Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Isaac you are insanely smart and you know it... quit rubbing it in. ;) Heh... it's funny, I actually have a mild complex that makes me worry that others perceive me as being egotistical. The other article prior to this one, the Devil Went Down to Silicon Valley, I've edited once or twice after posting the url, just because I realized that for example I hadn't also mentioned that I'm equally as guilty of not working the time into my schedule to experiment with other people's projects, like it took me a while before I got around to examining Reactor for the first time. The article wasn't intended as a dig on anyone, it was intended to be mostly more of a commentary about companies needing to rethink the relationship between work and deadlines to allow their programmers the time to experiment on the clock, which I think would help everyone build better skills and ultimately result in better service for our clients. But I get all self-conscious about putting it out there, thinking people are likely to misread me as bragging. :P I'll readily admit to being advanced -- but I certainly didn't get here overnight. I'm coming up on my 10yr anniversary with ColdFusion and I've had almost no life outside of work for a number of years, which has a lot to do with some personal challenges I'm still working through. -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298624 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I feel the desire to jump in and defend Adam here. It's definitely a different tone the we're used to. But we talk about how ColdFusion gets bashed on Digg and it isn't attracting new developers. Having someone who speaks in the same tone as those audiences isn't a bad thing. If you want gravitas and decorum - Ben's not going anywhere. But Adam opens up the community to a new audience in my humble opinion, and that's a good thing. Gerald Guido [EMAIL PROTECTED] said Personally I do not want an Evangelist for my stack of choice who uses terms like PHP and open sores fanboys in the about section of his blog. Nothing personal, and I am all for free expression, and I am sure he is very good at what he does etc., but I don't want a person with that sort of sophomoric mentality being a spokesperson for a technology I have spent years mastering. Especially in the Enterprise. It doesn't give me warm fuzzies. Terrence Ryan I.T. Director Wharton Computing and Information Technology E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298540 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
On Friday 08 Feb 2008, Gerald Guido wrote: Personally I do not want an Evangelist for my stack of choice who uses terms like PHP and open sores fanboys in the about section of his blog. Depends on context. I do want someone promoting CF who thinks PHP isn't enterprise-ready, for instance. It doesn't give me warm fuzzies. Real Programmers don't have warm fuzzies :-) -- Tom Chiverton Helping to globally target eye-catching segments on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298534 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
On Thursday 07 Feb 2008, Russ wrote: customers. If enough developers feel that this is a good idea and make their voice heard, perhaps Adobe will reconsider it. I think they've heard, considered, and rejected. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to simultaneously unleash world-class design-patterns on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298533 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I think sometimes we sulk off to places like here and complain when someone says CF is dead. I used to think it wasn't dignified to duke it out with some of the fanboys. But I have changed my mind. So now I have made it a point to challenge these guys sometimes. I took the time to learn Rails a while back. Why is it I am knowledgeable about their language but they can criticize mine without knowing it? Tell these guys to download and spend a weekend with the developer edition of CF-8 and then come back and tell me I am all wet when I say CF defines RAD. Paul Graham says we should all learn a language a year. Lets make this the year we tell our critics to master Coldfusion or stop criticizing it! Rick Mason On Feb 8, 2008 10:13 AM, Ryan, Terrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I feel the desire to jump in and defend Adam here. It's definitely a different tone the we're used to. But we talk about how ColdFusion gets bashed on Digg and it isn't attracting new developers. Having someone who speaks in the same tone as those audiences isn't a bad thing. If you want gravitas and decorum - Ben's not going anywhere. But Adam opens up the community to a new audience in my humble opinion, and that's a good thing. Gerald Guido [EMAIL PROTECTED] said Personally I do not want an Evangelist for my stack of choice who uses terms like PHP and open sores fanboys in the about section of his blog. Nothing personal, and I am all for free expression, and I am sure he is very good at what he does etc., but I don't want a person with that sort of sophomoric mentality being a spokesperson for a technology I have spent years mastering. Especially in the Enterprise. It doesn't give me warm fuzzies. Terrence Ryan I.T. Director Wharton Computing and Information Technology E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298550 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I have to agree. Isn't it about time we all got a little smug? On Feb 8, 2008 10:13 AM, Ryan, Terrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I feel the desire to jump in and defend Adam here. It's definitely a different tone the we're used to. But we talk about how ColdFusion gets bashed on Digg and it isn't attracting new developers. Having someone who speaks in the same tone as those audiences isn't a bad thing. If you want gravitas and decorum - Ben's not going anywhere. But Adam opens up the community to a new audience in my humble opinion, and that's a good thing. -- http://www.web-rat.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298541 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
On Thursday 07 Feb 2008, Raymond Camden wrote: Shoot, as it stands, CF is more free as you don't have to be a student to run it on your own machine for nothing. See my (unanswered) post last week, about what CFML engines are free to use in production (i.e. without limits like 3 IP address, for instance), and support (say) RemoteObject calls's from Flex. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to assertively establish vertical experiences on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298537 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Isn't that because the price of dollar really fell? Or is that equivalent to inflation? Russ -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 1:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Mark Fuqua wrote: It is interesting, that while the developer community has been belly achin' about prices for cf, Adobe has actually raised the price for enterprise 50%. You just have an inflation problem, for people outside the US the price has gone down. Jochem ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298559 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Mark Fuqua wrote: It is interesting, that while the developer community has been belly achin' about prices for cf, Adobe has actually raised the price for enterprise 50%. You just have an inflation problem, for people outside the US the price has gone down. Jochem ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298556 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I have to agree. Isn't it about time we all got a little smug? As long as I don't have to use words like playa hater and represent. There's nothing sadder than an egg-headed gen-x post-hippie white-guy like me trying to talk street. When I do it somebody really should be mimicking the Family Guy scene the power of Christ compells you! :) -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298602 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Paul Graham says we should all learn a language a year. Lets make this the year we tell our critics to master Coldfusion or stop criticizing it! I guess that would mean I'd have to learn Ruby pretty soon. http://ontap.riaforge.org/blog/index.cfm/2008/2/8/Maintainability Doh! -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298603 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Isaac you are insanely smart and you know it... quit rubbing it in. ;) Whirled peas, G On Feb 8, 2008 8:05 PM, s. isaac dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Graham says we should all learn a language a year. Lets make this the year we tell our critics to master Coldfusion or stop criticizing it! I guess that would mean I'd have to learn Ruby pretty soon. http://ontap.riaforge.org/blog/index.cfm/2008/2/8/Maintainability Doh! -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298605 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
If someone from adobe sat down with me and gave me some constructive criticism on my business, I would definitely take it under consideration. Why do you know someone? Russ -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 1:11 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better All the evidence we can gather points to the fact that Allaire, Macromedia and now Adobe are profitable with the ColdFusion pricing model exactly as it stands. So, there's very little motivation to address their marketing approach. If they were losing money on ColdFusion, I think you'd see them either doing more marketing, or dropping the product line entirely. If they are making good money on it, and it's mostly from the enterprise sector, wouldn't it make sense to let the educational institutions have it for free? This way enterprise would have a better pool of talent, and are more likely to get CF/stick with CF in the coming years. Look everyone has to make sacrifices in order to be competitive. MS released SQL Express in response to MYSQL and PostgreSQL. Oracle released Oracle Lite. Even though this might've caused a hit for their sales of SQL Server standard and workgroup, they are probably getting more sales for SQL Server Enterprise, and less people moving to free platforms. If some guy from Adobe told you how to run your business, wouldn't that be a bit presumptuous? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298451 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
If they are making good money on it, and it's mostly from the enterprise sector, wouldn't it make sense to let the educational institutions have it for free? This way enterprise would have a better pool of talent, and are more likely to get CF/stick with CF in the coming years. I don't have any good answers as to why the owners of CF haven't done some of the obvious things that would improve its adoption, other than that they haven't been forced to do so. With Macromedia and now Adobe, their success as a whole is not dependent on the success of CF, so I imagine they focus their marketing efforts on their more popular product lines. There are only so many person-hours to go around, and I imagine that any product line that is profitable with essentially zero marketing effort is not going to have additional person-hours assigned to it. This is probably much less frustrating for Adobe than it is for us developers. -- Josh ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298450 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
On a related note, according to James Ward from Adobe (who visited my user group last night) the educational pricing for Flex is free. I would definitely be in favor of similar educational pricing for CF. I learned CF in college in my spare time, but NOT because of the developer edition but rather due to a friend who owned a CF server and let me host their for free. If it hadn't been for that there's no way I would have bothered with CF when I couldn't actually use it for real on my personal site to experiment with. I would have probably gone over to Perl or PHP. ~Brad -Original Message- From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 11:55 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better If they are making good money on it, and it's mostly from the enterprise sector, wouldn't it make sense to let the educational institutions have it for free? This way enterprise would have a better pool of talent, and are more likely to get CF/stick with CF in the coming years. Look everyone has to make sacrifices in order to be competitive. MS released SQL Express in response to MYSQL and PostgreSQL. Oracle released Oracle Lite. Even though this might've caused a hit for their sales of SQL Server standard and workgroup, they are probably getting more sales for SQL Server Enterprise, and less people moving to free platforms. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298448 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
If they are making good money on it, and it's mostly from the enterprise sector, wouldn't it make sense to let the educational institutions have it for free? This way enterprise would have a better pool of talent, and are more likely to get CF/stick with CF in the coming years. Look everyone has to make sacrifices in order to be competitive. MS released SQL Express in response to MYSQL and PostgreSQL. Oracle released Oracle Lite. Even though this might've caused a hit for their sales of SQL Server standard and workgroup, they are probably getting more sales for SQL Server Enterprise, and less people moving to free platforms. Russ -Original Message- From: Josh Nathanson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Well it's a bit hard for CF, because of the pricing model. CF is priced per Server, meanwhile all the other technologies you mention can be hosted for (relatively) free. .NET makes it up by selling more Windows Server licenses, and PHP and RoR are free. All the evidence we can gather points to the fact that Allaire, Macromedia and now Adobe are profitable with the ColdFusion pricing model exactly as it stands. So, there's very little motivation to address their marketing approach. If they were losing money on ColdFusion, I think you'd see them either doing more marketing, or dropping the product line entirely. -- Josh ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298447 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
If someone from adobe sat down with me and gave me some constructive criticism on my business, I would definitely take it under consideration. What makes you think that, over the last ten years that people have been arguing about this, Allaire/Macromedia/Adobe didn't take it under consideration and reject it? Why do you know someone? Not anyone who's going to tell you how to run your business, no. But you know that Ben Forta and the rest of the product evangelists are plugged into this list and other well-known CF resources, so presumably someone at Adobe has heard all of these criticisms before. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298452 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Or perhaps create a new license type - academic vs educational, which would let you use the server as part of the classroom, but not to host the university's own website for example. Russ -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:17 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Another important thing about running a business is listening to your customers. If enough developers feel that this is a good idea and make their voice heard, perhaps Adobe will reconsider it. That might be true in many cases. However, you're essentially asking them to give something away that they're selling now. Generally, the way you influence prices is by choosing to buy or not buy a product. If you tell Adobe that they should lower the price, or give more product away, and you continue to buy the product yourself, you probably won't convince them to change their pricing model. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298474 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
