RE: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
Yeah, I think I remember that. It filled up, like 3 minutes after being announced (hyperbole... hyperbole...) I guess it goes without saying that was a pretty good indication about how many people would've enjoyed a second session being offered. I couldn't get in, and I think I begged on Ben's blog to do a second session, if memory serves. Next time I'm going to register for Max and wake up early that morning to register for the sessions. Like a concert or something. Maybe camp out the night before... -Original Message- From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 11:19 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks) On 5/3/07, Jeff Small [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think a Frameworks Overview needs to be added to the Max conference this year. Not a debate. Not a discussion or a Birds of a Feather... but a nice, healthy overview of the frameworks available to ColdFusion programmers, and their strengths and weaknesses as described by you and Barney. Ben Forta organized such a session at last year's MAX. A three hour frameworks comparison session. All the major frameworks were represented and they all built the same app to compare the similarities and differences. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 The most significant release in over 10 years. Upgrade see new features. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJR Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:277110 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
Yeah probably a little... Nah, I didn't take them that way. Education is completely different from daily work experience, as I'm sure you're well aware. As I previously indicated, we're just a medium sized advertising agency. We don't build CMSes, we don't build enterprise applications. We just build small marketing and promotions web sites. I've never needed tools to assist in designing a database, I've always just used Enterprise Manager and built them. I've never needed any high end versioning because there's me, and at most, two other programmers. Checking out files is only slightly easier than yelling across the hall, hey, don't work on that because I'm working on it now. So of course, different strokes for different folks. So the question didn't originate from an education point of view, it just came from a practical experience point of view. I haven't ever needed to use a framework with the relatively light programming I do, so like anyone in my position, you always look for ways to make your life easier and make your programming tighter and better, and with all the talk about frameworks lately, you start to think, hey, maybe there's something to this, I wonder if it would work in our case? After all this discussion, it's become obvious to me that we're probably just fine building applications the way we're building them, and CS3 will work well with the system of we have in place, especially being so tightly integrated with a full blown art production department that we rely on so heavily. So nah. I can see how Eclipse would be pretty cool and useful and all that, and perhaps, if we somehow manage to land a client that requires a heavier website than we normally provide we'd take a look at them, but I'm pretty sure we're chugging along fine. I do appreciate the Eclipse soapbox though. It's nice to see people as passionate about that stuff as I suppose I am about Dreamweaver. Nice reply. I dug it. ~| ColdFusion MX7 by Adobe® Dyncamically transform webcontent into Adobe PDF with new ColdFusion MX7. Free Trial. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJV Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:277111 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
I guess what I am saying is that if you are so educated, why are you asking such a question. but hey if you thin you can design efficent patterns in DW then so be it, who are we to tell you otherwise. Thats why you did not need to ask.. Damn. That was kind of harsh. M!ke On 5/4/07, Jeff Small [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With your background I am suprised you use DW, I would have thought Eclipse and SVN would be your bag. If I may ask, why? I hand code mostly in Dreamweaver's CodeView. I should probably preface this entire conversation by noting that I run the interactive department of a medium sized Advertising Agency. So our goals here are probably way more graphically and brand oriented. I work with an entire art department that delivers artwork to me in PNG form that I simply bring directly into Fireworks and slice up, moving it then directly into Dreamweaver. Dreamweaver links to my PNGs so any changes to the images automatically open up Fireworks and take me straight to the master PNG file. We've just been working with the Macromedia workflow as long as I remember, and it's never given us pause to sit and think about any type of framework. ~| ColdFusion MX7 and Flex 2 Build sales marketing dashboard RIAâs for your business. Upgrade now http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2?sdid=RVJT Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:277078 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
Yeah probably a little... On 5/6/07, Dawson, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess what I am saying is that if you are so educated, why are you asking such a question. but hey if you thin you can design efficent patterns in DW then so be it, who are we to tell you otherwise. Thats why you did not need to ask.. Damn. That was kind of harsh. M!ke On 5/4/07, Jeff Small [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With your background I am suprised you use DW, I would have thought Eclipse and SVN would be your bag. If I may ask, why? I hand code mostly in Dreamweaver's CodeView. I should probably preface this entire conversation by noting that I run the interactive department of a medium sized Advertising Agency. So our goals here are probably way more graphically and brand oriented. I work with an entire art department that delivers artwork to me in PNG form that I simply bring directly into Fireworks and slice up, moving it then directly into Dreamweaver. Dreamweaver links to my PNGs so any changes to the images automatically open up Fireworks and take me straight to the master PNG file. We've just been working with the Macromedia workflow as long as I remember, and it's never given us pause to sit and think about any type of framework. ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:277085 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
