Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
+1 On 1 Feb 2011, at 02:31, Ben Forta wrote: I officially nominate this thread as the least productive on cf-talk ever. --- Ben Mark Drew Railo Technologies UK Professional Open Source skype: mark_railo email: m...@getrailo.com gtalk: m...@getrailo.com tel:+44 7971 85 22 96 tel (int): +13474485715 web:http://www.getrailo.com ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341784 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Dave, your right it doesn't seem to have made much difference yet, but as I have said many times before is the fact that the cf community does not cover the entire cf user base. There are a huge number of developers and users out there who do not participate in the community. Customers with CF driven websites on shared hosting etc, most of these people do not even know when a new version of CF comes out, let alone that there is an open source alternative. Even many within the community still don't know of the OSS alternatives. So just as you cannot build a website and they will come, you also can't just release an OSS cfml engine and expect everyone to know about it. Until CFML makes it into the main stream web media and is given some decent coverage then I don't really see how things can change. Currently CF gets nothing more than the odd mention/article. I recently had a letter published in a major net mag (unknown to me) which asked the editor why does CF rarely get mentioned and drew attention to the OSS alternatives and that you could use both for free on www.cfmldeveloper.com. Even this minor coverage resulted in a small surge of visits to www.cfmldeveloper.com, so I think that in itself shows that there is still interest and potential new users out there. I think the difficulties in getting Railo installed and working has been a big block for many, and the team did rather assume that being a developer meant you know about running a server, which is just not true as the average developer only knows how to code not run a server or maintain an OS, and thankfully has been addressed now with a new installer. Look at any PHP forum and you will see plenty of PHP developers who struggle to get PHP working properly or getting php apps to work locally, what you can also see is that many of these developers simply develop directly on their hosts servers and don't worry about those issues. This has always been a plus for CF, while the whole Java/Servlets container/CF setup is actually very complex, Adobe's click, install, go has always made it easy, but this still causes issues for many as they still need to get a web server, mail server and db server running as well which comes with its own challenges. There has always been a plethora of free/cheap php hosts out there to accommodate the php developers which has no doubt helped tremendously, and cfmldeveloper.com tries to do the same for cf developers, but I suspect very few people know about it outside the community, and those are the people you do want to know about resources that will help them with CFML, but how to get the word out is the problem. On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 4:38 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: Why do you think it's absurd to think that open source engines will bring more people? Because it doesn't seem to have done so, so far. Because the niche in which CF is popular doesn't seem to care that much about open source or free. Because there are plenty of other open source engines in other languages, and people who care a lot about that seem to have mostly already moved to one of those. Do you think the only thing that makes a language worth something, is how much it costs? No. I'm not sure where you got that from my previous responses. What about my argument about one in the bush, vs. none in the bush? That's not an argument, it's speculation. And say Adobe did drop CF-- do you think that would spell the end of the language? Yeah, I do. I don't think that everyone would switch to comparatively unknown, new alternatives. If a big company like Adobe can't guarantee the future of CF, why would anyone think that these other people can? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341785 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? [spamtrap bayes][spamtrap heur]
then move it there. +1 On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 2:49 AM, Paul Hastings p...@sustainablegis.comwrote: On 2/1/2011 12:46 PM, denstar wrote: First off, this portion of the discussion probably belongs on cf-community. then move it there. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341786 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? [spamtrap bayes][spamtrap heur]
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Paul Hastings wrote: On 1/31/2011 11:02 AM, denstar wrote: It was based on a percent. So I guess the real number would be 170 out of a 1000. I think. 17%? I suck at math. you said 17 out of 100 people who replied to that survey. that's a useless sample size. Yeah, but I worded it more to sound statistical-ish. Either way... freaking statistics, neh? Brian has a point about the survey, too. Still relatively useless, I reckon. It's all about perspective (or 1000 is a bit better but still tiny compared to the community. My overall point was that surely there's *some* non-zero number of people trying/using coldfusion that wouldn't before, if not just because of the fact that it was a closed architecture. If the number had been 0, perhaps. no, a sample of 1 is still not really worth mentioning besides the fact that it really can't be the only reason for the swap. Why not? Surely money is a factor most places? If you gotta choose between paying a coder, and paying a license... well I guess that sucks, and it should never be like that in Software Land, but hell, it happens. I'd rather have the coder. Even if CFML gives one coder the strength of ten. =) once again be the engine powering said crap. If I switch to PHP, there is, IMHO, markedly less of a chance for Adobe to ever be the engine powering my crap. perhaps but it's hard to say exactly why a shop would swap technologies. sometimes its a stupid a reason as what some clown wrote in one of those tech rags like sys-con. It can be all kinds of stuff. I see hiring CF coders come up quite often, but it's easy as snot to train folks. People like the stuff they like though, be it just cuz they like it, or they read about it in a blog or magazine or some such. Having open source engine alternatives is more ammo for folks fighting for CFML use, hands down. How someone could see this as bad for the language, or us, as coders in said language, is beyond me. And let us not forget that a lot of pointy-headed-bosses *love* big yes that's true but those same pointy-headed-bosses keep a lot of developers employed. Exactly. And a lot of corporate help line call center employees employed. And a lot of lawyers employed. And a lot of other big muckity-mucks gainfully employed. It's almost like a club or separate ecosystem. Super-huge-corp-X would probably naturally gravitate towards Adobe, as they'd be like, on the same team, sorta. I'd guess that it's there, where the Real Money is made anyways. In The Enterprise. I think there's plenty of room for both public and private. I still wouldn't mind seeing the figures. Anecdotal-ish-ly, it seems like the number of OSS projects has exploded over the last couple years. perhaps but it's just as likely that there is now a place to put publicize those OS projects (you know, the one that adobe sponsors). as i said my OS stuff has nothing to do w/either of those. and let me also point out that most of ray-the-OS-engine's apps predate railo/BD going OS. i don't see any causal relationship. Causation, correlation. Yeah. I can dig it. It personally effected me, but I'm just an individual, like everybody else. And to be clear, I'm not knocking Adobe. I'm not saying that they hate open source software or some such. I think they do a lot of stuff that's good. Way more than they get credit for in general, on the list. I like how if you search for CFML, the dev center is the second link on Google. No other language I looked at had that going for it. I like how they sponsor open source projects for incorporating AIR into things and whatnot. It would be cool if more of the sexy CFML apps were listed under Third Party Whatsists, and the category wasn't called Third Party Stuff or whatever. Sorta a showcase of sorts. Neither of the open source engines are pushing things like Mango Blog either, but hell, I could probably send either one a page to put up if I cared that much. That's what's awesome about open source. Well, really, it's that, when I'm like, why the hell is this doing that?, I don't have to get crazy with a decompiler (not that I'd ever decompile anything, this is just an example). Or, when I'm all like, I want this to do that /I can make it happen/! Self-reliance, even if you don't take advantage of it, is a wicked-cool thing to have. But so are stamp collections, to some people, so, take it with a grain of salt. Deadly seriously. =) you claim that prior to BD/railo failing as commercial projects there was no stability in CF? geez that's a stretch. The kind of stability I'm talking of? Obviously not, unless you think whoever owned it at the time would have open sourced it, so it would live on. Would you put money on that? Or would you just live with the bugs in the version that came out in 1999, as it were? 10 years later, saying it's not dead, the last version was just perfect? Do most companies
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Denny, I think you see the world as you would hope it to be, not for the reality that it is. A commendable quality, but not one Adobe can choose to share with so many CFML careers on the line. It's been 3 years since OpenBD/Railo went open source and removed the price barrier to CFML adoption. 3 years since they gave up their attempts to compete with Adobe commercially. 3 years since they proclaimed CFML is not worth paying for. At any time Adobe could have made (or will make) ColdFusion free. Problem is, cost is not the only barrier to adoption -- a reality many seem to ignore. So, 3 years later, our community for all intensive purposes seems to be shrinking (we have more CF jobs than developers). On top of losing CFML developers, we now have a large amount a fragmentation. It would seem that anything Adobe does in the CFML space is directly combated by the Open CF movement. Because of this, CFML has increasingly become more and more toxic for Adobe. I can't tell you how hard it is to fight for this community within Adobe when a small external faction is recklessly trying to tear it down. How can I ask Adobe to invest $$$ into growing the CFML developer community when our ability to get a return is dramatically reduced? The fact is, the Donna Bing's of the world (and the rest of the Open CF community) have all but written off Adobe and ColdFusion. They've decided to no longer invest any money in CFML and won't even give Adobe guidance to change. This is an honest and genuine question: Are CFML developers better off today than they were 3 years ago? At the rate of which things are progressing, will they be better off in 2014? Would they be better of w/o Adobe ColdFusion? -Adam PS. Sorry to make this all about money, but that's one of the realities we have to face about our current ecosystem. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341741 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
for all intensive purposes Must.Resist. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341742 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
You want to know why I've been moving my projects from Adobe CF to Railo, Adam? It's quite simple, really. Railo is a better product for me. I've not had a very good experience with Adobe as a cfml developer and I've had a much better experience with Railo as a cfml developer. Yes, even with a support contract with Adobe. You can complain all you want about a small faction trying to recklessly tear down the community but that's bullshit. Railo performs faster as a product and the company is more responsive to developers. That's why I use it. If you want me as a developer (and it certainly seems like you don't), now you know how to get me back. I don't have anything against Adobe as a company, I'm not an angry, ranting open source purist. I'm happy for Adobe to make money off it's products and I'm glad of the things they have already done in the open source space (like the Flex SDK). End of the day, though, I'm here to develop great applications and hopefully to enjoy the process of doing so. Make developers more productive, their applications perform faster and be responsive to their concerns and I'm sure Adobe will do wonderfully. Complaining about open source projects isn't the way to woo me though, gotta say. Judah On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.com wrote: Denny, I think you see the world as you would hope it to be, not for the reality that it is. A commendable quality, but not one Adobe can choose to share with so many CFML careers on the line. It's been 3 years since OpenBD/Railo went open source and removed the price barrier to CFML adoption. 3 years since they gave up their attempts to compete with Adobe commercially. 3 years since they proclaimed CFML is not worth paying for. At any time Adobe could have made (or will make) ColdFusion free. Problem is, cost is not the only barrier to adoption -- a reality many seem to ignore. So, 3 years later, our community for all intensive purposes seems to be shrinking (we have more CF jobs than developers). On top of losing CFML developers, we now have a large amount a fragmentation. It would seem that anything Adobe does in the CFML space is directly combated by the Open CF movement. Because of this, CFML has increasingly become more and more toxic for Adobe. I can't tell you how hard it is to fight for this community within Adobe when a small external faction is recklessly trying to tear it down. How can I ask Adobe to invest $$$ into growing the CFML developer community when our ability to get a return is dramatically reduced? The fact is, the Donna Bing's of the world (and the rest of the Open CF community) have all but written off Adobe and ColdFusion. They've decided to no longer invest any money in CFML and won't even give Adobe guidance to change. This is an honest and genuine question: Are CFML developers better off today than they were 3 years ago? At the rate of which things are progressing, will they be better off in 2014? Would they be better of w/o Adobe ColdFusion? -Adam PS. Sorry to make this all about money, but that's one of the realities we have to face about our current ecosystem. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341743 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
What are we actually debating, again? The original issue at the root of all this was that Adobe is being abusive to the OSS engines. Highlighting the competitive advantages that Adobe feels they have over Railo or OpenBD, or the negative impact they feel it those engines have on the Adobe or CF community, is not abuse. It is exactly what competitors do. Everyone is free to agree or disagree with what Adobe is saying. But to call it abuse reveals, at best, a lack of understanding of what the word means, and at worst, an intentional misrepresentation. I keep asking for some examples of the horrible abuse that Adobe (or anyone, really) are directing at the OSS engines, but no one seems to be bothering to provide any. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341744 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
You have it exactly backwards, Brian. Adam accused the Open Source cfml community of being abusive toward Adobe. And I quote from Adam: The open CF side of the community couldn't be more abusive towards Adobe. It's laughable to think that the community holding the OS vendors accountable would make someone leave CF. I called Adam out on this statement and will continue to do so. The Railo and CFEclipse lists, at least, are quite far from abusive toward Adobe. I do not monitor the OpenBD lists, so perhaps there is something going on there that I am unaware of. But the accusation of abuse came from Adam, not the other way around. Judah On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Brian Kotek brian...@gmail.com wrote: What are we actually debating, again? The original issue at the root of all this was that Adobe is being abusive to the OSS engines. Highlighting the competitive advantages that Adobe feels they have over Railo or OpenBD, or the negative impact they feel it those engines have on the Adobe or CF community, is not abuse. It is exactly what competitors do. Everyone is free to agree or disagree with what Adobe is saying. But to call it abuse reveals, at best, a lack of understanding of what the word means, and at worst, an intentional misrepresentation. I keep asking for some examples of the horrible abuse that Adobe (or anyone, really) are directing at the OSS engines, but no one seems to be bothering to provide any. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341745 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
The only abuse I've seen from Adobehttp://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=For%20all%20intensive%20purposeswas abuse of the English language. /me runs On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:12 PM, Brian Kotek brian...@gmail.com wrote: What are we actually debating, again? The original issue at the root of all this was that Adobe is being abusive to the OSS engines. Highlighting the competitive advantages that Adobe feels they have over Railo or OpenBD, or the negative impact they feel it those engines have on the Adobe or CF community, is not abuse. It is exactly what competitors do. Everyone is free to agree or disagree with what Adobe is saying. But to call it abuse reveals, at best, a lack of understanding of what the word means, and at worst, an intentional misrepresentation. I keep asking for some examples of the horrible abuse that Adobe (or anyone, really) are directing at the OSS engines, but no one seems to be bothering to provide any. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341746 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
I agree with you, who really cares what Adobe say about Railo or vice versa, as you say this is normal competitive practice and any company need to prove their product is the best and normal practice is to say our product does this, theirs doesn't, so no-one is doing anything wrong there. The blurred line however seems to be whether it is the OSS or the people who use it getting the abuse. From what I have seen and experienced it is the users dishing out most of the abuse, and many of them really should know better. On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Brian Kotek brian...@gmail.com wrote: What are we actually debating, again? The original issue at the root of all this was that Adobe is being abusive to the OSS engines. Highlighting the competitive advantages that Adobe feels they have over Railo or OpenBD, or the negative impact they feel it those engines have on the Adobe or CF community, is not abuse. It is exactly what competitors do. Everyone is free to agree or disagree with what Adobe is saying. But to call it abuse reveals, at best, a lack of understanding of what the word means, and at worst, an intentional misrepresentation. I keep asking for some examples of the horrible abuse that Adobe (or anyone, really) are directing at the OSS engines, but no one seems to be bothering to provide any. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341747 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
You have it exactly backwards, Brian. Adam accused the Open Source cfml community of being abusive toward Adobe. And I quote from Adam: The open CF side of the community couldn't be more abusive towards Adobe. It's laughable to think that the community holding the OS vendors accountable would make someone leave CF. I called Adam out on this statement and will continue to do so. The Railo and CFEclipse lists, at least, are quite far from abusive toward Adobe. I do not monitor the OpenBD lists, so perhaps there is something going on there that I am unaware of. But the accusation of abuse came from Adam, not the other way around. That's a response from Adam to a post by Russ. You may want to read that post. To save you the trouble of finding it, here's the relevant line: Attitude of the CF community (mainly caused by certain people being abusive to Railo/BD) Attitude of Adobe Now, I don't really have a dog in this fight - while I'm an Adobe partner, and resell Adobe products, I simply haven't seen any impact on that business from the open-source engines. But I haven't seen anything I'd qualify as abuse coming from either Adobe or anyone speaking on Adobe's behalf, even indirectly. It's not abuse to point out the cannibalistic effect that competing open-source engines may have on the ColdFusion market. It strikes me as kind of absurd for the people arguing in favor of these engines to say that they'll draw new developers to CF; perhaps they'll keep people on CF who would otherwise leave, but those are two different things. To me, really only one thing is certain - if ColdFusion does not continue to make money for Adobe, they'll drop it like yesterday's news. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341748 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.com wrote: So, 3 years later, our community for all intensive purposes seems to be shrinking (we have more CF jobs than developers). But didn't you hold up the Evans Data Corp analysis, as recently as CFUnited 2010, to show that the number of CF developers has been increasing over recent years? According to those numbers, the community doubled from 400k to 800k since the Adobe acquisition of Macromedia (and had gone from 250k to 400k in the year prior to the Adobe acquisition): http://beacon.wharton.upenn.edu/brainstorm/files/2009/06/cf_dev_pop_increase.jpg Are you now saying that the numbers have decreased since 2008 (the last year shown in that graph)? The ColdFusion Evangelist Kit (last updated March 18, 2010) on the Adobe site includes the EDC numbers and states: * 12,000+ companies (20% increase since 2007) * 778,000 developers * 1,089,000 applications * 350+ user groups * 11,000 downloads per month Those seem pretty health numbers to me - are you now saying those numbers aren't accurate? Railo's mailing list has just under 900 developers and the download statistics indicate 2,500 - 3,000 downloads a months. Unless Adobe's downloads have dropped to 8,000 downloads per month since March 18, 2010, doesn't that indicate that more people than ever are downloading a CFML engine which would mean the market is growing, not shrinking? And this doesn't include an OpenBD numbers. On top of losing CFML developers, we now have a large amount a fragmentation. What do you see as fragmentation? I see open source projects deliberately supporting all three major engines so code portability can be maintained. I see Adobe and Railo both sponsoring conferences, helping the community reach more developers. I see a lot of developers using multiple CFML engines rather than using some other technology for projects where they couldn't afford Adobe ColdFusion. Using CFML for all projects is better than using PHP for some projects, yes? It would seem that anything Adobe does in the CFML space is directly combated by the Open CF movement. I'm not quite sure what you mean by the Open CF movement nor what you think is being directly combated. Can you provide some specific examples of something Adobe has done that has been directly combated? Do you feel that JBoss or Apache Geronimo are destroying IBM (WebSphere) or Oracle (WebLogic, Oracle AS) or that the OpenJDK project is harming the proprietary JVM vendors? This is an honest and genuine question: Are CFML developers better off today than they were 3 years ago? Well, the economy has hurt a lot of people in all walks of life so that might have to be factored into any answers - but I'll be interested to see what people say about this. PS. Sorry to make this all about money, but that's one of the realities we have to face about our current ecosystem. Have you read The Cathedral and the Bazaar? Just curious. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341749 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Thank you, Dave, I missed that bit. When I read Adam's post he wasn't directly quoting another post so I had not connected his statement to that of Russ' Personally, I don't think that anyone has been terribly mean to anyone else by historic tech debate standards. I did challenge Adam on his statement and I've yet to see where he has identified the abuse being heaped on Adobe from people involved with the other engines. It seemed rather unprofessional to me but that is neither here nor there. I cannot make a comment about the OS engines cannibalizing sales or creating new cfml developers and such, I don't have the data. I can comment on my perceptions of Railo versus Adobe as a developer and have. I think that some things get rather personal rather too quickly on mailing lists and that is a shame. And I do agree with you about Adobe dropping CF if they don't make money on it, that's just a fact of business life. Thanks again, Dave. Judah On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: You have it exactly backwards, Brian. Adam accused the Open Source cfml community of being abusive toward Adobe. And I quote from Adam: The open CF side of the community couldn't be more abusive towards Adobe. It's laughable to think that the community holding the OS vendors accountable would make someone leave CF. I called Adam out on this statement and will continue to do so. The Railo and CFEclipse lists, at least, are quite far from abusive toward Adobe. I do not monitor the OpenBD lists, so perhaps there is something going on there that I am unaware of. But the accusation of abuse came from Adam, not the other way around. That's a response from Adam to a post by Russ. You may want to read that post. To save you the trouble of finding it, here's the relevant line: Attitude of the CF community (mainly caused by certain people being abusive to Railo/BD) Attitude of Adobe Now, I don't really have a dog in this fight - while I'm an Adobe partner, and resell Adobe products, I simply haven't seen any impact on that business from the open-source engines. But I haven't seen anything I'd qualify as abuse coming from either Adobe or anyone speaking on Adobe's behalf, even indirectly. It's not abuse to point out the cannibalistic effect that competing open-source engines may have on the ColdFusion market. It strikes me as kind of absurd for the people arguing in favor of these engines to say that they'll draw new developers to CF; perhaps they'll keep people on CF who would otherwise leave, but those are two different things. To me, really only one thing is certain - if ColdFusion does not continue to make money for Adobe, they'll drop it like yesterday's news. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341750 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Judah, I'm not complaining, I'm stating the facts. I've been a CF developer since I was 18. I married a CF developer and the best man at my wedding is a CF developer. My intentions aren't to make Adobe rich, they are to ensure that the thousands of people who built their career on CFML can continue to be employed. You can choose to ignore what I'm saying, but it doesn't change the facts. -Adam On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.com wrote: You want to know why I've been moving my projects from Adobe CF to Railo, Adam? It's quite simple, really. Railo is a better product for me. I've not had a very good experience with Adobe as a cfml developer and I've had a much better experience with Railo as a cfml developer. Yes, even with a support contract with Adobe. You can complain all you want about a small faction trying to recklessly tear down the community but that's bullshit. Railo performs faster as a product and the company is more responsive to developers. That's why I use it. If you want me as a developer (and it certainly seems like you don't), now you know how to get me back. I don't have anything against Adobe as a company, I'm not an angry, ranting open source purist. I'm happy for Adobe to make money off it's products and I'm glad of the things they have already done in the open source space (like the Flex SDK). End of the day, though, I'm here to develop great applications and hopefully to enjoy the process of doing so. Make developers more productive, their applications perform faster and be responsive to their concerns and I'm sure Adobe will do wonderfully. Complaining about open source projects isn't the way to woo me though, gotta say. Judah On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.com wrote: Denny, I think you see the world as you would hope it to be, not for the reality that it is. A commendable quality, but not one Adobe can choose to share with so many CFML careers on the line. It's been 3 years since OpenBD/Railo went open source and removed the price barrier to CFML adoption. 3 years since they gave up their attempts to compete with Adobe commercially. 3 years since they proclaimed CFML is not worth paying for. At any time Adobe could have made (or will make) ColdFusion free. Problem is, cost is not the only barrier to adoption -- a reality many seem to ignore. So, 3 years later, our community for all intensive purposes seems to be shrinking (we have more CF jobs than developers). On top of losing CFML developers, we now have a large amount a fragmentation. It would seem that anything Adobe does in the CFML space is directly combated by the Open CF movement. Because of this, CFML has increasingly become more and more toxic for Adobe. I can't tell you how hard it is to fight for this community within Adobe when a small external faction is recklessly trying to tear it down. How can I ask Adobe to invest $$$ into growing the CFML developer community when our ability to get a return is dramatically reduced? The fact is, the Donna Bing's of the world (and the rest of the Open CF community) have all but written off Adobe and ColdFusion. They've decided to no longer invest any money in CFML and won't even give Adobe guidance to change. This is an honest and genuine question: Are CFML developers better off today than they were 3 years ago? At the rate of which things are progressing, will they be better off in 2014? Would they be better of w/o Adobe ColdFusion? -Adam PS. Sorry to make this all about money, but that's one of the realities we have to face about our current ecosystem. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341751 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Sorry Medic, my brain says intents while my fingers type intensive. Spell check fails me. -Adam On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Medic hofme...@gmail.com wrote: The only abuse I've seen from Adobe http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=For%20all%20intensive%20purposes was abuse of the English language. /me runs On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:12 PM, Brian Kotek brian...@gmail.com wrote: What are we actually debating, again? The original issue at the root of all this was that Adobe is being abusive to the OSS engines. Highlighting the competitive advantages that Adobe feels they have over Railo or OpenBD, or the negative impact they feel it those engines have on the Adobe or CF community, is not abuse. It is exactly what competitors do. Everyone is free to agree or disagree with what Adobe is saying. But to call it abuse reveals, at best, a lack of understanding of what the word means, and at worst, an intentional misrepresentation. I keep asking for some examples of the horrible abuse that Adobe (or anyone, really) are directing at the OSS engines, but no one seems to be bothering to provide any. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341752 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Judah, You can complain all you want about a small faction trying to recklessly tear down the community but that's bullshit. All I did was explain what's at risk for CFML developers. You didn't argue any of what I said other than to cal it bullshit. I'd say that's fairly abusive. -Adam On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.com wrote: You have it exactly backwards, Brian. Adam accused the Open Source cfml community of being abusive toward Adobe. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341753 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Finally my trolling pays off! Yes! It's all in good fun Adrock. On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 7:12 PM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.comwrote: Sorry Medic, my brain says intents while my fingers type intensive. Spell check fails me. -Adam On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Medic hofme...@gmail.com wrote: The only abuse I've seen from Adobe http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=For%20all%20intensive%20purposes was abuse of the English language. /me runs On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:12 PM, Brian Kotek brian...@gmail.com wrote: What are we actually debating, again? The original issue at the root of all this was that Adobe is being abusive to the OSS engines. Highlighting the competitive advantages that Adobe feels they have over Railo or OpenBD, or the negative impact they feel it those engines have on the Adobe or CF community, is not abuse. It is exactly what competitors do. Everyone is free to agree or disagree with what Adobe is saying. But to call it abuse reveals, at best, a lack of understanding of what the word means, and at worst, an intentional misrepresentation. I keep asking for some examples of the horrible abuse that Adobe (or anyone, really) are directing at the OSS engines, but no one seems to be bothering to provide any. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341754 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.com wrote: You have it exactly backwards, Brian. Adam accused the Open Source cfml community of being abusive toward Adobe. Actually, Judah, I don't have it backwards. You do. That's why I'm pointing this out and asking if anyone knows what the point of this discussion is any longer. Adam was RESPONDING to this: On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 7:35 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Attitude of the CF community (mainly caused by certain people being abusive to Railo/BD) Attitude of Adobe ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341755 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
yes which got twisted into adobe being abusive and Russ having a dig at Adobe's attitude to the community which I immediately pointed out to Adam is not what it said. The comments about Adobe being abusive to the community came from others replies. On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:25 AM, Brian Kotek brian...@gmail.comwrousivete: On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.com wrote: You have it exactly backwards, Brian. Adam accused the Open Source cfml community of being abusive toward Adobe. Actually, Judah, I don't have it backwards. You do. That's why I'm pointing this out and asking if anyone knows what the point of this discussion is any longer. Adam was RESPONDING to this: On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 7:35 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Attitude of the CF community (mainly caused by certain people being abusive to Railo/BD) Attitude of Adobe ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341756 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Brian Kotek brian...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.com wrote: You have it exactly backwards, Brian. Adam accused the Open Source cfml community of being abusive toward Adobe. Actually, Judah, I don't have it backwards. You do. That's why I'm pointing this out and asking if anyone knows what the point of this discussion is any longer. Adam was RESPONDING to this: Dave pointed out Russ' comment, which I missed as it was not part of Adam's rant. Thank you for pointing it out as well. My call out of Adam still stands, however. The open source community, as far as I can tell, is not abusive of Adobe. Cheers, Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341757 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Sean, I'm confused about whether you disagree with what I've said, or are just trying to redirect the conversation away from my question. You openly admit that as Chief Technical Officer of Railo you are not paid. So what's gone wrong? Surely you should be able to turn 2,500 - 3,000 downloads a month into a healthy consulting business. Your anecdotal numbers about downloads and mailing list subscribers aren't filling CFML jobs. Are you disagreeing with my statement that the CFML market isn't big enough to share between multiple vendors? If I said that EDG was wrong and there are only 1000 ColdFusion developers in the world, would Railo stop actively marketing to ColdFusion developers? Is that all it would take? Would Railo concede that having an open source and free CFML isn't moving the needle? I stand by my original question, is the CFML developer better off today than they were 3 years ago? If you think we are in a better place, then please ignore me. Just please don't get bent out of shape when Adobe recognizes Railo/OpenBD as a direct competitor. I think Judah provided a perfect example of why that's so. -Adam On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 7:00 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.com wrote: So, 3 years later, our community for all intensive purposes seems to be shrinking (we have more CF jobs than developers). But didn't you hold up the Evans Data Corp analysis, as recently as CFUnited 2010, to show that the number of CF developers has been increasing over recent years? According to those numbers, the community doubled from 400k to 800k since the Adobe acquisition of Macromedia (and had gone from 250k to 400k in the year prior to the Adobe acquisition): http://beacon.wharton.upenn.edu/brainstorm/files/2009/06/cf_dev_pop_increase.jpg Are you now saying that the numbers have decreased since 2008 (the last year shown in that graph)? The ColdFusion Evangelist Kit (last updated March 18, 2010) on the Adobe site includes the EDC numbers and states: * 12,000+ companies (20% increase since 2007) * 778,000 developers * 1,089,000 applications * 350+ user groups * 11,000 downloads per month Those seem pretty health numbers to me - are you now saying those numbers aren't accurate? Railo's mailing list has just under 900 developers and the download statistics indicate 2,500 - 3,000 downloads a months. Unless Adobe's downloads have dropped to 8,000 downloads per month since March 18, 2010, doesn't that indicate that more people than ever are downloading a CFML engine which would mean the market is growing, not shrinking? And this doesn't include an OpenBD numbers. On top of losing CFML developers, we now have a large amount a fragmentation. What do you see as fragmentation? I see open source projects deliberately supporting all three major engines so code portability can be maintained. I see Adobe and Railo both sponsoring conferences, helping the community reach more developers. I see a lot of developers using multiple CFML engines rather than using some other technology for projects where they couldn't afford Adobe ColdFusion. Using CFML for all projects is better than using PHP for some projects, yes? It would seem that anything Adobe does in the CFML space is directly combated by the Open CF movement. I'm not quite sure what you mean by the Open CF movement nor what you think is being directly combated. Can you provide some specific examples of something Adobe has done that has been directly combated? Do you feel that JBoss or Apache Geronimo are destroying IBM (WebSphere) or Oracle (WebLogic, Oracle AS) or that the OpenJDK project is harming the proprietary JVM vendors? This is an honest and genuine question: Are CFML developers better off today than they were 3 years ago? Well, the economy has hurt a lot of people in all walks of life so that might have to be factored into any answers - but I'll be interested to see what people say about this. PS. Sorry to make this all about money, but that's one of the realities we have to face about our current ecosystem. Have you read The Cathedral and the Bazaar? Just curious. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341758 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.com wrote: Judah, You can complain all you want about a small faction trying to recklessly tear down the community but that's bullshit. All I did was explain what's at risk for CFML developers. You didn't argue any of what I said other than to cal it bullshit. I'd say that's fairly abusive. Then you have my apologies, Adam. I find your entire behavior in this thread to be disturbing but if salty language directed at your discussion points (not at you) are deemed abusive, then I shall attempt to refrain from using such language in your direction in the future. I can now see how you feel that there has been abuse heaped on Adobe. Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341759 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.com wrote: If you think we are in a better place, then please ignore me. Just please don't get bent out of shape when Adobe recognizes Railo/OpenBD as a direct competitor. I think Judah provided a perfect example of why that's so. I am a perfect example of why Railo is a competitor, yes. You also seem to fail to acknowledge any of the reasons *why* Railo is a competitor in my situation. If you want to look at the problems Adobe has, you might start there instead of complaining. Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341760 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
I do not monitor the OpenBD lists, so perhaps there is something going on there that I am unaware of. Judah, I've been a subscriber to the Open BlueDragon list on Google groups since it started. I do not recall any anyone being abusive or very hostile to Adobe on it at any time. Mind you I'm the first to admit that my memory is faulty, but don't take my word for it, you can do the searches yourselves: http://groups.google.com/group/openbd/topics ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341761 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? [spamtrap bayes][spamtrap heur]
On 1/31/2011 3:05 PM, denstar wrote: Yeah, but I worded it more to sound statistical-ish. Either way... you worded it to make it sound better and that actually doesn't make it any more factual. My overall point was that surely there's *some* non-zero number of people trying/using coldfusion that wouldn't before, if not just because of the fact that it was a closed architecture. you have no proof of that. by your logic i can equally say that having open architecture drove away as many as it attracted. a way of thinking is not facts, that's another form of woo. Why not? Surely money is a factor most places? If you gotta choose between paying a coder, and paying a license... well I guess that if a cf license is going to force a company NOT to pay salaries then that company is in deep deep shit, even in the 3rd world. I'd rather have the coder. Even if CFML gives one coder the strength of ten. =) yeah i guess if you can grab a decent coder for the price of a cf license. but that's not even remotely true. Having open source engine alternatives is more ammo for folks fighting for CFML use, hands down. ammo doesn't mean squat if it's not used to hit what you're supposed to be aiming at. How someone could see this as bad for the language, or us, as coders in said language, is beyond me. it's been explained to you over over. you even acknowledged it said you didn't care (on twitter). muckity-mucks gainfully employed. It's almost like a club or separate ecosystem. those other parts are but a cf developer there is just as important to the cf community as a cf developer in a small shop. btw i don't see *you* declaring some vow of poverty, so might as well stop with these kinds of comparisons until you do. where the Real Money is made anyways. In The Enterprise. why do you think enterprise is some kind of swear word? we built enterprise level systems for municipalities here that helped increase their tax rolls (by helping make everybody who was supposed to pay taxes, actually pay them) silly little things like track school kid vaccinations. the tax justice we helped with allowed those cities to buy more toys like fire trucks have more money to waste on things like parks youth programs. And to be clear, I'm not knocking Adobe. I'm not saying that they some of your previous remarks kind of sound like that. Well, really, it's that, when I'm like, why the hell is this doing that?, I don't have to get crazy with a decompiler (not that I'd ever or you could just ask the cf team. if you don't take advantage of it, is a wicked-cool thing to have. sure but 99.99% of developers aren't going to go that deep or need to. and from what i've seen w/other OS projects some of the stuff produced from that 0.01% shouldn't be touched w/a 10 foot pole. Would you put money on that? obviously since i'm a cf developer, i have. Or would you just live with the bugs in the version that came out in 1999, as it were? 10 years later, saying it's not dead, the last version was just perfect? what high impact bugs are in cf since 1999? So they both closed up shop, eh? I hadn't heard, but I'm not privy to insider information. they failed as businesses selling s/w. Why the venom? Even if that was the case, I'd still cheer my heart out. statements of facts are not in of themselves venomous. why fall back to that as an argument? Do you have so little faith in the language? more nonsense from you. try again. I don't. I know you say it's not true, but I haven't seen the evidence. Can you clue me in to anything solid? you acknowledged this on twitter said you didn't care. remember? Maybe it also depends on the number of servers you're running? Not-free is not-free, and at some point, enough not-free adds up to, well, a number more than zero. i have no idea of your business but developing cf has never been very costly, geez we do it here it the 3rd world just fine. hosting/deploying has some cost but so does railo/BD. servers cost money. bandwidth cost money. backups cost money. no such thing as free. Whatever you want to believe, I think it's a happier world with open source CFML engines. i would agree if they were bringing in new developers instead of munching on the cf community's liver. Have you even looked at the open source engines? They're pretty swell. yes i have indeed. so what? having money, or caring but getting bought out. as i said you already know the reasons for me having issues w/the way railo is doing things. who's going to take over if adobe buys out railo? what happens to railo's customers in practice? they just might be the ones getting stuck w/stagnant s/w. If you want to see it that way, you can. I don't, but who am I to say? a fanboy ;-) what's good for the goose is good for the gander. l think it will all work out for the best in the end (and I have proof!). no you don't.