That would require a classroom with powerful enough computers that can run CF. That's a pretty large investment. I know in my university, all the students have laptops, so it would be a lot easier to have a shared server and have all of the students put their work there. CF will run just fine on any laptop made in the last few years. I'm able to run CF on my laptop, which has a Core Solo processor, 1 GB of RAM, and Vista. It would also teach them more about what goes on in the real world ... In the real world, people buy CF licenses. One CF Standard license would be sufficient if you really needed a shared server. I'm not sure what the EDU pricing is for that, but I imagine it's not too expensive - it'll probably be cheaper than the dedicated server hardware needed. ... as most developers develop straight on the server, and a lot of times straight on the productions server. Because people develop on production servers? That's a lousy justification for classroom setup. Having each student install CF and IIS or apache on their own PC might be a bit of a pain, and laptops in general are not very good choice for running CF servers, although I know some people are doing it, including me. You don't need a separate web server for development. It's very easy to install CF using the built-in web server. Those who are just taking this as a class, might not appreciate their laptop slowing down because of CF though. They could easily be taught how to manually start and stop services, I think. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298483 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
On Feb 7, 2008 2:29 PM, Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That would require a classroom with powerful enough computers that can run CF. That's a pretty large investment. I know in my university, all the students have laptops, so it would be a lot easier to have a shared server and have all of the students put their work there. It would also teach them more about what goes on in the real world, as most developers develop straight on the server, and a lot of times straight on the productions server. CF runs pretty well on even older machines. Remember this is just one person hitting one app server. Having each student install CF and IIS or apache on their own PC might be a bit of a pain, and laptops in general are not very good choice for running CF servers, although I know some people are doing it, including me. Those who are just taking this as a class, might not appreciate their laptop slowing down because of CF though. Um, if they are in school learning to be a web developer, than frankly they need to deal with it. The same would apply to PHP as well. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298480 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Setup a start/stop bat script to turn things off when you're not in class? I think server setup SHOULD be part of the class IMHO. On Feb 7, 2008 3:29 PM, Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having each student install CF and IIS or apache on their own PC might be a bit of a pain, and laptops in general are not very good choice for running CF servers, although I know some people are doing it, including me. Those who are just taking this as a class, might not appreciate their laptop slowing down because of CF though. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298479 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
If all of this has been heard before, should've we have seen an official response to this somewhere? What would you expect their response to be, other than we'll consider this? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298478 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
That would require a classroom with powerful enough computers that can run CF. That's a pretty large investment. I know in my university, all the students have laptops, so it would be a lot easier to have a shared server and have all of the students put their work there. It would also teach them more about what goes on in the real world, as most developers develop straight on the server, and a lot of times straight on the productions server. Having each student install CF and IIS or apache on their own PC might be a bit of a pain, and laptops in general are not very good choice for running CF servers, although I know some people are doing it, including me. Those who are just taking this as a class, might not appreciate their laptop slowing down because of CF though. Russ -Original Message- From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better As a student you typically do not have to pay to be able to put up a hosted PHP page. Most universities give their students free web accounts and most of those accounts have access to PHP. At least that has been my experience with three major Universities here in Texas. There are of course limitations to what you can do, for example I know the University of Houston provides the accounts, PHP, and even Oracle accounts but I do not think they provide a way for students to run PHP pages that connect to the Oracle database. I personally do not see why a class could not be taught using no more than the developer version of CF. Each workstation would have it loaded up as would the teacher's machine. On Feb 7, 2008 1:56 PM, Raymond Camden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Flex is client side technology. Guess what - the client for CF, which would be you running CF on your own machine, is also free. Shoot, as it stands, CF is more free as you don't have to be a student to run it on your own machine for nothing. Now your argument stating that you would only learn it if you could host it - I'm not sure I'd say thats a common belief - but you have to pay for PHP hosting as well. On Feb 7, 2008 12:03 PM, Brad Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On a related note, according to James Ward from Adobe (who visited my user group last night) the educational pricing for Flex is free. I would definitely be in favor of similar educational pricing for CF. I learned CF in college in my spare time, but NOT because of the developer edition but rather due to a friend who owned a CF server and let me host their for free. If it hadn't been for that there's no way I would have bothered with CF when I couldn't actually use it for real on my personal site to experiment with. I would have probably gone over to Perl or PHP. ~Brad -- == = Raymond Camden, Camden Media Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog : www.coldfusionjedi.com AOL IM : cfjedimaster Keep up to date with the community: http://www.coldfusionbloggers.org ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298477 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Not anyone who's going to tell you how to run your business, no. But you know that Ben Forta and the rest of the product evangelists are plugged into this list and other well-known CF resources, so presumably someone at Adobe has heard all of these criticisms before. If all of this has been heard before, should've we have seen an official response to this somewhere? I remember at the last CFUnited people brought up that CF should be marketed better to universities. And they're like yea yea we should... but they never did anything about it to my knowledge. Russ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298476 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
As a student you typically do not have to pay to be able to put up a hosted PHP page. Most universities give their students free web accounts and most of those accounts have access to PHP. At least that has been my experience with three major Universities here in Texas. There are of course limitations to what you can do, for example I know the University of Houston provides the accounts, PHP, and even Oracle accounts but I do not think they provide a way for students to run PHP pages that connect to the Oracle database. I personally do not see why a class could not be taught using no more than the developer version of CF. Each workstation would have it loaded up as would the teacher's machine. On Feb 7, 2008 1:56 PM, Raymond Camden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Flex is client side technology. Guess what - the client for CF, which would be you running CF on your own machine, is also free. Shoot, as it stands, CF is more free as you don't have to be a student to run it on your own machine for nothing. Now your argument stating that you would only learn it if you could host it - I'm not sure I'd say thats a common belief - but you have to pay for PHP hosting as well. On Feb 7, 2008 12:03 PM, Brad Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On a related note, according to James Ward from Adobe (who visited my user group last night) the educational pricing for Flex is free. I would definitely be in favor of similar educational pricing for CF. I learned CF in college in my spare time, but NOT because of the developer edition but rather due to a friend who owned a CF server and let me host their for free. If it hadn't been for that there's no way I would have bothered with CF when I couldn't actually use it for real on my personal site to experiment with. I would have probably gone over to Perl or PHP. ~Brad -- === Raymond Camden, Camden Media Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog : www.coldfusionjedi.com AOL IM : cfjedimaster Keep up to date with the community: http://www.coldfusionbloggers.org ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298475 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Another important thing about running a business is listening to your customers. If enough developers feel that this is a good idea and make their voice heard, perhaps Adobe will reconsider it. That might be true in many cases. However, you're essentially asking them to give something away that they're selling now. Generally, the way you influence prices is by choosing to buy or not buy a product. If you tell Adobe that they should lower the price, or give more product away, and you continue to buy the product yourself, you probably won't convince them to change their pricing model. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298472 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
-Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 1:56 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better If someone from adobe sat down with me and gave me some constructive criticism on my business, I would definitely take it under consideration. What makes you think that, over the last ten years that people have been arguing about this, Allaire/Macromedia/Adobe didn't take it under consideration and reject it? Another important thing about running a business is listening to your customers. If enough developers feel that this is a good idea and make their voice heard, perhaps Adobe will reconsider it. Russ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298466 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Flex is client side technology. Guess what - the client for CF, which would be you running CF on your own machine, is also free. Shoot, as it stands, CF is more free as you don't have to be a student to run it on your own machine for nothing. Now your argument stating that you would only learn it if you could host it - I'm not sure I'd say thats a common belief - but you have to pay for PHP hosting as well. On Feb 7, 2008 12:03 PM, Brad Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On a related note, according to James Ward from Adobe (who visited my user group last night) the educational pricing for Flex is free. I would definitely be in favor of similar educational pricing for CF. I learned CF in college in my spare time, but NOT because of the developer edition but rather due to a friend who owned a CF server and let me host their for free. If it hadn't been for that there's no way I would have bothered with CF when I couldn't actually use it for real on my personal site to experiment with. I would have probably gone over to Perl or PHP. ~Brad -- === Raymond Camden, Camden Media Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog : www.coldfusionjedi.com AOL IM : cfjedimaster Keep up to date with the community: http://www.coldfusionbloggers.org ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298468 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Well it's a bit hard for CF, because of the pricing model. CF is priced per Server, meanwhile all the other technologies you mention can be hosted for (relatively) free. .NET makes it up by selling more Windows Server licenses, and PHP and RoR are free. All the evidence we can gather points to the fact that Allaire, Macromedia and now Adobe are profitable with the ColdFusion pricing model exactly as it stands. So, there's very little motivation to address their marketing approach. If they were losing money on ColdFusion, I think you'd see them either doing more marketing, or dropping the product line entirely. -- Josh ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298446 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
As a freelance developer (I am sure many on this list are), my simple mind that tells me that 'to CF or not to CF' boils down to this cycle: The more small-biz/enterprise ask CF by name equals The more jobs are for CF developers equals The more developers are to take on CF (versus PHP,RoR,.NET) equals The more small-biz ask CF by name equals The more Adobe sells CF servers But guess what? There's not a whole lot of small-biz/enterprise asking CF by name. And I don't think anyone here will dispute that. If you check out craigslist, dice, monster, etc... demand for PHP developers far out number demand for CF developers. If you dispute that, you are in denial. So, what is Adobe doing so the freelance developers like me have MORE customers that ask Coldfusion by name? That might be true in many cases. However, you're essentially asking them to give something away that they're selling now. Generally, the way you influence prices is by choosing to buy or not buy a product. If you tell Adobe that they should lower the price, or give more product away, and you continue to buy the product yourself, you probably won't convince them to change their pricing model. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298482 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
We have seen an official response: http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/buy/ :) Will -Original Message- From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 February 2008 19:57 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Not anyone who's going to tell you how to run your business, no. But you know that Ben Forta and the rest of the product evangelists are plugged into this list and other well-known CF resources, so presumably someone at Adobe has heard all of these criticisms before. If all of this has been heard before, should've we have seen an official response to this somewhere? I remember at the last CFUnited people brought up that CF should be marketed better to universities. And they're like yea yea we should... but they never did anything about it to my knowledge. Russ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298481 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Largely compatible does not mean compatible. I had to make a bunch of changes just upgrading from 7 to 8. I'm sorry to hear that. However, the vast majority of syntax is the same, and there are plenty of CF applications written for 5 and earlier that will simply run, as is, on CF 8. And, of course, there's a huge difference between making a bunch of changes and REWRITING YOUR ENTIRE APPLICATION. Are you saying that you can't run classic asp sites on IIS 6/7? I'm saying that Microsoft created a CF competitor, found it wanting, and replaced it with something completely different. People who invested their time and effort learning classic ASP had to essentially throw that knowledge away to build new applications with the new tools Microsoft provided. Overnight, Microsoft turned the value of knowing ASP into something like the value of knowing COBOL - great for maintaining applications, not so great for building new applications. I guess those ASP people could ask for their money back, though. That is obviously not the case with CF. There are new things to know about CF 8, of course, but you write CFQUERY, CFOUTPUT, etc the same in CF 8 as you would in CF 3. I've been teaching the official CF curriculum since CF 3. It's amazing how much of it hasn't changed! CFC's are largely a new language that was totally not available in 4.5 and so are functions. I don't remember when CFSCRIPT was added, but that's pretty much a new language. The addition of new features has nothing to do with continued support of existing features. To use any of these new features, you can integrate new code into your existing code base at your own pace. If you have a classic ASP application, and you want to add some nifty ASP.NET functionality (user controls, code-behind, etc) you have to REWRITE YOUR ENTIRE APPLICATION. If you fail to see the difference, you are either blind or you bill by the hour. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298495 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
