Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

Well a business rule is "it takes money to make money"

So what are the options? If they don't give it away then they will continue to 
go with php in which case they get no sale, no exposure and further distance 
themselfs from those potential customers and basically help keep php afloat and 
push cfm out that particular market. Or they can give it away and it's not like 
they are loosing money, maybe keep it with whatever packages they sell to these 
schools for Photoshop and such.  And get more ppl into using cfml which in turn 
will sell more licences and get cfm back in the big market which means more 
$$'s.

I'm sure it can keep itself afloat, if they don't get greedy.





~Dave the disruptor~ 

 Original Message 
> From: Rick Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 12:28 PM
> To: CF-Talk 
> Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
> 
> Dave (the disruptor),
>  Today a student writes a program on his own machine and then when he's done 
> uploads it to the class server. So with the free development edition the 
> students are covered. The students are then jjudged on how their program 
> runs on the class server and their project can be accessed by all members of 
> the class.
>  The question is how does Adobe/Macromedia give away a free copy of an 
> unrestricted version of CF for the class server without hurting business 
> sales at the college?
>  That's the first challenge and the next one is how do you get college 
> departments to change? Right now I believe Macromedia educational sales reps 
> handle it. I think you need an educational evangelist whose sole focus is 
> based on how many schools add CF to the curriculum.
>  I think that with Adobe taking over it's time to take a fresh look at 
> promoting CF in the colleges.
>   Rick Mason
>  
> 
>  On 5/5/05, dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> > 
> > Rick,
> > There are some amazing things this merger could very well produce so long 
> > as they work the products together the same way MM has done so, there could 
> > be some big time power added to cfm. Another thing I would like to see is a 
> > small footprint version of cfm server that would be run in the os to power 
> > desktop apps and ria's, much the same as shorthorn says it will do, I know 
> > there are a few ones that will do this but I'd rather have one from the 
> > source.
> > 
> > I'm assuming this merger is a direct shot at the throat of M$ and now they 
> > will have more leverage to start the dismantling of the giant.
> > And I know some will say that will never happen so long as windows keeps 
> > going which is something Adobe doesn't have but then again Adobe has 
> > something M$ will never have and thats the image design market. And the 
> > thing is other companies are going after the os and browser market and 
> > really no one is going after the photoshop market.
> > 
> > Especially if apple doesnt mess up the marketting of this OS X but its 
> > growing, the younger generation is firmly entrenching itself in macs 
> > (except 
> > the hardcore gamers) and the ipod has become a staple of their generation. 
> > So the time is right for Adobe to make a run, lets hope they do it right.
> > 
> > ~Dave the disruptor~
> > 
> > 
> > From: Rick Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:39 PM
> > To: CF-Talk 
> > Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
> > 
> > Dave,
> > *I hope one of the things Adobe does with cfm is to license its use in
> > schools and such for free and use its deep photoshop roots to entrench it 
> > in
> > a lot of these "designer" programs.
> > *
> > That's one of the things that I have campaigned on for the longest time. 
> > All
> > the Michigan colleges and universities use CF for the business side. But
> > only one uses it on the teaching side.
> > The first language a lot of these kids learn is PHP, I think all will 
> > agree
> > that CFML is a much better choice. Guess what the marketing budget for 
> > this
> > favored position might be? How about zero, so even a slight effort could
> > displace it.
> > These students may learn C# or java later but they will end up doing their
> > personal sites with CF. What do you want to bet that when they end up out 
> > in
> > the world and want a chance to shine under a tight deadline and/or budget
> > they will remember CF?
> > I continue to believe it's a great opportunity that's being missed.

Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Jared Rypka-Hauer - CMG, LLC]

But my doctor gave me that lotion... he said it would be working already!!


Oh well...

J


On 5/6/05, Ewok <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I think what you are saying is wrong and is a blatant attempt to demean or
> upset me!
> 
> :p
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! Let's play a game... Next person who posts to this thread has 
> cooties!!
> 



-- 
---
-
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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Matt Osbun]

  I can't resist...  Haven't had a good case of cooties since the third
grade.  ;)

Matt Osbun
Web Developer
Health Systems, International


-Original Message-
From: Ewok [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:33 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?




I think what you are saying is wrong and is a blatant attempt to demean
or
upset me! 

:p



Hey! Let's play a game... Next person who posts to this thread has
cooties!!


-Original Message-
From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:52 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

Nofi, but could we end this useless discussion? Some people keep whining
/ overreacting about the smallest things on and on. People sometimes say
things that are wrong, it happens, move on, smile and continue the
discussion. 
 
And for those who think "mwuahaha, obvious reply coming ... " yes me too
;) 

Micha Schopman
Project Manager

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380



-
Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren
de interactie met uw doelgroep. 
Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer
informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl 


-
-Original Message-
From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: vrijdag 6 mei 2005 15:32
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

It's not big deal. I didn't mind his comments at all. I was definitely
asking for it with my smart-ass 'this in not your blog' post. So yeah,
no harm, no foul.

-Adam

On 5/5/05, Sean Corfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 5/5/05, Alex Sherwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack.
> 
> Sure it was. It was crude, insulting and completely inappropriate to
> this list (or indeed any list that is supposed to be a professional
> technical list).
> 
> Your continued "rants" and unpleasantness merely show most of us that
> you belong on a DNH list...
> --
> Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/
> Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/
> Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away!
> 
> "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
> -- Margaret Atwood
> 
> 







~|
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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Rick Mason]

Dave (the disruptor),
 Today a student writes a program on his own machine and then when he's done 
uploads it to the class server. So with the free development edition the 
students are covered. The students are then jjudged on how their program 
runs on the class server and their project can be accessed by all members of 
the class.
 The question is how does Adobe/Macromedia give away a free copy of an 
unrestricted version of CF for the class server without hurting business 
sales at the college?
 That's the first challenge and the next one is how do you get college 
departments to change? Right now I believe Macromedia educational sales reps 
handle it. I think you need an educational evangelist whose sole focus is 
based on how many schools add CF to the curriculum.
 I think that with Adobe taking over it's time to take a fresh look at 
promoting CF in the colleges.
  Rick Mason
 

 On 5/5/05, dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> Rick,
> There are some amazing things this merger could very well produce so long 
> as they work the products together the same way MM has done so, there could 
> be some big time power added to cfm. Another thing I would like to see is a 
> small footprint version of cfm server that would be run in the os to power 
> desktop apps and ria's, much the same as shorthorn says it will do, I know 
> there are a few ones that will do this but I'd rather have one from the 
> source.
> 
> I'm assuming this merger is a direct shot at the throat of M$ and now they 
> will have more leverage to start the dismantling of the giant.
> And I know some will say that will never happen so long as windows keeps 
> going which is something Adobe doesn't have but then again Adobe has 
> something M$ will never have and thats the image design market. And the 
> thing is other companies are going after the os and browser market and 
> really no one is going after the photoshop market.
> 
> Especially if apple doesnt mess up the marketting of this OS X but its 
> growing, the younger generation is firmly entrenching itself in macs (except 
> the hardcore gamers) and the ipod has become a staple of their generation. 
> So the time is right for Adobe to make a run, lets hope they do it right.
> 
> ~Dave the disruptor~
> 
> ----
> From: Rick Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:39 PM
> To: CF-Talk 
> Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
> 
> Dave,
> *I hope one of the things Adobe does with cfm is to license its use in
> schools and such for free and use its deep photoshop roots to entrench it 
> in
> a lot of these "designer" programs.
> *
> That's one of the things that I have campaigned on for the longest time. 
> All
> the Michigan colleges and universities use CF for the business side. But
> only one uses it on the teaching side.
> The first language a lot of these kids learn is PHP, I think all will 
> agree
> that CFML is a much better choice. Guess what the marketing budget for 
> this
> favored position might be? How about zero, so even a slight effort could
> displace it.
> These students may learn C# or java later but they will end up doing their
> personal sites with CF. What do you want to bet that when they end up out 
> in
> the world and want a chance to shine under a tight deadline and/or budget
> they will remember CF?
> I continue to believe it's a great opportunity that's being missed.
> Rick Mason
> 
> 

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Ewok]

I think what you are saying is wrong and is a blatant attempt to demean or
upset me! 

:p



Hey! Let's play a game... Next person who posts to this thread has cooties!!


-Original Message-
From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:52 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

Nofi, but could we end this useless discussion? Some people keep whining
/ overreacting about the smallest things on and on. People sometimes say
things that are wrong, it happens, move on, smile and continue the
discussion. 
 
And for those who think "mwuahaha, obvious reply coming ... " yes me too
;) 

Micha Schopman
Project Manager

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380



-
Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren
de interactie met uw doelgroep. 
Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer
informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl 


-
-Original Message-
From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: vrijdag 6 mei 2005 15:32
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

It's not big deal. I didn't mind his comments at all. I was definitely
asking for it with my smart-ass 'this in not your blog' post. So yeah,
no harm, no foul.

-Adam

On 5/5/05, Sean Corfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 5/5/05, Alex Sherwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack.
> 
> Sure it was. It was crude, insulting and completely inappropriate to
> this list (or indeed any list that is supposed to be a professional
> technical list).
> 
> Your continued "rants" and unpleasantness merely show most of us that
> you belong on a DNH list...
> --
> Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/
> Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/
> Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away!
> 
> "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
> -- Margaret Atwood
> 
> 





~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Micha Schopman]

Nofi, but could we end this useless discussion? Some people keep whining
/ overreacting about the smallest things on and on. People sometimes say
things that are wrong, it happens, move on, smile and continue the
discussion. 
 
And for those who think "mwuahaha, obvious reply coming ... " yes me too
;) 

Micha Schopman
Project Manager

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380



-
Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren
de interactie met uw doelgroep. 
Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer
informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl 


-
-Original Message-
From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: vrijdag 6 mei 2005 15:32
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

It's not big deal. I didn't mind his comments at all. I was definitely
asking for it with my smart-ass 'this in not your blog' post. So yeah,
no harm, no foul.

-Adam

On 5/5/05, Sean Corfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 5/5/05, Alex Sherwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack.
> 
> Sure it was. It was crude, insulting and completely inappropriate to
> this list (or indeed any list that is supposed to be a professional
> technical list).
> 
> Your continued "rants" and unpleasantness merely show most of us that
> you belong on a DNH list...
> --
> Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/
> Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/
> Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away!
> 
> "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
> -- Margaret Atwood
> 
> 



~|
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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Bryan Stevenson]

>" Dave (am I going to say this out loud)has some good points on CF and
> missing the education boat ;-)"
> I think im gunna frame that, if I send it to you will ya autograph it 4 
> me?? haha

Only if you promise not to auction it off on eBay ;-)

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


~|
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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Adrocknaphobia]

It's not big deal. I didn't mind his comments at all. I was definitely
asking for it with my smart-ass 'this in not your blog' post. So yeah,
no harm, no foul.

-Adam

On 5/5/05, Sean Corfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 5/5/05, Alex Sherwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack.
> 
> Sure it was. It was crude, insulting and completely inappropriate to
> this list (or indeed any list that is supposed to be a professional
> technical list).
> 
> Your continued "rants" and unpleasantness merely show most of us that
> you belong on a DNH list...
> --
> Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/
> Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/
> Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away!
> 
> "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
> -- Margaret Atwood
> 
> 

~|
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efficiency by 100%
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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Calvin Ward]

Since they are two different products, I'd rather see CFMX in schools.

- Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:38 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

I'll just throw in my .02 and say I believe Dave ( "The Disruptor" )
is correct.

But, I wonder why, since BlueDragon *is* free, the effort isn't
made to get that version of CF into schools?  And why, even without
trying to push it into schools, schools don't use it?

It is easier to start building applications with and I think students,
especially those who aren't focused on a Computer Science degree,
would flock to for building the web apps they use every day.

Students learn as much from projects started on their own intiative
as they do from what they learn in class, so, if CF from any source
is available for free and makes it possible for "money-challenged" students
to build some usable apps quickly for their use, they'll learn to love CF...
But, students have much more time on their hands than money, so what's
cheaper will almost always win...

And it would be hugely popular with the "non-programmer" crowd who are
web and graphic designers trying to build in functionality into their sites
due to it's gently sloping learning curve.  I know about that curve, because
I have no degree in computers at all, and I started out building static
sites,
then heard of Cold Fusion, found it digestable, and have been using it ever
since.
(Still using 4.5.2, however ;o)

So, back to my main question:  Why even bother with MM's version of CF?
Why not BlueDragon in the schools?

Rick


 From: "dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 6:37 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

I don't know Bryan, seems fairly simple too me

Wasn't saying anything about any kind of programming class, courses,
studies, none, zero, ziltch!!!
I was saying to use the basics of simple human nature (sticking with
familiarity) to introduce coldfusion to a mass audience of GRAPHIC DESIGNERS
who can then if they choose to dive into some programming as well already
have the inclination to first and foremost give coldfusion a shot instead of
the current standard which is PHP. By doing so you would very quickly see
the stats for coldfusion sky rocket (since a lot of you are so into that
crap) and it will also launch coldfusion into a much greater and wider
audience.

 I would even go a bit farther and say to have the cfm standard version free
as well to get it into more hosting companies and get these people on good
hosting plans just as easily as php. At which point these hosting companies
would see the benefits of running cfm and a lot more would anny up and
purchase enterprise which would increase in more sales and a broader wider
audience and we could then tell all the nae sayers to shove it!! haha :)

Sure it would result in more crappy coders but does PHP or .net not have
crappy coders as well?

Gawd, I can't wait for Micha to ruin this... haha
Micha, just so we are clear on this

I am saying a lot of these ppl will only need say a contact me page with
actually coding in it, and I know you will want to run it across several
clusters and rewrite it all in java and damn I can only imagine the 3000
lines of js you'd need to validate the 1 email field and be sure to write it
in OOP with several custom tags to send the email out and have it on a
secured server and all, but.

The point is to get it in front of them properly, so it's not like it is now
where 99% of these ppl think coldfusion is SO EXPENSIVE for them to use,
really, that's what they say, that's what they think and it's totally wrong.

And then maybe when you have a bigger and more diverse user group like that,
then whomever owns cfm will see the benefits of shoving it down our throats
as often as they can. (aka your big front page adverts)

"It's not that CFM should be taught as the first language.just simply 
that it should be shown to students as an option."
Not only that it's an option but that it's free to use to develop as well,
which right now these ppl think it will cost them $1200 to even use.
So it's a bit of proper education on their choices as well, which isn't
happening currently.

Ok you know I got whip out an analogy..
Say when you went to prom and your big brother gives a Trojan rubber, the
next time you need a rubber ducky and you go to the store, what do you buy?
Human nature says that you'd at least first look for a Trojan. Just like
right now these students are given a PHP script, so when they start moving
on into development the first thing they look for is PHP. So common basic
sense says to replace that php script with a cf

Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

I'm always correct!! haha
 "ok, thats funny no matter who ya are.."

