this, but I thought that most actually asked questions...see
my list of questions.

There were a few critical things that came out today I think.  The most
important is that there is a pile of radioactive documentation on this
which will make what we've seen so far tame.  Rumsfeld seemed genuinely
shaken by this. One Republican Senator said the worst may be yet to come.
I cannot imagine the story dying while there are all sorts of known
unknowns about what happened.

A second critical thing is that, although the initial report details
tremendous problems with MI, the investigation into MI only started in the
last 10 days or so.  What were they thinking?

The third critical thing was the fact that the Red Cross report detailed at
least some of these abuses well before the Army report came out.  Anyone in
the chain of command who read that report should have had their hair on
fire. Why they didn't is very disturbing.

I'm starting to put together a tentative picture of what happened, and it
isn't pretty.  Everything indicates that this will be a summer long story,
coming out in dribs and drabs every few days.  As Dee Dee Myers said, the
best thing is for all the bad stuff to come out as soon as possible, so we
can start on the clean up, but I don't think it will happen.

Dan M.

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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-06 Thread Mike Lee

Gary Denton, putting me in Oh, Please! mode:

  Mike Lee
  Savior of the Masses writes:

Like all true Saviors, the masses loathe me. 

  You have a very good point here. Even a blind hog can find an acorn 
  now and then.
 
 Seems to be your version of a compliment.

If you can't tell a compliment from an insult, I hope you enjoy eating that
acorn.

  See, here's your problem: You link to and cling to anything 
 that makes 
  America look bad. You do your little happy dance whenever 
 we fuck up.
 
 I did not do a happy dance

Well, I guess it's hard to call it dancing, but it was pretty happy.

 thing, you seem to have gone of the talking point it was just 
 just the equivalent of hazing.

It really is the equivalent of hazing. As an Iraqi, being in American
custody is orders of magnitude better than being in the same jail before we
showed up.

It's annoying to have to make this point. The soldiers who did that, I want
them (metaphorically) crucified. But the hydrophobic hyperbole from the left
is forcing me to defend what happened. It's like when you have to defend
some weird pornographer on free speech grounds.

 The liberals and leftists you despise were pointing out the 
 corruption in the Food for Oil program since just after it 
 started.  For various reasons it is a big talking point for 
 conservatives now to use against those same liberals and leftists.  

If it's been a big talking point for you ll's for so long, why shut up now?
Where are the demonstrations organized by ANSWER in front of the UN
building? Where's Michael Whoore or John Kerry talking about it every damn
day? Ya'll went piranha on Marthat Stewart. Let's see you shred Kofi like he
deserves.

 North Korea has always been a bigger threat, a worse mass murderer. 

True enough, on the mass murderer side of it. No, they're not a bigger
threat. They think they're a bigger threat, but then again they're run by a
guy who thinks that haircut looks good.

 The Sudan, Columbia, Cuban suppression of dissent are all problems. 
 It is not the left in America who makes a habit of supporting 
 dictators until it becomes time to demonize and get rid of them.

Stalin and Mao don't count, I guess? At least the right supports itty bitty
dictators, unlike you leftists who say that as soon as a dictator kills 10
million he's no longer a cult but a church.

 Every American who commits a misdemeanor deserves the  death penalty.
 
 Point out where I have said that.  In fact, you have been 
 down on the American soldiers.  I am more disgusted by the 
 intel boys setting up these operations.  Note that the 
 section where the problems took place is run by the experts 
 from Gitmo.

Well, I hope you enjoyed that acorn, because obviously you're not going to
find another one soon.

First, I didn't say you said that. I interpreted you, as in interpretive
dunce. Second, fuck yeah, I'm down on those soldiers. The whining and we
weren't trained shit makes me want to make them get naked in a big pyramid
while I fire paintballs up their stupid asses. Of course, I would never do
that, because I have been properly trained.

Here's the point everyone must get: They were HAVING FUN in those pictures.
Those pictures were SOUVENIRS. 

Saying that they only did this because they weren't trained or because the
chain of command really wanted it is just plain stupid. That doesn't mean
the chain of command should get off scot free. Brigadier General Dumbitch,
whether she knew about this or not, deserve cashiering for her mewling
excuse making. But as for everyone else, let's see what comes out in the
wash.

 Your attention is drawn to where your hatred is, and that's  for 
 America.
 
 I despise the people who through racism, ignorance, jingoism 
 and and no understanding of American democracy, balance of 
 powers and the Constitution are shredding American values  
 and losing the respect of the world.

Ooh, yeah, we need to retain the respect of the French, the Belch and the
Germs. And the Islamic world, they're so into human rights too. Screw the
world. It's time they started feeling like they need to live up to our
standards, instead of expecting us to excuse theirs. 

But you make an interesting, if deranged, point: what exactly is it about
what's going on that's unconstitutional and destroying the separation of
powers?

 You, on the other 
 hand, are a 
  precancerous wart on the butt of the West.
 
 Continuing your witty and elevated discourse.

At least I'm accurate. You need biopsying.

 Bush had his typical pattern, nice words, no apology, just a 
 few bad apples, not much real action, patronizing tone to you Arabs.

First, I'm sick of you idiots whose only slogan has become Bush should
apologize for everything! By the way, Bush just used the word apologize
but it still won't make you happy. What he did was gutsy and difficult and
you don't care. No matter what he does, you'll find some way to bitch about
it. He went on Arab TV and did an interview and condemned

RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-06 Thread Mike Lee

Gary Denton, self-loathing American keeps on keeping on:

 Begin - Boston Globe:Civilians ID'd in abuse may face no charges

When they get away with it, call me. The pointing-with-alarm-possibility
that they might get away with it doesn't much make me care. Though I will
give you credit if the pointing makes it more likely they don't get away
with it.

 There was a systemic and ongoing problem with abuse and even 
 deaths of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan.  This was an 
 military intel and CIA operation whose operative and civilian 
 contractors gave guidance and procedures to follow.  There 
 had been three separate Army generals writing reports which 
 the pentagon had for months and refused to act on.  

You have a very good point here. Even a blind hog can find an acorn now and
then. 

It's looking pretty bad for the military right now, and I'm not expecting it
to look a lot better after the dust settles. Some of our soldiers and their
commanders have been behaving badly. It reflects badly on the rest of us. We
bear some responsibility for at least fixing it, and probably responsibility
for it happening.

 According to the Financial Times, It has become commonplace 
 for George W. Bush and Tony Blair to assert that the 
 insurgents are enemies of democracy, but it is the US that 
 most Iraqis see as anti-democratic. This is a disastrous 
 image for a nation that waged a war promising freedom and democracy.
 
 http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/Story
FT/FullStoryc=StoryFTcid=1083180270210p=1012571727088

See, here's your problem: You link to and cling to anything that makes
America look bad. You do your little happy dance whenever we fuck up. You
dont give a damn about the Saddam-sucking corruption of Kofi's UN boys. Or
any of the other million bigger atrocities committed by
anybody-but-Americans. Every American who commits a misdemeanor deserves the
death penalty. Your attention is drawn to where your hatred is, and that's
for America. I don't know what we did to piss you off and I don't care. 