It is interesting, that while the developer community has been belly achin' about prices for cf, Adobe has actually raised the price for enterprise 50%. It might also be worth noting that cs3 web premium, which I recently purchased (upgrade thankfully) is priced at 1600. Considerably higher than cf standard. Mark -Original Message- From: Will Swain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better We have seen an official response: http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/buy/ :) Will -Original Message- From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 February 2008 19:57 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Not anyone who's going to tell you how to run your business, no. But you know that Ben Forta and the rest of the product evangelists are plugged into this list and other well-known CF resources, so presumably someone at Adobe has heard all of these criticisms before. If all of this has been heard before, should've we have seen an official response to this somewhere? I remember at the last CFUnited people brought up that CF should be marketed better to universities. And they're like yea yea we should... but they never did anything about it to my knowledge. Russ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298484 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
All the evidence we can gather points to the fact that Allaire, Macromedia and now Adobe are profitable with the ColdFusion pricing model exactly as it stands. So, there's very little motivation to address their marketing approach. If they were losing money on ColdFusion, I think you'd see them either doing more marketing, or dropping the product line entirely. If they are making good money on it, and it's mostly from the enterprise sector, wouldn't it make sense to let the educational institutions have it for free? This way enterprise would have a better pool of talent, and are more likely to get CF/stick with CF in the coming years. Look everyone has to make sacrifices in order to be competitive. MS released SQL Express in response to MYSQL and PostgreSQL. Oracle released Oracle Lite. Even though this might've caused a hit for their sales of SQL Server standard and workgroup, they are probably getting more sales for SQL Server Enterprise, and less people moving to free platforms. If some guy from Adobe told you how to run your business, wouldn't that be a bit presumptuous? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298449 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
-Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:32 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better I would guess the same thing that happened to CF 4.5, which I would consider to be the ASP classic of those days. It got upgraded to newer and better things. CFML written for a 4.5 server is largely compatible with CF 8. I just upgraded a CF 4.5 server to CF 8. Classic ASP doesn't use the same languages as ASP.NET. Largely compatible does not mean compatible. I had to make a bunch of changes just upgrading from 7 to 8. Are you saying that you can't run classic asp sites on IIS 6/7? CFC's are largely a new language that was totally not available in 4.5 and so are functions. I don't remember when CFSCRIPT was added, but that's pretty much a new language. Russ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298494 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I would guess the same thing that happened to CF 4.5, which I would consider to be the ASP classic of those days. It got upgraded to newer and better things. CFML written for a 4.5 server is largely compatible with CF 8. I just upgraded a CF 4.5 server to CF 8. Classic ASP doesn't use the same languages as ASP.NET. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298493 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't CFSCRIPT been around since CF 3 (1997) CFC's are largely a new language that was totally not available in 4.5 and so are functions. I don't remember when CFSCRIPT was added, but that's pretty much a new language. -- William E. Seiter Have you ever read a book that changed your life? Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com Enter passkey: goldengrove Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer http://William.Seiter.com ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298497 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Even though there are objections, I would be willing to accept a CF class requiring the developer edition to be installed on all lab machines. Keep in mind though that installation and configuration of the application server might be outside of the scope of the curriculum for that class if is an entry level course. Regardless of the classroom talk though, my last post was more targeted at the college students who are going to spend four years experimenting in their dorm room writing apps in every language they can get their hands on. These are the resume-holding people that graduate and go out into the world and help drive up or down the numbers of available programmers for a particular language. When I was in college learning how to build web apps for the first time, I wanted something I could actually put on the internet and tell my mom to go look at. ColdFusion developer edition would not have been that answer for me. Without my friend letting me use his server I would have certainly used my personal site on the school server which only offered Perl and PHP. Why? Because they were free. I experimented with a number of Microsoft apps while I was in college and graduated with some knowledge of them. Why? Because Microsoft courted my school (along with any other educational institution) and offered tons of free _fully functional_ Microsoft software for me to play with for the duration of my student-hood. If Adobe doesn't want to do that, I understand-- It is their decision. But, I gotta' say as bitter-sweet as my feelings are for Microsoft, I think that was a smart move on their part. I really, really want to see large scale adoption of CF, Flex, Air, etc. That's why I am in favor of anything which will help that. ~Brad -Original Message- From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 2:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better As a student you typically do not have to pay to be able to put up a hosted PHP page. Most universities give their students free web accounts and most of those accounts have access to PHP. At least that has been my experience with three major Universities here in Texas. There are of course limitations to what you can do, for example I know the University of Houston provides the accounts, PHP, and even Oracle accounts but I do not think they provide a way for students to run PHP pages that connect to the Oracle database. I personally do not see why a class could not be taught using no more than the developer version of CF. Each workstation would have it loaded up as would the teacher's machine. On Feb 7, 2008 1:56 PM, Raymond Camden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298485 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
On Feb 7, 2008 5:38 PM, Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: CFC's are largely a new language that was totally not available in 4.5 and so are functions. I don't remember when CFSCRIPT was added, but that's pretty much a new language. If you can run a CF 4.5 site that contains mostly includes, modules and custom tags on a CF8 box, then there's seriously something wrong with the code. =) -- http://www.web-rat.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298498 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Er.. I meant to say, if you can't - sorry... distracted by the better half. On Feb 7, 2008 6:05 PM, Todd Rafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 7, 2008 5:38 PM, Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: CFC's are largely a new language that was totally not available in 4.5and so are functions. I don't remember when CFSCRIPT was added, but that's pretty much a new language. If you can run a CF 4.5 site that contains mostly includes, modules and custom tags on a CF8 box, then there's seriously something wrong with the code. =) -- http://www.web-rat.com/ -- http://www.web-rat.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298499 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
You keep saying that Adobe is targeting the enterprise. Most enterprises I know are not using ColdFusion, and are using .NET because .Net is more enterprisey. If they have money and want to invest in the JAVA technology, they will go for something like Websphere. I didn't say they were successfully targeting the enterprise - although I think they are, based on the sales I've seen - or that most enterprises are using CF - I don't ever expect to see CF be the dominant web application server. I said they're targeting the enterprise. I think that's fairly self-evident, based on their pricing model. Again, though, it doesn't really matter whether it's the dominant technology, to Adobe - the only thing that matters to Adobe is whether they're maximizing their profit. And, for what it's worth, I've seen several environments with CF on WebSphere. ColdFusion is just not an enterprise ready technology, and it won't be until they at least support x64. Very few enterprises are using x64 for production application servers, as far as I can tell. Most enterprises, again as far as I can tell, are not early adopters. The enterprises I'm working with, that are using CF, would disagree with your characterization of CF as not enterprise-ready. Your observations may be different from mine, of course. ColdFusion is best aimed at SMBs IMHO. They are the ones that can make the most use of it, and they are the ones that I feel make up the bulk of Adobe's revenues for Cf. Again, this is a matter of your opinion. Your opinion (and mine, for that matter) are irrelevant, since neither of us are responsible for CF pricing and licensing at Adobe. I don't know why I bother responding to these threads, though. People have been griping about CF pricing/marketing/evangelism since it was an Allaire product. CF continues to be a relatively successful niche product, despite everyone's prediction of imminent doom for over ten years. I wonder how many people'll be using RoR in ten years. I wonder what Microsoft will have replaced ASP.NET with in ten years. Whatever happened to poor old classic ASP, anyway? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298491 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't CFSCRIPT been around since CF 3 (1997) No, I'm pretty sure it was introduced in 4.x. I seem to recall it was 4.0.1, but I'm not entirely sure. The ability to write functions in CFSCRIPT wasn't introduced until CF 5, though. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298500 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
On Feb 7, 2008 3:26 PM, Dave Watts wrote: So, what is Adobe doing so the freelance developers like me have MORE customers that ask Coldfusion by name? It isn't Adobe's job to make you successful at your business. That's your job. Personally, I would love to see Adobe doing all sorts of stuff like you suggest. I'd love to see them give CF away. My company provides CF training, among other things. But I don't expect Adobe to run their business to benefit me, and I give them the benefit of the doubt that they've done their best to maximize their own profits. Okay, I've stayed out of this ludicrous discussion until the above post came through. Dave, preach on my friend! I could not possibly have stated it as well as you just did. Thank you! :-) ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298489 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
-Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 4:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better The more small-biz/enterprise ask CF by name equals The more jobs are for CF developers equals The more developers are to take on CF (versus PHP,RoR,.NET) equals The more small-biz ask CF by name equals The more Adobe sells CF servers This is not necessarily true. Especially the last part. If you're using shared hosting, it's not necessarily the case that more shared hosting clients means more CF server licenses. It might be very likely in many cases, though, I guess. But even if it is true, it's not necessarily relevant to Adobe. What's relevant to Adobe - or any company selling any product - is to maximize profits on the products they sell. If that means selling 100 copies at $1 million apiece, or selling 1 million copies at $100 each, so be it. Now, unless people at Adobe are throwing darts at a pricing chart while blindfolded, they've presumably spent some time figuring out elasticity of demand, support costs per product sale, etc. And, they've concluded that they're better off targeting the enterprise. You may agree or disagree, but pricing their products is their prerogative. You keep saying that Adobe is targeting the enterprise. Most enterprises I know are not using ColdFusion, and are using .NET because .Net is more enterprisey. If they have money and want to invest in the JAVA technology, they will go for something like Websphere. ColdFusion is just not an enterprise ready technology, and it won't be until they at least support x64. ColdFusion is best aimed at SMBs IMHO. They are the ones that can make the most use of it, and they are the ones that I feel make up the bulk of Adobe's revenues for Cf. Russ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298488 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
The more small-biz/enterprise ask CF by name equals The more jobs are for CF developers equals The more developers are to take on CF (versus PHP,RoR,.NET) equals The more small-biz ask CF by name equals The more Adobe sells CF servers This is not necessarily true. Especially the last part. If you're using shared hosting, it's not necessarily the case that more shared hosting clients means more CF server licenses. It might be very likely in many cases, though, I guess. But even if it is true, it's not necessarily relevant to Adobe. What's relevant to Adobe - or any company selling any product - is to maximize profits on the products they sell. If that means selling 100 copies at $1 million apiece, or selling 1 million copies at $100 each, so be it. Now, unless people at Adobe are throwing darts at a pricing chart while blindfolded, they've presumably spent some time figuring out elasticity of demand, support costs per product sale, etc. And, they've concluded that they're better off targeting the enterprise. You may agree or disagree, but pricing their products is their prerogative. I don't think Adobe is interested in directly competing with free software. I suspect they believe there's not much profit there. So, what is Adobe doing so the freelance developers like me have MORE customers that ask Coldfusion by name? It isn't Adobe's job to make you successful at your business. That's your job. Personally, I would love to see Adobe doing all sorts of stuff like you suggest. I'd love to see them give CF away. My company provides CF training, among other things. But I don't expect Adobe to run their business to benefit me, and I give them the benefit of the doubt that they've done their best to maximize their own profits. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298487 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Yes, Cfscript in 4.0 released Nov 1998... still over 9 years ago -- William E. Seiter Have you ever read a book that changed your life? Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com Enter passkey: goldengrove Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer http://William.Seiter.com -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't CFSCRIPT been around since CF 3 (1997) No, I'm pretty sure it was introduced in 4.x. I seem to recall it was 4.0.1, but I'm not entirely sure. The ability to write functions in CFSCRIPT wasn't introduced until CF 5, though. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298502 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
-Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:19 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better ---snip--- I don't know why I bother responding to these threads, though. People have been griping about CF pricing/marketing/evangelism since it was an Allaire product. CF continues to be a relatively successful niche product, despite everyone's prediction of imminent doom for over ten years. I wonder how many people'll be using RoR in ten years. I wonder what Microsoft will have replaced ASP.NET with in ten years. Whatever happened to poor old classic ASP, anyway? I would guess the same thing that happened to CF 4.5, which I would consider to be the ASP classic of those days. It got upgraded to newer and better things. Russ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298492 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
No, I'm pretty sure it was introduced in 4.x. I seem to recall it was 4.0.1, but I'm not entirely sure. I bet Ben Forta could tell us half asleep with both eyes closed. He's a master of random CF version history factoids. :) ~Brad ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298504 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I don't know why I bother responding to these threads, though. I don't know either. Perhaps because you have invested heavily in CF like many of us here? People have been griping about CF pricing/marketing/evangelism since it was an Allaire product. True. However, ColdFusion taught me the *experiential meaning* of FUD. Which is why this thread has gone on so long and also why I am learning Java and ..NET. The point is: People are jumping ship or at least getting prepared to. FUD is in the air and is *palpable*. I was briefly placated by Adobe's hiring a new Evangelist until I read the by line on his blog. Personally I do not want an Evangelist for my stack of choice who uses terms like PHP and open sores fanboys in the about section of his blog. Nothing personal, and I am all for free expression, and I am sure he is very good at what he does etc., but I don't want a person with that sort of sophomoric mentality being a spokesperson for a technology I have spent years mastering. Especially in the Enterprise. It doesn't give me warm fuzzies. On Feb 7, 2008 5:18 PM, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You keep saying that Adobe is targeting the enterprise. Most enterprises I know are not using ColdFusion, and are using .NET because .Net is more enterprisey. If they have money and want to invest in the JAVA technology, they will go for something like Websphere. I didn't say they were successfully targeting the enterprise - although I think they are, based on the sales I've seen - or that most enterprises are using CF - I don't ever expect to see CF be the dominant web application server. I said they're targeting the enterprise. I think that's fairly self-evident, based on their pricing model. Again, though, it doesn't really matter whether it's the dominant technology, to Adobe - the only thing that matters to Adobe is whether they're maximizing their profit. And, for what it's worth, I've seen several environments with CF on WebSphere. ColdFusion is just not an enterprise ready technology, and it won't be until they at least support x64. Very few enterprises are using x64 for production application servers, as far as I can tell. Most enterprises, again as far as I can tell, are not early adopters. The enterprises I'm working with, that are using CF, would disagree with your characterization of CF as not enterprise-ready. Your observations may be different from mine, of course. ColdFusion is best aimed at SMBs IMHO. They are the ones that can make the most use of it, and they are the ones that I feel make up the bulk of Adobe's revenues for Cf. Again, this is a matter of your opinion. Your opinion (and mine, for that matter) are irrelevant, since neither of us are responsible for CF pricing and licensing at Adobe. I don't know why I bother responding to these threads, though. People have been griping about CF pricing/marketing/evangelism since it was an Allaire product. CF continues to be a relatively successful niche product, despite everyone's prediction of imminent doom for over ten years. I wonder how many people'll be using RoR in ten years. I wonder what Microsoft will have replaced ASP.NET with in ten years. Whatever happened to poor old classic ASP, anyway? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298509 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I don't know either. Perhaps because you have invested heavily in CF like many of us here? I am more invested in the defense of common sense. I think that the people who are complaining about how Adobe isn't giving CF away, or getting it into schools, etc, have unrealistic expectations about (a) what exactly Adobe can do and (b) whether it's in Adobe's best interest to do so. True. However, ColdFusion taught me the *experiential meaning* of FUD. I'm not sure what that means. Which is why this thread has gone on so long and also why I am learning Java and ..NET. The point is: People are jumping ship or at least getting prepared to. FUD is in the air and is *palpable*. Again, this is nothing new. People have been doomsaying about CF since before there was, say, ASP. People have been jumping ship all this time. And, of course, everyone knows best how to make CF more popular than the people actually selling the product. And yet, CF is still here. Well, this thread, or one very much like it, goes on so long every time it comes up, probably about once or twice a year. You should certainly learn Java or .NET or both anyway, because they're good things to know, but I wouldn't do it solely on account of this thread. I was briefly placated by Adobe's hiring a new Evangelist until I read the by line on his blog. So one admittedly juvenile crack on a personal blog outweighs the fact that Adobe is taking CF evangelism more seriously? He doesn't represent your stack of choice any more than Steve Ballmer represents .NET. Developers, developers, DEVELOPERS! Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298513 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
But guess what? There's not a whole lot of small-biz/enterprise asking CF by name. And I don't think anyone here will dispute that. If you check out craigslist, dice, monster, etc... demand for PHP developers far out number demand for CF developers. If you dispute that, you are in denial. I certainly don't deny that's the case on craigslist. I do however take issue with craigslist being used as a benchmark for determining the interest in ColdFusion and the assumption that there is a direct relationship between interest and profitability. Throughout the world, there's immense interest in water, though until very recently there was very little profit in it, and ultimately what surprising profit there is to be had in water these days is largely an effect of marketing spin i.e. commercial con artistry. There is conversely very little, you might say even miniscule interest in WebSphere compared to the interest in water, and by most accounts WebSphere is pretty profitable ostensibly with much less in the way of commercial deception. At some point in the future, Adobe may become more interested in the long tail (SMB) instead of targeting the enterprise. It may or may not be beneficial to them now or in the future. But even with every last scrap of information that's available with regards to the market (number of consumers, amount of money they're spending, etc. etc.) the execs at Adobe responsible for pricing are probably not getting it 100% correct, simply because economics is almost on par with quantum physics in its complexity. I don't think I'm likely to be able to accurately judge how on-target Adobe is by looking at craigslist and seeing that there are fewer CF jobs for me to bid on than there are PHP or ASP jobs. -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298516 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Every computer lab I have been in within the past 3 years has had computers that could easily handle the needs of CF and even CF and MSSQL Express. This includes 4 Universities and 3 community colleges. I had to install CF onto my personal laptop within the past year for a class that was not even CF related at all, it just had a bunch of examples in a CFM application and the book detailed how to install the developer version and how to run it. Out of the 45 or so people in the class, I do not recall one person complaining about anything in regards to the CF. On Feb 7, 2008 2:29 PM, Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That would require a classroom with powerful enough computers that can run CF. That's a pretty large investment. I know in my university, all the students have laptops, so it would be a lot easier to have a shared server and have all of the students put their work there. It would also teach them more about what goes on in the real world, as most developers develop straight on the server, and a lot of times straight on the productions server. Having each student install CF and IIS or apache on their own PC might be a bit of a pain, and laptops in general are not very good choice for running CF servers, although I know some people are doing it, including me. Those who are just taking this as a class, might not appreciate their laptop slowing down because of CF though. Russ -Original Message- From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better As a student you typically do not have to pay to be able to put up a hosted PHP page. Most universities give their students free web accounts and most of those accounts have access to PHP. At least that has been my experience with three major Universities here in Texas. There are of course limitations to what you can do, for example I know the University of Houston provides the accounts, PHP, and even Oracle accounts but I do not think they provide a way for students to run PHP pages that connect to the Oracle database. I personally do not see why a class could not be taught using no more than the developer version of CF. Each workstation would have it loaded up as would the teacher's machine. On Feb 7, 2008 1:56 PM, Raymond Camden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Flex is client side technology. Guess what - the client for CF, which would be you running CF on your own machine, is also free. Shoot, as it stands, CF is more free as you don't have to be a student to run it on your own machine for nothing. Now your argument stating that you would only learn it if you could host it - I'm not sure I'd say thats a common belief - but you have to pay for PHP hosting as well. On Feb 7, 2008 12:03 PM, Brad Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On a related note, according to James Ward from Adobe (who visited my user group last night) the educational pricing for Flex is free. I would definitely be in favor of similar educational pricing for CF. I learned CF in college in my spare time, but NOT because of the developer edition but rather due to a friend who owned a CF server and let me host their for free. If it hadn't been for that there's no way I would have bothered with CF when I couldn't actually use it for real on my personal site to experiment with. I would have probably gone over to Perl or PHP. ~Brad -- == = Raymond Camden, Camden Media Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog : www.coldfusionjedi.com AOL IM : cfjedimaster Keep up to date with the community: http://www.coldfusionbloggers.org ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298517 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Correct. However there is a direct relationship between interest and getting a job. I was responding to a comment about (paraphrase) Adobe should do something to improve adoption amongst SMB because they'll sell more licenses. So yup, agree with you there -- but I wasn't arguing against this. -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298521 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
No, I'm pretty sure it was introduced in 4.x. I seem to recall it was 4.0.1, but I'm not entirely sure. I bet Ben Forta could tell us half asleep with both eyes closed. He's a master of random CF version history factoids. :) I should hope so! He's been the product evangelist since before I started working with it. :) -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298518 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Our entire CF based RAD tool was built originally for CF3 and upgraded some for 4 and never touched since then. We had to change one page when we went to CF6 and nothing for CF7 or CF8. The one page we had to change, we had to change a handful of references to #URL# to #Variables.URL#. On Feb 7, 2008 4:38 PM, Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:32 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better I would guess the same thing that happened to CF 4.5, which I would consider to be the ASP classic of those days. It got upgraded to newer and better things. CFML written for a 4.5 server is largely compatible with CF 8. I just upgraded a CF 4.5 server to CF 8. Classic ASP doesn't use the same languages as ASP.NET. Largely compatible does not mean compatible. I had to make a bunch of changes just upgrading from 7 to 8. Are you saying that you can't run classic asp sites on IIS 6/7? CFC's are largely a new language that was totally not available in 4.5 and so are functions. I don't remember when CFSCRIPT was added, but that's pretty much a new language. Russ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298519 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I do however take issue with craigslist being used as a benchmark for determining the interest in ColdFusion and the assumption that there is a direct relationship between interest and profitability. Correct. However there is a direct relationship between interest and getting a job. On Feb 7, 2008 8:53 PM, s. isaac dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But guess what? There's not a whole lot of small-biz/enterprise asking CF by name. And I don't think anyone here will dispute that. If you check out craigslist, dice, monster, etc... demand for PHP developers far out number demand for CF developers. If you dispute that, you are in denial. I certainly don't deny that's the case on craigslist. I do however take issue with craigslist being used as a benchmark for determining the interest in ColdFusion and the assumption that there is a direct relationship between interest and profitability. Throughout the world, there's immense interest in water, though until very recently there was very little profit in it, and ultimately what surprising profit there is to be had in water these days is largely an effect of marketing spin i.e. commercial con artistry. There is conversely very little, you might say even miniscule interest in WebSphere compared to the interest in water, and by most accounts WebSphere is pretty profitable ostensibly with much less in the way of commercial deception. At some point in the future, Adobe may become more interested in the long tail (SMB) instead of targeting the enterprise. It may or may not be beneficial to them now or in the future. But even with every last scrap of information that's available with regards to the market (number of consumers, amount of money they're spending, etc. etc.) the execs at Adobe responsible for pricing are probably not getting it 100% correct, simply because economics is almost on par with quantum physics in its complexity. I don't think I'm likely to be able to accurately judge how on-target Adobe is by looking at craigslist and seeing that there are fewer CF jobs for me to bid on than there are PHP or ASP jobs. -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298520 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/editions/#s4 Developer edition is free. All that's left is the will to learn. I'll bet that as Adobe merges more applications together like the are doing now (LiveCycle, CF, Flex, etc.) and make everything PDF compatible, the market share will increase. The ability to create, manage, and work with PDFs is a powerful incentive. Hopefully that will overcome the price point issue - if hosting companies don't put it on their servers it makes it hard to justify coding applications in it. Warren ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298522 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