 Why not bd?
 Vince will have to answer that.

 My answer is what my original intentions of it was that Adobe is so firmly 
entrenched in these programs that it would theoretically be easy to squeeze it 
in once they have it. (after merger) So when the send out the new software as 
like right now with adobe cs2 they could throw coldfusion in there. There 
probably wouldn't very much arm twisting like there would be with bg and you 
all know how we are with new toys!

~Dave the disruptor~ 


From: "Rick Faircloth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:40 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

I'll just throw in my .02 and say I believe Dave ( "The Disruptor" )
is correct.

But, I wonder why, since BlueDragon *is* free, the effort isn't
made to get that version of CF into schools?  And why, even without
trying to push it into schools, schools don't use it?

It is easier to start building applications with and I think students,
especially those who aren't focused on a Computer Science degree,
would flock to for building the web apps they use every day.

Students learn as much from projects started on their own intiative
as they do from what they learn in class, so, if CF from any source
is available for free and makes it possible for "money-challenged" students
to build some usable apps quickly for their use, they'll learn to love CF...
But, students have much more time on their hands than money, so what's
cheaper will almost always win...

And it would be hugely popular with the "non-programmer" crowd who are
web and graphic designers trying to build in functionality into their sites
due to it's gently sloping learning curve.  I know about that curve, because
I have no degree in computers at all, and I started out building static sites,
then heard of Cold Fusion, found it digestable, and have been using it ever 
since.
(Still using 4.5.2, however ;o)

So, back to my main question:  Why even bother with MM's version of CF?
Why not BlueDragon in the schools?

Rick

----------------
 From: "dave" 
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 6:37 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

I don't know Bryan, seems fairly simple too me

Wasn't saying anything about any kind of programming class, courses, studies, 
none, zero, ziltch!!!
I was saying to use the basics of simple human nature (sticking with 
familiarity) to introduce coldfusion to a mass audience of GRAPHIC DESIGNERS 
who can then if they choose to dive into some programming as well already have 
the inclination to first and foremost give coldfusion a shot instead of the 
current standard which is PHP. By doing so you would very quickly see the stats 
for coldfusion sky rocket (since a lot of you are so into that crap) and it 
will also launch coldfusion into a much greater and wider audience.

 I would even go a bit farther and say to have the cfm standard version free as 
well to get it into more hosting companies and get these people on good hosting 
plans just as easily as php. At which point these hosting companies would see 
the benefits of running cfm and a lot more would anny up and purchase 
enterprise which would increase in more sales and a broader wider audience and 
we could then tell all the nae sayers to shove it!! haha :)

Sure it would result in more crappy coders but does PHP or .net not have crappy 
coders as well?

Gawd, I can't wait for Micha to ruin this... haha
Micha, just so we are clear on this

I am saying a lot of these ppl will only need say a contact me page with 
actually coding in it, and I know you will want to run it across several 
clusters and rewrite it all in java and damn I can only imagine the 3000 lines 
of js you'd need to validate the 1 email field and be sure to write it in OOP 
with several custom tags to send the email out and have it on a secured server 
and all, but.

The point is to get it in front of them properly, so it's not like it is now 
where 99% of these ppl think coldfusion is SO EXPENSIVE for them to use, 
really, that's what they say, that's what they think and it's totally wrong.

And then maybe when you have a bigger and more diverse user group like that, 
then whomever owns cfm will see the benefits of shoving it down our throats as 
often as they can. (aka your big front page adverts)

"It's not that CFM should be taught as the first language.just simply 
that it should be shown to students as an option."
Not only that it's an option but that it's free to use to develop as well, 
which right now these ppl think it will cost them $1200 to even use.
So it's a bit of proper education on their

Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Rick Faircloth]

I'll just throw in my .02 and say I believe Dave ( "The Disruptor" )
is correct.

But, I wonder why, since BlueDragon *is* free, the effort isn't
made to get that version of CF into schools?  And why, even without
trying to push it into schools, schools don't use it?

It is easier to start building applications with and I think students,
especially those who aren't focused on a Computer Science degree,
would flock to for building the web apps they use every day.

Students learn as much from projects started on their own intiative
as they do from what they learn in class, so, if CF from any source
is available for free and makes it possible for "money-challenged" students
to build some usable apps quickly for their use, they'll learn to love CF...
But, students have much more time on their hands than money, so what's
cheaper will almost always win...

And it would be hugely popular with the "non-programmer" crowd who are
web and graphic designers trying to build in functionality into their sites
due to it's gently sloping learning curve.  I know about that curve, because
I have no degree in computers at all, and I started out building static sites,
then heard of Cold Fusion, found it digestable, and have been using it ever 
since.
(Still using 4.5.2, however ;o)

So, back to my main question:  Why even bother with MM's version of CF?
Why not BlueDragon in the schools?

Rick


 From: "dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 6:37 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

I don't know Bryan, seems fairly simple too me

Wasn't saying anything about any kind of programming class, courses, studies, 
none, zero, ziltch!!!
I was saying to use the basics of simple human nature (sticking with 
familiarity) to introduce coldfusion to a mass audience of GRAPHIC DESIGNERS 
who can then if they choose to dive into some programming as well already have 
the inclination to first and foremost give coldfusion a shot instead of the 
current standard which is PHP. By doing so you would very quickly see the stats 
for coldfusion sky rocket (since a lot of you are so into that crap) and it 
will also launch coldfusion into a much greater and wider audience.

 I would even go a bit farther and say to have the cfm standard version free as 
well to get it into more hosting companies and get these people on good hosting 
plans just as easily as php. At which point these hosting companies would see 
the benefits of running cfm and a lot more would anny up and purchase 
enterprise which would increase in more sales and a broader wider audience and 
we could then tell all the nae sayers to shove it!! haha :)

Sure it would result in more crappy coders but does PHP or .net not have crappy 
coders as well?

Gawd, I can't wait for Micha to ruin this... haha
Micha, just so we are clear on this

I am saying a lot of these ppl will only need say a contact me page with 
actually coding in it, and I know you will want to run it across several 
clusters and rewrite it all in java and damn I can only imagine the 3000 lines 
of js you'd need to validate the 1 email field and be sure to write it in OOP 
with several custom tags to send the email out and have it on a secured server 
and all, but.

The point is to get it in front of them properly, so it's not like it is now 
where 99% of these ppl think coldfusion is SO EXPENSIVE for them to use, 
really, that's what they say, that's what they think and it's totally wrong.

And then maybe when you have a bigger and more diverse user group like that, 
then whomever owns cfm will see the benefits of shoving it down our throats as 
often as they can. (aka your big front page adverts)

"It's not that CFM should be taught as the first language.just simply 
that it should be shown to students as an option."
Not only that it's an option but that it's free to use to develop as well, 
which right now these ppl think it will cost them $1200 to even use.
So it's a bit of proper education on their choices as well, which isn't 
happening currently.

Ok you know I got whip out an analogy..
Say when you went to prom and your big brother gives a Trojan rubber, the next 
time you need a rubber ducky and you go to the store, what do you buy?
Human nature says that you'd at least first look for a Trojan. Just like right 
now these students are given a PHP script, so when they start moving on into 
development the first thing they look for is PHP. So common basic sense says to 
replace that php script with a cfm script and if you don't get this drift lemme 
know and I will come over with my "get a clue" stick and beat you silly with it 
;)

" Dave the disruptor "
LMFAO!!! 
thats a CLASSIC!! haha
Gunna use that as my

Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

Right on Rick,
 How do you motivate people? Show them results, quickly, keep them excited, 
which cfm excels at.
 I'd rather grab todays paper and head to the "office" for awhile before I 
would "want" to look at PHP code, especially if I was completely new.

 Build the basement first and give them something to grow upon, keep their 
excitement level up and they will flourish, push OOP down their throats at 
first and you will loose a lot of them. And todays coldfusion gives so much 
"excitement" to new users, give them a flash form and watch them e and 
ah. Give them the chance to builder a better web site faster then continue 
up the ladder from there just as many of us on this list are doing.

 I would assume that a huge majority of ppl who use cfm, .net or php will 
never, ever step into a university to learn anything about programming and just 
because they don't doesn't mean that they will never make a decent web site. 
They just won't have the opportunity to come on here and be like Micha :) haha 
jk :|

~Dave the disruptor~ 


From: Rick Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 4:07 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

Calvin,
 In a word yes. I think ColdFusion offers a better introduction to 
programming than PHP.
 Even Adobe can't go toe to toe with Microsoft in marketing CF to 
corporations. Macromedia always said that CF was a "bottom up" product.
 Well I can't think of a better way to get CF in the back door of 
corporations than to introduce it to thousands of college students. I refuse 
to believe that it will cripple them from going on to learn OOP and advanced 
languages. 
 Rick Mason

 On 5/4/05, Calvin Ward  wrote: 
> 
> Effectively, you seem to be saying that education establishments should be
> teaching CF instead of PHP?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Rick Mason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 10:47 AM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
> 
> Micha,
> With all due respect I wasn't advocating if you read my message that they
> only learn CFML.
> Most of the university students in Michigan leave knowing several
> languages, of course they should know c# and java if they're to become
> employable.
> I remain unconvinced that learning CF first is going to somehow handicap
> them in learning advanced languages. In fact I think it's just the 
> opposite,
> 
> the quick productivity building useful stuff is likely to inspire them as
> they learn advanced subjects.
> A great many programmers of my generation first tackled the basic that IBM
> shipped on the first PC XT's. Somehow using things like GoTo's didn't
> prevent me from going on to learn other languages with more advanced
> concepts.
> I still remain convinced that CF would be a great first language in
> colleges and with a little effort it could be dominant in that role.
> Rick Mason
> 
> On 5/4/05, Micha Schopman  wrote:
> >
> > I disagree, in the least because the job opportunities for C, C++, C#
> > and Java are much and much larger than those for CF developers.
> >
> > Second, with C# or Java you learn to work with true OOP in a much more
> > advanced environment then CF will ever be. If you for example look at
> > protection levels for every action you take, it will force you to think
> > about the architecture of your application in a way CF will probably
> > never reach.
> >
> > Even then, I don't know how this is in the US, but here university level
> > schools don't really focus on the programming languages, but they focus
> > more on managing a software creation process, writing technical and
> > functional documentation, diagrams, architectures, release management,
> > and then there comes programming.
> >
> > It is nice if students can get a copy of CF cheaper with a school
> > license, but to let schools teach CF, rather not. Every Java developer
> > can program CF, not every CF programmer can do Java.
> >
> > Micha Schopman
> > Project Manager
> >
> > Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort
> > Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
> > KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 



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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Matt Robertson]

> This thread is over.

Woo Hoo!

-- 
--mattRobertson--
Janitor, MSB Web Systems
mysecretbase.com

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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

Rick,
 There are some amazing things this merger could very well produce so long as 
they work the products together the same way MM has done so, there could be 
some big time power added to cfm. Another thing I would like to see is a small 
footprint version of cfm server that would be run in the os to power desktop 
apps and ria's, much the same as shorthorn says it will do, I know there are a 
few ones that will do this but I'd rather have one from the source.

 I'm assuming this merger is a direct shot at the throat of M$ and now they 
will have more leverage to start the dismantling of the giant.
 And I know some will say that will never happen so long as windows keeps going 
which is something Adobe doesn't have but then again Adobe has something M$ 
will never have and thats the image design market. And the thing is other 
companies are going after the os and browser market and really no one is going 
after the photoshop market.

 Especially if apple doesnt mess up the marketting of this OS X but its 
growing, the younger generation is firmly entrenching itself in macs (except 
the hardcore gamers) and the ipod has become a staple of their generation. So 
the time is right for Adobe to make a run, lets hope they do it right.

~Dave the disruptor~ 


From: Rick Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:39 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

Dave,
 *I hope one of the things Adobe does with cfm is to license its use in 
schools and such for free and use its deep photoshop roots to entrench it in 
a lot of these "designer" programs.
*
That's one of the things that I have campaigned on for the longest time. All 
the Michigan colleges and universities use CF for the business side. But 
only one uses it on the teaching side.
 The first language a lot of these kids learn is PHP, I think all will agree 
that CFML is a much better choice. Guess what the marketing budget for this 
favored position might be? How about zero, so even a slight effort could 
displace it.
 These students may learn C# or java later but they will end up doing their 
personal sites with CF. What do you want to bet that when they end up out in 
the world and want a chance to shine under a tight deadline and/or budget 
they will remember CF?
 I continue to believe it's a great opportunity that's being missed.
 Rick Mason



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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

" See, now people will consider me guilty for having you here, stirring
 trooubles on the list :-))"
 well you did start the boat rowing for me with cfm!
 Was actually some comments you made one time to me about how I was having 
troubles with asp and sending mail and the gawd aweful mess m$ makes you go 
through to do that and you showed an example of send mail in cfm and I was 
"amazed", that and uploading files and of course your constant commenting about 
cfm is just "sexier", got have that :)

 But I do thank you for it, cfm has made my life much easier :)

~Dave the disruptor~ 


From: "Massimo Foti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 4:20 AM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

> It's funny Massimo, you more than anything got me into moving to cfm :)

See, now people will consider me guilty for having you here, stirring
trooubles on the list :-))

> thanks!

I guess the "ladies" argument played a major role here :-)

> And I hear what you are saying but it's still not what my point was.

I was trying to answer a very specific question from Micha concerning
computer science education, a place where, in my opinion, CFML doesn't fit
well.

> Again I was referencing these people who dont want to be programmers
> but find out that they do need to learn something to be able to function
> or get a good job

Sure, for those people CF is a great choice


Massimo Foti
DW tools: http://www.massimocorner.com
CF tools: http://www.olimpo.ch/tmt/




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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

" Dave (am I going to say this out loud)has some good points on CF and 
 missing the education boat ;-)"
 I think im gunna frame that, if I send it to you will ya autograph it 4 me?? 
haha

~Dave the disruptor~ 


From: "Bryan Stevenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 11:26 AM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

> why CF doesn't have a chance in educations. For CF there are specific
> trainings, and training centers, hence the Macromedia Certified Trainer
> status.

MichaCF is taught elsewherelike by me (not MM certified and never 
will be) to folks getting re-educated for a new career.

..and remember Micha...not all education happens at the university 
levelthere are tech schools (no I won't debate the quality of these 
places) and colleges. These places spit out an awful lot of Internet career 
minded folks...and alot of them come out with PHP experience because it's 
free and the schools run tight budgets.

Dave (am I going to say this out loud)has some good points on CF and 
missing the education boat ;-)

Also...I see this OOP argument come up again and again. We always have to 
remember that the vast majority of web apps out there are not so vast that 
they need the level of architecture you're talking about (hell that's why so 
many are written in PHP).