On 5/3/07, Jeff Small [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think a Frameworks Overview needs to be added to the Max conference this year. Not a debate. Not a discussion or a Birds of a Feather... but a nice, healthy overview of the frameworks available to ColdFusion programmers, and their strengths and weaknesses as described by you and Barney. Ben Forta organized such a session at last year's MAX. A three hour frameworks comparison session. All the major frameworks were represented and they all built the same app to compare the similarities and differences. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Macromedia ColdFusion MX7 Upgrade to MX7 experience time-saving features, more productivity. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJW Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:277070 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
Well, the answer to be would be your background. DW is a good design tool but it lacks methodologies, it lacks design principles and last but not least is not an IDE for serious development. 1) with your background the design patterns that most frameworks offer provide easy and quick coding with less effort to get things done with, but this has nothing to do with Dreamweaver. 2) DW only allows for checking of code out of a repository, and locks it. I haven't seend CS3 yet but when it comes to branching and merging of developers code it does not support that. 3) Agile and TDD is no where near supported in DW3, and someone with your background would realise that DW doesn't allow for these at all. but one thing I will agree with is frameworks do not fit into every situation, and that is why there are so many of them. Believe it or not when you design your application to achieve what you want it to do then you are creating a framework for that application. When Mach-II first became popular, we had a framework in place that allowed us to get a CMS, email campaign, and very complex master / details running very quickly because of the framework we developed. It took SQL code away from us as the framework took care of it, so we did not need to code anything. Just provide the XML and business logic needed to get the app done. Now in a sense this is not an MVC, or Coldspring or ORM approach but it worked well. But it was a framework, it did not suit every design need for a website but it did enough for us to get jobs done faster than anyone else could have. But DW as I said, serioulsy has no concept of true SVN (Source versioning) it works on check out check in, DW does not support test units and running with a TDD environment and it certainly doesn't have the necessary tools to do DB design etc. I guess what I am saying is that if you are so educated, why are you asking such a question. Eclipse provides all and more, with the help of plugins. It provides the ability to switch to a different branch to work on different version and allows for very strong TDD and agile porgramming with the help of plugins like mylar, jira and others. but hey if you thin you can design efficent patterns in DW then so be it, who are we to tell you otherwise. Thats why you did not need to ask.. On 5/4/07, Jeff Small [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With your background I am suprised you use DW, I would have thought Eclipse and SVN would be your bag. If I may ask, why? I hand code mostly in Dreamweaver's CodeView. I should probably preface this entire conversation by noting that I run the interactive department of a medium sized Advertising Agency. So our goals here are probably way more graphically and brand oriented. I work with an entire art department that delivers artwork to me in PNG form that I simply bring directly into Fireworks and slice up, moving it then directly into Dreamweaver. Dreamweaver links to my PNGs so any changes to the images automatically open up Fireworks and take me straight to the master PNG file. We've just been working with the Macromedia workflow as long as I remember, and it's never given us pause to sit and think about any type of framework. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:277071 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
With your background I am suprised you use DW, I would have thought Eclipse and SVN would be your bag. If I may ask, why? I hand code mostly in Dreamweaver's CodeView. I should probably preface this entire conversation by noting that I run the interactive department of a medium sized Advertising Agency. So our goals here are probably way more graphically and brand oriented. I work with an entire art department that delivers artwork to me in PNG form that I simply bring directly into Fireworks and slice up, moving it then directly into Dreamweaver. Dreamweaver links to my PNGs so any changes to the images automatically open up Fireworks and take me straight to the master PNG file. We've just been working with the Macromedia workflow as long as I remember, and it's never given us pause to sit and think about any type of framework. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276934 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
Hi Jeff, A very quick answer is that if i came and worked for your company would i know on the first day which snippets did what? Would I conform to your standards? Frameworks allow people to pick up code and run with it quickly and conform to rules set out with in the framework. Well, we'd sit you down in front of a computer that was already built and ready for you. Pointing you to our in-house development server, and all the sites would be pre-loaded. Your snippets would all be arranged by type and named explicitly, so the answer is probably, yes, if we hired you and interviewed you and discovered that you were a trained programmer who was familiar with Dreamweaver, then we'd expect you to be able to do exactly what Dreamweaver does out of the box. As far as standards go, we're a very open ad agency with very open minded programmers. Our standards change about as often as CF does. We didn't use CFCs until they were made available, but when they were, we all used them. We all comment our code *a lot* and our group always performs what's called a post mortem on every site we deliver. We have a meeting at the conclusion of every new job to discuss what we learned, where we might've done better, and how we can apply it going forward. Our standards are a moving target much like the business we're in. Our workflow with Dreamweaver allows people to pick up code and run with it quickly and conform to rules that we all use as part and parcel to our development team. I just always thought this was how Dreamweaver was supposed to work, and I'm surprised at how many people simply don't use it the way (I understood) it to be designed... as an IDE. Interesting... ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276936 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