The problem with that Dave is that even the Enterprise customers won't be able to find developers eventually, if the small business and educational use is left behind. We're already starting to see this developer shortage and eventually companies are going to get tired of having to train developers when they can use other platforms and pull from a readily-available pool of trained and experienced people. It may not be considered the most forward thinking answer, but Adobe also has a pretty long history of pulling their fat out of the frier and of managing to popularize technologies that nobody wants. PDF for example when it was first introduced was given the response of documents that look the same on different machines? Who the hell needs that? -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298304 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Thanks Josh. I hadn't really looked through them recently, though I was thinking specifically about case studies of companies moving to CF from competing technologies like PHP or MS SharePoint. It was my impression (though I could be wrong) that their case studies were generally confined to new projects rather than having any focus on platform transitions. Showing platform transitions would be good cases for showing comparative strength of the technology to give people an idea of areas where CF may be better suited for a specific project. Having more of that focus out there might produce better results with regard to what we perceive as an overall bad rep for ColdFusion where people are always leaving in droves from a technology that's been around since before all the others were even conceived and yet shows no particular signs of going anywhere any time soon. :P Just wasn't sure if I'd made that notion clear in my previous post. :) Hey, if any of you would like to write some of those articles for Fusion Authority, we'd be happy to put them out there on the website. But - as one of the admins here, I do have to remind that this thread is OT for this technical mailing list and should be moved to CF-OT. Judith ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298313 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Taken out of the Crayola case study: *Macromedia Products: *Five Macromedia ColdFusion Studio 4.5, 4 Macromedia ColdFusion Enterprise 4.5.1, Macromedia Flash, Dreamweaver, Dreamweaver UltraDev, Fireworks, FreeHand And this is just an example of the content of these case studies! Really, either Adobe take out these slightly ;-) outdated pages, or they revamp/update them a little... A prospect or IT who is shown this kind of page will run away from CF, IMHO!!! (I just hope this doesn't reflect the commitment level of Adobe...) Albert On 2/5/08, Josh Nathanson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They should put out a request specifically for people who are switching to CF to contact them for use in their marketing materials as case studies. They might get for example that FigLeaf client Dave Watts mentioned. Good idea. They do have quite a few case studies already, but you can never have too many. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/customers/ -- Josh - Original Message - From: s. isaac dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:19 PM Subject: Re: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be What can Adobe do to promote ColdFusion? CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a few years now. I just want to see the articles that say Yeah, we're migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and integrated platform. They should put out a request specifically for people who are switching to CF to contact them for use in their marketing materials as case studies. They might get for example that FigLeaf client Dave Watts mentioned. -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298317 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Well it's always possible that Crayola JUST switched away from that. :) -Original Message- From: Beru [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 8:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Taken out of the Crayola case study: *Macromedia Products: *Five Macromedia ColdFusion Studio 4.5, 4 Macromedia ColdFusion Enterprise 4.5.1, Macromedia Flash, Dreamweaver, Dreamweaver UltraDev, Fireworks, FreeHand And this is just an example of the content of these case studies! Really, either Adobe take out these slightly ;-) outdated pages, or they revamp/update them a little... A prospect or IT who is shown this kind of page will run away from CF, IMHO!!! (I just hope this doesn't reflect the commitment level of Adobe...) Albert On 2/5/08, Josh Nathanson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They should put out a request specifically for people who are switching to CF to contact them for use in their marketing materials as case studies. They might get for example that FigLeaf client Dave Watts mentioned. Good idea. They do have quite a few case studies already, but you can never have too many. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/customers/ -- Josh - Original Message - From: s. isaac dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:19 PM Subject: Re: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be What can Adobe do to promote ColdFusion? CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a few years now. I just want to see the articles that say Yeah, we're migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and integrated platform. They should put out a request specifically for people who are switching to CF to contact them for use in their marketing materials as case studies. They might get for example that FigLeaf client Dave Watts mentioned. -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298319 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
The problem with that Dave is that even the Enterprise customers won't be able to find developers eventually, if the small business and educational use is left behind. We're already starting to see this developer shortage and eventually companies are going to get tired of having to train developers when they can use other platforms and pull from a readily-available pool of trained and experienced people. I just wonder if there isn't more that we as a community can do to pressure Adobe or at least try to make them see the error of this approach. Seriously, there is simply no way they will be successful long-term targeting solely an Enterprise market and that's just going to hurt all of us in the end. The only way you can pressure a company is to not buy its products. And, for what it's worth, targeting the enterprise is what every Java vendor does - even the open-source ones. You don't see small businesses or freelancers building J2EE web applications. I wonder how Java's doing? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298327 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
The only way you can pressure a company is to not buy its products. I'm not sure that's entirely true. It may be the *best* way, but not the *only* way. Have we really gotten the word out as a community to Adobe in terms of what we are seeing and the trends that are happening? Sales numbers alone are just not going to give the whole picture. And, for what it's worth, targeting the enterprise is what every Java vendor does - even the open-source ones. You don't see small businesses or freelancers building J2EE web applications. I wonder how Java's doing? The difference is that Java is widely taught in schools, and people know if they learn it they will have no trouble finding a jobthus, there is hardly a lack of experienced developers for it. The reverse is true for CFit is a rare college that has classes for it, developers don't see it as a technology worthy of learning or that will help them get a good job, and thus experienced coders are harder and harder to find. Do you really think enterprises will keep using CF if the number of developers that know it continue to drop? We're used to seeing the posts about CF dying, etc. particularly from outside the community...but we're hearing more and more from inside the community about problems finding developers, companies having to switch to .NET, etc. due to lack of experienced coders, and that just is not going to be something that strictly marketing to the Enterprise is going to fix. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298361 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Isn't MS targeting enterprise customers as well? However, they made it easy to get access to developers and tools. Giving away free copies to universities, and having light versions of things available for free (SQL Express, Visual Studio Express, etc). Russ -Original Message- From: Mary Jo Sminkey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 1:57 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better The only way you can pressure a company is to not buy its products. I'm not sure that's entirely true. It may be the *best* way, but not the *only* way. Have we really gotten the word out as a community to Adobe in terms of what we are seeing and the trends that are happening? Sales numbers alone are just not going to give the whole picture. And, for what it's worth, targeting the enterprise is what every Java vendor does - even the open-source ones. You don't see small businesses or freelancers building J2EE web applications. I wonder how Java's doing? The difference is that Java is widely taught in schools, and people know if they learn it they will have no trouble finding a jobthus, there is hardly a lack of experienced developers for it. The reverse is true for CFit is a rare college that has classes for it, developers don't see it as a technology worthy of learning or that will help them get a good job, and thus experienced coders are harder and harder to find. Do you really think enterprises will keep using CF if the number of developers that know it continue to drop? We're used to seeing the posts about CF dying, etc. particularly from outside the community...but we're hearing more and more from inside the community about problems finding developers, companies having to switch to .NET, etc. due to lack of experienced coders, and that just is not going to be something that strictly marketing to the Enterprise is going to fix. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298365 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I'm not sure that's entirely true. It may be the *best* way, but not the *only* way. Have we really gotten the word out as a community to Adobe in terms of what we are seeing and the trends that are happening? I don't even know what that means. Purchasing a product doesn't make you a member of a community, in any meaningful sense, unless that product is a house. Who speaks for this community? What are we seeing? The trends that you are seeing may not be the trends that I'm seeing. Sales numbers alone are just not going to give the whole picture. I strongly suspect that they're the only part of the picture that Adobe's interested in looking at. The difference is that Java is widely taught in schools, and people know if they learn it they will have no trouble finding a jobthus, there is hardly a lack of experienced developers for it. The reverse is true for CFit is a rare college that has classes for it, developers don't see it as a technology worthy of learning or that will help them get a good job, and thus experienced coders are harder and harder to find. Do you really think enterprises will keep using CF if the number of developers that know it continue to drop? We're used to seeing the posts about CF dying, etc. particularly from outside the community...but we're hearing more and more from inside the community about problems finding developers, companies having to switch to .NET, etc. due to lack of experienced coders, and that just is not going to be something that strictly marketing to the Enterprise is going to fix. Java is widely taught in schools because it is a good teaching language, and the point of a CS degree is to learn how to program, not how to program in language X. CF is emphatically NOT suitable for this purpose. But any CS student worth his salt can pick up CF very quickly. I don't see any evidence that the number of CF developers is decreasing, either. The plural of anecdote is not data. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298379 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I have not seen any evidence of this either and actually what I have seen is CF developers looking for work and having a hard time finding things in their areas. I can not speak for all companies but I know the one I do work for went away from CF not because of lack of developers at all. Somehow their head IT Architect got sold in the idea that CF was a dying language and that becoming a MS shop was the way to go. I also know that some people high up in the company got a little annoyed when MACR and Adobe did some audits, not sure what the reasons for the annoyance was but I know it happened and that sour taste just gave more fuel to the fire for change. On Feb 6, 2008 1:51 PM, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see any evidence that the number of CF developers is decreasing, either. The plural of anecdote is not data. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298409 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Well it's a bit hard for CF, because of the pricing model. CF is priced per Server, meanwhile all the other technologies you mention can be hosted for (relatively) free. .NET makes it up by selling more Windows Server licenses, and PHP and RoR are free. Microsoft has done a good job advertising to universities, where they pretty much give away a copy of Visual Studio to every student. This is something that is free for them, and it helps push the universities to teach .NET, and C#, etc. Once students graduate, they will bring these skills to the workplace, and MS will make money by selling more Windows Servers (for hosting), and Visual Studio (for development). Although Adobe has free development editions, the educational editions are not free (I think they should be). I believe every university should run their websites in CF as a marketing tool. (Mine recently converted from CF 4.5 to PHP. If they were using MX+, I doubt they would've converted). Adobe should also push to have ColdFusion taught as part of the curriculum (at least as an elective) instead of ASP.NET, or at least as an alternative. They should provide free and easy educational materials that teachers can use to teach CF. I would love to volunteer to teach CF in my alma mater, but I wouldn't even know where to start in terms of teaching materials. Having a lab with a CF server on every computer is going to require powerful hardware, and running a developer edition on a shared server is not allowed as per Adobe. Maybe if Adobe got their act together, we'd have a lot more graduates actually knowing what CF is and not thinking that it's a piece of crap that most people remember from the v 4.5 days. Just my $0.02 Russ As I sit here, a newbie at learning Cold Fusion, I'm thinking back to the fact that since I first got my taste of Dreamweaver and Cold Fusion back in 1999, I've been a Zealot. I was taught Dreamweaver but only enough Cold Fusion (by my Zealot Instructor) to learn how to do a mailback form. When I compared how clean the code was to Active Server Pages, I was done. Nothing runs as clean and stable as Cold Fusion, with as deep a set of capabilities. The downside is that it's so hard to find a place to learn it, unless one takes it upone oneself to do so, which I finally have the time to do. Here I sit at 1:30AM, really too bleary eyed to be typing. I myself have some consternation at Adobe and Macromedia for their price points on Cold Fusion and their unwillingness to make it more competative with .NET and other technologies, and not making it more available to the academic community. I don't know bupkis yet about Cold Fusion but I've seen what it CAN do; and IMHO it's the Ferrarri of Web Application Development technology and the rest are also-rans. It's too bad that it's such a hard sell to middle and lower level business. Clean, stable, extensible, fits like a glove with Dreamweaver. So, what else can anyone want? I hate working in anything else, although I do if I'm forced to. Signed, The old Newbie Zealot. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298415 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Sure...I'm sure that interview was done about 2 or 3 months ago. -Original Message- From: Todd Rafferty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:29 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Too late. Looks like they've already converted ( http://www.uline.com/ ). On Feb 5, 2008 9:23 AM, Cutter (CFRelated) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This morning I read something disturbing. Weekly I get InformationWeek, which really caters more to CIOs and SysAds more than developers. That's part of why what I read disturbed me so much. They run a weekly column titled CIO Values, in which they profile some CIO or CTO from a variety of industries. Someone who has provided value to their company, and the companies they've worked with before. This week they profiled Bill Santille of Uline, a 'Shipping Supply Specialist' if Google has it right. (http://tinyurl.com/2fsj74) In the article they have the interviewee's 'Three top initiatives' that they are working towards. In Mr Santille's he states, in his second initiative: Rewrite entire sales/customer service application by replacing green-screen application with Java... But, his third initiative states: Replace current Web-based front end for Internet transactions with Microsoft .Net code. The existing platform is written in ColdFusion... OK, from an integration standpoint it would definitely make more sense to stay with ColdFusion, being that it's J2EE native. So, where is this guy's thinking? Well, he probably doesn't know any better. What's worse, it's published in a nationally distributed magazine to IT executives. Hey Adobe! Somebody needs to talk to this guy -- http://www.web-rat.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298188 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
This morning I read something disturbing. Weekly I get InformationWeek, which really caters more to CIOs and SysAds more than developers. That's part of why what I read disturbed me so much. They run a weekly column titled CIO Values, in which they profile some CIO or CTO from a variety of industries. Someone who has provided value to their company, and the companies they've worked with before. This week they profiled Bill Santille of Uline, a 'Shipping Supply Specialist' if Google has it right. (http://tinyurl.com/2fsj74) In the article they have the interviewee's 'Three top initiatives' that they are working towards. In Mr Santille's he states, in his second initiative: Rewrite entire sales/customer service application by replacing green-screen application with Java... But, his third initiative states: Replace current Web-based front end for Internet transactions with Microsoft .Net code. The existing platform is written in ColdFusion... OK, from an integration standpoint it would definitely make more sense to stay with ColdFusion, being that it's J2EE native. So, where is this guy's thinking? Well, he probably doesn't know any better. What's worse, it's published in a nationally distributed magazine to IT executives. Hey Adobe! Somebody needs to talk to this guy -- Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298183 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Too late. Looks like they've already converted ( http://www.uline.com/ ). On Feb 5, 2008 9:23 AM, Cutter (CFRelated) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This morning I read something disturbing. Weekly I get InformationWeek, which really caters more to CIOs and SysAds more than developers. That's part of why what I read disturbed me so much. They run a weekly column titled CIO Values, in which they profile some CIO or CTO from a variety of industries. Someone who has provided value to their company, and the companies they've worked with before. This week they profiled Bill Santille of Uline, a 'Shipping Supply Specialist' if Google has it right. (http://tinyurl.com/2fsj74) In the article they have the interviewee's 'Three top initiatives' that they are working towards. In Mr Santille's he states, in his second initiative: Rewrite entire sales/customer service application by replacing green-screen application with Java... But, his third initiative states: Replace current Web-based front end for Internet transactions with Microsoft .Net code. The existing platform is written in ColdFusion... OK, from an integration standpoint it would definitely make more sense to stay with ColdFusion, being that it's J2EE native. So, where is this guy's thinking? Well, he probably doesn't know any better. What's worse, it's published in a nationally distributed magazine to IT executives. Hey Adobe! Somebody needs to talk to this guy -- http://www.web-rat.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298187 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Actually, I had seen this article already and brought it to the attention of Kristen Schofield and Adam Lehman at Adobe. Kristen said she'd see what she could do. So Adobe has already been alerted. Judith Dinowitz Editor-in-Chief: Fusion Authority http://www.fusionauthority.com I would like to see some articles that said they were going from .NET to CF as well but it is always the other way around. I'm working with a client who's transitioning from .NET to CF right now. That said, I think there are more people going the other way. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298203 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be What can Adobe do to promote ColdFusion? CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a few years now. I just want to see the articles that say Yeah, we're migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and integrated platform. Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Andy Matthews wrote: Sure...I'm sure that interview was done about 2 or 3 months ago. -Original Message- From: Todd Rafferty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:29 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Too late. Looks like they've already converted ( http://www.uline.com/ ). On Feb 5, 2008 9:23 AM, Cutter (CFRelated) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This morning I read something disturbing. Weekly I get InformationWeek, which really caters more to CIOs and SysAds more than developers. That's part of why what I read disturbed me so much. They run a weekly column titled CIO Values, in which they profile some CIO or CTO from a variety of industries. Someone who has provided value to their company, and the companies they've worked with before. This week they profiled Bill Santille of Uline, a 'Shipping Supply Specialist' if Google has it right. (http://tinyurl.com/2fsj74) In the article they have the interviewee's 'Three top initiatives' that they are working towards. In Mr Santille's he states, in his second initiative: Rewrite entire sales/customer service application by replacing green-screen application with Java... But, his third initiative states: Replace current Web-based front end for Internet transactions with Microsoft .Net code. The existing platform is written in ColdFusion... OK, from an integration standpoint it would definitely make more sense to stay with ColdFusion, being that it's J2EE native. So, where is this guy's thinking? Well, he probably doesn't know any better. What's worse, it's published in a nationally distributed magazine to IT executives. Hey Adobe! Somebody needs to talk to this guy -- http://www.web-rat.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298189 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
On 2/5/08, Todd Rafferty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Too late. Looks like they've already converted ( http://www.uline.com/ ). I don't think there has been any conversion there, or any CF...looking in the wayback machine, that site has been the same ASP classic stuff since around 2002... http://web.archive.org/web/20020528223503/www.uline.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298191 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I would like to see some articles that said they were going from .NET to CF as well but it is always the other way around. I do a lot of work for a worldwide company that has over 80k employees and their standard was ColdFusion with Oracle since sometime around the year 2000. They are in the process of changing their standard to SharePoint and when that can not do it then ASP.NET. I think they are retaining Oracle although pretty certain the SharePoint cluster is using MSSQL. I personally never see people going to ColdFusion but routinely see people leaving it. On Feb 5, 2008 8:51 AM, Cutter (CFRelated) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be What can Adobe do to promote ColdFusion? CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a few years now. I just want to see the articles that say Yeah, we're migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and integrated platform. Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Andy Matthews wrote: Sure...I'm sure that interview was done about 2 or 3 months ago. -Original Message- From: Todd Rafferty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:29 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Too late. Looks like they've already converted ( http://www.uline.com/). On Feb 5, 2008 9:23 AM, Cutter (CFRelated) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This morning I read something disturbing. Weekly I get InformationWeek, which really caters more to CIOs and SysAds more than developers. That's part of why what I read disturbed me so much. They run a weekly column titled CIO Values, in which they profile some CIO or CTO from a variety of industries. Someone who has provided value to their company, and the companies they've worked with before. This week they profiled Bill Santille of Uline, a 'Shipping Supply Specialist' if Google has it right. (http://tinyurl.com/2fsj74) In the article they have the interviewee's 'Three top initiatives' that they are working towards. In Mr Santille's he states, in his second initiative: Rewrite entire sales/customer service application by replacing green-screen application with Java... But, his third initiative states: Replace current Web-based front end for Internet transactions with Microsoft .Net code. The existing platform is written in ColdFusion... OK, from an integration standpoint it would definitely make more sense to stay with ColdFusion, being that it's J2EE native. So, where is this guy's thinking? Well, he probably doesn't know any better. What's worse, it's published in a nationally distributed magazine to IT executives. Hey Adobe! Somebody needs to talk to this guy -- http://www.web-rat.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298192 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I would like to see some articles that said they were going from .NET to CF as well but it is always the other way around. I'm working with a client who's transitioning from .NET to CF right now. That said, I think there are more people going the other way. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298194 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
week they profiled Bill Santille of Uline, a 'Shipping Supply Specialist' if Google has it right. (http://tinyurl.com/2fsj74) Yeah, they're a great company with excellent customer service and quality products. I use them, as do clients of mine. You should all get your packaging and shipping supplies from them. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis President Productivity Enhancement ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298198 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I don't know, it looks like they are using the old .asp extension rather than .NETs .aspx extension :) Did he 'upgrade' into something older and slower? William -- William E. Seiter Have you ever read a book that changed your life? Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com Enter passkey: goldengrove Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer http://William.Seiter.com -Original Message- From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 6:44 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Sure...I'm sure that interview was done about 2 or 3 months ago. -Original Message- From: Todd Rafferty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:29 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Too late. Looks like they've already converted ( http://www.uline.com/ ). On Feb 5, 2008 9:23 AM, Cutter (CFRelated) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This morning I read something disturbing. Weekly I get InformationWeek, which really caters more to CIOs and SysAds more than developers. That's part of why what I read disturbed me so much. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298216 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Wow, Judith, you are fast! I only received my magazine copy yesterday. I copied Ben and Damon on my original post (I had the wrong email for Kristen) Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Judith Dinowitz wrote: Actually, I had seen this article already and brought it to the attention of Kristen Schofield and Adam Lehman at Adobe. Kristen said she'd see what she could do. So Adobe has already been alerted. Judith Dinowitz Editor-in-Chief: Fusion Authority http://www.fusionauthority.com ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298236 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
That's funny. ..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com -Original Message- From: William Seiter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 11:11 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better I don't know, it looks like they are using the old .asp extension rather than .NETs .aspx extension :) Did he 'upgrade' into something older and slower? William -- William E. Seiter Have you ever read a book that changed your life? Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com Enter passkey: goldengrove Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer http://William.Seiter.com -Original Message- From: Andy Matthews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 6:44 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Sure...I'm sure that interview was done about 2 or 3 months ago. -Original Message- From: Todd Rafferty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:29 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Too late. Looks like they've already converted ( http://www.uline.com/ ). On Feb 5, 2008 9:23 AM, Cutter (CFRelated) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This morning I read something disturbing. Weekly I get InformationWeek, which really caters more to CIOs and SysAds more than developers. That's part of why what I read disturbed me so much. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298241 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