So with better focus on the new learners and getting those that made up 
their minds that CF was a toy back in the 4.x days to have another look will 
help CF.

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 



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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

" Really Ben, I don't think you'll ever know the depth of your impact on the 
 CF community"
 Yeah like when I dropped it on my foot and it broke my toe!
 I thought you said you were gunna reimburse me for my medical bills Ben?

~Dave the disruptor~ 


From: "Jared Rypka-Hauer - CMG, LLC" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 1:05 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

Maybe that was my problem... ;) I thought the WACK was a code dictionary. 
Hehe...

Really Ben, I don't think you'll ever know the depth of your impact on the 
CF community. Without the WACK I'm not sure it would have built up the user 
base in the early days to be what it is today. For me, and for years, your 
stuff was my only source of information.

Now I'm curious... has anyone hand-coded all the samples to create a running 
copy of Orange Whip Studios?

I must admit, I never did... :)

Laterz,
J

On 5/4/05, James Holmes  wrote:
> 
> ROFL!
> 
> I think the WACK is actually rather good for best practices etc - as long 
> as
> people read the entire thing as they are supposed to.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 11:26
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
> 
> >> someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town
> 
> Oh nice, so now *I'm* going to get blamed. ;-)
> 

-- 
---
-
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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

Well we all have opinions and thats a good thing!
 I like mysql but when somthing like this comes up it makes me go back and 
check my own db's and see if that's happening to me as well so it does serve a 
purpose and bickering is annoying but it does eventually help some people out 
and that's what we are here for, right? Even if I disagree with something I 
will check it out, cause gawd 4 bid there is a chance I could actually *gasp* 
be wrong.

~Dave the disruptor~ 


From: "Bryan Stevenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 6:45 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

> " Dave the disruptor "
> LMFAO!!!
> thats a CLASSIC!! haha
> Gunna use that as my sig :)

Glad you like itI think I'm about to be labelled..."Bryan the Open 
Source Basher" given my MySQL help thread that has run amok!!

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 



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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Bryan Stevenson]

> " Dave the disruptor "
> LMFAO!!!
> thats a CLASSIC!! haha
> Gunna use that as my sig :)

Glad you like itI think I'm about to be labelled..."Bryan the Open 
Source Basher" given my MySQL help thread that has run amok!!

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

I don't know Bryan, seems fairly simple too me

 Wasn't saying anything about any kind of programming class, courses, studies, 
none, zero, ziltch!!!
 I was saying to use the basics of simple human nature (sticking with 
familiarity) to introduce coldfusion to a mass audience of GRAPHIC DESIGNERS 
who can then if they choose to dive into some programming as well already have 
the inclination to first and foremost give coldfusion a shot instead of the 
current standard which is PHP. By doing so you would very quickly see the stats 
for coldfusion sky rocket (since a lot of you are so into that crap) and it 
will also launch coldfusion into a much greater and wider audience.

  I would even go a bit farther and say to have the cfm standard version free 
as well to get it into more hosting companies and get these people on good 
hosting plans just as easily as php. At which point these hosting companies 
would see the benefits of running cfm and a lot more would anny up and purchase 
enterprise which would increase in more sales and a broader wider audience and 
we could then tell all the nae sayers to shove it!! haha :)

 Sure it would result in more crappy coders but does PHP or .net not have 
crappy coders as well?

 Gawd, I can't wait for Micha to ruin this... haha
 Micha, just so we are clear on this

 I am saying a lot of these ppl will only need say a contact me page with 
actually coding in it, and I know you will want to run it across several 
clusters and rewrite it all in java and damn I can only imagine the 3000 lines 
of js you'd need to validate the 1 email field and be sure to write it in OOP 
with several custom tags to send the email out and have it on a secured server 
and all, but.

 The point is to get it in front of them properly, so it's not like it is now 
where 99% of these ppl think coldfusion is SO EXPENSIVE for them to use, 
really, that's what they say, that's what they think and it's totally wrong.

 And then maybe when you have a bigger and more diverse user group like that, 
then whomever owns cfm will see the benefits of shoving it down our throats as 
often as they can. (aka your big front page adverts)

  "It's not that CFM should be taught as the first language.just simply 
 that it should be shown to students as an option."
 Not only that it's an option but that it's free to use to develop as well, 
which right now these ppl think it will cost them $1200 to even use.
 So it's a bit of proper education on their choices as well, which isn't 
happening currently.

 Ok you know I got whip out an analogy..
 Say when you went to prom and your big brother gives a Trojan rubber, the next 
time you need a rubber ducky and you go to the store, what do you buy?
 Human nature says that you'd at least first look for a Trojan. Just like right 
now these students are given a PHP script, so when they start moving on into 
development the first thing they look for is PHP. So common basic sense says to 
replace that php script with a cfm script and if you don't get this drift lemme 
know and I will come over with my "get a clue" stick and beat you silly with it 
;)

" Dave the disruptor "
 LMFAO!!! 
 thats a CLASSIC!! haha
 Gunna use that as my sig :)
 I haven't been 2 bad lately, since the burning of XP and the move to OS X, I 
am back to my regular goofy self.

----
From: "Bryan Stevenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 4:36 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

aggghhh!

Doesn't anybody but me get what dave (not Dave W.) is saying!!!

It's not that CFM should be taught as the first langauge.just simply 
that it should be shown to students as an option.

"Today in class boys and girls we are going to have a look at CFML, PHP, and 
ASP as examples of languages to use for the web. Here's how you process a 
form in each and mail the results to someone"

This is radically different that what Micha/Massimio/Dave W are on about. I 
think we'd all agree to what you bunch are saying..."CF is not to be used as 
an example of proper programming"...but that ain't what Dave the disruptor 
is on about ;-)

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 



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Message: htt

Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Alex Sherwood]

Sean Corfield wrote:

>On 5/5/05, Alex Sherwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>
>>it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack.
>>
>>
>Sure it was. It was crude, insulting and completely inappropriate to
>this list (or indeed any list that is supposed to be a professional
>technical list).
>
>Your continued "rants" and unpleasantness merely show most of us that
>you belong on a DNH list...
>  
>

I'm sorry I've made you feel unpleasant, Sean.

If you'd look through the thread, I've responded quite professionally to 
those posts that were on topic and addressed the content of my post. The 
only person who I addressed off topic was Adrocknophibia, and only after 
he responded to my post three times - each time failing to address the 
actual content, and instead either telling me not to post, calling me 
paranoid, or stating that my post was a reaction to a fear of my career 
ending.

You'll also notice that I ignored his first 2 posts, and responded by 
calling him a simpleton a day later, after a 3rd post insinuating that I 
felt my career rested on a flash banner ad.

In 4+ years on the list, I have never had an unpleasant exchange with 
anyone (except for saying that Mach-II was better than OnTap, but that's 
another story). It wasn't until Phobia saw fit to pepper me and put 
words in my mouth that I responded in a less then professional manner.

This thread is over.



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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

save your " conspiracy theories" for m$ ;) haha


From: Alex Sherwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 12:47 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

This was also after Adrocknaphobia said the following:

---

>Yes, your rants and paranoid conspiracy theories belong on a personal
>blog... for which I will avoid.

---

Calling him a simpleton was warranted.

-=-=-=
Alex

Calvin Ward wrote:

>I completely disagree. There's never a good enough reason to start throwing
>around profanity and insulting people on a list intended for a group of
>professionals.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Alex Sherwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:33 AM
>To: CF-Talk
>Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
>
>agADave Watts wrote:
>
> 
>
>>>Get the shit out of your eyes, you simpleton.
>>> 
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>While this wasn't directed at me, this kind of response really isn't called
>>for. Personally, when I want to insult someone on a mailing list, I try to
>>reach for the rapier rather than the cudgel, if you know what I mean.
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>>



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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

Not to mention this is only like 2-3 months beyond the fact.

 Personally, I applaude their work and whether or not it gets 
in-yer-face-annoying advertising or not, it still gives me a fabulous tool to 
work with.


From: Sean Corfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 4:43 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

On 5/5/05, Alex Sherwood  wrote:
> it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack.

Sure it was. It was crude, insulting and completely inappropriate to
this list (or indeed any list that is supposed to be a professional
technical list).

Your continued "rants" and unpleasantness merely show most of us that
you belong on a DNH list...
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/
Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away!

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood



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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Sean Corfield]

On 5/5/05, Alex Sherwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> it was not a baseless ad- hoymnum attack.

Sure it was. It was crude, insulting and completely inappropriate to
this list (or indeed any list that is supposed to be a professional
technical list).

Your continued "rants" and unpleasantness merely show most of us that
you belong on a DNH list...
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/
Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away!

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Alex Sherwood]

This was also after Adrocknaphobia said the following:

---

>Yes, your rants and paranoid conspiracy theories belong on a personal
>blog... for which I will avoid.

---

Calling him a simpleton was warranted.


-=-=-=
Alex



Calvin Ward wrote:

>I completely disagree. There's never a good enough reason to start throwing
>around profanity and insulting people on a list intended for a group of
>professionals.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Alex Sherwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:33 AM
>To: CF-Talk
>Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
>
>agADave Watts wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>Get the shit out of your eyes, you simpleton.
>>>   
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>While this wasn't directed at me, this kind of response really isn't called
>>for. Personally, when I want to insult someone on a mailing list, I try to
>>reach for the rapier rather than the cudgel, if you know what I mean.
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>


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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Calvin Ward]

I completely disagree. There's never a good enough reason to start throwing
around profanity and insulting people on a list intended for a group of
professionals.

-Original Message-
From: Alex Sherwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:33 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

agADave Watts wrote:

>>Get the shit out of your eyes, you simpleton.
>>
>>
>
>While this wasn't directed at me, this kind of response really isn't called
>for. Personally, when I want to insult someone on a mailing list, I try to
>reach for the rapier rather than the cudgel, if you know what I mean.
>
>  
>

Yes, Dave it was. It was in response to him oversimplifying and maiming 
the intent of my original post. The response was right on target: 
telling him to actually read the post (which I assumed he could not 
because of excrement blocking his vision), and a simpleton because the 
term is reflective of his actions of not being able to take my post for 
more than raw criticism.


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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Alex Sherwood]

agADave Watts wrote:

>>Get the shit out of your eyes, you simpleton.
>>
>>
>
>While this wasn't directed at me, this kind of response really isn't called
>for. Personally, when I want to insult someone on a mailing list, I try to
>reach for the rapier rather than the cudgel, if you know what I mean.
>
>  
>

Yes, Dave it was. It was in response to him oversimplifying and maiming 
the intent of my original post. The response was right on target: 
telling him to actually read the post (which I assumed he could not 
because of excrement blocking his vision), and a simpleton because the 
term is reflective of his actions of not being able to take my post for 
more than raw criticism.

Reaching for the rapier or a cudgel would not have been appropriate. My 
response was based on an earlier exchange of posts - it was not a 
baseless ad- hoymnum attack.

>>I did not say that I thought CF would die. On the contrary, I 
>>stated that I believed the MM would still invest time and 
>>resources into CFMX.
>>
>>
>>
>Well, we can all speculate on this until the cows come home, but why bother?
>If you believe that MM will still invest time and resources into CFMX, why
>not just let them choose how they want to handle advertising? What does
>their "internal view of CFMX" matter, as long as they still invest the
>appropriate time and resources into the product? Why do you think you're
>more qualified to run their marketing than they are? They have a lot of
>diverse products, and a similarly diverse audience of potential and actual
>customers. Don't you think that they would spend more time pushing CF if
>they thought that this would be more profitable than pushing something else?
>  
>

I'm sorry...can you point me to the place in my original post in which I 
professed to know more about marketing MM's products then they do? 
Dave,  here is what I said:

--

Why am I mentioning this? Well, IMHO, it's a subtle but important 
indicator about MM's view of CFMX. It's not that they won't devote $$ 
and resources to its continued development, but it's clear that the 
"broader reach" products like Breeze and some of the Flash authoring 
tools will continue to force CFMX to  "backstage" 

--

My post was not only factual, but not a directive. I never directly or 
indirectly insinuated that MM should change their  marketing strategy. I only 
commented on what it actual was, and offered my opion on what the lack of 
exposure on MM's site on launch could mean.

As for the "why bother", you're kidding right? Do you mean to tell me that 
Chris Berman the ESPN acnchor should sit still and just read the ball scores, 
without any commentary and anaylsis. Shoot, he can change the was Donovan 
McNabb plays, so why even bother talking about it, right? Just let McNabb throw 
the ball and report who scored more points on Sunday night?


I find it amazing that people will read one post which raises a minor issue and 
asks an open ended question about CF, and respond as if I'm advocating bringing 
Ted Bundy back from the dead to speak at DevCon in Anaheim!


>People seem to be in the habit of comparing Macromedia's stewardship of CF
>to the "good ol' days" of Allaire. Well, Allaire had how many products? One,
>really, unless you count Allaire Forums and Spectra - both of which were
>handled poorly, in my opinion. Oh, I forgot JRun - but neither Allaire nor
>Macromedia really push that at all, they just used it to build a bunch of
>other products.
>
>  
>
Again, Dave, this is hyperbole. I only commented on CFMX7's exposure 
compared to other products on launch day (including the prior version of 
CFMX!) - not MM's stewardship compared to Allaire.

--
Alex Sherwood

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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Sean Corfield]

On 5/5/05, Adrocknaphobia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm just saying that in the
> many times I worked with fresh CS students, they were not equipped to
> develop web applications as someone who had been using CF for a few
> years.

My experience is that most CS students aren't equipped to build *any*
real world apps at all. The colleges just don't teach CS that way.

> Regardless if its CF, .NET or J2EE. There are completely different
> skill sets in web development vs desktop development.

Well, that's actually debatable in my opinion.

> Universities
> seems to focus heavily on desktop development, even though the vast
> majority of the students will end up in a job writing web
> applications.

I know very few CS students who ended up in web development - and most
of the web developers I meet have no CS background. Pretty much all
the CS folks I know ended up in server-side development or packaged
application development (boxed desktop or server software).

> On 5/5/05, Matthew Small <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Anyone knowing these [CS] things could easily pick up ColdFusion.  The 
> > reverse is
> > certainly not true.

Yeah, that I'll agree with.

> > The knowledge gained by CS students is mainly theory, but that student can
> > display greater breadth of knowledge of computing than someone just armed
> > with a CFWACK.

Right, because the theory is important to *problem-solving* as well as
a basic understanding of algorithms etc.

Do I think CF should be taught in college? Only after teaching
programming basics in a 'purer' language. It's like the old argument
about BASIC. It's easy to learn but it's easy to learn bad habits. A
first language should keep you focused on best practices - once you've
got those, you can branch out. I learned Pascal first for good
practices and assembler for the nuts and bolts. Then I learned
FORTRAN, PL/1, Prolog, APL and a number of other languages. That core
set of skills has informed every language I've learned since and every
language I've learned has informed my software design skills. Teaching
just one language - any language - risks boxing people into one way of
thinking. Teaching 'easy' languages first risks people picking up bad
habits that can be hard to unlearn.
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/
Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away!