And surely, like most if not all CS grads you would have learned a design pattern in whatever OO language you were taught? A framework probably was shown as well, and it's benefits? Not really. Design patterns, sure. But frameworks? Never. I graduated from CompSci around the mid to late 90s. We were still using C and Borland for all our work. It wasn't even until after I finished school that Java was even taught, much less framework discussions. I was always taught, whenever and wherever you get your job programming, you'll learn that they probably have procedures in place that you'll have to learn in order to work well with the team that you'll join. I guess that was our framework discussion. ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276937 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
In short, there's nothing you NEED a framework for, but there are a lot of smart developers out there, and I generally prefer to trust code that someone else wrote (and tested, exercised, and then released to a large community) over code that I wrote (with no other vetting). Especially for the mundane (but VERY important) glue bits. And this perspective has nothing to do with CF, it's global to programming, which is why there is such a huge affection for Spring, Struts, Hibernate, Tapestry, etc., etc. beyond CF's borders. Okay, now THAT I can see. If we do most (if not all) of our programming using MVC, is that heading into framework territory? I mean, if I were to interview prospective new programmers, and I made sure that the way they IMPLEMENT code is to use MVC, and the PROCEDURES in place to help them do that is the methodology we're using, are we sort of using a pseudo framework? It's worth mentioning also that your current framework/methodology seems effortless to you largely because you're very familiar with it, and understand all it's ins and outs. A new framework will automatically seem a lot more cumbersome initially, because you lack that familiarity with it. Yeah, this is another really good point, but don't all new jobs require a bit of ramping up time? I mean, people here need to know where and how to check out files. How to get art from the art department, how to store files for backup, and where to archive daily work, and even how to fill out a timesheet to track their workday. Isn't all that part of that newbie learning curve that every business has? Here are where your snippets are, Here's where the development server is, Here's the SQL Server, and its password, Here's how to get to our development server's CFAdmin etc etc etc? It seems (at least to me) that once you're over the I'm new here curve, then it all just works the way it works. I don't think in about ten years or so of working this way have I ever run across an employee who says something along the lines of, this is difficult to get or I don't understand how this system works. But I *do* totally see your point. If we're big on MVC here, what framework picks up that ball and runs with it? ~| Create Web Applications With ColdFusion MX7 Flex 2. Build powerful, scalable RIAs. Free Trial http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJS Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276938 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
and wherever you get your job programming, you'll learn that they probably have procedures in place that you'll have to learn in order to work well with the team that you'll join. I guess that was our framework discussion. I think this all depends on what you are attempting to do, as each framework is intended to solve a (sometimes different) set of problems. In your environment Jeff, the problems that each framework addresses may not be relevant. Each framework is targeted at a specific problem, take for example ColdSpring; Do you program in an OO fashion and have many dependencies between your objects? Then ColdSpring is a framework that can help you manage those dependencies in an easy way (not to mention AOP). Do you have code that is tied really tightly with your display pages, causing all sorts of headaches when you need to update something? You might want to look at an MVC framework. In the end, many of the concepts that are applied are done so to help reduce the effort it will take to maintain the application. These things may or may not apply to your situation. If you run into these problems, then you'll become an advocate of frameworks, and the people that craft them. Rich Kroll ~| ColdFusion MX7 and Flex 2 Build sales marketing dashboard RIAâs for your business. Upgrade now http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2?sdid=RVJT Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276940 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
Considering they didn't include FLEX in dreamweaver CS3 I'm now starting to ask myselft the same thing. http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/web/features/allfeatures/ Can I be honest here for a second? This is *precisely* why I asked this question. The lack of Flex support in Dreamweaver in my opinion is apalling. Knowing that Fireworks can now write all my MXML straight out of it, and I can't do crap with it in Dreamweaver really pushed one of my buttons, and now I'm actually looking long and hard *at* CFEclispse or some product that can do both double duty as a Dreamweaver substitute (File Check-in/Check-out, linking to Fireworks, Component Tab, Datasource Tab) and a healthy Flex helper... Which made me think that perhaps with Flex coming so quickly, and our needs to be able to ramp up Flex work so quickly, that maybe it was time to dump Dreamweaver and move to a friendlier way to develop the kinds of apps that are rapidly moving into acceptance. But dammit... I LOVE my Flash Forms... I want it to be as easy as it is now... cfform format=flash *sigh* ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276941 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