George Bush may not be the brightest guy on the short bus, but Tony Blair is
the first hero of the 21st Century (or maybe the second--Rudy Guiliani is
certainly in the running). You, on the other hand, are a precancerous wart
on the butt of the West. 

 The NYT(earlier link) writes, the Pentagon, the State 
 Department and the White House had difficulty explaining why 
 they had not acted earlier and more aggressively to deal with 
 the abuse. One reason: No one wants to admit to having read 
 the report. According to the LA Times, the White House has 
 known about the investigation since December.

 The report is 53 pages. It is available online. What are they 
 waiting for?
 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/

Bush responded *appropriately*. John Kerry just lost the election today.

Welcome to 4 more years of people like me running the country.

Mike Lee
Savior of the Masses


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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-06 Thread Gary Denton

 Mike Lee
 Savior of the Masses writes:

 Gary Denton, self-loathing American keeps on keeping on:

  There was a systemic and ongoing problem with abuse and even
  deaths of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan.  This was an
  military intel and CIA operation whose operative and civilian
  contractors gave guidance and procedures to follow.  There
  had been three separate Army generals writing reports which
  the pentagon had for months and refused to act on.  
 
 You have a very good point here. Even a blind hog can find an acorn now and
 then.

Seems to be your version of a compliment.


 It's looking pretty bad for the military right now, and I'm not expecting it
 to look a lot better after the dust settles. Some of our soldiers and their
 commanders have been behaving badly. It reflects badly on the rest of us. We
 bear some responsibility for at least fixing it, and probably responsibility
 for it happening.
 
  According to the Financial Times, It has become commonplace
  for George W. Bush and Tony Blair to assert that the
  insurgents are enemies of democracy, but it is the US that
  most Iraqis see as anti-democratic. This is a disastrous
  image for a nation that waged a war promising freedom and democracy.
 
  http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/Story
 FT/FullStoryc=StoryFTcid=1083180270210p=1012571727088
 
 See, here's your problem: You link to and cling to anything that makes
 America look bad. You do your little happy dance whenever we fuck up. 

I did not do a happy dance, We agree this was a very bad thing, you
seem to have gone of the talking point it was just just the equivalent
of hazing.

You
 don't give a damn about the Saddam-sucking corruption of Kofi's UN boys. 

The liberals and leftists you despise were pointing out the corruption
in the Food for Oil program since just after it started.  For various
reasons it is a big talking point for conservatives now to use against
those same liberals and leftists.  

Or
 any of the other million bigger atrocities committed by
 anybody-but-Americans. 

North Korea has always been a bigger threat, a worse mass murderer. 
The Sudan, Columbia, Cuban suppression of dissent are all problems. 
It is not the left in America who makes a habit of supporting
dictators until it becomes time to demonize and get rid of them.

Every American who commits a misdemeanor deserves the
 death penalty. 

Point out where I have said that.  In fact, you have been down on the
American soldiers.  I am more disgusted by the intel boys setting up
these operations.  Note that the section where the problems took place
is run by the experts from Gitmo.


Your attention is drawn to where your hatred is, and that's
 for America. 

I despise the people who through racism, ignorance, jingoism and and
no understanding of American democracy, balance of powers and the
Constitution are shredding American values  and losing the respect of
the world.

I don't know what we did to piss you off and I don't care.

 George Bush may not be the brightest guy on the short bus, but Tony Blair is
 the first hero of the 21st Century (or maybe the second--Rudy Guiliani is
 certainly in the running). You, on the other hand, are a precancerous wart
 on the butt of the West.

Continuing your witty and elevated discourse.

  The NYT(earlier link) writes, the Pentagon, the State
  Department and the White House had difficulty explaining why
  they had not acted earlier and more aggressively to deal with
  the abuse. One reason: No one wants to admit to having read
  the report. According to the LA Times, the White House has
  known about the investigation since December.
 
  The report is 53 pages. It is available online. What are they
  waiting for?
  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/
 
 Bush responded *appropriately*. John Kerry just lost the election today.

Bush had his typical pattern, nice words, no apology, just a few bad
apples, not much real action, patronizing tone to you Arabs.

Bush is weak, not strong, and is surrounding by advisors he still
listens to that have batted 0.000.

 
 Welcome to 4 more years of people like me running the country.
 

I don't see Kerry losing the election today. 

Is this your fantasy now?  Not as graphic and sexual as the ones you
were spouting before.  

Saw an interesting video of Animal Farm the other day.  The Bush team
seems more like the pigs to me.

The team running this country decided not to be bound by international
law, like pigs changing the commandments in the dead of night.
Rumsfeld had previously said that the Geneva Conventions didn't apply
to his war.  I guess he didn't expect the photos of what that meant
disturbing Americans at dinner and upsetting his boss.

#1 on google for liberal news
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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-06 Thread Deborah Harrell

 Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  From: Robert Seeberger  

  Wl...if it was good for you, then
 I guess it's good enough for the world court.
 
 A whole new way to look at put a sock on it.

Meant to say 'thanks' for the clarification of what a
'sock puppet' is -- I was sorta right, but knowing is
always better than 'thinking so.'

Debbi
Even LambChops Is Less Annoying Maru  :/




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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-06 Thread Robert Seeberger

- Original Message - 
From: Deborah Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

  Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   From: Robert Seeberger

   Wl...if it was good for you, then
  I guess it's good enough for the world court.

  A whole new way to look at put a sock on it.

 Meant to say 'thanks' for the clarification of what a
 'sock puppet' is -- I was sorta right, but knowing is
 always better than 'thinking so.'

Reading this response created an instant visual image:

A penis in a ski mask.

Further contemplation decided that this is an apt description of an
internet sock puppet.

xponent
Derogatory Remarks Included Maru
rob

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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

Julia, the voice of bloody reason:

 It occurred to me that perhaps the thing to do is to identify 
 all the people who participated in the torture-for-amusement, 
 and turn them over to the Iraqi people.
 
 Some sort of justice (or at least poetic justice) would be 
 served, and it would be a hell of a deterrent against anyone 
 else doing anything remotely like it for a good, long time.

You sound like one of the Iraqi people. The more bloody-minded, primitive
honor-killing sort.

You want to lob a rock at Lynndie from West Virginnie? Cast the first stone
or shut up.

I've been told you're the heart of the list, a really sweet girl, and beyond
criticism.

In this post you engaged in a bloody hate fantasy.

I'm in no mood right now to say something funny or provocative.


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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

Guatam, justifiably pissed:

 That aside, I have to say that I find myself virtually 
 incapable of thinking about this rationally.  I am 
 _quivering_ with rage about this.  This is personal to me.  I 
 volunteered to go there almost a year ago. 
 _Two weeks ago_ they called me to say that my security 
 clearance was being processed and that a final offer might be 
 imminent.  Just by _volunteering_ I probably did permanent 
 damage to my career at McKinsey, which was not a small thing 
 to give up.  These fucking idiots have permanently stained 
 the effort of every one of my friends over there, of every 
 _person_ working there in both the army and the civilian 
 service.  If the army decided to shoot them in the main 
 street of _Baghdad_ I wouldn't be upset.