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Calvin Ward]

I thought he said that the majority of new corporate apps are going to be
web apps...

I could agree with that prediction.

-Original Message-
From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:56 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

"I worked with fresh CS students, [and] they were not equipped to
develop web applications as someone who had been using CF for a few
years."

Agreed - but that's true for any job.  Experience usually trumps knowledge.
But consider how many people who have been using CF for a few years, with no
CS experience, can move into a pure programming job (using C++, Java, etc)?
A CS student can do that. Again, a person with a few years of writing
real-world C++ or Java is going be better than the fresh CS student. A CS
student can move among the many disciplines of computer science because he's
got the fundamentals.

I'm just wondering - what is your source for saying that the vast majority
of jobs are going to be in web dev?

- Matt Small





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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Matthew Small]

"I worked with fresh CS students, [and] they were not equipped to
develop web applications as someone who had been using CF for a few
years."

Agreed - but that's true for any job.  Experience usually trumps knowledge.
But consider how many people who have been using CF for a few years, with no
CS experience, can move into a pure programming job (using C++, Java, etc)?
A CS student can do that. Again, a person with a few years of writing
real-world C++ or Java is going be better than the fresh CS student. A CS
student can move among the many disciplines of computer science because he's
got the fundamentals.

I'm just wondering - what is your source for saying that the vast majority
of jobs are going to be in web dev?

- Matt Small



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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Calvin Ward]

However, that doesn't mean that CS programs shouldn't include web
application technology and methodology, even if only as elective. 

I think part of the point is that web development languages are already in
play at colleges and university, and as CF developers, we would like to see
CF be the defacto language of choice for web development discussion at
colleges and universities, especially when compared to other languages such
as PHP or ASP.

I think that is a healthy direction for the CF community and would result in
a growth of awareness and appreciation over the long term for CF itself.

And btw, I know plenty of mainframe and Java developers who have little to
no understanding of developing web applications, CF aside. 

- Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 10:16 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

CS programs don't worry where the output is going to, only the result.  Web
applications are only a subset of programming. The skills gained in college
are transferable to any application type.  

Furthermore, web programming does not usually use the skills learned at
higher levels (and CF in particular)- pointers - memory manipulation -
garbage collection - deep copy - data structures - sorting algorithms - file
structures - language compilation.  This is the stuff used by those who
write ColdFusion, C#, PHP, Adobe Photoshop and other applications.

Anyone knowing these things could easily pick up ColdFusion.  The reverse is
certainly not true.

The knowledge gained by CS students is mainly theory, but that student can
display greater breadth of knowledge of computing than someone just armed
with a CFWACK.  

- Matt Small


-Original Message-
From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:55 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

But C# and Java are taught in the area of desktop application
development. Colleges do not do enough to teach web application
development, which is where ColdFusion would be a useful medium. I
don't have any exact numbers, but I can only imagine that more web
applications are being developed than desktop applications in the
corporate enviornment. So why are all the CS students graduating with
knowledge that only helps them in the minority of jobs?

-Adam





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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Adrocknaphobia]

True. But I'm not saying _not_ to teach C# and Java for overall CS
skills. I'm saying after the general knowledge of CS is taught,
colleges should focus on web applications as they make up the majority
of the jobs. There are quite a bit of skills that need to be aquired
to develop enterprise web applications. I'm just saying that in the
many times I worked with fresh CS students, they were not equipped to
develop web applications as someone who had been using CF for a few
years.

Regardless if its CF, .NET or J2EE. There are completely different
skill sets in web development vs desktop development. Universities
seems to focus heavily on desktop development, even though the vast
majority of the students will end up in a job writing web
applications. So yes there are alot of fundamentals gained in desktop
development, but there are also alot of skills lacking for web
development.

-Adam

On 5/5/05, Matthew Small <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> CS programs don't worry where the output is going to, only the result.  Web
> applications are only a subset of programming. The skills gained in college
> are transferable to any application type.
> 
> Furthermore, web programming does not usually use the skills learned at
> higher levels (and CF in particular)- pointers - memory manipulation -
> garbage collection - deep copy - data structures - sorting algorithms - file
> structures - language compilation.  This is the stuff used by those who
> write ColdFusion, C#, PHP, Adobe Photoshop and other applications.
> 
> Anyone knowing these things could easily pick up ColdFusion.  The reverse is
> certainly not true.
> 
> The knowledge gained by CS students is mainly theory, but that student can
> display greater breadth of knowledge of computing than someone just armed
> with a CFWACK.
> 
> - Matt Small
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:55 AM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
> 
> But C# and Java are taught in the area of desktop application
> development. Colleges do not do enough to teach web application
> development, which is where ColdFusion would be a useful medium. I
> don't have any exact numbers, but I can only imagine that more web
> applications are being developed than desktop applications in the
> corporate enviornment. So why are all the CS students graduating with
> knowledge that only helps them in the minority of jobs?
> 
> -Adam
> 
> 

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Matthew Small]

CS programs don't worry where the output is going to, only the result.  Web
applications are only a subset of programming. The skills gained in college
are transferable to any application type.  

Furthermore, web programming does not usually use the skills learned at
higher levels (and CF in particular)- pointers - memory manipulation -
garbage collection - deep copy - data structures - sorting algorithms - file
structures - language compilation.  This is the stuff used by those who
write ColdFusion, C#, PHP, Adobe Photoshop and other applications.

Anyone knowing these things could easily pick up ColdFusion.  The reverse is
certainly not true.

The knowledge gained by CS students is mainly theory, but that student can
display greater breadth of knowledge of computing than someone just armed
with a CFWACK.  

- Matt Small


-Original Message-
From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 9:55 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

But C# and Java are taught in the area of desktop application
development. Colleges do not do enough to teach web application
development, which is where ColdFusion would be a useful medium. I
don't have any exact numbers, but I can only imagine that more web
applications are being developed than desktop applications in the
corporate enviornment. So why are all the CS students graduating with
knowledge that only helps them in the minority of jobs?

-Adam



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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Adrocknaphobia]

But C# and Java are taught in the area of desktop application
development. Colleges do not do enough to teach web application
development, which is where ColdFusion would be a useful medium. I
don't have any exact numbers, but I can only imagine that more web
applications are being developed than desktop applications in the
corporate enviornment. So why are all the CS students graduating with
knowledge that only helps them in the minority of jobs?

-Adam

On 5/4/05, Matthew Small <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why should CF be used as an option in a Computer Science curriculum over
> such languages as Java or C#?
> 
> There is no reason at all.  Beginning students do start out with procedural
> programming, just to learn the basics - primitive datatypes (int, float,
> char, string) and operators.  They learn how to manipulate a single piece of
> data (string or number) and then groups of data using the array.  The entire
> time, they are not worried about form structures, variables passing out of
> scope, request/response, or anything that is common to internet programming.
> Furthermore, they do worry about datatypes and proper operations on those
> datatypes.
> 
> They learn compilation, execution, and the difference between interpretation
> and compilation.
> 
> Later on, objects and structures come into play.  Still data manipulation is
> focused on - not what the language is, or its idiosyncrasies. Furthermore,
> data output is usually limited to console, command-line output - not Windows
> or web pages, just line by line.  Later on, file output is done and bit
> manipulation at the file level is learned.
> 
> Pointers and direct memory management come into play as well, and must be
> used to accomplish later assignments.
> 
> The students use the same language they started with from beginning to end,
> unless the instructor allows advanced students to pick their language.  I
> chose to use VB 6.0 to write a compiler that blew away the rest of my class
> but simply because it looked good and they didn't know how to write in a
> visual language, not because it was so different than theirs.  A competent
> student doesn't need to be taught another programming language in order to
> start using it.
> 
> CF does not accomplish most of what needs to be learned in a CS environment.
> It's a tool for writing web pages on internet/intranet.  It gets the job
> done, depending on the job.
> 
> CF does many things for you - precisely why a curriculum shouldn't use it.
> It's why people can learn CF without knowing the nuts and bolts of
> programming.  It's also why those people don't get past CF.  I'm not even
> sure it should be an option in that curriculum.
> 
> - Matt Small
> 
> 
> 

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Calvin Ward]

There's that 'real' thing again.

-Original Message-
From: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 5:59 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

> -Original Message-
> From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> It's not that CFM should be taught as the first langauge.
> just simply that it should be shown to students as an option.

I think I've mentioned it here in the past, the local community college
here has a web application development course where they teach ASP &
PHP.  The webmaster (a few years ago) didn't consider CF a "real"
language was it was "just" an "extension" on top of Java so you might as
well just use Java, right?  That belief is very prevelant and MM are
missing out a great deal by not marketing against it.  If you can teach
someone that they can create their database, do a simple cfquery then
cfoutput loop they'll be happy, and even more-so when you show them
cfqueryparam and explain they can avoid many security problems using it.


-- 
Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
#include 



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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Damien McKenna]

> -Original Message-
> From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> It's not that CFM should be taught as the first langauge.
> just simply that it should be shown to students as an option.

I think I've mentioned it here in the past, the local community college
here has a web application development course where they teach ASP &
PHP.  The webmaster (a few years ago) didn't consider CF a "real"
language was it was "just" an "extension" on top of Java so you might as
well just use Java, right?  That belief is very prevelant and MM are
missing out a great deal by not marketing against it.  If you can teach
someone that they can create their database, do a simple cfquery then
cfoutput loop they'll be happy, and even more-so when you show them
cfqueryparam and explain they can avoid many security problems using it.


-- 
Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
#include 

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Matthew Small]

Why should CF be used as an option in a Computer Science curriculum over
such languages as Java or C#?

There is no reason at all.  Beginning students do start out with procedural
programming, just to learn the basics - primitive datatypes (int, float,
char, string) and operators.  They learn how to manipulate a single piece of
data (string or number) and then groups of data using the array.  The entire
time, they are not worried about form structures, variables passing out of
scope, request/response, or anything that is common to internet programming.
Furthermore, they do worry about datatypes and proper operations on those
datatypes. 

They learn compilation, execution, and the difference between interpretation
and compilation.

Later on, objects and structures come into play.  Still data manipulation is
focused on - not what the language is, or its idiosyncrasies. Furthermore,
data output is usually limited to console, command-line output - not Windows
or web pages, just line by line.  Later on, file output is done and bit
manipulation at the file level is learned.

Pointers and direct memory management come into play as well, and must be
used to accomplish later assignments.

The students use the same language they started with from beginning to end,
unless the instructor allows advanced students to pick their language.  I
chose to use VB 6.0 to write a compiler that blew away the rest of my class
but simply because it looked good and they didn't know how to write in a
visual language, not because it was so different than theirs.  A competent
student doesn't need to be taught another programming language in order to
start using it.

CF does not accomplish most of what needs to be learned in a CS environment.
It's a tool for writing web pages on internet/intranet.  It gets the job
done, depending on the job. 

CF does many things for you - precisely why a curriculum shouldn't use it.
It's why people can learn CF without knowing the nuts and bolts of
programming.  It's also why those people don't get past CF.  I'm not even
sure it should be an option in that curriculum.

- Matt Small


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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Bryan Stevenson]

>>> someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town
> 
> Oh nice, so now *I'm* going to get blamed. ;-)

LOL...I was waiting for that one ;-)

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com/54

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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Bryan Stevenson]

aggghhh!

Doesn't anybody but me get what dave (not Dave W.) is saying!!!

It's not that CFM should be taught as the first langauge.just simply 
that it should be shown to students as an option.

"Today in class boys and girls we are going to have a look at CFML, PHP, and 
ASP as examples of languages to use for the web.  Here's how you process a 
form in each and mail the results to someone"

This is radically different that what Micha/Massimio/Dave W are on about.  I 
think we'd all agree to what you bunch are saying..."CF is not to be used as 
an example of proper programming"...but that ain't what Dave the disruptor 
is on about ;-)

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Rick Mason]

Calvin,
 In a word yes. I think ColdFusion offers a better introduction to 
programming than PHP.
 Even Adobe can't go toe to toe with Microsoft in marketing CF to 
corporations. Macromedia always said that CF was a "bottom up" product.
 Well I can't think of a better way to get CF in the back door of 
corporations than to introduce it to thousands of college students. I refuse 
to believe that it will cripple them from going on to learn OOP and advanced 
languages. 
   Rick Mason


 On 5/4/05, Calvin Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> Effectively, you seem to be saying that education establishments should be
> teaching CF instead of PHP?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Rick Mason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 10:47 AM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
> 
> Micha,
> With all due respect I wasn't advocating if you read my message that they
> only learn CFML.
> Most of the university students in Michigan leave knowing several
> languages, of course they should know c# and java if they're to become
> employable.
> I remain unconvinced that learning CF first is going to somehow handicap
> them in learning advanced languages. In fact I think it's just the 
> opposite,
> 
> the quick productivity building useful stuff is likely to inspire them as
> they learn advanced subjects.
> A great many programmers of my generation first tackled the basic that IBM
> shipped on the first PC XT's. Somehow using things like GoTo's didn't
> prevent me from going on to learn other languages with more advanced
> concepts.
> I still remain convinced that CF would be a great first language in
> colleges and with a little effort it could be dominant in that role.
> Rick Mason
> 
> On 5/4/05, Micha Schopman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I disagree, in the least because the job opportunities for C, C++, C#
> > and Java are much and much larger than those for CF developers.
> >
> > Second, with C# or Java you learn to work with true OOP in a much more
> > advanced environment then CF will ever be. If you for example look at
> > protection levels for every action you take, it will force you to think
> > about the architecture of your application in a way CF will probably
> > never reach.
> >
> > Even then, I don't know how this is in the US, but here university level
> > schools don't really focus on the programming languages, but they focus
> > more on managing a software creation process, writing technical and
> > functional documentation, diagrams, architectures, release management,
> > and then there comes programming.
> >
> > It is nice if students can get a copy of CF cheaper with a school
> > license, but to let schools teach CF, rather not. Every Java developer
> > can program CF, not every CF programmer can do Java.
> >
> > Micha Schopman
> > Project Manager
> >
> > Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort
> > Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
> > KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 

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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Jared Rypka-Hauer - CMG, LLC]

On 5/4/05, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> People seem to be in the habit of comparing Macromedia's stewardship of CF
> to the "good ol' days" of Allaire. Well, Allaire had how many products? 
> One,
> really, unless you count Allaire Forums and Spectra - both of which were
> handled poorly, in my opinion. Oh, I forgot JRun - but neither Allaire nor
> Macromedia really push that at all, they just used it to build a bunch of
> other products.


Uh... Jrun? What's that?