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
I officially nominate this thread as the least productive on cf-talk ever. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Judah McAuley [mailto:ju...@wiredotter.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 7:58 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.com wrote: If you think we are in a better place, then please ignore me. Just please don't get bent out of shape when Adobe recognizes Railo/OpenBD as a direct competitor. I think Judah provided a perfect example of why that's so. I am a perfect example of why Railo is a competitor, yes. You also seem to fail to acknowledge any of the reasons *why* Railo is a competitor in my situation. If you want to look at the problems Adobe has, you might start there instead of complaining. Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341763 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
I officially nominate this thread as the least productive on cf-talk ever. I'm sorry, Ben, but this one isn't even close. Are you forgetting all the why isn't CF/CFB free threads? Or the is CF dying threads? This one will need at least twenty more replies before it's even in the same category. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341764 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.com wrote: I'm confused about whether you disagree with what I've said, or are just trying to redirect the conversation away from my question. I was asking for confirmation / clarification on your position. I'll try to be more specific (below). If I said that EDG was wrong and there are only 1000 ColdFusion developers in the world Well, on one hand you're saying the CFML market is healthy and growing - and that's what the evangelist kit is meant to support - yet on the other hand you're saying that the market is shrinking - and blaming the FOSS engines. It can't be both so I'm asking you which it is? If more downloads is a measure of health then Adobe's 11k + Railo's 3k should indicate better health than just Adobe's 11k alone. If you're saying that the market is shrinking, then either downloads are no measure of health (and the 11k figure in the evangelist kit is fluff) or we would expect to see the overall downloads decrease - in which case Adobe's downloads must have dropped by over 3k a month for that to be true. Which is it? If you're claiming the community is shrinking, presumably you believe that the upward trend shown in the EDC numbers has reversed (even tho' you're still using those numbers to present an encouraging picture of the CFML community)? If the overall community is shrinking, that would have to mean that developers are leaving Adobe ColdFusion for other technologies - and doing so in large numbers, far beyond any number who might be using the FOSS engines. Let's suppose that the 900 developers on the Railo list have completely stopped using Adobe ColdFusion (they haven't - many of them use ACF for some projects and Railo for others). Out of nearly 800k developers, that would mean about 1% have adopted Railo, assuming zero growth in the community since 2008 - and for that to actually be an overall reduction in the community, Adobe must be losing developers faster than Railo is gaining them. Where are those other developers going and why? Even if you argue that Railo's download numbers indicate a faster flow of developers away from ACF to Railo, the only way the numbers support a shrinking of the overall community is if Adobe's download numbers have dropped dramatically since mid-March 2010. At 11k per month, you'd be on target to have 130k downloads a year. Railo had about 30k in the last year. Have Adobe's numbers really dropped so far that the total community downloads is shrinking? Yes, I can accept that Adobe's revenue might be impacted by competing tools, but I don't really buy the shrinking community argument and I certainly don't buy that competition within a community causes that community to shrink. If it really is shrinking, it's doing so for other reasons. Is the graphics / photography market shrinking because PhotoShop has competitors (both commercial and FOSS)? Hopefully that's less confusing? I stand by my original question, is the CFML developer better off today than they were 3 years ago? OK, I'll answer: yes, allowing for the overall impact of the economy, I do think the average CFML developer is better off today than in early 2008. I believe the trend shown in the EDC numbers has continued (although I think the economy has slowed growth of the CFML community somewhat). I believe developers are able to use CFML on projects where they had to use other technologies before. I believe that where some developers would have been forced to migrate to other technologies - for a variety of reasons - they now have a viable option to remain CFML developers and to stay within the ecosystem that surrounds the various CFML engines and tools. I think CF9 was a great release (as was CF8) and I think the teasers about CFX indicate even bigger / better things are in store for CFML developers. We have a great dedicated IDE in CFBuilder with solid plans for versions 2.0 and 3.0. To me, that all adds up to a very positive environment for our community. Just please don't get bent out of shape when Adobe recognizes Railo/OpenBD as a direct competitor. I have no problem with Adobe and Railo and OpenBD being considered competitors. Most people consider competition to be healthy in a free market economy. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341765 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Good point, I guess I blocked those from my memory. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to ignore this pointless banter up for a few more days before the thread makes it to the CF-Talk Rogues Gallery. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 8:58 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? I officially nominate this thread as the least productive on cf-talk ever. I'm sorry, Ben, but this one isn't even close. Are you forgetting all the why isn't CF/CFB free threads? Or the is CF dying threads? This one will need at least twenty more replies before it's even in the same category. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341766 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Wait, is CF dying? andy -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:b...@forta.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 8:15 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? Good point, I guess I blocked those from my memory. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to ignore this pointless banter up for a few more days before the thread makes it to the CF-Talk Rogues Gallery. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 8:58 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? I officially nominate this thread as the least productive on cf-talk ever. I'm sorry, Ben, but this one isn't even close. Are you forgetting all the why isn't CF/CFB free threads? Or the is CF dying threads? This one will need at least twenty more replies before it's even in the same category. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341767 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Rather than ignore it... is it worth trying to steer in a more productive direction? Can it be a productive discussion? I've gone on record before as saying I don't think the existence of the alternate engines spells the doom of Adobe ColdFusion. I may be wrong, but lord I hope not. Adobe ColdFusion has been -very- good to me over the past 15 years, not just professionally, but personally. Many of the people that I consider my best friends are friends that I've made in the CF community. So I've got both a personal and professional interest in this, and it's a subject that I care about quite a bit. If it can't be done here... so be it. Just seems that we have representation from all sides, and nobody seems to be too shy about sharing how they feel. All we need to do is steer the discussion in a direction where it's more productive and constructive. Assuming that direction... y'know... exists. On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 7:14 PM, Ben Forta b...@forta.com wrote: Good point, I guess I blocked those from my memory. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to ignore this pointless banter up for a few more days before the thread makes it to the CF-Talk Rogues Gallery. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 8:58 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? I officially nominate this thread as the least productive on cf-talk ever. I'm sorry, Ben, but this one isn't even close. Are you forgetting all the why isn't CF/CFB free threads? Or the is CF dying threads? This one will need at least twenty more replies before it's even in the same category. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341768 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Wow, Adobe is getting all bent out of shape because people are realising that Railo updates their engine more frequently. And can be rest assured that they aren't waiting for 2-3 years before a problem is fixed. Seems like Adobe should be looking into what's wrong in their own backyard before throwing sticks. Regards, Andrew Scott http://www.andyscott.id.au/ -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:adrocknapho...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, 1 February 2011 11:54 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? If you think we are in a better place, then please ignore me. Just please don't get bent out of shape when Adobe recognizes Railo/OpenBD as a direct competitor. I think Judah provided a perfect example of why that's so. -Adam ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341769 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On 01/31/2011 06:27 PM, Charlie Griefer wrote: Rather than ignore it... is it worth trying to steer in a more productive direction? Can it be a productive discussion? Agreed. Maybe we could address the other barriers to adoption that exist now besides cost? -Jordan ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341770 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
You forgot the link: http://instantrimshot.com/ http://instantrimshot.com/This thread reminds me of the movie Inception. Multiple layers and some confused people. I think Donna fell into limbo. It started out ok. -Mike Chabot On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 9:24 PM, andy matthews li...@commadelimited.comwrote: Wait, is CF dying? andy -Original Message- From: Ben Forta [mailto:b...@forta.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 8:15 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? Good point, I guess I blocked those from my memory. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to ignore this pointless banter up for a few more days before the thread makes it to the CF-Talk Rogues Gallery. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 8:58 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? I officially nominate this thread as the least productive on cf-talk ever. I'm sorry, Ben, but this one isn't even close. Are you forgetting all the why isn't CF/CFB free threads? Or the is CF dying threads? This one will need at least twenty more replies before it's even in the same category. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341771 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Charlie, I'd love to have a productive discussion on this subject. And yes, I have opinions on this one, I've shared them before and am happy to do so again. And no, as much as I admire Adam's passion for ColdFusion (it's why I nudged him into the role), I don't fully agree with his take on things. But regardless, I don't think this thread can be steered anywhere. When conversations denigrate to emotional rants and accusations and unsubstantiated sweeping generalizations, that's when I back away. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:charlie.grie...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 9:28 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? Rather than ignore it... is it worth trying to steer in a more productive direction? Can it be a productive discussion? I've gone on record before as saying I don't think the existence of the alternate engines spells the doom of Adobe ColdFusion. I may be wrong, but lord I hope not. Adobe ColdFusion has been -very- good to me over the past 15 years, not just professionally, but personally. Many of the people that I consider my best friends are friends that I've made in the CF community. So I've got both a personal and professional interest in this, and it's a subject that I care about quite a bit. If it can't be done here... so be it. Just seems that we have representation from all sides, and nobody seems to be too shy about sharing how they feel. All we need to do is steer the discussion in a direction where it's more productive and constructive. Assuming that direction... y'know... exists. On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 7:14 PM, Ben Forta b...@forta.com wrote: Good point, I guess I blocked those from my memory. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to ignore this pointless banter up for a few more days before the thread makes it to the CF-Talk Rogues Gallery. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 8:58 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? I officially nominate this thread as the least productive on cf-talk ever. I'm sorry, Ben, but this one isn't even close. Are you forgetting all the why isn't CF/CFB free threads? Or the is CF dying threads? This one will need at least twenty more replies before it's even in the same category. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341772 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Wow, Adobe is getting all bent out of shape because people are realising that Railo updates their engine more frequently. And can be rest assured that they aren't waiting for 2-3 years before a problem is fixed. Seems like Adobe should be looking into what's wrong in their own backyard before throwing sticks. I wonder what kind of regression testing Railo does before releasing an update? That's not intended as a dig, but there are differences between expectations for open-source software and commercial software, between large vendors and small, etc. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341773 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
When conversations denigrate to emotional rants and accusations and unsubstantiated sweeping generalizations, that's when I back away. You're no fun any more. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341774 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Hi Adam! I dream reality. We all do. Our perception of it is as powerful as whatever it, in fact, is. :) I proclaim CFML is worth sharing!. What you see as fragmentation, I see as coalescentation. What you see as an attempt to tear down, I see as an attempt to build up. We'll have to put all our data together now, to see the numbers, I reckon. Working in a big corporation can suck. I hate all the politics and whatnot that seems to come with the territory. Having to *repeatedly* show folks what is quite obviously good logic, instead of them just getting it the first time. I honestly think that the open source engines can be leveraged to make more money for Adobe than Adobe would have made otherwise, and in turn, make more money for CFML devs that we would have made otherwise. I don't want to see tons of jobs with low wages-- nobody at our diner because there's too many people there, so to speak-- but I wouldn't mind seeing CFML be a bit more visible. It's probably gonna happen just because of evolution. Our language is swell, and keeps getting sweller. It's got that je ne sais quoi. The free that comes with open source is not the kind of free that most people attribute to it. There's nothing wrong with making money, or making various corporations money. Frankly, it seems the most successful open source projects currently have some type of corporate partnership. I think that's evolved, because it makes money. It's easier to have sorta separate entities than to wrap your head around what open source is really all about. But that's just speculation. What I'm trying to get at, and probably achieving poorly, is the idea that it's not an either/or proposition. There's space for both, and indeed, together more can be achieved than separate. At least that's the way it looks. I could be seeing things incorrectly though. Or processing them wrong. It seems logical though. =) The software landscape seems to be changing. It took a while, but you can't deny that Open Source is playing a major role now, when years and years ago so many people proclaimed it couldn't work, even when faced with the data which made the extrapolation pretty straightforward. People need money to eat, and drink, and be merry. Sadly, currency is not going to go away anytime soon, even though we should just skip the middle man and trade in time. Is your time worth my time? Or something like that. Haven't quite worked that bit out, but what I'm saying is there's plenty of loot out there to be had. I guess I'm a poor example, loot-wise, but that's my bad. :) I genuinely feel that CFML developers are much better off today than they were 3 years ago. And 3 years before that. And 3 years before... money-wise, I miss the dot com bubble, even though I never took advantage of it myself, but code-wise, it's all positive feelings. The language continues get more fantastic, which is fabulous, we've got that $$ option for people with $$, and the open source element which seems so hip these days. We're covered. I think the work Adobe your team has done on CFB is awesome. There're not many people who know just how hard developing an IDE for our lovely language can be (even when standing on the shoulders of giants), but I'm one. Kudos, to your team for making it happen, and to Adobe for making it possible. I think that the power lies in our hands. Adobe is in a place plenty of other corps wish they were in. The positioning is swell... it's their game to throw. Played right, the future's bright. But I guess if I knew all that and a bag of chips, I'd be rolling in the dough, so... eh. I keep meaning to make money a priority... =) :Den -- It is a mania shared by philosophers of all ages to deny what exists and to explain what does not exist. Jean-Jacques Rousseau On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Adrocknaphobia wrote: Denny, I think you see the world as you would hope it to be, not for the reality that it is. A commendable quality, but not one Adobe can choose to share with so many CFML careers on the line. It's been 3 years since OpenBD/Railo went open source and removed the price barrier to CFML adoption. 3 years since they gave up their attempts to compete with Adobe commercially. 3 years since they proclaimed CFML is not worth paying for. At any time Adobe could have made (or will make) ColdFusion free. Problem is, cost is not the only barrier to adoption -- a reality many seem to ignore. So, 3 years later, our community for all intensive purposes seems to be shrinking (we have more CF jobs than developers). On top of losing CFML developers, we now have a large amount a fragmentation. It would seem that anything Adobe does in the CFML space is directly combated by the Open CF movement. Because of this, CFML has increasingly become more and more toxic for Adobe. I can't tell you how hard it is to fight for this community within Adobe when a small external faction is recklessly trying to
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Good question Dave, but I have cases where Adobe hasn't done any regression testing as well. Especially when it came to the addition of adding the new ExtJS stuff, and how much backward compatibility went out the window. One should not have to spend 3 months rewriting parts of an Application because of new bugs introduced into ColdFusion either, and be told we are not going to fix it either which forced us to do the rewrite and remove the dependency on ColdFusion. Regards, Andrew Scott http://www.andyscott.id.au/ -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: Tuesday, 1 February 2011 1:48 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? I wonder what kind of regression testing Railo does before releasing an update? That's not intended as a dig, but there are differences between expectations for open-source software and commercial software, between large vendors and small, etc. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341776 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:40 PM, Dave Watts wrote: ... Now, I don't really have a dog in this fight - while I'm an Adobe partner, and resell Adobe products, I simply haven't seen any impact on that business from the open-source engines. But I haven't seen anything I'd qualify as abuse coming from either Adobe or anyone speaking on Adobe's behalf, even indirectly. It's not abuse to point out the cannibalistic effect that competing open-source engines may have on the ColdFusion market. It strikes me as kind of absurd for the people arguing in favor of these engines to say that they'll draw new developers to CF; perhaps they'll keep people on CF who would otherwise leave, but those are two different things. To me, really only one thing is certain - if ColdFusion does not continue to make money for Adobe, they'll drop it like yesterday's news. My kind of dog fight involves air planes. :) Cannibalistic sounds rather grim, but I guess grim is pretty hot these days. Like Open Source-- The kids love it, and the girls go wild for it. Patience doesn't seem to be a very popular virtue. It's a shame, but it's natural. Why do you think it's absurd to think that open source engines will bring more people? Do you think the only thing that makes a language worth something, is how much it costs? What about my argument about one in the bush, vs. none in the bush? Is that illogical? Different, sure, but... everything's different, relatively generally speakingly. And say Adobe did drop CF-- do you think that would spell the end of the language? I don't consider myself outgoing, but I end up in various circles, and pay a bit of attention... and the various circles, to me, seem to be pointing at Adobe hanging with CFML to be a good idea. Because, obviously, I don't think it will go away if they drop it. On the contrary, I think they're in a good position to maybe, just maybe, keep up with the evolution of the software industry. At least as far as CFML is concerned, but take a look at the landscape here- the writing is on the wall. There's a battle going on, re public/private, open/closed, but it's not about the existence of one or the other anymore-- it's about balance. Adobe knows this. They haven't been contributing AIR stuff to open source projects just to get warm fuzzies. Bah. I love to talk and talk. Who really knows WTF is going on. Not I, surely... but at least I didn't say mindshare. =) FWIW, Railo follows the general theme of software development. The stable version gets more testing than the beta, which gets more testing than the alpha, etc.. Bugs are part of the game. Even Apple products fail sometimes, though they do a pretty good job of downplaying it, IMHO. Amazing; the power of perception! /me looks amazed, emphasistically :Den -- Man is born free and everywhere he is in chains. Jean-Jacques Rousseau ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341777 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Ben - if you think there's a venue in which the discussion *could* be had productively, I'd love to be a part of it, or at the very least, do whatever I could to help make it happen. Just say the word. On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Ben Forta b...