I had a conversation with a friend of mine tonight who wanted all them
executed too. I was the voice of reason about this (surprise! Surprise!
Sergeant Carter!). 

The effect of what these young idiots did is huge. If it were just about
them, I wouldn't punish them too harshly. They're already shocked and awed
enough that they won't do crap like this again. But too bad for their lives.
They should go to jail. We should use them to get the point through to their
peers not to act like this. They read the rules, and we seldom enforce them
this harshly, and they really probably don't deserve it, but too bad. Even
if the rot went all the way up the chain of command, and I wouldn't be
surprised if it did, they were dumb enough to get caught, and can be an
object lesson.


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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

Guatam, with spot-on analysis, as usual, until he loses it with a single
word:

 would be too stupid for words). 
 Some high-value prisoners were probably being aggressively 
 interrogated.  That ethos spread through much of the prison.  
 The particular guards involved with this were a bunch of 
 fuck-ups.  They picked up that ethos, had no adult 
 supervision (because, at least in part and from my experience 
 with them, American officers tend to have a blind spot about 
 things like this, in part because of their excellent 
 historical record and in part because they're used to dealing 
 with highly competent regulars, not idiots like these clowns, 
 and those regulars would - I'm guessing - never do anything 
 so unimaginably stupid and vile) and normal group dynamic 
 behaviors - ones that we see in experimental psychology all 
 the time - promptly asserted themselves, until you got the 
 atrocity that we saw here.

It wasn't an atrocity. It was Boys and Girls Behaving Badly.

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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

Oh, and Gary forgot to mention:

The Iraqi's name was Tawanna Brawley. 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Denton
 Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 6:28 PM
 To: Killer Bs Discussion
 Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

 Here is the url - http://www.sundayherald.com/41693

 Don't just blame untrained unsupervised Americans either:

 The British pictures show a hooded Iraqi aged between 18-20 
 on the floor of a military truck being brutalised. According 
 to two squaddies who took part in the torture, but later blew 
 the whistle, the Iraqi's ordeal lasted eight hours and he was 
 left with a broken jaw and missing teeth. He was bleeding and 
 vomited when his captors threw him out of a speeding truck. 
 No-one knows if he lived or died.

 One of the British soldiers said: Basically this guy was 
 dying as he couldn't take any more. An officer came down. It 
 was 'Get rid of him - I haven't seen him'. The other 
 whistle-blower said he had witnessed a prisoner being beaten 
 senseless by troops. You could hear your mate's boots 
 hitting this lad's spine ... One of the lads broke his wrist 
 off a prisoner's head. Another nearly broke his foot kicking him.

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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

Gary, in ugly self-loathing American mode:

 So we aren't like Saddam because our guys are wimps and not 
 bloody enough?

It amazes me what you liberals can say and not think you need to wipe your
mouths with toilet paper.

You really think the only reason that those soldiers didn't rape  mutilate
instead of haze  humiliate is they were too chicken? How stupid can you be?
That's not a rhetorical question, I want to find out if you know.

None of this takes away from how serious I think this is. Every single one
of those soldiers who went Animal House should do hard time, because that's
about the only way to send a message to other testosterone-crazed 20 year
olds of both sexes that they better knock it off.

In terms of ultimate moral seriousness, I place this about 3 points higher
than the antics of Jenna Bush. In terms of PR, it's a complete disaster.
Clearly, if we're going to send 20 year olds over there, we need to do a
better job of teaching them table manners.

Now, one thing that's starting to bother me, looking at the pictures on the
web and listening to the false-ringing bullshit from the military, is the
possibility that what these kids did is tip of the iceberg. What if these
kids (and they are kids) did this because everyone else was doing it, and
they just were the dumbest, not the most brutal? I'm not at all convinced
right now that this behavior is atypical of how we're treating Iraqi
prisoners. And if I don't get convinced of the atypicality pretty soon, I
want to see people up the chain of command in serious trouble, including
jail time. Starting with Brigadier General Dumbitch Waa Waa or whatever her
name is.

 I must look up funny.

Well, don't look up too long, or you'll drown if it rains.

Mike Lee
Islamic Moderate

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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

Gary Denton, credulous to the last drop:

 I should add that one of the mercenaries conducting the 
 interrogations apparently raped one of the male prisoners.  
 Is that more like Saddam for you Mike?

Prove it and I'll condemn it. Was it a West Virginia girl? If so, I'm not
surprised. You know how those West Virginia girls are. Did she use a strap
on? Did she whittle it while sitting on her front porch playing the banjo?

 Also, because he was not a soldier but a contractor he isn't 
 facing charges.  We don't want to put him in an Iraqi prison, 
 no crime has been committed in the US, and the US doesn't 
 recognize the World Court.

Where do you get this shit? Seriously, I want to know.

And fuck the World Court with Lynndie's strapon, by the way.

 The pictures of US soldiers torturing their captives have the 
 added horror of sexual abuse. In five of the 14 images that 
 the Sunday Herald has seen, a female soldier - identified as 
 Lynndie England, a 21-year-old from a West Virginia trailer 
 park - is playing up to the camera while her captives are 
 tortured. In one picture, she's smiling and giving the 
 thumbs-up. Her hand rests on the buttocks of a naked and 
 hooded Iraqi who has been forced to sit on the shoulders of 
 another Iraqi prisoner.

Point with alarm! Point with alarm!

I'm not horrified. I'm annoyed. Somehow, I think Iraqis accustomed to living
under the real horrors of Saddam will put into context the horrors of being
sexually harassed by West Virginia trailer trash. 
 
 In another, she is sprawled laughing over a pyramid of naked 
 Iraqis. A male colleague stands behind her grinning. Later, 
 she's got a cigarette clenched between grinning lips and is 
 pointing at the genitals of a line of naked, hooded Iraqis. A 
 third snap shows her embracing a colleague as a naked Iraqi 
 lies before them.

Clearly, Private Lynndie needs sensitivity training. 

 on to each other's backs. One dreadful picture features 
 nothing but the bloated face of an Iraqi who has been beaten 
 to death. His body is wrapped in plastic.

Prove it. Seriously. Dead Iraqis (and dead anybodys) look like hell after
they die. If the American military is in any widespread way tacitly or
otherwise condoning and encouraging such abuses, I'll go maddog on them
instead of just on you stupid liberals. The last thing the last defenders of
Western civilization need to do is to give free ammunition to you liberal
slackers. 

 Other pictures, which the world has not seen, but which are 
 in the hands of the US military, include shots of a dog 
 attacking a prisoner.
 An accused soldier says dogs are used for intimidation factors.

Pictures, not rumours. Please. Thank you. 
 
 There are also pictures of an apparent male rape. An Iraqi 
 PoW claims that a civilian translator, hired to work in the 
 prison, raped a male juvenile prisoner. He said: They 
 covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming ... 
 and the female soldier was taking pictures.

Substantiate or retract. If you don't do either, you are on the other side.