week they profiled Bill Santille of Uline, a 'Shipping Supply Specialist' if Google has it right. (http://tinyurl.com/2fsj74) Yeah, they're a great company with excellent customer service and quality products. I use them, as do clients of mine. You should all get your packaging and shipping supplies from them. Respectfully, Adam Phillip Churvis President Productivity Enhancement We use them too. They are excellent - good prices, fast shipping. Judith ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298239 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be What can Adobe do to promote ColdFusion? CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a few years now. I just want to see the articles that say Yeah, we're migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and integrated platform. They should put out a request specifically for people who are switching to CF to contact them for use in their marketing materials as case studies. They might get for example that FigLeaf client Dave Watts mentioned. -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298246 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be What can Adobe do to promote ColdFusion? CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a few years now. I just want to see the articles that say Yeah, we're migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and integrated platform. The problem a lot of people are mentioning as well is lack of developers. It becomes a vicious circle...developers jump to another platform because there are more jobs, so it becomes harder for employers to find ones that are experienced in CF, so they switch, which makes jobs even harder to find, etc. So it really has to be a two-pronged attack...getting more people to want to use CF for their sites, but also getting more developers to learn it. And of course, trying to keep hosting options as well. I really do think the cost of the server is an issue, when it comes to getting more people on board. Certainly at the Enterprise-level it's not an issue (or shouldn't be), but for small-time developers that want to run their own box, it's a hard sell. And these are the folks that are needed to really grow support for the platform. I ran into that just this week with someone that was in college and wanted to learn my software and put up a store using his own box. I might have been willing to do some kind of educational discount, but the cost of ColdFusion pretty much made the whole discussion moot. I'm hoping eventually Railo or SmithProject might become more viable as low-cost options...but even if they do, they're likely to be options only those of us that are already invested in CF will know about. I imagine this is something a lot of us that sell CF applications run into...if you sell a .Net or PHP application, it's not a big deal who someone is hosting with, as the vast majority of hosts offer these. If you have a CF application though, if a normal merchant finds you through Google or some other application/script listing site, 9 times out of 10 they are not going to be able to run your application because their host doesn't run CF (or they are using...gasp...GoDaddy!) So before you can even sell you on your application, you have to sell them on switching hosts. It's a tough situation, for sure. It's one thing I really liked with the Railo licensing, which works with the way their server can configure different webs as separate entities and then license each individually, versus a more costly full-priced server. It's a great low-cost entry that is attractive to a small developer, while still requiring someone that is using the server to host many sites to pay a reasonable price. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298247 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I live in a city of about 250,000 and once I find a new job, I'll end coding in a different language and there's nothing I can do about it. I've tried finding positions that will let me work remotely, but with justification, a lot of companies aren't comfortable with that and I'm not willing to move just to keep programming in Coldfusion. A sad reality... !k -Original Message- From: Mary Jo Sminkey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 2:10 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be What can Adobe do to promote ColdFusion? CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a few years now. I just want to see the articles that say Yeah, we're migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and integrated platform. The problem a lot of people are mentioning as well is lack of developers. It becomes a vicious circle...developers jump to another platform because there are more jobs, so it becomes harder for employers to find ones that are experienced in CF, so they switch, which makes jobs even harder to find, etc. So it really has to be a two-pronged attack...getting more people to want to use CF for their sites, but also getting more developers to learn it. And of course, trying to keep hosting options as well. I really do think the cost of the server is an issue, when it comes to getting more people on board. Certainly at the Enterprise-level it's not an issue (or shouldn't be), but for small-time developers that want to run their own box, it's a hard sell. And these are the folks that are needed to really grow support for the platform. I ran into that just this week with someone that was in college and wanted to learn my software and put up a store using his own box. I might have been willing to do some kind of educational discount, but the cost of ColdFusion pretty much made the whole discussion moot. I'm hoping eventually Railo or SmithProject might become more viable as low-cost options...but even if they do, they're likely to be options only those of us that are already invested in CF will know about. I imagine this is something a lot of us that sell CF applications run into...if you sell a .Net or PHP application, it's not a big deal who someone is hosting with, as the vast majority of hosts offer these. If you have a CF application though, if a normal merchant finds you through Google or some other application/script listing site, 9 times out of 10 they are not going to be able to run your application because their host doesn't run CF (or they are using...gasp...GoDaddy!) So before you can even sell you on your application, you have to sell them on switching hosts. It's a tough situation, for sure. It's one thing I really liked with the Railo licensing, which works with the way their server can configure different webs as separate entities and then license each individually, versus a more costly full-priced server. It's a great low-cost entry that is attractive to a small developer, while still requiring someone that is using the server to host many sites to pay a reasonable price. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298251 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Agreed, I know one of the big things here that the IT Architects used to say CF is a dead or dying language was all the examples they could show of businesses going away from it. Although they were on a mission to go pure MS and not sure if anything could have beat them off that mission. On Feb 5, 2008 2:19 PM, s. isaac dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They should put out a request specifically for people who are switching to CF to contact them for use in their marketing materials as case studies. They might get for example that FigLeaf client Dave Watts mentioned. -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298254 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
As a CF developer for many years, I often feel as if I work twice as hard selling my services to a potential small-biz client, than the closest PHP developer. Not only am I selling myself, I also *have to* sell CF. From my potential client's perspective, they really don't care much on how easy it would be for me, the CF developer, to code their project. They do care about (1) how much it will cost them on top of my fee; (2) how easy it would be to find help in case I am not available. We CF developers and zealots, of course, could make all the justification in the world to make the case of the points above in favor of CF. That is not the problem. The problem is that, why do I, the CF developer, need to keep on selling the advantages of CF to my clients. Shouldn't Adobe work twice as hard to reach out to the small businesses, so developers like me don't have to sell it (or at least make my selling efforts as easy as the PHP, .NET or the RoR guy)? -Original Message- From: Mary Jo Sminkey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:10 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be What can Adobe do to promote ColdFusion? CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a few years now. I just want to see the articles that say Yeah, we're migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and integrated platform. The problem a lot of people are mentioning as well is lack of developers. It becomes a vicious circle...developers jump to another platform because there are more jobs, so it becomes harder for employers to find ones that are experienced in CF, so they switch, which makes jobs even harder to find, etc. So it really has to be a two-pronged attack...getting more people to want to use CF for their sites, but also getting more developers to learn it. And of course, trying to keep hosting options as well. I really do think the cost of the server is an issue, when it comes to getting more people on board. Certainly at the Enterprise-level it's not an issue (or shouldn't be), but for small-time developers that want to run their own box, it's a hard sell. And these are the folks that are needed to really grow support for the platform. I ran into that just this week with someone that was in college and wanted to learn my software and put up a store using his own box. I might have been willing to do some kind of educational discount, but the cost of ColdFusion pretty much made the whole discussion moot. I'm hoping eventually Railo or SmithProject might become more viable as low-cost options...but even if they do, they're likely to be options only those of us that are already invested in CF will know about. I imagine this is something a lot of us that sell CF applications run into...if you sell a .Net or PHP application, it's not a big deal who someone is hosting with, as the vast majority of hosts offer these. If you have a CF application though, if a normal merchant finds you through Google or some other application/script listing site, 9 times out of 10 they are not going to be able to run your application because their host doesn't run CF (or they are using...gasp...GoDaddy!) So before you can even sell you on your application, you have to sell them on switching hosts. It's a tough situation, for sure. It's one thing I really liked with the Railo licensing, which works with the way their server can configure different webs as separate entities and then license each individually, versus a more costly full-priced server. It's a great low- cost entry that is attractive to a small developer, while still requiring someone that is using the server to host many sites to pay a reasonable price. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298263 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
They should put out a request specifically for people who are switching to CF to contact them for use in their marketing materials as case studies. They might get for example that FigLeaf client Dave Watts mentioned. Good idea. They do have quite a few case studies already, but you can never have too many. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/customers/ -- Josh - Original Message - From: s. isaac dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:19 PM Subject: Re: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be What can Adobe do to promote ColdFusion? CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a few years now. I just want to see the articles that say Yeah, we're migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and integrated platform. They should put out a request specifically for people who are switching to CF to contact them for use in their marketing materials as case studies. They might get for example that FigLeaf client Dave Watts mentioned. -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298265 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Well it's a bit hard for CF, because of the pricing model. CF is priced per Server, meanwhile all the other technologies you mention can be hosted for (relatively) free. .NET makes it up by selling more Windows Server licenses, and PHP and RoR are free. Microsoft has done a good job advertising to universities, where they pretty much give away a copy of Visual Studio to every student. This is something that is free for them, and it helps push the universities to teach .NET, and C#, etc. Once students graduate, they will bring these skills to the workplace, and MS will make money by selling more Windows Servers (for hosting), and Visual Studio (for development). Although Adobe has free development editions, the educational editions are not free (I think they should be). I believe every university should run their websites in CF as a marketing tool. (Mine recently converted from CF 4.5 to PHP. If they were using MX+, I doubt they would've converted). Adobe should also push to have ColdFusion taught as part of the curriculum (at least as an elective) instead of ASP.NET, or at least as an alternative. They should provide free and easy educational materials that teachers can use to teach CF. I would love to volunteer to teach CF in my alma mater, but I wouldn't even know where to start in terms of teaching materials. Having a lab with a CF server on every computer is going to require powerful hardware, and running a developer edition on a shared server is not allowed as per Adobe. Maybe if Adobe got their act together, we'd have a lot more graduates actually knowing what CF is and not thinking that it's a piece of crap that most people remember from the v 4.5 days. Just my $0.02 Russ -Original Message- From: CFMike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 4:13 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better As a CF developer for many years, I often feel as if I work twice as hard selling my services to a potential small-biz client, than the closest PHP developer. Not only am I selling myself, I also *have to* sell CF. From my potential client's perspective, they really don't care much on how easy it would be for me, the CF developer, to code their project. They do care about (1) how much it will cost them on top of my fee; (2) how easy it would be to find help in case I am not available. We CF developers and zealots, of course, could make all the justification in the world to make the case of the points above in favor of CF. That is not the problem. The problem is that, why do I, the CF developer, need to keep on selling the advantages of CF to my clients. Shouldn't Adobe work twice as hard to reach out to the small businesses, so developers like me don't have to sell it (or at least make my selling efforts as easy as the PHP, .NET or the RoR guy)? -Original Message- From: Mary Jo Sminkey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:10 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be What can Adobe do to promote ColdFusion? CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a few years now. I just want to see the articles that say Yeah, we're migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and integrated platform. The problem a lot of people are mentioning as well is lack of developers. It becomes a vicious circle...developers jump to another platform because there are more jobs, so it becomes harder for employers to find ones that are experienced in CF, so they switch, which makes jobs even harder to find, etc. So it really has to be a two-pronged attack...getting more people to want to use CF for their sites, but also getting more developers to learn it. And of course, trying to keep hosting options as well. I really do think the cost of the server is an issue, when it comes to getting more people on board. Certainly at the Enterprise-level it's not an issue (or shouldn't be), but for small-time developers that want to run their own box, it's a hard sell. And these are the folks that are needed to really grow support for the platform. I ran into that just this week with someone that was in college and wanted to learn my software and put up a store using his own box. I might have been willing to do some kind of educational discount, but the cost of ColdFusion pretty much made the whole discussion moot. I'm hoping eventually Railo or SmithProject might become more viable as low-cost options...but even if they do, they're likely to be options only those of us that are already invested in CF will know about. I imagine this is something a lot of us that sell CF applications run into...if you sell a .Net or PHP application, it's