Nothing wrong with Dreamweaver, a lot of federal agencies use it. Eclipse isn't used (much, depends upon the agency) because it's open source. -- Scott Stewart ColdFusion Developer SSTWebworks 7241 Jillspring Ct. Springfield, Va. 22152 (703) 220-2835 http://www.sstwebworks.com -Original Message- From: Jeff Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 12:19 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks) With your background I am suprised you use DW, I would have thought Eclipse and SVN would be your bag. If I may ask, why? I hand code mostly in Dreamweaver's CodeView. I should probably preface this entire conversation by noting that I run the interactive department of a medium sized Advertising Agency. So our goals here are probably way more graphically and brand oriented. I work with an entire art department that delivers artwork to me in PNG form that I simply bring directly into Fireworks and slice up, moving it then directly into Dreamweaver. Dreamweaver links to my PNGs so any changes to the images automatically open up Fireworks and take me straight to the master PNG file. We've just been working with the Macromedia workflow as long as I remember, and it's never given us pause to sit and think about any type of framework. ~| Create Web Applications With ColdFusion MX7 Flex 2. Build powerful, scalable RIAs. Free Trial http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJS Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276943 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
You shouldn't have to explain why you love DW over Eclipse. DW is pretty darn awesome and I'm not scared to spread the word, either. I, too, live in DW code view and shun frameworks. Hi, I'm Mike and I'm a DreamWeaver user. -Original Message- From: Jeff Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:19 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks) With your background I am suprised you use DW, I would have thought Eclipse and SVN would be your bag. If I may ask, why? I hand code mostly in Dreamweaver's CodeView. I should probably preface this entire conversation by noting that I run the interactive department of a medium sized Advertising Agency. So our goals here are probably way more graphically and brand oriented. I work with an entire art department that delivers artwork to me in PNG form that I simply bring directly into Fireworks and slice up, moving it then directly into Dreamweaver. Dreamweaver links to my PNGs so any changes to the images automatically open up Fireworks and take me straight to the master PNG file. We've just been working with the Macromedia workflow as long as I remember, and it's never given us pause to sit and think about any type of framework. ~| ColdFusion MX7 by Adobe® Dyncamically transform webcontent into Adobe PDF with new ColdFusion MX7. Free Trial. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJV Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276944 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
On 5/3/07, Dawson, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You shouldn't have to explain why you love DW over Eclipse. DW is pretty darn awesome and I'm not scared to spread the word, either. I, too, live in DW code view and shun frameworks. Hi, I'm Mike and I'm a DreamWeaver user. + 1 - replace Mike with Casey. ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276948 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
You shouldn't have to explain why you love DW over Eclipse. DW is pretty darn awesome and I'm not scared to spread the word, either. I, too, live in DW code view and shun frameworks. Hi, I'm Mike and I'm a DreamWeaver user. I'm sorry. I honestly didn't want those comments to come across that way. I was just *really* wondering if what I wasn't already doing *was* in fact, a framework, and if, during the course of the way I and my group programs, is a framework worth looking into. I was merely trying to sort of set the stage for some people in the know to provide me with some honest, clear, advice. I'm starting to feel like we're all at a crucial turning point. RIAs, Flex, MXML, and AJAX, and now Adobe CS3. So you start to think, should I get CS3? or is this the time when I start to look at alternative ways to get the results we've been getting? I'm not shy about learning curves, or any of that. If a particular framework will work for me, and help me be a better programmer, then I'm on board... But what I'm most afraid of, is abandoning something that's worked so well for so long for something that just seems... I dunno... the flavor of the day maybe? I just see so many Framework discussions going on, and I see so many people advocating different frameworks, that I start to wonder if it's not the way to go, then I alternate back to the other side of the fence and think, no, it's worked really well for this long, and Adobe is still delivering us good versions of Dreamweaver, so perhaps I'll just stick with that. I REALLY wonder more than anything if I do my employer a disservice by not looking into these frameworks and methodologies, but when you start to go down that road, it just seems like there are too many decisions to make and too many ways to skin the same cat. But again, opinions are like... well... you know... so please don't take mine to heart. And I certainly was purposely trying to stay away from turning this discussion into a Dreamweaver vs. Frameworks pissing contest so sorry if it came across that way... I'm just genuinely interested in the discussion... ~| Macromedia ColdFusion MX7 Upgrade to MX7 experience time-saving features, more productivity. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJW Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276950 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