I'm giving you every chance to ram my words down my throat, like an American
solder ramming a toilet plunger up an Iraqi prisoner's ass. If you can prove
it, I'll turn right around and hold Bush to account like I hold you
anti-Western idiots to account. No, it won't make you right, and it won't
make you smart, but at least it will take my attention off you for a while,
and isn't that worth something?

Mike Lee
Easter Bunny

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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture


- Original Message - 
From: Mike Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Killer Bs Discussion' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 2:10 AM
Subject: RE: Disturbing evidence of torture



 
 The effect of what these young idiots did is huge. 

How old are you to call them all young?  

Dan M. 


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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

On Wed, 5 May 2004 00:10:29 -0700, Mike Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Gary Denton, credulous to the last drop:

sticks and stones

 
  I should add that one of the mercenaries conducting the
  interrogations apparently raped one of the male prisoners.
  Is that more like Saddam for you Mike?
 
 Prove it and I'll condemn it. Was it a West Virginia girl? If so, I'm not
 surprised. You know how those West Virginia girls are. Did she use a strap
 on? Did she whittle it while sitting on her front porch playing the banjo?

That was not me, that was the newspaper.

  Also, because he was not a soldier but a contractor he isn't
  facing charges.  We don't want to put him in an Iraqi prison,
  no crime has been committed in the US, and the US doesn't
  recognize the World Court.
 
 Where do you get this shit? Seriously, I want to know.

Why don't you read this first sentence:

No civilians, however, are facing charges as military law does not
apply to them. Colonel Jill Morgenthaler, from CentCom, said that one
civilian contractor was accused along with six soldiers of mistreating
prisoners. However, it was left to the contractor to deal with him.

http://www.sundayherald.com/41693

i could give you more.

 
 And fuck the World Court with Lynndie's strapon, by the way.

My, my, tsk, rsk.

 
  The pictures of US soldiers torturing their captives have the
  added horror of sexual abuse. In five of the 14 images that
  the Sunday Herald has seen, a female soldier - identified as
  Lynndie England, a 21-year-old from a West Virginia trailer
  park - is playing up to the camera while her captives are
  tortured. In one picture, she's smiling and giving the
  thumbs-up. Her hand rests on the buttocks of a naked and
  hooded Iraqi who has been forced to sit on the shoulders of
  another Iraqi prisoner.
 
 Point with alarm! Point with alarm!
 
 I'm not horrified. I'm annoyed. Somehow, I think Iraqis accustomed to living
 under the real horrors of Saddam will put into context the horrors of being
 sexually harassed by West Virginia trailer trash.
 
  In another, she is sprawled laughing over a pyramid of naked
  Iraqis. A male colleague stands behind her grinning. Later,
  she's got a cigarette clenched between grinning lips and is
  pointing at the genitals of a line of naked, hooded Iraqis. A
  third snap shows her embracing a colleague as a naked Iraqi
  lies before them.
 
 Clearly, Private Lynndie needs sensitivity training.
 
  on to each other's backs. One dreadful picture features
  nothing but the bloated face of an Iraqi who has been beaten
  to death. His body is wrapped in plastic.

 Prove it. Seriously. Dead Iraqis (and dead anybodys) look like hell after
 they die. If the American military is in any widespread way tacitly or
 otherwise condoning and encouraging such abuses, I'll go maddog on them
 instead of just on you stupid liberals. The last thing the last defenders of
 Western civilization need to do is to give free ammunition to you liberal
 slackers.

I present you with the newspaper article and you want me to prove it. 
OK, how many more articles do you want?

 
  Other pictures, which the world has not seen, but which are
  in the hands of the US military, include shots of a dog
  attacking a prisoner.
  An accused soldier says dogs are used for intimidation factors.
 
 Pictures, not rumours. Please. Thank you.
 
  There are also pictures of an apparent male rape. An Iraqi
  PoW claims that a civilian translator, hired to work in the
  prison, raped a male juvenile prisoner. He said: They
  covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming ...
  and the female soldier was taking pictures.
 
 Substantiate or retract. If you don't do either, you are on the other side.

Again, I am presenting you with a newspaper article read by over
hundreds of thousands of people and you want me to prove it,   Losing
your grip a little?

 
 I'm giving you every chance to ram my words down my throat, like an American
 solder ramming a toilet plunger up an Iraqi prisoner's ass. 

You seem to lose control easy.  Are you are medication for it?  Or are
these your fantasies?

If you can prove
 it, I'll turn right around and hold Bush to account like I hold you
 anti-Western idiots to account. 

I really doubt that.


No, it won't make you right, and it won't
 make you smart, but at least it will take my attention off you for a while,
 and isn't that worth something?

NO

 
 Mike Lee
 Easter Bunny

hugs and kisses
 
#1 on google for liberal news
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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

- Original Message - 
From: Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

.

 I present you with the newspaper article and you want me to prove it.
 OK, how many more articles do you want?

It may be worth mentioning that the source of this is an official report
written by a major general. I'm sure M. Lee doesn't hold these reports in
as high a regard as his own intuition, but I would guess that he is unique
in this.

Dan M.

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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-05 Thread Julia Thompson

Mike Lee wrote:
 
 Julia, the voice of bloody reason:
 
  It occurred to me that perhaps the thing to do is to identify
  all the people who participated in the torture-for-amusement,
  and turn them over to the Iraqi people.
 
  Some sort of justice (or at least poetic justice) would be
  served, and it would be a hell of a deterrent against anyone
  else doing anything remotely like it for a good, long time.
 
 You sound like one of the Iraqi people. The more bloody-minded, primitive
 honor-killing sort.
 
 You want to lob a rock at Lynndie from West Virginnie? Cast the first stone
 or shut up.

I wasn't harmed in the way the prisoners were harmed.  I don't think
justice would be served by my stoning someone, but perhaps letting the
people who were harmed do the stoning would.  Of course, that's
incredibly Not Charitable.

Yes, it's horrible.  Horrible things cross my mind at times.  I censor
them frequently.  This time I didn't.

What I really want is for it not to happen again, and it occurred to me
that that might be a deterrent.  Of course, the death penalty seems not
to be a deterrent in a number of crimes, so there's a decent chance it
wouldn't work.

Your suggestion of hard prison time made in another post is probably the
best solution.  Leavenworth?

Julia
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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

On Wed, 5 May 2004 00:10:29 -0700, Mike Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gary Denton, credulous to the last drop:

Also, because he was not a soldier but a contractor he isn't
facing charges. We don't want to put him in an Iraqi prison,
no crime has been committed in the US, and the US doesn't
recognize the World Court.

Where do you get this shit? Seriously, I want to know.

And fuck the World Court with Lynndie's strapon, by the way.

I should add to my previous and inform the incredulous Mike Lee this
is now making it's way to mainstream US press.

Begin - Boston Globe:Civilians ID'd in abuse may face no charges

A legal loophole could allow four American civilian contractors
allegedly involved in the abuse of Iraqi prisoners to escape
punishment, US military officials and specialists said yesterday...