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Nice, wonder how accurate the list is there, I see we are on there but I know we have not bought CF for our data centers in a long time especially since they are outsourced. We also are moving around from CF. On Feb 5, 2008 3:25 PM, Josh Nathanson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They should put out a request specifically for people who are switching to CF to contact them for use in their marketing materials as case studies. They might get for example that FigLeaf client Dave Watts mentioned. Good idea. They do have quite a few case studies already, but you can never have too many. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/customers/ -- Josh - Original Message - From: s. isaac dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:19 PM Subject: Re: SPAM: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be What can Adobe do to promote ColdFusion? CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a few years now. I just want to see the articles that say Yeah, we're migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and integrated platform. They should put out a request specifically for people who are switching to CF to contact them for use in their marketing materials as case studies. They might get for example that FigLeaf client Dave Watts mentioned. -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298269 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
As a CF developer for many years, I often feel as if I work twice as hard selling my services to a potential small-biz client, than the closest PHP developer. Not only am I selling myself, I also *have to* sell CF. From my potential client's perspective, they really don't care much on how easy it would be for me, the CF developer, to code their project. They do care about (1) how much it will cost them on top of my fee; (2) how easy it would be to find help in case I am not available. We CF developers and zealots, of course, could make all the justification in the world to make the case of the points above in favor of CF. That is not the problem. The problem is that, why do I, the CF developer, need to keep on selling the advantages of CF to my clients. Shouldn't Adobe work twice as hard to reach out to the small businesses, so developers like me don't have to sell it (or at least make my selling efforts as easy as the PHP, .NET or the RoR guy)? -Original Message- From: Mary Jo Sminkey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:10 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be What can Adobe do to promote ColdFusion? CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a few years now. I just want to see the articles that say Yeah, we're migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and integrated platform. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298270 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
The problem is that, why do I, the CF developer, need to keep on selling the advantages of CF to my clients. Shouldn't Adobe work twice as hard to reach out to the small businesses, so developers like me don't have to sell it (or at least make my selling efforts as easy as the PHP, .NET or the RoR guy)? This comes up all the time, but it's a pointless discussion. What Adobe should or should not do is beyond your control, and obviously the people at Adobe don't agree with you on this. Adobe doesn't appear to be especially interested in selling to the small business market, but rather to the enterprise market. According to the little sales information I can find, this strategy appears to be working for them. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298273 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I'd be curious as to how many enterprise customers of CF they pick up per year vs how many are lost. On Feb 5, 2008 3:54 PM, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is that, why do I, the CF developer, need to keep on selling the advantages of CF to my clients. Shouldn't Adobe work twice as hard to reach out to the small businesses, so developers like me don't have to sell it (or at least make my selling efforts as easy as the PHP, .NET or the RoR guy)? This comes up all the time, but it's a pointless discussion. What Adobe should or should not do is beyond your control, and obviously the people at Adobe don't agree with you on this. Adobe doesn't appear to be especially interested in selling to the small business market, but rather to the enterprise market. According to the little sales information I can find, this strategy appears to be working for them. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298279 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Adobe should also push to have ColdFusion taught as part of the curriculum (at least as an elective) instead of ASP.NET, or at least as an alternative. They should provide free and easy educational materials that teachers can use to teach CF. Yes, absolutely. It simply has to be out there more for people to learn, and to be cheap or ideally free to learn. A free development version simply doesn't cut it, given what the competition has to offer. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298278 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Not only am I selling myself, I also *have to* sell CF. Ain't that the truth. The sad fact is that CF and/or CF developers have a less than favorable reputation. I seen it and heard it all over the place *for years*. CF is not taken seriously in a lot of circles that I have traveled. Even though I have been developing in CF for about 10 years and it is my stack of choice, I often avoid mentioning that I am a CF developer in some professional circles because I am sick of seeing people roll their eyes or hearing things like Cf doesn't scale, Myspace doesn't use CF etc etc. On a recent Yahoo chat I came to CF's defense CF is a fine language. The response was And the punch line is? And then I made a case for CF and I got clobbered. Yeah, Yahoo chatters are *ssholes... but the sentiment is there and it is pervasive. The fact is... I know CF is an amazing stack, *you* know it..But it seems that (good portion of) the rest of the IT world doesn't seem to think so. The more I learn languages like Java and C# the more powerful CF becomes to me. I mean I really love CF but damn if I don't take a lot of abuse for it. On Feb 5, 2008 4:41 PM, CFMike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a CF developer for many years, I often feel as if I work twice as hard selling my services to a potential small-biz client, than the closest PHP developer. Not only am I selling myself, I also *have to* sell CF. From my potential client's perspective, they really don't care much on how easy it would be for me, the CF developer, to code their project. They do care about (1) how much it will cost them on top of my fee; (2) how easy it would be to find help in case I am not available. We CF developers and zealots, of course, could make all the justification in the world to make the case of the points above in favor of CF. That is not the problem. The problem is that, why do I, the CF developer, need to keep on selling the advantages of CF to my clients. Shouldn't Adobe work twice as hard to reach out to the small businesses, so developers like me don't have to sell it (or at least make my selling efforts as easy as the PHP, .NET or the RoR guy)? -Original Message- From: Mary Jo Sminkey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:10 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be What can Adobe do to promote ColdFusion? CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a few years now. I just want to see the articles that say Yeah, we're migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and integrated platform. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298282 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I think that having it as an alternative to QBasic would be great. Budding programmers could choose which course they want. QBasic, which really isn't used anywhere, but teaches the basics, or, ColdFusion, which is used everywhere, has realworld applications, and can be used to teach the basics. William -- William E. Seiter Have you ever read a book that changed your life? Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com Enter passkey: goldengrove Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer http://William.Seiter.com -Original Message- From: Mary Jo Sminkey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 2:55 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better Adobe should also push to have ColdFusion taught as part of the curriculum (at least as an elective) instead of ASP.NET, or at least as an alternative. They should provide free and easy educational materials that teachers can use to teach CF. Yes, absolutely. It simply has to be out there more for people to learn, and to be cheap or ideally free to learn. A free development version simply doesn't cut it, given what the competition has to offer. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298283 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
CF is great but CF coupled with Flex is even better. We have a lot of Java developers here who don't think much of CF but they kinda gulp when they can see what a Flex front end and a CF backend can do. Flex is starting to make inroads here since it is easy to make killer apps with it and it is helping bolster CF. Unfortunately it is all still pricey unless you are an enterprise house (as we are). Warren Koch ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298285 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
-Original Message- From: William Seiter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 7:04 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better I think that having it as an alternative to QBasic would be great. Budding programmers could choose which course they want. QBasic, which really isn't used anywhere, but teaches the basics, or, ColdFusion, which is used everywhere, has realworld applications, and can be used to teach the basics. William I don't know about that. Is there an actual university out there that's peddling QBasic? I mean I've done my share of programming in it, but it's so 1980's. C++/Java should remain as the core languages that people learn. ColdFusion should be offered as part of an elective course. When I went to school, I took Java as an elective, and also WWW programming with Perl. Perl is a fine language, but it's not really meant for web programming. Neither is Java/C++/C#, etc. CF is and has been from the beginning a language for web programming, and that's how it should be taught. As far as teaching it as a core language, I'm sorry but it just doesn't make sense. The same way that visual basic wouldn't make a good core language course. Students should learn the hard way to do things first, and then learning CF would be a breeze. If students learned CF as their core language, they would have trouble expanding their skillset with Java for example, because CF just makes things too easy for the programmer. Russ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298286 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
I took a class that had QBasic within it, I think I took that class 4-5 years ago and would imagine it is still there. I have yet to see an ASP.NETclass, I know at the current University that I take classes they do have some PHP courses. I also know that one of the nearby community colleges was offering some CF classes about 3 years ago because I recall them looking for instructors at the time. On Feb 5, 2008 6:44 PM, Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know about that. Is there an actual university out there that's peddling QBasic? I mean I've done my share of programming in it, but it's so 1980's. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298288 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Good idea. They do have quite a few case studies already, but you can never have too many. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/customers/ -- Josh Thanks Josh. I hadn't really looked through them recently, though I was thinking specifically about case studies of companies moving to CF from competing technologies like PHP or MS SharePoint. It was my impression (though I could be wrong) that their case studies were generally confined to new projects rather than having any focus on platform transitions. Showing platform transitions would be good cases for showing comparative strength of the technology to give people an idea of areas where CF may be better suited for a specific project. Having more of that focus out there might produce better results with regard to what we perceive as an overall bad rep for ColdFusion where people are always leaving in droves from a technology that's been around since before all the others were even conceived and yet shows no particular signs of going anywhere any time soon. :P Just wasn't sure if I'd made that notion clear in my previous post. :) -- s. isaac dealey ^ new epoch isn't it time for a change? ph: 503.236.3691 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298289 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
As a CF developer for many years, I often feel as if I work twice as hard selling my services to a potential small-biz client, than the closest PHP developer. Not only am I selling myself, I also *have to* sell CF. From my potential client's perspective, they really don't care much on how easy it would be for me, the CF developer, to code their project. They do care about (1) how much it will cost them on top of my fee; (2) how easy it would be to find help in case I am not available. We CF developers and zealots, of course, could make all the justification in the world to make the case of the points above in favor of CF. That is not the problem. The problem is that, why do I, the CF developer, need to keep on selling the advantages of CF to my clients. Shouldn't Adobe work twice as hard to reach out to the small businesses, so developers like me don't have to sell it (or at least make my selling efforts as easy as the PHP, .NET or the RoR guy)? -Original Message- From: Mary Jo Sminkey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:10 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better I'm not surprised. The big question continues to be What can Adobe do to promote ColdFusion? CF gets press on releases, and Adobe has actively and aggressively marketed toward the government IT sector for a few years now. I just want to see the articles that say Yeah, we're migrating from .Net to ColdFusion. It's just a much more dynamic and integrated platform. The problem a lot of people are mentioning as well is lack of developers. It becomes a vicious circle...developers jump to another platform because there are more jobs, so it becomes harder for employers to find ones that are experienced in CF, so they switch, which makes jobs even harder to find, etc. So it really has to be a two-pronged attack...getting more people to want to use CF for their sites, but also getting more developers to learn it ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298299 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion: Some People Just Don't Know Any Better
Adobe doesn't appear to be especially interested in selling to the small business market, but rather to the enterprise market. According to the little sales information I can find, this strategy appears to be working for them. The problem with that Dave is that even the Enterprise customers won't be able to find developers eventually, if the small business and educational use is left behind. We're already starting to see this developer shortage and eventually companies are going to get tired of having to train developers when they can use other platforms and pull from a readily-available pool of trained and experienced people. I just wonder if there isn't more that we as a community can do to pressure Adobe or at least try to make them see the error of this approach. Seriously, there is simply no way they will be successful long-term targeting solely an Enterprise market and that's just going to hurt all of us in the end. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:298300 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