@forta.com wrote: Charlie, I'd love to have a productive discussion on this subject. And yes, I have opinions on this one, I've shared them before and am happy to do so again. And no, as much as I admire Adam's passion for ColdFusion (it's why I nudged him into the role), I don't fully agree with his take on things. But regardless, I don't think this thread can be steered anywhere. When conversations denigrate to emotional rants and accusations and unsubstantiated sweeping generalizations, that's when I back away. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Charlie Griefer [mailto:charlie.grie...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 9:28 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? Rather than ignore it... is it worth trying to steer in a more productive direction? Can it be a productive discussion? I've gone on record before as saying I don't think the existence of the alternate engines spells the doom of Adobe ColdFusion. I may be wrong, but lord I hope not. Adobe ColdFusion has been -very- good to me over the past 15 years, not just professionally, but personally. Many of the people that I consider my best friends are friends that I've made in the CF community. So I've got both a personal and professional interest in this, and it's a subject that I care about quite a bit. If it can't be done here... so be it. Just seems that we have representation from all sides, and nobody seems to be too shy about sharing how they feel. All we need to do is steer the discussion in a direction where it's more productive and constructive. Assuming that direction... y'know... exists. On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 7:14 PM, Ben Forta b...@forta.com wrote: Good point, I guess I blocked those from my memory. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to ignore this pointless banter up for a few more days before the thread makes it to the CF-Talk Rogues Gallery. --- Ben -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 8:58 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? I officially nominate this thread as the least productive on cf-talk ever. I'm sorry, Ben, but this one isn't even close. Are you forgetting all the why isn't CF/CFB free threads? Or the is CF dying threads? This one will need at least twenty more replies before it's even in the same category. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341778 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Why do you think it's absurd to think that open source engines will bring more people? Because it doesn't seem to have done so, so far. Because the niche in which CF is popular doesn't seem to care that much about open source or free. Because there are plenty of other open source engines in other languages, and people who care a lot about that seem to have mostly already moved to one of those. Do you think the only thing that makes a language worth something, is how much it costs? No. I'm not sure where you got that from my previous responses. What about my argument about one in the bush, vs. none in the bush? That's not an argument, it's speculation. And say Adobe did drop CF-- do you think that would spell the end of the language? Yeah, I do. I don't think that everyone would switch to comparatively unknown, new alternatives. If a big company like Adobe can't guarantee the future of CF, why would anyone think that these other people can? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341779 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? [spamtrap bayes][spamtrap heur]
First off, this portion of the discussion probably belongs on cf-community. There is a whole 'nother portion that I, like Charlie, think should be discussed technically (or constructively). I applaud the folks doing so. On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Paul Hastings wrote: On 1/31/2011 3:05 PM, denstar wrote: ... My overall point was that surely there's *some* non-zero number of people trying/using coldfusion that wouldn't before, if not just because of the fact that it was a closed architecture. you have no proof of that. by your logic i can equally say that having open architecture drove away as many as it attracted. a way of thinking is not facts, that's another form of woo. All I have is educated guesses. Does it seem more logical to you that folks would abandon a good language because there was an open source variant? ... I'd rather have the coder. Even if CFML gives one coder the strength of ten. =) yeah i guess if you can grab a decent coder for the price of a cf license. but that's not even remotely true. And that's not what I said. If I'm incorrect, at least let me be incorrect about what I was talking about. :) Having open source engine alternatives is more ammo for folks fighting for CFML use, hands down. ammo doesn't mean squat if it's not used to hit what you're supposed to be aiming at. The public numbers I've seen look good. You keep telling me about how you're on the inside, and what I see in not the reality, but all I have is your word. Or woo, if you prefer. :) And it only seems to be focused more on Adobe than CFML. Are we talking about different things? How someone could see this as bad for the language, or us, as coders in said language, is beyond me. it's been explained to you over over. you even acknowledged it said you didn't care (on twitter). Ugh. :) You said something that sounded like hearsay, and I said even it it were true, I felt that open source alternatives were good for the language. muckity-mucks gainfully employed. It's almost like a club or separate ecosystem. those other parts are but a cf developer there is just as important to the cf community as a cf developer in a small shop. btw i don't see *you* declaring some vow of poverty, so might as well stop with these kinds of comparisons until you do. Heh. I guess if I lied and called it intentional... ;) where the Real Money is made anyways. In The Enterprise. why do you think enterprise is some kind of swear word? we built enterprise level systems for municipalities here that helped increase their tax rolls (by helping make everybody who was supposed to pay taxes, actually pay them) silly little things like track school kid vaccinations. the tax justice we helped with allowed those cities to buy more toys like fire trucks have more money to waste on things like parks youth programs. Not at all. Didn't you watch that South Park episode? Enterprise ain't evil. Hell, it's the name of a mighty fine starship. And to be clear, I'm not knocking Adobe. I'm not saying that they some of your previous remarks kind of sound like that. You can be pro X without implying anti Y. I can't control how you see what I type, but I've tried to type stuff that's pro-CFML, regardless of who's behind it, and emotion, belief, etc.. ... sure but 99.99% of developers aren't going to go that deep or need to. and from what i've seen w/other OS projects some of the stuff produced from that 0.01% shouldn't be touched w/a 10 foot pole. You think some of that can be bad, you should see my closed-source stuff. =) ... Why the venom? Even if that was the case, I'd still cheer my heart out. statements of facts are not in of themselves venomous. why fall back to that as an argument? I wasn't arguing, I was hinting that we don't *really* need to be angry in our conversation. Do you have so little faith in the language? more nonsense from you. try again. I worded it harshly, but I really don't understand the idea that good ideas need huge corporations behind them to be successful in the ways that matter. I don't. I know you say it's not true, but I haven't seen the evidence. Can you clue me in to anything solid? you acknowledged this on twitter said you didn't care. remember? I remember saying that even if what you said you'd heard through the back channels was true, I would still be happy we ended up with an open source engine out of the deal. That does not make what you said you heard true and non-woo. Do you have any data? I asked on twitter too. ... Whatever you want to believe, I think it's a happier world with open source CFML engines. i would agree if they were bringing in new developers instead of munching on the cf community's liver. Do you have some kind of numbers to back up this claim that open source engines *aren't* bringing new people into the fold? Looking at mailing list traffic, and other non-direct
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:47 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: I wonder what kind of regression testing Railo does before releasing an update? That's not intended as a dig, but there are differences between expectations for open-source software and commercial software, between large vendors and small, etc. A perfectly reasonable question. Railo has three update providers: * Bleeding Edge / Development * Preview * Stable For the Stable provider, every test engineering has is run and must pass. Since every JIRA ticket creates at least one new test, that body of tests is constantly increasing. This is recommended for production servers. For the Preview provider, consider that equivalent to 'beta' versions that have had manual testing on bug fixes or small changes to the stable version and may have had limited regression testing but haven't been run thru the full suite. This is recommended for users comfortable with testing bug fixes to verify that a reported fix is indeed correct. The BER provider is for early 'alpha' or even 'pre-alpha' testing of new features and has had only limited testing. For example, this provider currently offers early builds of the next point release of Railo - 3.3 - and partial features are made available here so users can provide early feedback and help shape them as they evolve. Once 3.3 hits release candidate state, builds will be offered on the Preview provider in preparation for it becoming the next Stable version, at which point BER will switch to early builds of 4.0. There's actually another level, not offered thru a provider, and that's Build from source for the more adventurous souls - and folks who want to dig deep into features (or bugs) and offer their own patches. I hope that answers your question. Let me know if you'd like more detail. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341781 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Dave Watts wrote: Why do you think it's absurd to think that open source engines will bring more people? Because it doesn't seem to have done so, so far. Because the niche in which CF is popular doesn't seem to care that much about open source or free. Because there are plenty of other open source engines in other languages, and people who care a lot about that seem to have mostly already moved to one of those. There must be a lot of hard data out there that I'm not privy to. :) As far as the niche, /things are changing/. Not that they're not constantly changing, but you have to see what I'm talking about. Open source software is not going to go away. Or maybe it will. Hell, who really knows what the future will bring? It /seems/ to be making more and more inroads, even though for years people predicted it wouldn't, and indeed, couldn't. Maybe it's all smoke and mirrors? It doesn't look that way to me, but I also think that we really *did* go to the moon. I'm not infallible. Those other open source engines aren't CFML. I believe there is a difference. But I'm a CFML fanboi. :) Do you think the only thing that makes a language worth something, is how much it costs? No. I'm not sure where you got that from my previous responses. The bit about it being absurd to think that open source might affect adoption. I What about my argument about one in the bush, vs. none in the bush? That's not an argument, it's speculation. It's not speculation, it's probability. One is more probable than the other. Anything is possible though, so... maybe it is speculation? And say Adobe did drop CF-- do you think that would spell the end of the language? Yeah, I do. I don't think that everyone would switch to comparatively unknown, new alternatives. If a big company like Adobe can't guarantee the future of CF, why would anyone think that these other people can? Because they have the right ingredients? Big companies fuck up all the time. I still don't get this magical power attributed to 'em. Success isn't about the size of the boat, it's about the motion of the ocean. Or something of similar sentiment. :)p :Den -- No man has any natural authority over his fellow men. Jean-Jacques Rousseau ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341782 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? [spamtrap bayes][spamtrap heur]
On 2/1/2011 12:46 PM, denstar wrote: First off, this portion of the discussion probably belongs on cf-community. then move it there. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341783 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? [spamtrap bayes][spamtrap heur]
No competitors plans are going to seem friendly towards each other, however there is no reason to go out of your way to be nasty and vindictive to anyone that uses or supports the competitors products and attack them at every opportunity, which is all some people seem to be interested in doing. Perhaps some people need to get a life. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341702 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? [spamtrap bayes][spamtrap heur]
Russ, people who are nasty and vindictive to anyone that uses or supports the competitors products and attack them at every opportunity is really strong language. If you're referring to anyone on the pro-Adobe side of the argument, who are they? If you don't want to name names, some links to list posts or blog entries/comments would be fine. If they're really doing this at every opportunity, I assume it should be easy to generate a partial list of these repeat offenders? I'm asking because I really have no idea who you think these people are. On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: No competitors plans are going to seem friendly towards each other, however there is no reason to go out of your way to be nasty and vindictive to anyone that uses or supports the competitors products and attack them at every opportunity, which is all some people seem to be interested in doing. Perhaps some people need to get a life. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341703 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Dave Watts wrote: I look at is as more of a break dancing crew scenario: We battle each other to push ourselves, so that we can go out there and form like Voltron when battling the other crews (PHP, .NET, etc.). It doesn't need to be contentious. Friendly competition is where it's at, yo. This is not how Adobe sees things, I'm sure. You're either using their product, or you're not. If you stop using ColdFusion, no one at Adobe is going to get warm fuzzies by thinking, well, at least they're still using CFML. I know some people at Adobe wouldn't get warm fuzzies, but the ones who pay attention to the long tail might. Look at Refynr. Aaron has a project there that has potential, which he started with Railo. He didn't have the cash for CF, but Railo allowed him to develop in his preferred language anyway. Adobe saw the potential, maybe noticed a bit of buzz, and donated some CF9 and CFB goodness. Now it's running on Adobe's engine, as that's what Aaron is most comfortable with. If Reyfner really takes off, that'd not only be good for CFML in general (us), it'd be good for Adobe, specifically. Or maybe not. Maybe none of that matters. I'm no marketing guru. Hell, they donated the engine, so no direct, up front money was made. Maybe they don't care about language recognition as a factor in engine sales. Or maybe they see a potential for future upgrades. It seems logical to me that, if one is using CFML, there's more of a chance for Adobe to be an engine running it, than if one is using, say, PHP. I dunno. Put another way, I expect that folks change vendors more often than they change platforms. Before alternate engines, the only option was another platform. I'll take one in the bush and none in the hand, if the other option is none in the bush or the hand, so to speak. If I were Adobe, I'd be super stoked that there were communities like the ones around Railo and OpenBD. But I'm also a CFML developer. :) As a CFML developer, I prefer the vendor switch over the platform switch. As an Adobe stockholder, I'd-- well, I'd feel the same. Because I feel that what's good for developers is good for the platform, but perhaps I'm naive. No, I *know* I'm naive. Perpetually so. So feel free to discount all of this. :) :Den -- I hate books; they only teach us to talk about what we don't know. Jean-Jacques Rousse ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341704 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? [spamtrap bayes][spamtrap heur]
On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 10:24 PM, Paul Hastings wrote: On 1/29/2011 1:26 PM, denstar wrote: Not /exactly/ infinitesimal, but it ain't no flood of newbs, neither. that sample size is more or less useless to base the rest of your arguments on. It was based on a percent. So I guess the real number would be 170 out of a 1000. I think. 17%? I suck at math. Still relatively useless, I reckon. It's all about perspective (or context?), even in math. Crazy as that sounds (I told ya I sucked at math). I don't know how much that has to do with the entrance of the open source engines as viable alternatives, but I feel it's factor. It was for me, anecdotal-y. technically i'd think that would actually be a flight of fancy seeing it's based on a sample of one taken as the sole factor in your shop staying w/cf. If the number had been 0, perhaps. I, however, am living proof of at least one, and unless the other folks were lying, there *are* more than I. The number of supported applications is a factor here too. I don't know if I'm an edge case, but I have lots of CFML powered crap. So long as it stays CFML, there's /at least the potential/ that ACF will once again be the engine powering said crap. If I switch to PHP, there is, IMHO, markedly less of a chance for Adobe to ever be the engine powering my crap. And let us not forget that a lot of pointy-headed-bosses *love* big corps like Adobe. Makes 'em feel warm fuzzies (even if the paid support is generally a lot more expensive and a lot less helpful). I attribute some of that to CFers realizing the *awesome* power of open source, but again, I think the engine alternatives have gone a long way towards helping as well. pretty much all my i18n stuff has been OS long before either BD or railo, has nothing whatsoever to do w/either. so in your anecdote based way of thinking, you are proven wrong ;-) OMG! Proof! ;-) I still wouldn't mind seeing the figures. Anecdotal-ish-ly, it seems like the number of OSS projects has exploded over the last couple years. CFML devs are no longer beholden to some commercial entity's well-being, which adds a *huge* bit of stability to the language that was just plain *not there* prior. seriously? Deadly seriously. =) Do most companies donate the source code to their users when they go out of business, in your experience? I don't know about top. Unless the target is the existing static community, which would seem a rather backwards plan, IMHO. adobe, like any product producer, has to maintain it's base customers. railo's not producing much (if any) new cf customers but is instead cannibalizing the I guess it's all relative. And maybe that 17% is a lie. Nobody likes free good stuff. ;)p existing market. it doesn't follow that adobe will be blowing sweet sweet kisses at railo. It's not about Adobe and Railo having a love-in and making babies ( FWIW, it's us devs bringing the drama). My point was, that not only would Adobe's base have shrunk, but the CFML base would have shrunk as well, had I left. If you only care about Adobe making money, then there is no real difference between the two. However, if you care about your fellow CFML coders putting food on the table, so to speak, then there is a pretty big difference between the two. It doesn't need to be contentious. Friendly competition is where it's at, yo. but you know that friendly competition is not true, even if you say don't care what railo's ultimate plan is. it doesn't seem friendly to me or will it seem very friendly to their existing customers if they do indeed succeed with their plan. I guess I'm just coming from a different perspective. I think that friendly competition is true, and can be one of the bestest forces for furtherance around. Open Source Software is a powerful, driving force in today's software world. That is no conspiracy, that's just math (although the boring way math is portrayed may itself be a conspiracy- but I digress). I am amazingly super happy that there are open source alternatives for CFML these days. I think it's tits for us developers, and tits for the language in general (a pair of tits, if you will). Perhaps I don't have my priorities in order. I would not be surprised one whit. I'm happy though, so, eh- screw it. To each their own! :Den -- I have resolved on an enterprise that has no precedent and will have no imitator. I want to set before my fellow human beings a man in every way true to nature; and that man will be myself. Jean-Jacques Rouss ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341705 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe:
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? [spamtrap bayes][spamtrap heur]
On 1/31/2011 11:02 AM, denstar wrote: It was based on a percent. So I guess the real number would be 170 out of a 1000. I think. 17%? I suck at math. you said 17 out of 100 people who replied to that survey. that's a useless sample size. Still relatively useless, I reckon. It's all about perspective (or 1000 is a bit better but still tiny compared to the community. If the number had been 0, perhaps. no, a sample of 1 is still not really worth mentioning besides the fact that it really can't be the only reason for the swap. once again be the engine powering said crap. If I switch to PHP, there is, IMHO, markedly less of a chance for Adobe to ever be the engine powering my crap. perhaps but it's hard to say exactly why a shop would swap technologies. sometimes its a stupid a reason as what some clown wrote in one of those tech rags like sys-con. And let us not forget that a lot of pointy-headed-bosses *love* big yes that's true but those same pointy-headed-bosses keep a lot of developers employed. I still wouldn't mind seeing the figures. Anecdotal-ish-ly, it seems like the number of OSS projects has exploded over the last couple years. perhaps but it's just as likely that there is now a place to put publicize those OS projects (you know, the one that adobe sponsors). as i said my OS stuff has nothing to do w/either of those. and let me also point out that most of ray-the-OS-engine's apps predate railo/BD going OS. i don't see any causal relationship. Deadly seriously. =) you claim that prior to BD/railo failing as commercial projects there was no stability in CF? geez that's a stretch. Do most companies donate the source code to their users when they go out of business, in your experience? no idea, though i guess that's exactly what BD railo did. I guess it's all relative. And maybe that 17% is a lie. Nobody likes free good stuff. ;)p i have a big bottle of wine laced w/rat poison which i will let you have free. it's certainly good wine except for the rat poison (though the rat poison is also pretty good rat poison). i guess you want that too? It's not about Adobe and Railo having a love-in and making babies ( FWIW, it's us devs bringing the drama). that's not true you know that's not true. My point was, that not only would Adobe's base have shrunk, but the CFML base would have shrunk as well, had I left. you're leaving might not have had anything to do w/cf being a commercial product (i don't know your business but i can't really see the cost of cf being much of a factor in developing s/w, even here in the 3rd world it's not all that much money relative to everything else involved). it could be that your shop wanted to adhere to an OS only principle which has nothing to do w/economics. If you only care about Adobe making money, then there is no real difference between the two. i care about adobe being around to support improve cf. they need profits to do that. However, if you care about your fellow CFML coders putting food on the table, so to speak, then there is a pretty big difference between the two. again i don't see that. dev s/w is free. deploying can be pretty cheap. if you're doing enterprise level of development then the cost of cf is pretty small. Open Source Software is a powerful, driving force in today's software nobody's doubting that but the cf market is different than PHP. they aren't eating their own intestines. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341706 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? [spamtrap bayes][spamtrap heur]