On 5/3/07, Jeff Small [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sorry. I honestly didn't want those comments to come across that way. I was just *really* wondering if what I wasn't already doing *was* in fact, a framework, and if, during the course of the way I and my group programs, is a framework worth looking into. What you've described is a methodology with some reusable code components (though if they're snippets, they're really code templates). A framework is a collection of code that does something. They usually come with some implicit methodological constraints (i.e. you have to package your custom code in certain ways), but at it's core it's just some code that your application uses. Framework code is managed separately from application code (usually by the framework authors, who are unaware of your application at all), and within the application, acts as a black box. There should be nothing application-aware in framework code, otherwise it's no longer a distinct framework, and it's just some more application code. cheers, barneyb -- Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.barneyb.com/ Got Gmail? I have 100 invites. ~| Create Web Applications With ColdFusion MX7 Flex 2. Build powerful, scalable RIAs. Free Trial http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJS Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276953 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
Jeff, I didn't take your comments that way. I do think that comparing usage of a Framework to your company's Dreamweaver team workflow is an apples to oranges comparison, though.There's nothing mutually exclusive about the two. One provides a common lanuguage for your development team to use in developing applications, the other deals with your workflow and source control concerns. You may choose modify that workflow by adopting a Framework for your application development, but there's nothing inherent in using a Framework that requires you to rewrite the book on an already successful workflow.Your internal development language will adapt and expand to meet the needs of your methodology. I like CFEclipse and Frameworks for many reasons, but I also suffered a pretty significant (though short-term) productivity hit when switching from DW to Eclipse and Procedural to OO. If your team workflow is efficient and productive, I think you should be looking at what tools are missing from your tool belt and how you can adapt them to *your* environment instead of whether you need to replace that tool belt entirely. In other words, examine the tools you have, keep the good, replace the worn and tired, and add the missing. DW's built-in methodology may be the best solution, especially if your source is being shared by Designers who can't or don't want to grok the whole Eclipse thing. Let me put it this way, if your team is already productive and happy in their current environment and *you* have misgivings about the case for change, you probably already have a large part of your answer. Instead of looking to adapt your environment to the tools themselves, maybe look at how the tools fit into *your* enviroment and application requirements. Regards, Jon On May 3, 2007, at 1:10 PM, Jeff Small wrote: You shouldn't have to explain why you love DW over Eclipse. DW is pretty darn awesome and I'm not scared to spread the word, either. I, too, live in DW code view and shun frameworks. Hi, I'm Mike and I'm a DreamWeaver user. I'm sorry. I honestly didn't want those comments to come across that way. I was just *really* wondering if what I wasn't already doing *was* in fact, a framework, and if, during the course of the way I and my group programs, is a framework worth looking into. I was merely trying to sort of set the stage for some people in the know to provide me with some honest, clear, advice. I'm starting to feel like we're all at a crucial turning point. RIAs, Flex, MXML, and AJAX, and now Adobe CS3. So you start to think, should I get CS3? or is this the time when I start to look at alternative ways to get the results we've been getting? I'm not shy about learning curves, or any of that. If a particular framework will work for me, and help me be a better programmer, then I'm on board... But what I'm most afraid of, is abandoning something that's worked so well for so long for something that just seems... I dunno... the flavor of the day maybe? I just see so many Framework discussions going on, and I see so many people advocating different frameworks, that I start to wonder if it's not the way to go, then I alternate back to the other side of the fence and think, no, it's worked really well for this long, and Adobe is still delivering us good versions of Dreamweaver, so perhaps I'll just stick with that. I REALLY wonder more than anything if I do my employer a disservice by not looking into these frameworks and methodologies, but when you start to go down that road, it just seems like there are too many decisions to make and too many ways to skin the same cat. But again, opinions are like... well... you know... so please don't take mine to heart. And I certainly was purposely trying to stay away from turning this discussion into a Dreamweaver vs. Frameworks pissing contest so sorry if it came across that way... I'm just genuinely interested in the discussion... ~| Deploy Web Applications Quickly across the enterprise with ColdFusion MX7 Flex 2 Free Trial http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276957 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
I didn't take your comments that way. [snip] Jon, I didn't wanna repeat all you wrote because I just wanted to add that it was a great reply. I totally see where you and Barney are coming from... both yours and Barney's comments made absolutely perfect sense. I get the subtleties of a framework vs. a methodology and I now understand a lot better about how to go forward and implement what I'm looking for. This has been a great thread. Appreciate all the help tremendously. I think a Frameworks Overview needs to be added to the Max conference this year. Not a debate. Not a discussion or a Birds of a Feather... but a nice, healthy overview of the frameworks available to ColdFusion programmers, and their strengths and weaknesses as described by you and Barney. Dammit, I wish they were still taking submissions... ~| ColdFusion MX7 by Adobe® Dyncamically transform webcontent into Adobe PDF with new ColdFusion MX7. Free Trial. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJV Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276960 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