Heh... really, now, boys and girls... Flash/Flex/Central/FlashLite/Flash 
Mobile/FlashPaper and friends. Jrun/CFMX/WPS... Dreamweaver, and Studio MX 
2k4 (which, btw, still includes, by special request, HS+ for us old-school 
hacks)... RoboDemo/RoboHelp and friends... Breeze...

Breeze now has the footing to compete with WebEx and the like.
CFMX now has the technological underpinnings to really give traditional J2EE 
and .NET a run for the money in the Enterprise.
Flex has one competitor, which admittedly r0x0rs, and is free, which means 
that CF/PHP and Flex/OpenLazlo are decent analogies.

These things indicate growth. These things indicate momentum. These things 
are signs that we're on the right track and really shouldn't be wasting time 
and resources bickering about front-page real estate at MM.com. 
I know I'm blending a couple threads here, but first of all, free CFMX would 
mean that those who chose BD over CFMX because of the free edition would 
have more choice, that I would have been able to do at least a dozen more 
projects than I have in the last year (duh, why didn't I use BD? Dunno... 
cuz I'm a nitwit I guess.) and those n00bs who use PHP cuz it's free would 
have their teeth ripped out. I know of several colleges that offer CFMX 
classes as electives, not part of a CSci program, and that's a fine idea. I 
never had a CS class in my life... and I've had to struggle a lot. But, in 
point of fact, it all comes down to market penetration, leverage, and money.

As for the screen real estate issue at MM.com... I seriously think that to 
proclaim to the world that a lack of front-page real estate is a sign of 
MM's mindset is overreaching yourself a bit, dude... back up a bit and let 
them speak for themselves. It's a little pushy to be proclaiming what they 
think for them.

Laterz,
J




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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Dave Watts]

> Get the shit out of your eyes, you simpleton.

While this wasn't directed at me, this kind of response really isn't called
for. Personally, when I want to insult someone on a mailing list, I try to
reach for the rapier rather than the cudgel, if you know what I mean.

> I did not say that I thought CF would die. On the contrary, I 
> stated that I believed the MM would still invest time and 
> resources into CFMX.
> 
> After spending tons of $$$ on a "WORLD TOUR", why the hell 
> would Macromedia NOT highlight the release on their website? 
> Why spend the money on creating awareness and then not put it 
> front and center on release day (and instead leave a 
> WEEKS old banner for Flash video)?
> 
> The speedometer graphic was lame and insufficient, and is 
> reflective of the internal view of CFMX. That's all.
> 
> Riddle me this: why would RedSky get decent attention when it 
> was released? I remember a nice banner and decent info about 
> that release. 
> If I recall, the groundbreaking release of those awesome 
> "FireFly" flash components got more attention at MM.com!.

Well, we can all speculate on this until the cows come home, but why bother?
If you believe that MM will still invest time and resources into CFMX, why
not just let them choose how they want to handle advertising? What does
their "internal view of CFMX" matter, as long as they still invest the
appropriate time and resources into the product? Why do you think you're
more qualified to run their marketing than they are? They have a lot of
diverse products, and a similarly diverse audience of potential and actual
customers. Don't you think that they would spend more time pushing CF if
they thought that this would be more profitable than pushing something else?

People seem to be in the habit of comparing Macromedia's stewardship of CF
to the "good ol' days" of Allaire. Well, Allaire had how many products? One,
really, unless you count Allaire Forums and Spectra - both of which were
handled poorly, in my opinion. Oh, I forgot JRun - but neither Allaire nor
Macromedia really push that at all, they just used it to build a bunch of
other products.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Calvin Ward]

Effectively, you seem to be saying that education establishments should be
teaching CF instead of PHP?

-Original Message-
From: Rick Mason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 10:47 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

Micha,
 With all due respect I wasn't advocating if you read my message that they 
only learn CFML.
 Most of the university students in Michigan leave knowing several 
languages, of course they should know c# and java if they're to become 
employable.
 I remain unconvinced that learning CF first is going to somehow handicap 
them in learning advanced languages. In fact I think it's just the opposite,

the quick productivity building useful stuff is likely to inspire them as 
they learn advanced subjects.
 A great many programmers of my generation first tackled the basic that IBM 
shipped on the first PC XT's. Somehow using things like GoTo's didn't 
prevent me from going on to learn other languages with more advanced 
concepts.
 I still remain convinced that CF would be a great first language in 
colleges and with a little effort it could be dominant in that role.
   Rick Mason

 On 5/4/05, Micha Schopman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> I disagree, in the least because the job opportunities for C, C++, C#
> and Java are much and much larger than those for CF developers.
> 
> Second, with C# or Java you learn to work with true OOP in a much more
> advanced environment then CF will ever be. If you for example look at
> protection levels for every action you take, it will force you to think
> about the architecture of your application in a way CF will probably
> never reach.
> 
> Even then, I don't know how this is in the US, but here university level
> schools don't really focus on the programming languages, but they focus
> more on managing a software creation process, writing technical and
> functional documentation, diagrams, architectures, release management,
> and then there comes programming.
> 
> It is nice if students can get a copy of CF cheaper with a school
> license, but to let schools teach CF, rather not. Every Java developer
> can program CF, not every CF programmer can do Java.
> 
> Micha Schopman
> Project Manager
> 
> Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort
> Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
> KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380
> 
> 
> 



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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Jared Rypka-Hauer - CMG, LLC]

Maybe that was my problem... ;) I thought the WACK was a code dictionary. 
Hehe...

Really Ben, I don't think you'll ever know the depth of your impact on the 
CF community. Without the WACK I'm not sure it would have built up the user 
base in the early days to be what it is today. For me, and for years, your 
stuff was my only source of information.

Now I'm curious... has anyone hand-coded all the samples to create a running 
copy of Orange Whip Studios?

I must admit, I never did... :)

Laterz,
J

On 5/4/05, James Holmes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> ROFL!
> 
> I think the WACK is actually rather good for best practices etc - as long 
> as
> people read the entire thing as they are supposed to.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 11:26
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
> 
> >> someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town
> 
> Oh nice, so now *I'm* going to get blamed. ;-)
> 



-- 
---
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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Ken Ferguson]

LOL, that's funny Ben, not what I meant at all though. The WACK makes it 
incredibly easy to be productive, even when people don't have much in 
the way of experience or knowledge.

--Ferg


James Holmes wrote:

>ROFL!
>
>I think the WACK is actually rather good for best practices etc - as long as
>people read the entire thing as they are supposed to.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 11:26 
>To: CF-Talk
>Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
>
>  
>
>>>someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town
>>>  
>>>
>
>Oh nice, so now *I'm* going to get blamed. ;-)
> 
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Ken Ferguson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 11:22 AM
>To: CF-Talk
>Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
>
>You mean that's not OK??
>
>lol, yeah how many times have we all had to go back over things that were
>done by someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town.
>Hell, I'm sure I caused some problems for other developers back in the day
>when I was just getting started with version 3. I'm sure, try as I do, that
>I still cause some of those sorts of problem when I try to do complex PHP
>and ASP work that is above my level of proficiency.
>
>

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Damien McKenna]

> -Original Message-
> From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> .and remember Micha...not all education happens at the university 
> levelthere are tech schools (no I won't debate the 
> quality of these 
> places) and colleges.  These places spit out an awful lot of 
> Internet career 
> minded folks...and alot of them come out with PHP experience 
> because it's 
> free and the schools run tight budgets.

The Adobe name could help get inroads in this market.  Imagine how many
technical / community colleges have graphic design courses solely
focused on Photoshop & Illustrator and throw in a web design course for
good measure.  Not imagine being able to tell people "in one extra
coures you'll be able to do shopping carts and other amazing things, all
using Adobe tools", that would get their attention.

Just my $0.02, having worked at a college business training department
for two years where they *used* to teach CF.

-- 
Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
#include 

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[James Holmes]

ROFL!

I think the WACK is actually rather good for best practices etc - as long as
people read the entire thing as they are supposed to.

-Original Message-
From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 11:26 
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

>> someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town

Oh nice, so now *I'm* going to get blamed. ;-)
 

-Original Message-
From: Ken Ferguson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 11:22 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

You mean that's not OK??

lol, yeah how many times have we all had to go back over things that were
done by someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town.
Hell, I'm sure I caused some problems for other developers back in the day
when I was just getting started with version 3. I'm sure, try as I do, that
I still cause some of those sorts of problem when I try to do complex PHP
and ASP work that is above my level of proficiency.

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Ben Forta]

>> someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town

Oh nice, so now *I'm* going to get blamed. ;-)
 

-Original Message-
From: Ken Ferguson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 11:22 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

You mean that's not OK??

lol, yeah how many times have we all had to go back over things that were
done by someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to town.
Hell, I'm sure I caused some problems for other developers back in the day
when I was just getting started with version 3. I'm sure, try as I do, that
I still cause some of those sorts of problem when I try to do complex PHP
and ASP work that is above my level of proficiency.

--Ferg

>Yep...you're bang on there Adam.  I'm sure that can be said to a 
>certain degree with any language...but CF does make it easy.  
>Heck..I've seen entire files writtten on a single line!!
>
>Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
>VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group 
>Inc.
>phone: 250.480.0642
>fax: 250.480.1264
>cell: 250.920.8830
>e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>web: www.electricedgesystems.com
>
>  
>




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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Bryan Stevenson]

> why CF doesn't have a chance in educations. For CF there are specific
> trainings, and training centers, hence the Macromedia Certified Trainer
> status.

MichaCF is taught elsewherelike by me (not MM certified and never 
will be) to folks getting re-educated for a new career.

.and remember Micha...not all education happens at the university 
levelthere are tech schools (no I won't debate the quality of these 
places) and colleges.  These places spit out an awful lot of Internet career 
minded folks...and alot of them come out with PHP experience because it's 
free and the schools run tight budgets.

Dave (am I going to say this out loud)has some good points on CF and 
missing the education boat ;-)

Also...I see this OOP argument come up again and again.  We always have to 
remember that the vast majority of web apps out there are not so vast that 
they need the level of architecture you're talking about (hell that's why so 
many are written in PHP).

So with better focus on the new learners and getting those that made up 
their minds that CF was a toy back in the 4.x days to have another look will 
help CF.

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Ken Ferguson]

You mean that's not OK??

lol, yeah how many times have we all had to go back over things that 
were done by someone who just picked up a copy of the WACK and went to 
town. Hell, I'm sure I caused some problems for other developers back in 
the day when I was just getting started with version 3. I'm sure, try as 
I do, that I still cause some of those sorts of problem when I try to do 
complex PHP and ASP work that is above my level of proficiency.

--Ferg

>Yep...you're bang on there Adam.  I'm sure that can be said to a certain 
>degree with any language...but CF does make it easy.  Heck..I've seen entire 
>files writtten on a single line!!
>
>Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
>VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
>Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
>phone: 250.480.0642
>fax: 250.480.1264
>cell: 250.920.8830
>e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>web: www.electricedgesystems.com 
>
>  
>


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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Bryan Stevenson]

> This may not be a popular statemant, but the preception should be
> blamed squarely on CF developers. Being that CF is so easy to get
> into, I've seen my share of horrible buggy apps written by novices...
> which is usually just blamed on CF as whole.
>
> -Adam

Yep...you're bang on there Adam.  I'm sure that can be said to a certain 
degree with any language...but CF does make it easy.  Heck..I've seen entire 
files writtten on a single line!!

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Rick Mason]

Micha,
 With all due respect I wasn't advocating if you read my message that they 
only learn CFML.
 Most of the university students in Michigan leave knowing several 
languages, of course they should know c# and java if they're to become 
employable.
 I remain unconvinced that learning CF first is going to somehow handicap 
them in learning advanced languages. In fact I think it's just the opposite, 
the quick productivity building useful stuff is likely to inspire them as 
they learn advanced subjects.
 A great many programmers of my generation first tackled the basic that IBM 
shipped on the first PC XT's. Somehow using things like GoTo's didn't 
prevent me from going on to learn other languages with more advanced 
concepts.
 I still remain convinced that CF would be a great first language in 
colleges and with a little effort it could be dominant in that role.
   Rick Mason

 On 5/4/05, Micha Schopman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> I disagree, in the least because the job opportunities for C, C++, C#
> and Java are much and much larger than those for CF developers.
> 
> Second, with C# or Java you learn to work with true OOP in a much more
> advanced environment then CF will ever be. If you for example look at
> protection levels for every action you take, it will force you to think
> about the architecture of your application in a way CF will probably
> never reach.
> 
> Even then, I don't know how this is in the US, but here university level
> schools don't really focus on the programming languages, but they focus
> more on managing a software creation process, writing technical and
> functional documentation, diagrams, architectures, release management,
> and then there comes programming.
> 
> It is nice if students can get a copy of CF cheaper with a school
> license, but to let schools teach CF, rather not. Every Java developer
> can program CF, not every CF programmer can do Java.
> 
> Micha Schopman
> Project Manager
> 
> Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort
> Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
> KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380
> 
> 
> 

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Dave Watts]

> What makes any of this a "true" education?
>  I have 3 medical degrees, do you really think to me this 
> stuff would make an "education"?

I don't see how that's relevant, exactly, but any profession has basic
foundational knowledge that is really required for a full understanding of
the profession. Having three medical degrees, would you say that I could be
just as knowledgeable about medicine by spending lots of time on WebMD
reading what symptoms correspond with what problems? I would hope not.
Software engineering, programming, has this sort of foundational knowledge
just like any other profession.

Speaking as someone who approached programming from a non-professional
background, I can't begin to tell you how many conceptual hurdles I had to
cross to learn basic CS concepts that any first-year CS student would know.
I work with a bunch of CS graduates, and if it weren't for that, I wouldn't
know what the hell I was doing. In my experience reviewing others' CF
applications, I've found this to be a common problem with CF programmers.
They often don't know what the hell they're doing! CF makes it so easy to do
the easy things, that people just plow ahead with the hard things without
any sort of understanding about what they're doing.

Of course, I don't mean to tar all CF programmers with this brush, but I can
only say I've made a lot of money reviewing and fixing CF applications built
by people with no CS background.

>  That makes java and OOP kids play and just has about as much 
> to do with my comments as yours back at mine.
>   Doesn't matter what "we" think if it puts food on someones table.

Sure it does. During the boom, people could take a three-day introductory CF
course, start programming, and rake in the dough without knowing what they
were doing. Where are those folks now? They're not putting food on their
tables by writing CF, I can tell you that.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Dave Watts]

> Because... it's not a true development language?