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 11:02 PM, denstar valliants...@gmail.com wrote: adobe, like any product producer, has to maintain it's base customers. railo's not producing much (if any) new cf customers but is instead cannibalizing the I guess it's all relative. And maybe that 17% is a lie. Nobody likes free good stuff. ;)p The problem there is that the question is a check box, multiple-selection question, not a single value. So people could have (and most likely did I suspect) select ALL of the languages they use. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341707 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
I look at is as more of a break dancing crew scenario: We battle each other to push ourselves, so that we can go out there and form like Voltron when battling the other crews (PHP, .NET, etc.). It doesn't need to be contentious. Friendly competition is where it's at, yo. This is not how Adobe sees things, I'm sure. You're either using their product, or you're not. If you stop using ColdFusion, no one at Adobe is going to get warm fuzzies by thinking, well, at least they're still using CFML. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsit ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341696 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? [spamtrap bayes][spamtrap heur]
On 1/29/2011 1:26 PM, denstar wrote: Not /exactly/ infinitesimal, but it ain't no flood of newbs, neither. that sample size is more or less useless to base the rest of your arguments on. I don't know how much that has to do with the entrance of the open source engines as viable alternatives, but I feel it's factor. It was for me, anecdotal-y. technically i'd think that would actually be a flight of fancy seeing it's based on a sample of one taken as the sole factor in your shop staying w/cf. I attribute some of that to CFers realizing the *awesome* power of open source, but again, I think the engine alternatives have gone a long way towards helping as well. pretty much all my i18n stuff has been OS long before either BD or railo, has nothing whatsoever to do w/either. so in your anecdote based way of thinking, you are proven wrong ;-) CFML devs are no longer beholden to some commercial entity's well-being, which adds a *huge* bit of stability to the language that was just plain *not there* prior. seriously? I don't know about top. Unless the target is the existing static community, which would seem a rather backwards plan, IMHO. adobe, like any product producer, has to maintain it's base customers. railo's not producing much (if any) new cf customers but is instead cannibalizing the existing market. it doesn't follow that adobe will be blowing sweet sweet kisses at railo. It doesn't need to be contentious. Friendly competition is where it's at, yo. but you know that friendly competition is not true, even if you say don't care what railo's ultimate plan is. it doesn't seem friendly to me or will it seem very friendly to their existing customers if they do indeed succeed with their plan. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341699 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
That information is still very limited and ambiguous though Brian. Adobe are only going to be aware of direct customers migrating to OSS or those who announce it on twitter or forums, they wont be aware of customers using shared hosting who don't own a cf license and are not in contact with adobe and do not use lists or groups. This is a very large proportion of the user base, probably the majority of it in fact. We have customers all the time moving their hosting because they rewrite the site in PHP, and this is usually just because they got a new developer who doesn't know/hates cf or because they wanted to save themselves some money by using Joomla, Wordpress, Drupal or some other super popular free OSS app that does everything they need out of the box. The move to Railo so far for our customers has only been so that they have run their own VPS without the CF license cost. Russ On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Brian Kotek brian...@gmail.com wrote: The reality is that Railo and Open BlueDragon are not growing the market for CFML. No one is *switching to* CFML from PHP, .NET, Ruby, or Java because of the OSS engines. To the extent that this might happen, it is an infinitesimally small number of projects. If any of the OSS engines have data to contradict that assertion, I'd love to see it. The OSS engines, particularly Railo, were initially touted as a gateway for people working on other platforms, which is why their partnership with JBoss created such hope and expectation. This has not happened. What *has* happened is that a small but noticeable number of existing ColdFusion users have moved to the OSS engines. As an Adobe Community Professional, I'm privy to more internal information and direct communication with the Adobe employees. The primary drain on the Adobe ColdFusion user base is people moving to one of the OSS CFML engines. Not people leaving for PHP or .NET. People do leave for other platforms, and new people do come in, but that just means that the total size of the CFML community as a whole is fairly static in size. And now that total pie is being divided between CF, Railo, and OBD. I personally like most of the individual people involved in the OSS projects. I've known many of them for years. So this is not personal at all. But if the biggest drain on the ColdFusion user base is coming from the OSS engines, then Adobe is absolutely right to treat them as their top competitors. To NOT do this would be foolish. If the OSS engines were actually pulling in droves of new users from other platforms, this whole dynamic would probably be much different. But that is simply not the case. Brian On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Larry Lyons larrycly...@gmail.com wrote: The point being FOSS complements and expands the market for CFML, and by extension Adobe. If anything Adobe should be promoting the FOSS engines as a low cost entry point. That is something it has been criticized about for years. Once the customer realizes how much more is available with the Adobe engine they will make that sale. Its a model that's been followed in quite a few successful operations, such as Zend with PHP and RedHat with Linux and JBoss. In both these cases having an open source entry point has not hurt their bottom line. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341638 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Brian Kotek wrote: The reality is that Railo and Open BlueDragon are not growing the market for CFML. No one is *switching to* CFML from PHP, .NET, Ruby, or Java because of the OSS engines. To the extent that this might happen, it is an infinitesimally small number of projects. If any of the OSS engines have data to contradict that assertion, I'd love to see it. Railo publishes stats rather regularly. Mailing list activity, survey results, etc.. I'm thinking they said that in 100 people who complete the survey on download, 17 say they're coming from other language. Not /exactly/ infinitesimal, but it ain't no flood of newbs, neither. I predict that this number will increase over time. Maybe even exponentially! The OSS engines, particularly Railo, were initially touted as a gateway for people working on other platforms, which is why their partnership with JBoss created such hope and expectation. This has not happened. What *has* I for one, was not expecting thousands of new converts within the this time-span. =) JBoss already had Seam, which is in a similar (but not as awesome) space. As the quality open source CFML applications mature, I think we'll see more converts. I have been *very* pleased with the number and quality of open source CFML projects hitting the streets in the last couple of years though. I don't know how much that has to do with the entrance of the open source engines as viable alternatives, but I feel it's factor. It was for me, anecdotal-y. I see the availability of quality open source CFML software as a forerunner to wider adoption. Maybe Ray can publish some numbers from RIAForge? I know Sean put some data out there, not too long ago, which painted a pretty picture of the transition from like 5 open source CFML projects to like 50 over the span of a year, or whathaveyou. I attribute some of that to CFers realizing the *awesome* power of open source, but again, I think the engine alternatives have gone a long way towards helping as well. CFML devs are no longer beholden to some commercial entity's well-being, which adds a *huge* bit of stability to the language that was just plain *not there* prior. happened is that a small but noticeable number of existing ColdFusion users have moved to the OSS engines. As an Adobe Community Professional, I'm privy to more internal information and direct communication with the Adobe employees. The primary drain on the Adobe ColdFusion user base is people moving to one of the OSS CFML engines. Not people leaving for PHP or .NET. People do leave for other platforms, and new people do come in, but that just means that the total size of the CFML community as a whole is fairly static in size. And now that total pie is being divided between CF, Railo, and OBD. Perhaps. Personally, I was about to ditch CFML. If it wasn't for the open source engines, I would have. I don't know how often my story is repeated with others, but I know I'm not alone. I don't think we would have been (if indeed we are) static in number without the open source alternatives. I personally like most of the individual people involved in the OSS projects. I've known many of them for years. So this is not personal at all. But if the biggest drain on the ColdFusion user base is coming from the OSS engines, then Adobe is absolutely right to treat them as their top competitors. To NOT do this would be foolish. If the OSS engines were actually pulling in droves of new users from other platforms, this whole dynamic would probably be much different. But that is simply not the case. I don't know about top. Unless the target is the existing static community, which would seem a rather backwards plan, IMHO. I look at is as more of a break dancing crew scenario: We battle each other to push ourselves, so that we can go out there and form like Voltron when battling the other crews (PHP, .NET, etc.). It doesn't need to be contentious. Friendly competition is where it's at, yo. Anyways, an open engine alone isn't going to pull in droves of people. We need that eye-candy (which, I'll add, I feel we're getting, in the form of quality open source applications) to rope 'em in. I dunno. I look at it from a CFML developer's perspective. If I had stock in Adobe, perhaps I'd see things differently... but I doubt it. For me, it's not about the engine, or sales, or popularity, even. It's about *us*. And open source CFML engines are *nothing* but good for us, as CFML devs, in my opinion. Somehow, I feel that makes it good for Adobe, too. But I could quite possibly be mad as the hatter. :) :Den -- God made me and broke the mold. Jean-Jacques Rousseau ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive:
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
The reality is that Railo and Open BlueDragon are not growing the market for CFML. No one is *switching to* CFML from PHP, .NET, Ruby, or Java because of the OSS engines. To the extent that this might happen, it is an infinitesimally small number of projects. If any of the OSS engines have data to contradict that assertion, I'd love to see it. The OSS engines, particularly Railo, were initially touted as a gateway for people working on other platforms, which is why their partnership with JBoss created such hope and expectation. This has not happened. What *has* happened is that a small but noticeable number of existing ColdFusion users have moved to the OSS engines. As an Adobe Community Professional, I'm privy to more internal information and direct communication with the Adobe employees. The primary drain on the Adobe ColdFusion user base is people moving to one of the OSS CFML engines. Not people leaving for PHP or .NET. People do leave for other platforms, and new people do come in, but that just means that the total size of the CFML community as a whole is fairly static in size. And now that total pie is being divided between CF, Railo, and OBD. I personally like most of the individual people involved in the OSS projects. I've known many of them for years. So this is not personal at all. But if the biggest drain on the ColdFusion user base is coming from the OSS engines, then Adobe is absolutely right to treat them as their top competitors. To NOT do this would be foolish. If the OSS engines were actually pulling in droves of new users from other platforms, this whole dynamic would probably be much different. But that is simply not the case. Brian On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Larry Lyons larrycly...@gmail.com wrote: The point being FOSS complements and expands the market for CFML, and by extension Adobe. If anything Adobe should be promoting the FOSS engines as a low cost entry point. That is something it has been criticized about for years. Once the customer realizes how much more is available with the Adobe engine they will make that sale. Its a model that's been followed in quite a few successful operations, such as Zend with PHP and RedHat with Linux and JBoss. In both these cases having an open source entry point has not hurt their bottom line. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341171 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Donna, I just wanted to follow up on my request to visit with your team. It sounds like you would provide an excellent perspective to ColdFusion upper management on how we need to evolve the business to meet modern government needs. Please let me know if we can schedule something for February. -Adam On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 6:33 AM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.comwrote: Donna, Oh, it's not so awkward for us at Adobe. As I mentioned before, we've seen increased adoption for ColdFusion in the public sector. Of course, I have a bit of a different perspective since I talk to so many different agencies and departments as part of my job. What agency do you work for? I'm scheduling some CF customer meetings in DC the week of Feb 21. One of my managers will be in town and I would like to expose him to some CFML shops that chose to migrate away form ColdFusion. I think getting your teams perspective would greatly help increase the quality (and business model) for ColdFusion. -Adam ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341122 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Well I think perspective makes a difference. Hopefully you can understand that I'm exposed to much more of the community than those on this list might be - especially the anti-Adobe sentiment. 3 years ago when I blogged about OpenBD, I was right to be skeptic given the history of New Atlanta. Back then I feared that this would cause a divide in our already small community, which it unfortunately has (whether you choose to believe it or not). If you need any evidence of the anti-CF comments, feel free to browse my blog comments. Some are quick to forget all that CF has done in the past and continues to do to support this community. I think some also forget that the ColdFusion team is made up of human beings with real feelings. We pour our hearts and energy into this product and community. Then along comes a few people who decide to build a near identical clone of ColdFusion. After several failed years of trying to compete with CF commercially, they give the product away through open source and market directly to ColdFusion customers. Suddenly they are heros and can do no wrong. How do you think this makes the _people_ behind CF feel? So yes, I am commonly guilty of letting my emotions get the better of me and I fight back when I should take the high road and ignore our critics. I'm human... and I'm proud of the work my team does. Whether the threat is PHP or Railo, I'm going to defend my product and my team. Which ever way you slice it, OpenBD/Railo are the direct competitors of ColdFusion. I know some wish that wasn't the case, but it that is the reality of the world we live in. The point of my message was to express unity with Russ's comments. However, Russ has a tendency to throw in jabs about Adobe's view on the open source competitors. As far as OpenCFML goes. It failed from a lack of contribution from Railo and OpenBD. The only thing I'm guilty of was being honest with community. -Adam On Jan 21, 2011 2:30 AM, Larry Lyons larrycly...@gmail.com wrote: Excuse me who has been very hostile to the open source community, for instance your recent comment on CFEclipse is a very good example. Or your comments about Open BlueDragon when it first started for another. And you cannot say its a defensive matter on your part. So when you start that sort of crap its hypocrisy on your part. If anything the Open Source community in CF is trying to grow the CF community. The only hostility I've really seen has been on YOUR part. The fact is that the availability of alternative open source engines deflates the often used argument against CF about it costing too much. Moreover the open source CF engines serve to get more into coldfusion. For instance 3 sites I've developed started off using Open BlueDragon. Later each one of those moved up to CF Standard. That is something that would not have happened without the open source CF engine. With your attitude towards the open source community, its serving to hurt further expansion of the CF community. That is detrimental to Adobe's bottom line in the long run. Russ, You're preaching to the choir... well except for that last part which is ridiculous. Th... to. The other reasons I hear :- Lack of decent developers (for companies that use contr... seen a shops close movement in will generation. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341078 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
I made no jab about Adobe's opinion on the open source community, I suggest you re-read my post and you will see that in fact I only mentioned Adobe Attitude as one of the reasons people have told me they did not stick with CF. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the open source community. I purposefully AVOIDED mentioning that to avoid you having a jab at me again, but I guess I failed. Russ On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.comwrote: Well I think perspective makes a difference. Hopefully you can understand that I'm exposed to much more of the community than those on this list might be - especially the anti-Adobe sentiment. 3 years ago when I blogged about OpenBD, I was right to be skeptic given the history of New Atlanta. Back then I feared that this would cause a divide in our already small community, which it unfortunately has (whether you choose to believe it or not). If you need any evidence of the anti-CF comments, feel free to browse my blog comments. Some are quick to forget all that CF has done in the past and continues to do to support this community. I think some also forget that the ColdFusion team is made up of human beings with real feelings. We pour our hearts and energy into this product and community. Then along comes a few people who decide to build a near identical clone of ColdFusion. After several failed years of trying to compete with CF commercially, they give the product away through open source and market directly to ColdFusion customers. Suddenly they are heros and can do no wrong. How do you think this makes the _people_ behind CF feel? So yes, I am commonly guilty of letting my emotions get the better of me and I fight back when I should take the high road and ignore our critics. I'm human... and I'm proud of the work my team does. Whether the threat is PHP or Railo, I'm going to defend my product and my team. Which ever way you slice it, OpenBD/Railo are the direct competitors of ColdFusion. I know some wish that wasn't the case, but it that is the reality of the world we live in. The point of my message was to express unity with Russ's comments. However, Russ has a tendency to throw in jabs about Adobe's view on the open source competitors. As far as OpenCFML goes. It failed from a lack of contribution from Railo and OpenBD. The only thing I'm guilty of was being honest with community. -Adam On Jan 21, 2011 2:30 AM, Larry Lyons larrycly...@gmail.com wrote: Excuse me who has been very hostile to the open source community, for instance your recent comment on CFEclipse is a very good example. Or your comments about Open BlueDragon when it first started for another. And you cannot say its a defensive matter on your part. So when you start that sort of crap its hypocrisy on your part. If anything the Open Source community in CF is trying to grow the CF community. The only hostility I've really seen has been on YOUR part. The fact is that the availability of alternative open source engines deflates the often used argument against CF about it costing too much. Moreover the open source CF engines serve to get more into coldfusion. For instance 3 sites I've developed started off using Open BlueDragon. Later each one of those moved up to CF Standard. That is something that would not have happened without the open source CF engine. With your attitude towards the open source community, its serving to hurt further expansion of the CF community. That is detrimental to Adobe's bottom line in the long run. Russ, You're preaching to the choir... well except for that last part which is ridiculous. Th... to. The other reasons I hear :- Lack of decent developers (for companies that use contr... seen a shops close movement in will generation. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341080 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