US commanders in Iraq announced that seven military supervisors have
received administrative reprimands over the alleged abuse of the
detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. Lieutenant General
Ricardo Sanchez, commander of US forces in Iraq, said the
investigation into the supervisors -- officers and non-commissioned
officers -- was complete and they would not face further proceedings.
...
But the four civilian workers identified in an internal army report
for their involvement in the physical and sexual mistreatment of the
prisoners -- including the alleged rape of one detainee -- cannot be
punished under military law, and it is unclear whether they will face
any charges under either US or Iraqi laws.

end Boston Globe

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/05/04/civilians_idd_in_abuse_may_face_no_charges?mode=PF

If Nixon's PR guy, who runs FOXNEWS with memos containing the talking
points for the day, permits it, you might eventually hear this stuff
Mike.

I also dislike the blame you and the others are placing on these poor
misguided soldiers in the Army on this. The key word here is
misguided.

There was a systemic and ongoing problem with abuse and even deaths of
prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan. This was an military intel and CIA
operation whose operative and civilian contractors gave guidance and
procedures to follow. There had been three separate Army generals
writing reports which the pentagon had for months and refused to act
on.

The NYT reports, In the last 16 months, the Army has conducted more
than 30 criminal investigations into misconduct by American captors in
Iraq and Afghanistan, including 10 cases of suspicious death, 10 cases
of abuse, and two deaths already determined to have been criminal
homicides, the Army's vice chief of staff said Tuesday.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/international/middleeast/05ABUS.html

The U.S.-appointed Human Rights Minister in Baghdad, Abdul-Basat
al-Turki, said yesterday he had resigned to protest abuses by
American guards. He claims he is stepping down not only because I
believe that the use of violence is a violation of human rights but
also because these methods in the prisons means that the violations
are a common act.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.prisoners05may05,0,7635909.story

According to the Financial Times, It has become commonplace for
George W. Bush and Tony Blair to assert that the insurgents are
enemies of democracy, but it is the US that most Iraqis see as
anti-democratic. This is a disastrous image for a nation that waged a
war promising freedom and democracy.

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStoryc=StoryFTcid=1083180270210p=1012571727088

The NYT(earlier link) writes, the Pentagon, the State Department and
the White House had difficulty explaining why they had not acted
earlier and more aggressively to deal with the abuse. One reason: No
one wants to admit to having read the report. According to the LA
Times, the White House has known about the investigation since
December.

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/showcase/la-fg-blame5may05.story

The report was completed in February. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs
of Staff Gen. Richard B. Myers called Dan Rather at CBS three weeks
before the story ran and asked the network to hold it; this past
Sunday, questioned on Face the Nation, Myers admitted he still hadn't
read the report himself.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1083678825499_8/?hub=Entertainment

I believe I also saw three week delay admission on Charlie Rose and Nightline.

Two days after Myers's admission, President Bush still hadn't read the
report and his press secretary attempted to shield him, claiming the
president only become aware of the photographs and the Pentagon's
main internal report about the incidents from news reports last week.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/international/middleeast/05COMM.html

And Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, commenting on the report for
the first time yesterday, said while he'd seen a summary and
recommendations from the investigation, he hadn't read the full

Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

- Original Message - 
From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

 --- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I'm a bit disturbed that Rumsfeld, just now, appears
  to have been shocked
  as I have, and as you haven't.  My shock was
  partially based on the
  assumption that the US occupation force was
  competent enough to provide as
  good a prison environment as possible.  I expected
  there to be good
  supervision, and for treatment to be
  exemplary...mainly because it is very
  much in our self interest to do so.

 Well, my lack of shock was more based on a (very)
 cynical opinion of how organizations react under
 stress, and an equally low opinion of how bad prison
 conditions are in the US.  From what I could see, it
 looked like the Stanford Prison Experiment run in real
 life - but given what happened in that experiment,
 nothing we saw was all _that_ suprising.

But, that's what standard procedures and planning are for.  I've quickly
read the Army report, and it appears that there was a massive breakdown on
a number of levels that fostered this.

  She is not some private, she is a general.

 To be fair, she also has a very high incentive to
 claim that she was unable to succeed in her position,
 whether or not that was the case.

I realize that; my point is either way, it looks very bad.  If she was able
to suceed in her position, then to have a general whine like this is
unacceptable.  Someone who does this poorly when given all the needed
resources to do a good job should never have been put in that position.

But, the Army report indicates to me that things were just slapped
together.  MPs who were use to traffic control and who were told they'd
come home quickly were pressed into long term prison duty, with virtually
no training.  They were severly understaffed for a normal prison
population...and the actual population was twice capacity.  Further, the
prison was 60% full of people who should have been released.  They couldn't
even figure out who was there.

I certainly do not absolve her of responsibility.  While I think she was
not given the resources to do the job properly, she still had the resources
to do the job far better than she did.  Issuing orders to fix problems and
not following up to see if the orders were carried out is inexcusable.  Not
instituting real training is inexcusable.  Not setting up a means of
tracking prisoners is inexcusable.

My arguement is that all the blame cannot be placed on her and her
subordinates.  Management by wishful thinking and denial also seems to be
involved.

 At any rate, in a purely analytical sense, here's my
 guess as to what happened (assuming that this wasn't
 ordered by higher-ups, which strikes me as unlikely
 just because that would be too stupid for words).
 Some high-value prisoners were probably being
 aggressively interrogated.  That ethos spread through
 much of the prison.  The particular guards involved
 with this were a bunch of fuck-ups.  They picked up
 that ethos, had no adult supervision (because, at
 least in part and from my experience with them,
 American officers tend to have a blind spot about
 things like this, in part because of their excellent
 historical record and in part because they're used to
 dealing with highly competent regulars, not idiots
 like these clowns, and those regulars would - I'm
 guessing - never do anything so unimaginably stupid
 and vile) and normal group dynamic behaviors - ones
 that we see in experimental psychology all the time -
 promptly asserted themselves, until you got the
 atrocity that we saw here.

My take is a bit different from that.  From what I've gathered, at least
one picture shows additional people being involved.  Civilians contractors
were freelancing in the prision.  That lack of control in the prison would
all G. Gordon Liddy types to strut their stuff and give wink and nod orders
to the MPs.  Talking about making sure that prisoner has a hard night
tonight is an example of this.

In addition, public comments about not having to follow the Geneva
convention, the use of other countries to do dirty work for the US with
terrorists, as well as agreesive interrogations may have contributed to a
change in the climate.  It would be easy for freelancers who need to
produce results to justify their consulting fees to think that 9-11
produced a whole new world.

It is also possible that more senior officers were looking the other way
when boundaries were pushed.  Not as far as shown in the pictures, mind
you, but enough to promote the idea if you get results, I won't ask how
you got them.

Finally, the folks involved did have adult supervision.  We are not talking
about a bunch of 19 year olds here. I couldn't get every age, but the NCO
was 37.

Dan M.

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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture


- Original Message - 
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture


  That lack of control in the prison would
 all G. Gordon Liddy types to strut their stuff and give wink and nod
orders

allow


 Dan M.