No, because it's not a general-purpose programming language. It's designed
to do one thing, and one thing only - write web applications. It's extremely
good for this, of course, but an introduction to programming shouldn't focus
on one niche.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Dave Watts]

> I have some very personal opinions on this.
> 
> While I really love CF, I would not use CFML to teach 
> programming in schools; for similar reasons I would not use 
> Perl either. I would pick something like Python or Ruby, then 
> move to Java or C#.
> 
> I often tell people that CFML is a great choice if you want 
> to be productive, not so good if your ultimate goal is to 
> learn programming. You better learn programming with another 
> language (even something like Pascal) and move to CFML later.
> 
> In italian universities there are topics considered 
> "propedeutici" (I guess english translation should be 
> "propaedeutic"). It means they are the basics that allow you 
> to move more easily into more advanced topics, bigger and 
> better things, at a later stage. I don't think CFML could be 
> propaedeutic for programming students.
> 
> On the other hand, if you don't care about programming but 
> just want to be productive asap, CFML is a great choice.
> 
> Again, this is just my own opinion, nothing more.

I couldn't have said it any better myself. I think that Python is an ideal
introductory programming language.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Calvin Ward]

Because... it's not a true development language?

-Original Message-
From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 3:37 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

Thank you, but do other people think CF would fit in the unit as a true
education?

Micha Schopman
Project Manager

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380




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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Massimo Foti]

> It's funny Massimo, you more than anything got me into moving to cfm :)

See, now people will consider me guilty for having you here, stirring
trooubles on the list :-))



>  thanks!

I guess the "ladies" argument played a major role here :-)



>  And I hear what you are saying but it's still not what my point was.

I was trying to answer a very specific question from Micha concerning
computer science education, a place where, in my opinion, CFML doesn't fit
well.



> Again I was referencing these people who dont want to be programmers
> but find out that they do need to learn something to be able to function
> or get a good job

Sure, for those people CF is a great choice


Massimo Foti
DW tools: http://www.massimocorner.com
CF tools:  http://www.olimpo.ch/tmt/




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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

It's funny Massimo, you more than anything got me into moving to cfm :)
 thanks!

 And I hear what you are saying but it's still not what my point was. Again I 
was referencing these people who dont want to be programmers but find out that 
they do need to learn something to be able to function or get a good job and 
that is where PHP is HUGE and in all practicality cfm should own that market.

What I am saying is to just get it "in" to these ppl and let them grow into it 
as they need to instead of php.


From: "Massimo Foti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 3:57 AM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

> Thank you, but do other people think CF would fit in the unit as a true
> education?

I have some very personal opinions on this.

While I really love CF, I would not use CFML to teach programming in
schools; for similar reasons I would not use Perl either. I would pick
something like Python or Ruby, then move to Java or C#.

I often tell people that CFML is a great choice if you want to be
productive, not so good if your ultimate goal is to learn programming. You
better learn programming with another language (even something like Pascal)
and move to CFML later.

In italian universities there are topics considered "propedeutici" (I guess
english translation should be "propaedeutic"). It means they are the basics
that allow you to move more easily into more advanced topics, bigger and
better things, at a later stage. I don't think CFML could be propaedeutic
for programming students.

On the other hand, if you don't care about programming but just want to be
productive asap, CFML is a great choice.

Again, this is just my own opinion, nothing more.


Massimo Foti
DW tools: http://www.massimocorner.com
CF tools: http://www.olimpo.ch/tmt/




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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Massimo Foti]

> Thank you, but do other people think CF would fit in the unit as a true
> education?

I have some very personal opinions on this.

While I really love CF, I would not use CFML to teach programming in
schools; for similar reasons I would not use Perl either. I would pick
something like Python or Ruby, then move to Java or C#.

I often tell people that CFML is a great choice if you want to be
productive, not so good if your ultimate goal is to learn programming. You
better learn programming with another language (even something like Pascal)
and move to CFML later.

In italian universities there are topics considered "propedeutici" (I guess
english translation should be "propaedeutic"). It means they are the basics
that allow you to move more easily into more advanced topics, bigger and
better things, at a later stage. I don't think CFML could be propaedeutic
for programming students.

On the other hand, if you don't care about programming but just want to be
productive asap, CFML is a great choice.

Again, this is just my own opinion, nothing more.


Massimo Foti
DW tools: http://www.massimocorner.com
CF tools:  http://www.olimpo.ch/tmt/




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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

What makes any of this a "true" education?
 I have 3 medical degrees, do you really think to me this stuff would make an 
"education"?

 Now if you want an education the way i see it, lets talk about portosystemic 
shunt's or cardiomyopathies and how the region of the world you live affect 
your chances of having a Pulmonary Embolism.

 That makes java and OOP kids play and just has about as much to do with my 
comments as yours back at mine.
  Doesn't matter what "we" think if it puts food on someones table.


From: James Holmes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 3:40 AM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

Probably not, and neither would PHP. 

-Original Message-
From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 3:37 
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

Thank you, but do other people think CF would fit in the unit as a true
education?



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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

" If people as a graphics designer find it hard to learn CF, too bad. I
 want to fly jets too"
Well I could fly a helicopter when I was 14 so thats not a good comparison:)

 I'm breathing just fine dude, obviously our different culture put a barrier 
between what we are saying.

 And you too need to read what I was saying.
 I never once said "cfm was to hard for them to learn"
 My point was that the schools obviously use php because its "free" and readily 
available, so what if Adobe makes cfml free and readily available to them as 
well?
 I never said they would be "teach" cfm classes but instead of them giving the 
students there email code in php they could do it in cfm, since it is easier 
and then these students would be more likely to venture down the cfm highway 
later and learn wherever.

 Now who said anything about making software??
 The point was the lil tiny web sites then probably do nothing more than send 
mail, add, update, delete or show records from a database.
 You don't need OOP for that or make it "software" or add java to it.
 When these comparisons are run and all these schools and kids are using PHP 
for nuthing more than to send mail, how does that accurately describe its use?
 These same ppl would just as easily use cfm if it was "AVAILABLE" to them and 
then they use it down the road, it's simply human nature.

 Do you understand that there are actually web sites out there that are not 
enterprise level sites? That you don't need NASA code to run them?

 " That is why people make choices in
 their lives."
 yes and its up too all of us to show them what the choices are and what might 
be best for them instead of cutting them off because you don't understand that 
the web needs lil web sites as well.

 " Nobody is attacking anyone."
 I know and I am not attacking you either but as usual you write back with your 
"everything must be enterprise level" thinking and try to make a mockery out of 
what my point was, which certainly I might be dilutional and crazy but it makes 
sense to me.

----
From: "Micha Schopman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 3:23 AM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

Easy dave, take a nip of your water ... breathe in ... breathe out ;)
Nobody is attacking anyone.

If you would suggest that CF should be part of teaching in schools, on
which education would you like to see it? Cooking? DTP? neither of them
have anything to do with programming except setting up the microwave by
pressing some buttons. If I ask you, where did you learn CF, should I
like you did throw with bathroom, or local pub? I'd probably say, in
practice on the job. I think a lot of CF developers nowadays just
happened to worked with the language.

Like I said, we have specific educations here, so proof me wrong. We
don't have university classes for PHP, Java, CF, C#, .. what we do have
are educations for Computer Sciences where they teach students how to
manage, setup and complete a software project without even looking at
languages. These are like I previously mentioned the education where
there is a big focus on theory.

Please try to read carefully what I am trying to say. The foundations
for CF programming are too weak in terms of architecturing, which is one
of the most importants aspects of software development. I think that is
why CF doesn't have a chance in educations. For CF there are specific
trainings, and training centers, hence the Macromedia Certified Trainer
status.

If people as a graphics designer find it hard to learn CF, too bad. I
want to fly jets too, but I can't. That is why people make choices in
their lives.

Micha Schopman
Project Manager

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380



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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[James Holmes]

Probably not, and neither would PHP. 

-Original Message-
From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 3:37 
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

Thank you, but do other people think CF would fit in the unit as a true
education?

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Micha Schopman]

Thank you, but do other people think CF would fit in the unit as a true
education?

Micha Schopman
Project Manager

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380


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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[James Holmes]

Actually, we have dedicated units in Java, C, assembly and other languages
as part of or Computer Science and Computer Engineering degrees and other
courses. 

-Original Message-
From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 3:23 
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[snip]

Like I said, we have specific educations here, so proof me wrong. We don't
have university classes for PHP, Java, CF, C#, .. what we do have are
educations for Computer Sciences where they teach students how to manage,
setup and complete a software project without even looking at languages.
These are like I previously mentioned the education where there is a big
focus on theory.

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Micha Schopman]

Easy dave, take a nip of your water ... breathe in ... breathe out ;)
Nobody is attacking anyone.

If you would suggest that CF should be part of teaching in schools, on
which education would you like to see it? Cooking? DTP? neither of them
have anything to do with programming except setting up the microwave by
pressing some buttons. If I ask you, where did you learn CF, should I
like you did throw with bathroom, or local pub? I'd probably say, in
practice on the job. I think a lot of CF developers nowadays just
happened to worked with the language.

Like I said, we have specific educations here, so proof me wrong. We
don't have university classes for PHP, Java, CF, C#, .. what we do have
are educations for Computer Sciences where they teach students how to
manage, setup and complete a software project without even looking at
languages. These are like I previously mentioned the education where
there is a big focus on theory.

Please try to read carefully what I am trying to say. The foundations
for CF programming are too weak in terms of architecturing, which is one
of the most importants aspects of software development. I think that is
why CF doesn't have a chance in educations. For CF there are specific
trainings, and training centers, hence the Macromedia Certified Trainer
status.

If people as a graphics designer find it hard to learn CF, too bad. I
want to fly jets too, but I can't. That is why people make choices in
their lives.

Micha Schopman
Project Manager

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

" but to let schools teach CF, rather not"
 umm ok Micha, if they shouldn't be taught in school where should they be 
taught? In the bathroom at the local pub?

 When are you gunna realize that not every person who uses cfm or java does 
what you do??

 Heres the point Micha, ok we'll use someone I know because he's the perfect 
example of what my reasoning is all about.
 http://www.thisreason.com/

 ok this guy went through graphic design school, as do hundreds of thousands of 
other ppl every year.
 Ok he doesn't really know anything about server side language other than how 
to send an email through his contact form, in which case the graphics 
instructor gives them a php script to use. So then he graduates and realizes 
that graphic designers aren't in too high of demand and the pay sucks but he 
starts to realize that he needs to also know some programming to get a decent 
job. And well of course he has "heard" that cfm is really expensive and at his 
school they gave him a php script, so were is he gunna go to? 
 Why not make cfm available as well and then magic happens, it grows

 Ok so he's a newbie and sucks, well Micha even you were a newbie who sucked at 
one time but now 50 yrs later or whatever you don't
  A) wanna give the newbie a chance to grow and learn or 
  B) help further the use of cfm, so what is your point helping? answer: 
nothing..

 " OOP in a much more
 advanced environment then CF"
 Who gives a rats ass, the world doesn't resolve around OOP and a site wont 
stop functioning because the developer didnt use OOP.
 What do you think the actual % of sites is on the web that actually need that 
type of architecture or that ACTUALLY use it?

 " not every CF programmer can do Java."
 I'm sure that breaks their poor uneducated hearts :(
 FYI~ not every cf programmer needs to do java, I'm pretty sure the only one 
who "needs" to is you ;) hehe

 I mean you bitch about not enough people using cfm but then condemn anyone new 
from the rights to learn it, WTF do you want?

 Do you even know there is a whole big world that exists outside of your head? 
seriously dude


From: "Micha Schopman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 2:34 AM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

I disagree, in the least because the job opportunities for C, C++, C#
and Java are much and much larger than those for CF developers. 

Second, with C# or Java you learn to work with true OOP in a much more
advanced environment then CF will ever be. If you for example look at
protection levels for every action you take, it will force you to think
about the architecture of your application in a way CF will probably
never reach.

Even then, I don't know how this is in the US, but here university level
schools don't really focus on the programming languages, but they focus
more on managing a software creation process, writing technical and
functional documentation, diagrams, architectures, release management,
and then there comes programming.

It is nice if students can get a copy of CF cheaper with a school
license, but to let schools teach CF, rather not. Every Java developer
can program CF, not every CF programmer can do Java. 

Micha Schopman
Project Manager

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380



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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Micha Schopman]

I disagree, in the least because the job opportunities for C, C++, C#
and Java are much and much larger than those for CF developers. 

Second, with C# or Java you learn to work with true OOP in a much more
advanced environment then CF will ever be. If you for example look at
protection levels for every action you take, it will force you to think
about the architecture of your application in a way CF will probably
never reach.

Even then, I don't know how this is in the US, but here university level
schools don't really focus on the programming languages, but they focus
more on managing a software creation process, writing technical and
functional documentation, diagrams, architectures, release management,
and then there comes programming.

It is nice if students can get a copy of CF cheaper with a school
license, but to let schools teach CF, rather not. Every Java developer
can program CF, not every CF programmer can do Java. 

Micha Schopman
Project Manager

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380


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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Rick Mason]

Dave,
 *I hope one of the things Adobe does with cfm is to license its use in 
schools and such for free and use its deep photoshop roots to entrench it in 
a lot of these "designer" programs.
*
That's one of the things that I have campaigned on for the longest time. All 
the Michigan colleges and universities use CF for the business side. But 
only one uses it on the teaching side.
 The first language a lot of these kids learn is PHP, I think all will agree 
that CFML is a much better choice. Guess what the marketing budget for this 
favored position might be? How about zero, so even a slight effort could 
displace it.
 These students may learn C# or java later but they will end up doing their 
personal sites with CF. What do you want to bet that when they end up out in 
the world and want a chance to shine under a tight deadline and/or budget 
they will remember CF?
 I continue to believe it's a great opportunity that's being missed.
   Rick Mason


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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Adrocknaphobia]

This may not be a popular statemant, but the preception should be
blamed squarely on CF developers. Being that CF is so easy to get
into, I've seen my share of horrible buggy apps written by novices...
which is usually just blamed on CF as whole.

-Adam

On 5/3/05, Calvin Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Probably not, however the perception that ColdFusion is not a 'big league'
> application server is more prevalent than some might think.
> 
> Maybe part of that 'big league'ness could be improved by being big on
> Macromedia's front page now and again?
> 
> - Calvin
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 4:46 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
> 
> On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The thread (kinda) started out on marketing CF, and in my experience,
> > this has always been a glaring weakness in how CF is perceived.
> 
> And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad
> banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change
> that perception (about security)?
> --
> Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/
> Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/
> Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away!
> 
> "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
> -- Margaret Atwood
> 
> 

~|
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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Adrocknaphobia]

No, but patching the following issue (which was actually resolved with
a patch in CFMX6) definitely would. :)

http://secunia.com/advisories/15050/

-Adam

On 5/3/05, Sean Corfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The thread (kinda) started out on marketing CF, and in my experience,
> > this has always been a glaring weakness in how CF is perceived.
> 
> And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad
> banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change
> that perception (about security)?
> --
> Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/
> Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/
> Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away!
> 
> "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
> -- Margaret Atwood
> 
> 

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Calvin Ward]

Something they are doing appears to be working quite well.