you're my boy blue! you know always have my support! Sent from my iPhone... Don't hate. On Jan 21, 2011, at 4:57 AM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.com wrote: Well I think perspective makes a difference. Hopefully you can understand that I'm exposed to much more of the community than those on this list might be - especially the anti-Adobe sentiment. 3 years ago when I blogged about OpenBD, I was right to be skeptic given the history of New Atlanta. Back then I feared that this would cause a divide in our already small community, which it unfortunately has (whether you choose to believe it or not). If you need any evidence of the anti-CF comments, feel free to browse my blog comments. Some are quick to forget all that CF has done in the past and continues to do to support this community. I think some also forget that the ColdFusion team is made up of human beings with real feelings. We pour our hearts and energy into this product and community. Then along comes a few people who decide to build a near identical clone of ColdFusion. After several failed years of trying to compete with CF commercially, they give the product away through open source and market directly to ColdFusion customers. Suddenly they are heros and can do no wrong. How do you think this makes the _people_ behind CF feel? So yes, I am commonly guilty of letting my emotions get the better of me and I fight back when I should take the high road and ignore our critics. I'm human... and I'm proud of the work my team does. Whether the threat is PHP or Railo, I'm going to defend my product and my team. Which ever way you slice it, OpenBD/Railo are the direct competitors of ColdFusion. I know some wish that wasn't the case, but it that is the reality of the world we live in. The point of my message was to express unity with Russ's comments. However, Russ has a tendency to throw in jabs about Adobe's view on the open source competitors. As far as OpenCFML goes. It failed from a lack of contribution from Railo and OpenBD. The only thing I'm guilty of was being honest with community. -Adam On Jan 21, 2011 2:30 AM, Larry Lyons larrycly...@gmail.com wrote: Excuse me who has been very hostile to the open source community, for instance your recent comment on CFEclipse is a very good example. Or your comments about Open BlueDragon when it first started for another. And you cannot say its a defensive matter on your part. So when you start that sort of crap its hypocrisy on your part. If anything the Open Source community in CF is trying to grow the CF community. The only hostility I've really seen has been on YOUR part. The fact is that the availability of alternative open source engines deflates the often used argument against CF about it costing too much. Moreover the open source CF engines serve to get more into coldfusion. For instance 3 sites I've developed started off using Open BlueDragon. Later each one of those moved up to CF Standard. That is something that would not have happened without the open source CF engine. With your attitude towards the open source community, its serving to hurt further expansion of the CF community. That is detrimental to Adobe's bottom line in the long run. Russ, You're preaching to the choir... well except for that last part which is ridiculous. Th... to. The other reasons I hear :- Lack of decent developers (for companies that use contr... seen a shops close movement in will generation. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341085 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Isn't that supposed to be little boy blue? -Original Message- From: Tony Weeg [mailto:tonyw...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 8:53 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? you're my boy blue! you know always have my support! Sent from my iPhone... Don't hate. On Jan 21, 2011, at 4:57 AM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.com wrote: Well I think perspective makes a difference. Hopefully you can understand that I'm exposed to much more of the community than those on this list might be - especially the anti-Adobe sentiment. 3 years ago when I blogged about OpenBD, I was right to be skeptic given the history of New Atlanta. Back then I feared that this would cause a divide in our already small community, which it unfortunately has (whether you choose to believe it or not). If you need any evidence of the anti-CF comments, feel free to browse my blog comments. Some are quick to forget all that CF has done in the past and continues to do to support this community. I think some also forget that the ColdFusion team is made up of human beings with real feelings. We pour our hearts and energy into this product and community. Then along comes a few people who decide to build a near identical clone of ColdFusion. After several failed years of trying to compete with CF commercially, they give the product away through open source and market directly to ColdFusion customers. Suddenly they are heros and can do no wrong. How do you think this makes the _people_ behind CF feel? So yes, I am commonly guilty of letting my emotions get the better of me and I fight back when I should take the high road and ignore our critics. I'm human... and I'm proud of the work my team does. Whether the threat is PHP or Railo, I'm going to defend my product and my team. Which ever way you slice it, OpenBD/Railo are the direct competitors of ColdFusion. I know some wish that wasn't the case, but it that is the reality of the world we live in. The point of my message was to express unity with Russ's comments. However, Russ has a tendency to throw in jabs about Adobe's view on the open source competitors. As far as OpenCFML goes. It failed from a lack of contribution from Railo and OpenBD. The only thing I'm guilty of was being honest with community. -Adam On Jan 21, 2011 2:30 AM, Larry Lyons larrycly...@gmail.com wrote: Excuse me who has been very hostile to the open source community, for instance your recent comment on CFEclipse is a very good example. Or your comments about Open BlueDragon when it first started for another. And you cannot say its a defensive matter on your part. So when you start that sort of crap its hypocrisy on your part. If anything the Open Source community in CF is trying to grow the CF community. The only hostility I've really seen has been on YOUR part. The fact is that the availability of alternative open source engines deflates the often used argument against CF about it costing too much. Moreover the open source CF engines serve to get more into coldfusion. For instance 3 sites I've developed started off using Open BlueDragon. Later each one of those moved up to CF Standard. That is something that would not have happened without the open source CF engine. With your attitude towards the open source community, its serving to hurt further expansion of the CF community. That is detrimental to Adobe's bottom line in the long run. Russ, You're preaching to the choir... well except for that last part which is ridiculous. Th... to. The other reasons I hear :- Lack of decent developers (for companies that use contr... seen a shops close movement in will generation. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341086 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
I'm going to be stepping back from this discussion. I believe my statement stands as it is. The last thing I will say is that you're wrong about the FOSS alternatives as direct competitors. AS I mentioned in my original posting I recently worked on 3 separate sites that started off using open source alternatives as the CFML engine. In each case after a year the owners wanted to expand the services and use features that were not available. While I could have spent quite a few hours working on a fix, it was faster and cheaper for the clients to step up to Adobe CF. The result was 3 sales that Adobe never would have had otherwise. The point being FOSS complements and expands the market for CFML, and by extension Adobe. If anything Adobe should be promoting the FOSS engines as a low cost entry point. That is something it has been criticized about for years. Once the customer realizes how much more is available with the Adobe engine they will make that sale. Its a model that's been followed in quite a few successful operations, such as Zend with PHP and RedHat with Linux and JBoss. In both these cases having an open source entry point has not hurt their bottom line. Well I think perspective makes a difference. Hopefully you can understand that I'm exposed to much more of the community than those on this list might be - especially the anti-Adobe sentiment. 3 years ago when I blogged about OpenBD, I was right to be skeptic given the history of New Atlanta. Back then I feared that this would cause a divide in our already small community, which it unfortunately has (whether you choose to believe it or not). If you need any evidence of the anti-CF comments, feel free to browse my blog comments. Some are quick to forget all that CF has done in the past and continues to do to support this community. I think some also forget that the ColdFusion team is made up of human beings with real feelings. We pour our hearts and energy into this product and community. Then along comes a few people who decide to build a near identical clone of ColdFusion. After several failed years of trying to compete with CF commercially, they give the product away through open source and market directly to ColdFusion customers. Suddenly they are heros and can do no wrong. How do you think this makes the _people_ behind CF feel? So yes, I am commonly guilty of letting my emotions get the better of me and I fight back when I should take the high road and ignore our critics. I'm human... and I'm proud of the work my team does. Whether the threat is PHP or Railo, I'm going to defend my product and my team. Which ever way you slice it, OpenBD/Railo are the direct competitors of ColdFusion. I know some wish that wasn't the case, but it that is the reality of the world we live in. The point of my message was to express unity with Russ's comments. However, Russ has a tendency to throw in jabs about Adobe's view on the open source competitors. As far as OpenCFML goes. It failed from a lack of contribution from Railo and OpenBD. The only thing I'm guilty of was being honest with community. -Adam On Jan 21, 2011 2:30 AM, Larry Lyons larrycly...@gmail.com wrote: Excuse me who has been very hostile to the open source community, for instance your recent comment on CFEclipse is a very good example. Or your comments about Open BlueDragon when it first started for another. And you cannot say its a defensive matter on your part. So when you start that sort of crap its hypocrisy on your part. If anything the Open Source community in CF is trying to grow the CF community. The only hostility I've really seen has been on YOUR part. The fact is that the availability of alternative open source engines deflates the often used argument against CF about it costing too much. Moreover the open source CF engines serve to get more into coldfusion. For instance 3 sites I've developed started off using Open BlueDragon. Later each one of those moved up to CF Standard. That is something that would not have happened without the open source CF engine. With your attitude towards the open source community, its serving to hurt further expansion of the CF community. That is detrimental to Adobe's bottom line in the long run. Russ, You're preaching to the choir... well except for that last part which is ridiculous. Th... ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341087 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Nope: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZTIsbsYmVE On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:03 AM, Mark A. Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.comwrote: Isn't that supposed to be little boy blue? -Original Message- From: Tony Weeg [mailto:tonyw...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 8:53 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? you're my boy blue! you know always have my support! Sent from my iPhone... Don't hate. On Jan 21, 2011, at 4:57 AM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.com wrote: Well I think perspective makes a difference. Hopefully you can understand that I'm exposed to much more of the community than those on this list might be - especially the anti-Adobe sentiment. 3 years ago when I blogged about OpenBD, I was right to be skeptic given the history of New Atlanta. Back then I feared that this would cause a divide in our already small community, which it unfortunately has (whether you choose to believe it or not). If you need any evidence of the anti-CF comments, feel free to browse my blog comments. Some are quick to forget all that CF has done in the past and continues to do to support this community. I think some also forget that the ColdFusion team is made up of human beings with real feelings. We pour our hearts and energy into this product and community. Then along comes a few people who decide to build a near identical clone of ColdFusion. After several failed years of trying to compete with CF commercially, they give the product away through open source and market directly to ColdFusion customers. Suddenly they are heros and can do no wrong. How do you think this makes the _people_ behind CF feel? So yes, I am commonly guilty of letting my emotions get the better of me and I fight back when I should take the high road and ignore our critics. I'm human... and I'm proud of the work my team does. Whether the threat is PHP or Railo, I'm going to defend my product and my team. Which ever way you slice it, OpenBD/Railo are the direct competitors of ColdFusion. I know some wish that wasn't the case, but it that is the reality of the world we live in. The point of my message was to express unity with Russ's comments. However, Russ has a tendency to throw in jabs about Adobe's view on the open source competitors. As far as OpenCFML goes. It failed from a lack of contribution from Railo and OpenBD. The only thing I'm guilty of was being honest with community. -Adam On Jan 21, 2011 2:30 AM, Larry Lyons larrycly...@gmail.com wrote: Excuse me who has been very hostile to the open source community, for instance your recent comment on CFEclipse is a very good example. Or your comments about Open BlueDragon when it first started for another. And you cannot say its a defensive matter on your part. So when you start that sort of crap its hypocrisy on your part. If anything the Open Source community in CF is trying to grow the CF community. The only hostility I've really seen has been on YOUR part. The fact is that the availability of alternative open source engines deflates the often used argument against CF about it costing too much. Moreover the open source CF engines serve to get more into coldfusion. For instance 3 sites I've developed started off using Open BlueDragon. Later each one of those moved up to CF Standard. That is something that would not have happened without the open source CF engine. With your attitude towards the open source community, its serving to hurt further expansion of the CF community. That is detrimental to Adobe's bottom line in the long run. Russ, You're preaching to the choir... well except for that last part which is ridiculous. Th... to. The other reasons I hear :- Lack of decent developers (for companies that use contr... seen a shops close movement in will generation. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341088 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Ah... another case where I'm out of step with popular culture. I am still reading books (the shame of it all). -Original Message- From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 9:15 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? Nope: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZTIsbsYmVE On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:03 AM, Mark A. Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.comwrote: Isn't that supposed to be little boy blue? -Original Message- From: Tony Weeg [mailto:tonyw...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 8:53 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? you're my boy blue! you know always have my support! Sent from my iPhone... Don't hate. On Jan 21, 2011, at 4:57 AM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.com wrote: ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341089 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
The last thing I will say is that you're wrong about the FOSS alternatives as direct competitors. AS I mentioned in my original posting I recently worked on 3 separate sites that started off using open source alternatives as the CFML engine. In each case after a year the owners wanted to expand the services and use features that were not available. While I could have spent quite a few hours working on a fix, it was faster and cheaper for the clients to step up to Adobe CF. The result was 3 sales that Adobe never would have had otherwise. The problem with anecdotal evidence is ... it's anecdotal. For those three conversions, how many cases exist where someone doesn't buy CF but continues to use an F/OSS solution instead? I don't know the answer to that question, but unless you do, and you know it's fewer than three, you can't really dispute Adam's claims. Just because they're similar products, and someone could switch from one to the other, doesn't mean they're not direct competitors. In fact, that's pretty much the textbook example of direct competition. I suspect that Adam is in a better position than most of us to identify purchasing trends and patterns for CF. At least, I'd hope so, since that's his job. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341092 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
SO... All of this is interesting conversation, but the initial question was is there any more information on this new conference? I've been trying to find a list of the 2011 conferences so I can plan to attend one. I have to schedule my vacation so I can attend my first conference. The only conference I saw any detail on was cfopen in Texas and I didn't find out about that until too late. Does anyone have a list of the CF Conferences this year? Thanks, Steve ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341093 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
CF.Objective() in Minneapolis is going to happen May 12-14 http://www.cfobjective.com/ Wil Genovese One man with courage makes a majority. -Andrew Jackson A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well. On Jan 21, 2011, at 11:34 AM, DURETTE, STEVEN J (ATTASIAIT) wrote: SO... All of this is interesting conversation, but the initial question was is there any more information on this new conference? I've been trying to find a list of the 2011 conferences so I can plan to attend one. I have to schedule my vacation so I can attend my first conference. The only conference I saw any detail on was cfopen in Texas and I didn't find out about that until too late. Does anyone have a list of the CF Conferences this year? Thanks, Steve ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341094 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 9:34 AM, DURETTE, STEVEN J (ATTASIAIT) sd1...@att.com wrote: The only conference I saw any detail on was cfopen in Texas and I didn't find out about that until too late. Since it hasn't happened yet, how is it too late? Does anyone have a list of the CF Conferences this year? OpenCF Summit - http://opencfsummit.org Scotch on the Rocks - http://sotr.eu or http://scotch-on-the-rocks.co.uk cf.Objective() - http://cfobjective.com D2WC - http://d2wc.com/ Adobe MAX (Unconference etc) - http://max.adobe.com/ I expect NCDevCon, BFusion, RIA Unleashed and cf.Objective(ANZ) will all happen again this year, just like last year. Basically, every conference that happened last year (and the year before and...) with the exception of CFUnited... and it sounds like Adam / Adobe knows about / is planning a DC-based event in August as well. See Charlie Arehart's awesome list as well: http://www.carehart.org/cf411/#cfconf -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341096 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Too late for me to schedule my travel plans, vacation, etc. Someone one my team already has that time off and one of us has to be available for emergencies. :( -Original Message- From: Sean Corfield [mailto:seancorfi...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 1:44 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 9:34 AM, DURETTE, STEVEN J (ATTASIAIT) sd1...@att.com wrote: The only conference I saw any detail on was cfopen in Texas and I didn't find out about that until too late. Since it hasn't happened yet, how is it too late? Does anyone have a list of the CF Conferences this year? OpenCF Summit - http://opencfsummit.org Scotch on the Rocks - http://sotr.eu or http://scotch-on-the-rocks.co.uk cf.Objective() - http://cfobjective.com D2WC - http://d2wc.com/ Adobe MAX (Unconference etc) - http://max.adobe.com/ I expect NCDevCon, BFusion, RIA Unleashed and cf.Objective(ANZ) will all happen again this year, just like last year. Basically, every conference that happened last year (and the year before and...) with the exception of CFUnited... and it sounds like Adam / Adobe knows about / is planning a DC-based event in August as well. See Charlie Arehart's awesome list as well: http://www.carehart.org/cf411/#cfconf -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341098 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