My opinion is that anything that works well for you is a framework. If you use consistent programming methods and well-written code that everyone can understand, then that's a framework. I have several custom tags that build my pages and content areas. I call that my own framework. Regarding all the future of web development. RIAs are nice. Personally, I'm into the request-response mode, with maybe a touch of AJAX. We are wanting our students to begin using mobile phones to access our web sites. Therefore, I can't rely on Flash-based forms in most cases. Not knocking Flex and some of the other new technologies, but it seems like most companies that really push RIAs and Flash are those companies that stand to personally benefit from that technology. I have never heard one student or faculty complain that we didn't build an RIA interface. In fact, most complain about buggy DHTML editors that don't work everywhere. So, the marketing of RIAs is fine, but I'm still at the point where I haven't seen the justification, or payoff, for the type of web development that I do. From what has been shared with the public, I can see more benefit from the back-end features of CF8. I can't wait to roll out a production web site with Scorpio! I wasn't picking on Jeff. I'm on his side. :-) M!ke -Original Message- From: Jeff Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 12:10 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks) You shouldn't have to explain why you love DW over Eclipse. DW is pretty darn awesome and I'm not scared to spread the word, either. I, too, live in DW code view and shun frameworks. Hi, I'm Mike and I'm a DreamWeaver user. I'm sorry. I honestly didn't want those comments to come across that way. I was just *really* wondering if what I wasn't already doing *was* in fact, a framework, and if, during the course of the way I and my group programs, is a framework worth looking into. I was merely trying to sort of set the stage for some people in the know to provide me with some honest, clear, advice. I'm starting to feel like we're all at a crucial turning point. RIAs, Flex, MXML, and AJAX, and now Adobe CS3. So you start to think, should I get CS3? or is this the time when I start to look at alternative ways to get the results we've been getting? I'm not shy about learning curves, or any of that. If a particular framework will work for me, and help me be a better programmer, then I'm on board... But what I'm most afraid of, is abandoning something that's worked so well for so long for something that just seems... I dunno... the flavor of the day maybe? I just see so many Framework discussions going on, and I see so many people advocating different frameworks, that I start to wonder if it's not the way to go, then I alternate back to the other side of the fence and think, no, it's worked really well for this long, and Adobe is still delivering us good versions of Dreamweaver, so perhaps I'll just stick with that. I REALLY wonder more than anything if I do my employer a disservice by not looking into these frameworks and methodologies, but when you start to go down that road, it just seems like there are too many decisions to make and too many ways to skin the same cat. But again, opinions are like... well... you know... so please don't take mine to heart. And I certainly was purposely trying to stay away from turning this discussion into a Dreamweaver vs. Frameworks pissing contest so sorry if it came across that way... I'm just genuinely interested in the discussion... ~| Macromedia ColdFusion MX7 Upgrade to MX7 experience time-saving features, more productivity. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJW Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276962 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
Regarding all the future of web development. RIAs are nice. Personally, I'm into the request-response mode, with maybe a touch of AJAX. We are wanting our students to begin using mobile phones to access our web sites. Therefore, I can't rely on Flash-based forms in most cases. Are you finding that you still need to customize your mobile interfaces anyway? At a certain point, if you have to build multiple interfaces, you might as well use RIAs for one, and simplified HTML for another. There are a lot of HTML interfaces that just don't work well on a phone. Not knocking Flex and some of the other new technologies, but it seems like most companies that really push RIAs and Flash are those companies that stand to personally benefit from that technology. That's what companies do. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! This email has been processed by SmoothZap - www.smoothwall.net ~| Macromedia ColdFusion MX7 Upgrade to MX7 experience time-saving features, more productivity. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJW Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276964 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
Are you finding that you still need to customize your mobile interfaces anyway? At a certain point, if you have to build multiple interfaces, you might as well use RIAs for one, and simplified HTML for another. There are a lot of HTML interfaces that just don't work well on a phone. Not quite sure yet. We are in the process of rebuilding a couple of our major sites. One site is held up due to committee. The other site is held up due to other projects. ;-) For now, I'm leaning towards having a separate, less-functional, site for mobile users. I haven't completely ruled out using mobile CSS, but there are some areas, on our intranet, that just don't work well with mobile regardless of the interface. M!ke ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 The most significant release in over 10 years. Upgrade see new features. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJR Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276966 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