-Original Message-
From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 6:09 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

A totally different comparison. Comparing a "Microsoft-Horny" business
attitude towards products which need active marketing. But to support your
comparison, Microsoft did an enormous amount of .NET commercials on
television, entire glossy pages in magazine. The difference is however, they
don't have to explain the product. The word "Microsoft" means money for
businesses. The amount of money spend by Microsoft on .NET marketing runs
into millions and millions.
 
 



From: Connie DeCinko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 11:25 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?



Has anyone watched to see if products such as SQL Server, Windows 2003
Server, .NET 2.0 get front page attention at Microsoft.com?


-Original Message-
From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:46 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad
banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change
that perception (about security)?








~|
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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Micha Schopman]

A totally different comparison. Comparing a "Microsoft-Horny" business attitude 
towards products which need active marketing. But to support your comparison, 
Microsoft did an enormous amount of .NET commercials on television, entire 
glossy pages in magazine. The difference is however, they don't have to explain 
the product. The word "Microsoft" means money for businesses. The amount of 
money spend by Microsoft on .NET marketing runs into millions and millions.
 
 



From: Connie DeCinko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 11:25 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?



Has anyone watched to see if products such as SQL Server, Windows 2003
Server, .NET 2.0 get front page attention at Microsoft.com?


-Original Message-
From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:46 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad
banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change
that perception (about security)?






~|
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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Sean Corfield]

On 5/3/05, David Critchley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Can we end this thread... It's turning into a Soap.

Confused? You will be... on next week's episode of cf-talk...
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/
Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away!

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Calvin Ward]

Um, that happened with the first response...

-Original Message-
From: David Critchley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 5:58 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

Can we end this thread... It's turning into a Soap.

>> So to quote a past thread...  "You get what you pay for!"  So, that means
>
>It's called sarcasm...look it up ;-)
>
>Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
>VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
>Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
>phone: 250.480.0642
>fax: 250.480.1264
>cell: 250.920.8830
>e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>web: www.electricedgesystems.com



~|
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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[David Critchley]

Can we end this thread... It's turning into a Soap.

>> So to quote a past thread...  "You get what you pay for!"  So, that means
>
>It's called sarcasm...look it up ;-)
>
>Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
>VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
>Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
>phone: 250.480.0642
>fax: 250.480.1264
>cell: 250.920.8830
>e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>web: www.electricedgesystems.com

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Bryan Stevenson]

> So to quote a past thread...  "You get what you pay for!"  So, that means
> CFMX must be crap?
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:15 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
>
> Well if you take the approach many IT decision makers do...Java costs more
> to develop with...therefore it must be better ;-)

It's called sarcasm...look it up ;-)

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


~|
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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Connie DeCinko]

Just proves to the world that CFMX7 is just a performance upgrade, nothing
else.
 

-Original Message-
From: Alex Sherwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:20 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

What better way is there to emphasize it's prominence and market 
readiness and importance in MM's product offerings than to blow people 
away with a really flashy speedometer graphic! YY!




~|
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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Connie DeCinko]

We all agree, but like when Ben did his tour, no one could agree upon how to
accomplish this.
 

-Original Message-
From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:18 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

If MM can find a way to get those folks to come kick 
the tires again...then we'll see some action




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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Connie DeCinko]

By not showing a banner ad, it gives the impression that CFMX7 is only a
minor update and that there is no need to spend this year's upgrade budget
to get it.  No new features, just a bunch of bug fixes.  Nothing to get
excited about.  Because as we know, every CF Developer subscribes to this
list and already knew about the new version anyway.
 

-Original Message-
From: Alex Sherwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:18 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

And by the way, a banner on MM's site is NOT "advertising". MM's banner 
ad on CNET or Builder.com is advertising!




~|
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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Connie DeCinko]

So to quote a past thread...  "You get what you pay for!"  So, that means
CFMX must be crap?
 

-Original Message-
From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:15 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

Well if you take the approach many IT decision makers do...Java costs more 
to develop with...therefore it must be better ;-)




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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Connie DeCinko]

I'd add to this, giving deep deep discounts to non-profits, especially those
still running CF 4.0 and 4.5!
 

-Original Message-
From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:08 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

 I hope one of the things Adobe does with cfm is to license its use in
schools and such for free and use its deep photoshop roots to entrench it in
a lot of these "designer" programs.




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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Connie DeCinko]

Has anyone watched to see if products such as SQL Server, Windows 2003
Server, .NET 2.0 get front page attention at Microsoft.com?
 

-Original Message-
From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:46 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad
banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change
that perception (about security)?




~|
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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Connie DeCinko]

Actually, he steals it from the neighbors. 


-Original Message-
From: Dave Francis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 12:13 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

If you can afford gas, you're not a CF developer :(

-Original Message-
From: Matt Robertson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 3:06 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?


..and gas for the generator.






~|
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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Alex Sherwood]

Right!

What better way is there to emphasize it's prominence and market 
readiness and importance in MM's product offerings than to blow people 
away with a really flashy speedometer graphic! YY!

--
Alex

Calvin Ward wrote:

>Probably not, however the perception that ColdFusion is not a 'big league'
>application server is more prevalent than some might think.
>
>Maybe part of that 'big league'ness could be improved by being big on
>Macromedia's front page now and again?
>
>- Calvin
>  
>


~|
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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Alex Sherwood]

The spirit of my original post has been lost.

Simply put, I thought it odd that CFMX7 was not featured more 
prominently at MM.com on its release day (or week) like prior CFMX 
releases and other MM products. Ben Forta validated that it was a 
concsious decision on MM's part to NOT put up a banner.

No mention of sales, security, future sales forcasts, etc. Just the 
observation and what it could mean for CFMX if/when Adobe took over.

And by the way, a banner on MM's site is NOT "advertising". MM's banner 
ad on CNET or Builder.com is advertising!


Sean Corfield wrote:

>On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>
>>The thread (kinda) started out on marketing CF, and in my experience,
>>this has always been a glaring weakness in how CF is perceived.
>>
>>
>
>And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad
>banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change
>that perception (about security)?
>  
>


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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Bryan Stevenson]

Oh (*&^^(*&()...looks like my  cf_sarsasm tag got stripped from my response 
to Sean...I was KIDDING...this whole banner ad debate is stupid!! ;-)

CF used to be a "toy" to enterprise developers (let's say version 4.5 and 
earlier).  A lot of them made their decisons back then and have never 
re-investigated CF.  If MM can find a way to get those folks to come kick 
the tires again...then we'll see some action

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com
- Original Message - 
From: "dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Talk" 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?


>"  If I saw one for
> ..NET
> I'd throw all my years of CF out the window and jump ship immeadiately!!"
> I used to see the .net ones but after I loaded up av on the old pc they 
> were removed and reported as security threats ;)
>
> 
> From: "Bryan Stevenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 4:59 PM
> To: CF-Talk 
> Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
>
>> And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad
>> banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change
>> that perception (about security)?
>
> Of course it would SeanI mean everybody knows that banner ads are to
> be trusted beyond your own mother's words of wisdom. If I saw one for
> ...NET
> I'd throw all my years of CF out the window and jump ship immeadiately!!
>
> bah!!
>
> Cheers
>
> Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
> VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
> Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
> phone: 250.480.0642
> fax: 250.480.1264
> cell: 250.920.8830
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: www.electricedgesystems.com/54
>
>
>
> 

~|
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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Bryan Stevenson]

> What makes Java on Websphere better than CFMX on Websphere?
>
> - Calvin

Well if you take the approach many IT decision makers do...Java costs more 
to develop with...therefore it must be better ;-)

Like I said...I showed a bunch of Java developers (high level ones at that) 
CFMX 7 a few weeks backand every one of them saw how much 
easier/faster/cheaper their dev would be with CFMX for J2EE.

The downside is they have provinical govt. clients that all follow the 
herd...so if the ministry next door uses pure Java...then so will they.  I 
mean...we can't have anyone make a real decision and have it be the wrong 
one (not that a switch to CF would be wrong)they could get blamed for 
it...oh my NOO.

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com 


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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

"  If I saw one for 
 ..NET
 I'd throw all my years of CF out the window and jump ship immeadiately!!"
 I used to see the .net ones but after I loaded up av on the old pc they were 
removed and reported as security threats ;)


From: "Bryan Stevenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 4:59 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

> And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad
> banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change
> that perception (about security)?

 Of course it would SeanI mean everybody knows that banner ads are to
 be trusted beyond your own mother's words of wisdom. If I saw one for 
...NET
 I'd throw all my years of CF out the window and jump ship immeadiately!!

bah!!

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com/54 



~|
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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Calvin Ward]

Probably not, however the perception that ColdFusion is not a 'big league'
application server is more prevalent than some might think.

Maybe part of that 'big league'ness could be improved by being big on
Macromedia's front page now and again?

- Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 4:46 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The thread (kinda) started out on marketing CF, and in my experience,
> this has always been a glaring weakness in how CF is perceived.

And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad
banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change
that perception (about security)?
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/
Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away!

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood



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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Calvin Ward]

That's where CF missed out on some marketing.

What makes Java on Websphere better than CFMX on Websphere?

- Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Montgomery Chris Contr AFSFC/SFPA
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 4:05 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

I don't know what the certification status of CF is with the Navy these
days, but I know of at least one app where they were running CF. A couple
years back, some Navy contractors "illicitly procured" the code from the Air
Force office where I work now and set up their own version of our
Vulnerability Assessment Management Program (VAMP). The guy I replaced in
the office where I work now originally authored the Air Force's VAMP program
back in 1998 and it has survived, until now. Alas, AF has decided to switch
to a DOD-wide implementation run out of the Pentagon, and which is
implemented in Java on Websphere, so I'll be scanning the want ads again
soon.  

Time to go dust off my resume...

-- 
//SIGNED//
Chris Montgomery, Contractor 
HQ AF Security Forces Center, Antiterrorism Branch 
1517 Billy Mitchell Blvd, Bldg 954 
Lackland AFB, TX 78236-0119 
DSN 312.945.7034
Comm 210.925.7034


-Original Message-
From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:48 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?


Matt,

I think you are correct about your old boss. He was most likely
referring to a certification and accreditation process for the server.
Anything that runs on a secure government network must be approved
before it use. Maybe at that time the Navy hadn't approved CF.

Working for the Department of State (and currently writing the
documents to get CFMX7 approved for use) it's not a hard task. It's
just a pain and requires alot of documentation.

Right now, only Flash Player 6 is approved for use. However that does
not mean to say that Flash Player 7 isn't secure. It just means no one
has taken the time to write up the appropriate papers.

I can also say I personally know that CF is being used heavily in DoD
and DHS. Heck DoD deployed Breeze to mobile communication units in the
field. DoD is known for being the first in the government to embrace
technology, so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different.

-Adam



~|
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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[dave]

"secure" as in the product or as in "insecure" as in some of the users?

 And to answer Micha:
 I hope one of the things Adobe does with cfm is to license its use in schools 
and such for free and use its deep photoshop roots to entrench it in a lot of 
these "designer" programs.

 Why?
 How many sites out there count as "php" sites because they use 1 php page to 
process an email? But does that make them a php site? I would say no, they only 
use PHP because their teachers hand them a php script to send mail, the same 
way most of us probably used Matts cgi mail script in the past. Of course they 
are just "designers" but many will eventually learn some server side language 
and since they are familiar (loosely) with php they go right 4 that. So my 
point is too make cfm an option to them thats available and it will carry over 
and since Photoshop & illustrator won't be replaced anytime soon they already 
have the market hold. Also educate people more on cfm since the general web 
public is very much uniformed of the actual details of cfm.

 For the record, yeah it woulda been cool to see cfm banners everywhere but I 
also saw MM but some serious cash in marketting where it needed to be, for me 
personally it was Bens tour and the big shabang they put on here in Denver, 
personally showing us in person first hand some of the new things and I would 
take that anyday over a banner ad. Leave the banners for the cash cows that let 
them continue the dev of our beloved product.

 also~ I wouldnt worry about Adobe dissing cfml, think about it, this whole 
deal is a direct threat to m$ and is aimed at the very heart of what m$ planned 
for the future, I seriously doubt they would kill off anything that takes 
business away from them bungholes. And hopefully with the extra cash Adobe has 
they can really market the bejesus outta cfml.

 Like I said before though, I hope they let the MM guys redo their site, haha


From: Sean Corfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 4:47 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite? 

On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun  wrote:
> The thread (kinda) started out on marketing CF, and in my experience,
> this has always been a glaring weakness in how CF is perceived.

And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad
banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change
that perception (about security)?
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/
Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away!

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood



~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Burns, John D]

Yeah, my understanding is also that MM put in some work before the release of 
CF7 to get CF7 and Flash 7 on the approved list for NMCI (Navy-Marine Corps 
Initiative) so I think that sort of work by MM will go a long way to get more 
government and military sites using MM technologies.  That's what Ben and the 
MM crew told us when they did a visit during the Blackstone evangelism tour 
last year.
 
John



From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 3:47 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?



Matt,

I think you are correct about your old boss. He was most likely
referring to a certification and accreditation process for the server.
Anything that runs on a secure government network must be approved
before it use. Maybe at that time the Navy hadn't approved CF.

Working for the Department of State (and currently writing the
documents to get CFMX7 approved for use) it's not a hard task. It's
just a pain and requires alot of documentation.

Right now, only Flash Player 6 is approved for use. However that does
not mean to say that Flash Player 7 isn't secure. It just means no one
has taken the time to write up the appropriate papers.

I can also say I personally know that CF is being used heavily in DoD
and DHS. Heck DoD deployed Breeze to mobile communication units in the
field. DoD is known for being the first in the government to embrace
technology, so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different.