haha cf_thugs what what On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 8:52 AM, Tony Weeg tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: you're my boy blue! you know always have my support! Sent from my iPhone... Don't hate. On Jan 21, 2011, at 4:57 AM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.com wrote: Well I think perspective makes a difference. Hopefully you can understand that I'm exposed to much more of the community than those on this list might be - especially the anti-Adobe sentiment. 3 years ago when I blogged about OpenBD, I was right to be skeptic given the history of New Atlanta. Back then I feared that this would cause a divide in our already small community, which it unfortunately has (whether you choose to believe it or not). If you need any evidence of the anti-CF comments, feel free to browse my blog comments. Some are quick to forget all that CF has done in the past and continues to do to support this community. I think some also forget that the ColdFusion team is made up of human beings with real feelings. We pour our hearts and energy into this product and community. Then along comes a few people who decide to build a near identical clone of ColdFusion. After several failed years of trying to compete with CF commercially, they give the product away through open source and market directly to ColdFusion customers. Suddenly they are heros and can do no wrong. How do you think this makes the _people_ behind CF feel? So yes, I am commonly guilty of letting my emotions get the better of me and I fight back when I should take the high road and ignore our critics. I'm human... and I'm proud of the work my team does. Whether the threat is PHP or Railo, I'm going to defend my product and my team. Which ever way you slice it, OpenBD/Railo are the direct competitors of ColdFusion. I know some wish that wasn't the case, but it that is the reality of the world we live in. The point of my message was to express unity with Russ's comments. However, Russ has a tendency to throw in jabs about Adobe's view on the open source competitors. As far as OpenCFML goes. It failed from a lack of contribution from Railo and OpenBD. The only thing I'm guilty of was being honest with community. -Adam On Jan 21, 2011 2:30 AM, Larry Lyons larrycly...@gmail.com wrote: Excuse me who has been very hostile to the open source community, for instance your recent comment on CFEclipse is a very good example. Or your comments about Open BlueDragon when it first started for another. And you cannot say its a defensive matter on your part. So when you start that sort of crap its hypocrisy on your part. If anything the Open Source community in CF is trying to grow the CF community. The only hostility I've really seen has been on YOUR part. The fact is that the availability of alternative open source engines deflates the often used argument against CF about it costing too much. Moreover the open source CF engines serve to get more into coldfusion. For instance 3 sites I've developed started off using Open BlueDragon. Later each one of those moved up to CF Standard. That is something that would not have happened without the open source CF engine. With your attitude towards the open source community, its serving to hurt further expansion of the CF community. That is detrimental to Adobe's bottom line in the long run. Russ, You're preaching to the choir... well except for that last part which is ridiculous. Th... to. The other reasons I hear :- Lack of decent developers (for companies that use contr... seen a shops close movement in will generation. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341099 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Donna, Oh, it's not so awkward for us at Adobe. As I mentioned before, we've seen increased adoption for ColdFusion in the public sector. Of course, I have a bit of a different perspective since I talk to so many different agencies and departments as part of my job. What agency do you work for? I'm scheduling some CF customer meetings in DC the week of Feb 21. One of my managers will be in town and I would like to expose him to some CFML shops that chose to migrate away form ColdFusion. I think getting your teams perspective would greatly help increase the quality (and business model) for ColdFusion. -Adam On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com wrote: Yes I attended CFUnited twice and was very disappointed they had to close up shop. That's why I was asking about for an alternative at the top of the thread. I am definitely very interested in what's coming in August. What space should I watch, as I gather it hasn't been formally announced? For now I think we'll be going to the Open CF Summit in Dallas, for the emphasis on Open Source. I think you're completely wrong about open source being a small movement in federal government. In fact, I think that was one of Obama's first executive actions. Maybe it hasn't taken off yet, but everyone I know in USDA, Treasury, State and the contractor community is working furiously at slashing IT budgets by moving to OSS and cloud computing. I know this must be awkward for adobe, because I don't think anyone will paying traditional licensing for anything a year or two from now. I think the only money to be made is going to be in tooling and code generation. The language itself already does more than I'm ever going to need to do... Anyway please do share on this conference in august - my people would definitely attend! ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341038 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
I know this has been said before as we have had previous discussions with Adobe and have suggested this and they agreed it was a good idea and I know some others have done the same. And I understand this is even being trialled in Australia with some products (not CF). SPLA type licensing like Microsoft (or SAAS) would make ColdFusion much more affordable to all the non enterprise customers, and we have confirmed this with many of our own customers. The top reason we hear for customers migrating away from CF is the cost. I don't think this is entirely because of the cost of CF in general as most companies can come up with the cash for a single CF Std license, but the cost of ongoing upgrades or the cost to move to enterprise if they need to. The other reasons I hear :- Lack of decent developers (for companies that use contractors primarily) Lack of off the shelf or open source software (can't compete with PHP on that front) Attitude of the CF community (mainly caused by certain people being abusive to Railo/BD) Attitude of Adobe Russ On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.comwrote: Donna, Oh, it's not so awkward for us at Adobe. As I mentioned before, we've seen increased adoption for ColdFusion in the public sector. Of course, I have a bit of a different perspective since I talk to so many different agencies and departments as part of my job. What agency do you work for? I'm scheduling some CF customer meetings in DC the week of Feb 21. One of my managers will be in town and I would like to expose him to some CFML shops that chose to migrate away form ColdFusion. I think getting your teams perspective would greatly help increase the quality (and business model) for ColdFusion. -Adam On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com wrote: Yes I attended CFUnited twice and was very disappointed they had to close up shop. That's why I was asking about for an alternative at the top of the thread. I am definitely very interested in what's coming in August. What space should I watch, as I gather it hasn't been formally announced? For now I think we'll be going to the Open CF Summit in Dallas, for the emphasis on Open Source. I think you're completely wrong about open source being a small movement in federal government. In fact, I think that was one of Obama's first executive actions. Maybe it hasn't taken off yet, but everyone I know in USDA, Treasury, State and the contractor community is working furiously at slashing IT budgets by moving to OSS and cloud computing. I know this must be awkward for adobe, because I don't think anyone will paying traditional licensing for anything a year or two from now. I think the only money to be made is going to be in tooling and code generation. The language itself already does more than I'm ever going to need to do... Anyway please do share on this conference in august - my people would definitely attend! ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341049 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Russ, You're preaching to the choir... well except for that last part which is ridiculous. The open CF side of the community couldn't be more abusive towards Adobe. It's laughable to think that the community holding the OS vendors accountable would make someone leave CF. -Adam -- Sent from my open, capable and downright awesome Android-powered device that browses the _entire _ web! On Jan 20, 2011 10:17 PM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: I know this has been said before as we have had previous discussions with Adobe and have suggested this and they agreed it was a good idea and I know some others have done the same. And I understand this is even being trialled in Australia with some products (not CF). SPLA type licensing like Microsoft (or SAAS) would make ColdFusion much more affordable to all the non enterprise customers, and we have confirmed this with many of our own customers. The top reason we hear for customers migrating away from CF is the cost. I don't think this is entirely because of the cost of CF in general as most companies can come up with the cash for a single CF Std license, but the cost of ongoing upgrades or the cost to move to enterprise if they need to. The other reasons I hear :- Lack of decent developers (for companies that use contractors primarily) Lack of off the shelf or open source software (can't compete with PHP on that front) Attitude of the CF community (mainly caused by certain people being abusive to Railo/BD) Attitude of Adobe Russ On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.comwrote: Donna, Oh, it's not so awkward for us at Adobe. As I mentioned before, we've seen increased adoption for ColdFusion in the public sector. Of course, I have a bit of a different perspective since I talk to so many different agencies and departments as part of my job. What agency do you work for? I'm scheduling some CF customer meetings in DC the week of Feb 21. One of my managers will be in town and I would like to expose him to some CFML shops that chose to migrate away form ColdFusion. I think getting your teams perspective would greatly help increase the quality (and business model) for ColdFusion. -Adam On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com wrote: Yes I attended CFUnited twice and was very disappointed they had to close up shop. That's why I was asking about for an alternative at the top of the thread. I am definitely very interested in what's coming in August. What space should I watch, as I gather it hasn't been formally announced? For now I think we'll be going to the Open CF Summit in Dallas, for the emphasis on Open Source. I think you're completely wrong about open source being a small movement in federal government. In fact, I think that was one of Obama's first executive actions. Maybe it hasn't taken off yet, but everyone I know in USDA, Treasury, State and the contractor community is working furiously at slashing IT budgets by moving to OSS and cloud computing. I know this must be awkward for adobe, because I don't think anyone will paying traditional licensing for anything a year or two from now. I think the only money to be made is going to be in tooling and code generation. The language itself already does more than I'm ever going to need to do... Anyway please do share on this conference in august - my people would definitely attend! ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341063 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.com wrote: Russ, You're preaching to the choir... well except for that last part which is ridiculous. The open CF side of the community couldn't be more abusive towards Adobe. It's laughable to think that the community holding the OS vendors accountable would make someone leave CF. Wait a moment, Adam. Am I misreading you or are you saying that the open CF community is being abusive toward Adobe? Really? Not the other way around? I've seen what you guys did with the attempts at a CFML spec. And I've seen the Railo community be nothing but respectful toward Adobe. Same with the CFEclipse project. I'm not an OpenBD guy, so I'm not really familiar with what has gone down there. Maybe you are talking about the days of New Atlanta? If so, that wasn't open CF but yeah, there were some abusive things. Maybe this was just a badly phrased email but you seem like you are putting out a really irresponsible and baseless accusation and I'd like to get some clarification from you. Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341068 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Well it may be laughable or ridiculous but happens none the less. I don't think anyone is holding the vendor responsible for the behaviour of the community (unless those people worked for Adobe perhaps), certainly the people I have spoken to just want a community that will help them rather than be abusive to them and didn't want to get dragged into the arguments. PHP, ASP users will always slag off Coldfusion, ColdFusion users will always slag off PHP, ASP etc, but it has always been directed at the language rather than the person, but now it seems to be cfml developers attacking other cfml developers because of what engine they use. MADNESS Russ -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:adrocknapho...@gmail.com] Sent: 20 January 2011 21:35 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? Russ, You're preaching to the choir... well except for that last part which is ridiculous. The open CF side of the community couldn't be more abusive towards Adobe. It's laughable to think that the community holding the OS vendors accountable would make someone leave CF. -Adam -- Sent from my open, capable and downright awesome Android-powered device that browses the _entire _ web! On Jan 20, 2011 10:17 PM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: I know this has been said before as we have had previous discussions with Adobe and have suggested this and they agreed it was a good idea and I know some others have done the same. And I understand this is even being trialled in Australia with some products (not CF). SPLA type licensing like Microsoft (or SAAS) would make ColdFusion much more affordable to all the non enterprise customers, and we have confirmed this with many of our own customers. The top reason we hear for customers migrating away from CF is the cost. I don't think this is entirely because of the cost of CF in general as most companies can come up with the cash for a single CF Std license, but the cost of ongoing upgrades or the cost to move to enterprise if they need to. The other reasons I hear :- Lack of decent developers (for companies that use contractors primarily) Lack of off the shelf or open source software (can't compete with PHP on that front) Attitude of the CF community (mainly caused by certain people being abusive to Railo/BD) Attitude of Adobe Russ On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.comwrote: Donna, Oh, it's not so awkward for us at Adobe. As I mentioned before, we've seen increased adoption for ColdFusion in the public sector. Of course, I have a bit of a different perspective since I talk to so many different agencies and departments as part of my job. What agency do you work for? I'm scheduling some CF customer meetings in DC the week of Feb 21. One of my managers will be in town and I would like to expose him to some CFML shops that chose to migrate away form ColdFusion. I think getting your teams perspective would greatly help increase the quality (and business model) for ColdFusion. -Adam On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com wrote: Yes I attended CFUnited twice and was very disappointed they had to close up shop. That's why I was asking about for an alternative at the top of the thread. I am definitely very interested in what's coming in August. What space should I watch, as I gather it hasn't been formally announced? For now I think we'll be going to the Open CF Summit in Dallas, for the emphasis on Open Source. I think you're completely wrong about open source being a small movement in federal government. In fact, I think that was one of Obama's first executive actions. Maybe it hasn't taken off yet, but everyone I know in USDA, Treasury, State and the contractor community is working furiously at slashing IT budgets by moving to OSS and cloud computing. I know this must be awkward for adobe, because I don't think anyone will paying traditional licensing for anything a year or two from now. I think the only money to be made is going to be in tooling and code generation. The language itself already does more than I'm ever going to need to do... Anyway please do share on this conference in august - my people would definitely attend! ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341070 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Who has been abusive toward Adobe? I've seen some people question their commitment to the product because of a perceived lack of marketing muscle. And there was a big discussion about pricing on CFBuilder. Most of both of those discussions, however, came from Adobe CF license holders. The folks I've seen on the Railo lists and the CFEclipse lists tend to mostly ignore Adobe except in such instances where they need to discuss compatibility, language choices made by Adobe, etc. Go take a look at the archives of the lists for those groups and you'll see that almost none of the discussion has anything to do with Adobe, let alone be negative about them. Those groups are all about moving open source CFML offerings forward, not slagging off on Adobe. Judah On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Well it may be laughable or ridiculous but happens none the less. I don't think anyone is holding the vendor responsible for the behaviour of the community (unless those people worked for Adobe perhaps), certainly the people I have spoken to just want a community that will help them rather than be abusive to them and didn't want to get dragged into the arguments. PHP, ASP users will always slag off Coldfusion, ColdFusion users will always slag off PHP, ASP etc, but it has always been directed at the language rather than the person, but now it seems to be cfml developers attacking other cfml developers because of what engine they use. MADNESS Russ -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:adrocknapho...@gmail.com] Sent: 20 January 2011 21:35 To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? Russ, You're preaching to the choir... well except for that last part which is ridiculous. The open CF side of the community couldn't be more abusive towards Adobe. It's laughable to think that the community holding the OS vendors accountable would make someone leave CF. -Adam -- Sent from my open, capable and downright awesome Android-powered device that browses the _entire _ web! On Jan 20, 2011 10:17 PM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: I know this has been said before as we have had previous discussions with Adobe and have suggested this and they agreed it was a good idea and I know some others have done the same. And I understand this is even being trialled in Australia with some products (not CF). SPLA type licensing like Microsoft (or SAAS) would make ColdFusion much more affordable to all the non enterprise customers, and we have confirmed this with many of our own customers. The top reason we hear for customers migrating away from CF is the cost. I don't think this is entirely because of the cost of CF in general as most companies can come up with the cash for a single CF Std license, but the cost of ongoing upgrades or the cost to move to enterprise if they need to. The other reasons I hear :- Lack of decent developers (for companies that use contractors primarily) Lack of off the shelf or open source software (can't compete with PHP on that front) Attitude of the CF community (mainly caused by certain people being abusive to Railo/BD) Attitude of Adobe Russ On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Adrocknaphobia adrocknapho...@gmail.comwrote: Donna, Oh, it's not so awkward for us at Adobe. As I mentioned before, we've seen increased adoption for ColdFusion in the public sector. Of course, I have a bit of a different perspective since I talk to so many different agencies and departments as part of my job. What agency do you work for? I'm scheduling some CF customer meetings in DC the week of Feb 21. One of my managers will be in town and I would like to expose him to some CFML shops that chose to migrate away form ColdFusion. I think getting your teams perspective would greatly help increase the quality (and business model) for ColdFusion. -Adam On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com wrote: Yes I attended CFUnited twice and was very disappointed they had to close up shop. That's why I was asking about for an alternative at the top of the thread. I am definitely very interested in what's coming in August. What space should I watch, as I gather it hasn't been formally announced? For now I think we'll be going to the Open CF Summit in Dallas, for the emphasis on Open Source. I think you're completely wrong about open source being a small movement in federal government. In fact, I think that was one of Obama's first executive actions. Maybe it hasn't taken off yet, but everyone I know in USDA, Treasury, State and the contractor community is working furiously at slashing IT budgets by moving to OSS and cloud computing. I know this must be awkward for adobe, because I don't think anyone will paying traditional licensing for anything a year or two from now. I think the only money
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
But wouldn't it be somewhat fair to say that commercial vendors (in general) see a role for OSS while OSS people see little value in commercial products? Most avid OSS folks I know think that commercial products gum up the works... and yes, they are often full of vitriol about it on lists, blogs etc. No one get's their ire up quite like a geek who feels like he has the answers. Maybe I'm shielded but I don't see near the level of anti-OSS verbiage out there. Do you? -Mark -Original Message- From: Judah McAuley [mailto:ju...@wiredotter.com] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:53 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? Who has been abusive toward Adobe? I've seen some people question their commitment to the product because of a perceived lack of marketing muscle. And there was a big discussion about pricing on CFBuilder. Most of both of those discussions, however, came from Adobe CF license holders. The folks I've seen on the Railo lists and the CFEclipse lists tend to mostly ignore Adobe except in such instances where they need to discuss compatibility, language choices made by Adobe, etc. Go take a look at the archives of the lists for those groups and you'll see that almost none of the discussion has anything to do with Adobe, let alone be negative about them. Those groups are all about moving open source CFML offerings forward, not slagging off on Adobe. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341072 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