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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

On Wed, 5 May 2004 15:34:34 -0500, Dan Minette
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   That lack of control in the prison would
  all G. Gordon Liddy types to strut their stuff and give wink and nod
 orders
 
 allow

Absolutely, and you are overlooking that the general wasn';t even
allowed in that part of the prison.  This is the ultramacho CIA types
that have been active since the 50's being given free access to run
wild and have the Army in a support rule and the Army getting the
blame if anything leaks out.

#1 on google for liberal news
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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

- Original Message - 
From: Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

 On Wed, 5 May 2004 15:34:34 -0500, Dan Minette
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That lack of control in the prison would
   all G. Gordon Liddy types to strut their stuff and give wink and nod
  orders

  allow

 Absolutely, and you are overlooking that the general wasn';t even
 allowed in that part of the prison.  This is the ultramacho CIA types
 that have been active since the 50's being given free access to run
 wild and have the Army in a support rule and the Army getting the
 blame if anything leaks out.

I read the report that is the source of most information and didn't see any
indication that she wasn't allowed in that part of the prison.  I certainly
got the impression that she didn't practice management by walking around,
but nothing, including her statements, that indicated that she would have
been stopped from entering. That she wasn't in charge, yes; but not that
she wasn't allowed in.

Dan M.

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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

On Wed, 5 May 2004 16:58:23 -0500, Dan Minette
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I read the report that is the source of most information and didn't see any
indication that she wasn't allowed in that part of the prison. I certainly
got the impression that she didn't practice management by walking around,
but nothing, including her statements, that indicated that she would have
been stopped from entering. That she wasn't in charge, yes; but not that
she wasn't allowed in.

I can't find that exact wording right now. I was sure that was the
impression she conveyed when I saw her.on Nightline I believe. Here
is another TV appearance where she says that section was under the
control of military intelligence commanders.

The wording from the Baltimore Sun is:

In an interview on ABC's Good Morning America, Karpinski, a business
consultant when not in uniform, said yesterday that she had no
knowledge of the abuses and would have reacted very quickly if she
had. She said the sections of Abu Ghraib where the abuses took place,
cellblocks 1A and 1B, were under the control of military intelligence
commanders, who encouraged military police to soften up the detainees
for interrogations.

It was not an MP, military police, leadership issue, Karpinski said.
This was an interrogation and isolation procedure issue, and that was
run and orchestrated by a separate command from the military police
brigade.

She told Army investigators that the military intelligence officers
had given her troops 'ideas that led to the detainee abuse,
according to Taguba.

A very troubling report:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-te.leadership04may04,0,4756527.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

Here is another report that that section discouraged her from
entering and tried to cover-up and exclude conditions from the Red
Cross. Maybe they should have asked Saddam for tips.

The former head of US military prisons in Iraq, Brigadier General
Janis Karpinski, who was relieved of her command earlier this year,
yesterday alleged that military intelligence officers discouraged her
from entering the cell block at Abu Ghraib where they interrogated
prisoners. They also went to great lengths to try to exclude the
International Red Cross from their prison wing.

A US military investigation, carried out by Major General Antonio
Taguba, uncovered evidence of war crimes against the inmates,
including: breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid
on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees
with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape;
sodomising a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

The New Yorker magazine, which obtained a complete copy of the report,
observed: General Taguba saved his harshest words for the military
intelligence officers and private contractors.

The prison, and that particular cell block where the events took
place, were under the control of the MI [military intelligence]
command, she said.

She conceded that she probably should have been more aggressive
about visiting the cell block, particularly after military
intelligence officers went to great lengths to try to exclude the
ICRC (International Committee for the Red Cross) from access to that
interrogation wing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1208332,00.html

Let's get someone else as well as the general talking about that section:

A soldier accused of abusing prisoners at the Abu Ghraib facility
wrote to his family last December that military intelligence officers
encouraged the mistreatment, according to correspondence provided by
the soldier's family.

We have had a very high rate with our style of getting them to
break, the soldier, Staff Sgt. Ivan L. Chip Frederick II, wrote in
a Dec. 18 e-mail released by Frederick's uncle. They usually end up
breaking within hours.

Frederick also wrote that he questioned some of the abuses. I
questioned this and the answer I got was: This is how military
intelligence wants it done, he wrote.

The Army Reserve commander who oversaw the prison said that military
intelligence, rather than the military police, dictated the treatment
of prisoners at Abu Ghraib. The prison, and that particular cellblock
where the events took place, were under the control of the MI
command, Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski said in a telephone interview
Saturday night from her home in Hilton Head, S.C.

Karpinski, who commanded the 800th Military Police Brigade, also
described a high-pressure atmosphere that prized successful
interrogations. A month before the alleged abuses occurred, she said,
a team of military intelligence officers from the detention facility
at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, came to Abu Ghraib last year. Their main and
specific mission was to get the interrogators -- give them new
techniques to get more information from detainees, she said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59750-2004May1.html

For those like Mike Lee saying this was just

Re: Disturbing evidence of torture


- Original Message - 
From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture


 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Mike Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'Killer Bs Discussion' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 2:10 AM
 Subject: RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
 
 
 
  And fuck the World Court with Lynndie's strapon, by the way.
 
 Wl...if it was good for you, then I guess it's good
 enough for the world court.

A whole new way to look at put a sock on it.

Dan M. 


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RE: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-05 Thread Ronn!Blankenship

At 02:10 AM 5/5/04, Mike Lee wrote:
Gary Denton, credulous to the last drop:
 I should add that one of the mercenaries conducting the
 interrogations apparently raped one of the male prisoners.
 Is that more like Saddam for you Mike?
Prove it and I'll condemn it. Was it a West Virginia girl? If so, I'm not
surprised. You know how those West Virginia girls are. Did she use a strap
on? Did she whittle it while sitting on her front porch playing the banjo?

I doubt it, unless she has at least twice the usual number of arms.
Forewarned Is Four-Armed Maru
-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-04 Thread Dan Minette

- Original Message - 
From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

 But that's neither here nor there.  It's not shocking
 or surprising but it is, of course, tragic.

I'm a bit disturbed that Rumsfeld, just now, appears to have been shocked
as I have, and as you haven't.  My shock was partially based on the
assumption that the US occupation force was competent enough to provide as
good a prison environment as possible.  I expected there to be good
supervision, and for treatment to be exemplary...mainly because it is very
much in our self interest to do so.

From what I am reading, and from the quotes I've seen from those involved,
the supervision at the prison was woefully inadaquate.  The comments by the
general who was in charge of the prison were particularly disturbing.  She
claimed to have not  been in control of that part of the prison.  She said
her superiors were at least partially to blame for what happened.

She is not some private, she is a general.  From the reports I've read, at
least that part of the prison was seriously out of control.  If one just
considers her culpability, it seems that she was oblidged to raise a
tremendous stink if she was not allowed to do her job properly. (if she is
simply lying about her resources then she is even more culpable.)  No
matter what, her superiors do bear responsability for the apparent massive
breakdown of discipline at the prison.