With your background I am suprised you use DW, I would have thought Eclipse and SVN would be your bag. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Jeff Small To: CF-Talk Sent: Wed May 02 22:26:01 2007 Subject: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks) We've (our development team) been using Dreamweaver, and we use it internally for checking in/out documents. We write CFCs and utilize Dreamweaver's Components tab. We use store all of our most used code in snippets that we all share, and we're all trained Computer Science graduates (not designers or graphic artists who picked up web programming)... Why would we use a framework? What would be the benefit? I only ask because all of these framework discussions always leave me with the feeling of, hmmm... that sounds really 'neat' but with our workflow it seems really redundant... or perhaps better said, that seems like a lot of overhead to achieve what we already achieve pretty effortlessly... Is there something I'm missing from a framework that I don't get from simply utilizing all the tools available in Dreamweaver? Even Ajax, which gave me pause a few months ago, thinking, hmmm, now I *might* need a framework to implement some of these whiz-bang Ajax doo-hickeys now seems a thing of the past with Spry shipping with Dreamweaver CS3. Am I missing something? We don't re-write code. We re-use everything. It's all available in our snippet library, and our CFCs are constantly being reused. Is there something more that we could be doing with a framework that we're not able to do without it? I just thought it seemed like an appropriate question because of the framework threads that have been popping up all over the place lately... got me thinking and all... ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 The most significant release in over 10 years. Upgrade see new features. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJR Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276842 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
And surely, like most if not all CS grads you would have learned a design pattern in whatever OO language you were taught? A framework probably was shown as well, and it's benefits? This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Jeff Small To: CF-Talk Sent: Wed May 02 22:26:01 2007 Subject: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks) We've (our development team) been using Dreamweaver, and we use it internally for checking in/out documents. We write CFCs and utilize Dreamweaver's Components tab. We use store all of our most used code in snippets that we all share, and we're all trained Computer Science graduates (not designers or graphic artists who picked up web programming)... Why would we use a framework? What would be the benefit? I only ask because all of these framework discussions always leave me with the feeling of, hmmm... that sounds really 'neat' but with our workflow it seems really redundant... or perhaps better said, that seems like a lot of overhead to achieve what we already achieve pretty effortlessly... Is there something I'm missing from a framework that I don't get from simply utilizing all the tools available in Dreamweaver? Even Ajax, which gave me pause a few months ago, thinking, hmmm, now I *might* need a framework to implement some of these whiz-bang Ajax doo-hickeys now seems a thing of the past with Spry shipping with Dreamweaver CS3. Am I missing something? We don't re-write code. We re-use everything. It's all available in our snippet library, and our CFCs are constantly being reused. Is there something more that we could be doing with a framework that we're not able to do without it? I just thought it seemed like an appropriate question because of the framework threads that have been popping up all over the place lately... got me thinking and all... ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 The most significant release in over 10 years. Upgrade see new features. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJR Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276843 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
Hi Jeff, A very quick answer is that if i came and worked for your company would i know on the first day which snippets did what? Would I conform to your standards? Frameworks allow people to pick up code and run with it quickly and conform to rules set out with in the framework. HTH On 02/05/07, Jeff Small [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've (our development team) been using Dreamweaver, and we use it internally for checking in/out documents. We write CFCs and utilize Dreamweaver's Components tab. We use store all of our most used code in snippets that we all share, and we're all trained Computer Science graduates (not designers or graphic artists who picked up web programming)... Why would we use a framework? What would be the benefit? I only ask because all of these framework discussions always leave me with the feeling of, hmmm... that sounds really 'neat' but with our workflow it seems really redundant... or perhaps better said, that seems like a lot of overhead to achieve what we already achieve pretty effortlessly... Is there something I'm missing from a framework that I don't get from simply utilizing all the tools available in Dreamweaver? Even Ajax, which gave me pause a few months ago, thinking, hmmm, now I *might* need a framework to implement some of these whiz-bang Ajax doo-hickeys now seems a thing of the past with Spry shipping with Dreamweaver CS3. Am I missing something? We don't re-write code. We re-use everything. It's all available in our snippet library, and our CFCs are constantly being reused. Is there something more that we could be doing with a framework that we're not able to do without it? I just thought it seemed like an appropriate question because of the framework threads that have been popping up all over the place lately... got me thinking and all... ~| Create Web Applications With ColdFusion MX7 Flex 2. Build powerful, scalable RIAs. Free Trial http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJS Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276844 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