-Adam

On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Based on my experience:
>
> One issue that, IMO, can stand some increased awareness is security.  If
> I had a nickel for every time I had to sit through a "ColdFusion is
> inherently insecure" lecture from some manager with a self-assumed
> programming background, I wouldn't be a programmer.  I'd just buy
> Microsoft and retire.  *I* know that you can develop secure web
> applications in ColdFusion- or insecure ones, if you so decide.  And *I*
> know that the mindset of "If it's Microsoft, it's automatically secure"
> is a load of rubbish.  This isn't MS-bashing, either.  A web-app is as
> secure or insecure as the practices of the developer(s).  Sometimes, I
> feel like I'm the only one who's figured this out, though.
>
> I've even been told that the U.S. Navy (I used to work for a government
> contracting company) won't touch CF because it isn't Certified Secure-
> whatever that's supposed to mean.  Now, that being said, the manager who
> told me that had a well-deserved reputation for making stuff up when he
> didn't have any facts at hand, or when the real fact contradicted his
> opinions, but it sums up probably the biggest issue with CF that I've
> encountered.  Not the cost, or the extra effort to install and
> configure, but the fact that many of the decision-makers I've
> encountered still regard CF as a toy.
>
> Matt Osbun
> Web Developer
> Health Systems, International
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:43 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
>
> To turn this already highly flamable thread into something more usefull,
> how do people think CF should grow, do you think it needs more
> attention? Does it lack important features or should CF be merely a
> "keep it alive" product.
>
> Looking forward to the merge where people suggested that this allowed
> more marketing of the products and where Kevin Lynch stated CF is a core
> business product, and looking at the comments posted in this thread,
> would it suit CF to be marketed more? Why would they spend more on CF
> with marketing if already other products are marketed more? Should CF
> even be marketed, with the chance of losing its type of being a "niche
> product" ?
>
> Would it fit CF if there was a larger community, maybe with a free
> standard version of CF and the enterprise version as the product doing
> the sales?
>
> Just some food for thought, please discuss this with arguments.
>
> Micha
>
> 
>
> From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 8:08 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
>
>
> Honestly Alex...do you think banner ads are what sell CF...if so...think
> again ;-)
>
> Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
> VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
> Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
> phone: 250.480.0642
> fax: 250.480.1264
> cell: 250.920.8830
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: www.electricedgesystems.com
>
>



~~

Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Bryan Stevenson]

> And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad
> banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change
> that perception (about security)?


  Of course it would SeanI mean everybody knows that banner ads are to
  be trusted beyond your own mother's words of wisdom.  If I saw one for 
..NET
  I'd throw all my years of CF out the window and jump ship immeadiately!!


bah!!

Cheers

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com/54 


~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Burns, John D]

Yep, quite a few sites in the NAVAIR community are using them.  Our shop does 
CF, ASP/.NET and Domino development for the Navy.
 
John



From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 3:56 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?



>> so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different

They are not. There is an incredible amount of CF use within the Navy, and I
myself have visited lots of Navy sites briefing them on CFMX7. There will
always be the occasional voice of doubt and opposition, but in general, the
Navy is using CF on both public and secure sites (and even on local networks
running on ships!).

--- Ben



-Original Message-
From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 3:48 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

Matt,

I think you are correct about your old boss. He was most likely referring to
a certification and accreditation process for the server.
Anything that runs on a secure government network must be approved before it
use. Maybe at that time the Navy hadn't approved CF.

Working for the Department of State (and currently writing the documents to
get CFMX7 approved for use) it's not a hard task. It's just a pain and
requires alot of documentation.

Right now, only Flash Player 6 is approved for use. However that does not
mean to say that Flash Player 7 isn't secure. It just means no one has taken
the time to write up the appropriate papers.

I can also say I personally know that CF is being used heavily in DoD and
DHS. Heck DoD deployed Breeze to mobile communication units in the field.
DoD is known for being the first in the government to embrace technology, so
I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different.

-Adam

On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Based on my experience:
>
> One issue that, IMO, can stand some increased awareness is security. 
> If I had a nickel for every time I had to sit through a "ColdFusion is
> inherently insecure" lecture from some manager with a self-assumed
> programming background, I wouldn't be a programmer.  I'd just buy
> Microsoft and retire.  *I* know that you can develop secure web
> applications in ColdFusion- or insecure ones, if you so decide.  And
> *I* know that the mindset of "If it's Microsoft, it's automatically
secure"
> is a load of rubbish.  This isn't MS-bashing, either.  A web-app is as
> secure or insecure as the practices of the developer(s).  Sometimes, I
> feel like I'm the only one who's figured this out, though.
>
> I've even been told that the U.S. Navy (I used to work for a
> government contracting company) won't touch CF because it isn't
> Certified Secure- whatever that's supposed to mean.  Now, that being
> said, the manager who told me that had a well-deserved reputation for
> making stuff up when he didn't have any facts at hand, or when the
> real fact contradicted his opinions, but it sums up probably the
> biggest issue with CF that I've encountered.  Not the cost, or the
> extra effort to install and configure, but the fact that many of the
> decision-makers I've encountered still regard CF as a toy.
>
> Matt Osbun
> Web Developer
> Health Systems, International
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:43 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
>
> To turn this already highly flamable thread into something more
> usefull, how do people think CF should grow, do you think it needs
> more attention? Does it lack important features or should CF be merely
> a "keep it alive" product.
>
> Looking forward to the merge where people suggested that this allowed
> more marketing of the products and where Kevin Lynch stated CF is a
> core business product, and looking at the comments posted in this
> thread, would it suit CF to be marketed more? Why would they spend
> more on CF with marketing if already other products are marketed more?
> Should CF even be marketed, with the chance of losing its type of
> being a "niche product" ?
>
> Would it fit CF if there was a larger community, maybe with a free
> standard version of CF and the enterprise version as the product doing
> the sales?
>
> Just some food for thought, please discuss this with arguments.
>
> Micha
>
> 
>
> From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 8:08 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
>
>
> Honestly Alex...do you think banner ads are what sell CF...if
> so...think again ;-)

RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Damien McKenna]

Depending on the marketing push, it could.

So, when are MM going to hire some freelance writers to write some
pro-CF & pro-CF-security articles for InfoWeek et al?

-- 
Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
#include 
 

> -Original Message-
> From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad
> banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change
> that perception (about security)?


~|
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Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Sean Corfield]

On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The thread (kinda) started out on marketing CF, and in my experience,
> this has always been a glaring weakness in how CF is perceived.

And, just for the record, does anyone think that adding a rotating ad
banner to the home page of macromedia.com would do anything to change
that perception (about security)?
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://fusebox.org/
Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away!

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking 
application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Matt Osbun]

Which is kinda my point.  I've seen a general problem with the
perception of CF- not just in one person, or a small group- but the vast
majority of the IT Decision-Making types I've come across regard CF as a
toy that you'd never use in 'Real Life'.  One IT Director was openly
amazed that an Intranet could be build and secured in ColdFusion.
Another IT Manager asked me when we were going to "graduate to the big
leagues" and move to .ASP for security reasons.  These people weren't
just bashing non-MS products- they just had an incorrect view of CF.


The thread (kinda) started out on marketing CF, and in my experience,
this has always been a glaring weakness in how CF is perceived.

Matt Osbun
Web Developer
Health Systems, International



-Original Message-
From: Ben Forta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:56 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?


>> so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different

They are not. There is an incredible amount of CF use within the Navy,
and I
myself have visited lots of Navy sites briefing them on CFMX7. There
will
always be the occasional voice of doubt and opposition, but in general,
the
Navy is using CF on both public and secure sites (and even on local
networks
running on ships!).

--- Ben



-Original Message-
From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 3:48 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

Matt,

I think you are correct about your old boss. He was most likely
referring to
a certification and accreditation process for the server.
Anything that runs on a secure government network must be approved
before it
use. Maybe at that time the Navy hadn't approved CF.

Working for the Department of State (and currently writing the documents
to
get CFMX7 approved for use) it's not a hard task. It's just a pain and
requires alot of documentation.

Right now, only Flash Player 6 is approved for use. However that does
not
mean to say that Flash Player 7 isn't secure. It just means no one has
taken
the time to write up the appropriate papers.

I can also say I personally know that CF is being used heavily in DoD
and
DHS. Heck DoD deployed Breeze to mobile communication units in the
field.
DoD is known for being the first in the government to embrace
technology, so
I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different.

-Adam

On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Based on my experience:
> 
> One issue that, IMO, can stand some increased awareness is security.  
> If I had a nickel for every time I had to sit through a "ColdFusion is

> inherently insecure" lecture from some manager with a self-assumed 
> programming background, I wouldn't be a programmer.  I'd just buy 
> Microsoft and retire.  *I* know that you can develop secure web 
> applications in ColdFusion- or insecure ones, if you so decide.  And 
> *I* know that the mindset of "If it's Microsoft, it's automatically
secure"
> is a load of rubbish.  This isn't MS-bashing, either.  A web-app is as

> secure or insecure as the practices of the developer(s).  Sometimes, I

> feel like I'm the only one who's figured this out, though.
> 
> I've even been told that the U.S. Navy (I used to work for a 
> government contracting company) won't touch CF because it isn't 
> Certified Secure- whatever that's supposed to mean.  Now, that being 
> said, the manager who told me that had a well-deserved reputation for 
> making stuff up when he didn't have any facts at hand, or when the 
> real fact contradicted his opinions, but it sums up probably the 
> biggest issue with CF that I've encountered.  Not the cost, or the 
> extra effort to install and configure, but the fact that many of the 
> decision-makers I've encountered still regard CF as a toy.
> 
> Matt Osbun
> Web Developer
> Health Systems, International
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:43 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
> 
> To turn this already highly flamable thread into something more 
> usefull, how do people think CF should grow, do you think it needs 
> more attention? Does it lack important features or should CF be merely

> a "keep it alive" product.
> 
> Looking forward to the merge where people suggested that this allowed 
> more marketing of the products and where Kevin Lynch stated CF is a 
> core business product, and looking at the comments posted in this 
> thread, would it suit CF to be marketed more? Why would they spend 
> more on CF with marketing if already other products are marketed mo

RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Montgomery Chris Contr AFSFC/SFPA]

I don't know what the certification status of CF is with the Navy these
days, but I know of at least one app where they were running CF. A couple
years back, some Navy contractors "illicitly procured" the code from the Air
Force office where I work now and set up their own version of our
Vulnerability Assessment Management Program (VAMP). The guy I replaced in
the office where I work now originally authored the Air Force's VAMP program
back in 1998 and it has survived, until now. Alas, AF has decided to switch
to a DOD-wide implementation run out of the Pentagon, and which is
implemented in Java on Websphere, so I'll be scanning the want ads again
soon.  

Time to go dust off my resume...

-- 
//SIGNED//
Chris Montgomery, Contractor 
HQ AF Security Forces Center, Antiterrorism Branch 
1517 Billy Mitchell Blvd, Bldg 954 
Lackland AFB, TX 78236-0119 
DSN 312.945.7034
Comm 210.925.7034


-Original Message-
From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:48 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?


Matt,

I think you are correct about your old boss. He was most likely
referring to a certification and accreditation process for the server.
Anything that runs on a secure government network must be approved
before it use. Maybe at that time the Navy hadn't approved CF.

Working for the Department of State (and currently writing the
documents to get CFMX7 approved for use) it's not a hard task. It's
just a pain and requires alot of documentation.

Right now, only Flash Player 6 is approved for use. However that does
not mean to say that Flash Player 7 isn't secure. It just means no one
has taken the time to write up the appropriate papers.

I can also say I personally know that CF is being used heavily in DoD
and DHS. Heck DoD deployed Breeze to mobile communication units in the
field. DoD is known for being the first in the government to embrace
technology, so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different.

-Adam

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RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Ben Forta]

>> so I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different

They are not. There is an incredible amount of CF use within the Navy, and I
myself have visited lots of Navy sites briefing them on CFMX7. There will
always be the occasional voice of doubt and opposition, but in general, the
Navy is using CF on both public and secure sites (and even on local networks
running on ships!).

--- Ben



-Original Message-
From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 3:48 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

Matt,

I think you are correct about your old boss. He was most likely referring to
a certification and accreditation process for the server.
Anything that runs on a secure government network must be approved before it
use. Maybe at that time the Navy hadn't approved CF.

Working for the Department of State (and currently writing the documents to
get CFMX7 approved for use) it's not a hard task. It's just a pain and
requires alot of documentation.

Right now, only Flash Player 6 is approved for use. However that does not
mean to say that Flash Player 7 isn't secure. It just means no one has taken
the time to write up the appropriate papers.

I can also say I personally know that CF is being used heavily in DoD and
DHS. Heck DoD deployed Breeze to mobile communication units in the field.
DoD is known for being the first in the government to embrace technology, so
I'm not sure why the Navy would be any different.

-Adam

On 5/3/05, Matt Osbun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Based on my experience:
> 
> One issue that, IMO, can stand some increased awareness is security.  
> If I had a nickel for every time I had to sit through a "ColdFusion is 
> inherently insecure" lecture from some manager with a self-assumed 
> programming background, I wouldn't be a programmer.  I'd just buy 
> Microsoft and retire.  *I* know that you can develop secure web 
> applications in ColdFusion- or insecure ones, if you so decide.  And 
> *I* know that the mindset of "If it's Microsoft, it's automatically
secure"
> is a load of rubbish.  This isn't MS-bashing, either.  A web-app is as 
> secure or insecure as the practices of the developer(s).  Sometimes, I 
> feel like I'm the only one who's figured this out, though.
> 
> I've even been told that the U.S. Navy (I used to work for a 
> government contracting company) won't touch CF because it isn't 
> Certified Secure- whatever that's supposed to mean.  Now, that being 
> said, the manager who told me that had a well-deserved reputation for 
> making stuff up when he didn't have any facts at hand, or when the 
> real fact contradicted his opinions, but it sums up probably the 
> biggest issue with CF that I've encountered.  Not the cost, or the 
> extra effort to install and configure, but the fact that many of the 
> decision-makers I've encountered still regard CF as a toy.
> 
> Matt Osbun
> Web Developer
> Health Systems, International
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:43 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
> 
> To turn this already highly flamable thread into something more 
> usefull, how do people think CF should grow, do you think it needs 
> more attention? Does it lack important features or should CF be merely 
> a "keep it alive" product.
> 
> Looking forward to the merge where people suggested that this allowed 
> more marketing of the products and where Kevin Lynch stated CF is a 
> core business product, and looking at the comments posted in this 
> thread, would it suit CF to be marketed more? Why would they spend 
> more on CF with marketing if already other products are marketed more? 
> Should CF even be marketed, with the chance of losing its type of 
> being a "niche product" ?
> 
> Would it fit CF if there was a larger community, maybe with a free 
> standard version of CF and the enterprise version as the product doing 
> the sales?
> 
> Just some food for thought, please discuss this with arguments.
> 
> Micha
> 
> 
> 
> From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tue 5/3/2005 8:08 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?
> 
> 
> Honestly Alex...do you think banner ads are what sell CF...if 
> so...think again ;-)
> 
> Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
> VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group 
> Inc.
> phone: 250.480.0642
> fax: 250.480.1264
> cell: 250.920.8830
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: www.electricedgesystems.co

RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?

[Montgomery Chris Contr AFSFC/SFPA]

Unless you're contracted to work for the government. Heh.

-- 
//SIGNED//
Chris Montgomery, Contractor 
HQ AF Security Forces Center, Antiterrorism Branch 
1517 Billy Mitchell Blvd, Bldg 954 
Lackland AFB, TX 78236-0119 
DSN 312.945.7034
Comm 210.925.7034


-Original Message-
From: Dave Francis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:13 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: CFMX: Dissed by Breeze and FlashLite?


If you can afford gas, you're not a CF developer :(

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