The nature of the photos mesh with other reports on the lack of control in
the prisons.  I cannot imagine posing for happy face photos of abuse when
one knows that any abuse would be severely punished.  Beatings in the dark,
yes, but not voluntary documentation.  This is also consistant with other
reports.

For example from

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/04/iraq.abuse.main/index.html

quote
According to Taguba, the alleged abuse was systemic, intentional and
perpetrated by members of the military police guard force, with the
apparent purpose being to set physical and mental conditions for the
favorable interrogation of witnesses.
end quote

 Americans who
 commit atrocities are, and should be, punished for
 their crimes.  There is _nothing_ more important
 facing the American military's justice system right now.

I agree with that.  I know that you are strongly pro-military, and that
part of being pro-military is that you hold the military to high standards.

One of the things that bothers me is that the senior leadership in Defense
should have known about the high risk of prisoner abuse and should have
taken significant steps to minimize the possibility.  If the reports of
massive understaffing and no real supervision of a mix of MPs, intellegence
officers of the armed forces, and private contractors are accurate, the
exact opposite happened.  Even I, who argued against the war in Iraq due to
lack of proper preparation for the aftermath though that we would be far
better prepared than this.

Finally, one of the reports that bothered me was one that stated that,
probably, half the people in prison posed no risk.  We were keeping them
there mostly becasue the record keeping was so bad.  (IIRC, an authoritive
source was quoted...I can go back and look if need be.).  If that's true,
then we really planned poorly for this.

Dan M.

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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-04 Thread Gautam Mukunda

--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm a bit disturbed that Rumsfeld, just now, appears
 to have been shocked
 as I have, and as you haven't.  My shock was
 partially based on the
 assumption that the US occupation force was
 competent enough to provide as
 good a prison environment as possible.  I expected
 there to be good
 supervision, and for treatment to be
 exemplary...mainly because it is very
 much in our self interest to do so.

Well, my lack of shock was more based on a (very)
cynical opinion of how organizations react under
stress, and an equally low opinion of how bad prison
conditions are in the US.  From what I could see, it
looked like the Stanford Prison Experiment run in real
life - but given what happened in that experiment,
nothing we saw was all _that_ suprising.  

 She is not some private, she is a general.  

To be fair, she also has a very high incentive to
claim that she was unable to succeed in her position,
whether or not that was the case.

  Americans who
  commit atrocities are, and should be, punished for
  their crimes.  There is _nothing_ more important
  facing the American military's justice system
  right now.
 
 I agree with that.  I know that you are strongly
 pro-military, and that
 part of being pro-military is that you hold the
 military to high standards.
 
 One of the things that bothers me is that the senior
 leadership in Defense
 should have known about the high risk of prisoner
 abuse and should have
 taken significant steps to minimize the possibility.

Yes.  Clearly this was a massive screw-up.  My guess
is that this is one of the things that people just
don't think about.  Historically the human rights
record of American soldiers is exemplary - for
example, the reported incidents of problems caused by
American soldiers in Somalia versus those of _other
NATO units_ was orders of magnitude lower.  Similarly
in other units (this from a discussion with Charlie
Moskos of Northwestern).  There was, for example, no
equivalent of the incredible brutality shown by an
elite Canadian paratrooper regiment (IIRC).  A lot of
people (myself included) credited this to the higher
rate of integration of women into the American
military, on the theory that men tend to act more
decently in front of women and that women are less
likely to suffer from testosterone poisoning.  One of
the most shocking things here was seeing _women_
involved in the incidents.  Apparently we were all
wrong.

At any rate, in a purely analytical sense, here's my
guess as to what happened (assuming that this wasn't
ordered by higher-ups, which strikes me as unlikely
just because that would be too stupid for words). 
Some high-value prisoners were probably being
aggressively interrogated.  That ethos spread through
much of the prison.  The particular guards involved
with this were a bunch of fuck-ups.  They picked up
that ethos, had no adult supervision (because, at
least in part and from my experience with them,
American officers tend to have a blind spot about
things like this, in part because of their excellent
historical record and in part because they're used to
dealing with highly competent regulars, not idiots
like these clowns, and those regulars would - I'm
guessing - never do anything so unimaginably stupid
and vile) and normal group dynamic behaviors - ones
that we see in experimental psychology all the time -
promptly asserted themselves, until you got the
atrocity that we saw here.

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Freedom is not free
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com




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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-04 Thread Robert Seeberger

- Original Message - 
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

 I'm a bit disturbed that Rumsfeld, just now, appears to have been
shocked
 as I have, and as you haven't.  My shock was partially based on the
 assumption that the US occupation force was competent enough to
provide as
 good a prison environment as possible.  I expected there to be good
 supervision, and for treatment to be exemplary...mainly because it
is very
 much in our self interest to do so.

 From what I am reading, and from the quotes I've seen from those
involved,
 the supervision at the prison was woefully inadaquate.  The comments
by the
 general who was in charge of the prison were particularly
disturbing.  She
 claimed to have not  been in control of that part of the prison.
She said
 her superiors were at least partially to blame for what happened.

It appears that this didn't start in the prison and that the
tomfoolery began over a year ago.

http://www.myjokemail.com/content/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=186

(This is a humor website, but what's shown is not so funny considering
recent events and allegations.)

xponent
We Need A Professional Army Maru
rob

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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-04 Thread Damon Agretto

A lot of
 people (myself included) credited this to the higher
 rate of integration of women into the American
 military, on the theory that men tend to act more
 decently in front of women and that women are less
 likely to suffer from testosterone poisoning.

Well, that's an interesting theory, but I don't neccessarily agree with it
(before or after). Most of the time, where troops have contact with the
local population or the enemy, women soldiers will not be around, or at the
very least apparent. This is because of the non-combat role they're in.
Personally, based on my experience, I think more has to do with training,
higher intelligence level of most troops (thanks to education...say what you
will about the US educational system, and indeed there are many problems,
but at the very least US soldiers are better educated than most of the
populations they come incontact with in Operations Other than Warfare, plus
the education they get in the military), and better quality recruits (who
are volunteers). Compare this to the Vietnam era, when educational standards
were lower, the Army still practiced conscription, and had yet to experience
the self-analysis of the post-Vietnam period.

Damon.

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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-04 Thread Gautam Mukunda

--- Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Well, that's an interesting theory, but I don't
 neccessarily agree with it
 (before or after). Most of the time, where troops
 have contact with the
 local population or the enemy, women soldiers will
 not be around, or at the
 very least apparent. This is because of the
 non-combat role they're in.

 Damon.

This is certainly true, of course.  I think the theory
is that the presence of women in the area has a high
benefit.  The British and Canadian armies are both
also volunteer, and while the educational level and
such of the American military is definitely better
than both, it seems like the huge gap in performance
seems like it is too large to be explained by that
sort of fairly marginal difference.