Most of the benefits from a framework (at least in my view) come from the bookkeeping that the framework takes care of automatically. For example, ColdSpring manages dependency injection, so I don't have to write any code to do that. ColdSpring also provides AOP functionality which provides a very nice way to wrap functionality around other existing functionality, and again, takes care of all the mundane accounting that is required to make that work. Similar examples exist for other frameworks. All the Front Controller frameworks provide configuration languages for the app (which you don't have to write), automated caching of execution plans (so you don't have to write them), a framework for managing intra-request state (so you don't have to write one), etc. Frameworks also provide consistency between applications. If I've worked on a FB5 app anywhere, chances are good I'll be able to switch to a different FB5 app (quite possibly at a different company in a different industry) and already understand that app to a very high degree. That's very valuable if you have a growing or rotating staff. In short, there's nothing you NEED a framework for, but there are a lot of smart developers out there, and I generally prefer to trust code that someone else wrote (and tested, exercised, and then released to a large community) over code that I wrote (with no other vetting). Especially for the mundane (but VERY important) glue bits. And this perspective has nothing to do with CF, it's global to programming, which is why there is such a huge affection for Spring, Struts, Hibernate, Tapestry, etc., etc. beyond CF's borders. It's worth mentioning also that your current framework/methodology seems effortless to you largely because you're very familiar with it, and understand all it's ins and outs. A new framework will automatically seem a lot more cumbersome initially, because you lack that familiarity with it. cheers, barneyb On 5/2/07, Jeff Small [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've (our development team) been using Dreamweaver, and we use it internally for checking in/out documents. We write CFCs and utilize Dreamweaver's Components tab. We use store all of our most used code in snippets that we all share, and we're all trained Computer Science graduates (not designers or graphic artists who picked up web programming)... Why would we use a framework? What would be the benefit? I only ask because all of these framework discussions always leave me with the feeling of, hmmm... that sounds really 'neat' but with our workflow it seems really redundant... or perhaps better said, that seems like a lot of overhead to achieve what we already achieve pretty effortlessly... Is there something I'm missing from a framework that I don't get from simply utilizing all the tools available in Dreamweaver? Even Ajax, which gave me pause a few months ago, thinking, hmmm, now I *might* need a framework to implement some of these whiz-bang Ajax doo-hickeys now seems a thing of the past with Spry shipping with Dreamweaver CS3. Am I missing something? We don't re-write code. We re-use everything. It's all available in our snippet library, and our CFCs are constantly being reused. Is there something more that we could be doing with a framework that we're not able to do without it? I just thought it seemed like an appropriate question because of the framework threads that have been popping up all over the place lately... got me thinking and all... -- Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.barneyb.com/ Got Gmail? I have 100 invites. ~| Macromedia ColdFusion MX7 Upgrade to MX7 experience time-saving features, more productivity. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJW Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276845 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
And atop they can also enforce design patterns which is no bad thing. This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Gateway House, 28 The Quadrant, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DN, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business, Registered in England, Number 678540. It contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error please return it to the sender or call our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910. The opinions expressed within this communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions. Visit our website at http://www.reedexpo.com -Original Message- From: Nick Tong To: CF-Talk Sent: Wed May 02 22:34:44 2007 Subject: Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks) Hi Jeff, A very quick answer is that if i came and worked for your company would i know on the first day which snippets did what? Would I conform to your standards? Frameworks allow people to pick up code and run with it quickly and conform to rules set out with in the framework. HTH On 02/05/07, Jeff Small [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've (our development team) been using Dreamweaver, and we use it internally for checking in/out documents. We write CFCs and utilize Dreamweaver's Components tab. We use store all of our most used code in snippets that we all share, and we're all trained Computer Science graduates (not designers or graphic artists who picked up web programming)... Why would we use a framework? What would be the benefit? I only ask because all of these framework discussions always leave me with the feeling of, hmmm... that sounds really 'neat' but with our workflow it seems really redundant... or perhaps better said, that seems like a lot of overhead to achieve what we already achieve pretty effortlessly... Is there something I'm missing from a framework that I don't get from simply utilizing all the tools available in Dreamweaver? Even Ajax, which gave me pause a few months ago, thinking, hmmm, now I *might* need a framework to implement some of these whiz-bang Ajax doo-hickeys now seems a thing of the past with Spry shipping with Dreamweaver CS3. Am I missing something? We don't re-write code. We re-use everything. It's all available in our snippet library, and our CFCs are constantly being reused. Is there something more that we could be doing with a framework that we're not able to do without it? I just thought it seemed like an appropriate question because of the framework threads that have been popping up all over the place lately... got me thinking and all... ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276848 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Can I ask a question? (RE: Frameworks)
On 5/2/07, Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With your background I am suprised you use DW, I would have thought Eclipse and SVN would be your bag. Considering they didn't include FLEX in dreamweaver CS3 I'm now starting to ask myselft the same thing. http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/web/features/allfeatures/ ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:276869 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