I've seen plenty of anti-commercial software vitriol out there in OSS communities but I haven't seen it in the open cfml community. I would say that many (probably most?) people who are participating in open source side of CF (Railo, CFEclipse, OpenBD, projects on RIAForge, etc) have been cfml developers long enough that they were developing when there were no alternatives other than the closed-source ColdFusion engine. I've been a cfml developer since the early days with Allaire (wearing an Allaire tshirt right now actually) and so I have no problems using a commercial, closed source product. I suspect that most other folks are in the same boat. That makes the community different than, say, apache, php, ruby on rails, etc who may have spent most of their development lives using F/OSS and have more of a fundamental philosophical approach. I've switched most of my development to Railo. Why? For a variety of reasons but primary one isn't that Adobe ColdFusion is not open source. I don't mind, at all, that they are a commercial company putting out commercial software. And, I'd say, the pricing is fairly reasonable, all in all. Instead, I find Railo to be a lot more responsive as a company, have better communication with the community and produce higher quality software that is more performant and better meets my needs as a developer. The fact that it is open source is a bonus and the other things that have come along with that (like the community provided extensions) are an appealing selling point as well. In other communities, I'd say that you might be right about OSS backers directing vitriol toward a commercial company, like Adobe, based on philosophy. I'd challenge you, however, to point to that sort of thing happening in the cfml community though. Cheers, Judah On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Mark A. Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.com wrote: But wouldn't it be somewhat fair to say that commercial vendors (in general) see a role for OSS while OSS people see little value in commercial products? Most avid OSS folks I know think that commercial products gum up the works... and yes, they are often full of vitriol about it on lists, blogs etc. No one get's their ire up quite like a geek who feels like he has the answers. Maybe I'm shielded but I don't see near the level of anti-OSS verbiage out there. Do you? -Mark ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341073 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Judah, Ok... you sold me. I buy that it's not a huge issue within the CFML community. -Mark Mark A. Kruger, MCSE, CFG (402) 408-3733 ext 105 Skype: markakruger www.cfwebtools.com www.coldfusionmuse.com www.necfug.com -Original Message- From: Judah McAuley [mailto:ju...@wiredotter.com] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:48 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? I've seen plenty of anti-commercial software vitriol out there in OSS communities but I haven't seen it in the open cfml community. I would say that many (probably most?) people who are participating in open source side of CF (Railo, CFEclipse, OpenBD, projects on RIAForge, etc) have been cfml developers long enough that they were developing when there were no alternatives other than the closed-source ColdFusion engine. I've been a cfml developer since the early days with Allaire (wearing an Allaire tshirt right now actually) and so I have no problems using a commercial, closed source product. I suspect that most other folks are in the same boat. That makes the community different than, say, apache, php, ruby on rails, etc who may have spent most of their development lives using F/OSS and have more of a fundamental philosophical approach. I've switched most of my development to Railo. Why? For a variety of reasons but primary one isn't that Adobe ColdFusion is not open source. I don't mind, at all, that they are a commercial company putting out commercial software. And, I'd say, the pricing is fairly reasonable, all in all. Instead, I find Railo to be a lot more responsive as a company, have better communication with the community and produce higher quality software that is more performant and better meets my needs as a developer. The fact that it is open source is a bonus and the other things that have come along with that (like the community provided extensions) are an appealing selling point as well. In other communities, I'd say that you might be right about OSS backers directing vitriol toward a commercial company, like Adobe, based on philosophy. I'd challenge you, however, to point to that sort of thing happening in the cfml community though. Cheers, Judah On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Mark A. Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.com wrote: But wouldn't it be somewhat fair to say that commercial vendors (in general) see a role for OSS while OSS people see little value in commercial products? Most avid OSS folks I know think that commercial products gum up the works... and yes, they are often full of vitriol about it on lists, blogs etc. No one get's their ire up quite like a geek who feels like he has the answers. Maybe I'm shielded but I don't see near the level of anti-OSS verbiage out there. Do you? -Mark ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341075 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Excuse me who has been very hostile to the open source community, for instance your recent comment on CFEclipse is a very good example. Or your comments about Open BlueDragon when it first started for another. And you cannot say its a defensive matter on your part. So when you start that sort of crap its hypocrisy on your part. If anything the Open Source community in CF is trying to grow the CF community. The only hostility I've really seen has been on YOUR part. The fact is that the availability of alternative open source engines deflates the often used argument against CF about it costing too much. Moreover the open source CF engines serve to get more into coldfusion. For instance 3 sites I've developed started off using Open BlueDragon. Later each one of those moved up to CF Standard. That is something that would not have happened without the open source CF engine. With your attitude towards the open source community, its serving to hurt further expansion of the CF community. That is detrimental to Adobe's bottom line in the long run. Russ, You're preaching to the choir... well except for that last part which is ridiculous. The open CF side of the community couldn't be more abusive towards Adobe. It's laughable to think that the community holding the OS vendors accountable would make someone leave CF. -Adam -- Sent from my open, capable and downright awesome Android-powered device that browses the _entire _ web! On Jan 20, 2011 10:17 PM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: I know this has been said before as we have had previous discussions with Adobe and have suggested this and they agreed it was a good idea and I know some others have done the same. And I understand this is even being trialled to. The other reasons I hear :- Lack of decent developers (for companies that use contractors primarily) Lack of off the shelf or open source software (can't compete with PHP on that front) Attitude of the CF community (mainly caused by certain people being abusive seen a shops close movement in will generation. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341076 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
New ColdFusion conference in DC in august?!?!?! Do tell! I'm trying to plan to attend my first CF Conference this year and it's been really hard trying to find out when they are going to happen. I found out about cf open summit, but I don't think I have enough time to plan for that. Thanks, Steve -Original Message- From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:adrocknapho...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 8:48 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? FWIW. ColdFusion has been growing rapidly in the public sector the past few quarters. While I won't disagree that some organizations may be shifting to open source technologies, I would argue that it's far from the majority. For CF specifically, I think the expanding ColdFusion job market in Washington, DC is a strong indicator of that. Donna, did you ever attend CFUnited (the flagship ColdFusion conference located in the DC area)? You might also be happy to know that there will likely be a new ColdFusion conference in the DC area this August. -Adam Ex-government contractor Long-time DC metro resident Product Manager for ColdFusion at Adobe On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com wrote: Thanks for all the responses. AJ thanks for the cfhour link - I actually didn't even know about that podcast. Thanks Roger, I'll look at NCDevCon Derek - yeah you are totally correct: one CIO and management in all the agencies we contract with are talking more and more about slashing it budgets. I think we're probably a little ahead of the curve though: we moved to http://OpenBlueDragon.org/ a year ago and I think our only licensing costs are now for sql server, which we'll probably be dumping soon. Most of our agencies are also moving rapidly to cloud computing, for which I understand bluedragon is particularly well suited. Anyway I agree we need a conference like this in the d.c. area. thanks -Donna Bing From: Roger Austin raust...@nc.rr.com To: cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Cc: Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com Sent: Tue, January 18, 2011 8:38:17 AM Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com wrote: Ever since CFUnited closed up shop, I've been looking around for an affordable substitute. I'm local in the Northern Virginia area, so I saved on lodging and travel. That conference looks like it would be fun, but I have limited funds for those sorts of things so I won't be there. That conference is oriented to open source CFML which is an interesting idea. I tend to look first for things in my area of North Carolina (Research Triangle Park) which is rich in meetups and different local conferences. You may want to look into NCDevCon which has been free in the past and is located within driving distance from NoVa. It has been a two day conference that had nationally known presenters, many who used it as a test for their CFUnited talks. We had a number of visitors from up there so you could always plan to carpool with other NoVa folks. Talk with attendees from CFinNC in 2009 and NCDevCon in 2010 to get the lowdown on it. I can not be an unbiased source as a member of the host organization TACFUG. No date has been set for NCDevCon 2011 assuming it is held. There will be plenty of publicity including messages here if and when something happens. -- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-austin/8/a4/60 Twitter: http://twitter.com/RogerTheGeek Blog:http://rogerthegeek.wordpress.com/ http://www.misshunt.com/ Home of the Clean/Dirty Magnet ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341022 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Yes I attended CFUnited twice and was very disappointed they had to close up shop. That's why I was asking about for an alternative at the top of the thread. I am definitely very interested in what's coming in August. What space should I watch, as I gather it hasn't been formally announced? For now I think we'll be going to the Open CF Summit in Dallas, for the emphasis on Open Source. I think you're completely wrong about open source being a small movement in federal government. In fact, I think that was one of Obama's first executive actions. Maybe it hasn't taken off yet, but everyone I know in USDA, Treasury, State and the contractor community is working furiously at slashing IT budgets by moving to OSS and cloud computing. I know this must be awkward for adobe, because I don't think anyone will paying traditional licensing for anything a year or two from now. I think the only money to be made is going to be in tooling and code generation. The language itself already does more than I'm ever going to need to do... Anyway please do share on this conference in august - my people would definitely attend! ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341024 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
What CF Conference this August? Donna, did you ever attend CFUnited (the flagship ColdFusion conference located in the DC area)? You might also be happy to know that there will likely be a new ColdFusion conference in the DC area this August. -Adam Ex-government contractor Long-time DC metro resident Product Manager for ColdFusion at Adobe ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341025 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
I think Adam just leaked a little secret news Hmmm Sounds like some inside secret plans for a new conference are under way. They would have to be well underway in order to do it by August. Wil Genovese Owner/Sr. Web Application Developer/ Systems Administrator Trunkful Technologies, inc. wilg...@trunkful.com www.trunkful.com On Jan 19, 2011, at 10:57 AM, Larry Lyons wrote: What CF Conference this August? Donna, did you ever attend CFUnited (the flagship ColdFusion conference located in the DC area)? You might also be happy to know that there will likely be a new ColdFusion conference in the DC area this August. -Adam Ex-government contractor Long-time DC metro resident Product Manager for ColdFusion at Adobe ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341028 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com wrote: I think you're completely wrong about open source being a small movement in federal government. In fact, I think that was one of Obama's first executive actions. Maybe it hasn't taken off yet, but everyone I know in USDA, Treasury, State and the contractor community is working furiously at slashing IT budgets by moving to OSS and cloud computing. I know this must be awkward for adobe, because I don't think anyone will paying traditional licensing for anything a year or two from now. I think the only money to be made is going to be in tooling and code generation. The language itself already does more than I'm ever going to need to do... Interesting to hear an alternative viewpoint to what came up in the recent thread I started about the Washington Post announcement that the 520 House sites were moving to Drupal: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:62471 In that thread, the general feeling seemed to be that the move to Drupal was an isolated event and Dave Watts in particular seemed very bullish about ColdFusion's position within federal government agencies. See you at the OpenCF Summit! -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret At ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341031 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Ever since CFUnited closed up shop, I've been looking around for an affordable substitute. I'm local in the Northern Virginia area, so I saved on lodging and travel. I saw something on Sean Corfield's blog about this new conference in Dallas and, while I'd have to pay travel and lodging, the conference is apparently only $30?!?!?! They have a pretty funny video: http://blog.opencfsummit.org/ Just wondering what folks thought about it. The schedule seems to have a lot of substance. And hard to argue with $30. But then again, $30?!?! Is is for real? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:340950 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
I think it's the first time this conference has been run. I've signed up. Just need to make my lodging and plane reservations. And yeah, it's for-real -- the organizers are well-respected in the community and are focused on the open-source arena, and that's what this conference is about. Cheers, Kris Ever since CFUnited closed up shop, I've been looking around for an affordable substitute. I'm local in the Northern Virginia area, so I saved on lodging and travel. I saw something on Sean Corfield's blog about this new conference in Dallas and, while I'd have to pay travel and lodging, the conference is apparently only $30?!?!?! They have a pretty funny video: http://blog.opencfsummit.org/ Just wondering what folks thought about it. The schedule seems to have a lot of substance. And hard to argue with $30. But then again, $30?!?! Is is for real? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:340953 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Hi Donna, Yeah http://OpenCFSummit.org is the real thing. And yeah that video is pretty funny. My boss and I are trying to get her management to ok sending our whole team, because there's pressure from other programming departments to move to Drupal and PHP, but we're keen to go with the Mura content management system and stick with cfml. Sounds like you're probably like me: a ColdFusion contractor or gov worker in the Washington area, which means you are starting to feel the impact of budget cuts and President Obama's push to move government towards open source software. As far as I know, this conference is biggest champion of this trend - and I'm going to lobby them heavily to bring the show to Washington next year. -Derek Lussier Ever since CFUnited closed up shop, I've been looking around for an affordable substitute. I'm local in the Northern Virginia area, so I saved on lodging and travel. I saw something on Sean Corfield's blog about this new conference in Dallas and, while I'd have to pay travel and lodging, the conference is apparently only $30?!?!?! They have a pretty funny video: http://blog.opencfsummit.org/ Just wondering what folks thought about it. The schedule seems to have a lot of substance. And hard to argue with $30. But then again, $30?!?! Is is for real? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:340954 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
you can hear about it on cfHour http://cfhour.com/post.cfm/show-83-opencf-summit-interview http://cfhour.com/post.cfm/show-83-opencf-summit-interview On 18 January 2011 20:36, Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com wrote: Ever since CFUnited closed up shop, I've been looking around for an affordable substitute. I'm local in the Northern Virginia area, so I saved on lodging and travel. I saw something on Sean Corfield's blog about this new conference in Dallas and, while I'd have to pay travel and lodging, the conference is apparently only $30?!?!?! They have a pretty funny video: http://blog.opencfsummit.org/ Just wondering what folks thought about it. The schedule seems to have a lot of substance. And hard to argue with $30. But then again, $30?!?! Is is for real? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:340955 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com wrote: Ever since CFUnited closed up shop, I've been looking around for an affordable substitute. I'm local in the Northern Virginia area, so I saved on lodging and travel. That conference looks like it would be fun, but I have limited funds for those sorts of things so I won't be there. That conference is oriented to open source CFML which is an interesting idea. I tend to look first for things in my area of North Carolina (Research Triangle Park) which is rich in meetups and different local conferences. You may want to look into NCDevCon which has been free in the past and is located within driving distance from NoVa. It has been a two day conference that had nationally known presenters, many who used it as a test for their CFUnited talks. We had a number of visitors from up there so you could always plan to carpool with other NoVa folks. Talk with attendees from CFinNC in 2009 and NCDevCon in 2010 to get the lowdown on it. I can not be an unbiased source as a member of the host organization TACFUG. No date has been set for NCDevCon 2011 assuming it is held. There will be plenty of publicity including messages here if and when something happens. -- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-austin/8/a4/60 Twitter: http://twitter.com/RogerTheGeek Blog: http://rogerthegeek.wordpress.com/ http://www.misshunt.com/ Home of the Clean/Dirty Magnet ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:340957 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
Thanks for all the responses. AJ thanks for the cfhour link - I actually didn't even know about that podcast. Thanks Roger, I'll look at NCDevCon Derek - yeah you are totally correct: one CIO and management in all the agencies we contract with are talking more and more about slashing it budgets. I think we're probably a little ahead of the curve though: we moved to http://OpenBlueDragon.org/ a year ago and I think our only licensing costs are now for sql server, which we'll probably be dumping soon. Most of our agencies are also moving rapidly to cloud computing, for which I understand bluedragon is particularly well suited. Anyway I agree we need a conference like this in the d.c. area. thanks -Donna Bing From: Roger Austin raust...@nc.rr.com To: cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Cc: Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com Sent: Tue, January 18, 2011 8:38:17 AM Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com wrote: Ever since CFUnited closed up shop, I've been looking around for an affordable substitute. I'm local in the Northern Virginia area, so I saved on lodging and travel. That conference looks like it would be fun, but I have limited funds for those sorts of things so I won't be there. That conference is oriented to open source CFML which is an interesting idea. I tend to look first for things in my area of North Carolina (Research Triangle Park) which is rich in meetups and different local conferences. You may want to look into NCDevCon which has been free in the past and is located within driving distance from NoVa. It has been a two day conference that had nationally known presenters, many who used it as a test for their CFUnited talks. We had a number of visitors from up there so you could always plan to carpool with other NoVa folks. Talk with attendees from CFinNC in 2009 and NCDevCon in 2010 to get the lowdown on it. I can not be an unbiased source as a member of the host organization TACFUG. No date has been set for NCDevCon 2011 assuming it is held. There will be plenty of publicity including messages here if and when something happens. -- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-austin/8/a4/60 Twitter: http://twitter.com/RogerTheGeek Blog:http://rogerthegeek.wordpress.com/ http://www.misshunt.com/ Home of the Clean/Dirty Magnet ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:340960 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference?
FWIW. ColdFusion has been growing rapidly in the public sector the past few quarters. While I won't disagree that some organizations may be shifting to open source technologies, I would argue that it's far from the majority. For CF specifically, I think the expanding ColdFusion job market in Washington, DC is a strong indicator of that. Donna, did you ever attend CFUnited (the flagship ColdFusion conference located in the DC area)? You might also be happy to know that there will likely be a new ColdFusion conference in the DC area this August. -Adam Ex-government contractor Long-time DC metro resident Product Manager for ColdFusion at Adobe On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com wrote: Thanks for all the responses. AJ thanks for the cfhour link - I actually didn't even know about that podcast. Thanks Roger, I'll look at NCDevCon Derek - yeah you are totally correct: one CIO and management in all the agencies we contract with are talking more and more about slashing it budgets. I think we're probably a little ahead of the curve though: we moved to http://OpenBlueDragon.org/ a year ago and I think our only licensing costs are now for sql server, which we'll probably be dumping soon. Most of our agencies are also moving rapidly to cloud computing, for which I understand bluedragon is particularly well suited. Anyway I agree we need a conference like this in the d.c. area. thanks -Donna Bing From: Roger Austin raust...@nc.rr.com To: cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Cc: Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com Sent: Tue, January 18, 2011 8:38:17 AM Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about this new ColdFusion conference? Donna Bing bingdo...@ymail.com wrote: Ever since CFUnited closed up shop, I've been looking around for an affordable substitute. I'm local in the Northern Virginia area, so I saved on lodging and travel. That conference looks like it would be fun, but I have limited funds for those sorts of things so I won't be there. That conference is oriented to open source CFML which is an interesting idea. I tend to look first for things in my area of North Carolina (Research Triangle Park) which is rich in meetups and different local conferences. You may want to look into NCDevCon which has been free in the past and is located within driving distance from NoVa. It has been a two day conference that had nationally known presenters, many who used it as a test for their CFUnited talks. We had a number of visitors from up there so you could always plan to carpool with other NoVa folks. Talk with attendees from CFinNC in 2009 and NCDevCon in 2010 to get the lowdown on it. I can not be an unbiased source as a member of the host organization TACFUG. No date has been set for NCDevCon 2011 assuming it is held. There will be plenty of publicity including messages here if and when something happens. -- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-austin/8/a4/60 Twitter: http://twitter.com/RogerTheGeek Blog:http://rogerthegeek.wordpress.com/ http://www.misshunt.com/ Home of the Clean/Dirty Magnet ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341015 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