That aside, I have to say that I find myself virtually
incapable of thinking about this rationally.  I am
_quivering_ with rage about this.  This is personal to
me.  I volunteered to go there almost a year ago. 
_Two weeks ago_ they called me to say that my security
clearance was being processed and that a final offer
might be imminent.  Just by _volunteering_ I probably
did permanent damage to my career at McKinsey, which
was not a small thing to give up.  These fucking
idiots have permanently stained the effort of every
one of my friends over there, of every _person_
working there in both the army and the civilian
service.  If the army decided to shoot them in the
main street of _Baghdad_ I wouldn't be upset.

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Freedom is not free
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com




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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-04 Thread Julia Thompson

Gautam Mukunda wrote:

 That aside, I have to say that I find myself virtually
 incapable of thinking about this rationally.  I am
 _quivering_ with rage about this.  This is personal to
 me.  I volunteered to go there almost a year ago.
 _Two weeks ago_ they called me to say that my security
 clearance was being processed and that a final offer
 might be imminent.  Just by _volunteering_ I probably
 did permanent damage to my career at McKinsey, which
 was not a small thing to give up.  These fucking
 idiots have permanently stained the effort of every
 one of my friends over there, of every _person_
 working there in both the army and the civilian
 service.  If the army decided to shoot them in the
 main street of _Baghdad_ I wouldn't be upset.

At the risk of drawing a lot of fire from all quarters:

It occurred to me that perhaps the thing to do is to identify all the
people who participated in the torture-for-amusement, and turn them over
to the Iraqi people.

Some sort of justice (or at least poetic justice) would be served, and
it would be a hell of a deterrent against anyone else doing anything
remotely like it for a good, long time.

Julia
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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-04 Thread Keith Henson

At 10:26 PM 04/05/04 -0500, ulia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
At the risk of drawing a lot of fire from all quarters:
It occurred to me that perhaps the thing to do is to identify all the
people who participated in the torture-for-amusement, and turn them over
to the Iraqi people.
Some sort of justice (or at least poetic justice) would be served, and
it would be a hell of a deterrent against anyone else doing anything
remotely like it for a good, long time.
As *rational* as your suggestion is, I doubt it would prevent this kind of 
abuse.  Understanding where it comes from *might* help people figure out 
ways to prevent it.

Brutality of this sort is hardly a new problem, one could say it is a 
*feature* of human behavior.  It comes out in other places, like the near 
impossibility of stamping out hazing in college.

In fact, I make a claim that the punisher side of hazing and the brutality 
that went on in that Iraq prison are manifestations of the same underlying 
conditionally turned on psychological mechanism.  I don't have a name for 
it, but it is the counterpart to capture-bonding also known as Stockholm 
Syndrome.

I have written a lot about capture-bonding, of which Elizabeth Smart and 
Patty Hearst are both examples.  Other examples of the same psychological 
trait being expressed are battered wife syndrome, army basic training, and 
even sex practices like BD.

In real short form, for millions of years tribes captured people (mostly 
women) from other tribes.  Those who had the psychological trait to 
reorient to their captors often became ancestors, the ones who didn't 
became breakfast.  A million years of this kind of live or die filter makes 
the trait almost as much of an instinct as walking.

A longer version of this argument is part of the article 
here:  http://human-nature.com/nibbs/02/cults.html

If humans respond to capture and abuse by bonding, then the trait to abuse 
captives is likely to have also been selected.  The argument isn't as 
obvious as the survival link with capture-bonding.  But it figures that in 
a world where 10% of an average tribe's females were captured, those who 
had the genes for an instinct for the brutal behavior needed to capture 
and turn on the capture-bonding trait in the captives left more descendents 
than those without it.

And, like the capture-bonding trait, over a long enough time the trait to 
induce capture-bonding would become nearly universal.  I.e., it would be 
triggered in response to the conditions needed to turn it on.  I suspect 
that's the evolutionary origin of the trait expressed by the guards in 
Zimbardo's famous Stanford prison 
experiment.  http://www.prisonexp.org/  The trait to be brutal gets 
automatically switched on by the mere presence of captives.

I am open to a name for the trait to induce capture-bonding  (Or we could 
use the acronym TTICB.)

Of course prisons didn't exist in tribal times.  A captive escaped, became 
part of the tribe or was killed.  So in the stone age a brief brutality 
episode (like the few days to a week duration of hazing) would be followed 
by integrating the captive into a tribe.  Prisons keep the TTICB switched 
on, but frustrated.  Very unnatural, like hazing that is not permitted to 
let up on the targets.

These conditionally switched on mechanisms (like the mechanism for inducing 
wars I posted about a few weeks ago) operate below the thinking or rational 
level.  Indeed, the rational level is likely to make up grotesque 
justifications for the brutal behavior induced by switched on lower level 
psychological mechanisms.  So while it might help, the prospect of 
punishment isn't likely to greatly deter brutality against prisoners

Back to the question of how to prevent this sort of abuse.  Even the most 
brutal would be reluctant to do it on camera.  Perhaps as David Brin has 
suggested in The Transparent Society guards and prisoners should both be 
wearing web cameras.  At least if they were being recorded all the time and 
watched live some of the time these abuses would not go on for most of a 
year before being exposed.

Keith




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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

2004-05-03 Thread Travis Edmunds

From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 21:31:01 -0700 (PDT)
Anyone here ever seen the results of Zambardo's
Stanford Prison Experiment?
Do you have a link for that? I'm currently engaged in a debate on this 
subject which unexpectedly sprang up in another forum before it did here.

-Travis

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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

http://www.prisonexp.org/

Gary
http://elemming2.blogspot.com

On Mon, 03 May 2004 13:44:01 -0230, Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Anyone here ever seen the results of Zambardo's
 Stanford Prison Experiment?
 
 Do you have a link for that? I'm currently engaged in a debate on this
 subject which unexpectedly sprang up in another forum before it did here.
 
 -Travis
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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

Mike Lee:

All our enemies, including the New York Times and Ted Koppel, are
already all over this.

Let's also remember that this is hazing, not torture. No wood
chippers, no blood splashing all over the place.

It's not morally equivalent to what Saddam did (as I've heard several
media morons saying this morning).

You have to admit, though, some of those pictures were pretty funny.


Just wanted to preserve your definition of not torture.  Your
funnier than freaky Ann C.

So we aren't like Saddam because our guys are wimps and not bloody enough?

I must look up funny.
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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture

Here is the url - http://www.sundayherald.com/41693

Don't just blame untrained unsupervised Americans either:
 
The British pictures show a hooded Iraqi aged between 18-20 on the
floor of a military truck being brutalised. According to two squaddies
who took part in the torture, but later blew the whistle, the Iraqi's
ordeal lasted eight hours and he was left with a broken jaw and
missing teeth. He was bleeding and vomited when his captors threw him
out of a speeding truck. No-one knows if he lived or died.

One of the British soldiers said: Basically this guy was dying as he
couldn't take any more. An officer came down. It was 'Get rid of him 
I haven't seen him'. The other whistle-blower said he had witnessed a
prisoner being beaten senseless by troops. You could hear your mate's
boots hitting this lad's spine ... One of the lads broke his wrist off
a prisoner's head. Another nearly broke his foot kicking him.
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Re: Disturbing evidence of torture